MU is biggest spender in BIG EAST

[Lennys Tap]

I understand what you are saying, but for me personally, it seemed like everything the guy did was used against him.

If Crean uses a limo, it's because he has a huge ego.

If buzz uses a limo, it's because it's a good recruiting technique.

I can't get over stuff like that.

Here's an example: Two preachers. One you find honest and sincere (think Billy Graham, maybe). The other you find cynical and self aggrandizing (think Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert, maybe). The phonies are ridiculed for everything including their suits and cars. The honest and sincere guy, not so much.

[MUBurrow]

I agree with everything you say here. I do find Buzz to be very likable.

My only point in this whole thing is that "likability" shouldn't have much to do with how we evaluate a coach.

All coaches should be evaluated equally.

Generally I think thats true, but in this case I honestly don't know what I think.  Its funny to say, but I think there are a lot of cases where I would rather like my coach than win a couple of extra games with him.  College sports get into this particularly: Tubby Smith v.  Calipari, Fulmer v. Kiffin, early 00's Paterno v... someone else?  When you consider the identity of a school, the kind of person that leads a program, I think there's more of a give and take there, and honestly judgments by the fan base don't need to be fair and unbiased.  If Buzz conducts himself in a certain way that he doesn't use all of his slack being a dislikeable person, fans and boosters are okay with him spending more.  There is a finite amount of goodwill that can be used in a lot of ways.  However I do agree that the only way to increase that goodwill is winning.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Here's an example: Two preachers. One you find honest and sincere (think Billy Graham, maybe). The other you find cynical and self aggrandizing (think Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert, maybe). The phonies are ridiculed for everything including their suits and cars. Te honest and sincere guy, not so much.

How about this one:

I like Brett Favre, he's just a winner, so I believe in him.

I hate Aaron Rodgers, and I think his haircut sucks and his ego is through the roof. He'll never be Brett Favre. What a poser.


Is that ok to say? It sounds idiotic... but it's similar to what you are getting at, right?

[Lennys Tap]

But that ignores the big time competition we had for Novak, James, Matthews, McNeal, etc.   You guys seem to want to make one argument for one player and ignore that very argument for other players.

The thing that absolutely drives me crazy is the complete double standard hypocrisy that is applied here and the only reason it's applied is because the guy didn't have a beer or pissed someone off.

At the end of the day, we won and we won BIG and we went places we haven't gone in 3 decades.  And we didn't cleanly.

I give full credit to TC for getting Deiner, Novak, James, McNeal and Matthews. I also give him credit for running a clean program with high graduation rates. He was a tireless worker promoting himself and Marquette U. I don't know how much of this would have happened had Wade not fallen into his lap, but I'm greatful he caught him and convinced Fr Wild to take a chance on him. I rooted for him and MU with all my heart. I defended him against his critics. This grew increasingly difficult over time as "his character was revealed" (sorry to steal a Buzz line). But I held my nose and cheered nonetheless. I'm just happy I don't have to hold my nose anymore.

[Lennys Tap]

How about this one:

I like Brett Favre, he's just a winner, so I believe in him.

I hate Aaron Rodgers, and I think his haircut sucks and his ego is through the roof. He'll never be Brett Favre. What a poser.


Is that ok to say? It sounds idiotic... but it's similar to what you are getting at, right?

No and yes. No, it's not ok and similar to what I was getting at and yes, it sounds idiotic.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No and yes. No, it's not ok and similar to what I was getting at and yes, it sounds idiotic.

Alright. No problem.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.


To sum up my stance (straight forward posting 101):

I think a lot of the personal criticism of TC was uncalled for. It seemed like people with an agenda trying to stoke some embers.

Now that the same critiques are not offered for Buzz Williams, it cements my previous belief.

[4everwarriors]

The only common ground Crean and McGuire shared was they both loved to talk. One, is shallow, insincere, and completely unbelievable. The other had the absolute best mouthpiece I've ever heard. His wit and wisdom was something the rich, poor, educated or not could both understand and relate to. This in part was a reason for his enormous success a a recruiter. Crean can't carry his jockstrap. Times were different then, but Al sealed the deal year after year with the top recruits. Crean got only DJ, Jerel, and Wes after Wade.
As far as getting the toothpaste back in the tube, I'm still working on that one.

[StillAWarrior]

Where would Novak and Deiner be without Wade? Should we start a thread about that?  

What the heck, I'll ask:  Where would Wade be without Diener?

Probably in the same place, but without Diener "carrying" the team through the first two rounds in 2003, Wade wouldn't have had the same kind of publicity going into the draft.  I wonder if that would have cost Wade some draft positions.

[Lennys Tap]

What the heck, I'll ask:  Where would Wade be without Diener?

Probably in the same place, but without Diener "carrying" the team through the first two rounds in 2003, Wade wouldn't have had the same kind of publicity going into the draft.  I wonder if that would have cost Wade some draft positions.

If Wade doesn't get to play vs Pitt and Kentucky he goes later in the draft. Maybe even a slight chance he  stays at MU one more year. Not likely though.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here's an example: Two preachers. One you find honest and sincere (think Billy Graham, maybe). The other you find cynical and self aggrandizing (think Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert, maybe). The phonies are ridiculed for everything including their suits and cars. The honest and sincere guy, not so much.

Interesting analogy, but I'd say not germane. 

I'd prefer a coaching one.  I've known coaches that were some of the biggest assholes on the planet, but they won.  While others were nice guys but didn't win as much.

This is a results oriented business.  I hope we got the guy that is nice and wins (Mike Scioscia, John Wooden, etc).  But if I have to pick nice guy and wins some of the time vs complete jerk that wins more and takes us to the places we don't go, I'm going with the latter.

Just the way it is.  Win, do it cleanly, put a few guys into the pros, don't have players on the police blotter, make sure the kids are passing classes, and no NCAA violations.   That's already a lot to ask, if he's a douche in the process....so be it.  If he's a wonderful human being, fantastic and much more preferable.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The only common ground Crean and McGuire shared was they both loved to talk. One, is shallow, insincere, and completely unbelievable. The other had the absolute best mouthpiece I've ever heard. His wit and wisdom was something the rich, poor, educated or not could both understand and relate to. This in part was a reason for his enormous success a a recruiter. Crean can't carry his jockstrap. Times were different then, but Al sealed the deal year after year with the top recruits. Crean got only DJ, Jerel, and Wes after Wade.
As far as getting the toothpaste back in the tube, I'm still working on that one.

Why are we comparing TC to AL to begin with?  They're two totally different people from a different age and a different situation.

At the end of the day, they both won.  No one is going to be AL, whether it's charisma or what he did on the court.  Of course he can't carry his jockstrap, neither could anyone else in the program or 99% of other coaches in America.

At the end of the day, what we accomplished in the last 10 years is better than what we've done in the previous 25 years and we did it the right way.  I'd just like to see us continue that, whether it's Buzz (I hope it is) or someone else, just keep winning, keep going to the NCAAs, keep kids off the police blotter, no NCAA issues, no grades issues and hopefully a deep run every so often.

My bigger concern is that as much as TC couldn't hold Al's jock, we haven't had anyone else in our history other than Al that could hold TC's jock...on the court that is.  For as much of an pretty boy that he was, he got results. 

I expect similar results from his successor(s).