NFC North Intelligent, Civilized Discussion 09/10 season

[GOMU1104]

Good thing JayBoy missed my comments early in the year about how the Packers "really dont have any holes."  Swing and a miss on that one...but who's counting?   

I think GB is in a good position for one of the Wild Card spots, as long as they dont Sh*t the bed down the stretch.  Going 3-2 in the last 5 weeks should get the job done.

It will be interesting to see how things play out in the NFCE, with DAL/PHI/NYG.  They all play each other in the last 5 weeks.

[Jay Bee]

Good thing JayBoy missed my comments early in the year about how the Packers "really dont have any holes."  Swing and a miss on that one...but who's counting?   

It will be interesting to see how things play out in the NFCE, with DAL/PHI/NYG.  They all play each other in the last 5 weeks.

  A comprehensive list of dumb comments from that thread would have gone on for 19 pages; I was just providing a small sample.  Plus, Packers love when people pay attention to their holes... no need to give 'em the 'satisfaction'.

  I'm just not sure if any of those teams want it.. just a lot of mediocre teams, several awful teams, and two extraordinarily great teams in NFC.  Doesn't meant I won't be freaked come playoff time.. but no complaints so far this year. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I wouldn't be too smug JB.

Remember, some of the experts here knew Favre would start the season well, but would eventually crash in the second half of the year.

So far, those people are right. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Good thing JayBoy missed my comments early in the year about how the Packers "really dont have any holes."  Swing and a miss on that one...but who's counting?   

To your credit, you weren't that far off.

The Packers are still one of the better offenses and defenses in the league (statistically).

I think consistency (offensive line play specifically) and special teams are really hurting the Packers... and in your defense, it's awfully hard for a fan to predict that the special teams will be good or bad.

[Moonboots]

I wouldn't be too smug JB.

Remember, some of the experts here knew Favre would start the season well, but would eventually crash in the second half of the year.

So far, those people are right. 

It's just a really, REALLY long beginning to the year.. right?

[GOMU1104]

To your credit, you weren't that far off.

The Packers are still one of the better offenses and defenses in the league (statistically).

I think consistency (offensive line play specifically) and special teams are really hurting the Packers... and in your defense, it's awfully hard for a fan to predict that the special teams will be good or bad.

I was mainly referring to the O-Line...didnt think it would be this big of a problem.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

It's just a really, REALLY long beginning to the year.. right?

Well, he could still pee down his leg in the last few games... but I'm betting against it.

Football is obviously a complex game, but Brett's success can probably be boiled down to a few things:

1. He's healthy (or at least healthy enough to play well)

2. He knows the offense inside and out, which helps him be a coach on the field

3. (this is the biggest one) He routinely sees 8 and sometimes 9 man fronts (even in some 3rd downs), and that makes it easy for him to "pitch and catch" with the receivers. I'm not saying this to diminish what he has been able to do, I'm saying it because I think he's accurate and can play smart when he doesn't have to carry an offense. The Bears committed to stopping the run, which made MN pass happy, but it worked well because the Bears just aren't that good and it's not that hard for Favre to throw against 8 man fronts.

In GB, teams were routinely trying to disrupt Brett, or make it hard on him. (heavy pass coverage, exotic blitz packages, etc.).
In MN, he's seeing a lot of the same defensive sets because there aren't that many ways to stop the run other than just moving players closer to the ball (ie bring more guys than they can block).

2 receivers and a TE vs 1 safety and 2 DBs = good odds for Brett. Now, when they add Harvin in the slot, it makes it even tougher on teams (cover harvin with a safety? with a LB?)

[Hards Alumni]

Well, he could still pee down his leg in the last few games... but I'm betting against it.

Football is obviously a complex game, but Brett's success can probably be boiled down to a few things:

1. He's healthy (or at least healthy enough to play well)

2. He knows the offense inside and out, which helps him be a coach on the field

3. (this is the biggest one) He routinely sees 8 and sometimes 9 man fronts (even in some 3rd downs), and that makes it easy for him to "pitch and catch" with the receivers. I'm not saying this to diminish what he has been able to do, I'm saying it because I think he's accurate and can play smart when he doesn't have to carry an offense. The Bears committed to stopping the run, which made MN pass happy, but it worked well because the Bears just aren't that good and it's not that hard for Favre to throw against 8 man fronts.

In GB, teams were routinely trying to disrupt Brett, or make it hard on him. (heavy pass coverage, exotic blitz packages, etc.).
In MN, he's seeing a lot of the same defensive sets because there aren't that many ways to stop the run other than just moving players closer to the ball (ie bring more guys than they can block).

2 receivers and a TE vs 1 safety and 2 DBs = good odds for Brett. Now, when they add Harvin in the slot, it makes it even tougher on teams (cover harvin with a safety? with a LB?)

well said.  I'd say that is a great analysis of why the Vikes are winning games, and winning big.

GB did their best to stop the run, and Brett threw all over him.  The other option is to drop guys back into coverage or play a lot of nickel and hope your front guys are better than the Vikes stellar O-line, and AP... which most of the time isn't going to happen.

I'd say that GB and MN are a lot alike except that GB lacks the Oline and stud RB that MN has... though GB has an advantage at WR and TE talent.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'd say that GB and MN are a lot alike except that GB lacks the Oline and stud RB that MN has... though GB has an advantage at WR and TE talent.

I agree with that.

I also think MN has a significant advantage in special teams, which plays a big role in turning a "good team" (GB) into a "great team" (MN).

I would also add that MN's defensive line is better, but the Packers secondary (with harris) is probably a little better (woodson is insane right now).

[Sir Lawrence]

I agree with that.

I also think MN has a significant advantage in special teams, which plays a big role in turning a "good team" (GB) into a "great team" (MN).

I would also add that MN's defensive line is better, but the Packers secondary (with harris) is probably a little better (woodson is insane right now).

Harris had ACL surgery on Monday of this week. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Harris had ACL surgery on Monday of this week. 

Right, so I'd say that the Packers secondary is a little bit of an unknown right now.

I think Tramon Williams can play, but obviously that shortens the bench and with effect the nickel packages.

[Jay Bee]

Remember, some of the experts here knew Favre would start the season well, but would eventually crash in the second half of the year.

So far, those people are right. 

  You don't need to apologize for our team being great, bud.  We just wrapped up the third of four months of the season (i.e., November represents the second half of the season)... if this is crashing, keep it coming, Brett!!! 

Consensus Vikings quarterback Brett Favre has been named the named the NFC offensive player of the month for November after leading the Vikings to a 4-0 record and completing 91 of 130 passes (70%) for 1,193 yards, 12 touchdowns and no interceptions with a passer rating of 129.4. 

[Hards Alumni]

3. Minnesota
Combined record of the nine teams they've defeated this season: 39-71. Let's give them 2009 Winston Wolf Memorial "Don't Start Sucking Each Other's Popsicles Yet" status. On the flip side, I like them because they can rush the hell out of the passer and get big plays at any time from three different guys (Peterson, Rice and Harvin). That's a solid formula for indoors, and they might not have to play a playoff game outside until Super Bowl XLIV. On the flip side of the flip side, Favre is 40 years old (and needs to stay healthy for eight more games), Brad Childress is Brad Childress, and the history of the Vikings speaks for itself. Just a lot going on here.

Back to what we started in Green Bay's section: I hate to use the word "victim" with sports, because after all, it's just sports. It's the playground of life. But considering how much Favre meant to everyone in Wisconsin, what happened this season was borderline cruel. He's playing out of his mind. He's an MVP candidate. He's playing so well that I am getting impassioned e-mails from Packers fans pointing out that if an aging, past-his-prime, 40-year-old pitcher were suddenly 19-2 in late August with 225 K's (the baseball equivalent to what Favre has done so far), the HGH jokes and rumors would be flying, but with Favre, the consensus seems to be, "He's having fun out there!"

(Note: I don't agree with this. I think that Minnesota has just had an extraordinarily easy schedule and that Favre has more offensive weapons than he's ever had at any point in his career. But whatever.)

Anyway, if this Pack-Vikes playoff game happens, it's the toughest call for the Sports Gods in years. If Green Bay loses to Favre a third time, they would have to shut down the state for a week so everyone could regroup. If Minnesota blows a home playoff game to Favre's old team Gary Anderson/Darrin Nelson-style, same thing. In other words, the stakes are too high. The last time we were here? 2003. A Red Sox-Cubs World Series looming. The Sports Gods freaked out. They couldn't handle it. Bartman/Alou/Gonzalez and Grady/Pedro/Boone happened. I can see the same thing happening this time. Green Bay falls to the sixth seed (or misses the playoffs), the Saints keep the No. 1 seed, something -- anything! -- to prevent a third Favre-Packers game that would be bigger than all of us. And that's why it can't happen.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

3. Minnesota
Combined record of the nine teams they've defeated this season: 39-71. Let's give them 2009 Winston Wolf Memorial "Don't Start Sucking Each Other's Popsicles Yet" status. On the flip side, I like them because they can rush the hell out of the passer and get big plays at any time from three different guys (Peterson, Rice and Harvin). That's a solid formula for indoors, and they might not have to play a playoff game outside until Super Bowl XLIV. On the flip side of the flip side, Favre is 40 years old (and needs to stay healthy for eight more games), Brad Childress is Brad Childress, and the history of the Vikings speaks for itself. Just a lot going on here.

Back to what we started in Green Bay's section: I hate to use the word "victim" with sports, because after all, it's just sports. It's the playground of life. But considering how much Favre meant to everyone in Wisconsin, what happened this season was borderline cruel. He's playing out of his mind. He's an MVP candidate. He's playing so well that I am getting impassioned e-mails from Packers fans pointing out that if an aging, past-his-prime, 40-year-old pitcher were suddenly 19-2 in late August with 225 K's (the baseball equivalent to what Favre has done so far), the HGH jokes and rumors would be flying, but with Favre, the consensus seems to be, "He's having fun out there!"

(Note: I don't agree with this. I think that Minnesota has just had an extraordinarily easy schedule and that Favre has more offensive weapons than he's ever had at any point in his career. But whatever.)

Anyway, if this Pack-Vikes playoff game happens, it's the toughest call for the Sports Gods in years. If Green Bay loses to Favre a third time, they would have to shut down the state for a week so everyone could regroup. If Minnesota blows a home playoff game to Favre's old team Gary Anderson/Darrin Nelson-style, same thing. In other words, the stakes are too high. The last time we were here? 2003. A Red Sox-Cubs World Series looming. The Sports Gods freaked out. They couldn't handle it. Bartman/Alou/Gonzalez and Grady/Pedro/Boone happened. I can see the same thing happening this time. Green Bay falls to the sixth seed (or misses the playoffs), the Saints keep the No. 1 seed, something -- anything! -- to prevent a third Favre-Packers game that would be bigger than all of us. And that's why it can't happen.

I wish Simmons would quit hedging his bets and just say that the Vikings are the best team in the league.

[Moonboots]

PXILibero: "I have enough faith in the fact that I scout every NFL team - starting with the NFC North, then the rest of the conference and beyond - to know that I dwarf what you know about football tenfold.....

Specifically, how a thirty nine year old quarterback with a surgically repaired biceps and a torn rotator cuff who did no offseason work with your team is a better option than a young, growing quarterback.  The only direction Favre can go is south.  This dink and dunk crap that we saw last night will work just fine against the hapless Texans D and their tackle-missing tendencies, but when he's forced to go over the top and "make a play out there", you're going to see him throw away some games for you, and I'm going to enjoy every minute of it."

I'll have to eat some crow.  I was wrong about Favre.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised though.  I grew up watching the guy do things that had no business being done, and I guess you can add being 40 years old and coming in entirely physically unprepared and then lighting up the league to that list.  Now what remains to be seen is if the playoff meltdowns of the last decade have gone along with it.

As far as the football knowledge, well... other than being off a bit on Matt Ryan, everything else I said about the NFC has been pretty spot on, especially that if Gregg Williams' pressure 4-3 can create turnovers, the Saints will be the force of the conference.  And the Packers, while down in the second tier due to the unforeseen resurgence of Favre, are still 7-4 and in great position to make the playoffs. 

[mu_hilltopper]

As a Viking fan, I can tell you this: Mid way through the 2nd quarter of the Cards v. Vikings game .. that's the moment all Super Bowl dreams should be halted for Minnesota.    Yes, yes, we may make it to NO for the NFC title game, but book that as a loss.

I've seen this movie before.

[MUEng92]

I wish I would not have turned the game back on just in time to see the replay of EJ Henderson's foot turned the wrong way.  Nasty!

[SaintPaulWarrior]

E.J.'s injury did not look good at all.  Theismann like.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Terrible game by the Vikes.

However, in all fairness, Warner and those receivers are pretty special. He made throws into very small windows.

I don't think the Vikes secondary was that bad, it was their defensive line that didn't look good. They HAVE to create pressure with their front 4, otherwise everything else breaks down.

Teams can pass the ball on the Vikes if they can keep their QB upright.

On offense, they were a trainwreck. It appears like they got rattled, and tried to score 14 points every time they go the ball. I know AP wasn't having a good night, but this is the type of game where keeping the ball on the ground (and out of Warner's hands) would have been huge.

I love AP, but he (and the offensive line) have turned into a homerun hitter(s). It would be great to see some more consistency out of them (1 would have traded 1 40 yard run for 10 4yard runs last night). I know that's easy for me to type, and a lot harder to do in real life... but they need more consistency on the ground to protect their defense.

Brett looked rattled and frustrated for the first time all year.

Fast defenses with exotic blitz packages can frustrate Favre and Peterson. The Vikes probably need to adjust by getting better at screens, seem plays and possibly the Wildcat and/or reverse plays. These type of plays could slow opposing defenses down a little bit and stop them from shooting every gap trying to get at Peterson's feet.

Realistically, I don't think this was that bad of a loss, and is probably more of a wake-up call. But, the loss of EJ Henderson makes this a tough loss.

[IAmMarquette]

Terrible game by the Vikes.

However, in all fairness, Warner and those receivers are pretty special. He made throws into very small windows.

I don't think the Vikes secondary was that bad, it was their defensive line that didn't look good. They HAVE to create pressure with their front 4, otherwise everything else breaks down.

Teams can pass the ball on the Vikes if they can keep their QB upright.

On offense, they were a trainwreck. It appears like they got rattled, and tried to score 14 points every time they go the ball. I know AP wasn't having a good night, but this is the type of game where keeping the ball on the ground (and out of Warner's hands) would have been huge.

I love AP, but he (and the offensive line) have turned into a homerun hitter(s). It would be great to see some more consistency out of them (1 would have traded 1 40 yard run for 10 4yard runs last night). I know that's easy for me to type, and a lot harder to do in real life... but they need more consistency on the ground to protect their defense.

Brett looked rattled and frustrated for the first time all year.

Fast defenses with exotic blitz packages can frustrate Favre and Peterson. The Vikes probably need to adjust by getting better at screens, seem plays and possibly the Wildcat and/or reverse plays. These type of plays could slow opposing defenses down a little bit and stop them from shooting every gap trying to get at Peterson's feet.

Realistically, I don't think this was that bad of a loss, and is probably more of a wake-up call. But, the loss of EJ Henderson makes this a tough loss.

Pretty fair analysis. The Vikings' defense is predicated on their ability to create pressure up front, without (or with minimal) blitzing. Teams that can figure out how to block them/minimize their pass rush with play calling can neutralize that advantage.

Offensively, opposing defenses have been trying all year (with varying levels of success) to stop AP and make Favre beat them. The pressure the Cardinals were able to generate clearly affected Favre last night. Frankly, as a Packer fan, that's the kind of performance I'd come to expect from Favre in big (-ish) games (see just about any playoff game since 2001).

Also as a Packer fan (and I just can't help it) I prefer to see the Vikings (and Bears and Lions) lose whenever possible, but even more so with this Vikings team. For my personal well-being, the Vikings cannot have home-field in the playoffs.  The prospect of them going to New Orleans somewhat eases my worst fears.

[LON]

What a sloppy game last night, but...

a win is a win is a win.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Pretty fair analysis. The Vikings' defense is predicated on their ability to create pressure up front, without (or with minimal) blitzing. Teams that can figure out how to block them/minimize their pass rush with play calling can neutralize that advantage.

Offensively, opposing defenses have been trying all year (with varying levels of success) to stop AP and make Favre beat them. The pressure the Cardinals were able to generate clearly affected Favre last night. Frankly, as a Packer fan, that's the kind of performance I'd come to expect from Favre in big (-ish) games (see just about any playoff game since 2001).

Also as a Packer fan (and I just can't help it) I prefer to see the Vikings (and Bears and Lions) lose whenever possible, but even more so with this Vikings team. For my personal well-being, the Vikings cannot have home-field in the playoffs.  The prospect of them going to New Orleans somewhat eases my worst fears.

Well, nobody had really slowed the Vikes down yet, so, as a fan, I hope this illustrates what they need to work on rather than give other teams a blueprint for how to beat them.

Also, to be fair, Warner made some great throws, and the AZ receivers are second to none. A better pass rush by the Vikes and if Warner misses a couple of throws, it's a different game.

But, football usually comes down to a few key plays. Hats off to AZ.

I still think the Vikes will drop one more and finish at 13-3... which is great... but they have played a terrible schedule, so that certainly helps.

They are a good team, but have their holes, and AZ exposed that on Sunday.

[Dish]

Sounds like Ray Rice will never don a Packer uniform. Ray Rice no likey Green Bay.

[LON]

Sounds like Ray Rice will never don a Packer uniform. Ray Rice no likey Green Bay.

Or he's just bitter about getting shut down and is taking a page from the Ray Lewis handbook.

Isn't he from Piscataway?

[GOMU1104]

Isn't he from Piscataway?

From Profootballtalk.com:

"Ray?  You're from New Rochelle, New York.  You went to college in Piscataway, New Jersey.  And now you live in Baltimore."