MU is biggest spender in BIG EAST

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Not looking for an argument at all. Just noting that you used to make your points in a pretty straightforward manner and now you seem to be going the comedy/sarcasm route (see this thread and the one where you suggest Hayward go to Ames, IA and stab Christopherson in the face. Some people have a knack for comedy and some don't. Evidently I don't either since my post about you not giving up your day job was meant as a joke and you felt I was being confrontational.

Ehhh... you're probably right.

No need for all of the sarcasm, hyperbole (christopherson post) and whatnot. It doesn't play well over message boards anyways.

I'll be more straightforward:

There is an incredible double standard right now between Buzz Williams and the former MU coach.

I believe it exists because people "like" Buzz more, and therefore give him the benefit of the doubt on most things.

The problem with this is that evaluating a coach's ability and relative success has nothing to do with "liking" him.

There are several topics around here where Buzz is simply given a free pass because he isn't tan. I'm disappointed by that.

[Hards Alumni]

I wish you were less surprised and expected less of people.  Especially on a message board. 

That said, if TC and IU were tearing up the B10, I think people might have a different impression of TC.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I wish you were less surprised and expected less of people.  Especially on a message board. 

That said, if TC and IU were tearing up the B10, I think people might have a different impression of TC.

Well, you're probably right. Anonymity probably breeds stupidity to a certain extent.

I just know that there is a lot of fist ringing that John Dodds is just a puppet for MU. This board represented a sort of "agenda-free" zone.

Well, I'm coming to the stark realization that people don't just have personal biases (we all have that), but some people have specific agendas when it comes to the topics they chose to post about.

[4everwarriors]

Yes, Buzz is more likable. He appears to not be not self-centered, arrogant, and egotistical. This all washes well with the common folk. His basketball IQ seems very good also and his recruiting, thus far, is an improvement over the last coach. Although, I'll reserve final judgment on that citing inadequate sample size. He still needs some BE caliper bigmen. Finally, Buzz is still on his MU honeymoon. All coaches, regardless of the sport, must be judged on their record, and in particular, their post season record. So, we will see how Buzz Williams will eventually grade out.
Crean, on the other hand, irritates a lot of us in so many ways. He had the good fortune  early on of Wade exploding resulting in both fame and $$$ for the coach. Hay brings up an interesting question as to where Crean would be right now had Wade not played for him. In response, my guess would be that Tom would likely be coaching at a lesser D1 school, getting very little exposure, and certainly less salary.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes, Buzz is more likable. He appears to not be not self-centered, arrogant, and egotistical. This all washes well with the common folk.

I agree... but realistically, so what? I watch MU hoops. I don't have dinner with the coach every night. Win. Win cleanly. Win often.


His basketball IQ seems very good also and his recruiting, thus far, is an improvement over the last coach. I want to agree with this, but I probably need to see how good Junior and Vander turn out before I can go all in. TC did recruit some very good players.

Although, I'll reserve final judgment on that citing inadequate sample size. He still needs some BE caliper bigmen. Agree.


Finally, Buzz is still on his MU honeymoon. All coaches, regardless of the sport, must be judged on their record, and in particular, their post season record. So, we will see how Buzz Williams will eventually grade out.

I actually disagree somewhat here. Winning is important, but the postseason in college hoops is such a crapshoot sometimes that I don't put a ton of stock into it. A winning program and a winning coach will eventually win in the tournament. A couple of upsets aren't going to have me calling for his job.

Crean, on the other hand, irritates a lot of us in so many ways. He had the good fortune  early on of Wade exploding resulting in both fame and $$$ for the coach. Hay brings up an interesting question as to where Crean would be right now had Wade not played for him. In response, my guess would be that Tom would likely be coaching at a lesser D1 school, getting very little exposure, and certainly less salary.

This is a terrible hypothetical because he did recruit wade and did land wade, so it doesn't f-ing matter. Why are you guys always trying to take things away from TC?

What if Al never landed GT? Would he have toiled away at MU for a few years and then been fired?

What if Buzz didn't get Jimmy Butler? Would he be on the hotseat right now?

What if KO didn't get lucky and have great in state talent the years he was coaching? What if UW was a good program back then, would KO have been able to land those guys?

BLAH BLAH BLAH

None of these matter.

[Lennys Tap]

The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.

[mu-rara]

2002,

What exactly is your connection to Crean?  There must be one.   You usually only post to protect his legacy.  Maybe if I understood your connection, I'd understand your absolute, over the top, Creanlove.

My stance on Crean, I hope, is somewhat more balanced.  I think he did wonders for MU, for all the obvious reasons.  He took a perceived (by him) step up.  Wonderful.  I think he may have seen the writing on the wall with some crappy recruiting after the 3 Amigos, but this happens in the business world all the time.

My biggest complaint was signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2 years.  That contract was a strong commitment by MU, and he pissed all over it.

By the way, Al wasn't a one trick pony.  He had top 10 recruits almost every year.  TC may have been the most successful coach since Al, but long term, there is no comparison.

I liked KO because he won...his baggage wasn't well known until he left.  I'm pretty sure he wishes he would have stayed (and been less of a slime bag)

I liked catching a beer with Deano, he was alot of fun.  Pretty good coach, but didn't recruit worth a darn.  Crean was a big upgrade. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.

Ok, so what if Al didn't land Benard Toone and/or Butch Lee and Bo Ellis.

He would have been terrible, right?

My point is that these hypotheticals are are silly, and really don't "prove" anything.

Strip the best player(s) away from any coach, and they won't have as good of a record. Shocker.

Of course Wade helped Crean make it to the big time. Nobody in their right mind could ever deny that. But, the speculation of where Crean would be without Wade is just stupid.

Where would Novak and Deiner be without Wade? Should we start a thread about that?  

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, Buzz is more likable. He appears to not be not self-centered, arrogant, and egotistical. This all washes well with the common folk. His basketball IQ seems very good also and his recruiting, thus far, is an improvement over the last coach. Although, I'll reserve final judgment on that citing inadequate sample size. He still needs some BE caliper bigmen. Finally, Buzz is still on his MU honeymoon. All coaches, regardless of the sport, must be judged on their record, and in particular, their post season record. So, we will see how Buzz Williams will eventually grade out.
Crean, on the other hand, irritates a lot of us in so many ways. He had the good fortune  early on of Wade exploding resulting in both fame and $$$ for the coach. Hay brings up an interesting question as to where Crean would be right now had Wade not played for him. In response, my guess would be that Tom would likely be coaching at a lesser D1 school, getting very little exposure, and certainly less salary.

It's just a dumb analysis because Wade DID play for him.  Wade DID go to MU.  It's like saying where would UCLA be if Kareem didn't go there, would they have won 7 straight NCAA titles, would they have landed Bill Walton, etc,.  No.  But Kareem DID go there.  What would Bill Walsh be like if Joe Montana didn't go there?  How many yards does Emmitt Smith gain if he was on the Seahawks?  How great a career would Len Bias have if he wasn't doing blow that night and died?

And no, I'm not comparing Crean to Wooden.    But this constant bullcrap about it was all Wade, blah, blah, blah.  You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube fellas, he DID go to MU, he DID choose to play for CREAN, and we DID do well as a result.  And we did well after Wade left also.

And IU will be fine in another year (assuming injuries, etc don't kill them again).   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

2002,

What exactly is your connection to Crean?  There must be one.   You usually only post to protect his legacy.  Maybe if I understood your connection, I'd understand your absolute, over the top, Creanlove.

My stance on Crean, I hope, is somewhat more balanced.  I think he did wonders for MU, for all the obvious reasons.  He took a perceived (by him) step up.  Wonderful.  I think he may have seen the writing on the wall with some crappy recruiting after the 3 Amigos, but this happens in the business world all the time.

My biggest complaint was signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2 years.  That contract was a strong commitment by MU, and he pissed all over it.

By the way, Al wasn't a one trick pony.  He had top 10 recruits almost every year.  TC may have been the most successful coach since Al, but long term, there is no comparison.

I liked KO because he won...his baggage wasn't well known until he left.  I'm pretty sure he wishes he would have stayed (and been less of a slime bag)

I liked catching a beer with Deano, he was alot of fun.  Pretty good coach, but didn't recruit worth a darn.  Crean was a big upgrade. 

Let me be as clear as possible here:

I'm not "defending" TC in this thread. I've done it in the past, but that is definitely not my intention here.

I'm calling out the posters who used to roast MU's coach whenever they were given a chance, and now let everything slide because they "like" Buzz.

Have some nuts (and consistency), gentleman! If you were on the attack about everything under the sun before (budget, cars, radio show, style, press conferences), where are you now?

Buzz's suits look expensive. He must be a douche.
Buzz drives a Caddy. His ego is too big.
Buzz sounded bad on the radio show. His personality sucks.

Let's go boys, let 'er rip!

[mu-rara]

Let me be as clear as possible here:

I'm not "defending" TC in this thread. I've done it in the past, but that is definitely not my intention here.

I'm calling out the posters who used to roast MU's coach whenever they were given a chance, and now let everything slide because they "like" Buzz.

Have some nuts (and consistency), gentleman! If you were on the attack about everything under the sun before (budget, cars, radio show, style, press conferences), where are you now?

Buzz's suits look expensive. He must be a douche.
Buzz drives a Caddy. His ego is too big.
Buzz sounded bad on the radio show. His personality sucks.

Let's go boys, let 'er rip!

I hope there is more to Buzz's support than "liking" him.  He did well with TC's players.  He has recruited well.  He is exceeding expectations with an inexperienced team.  All positives.

I am not ready to annoint him the end all.  He needs to earn that over the longer term.  He sure has done well in the short term.

I "liked" KO (I met him once) because he won.  I liked Mike Deane because he was an affable, funny guy.  I shed no tears when he was fired.  The program was going nowhere.

Again I ask, what is the root of your support for Crean?  You let no perceived slight go by (and Chicos is right behind)

[bma725]

The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.

DePaul did recruit Wade.  They offered him but told him he wouldn't play much until his junior because of the depth of the team.  While he was deciding whether or not that was good enough, they got a commitment from Imari Sawyer(a McD's AA) which meant they had no more scholarships available, and their administration wouldn't let them take a commit with no scholarship available.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I hope there is more to Buzz's support than "liking" him.  He did well with TC's players.  He has recruited well.  He is exceeding expectations with an inexperienced team.  All positives.

I am not ready to annoint him the end all.  He needs to earn that over the longer term.  He sure has done well in the short term.

I "liked" KO (I met him once) because he won.  I liked Mike Deane because he was an affable, funny guy.  I shed no tears when he was fired.  The program was going nowhere.

Again I ask, what is the root of your support for Crean?  You let no perceived slight go by (and Chicos is right behind)

I have no connection to him, and I assure you that there are hundreds of "slights" that go by without my commentary.

Admittedly in the past I've been baited into some threads and debates re: Crean. Often time Chico's and I are labeled as "defenders" because I didn't rip on Crean for driving a yellow hummer, and I call out posters who get pissed about that type of stuff.

In my mind, TC wasn't perfect, and there were certainly some things you can rip on him for. But, it seemed like people were taking anything/everything and using it against him. I thought it was stupid, and I said as much.

Now, a lot of those posters have gone silent when the same type of issues come up. Where's all of the outrage now?

Buzz used a limo to recruit a player. He's a terrible person.

[LON]

Now, a lot of those posters have gone silent when the same type of issues come up. Where's all of the outrage now?

Buzz used a limo to recruit a player. He's a terrible person.

That's because it runs on E-85

[muwarrior87]

That's because it runs on E-85

Don't get me started on how we're using a major food supply (corn and corn byproducts are in everything) to fuel America's cars while driving up the cost of food.  (if it was algae based E-85, I have no problem)

[MUBurrow]

I think maybe a reason the spending has hit a nerve in the Buzz - TC fiasco is because there was a certain amount of trust MU fans put in TC and many of us still feel was betrayed.  Not the typical college coach stuff, but lifestyle/image - wise.  

TC was personality-wise as far from Al as you could get, and we all sensed it.  There was a certain amount of deal-with-the-devil, learn to love TC that we found easier once we started winning.  Then the orange tan that would've made Al shudder became a little more okay, and soon he was "our guy."  But the combination of his image and being a private school was still unsettling to a lot of the MU fans who embraced the more Milwaukee blue collar throwback perspective.

Then he leaves and we all look around and feel betrayed because this guy we had learned to love and identify with was gone.  Thats where Buzz's likeability comes in.  He reminds particularly older MU alums of when we were uptown people again, at least a little.  His aw-shucks... ness reminds MU of kegs in the urinals and embraces that little bit of inferiority complex, underdog mentality we all embrace and love about Marquette.  So even if Buzz does drive an Escalade, he doesn't seem to wear that wealthy high spending image on his sleeve, an image that blue collar MU fans are (maybe rightfully) hyper-sensitive about.  At least there aren't orange tans and just a general aura of $$ like TC seemed to embody.  MU doesn't feel as uneasy about embracing him.

PS: Sorry if I stepped on any toes by trying to generalize the MU fan base.  I am a younger alum so it probably isn't fair of me to say what I perceive Warriors fans were like before I was even born; but misconceived or not, its sort of what I've come to appreciate and identify with as far as history.  But at the end of the day its nothing more than my misguided interpretation.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think maybe a reason the spending has hit a nerve in the Buzz - TC fiasco is because there was a certain amount of trust MU fans put in TC and many of us still feel was betrayed.  Not the typical college coach stuff, but lifestyle/image - wise.  

TC was personality-wise as far from Al as you could get, and we all sensed it.  There was a certain amount of deal-with-the-devil, learn to love TC that we found easier once we started winning.  Then the orange tan that would've made Al shudder became a little more okay, and soon he was "our guy."  But the combination of his image and being a private school was still unsettling to a lot of the MU fans who embraced the more Milwaukee blue collar throwback perspective.

Then he leaves and we all look around and feel betrayed because this guy we had learned to love and identify with was gone.  Thats where Buzz's likeability comes in.  He reminds particularly older MU alums of when we were uptown people again, at least a little.  His aw-shucks... ness reminds MU of kegs in the urinals and embraces that little bit of inferiority complex, underdog mentality we all embrace and love about Marquette.  So even if Buzz does drive an Escalade, he doesn't seem to wear that wealthy high spending image on his sleeve, an image that blue collar MU fans are (maybe rightfully) hyper-sensitive about.  At least there aren't orange tans and just a general aura of $$ like TC seemed to embody.  MU doesn't feel as uneasy about embracing him.

PS: Sorry if I stepped on any toes by trying to generalize the MU fan base.  I am a younger alum so it probably isn't fair of me to say what I perceive Warriors fans were like before I was even born; but misconceived or not, its sort of what I've come to appreciate and identify with as far as history.  But at the end of the day its nothing more than my misguided interpretation.

I agree with everything you say here. I do find Buzz to be very likable.

My only point in this whole thing is that "likability" shouldn't have much to do with how we evaluate a coach.

All coaches should be evaluated equally.

[Lennys Tap]

Let me be as clear as possible here:

I'm not "defending" TC in this thread. I've done it in the past, but that is definitely not my intention here.

I'm calling out the posters who used to roast MU's coach whenever they were given a chance, and now let everything slide because they "like" Buzz.

Have some nuts (and consistency), gentleman! If you were on the attack about everything under the sun before (budget, cars, radio show, style, press conferences), where are you now?

Buzz's suits look expensive. He must be a douche.
Buzz drives a Caddy. His ego is too big.
Buzz sounded bad on the radio show. His personality sucks.

Let's go boys, let 'er rip!

I think you're missing the point. People don't dislike Crean because of his tan, his ties or the car that he drives. They dislike him because they they think he's a phony who treats people he can't use poorly. If Buzz proves to share these character flaws (no evidence of that so far) people will dislike him and make fun of him like they do TC.

[MU B2002]

My only point in this whole thing is that "likability" shouldn't have much to do with how we evaluate a coach.

All coaches should be evaluated equally.

I have said this in the past regarding some of your "brett favre/packer fan" feelings related posts...

You are asking society to behave in a manner that, while fair and just, will never happen.


Sorry.

[The Lens]

Where would Novak and Deiner be without Wade? Should we start a thread about that?  

Answer: The NBA.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think you're missing the point. People don't dislike Crean because of his tan, his ties or the car that he drives. They dislike him because they they think he's a phony who treats people he can't use poorly. If Buzz proves to share these character flaws (no evidence of that so far) people will dislike him and make fun of him like they do TC.

I understand what you are saying, but for me personally, it seemed like everything the guy did was used against him.

If Crean uses a limo, it's because he has a huge ego.

If buzz uses a limo, it's because it's a good recruiting technique.

I can't get over stuff like that.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Answer: The NBA.

I doubt that. Crean would have messed them up. 

Wade made them.

[Hards Alumni]

I just have one question.

Who wants to sex Mutombo?

[ChicosBailBonds]

The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.

But that ignores the big time competition we had for Novak, James, Matthews, McNeal, etc.   You guys seem to want to make one argument for one player and ignore that very argument for other players.

The thing that absolutely drives me crazy is the complete double standard hypocrisy that is applied here and the only reason it's applied is because the guy didn't have a beer or pissed someone off.

At the end of the day, we won and we won BIG and we went places we haven't gone in 3 decades.  And we did it cleanly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't get me started on how we're using a major food supply (corn and corn byproducts are in everything) to fuel America's cars while driving up the cost of food.  (if it was algae based E-85, I have no problem)

+1, but that's for another day.