NFC North Intelligent, Civilized Discussion 09/10 season

[LON]

Never should have let Mark Wahle walk, or did he want too much money?

[Hards Alumni]

Mike Wahle had one good year after he left, and is now retired.

Same with Marco Rivera (retired)

[Moonboots]

A couple things... Thompson made the right decision to not pony up for Wahle or Rivera.  Doing so would have just compounded our problems.  Rivera blew out his knee right away, and Wahle was okay for a year before hitting a wall, as previously mentioned.  The issue comes in who Ted chose to replace them.  I'm not sure how many of you know this, but Ted Thompson has spent more of his resources on the offensive line than any other position group on the team.  Unfortunately, despite the guy's eye for talent at skill positions, he just doesn't seem to have it in the trenches on the offensive side of the ball.  Maybe a high draft pick (as opposed to a steady stream of 4th and 5th round projects) or an upper tier offensive line free agent would do the trick.  Or maybe James Campen needs to be shown the door.

As far as the discussion about playing for the playoffs... you want to establish a winning culture in the organization.  Having a lax attitude just because you aren't an elite team won't bode well in the future.  Learning to win is a process.

The league is in a strange place right now.  The playoff results since the realignment have made every team going into the playoffs a contender, and dominant teams just don't exist with the regularity that they used to.  As I say that, we have Denver, New Orleans and Indy hanging around as undefeated teams through week 7 for the first time in NFL history, and about five teams that show no capability to beat anybody other than each other (Cleveland, Oakland, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Detroit).  

Despite the fact that parity seems to be taking a back seat this year (and in special instances like the Patriots '07 season and the Lions '08 season), it's much easier for a wild card team to roll into the playoffs and make major noise compared to a decade ago.

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2631_Playoff_chaos?_Blame_realignment.html

http://coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2637_Moral_hazard_and_the_modern_playoffs.html

Take a look at those articles for some really interesting stuff.

To pull out some of the important stuff...

From 1970 to 2001, home teams had a winning record in the postseason in every single year but two (1971, 1992), when the split the playoff slate 50-50.

In 2005, just the fourth year of realignment, home teams suffered a losing record (4-6) for the first time in history. Last year, home teams went just .500. And, no matter what happens next weekend in the conference championship games, home teams (currently 3-5) will do no better than .500 this year.

That's two .500 postseasons in the 32 years from 1970 to 2001, and three .500 (or worse) postseasons in the last four years.

Anyone else sense a disturbance in the football force? Well, here it is:
Home teams won 70.4 percent of playoff games (190-80) from the merger in 1970 to the last year of the old alignment in 2001.
Home teams have won just 58.8 percent of playoff games (40-28) from the realignment of 2002 until today.
Home teams have won just 52.6 percent of playoff games (20-18) since 2004, easily the worst four years for home teams in NFL postseason history.
If the Ravens and Eagles win next Sunday, clearly a possibility, 2008 will easily go down as the worst year for home teams in NFL postseason history (3-7).

and...

Consider the chaos of the past four years, and the unlikely champions it's yielded:

The 2005 Steelers were the first No. 6 seed to win a Super Bowl and the first team to win the Super Bowl without the benefit of a home playoff game. The 2005 Steelers, in other words, were an anomaly by historic standards.

The 2006 Colts entered the playoffs with the worst run defense the NFL had seen since the expansion Vikings of 1961 (Indy surrendered an awful 5.33 YPA) and a unit that surrendered 360 points that year. It was the worst defense of any Super Bowl champion. The 2006 Colts, in other words, were an anomaly by historic standards.

The 2007 Giants were a 10-6 team that outscored opponents by a mere 22 points. Yet like another No. 6 seed, the Steelers two years earlier, the Giants won three straight road games before winning the Super Bowl. Their +22 scoring differential is the lowest of any Super Bowl champion and only the 2006 Colts (360 points) gave up more points than the Giants (351). The 2007 Giants, in other words, were an anomaly by historic standards.

The 2008 Cardinals are the latest Team Nobody Saw Coming – the anomalous Super Bowl contender that not only lost seven games this year, but lost many of them badly. The Cardinals were blown out by 21 points or more four times this year. They scored just one more point than the surrendered (427 to 426) and if they do win Sunday – remember, they get to play at home – they'll easily be the worst team and the worst defensive club that's ever reached a Super Bowl.

I really liked the old system because as the articles point out, it almost always ensured the best teams made the playoffs from each conference, and the best of the best were rewarded with home games.  That's not the case under the current system.  However, given the current make up of my own team, the new system plays more into my team's hands than before if we can learn to cover up our deficiencies between now and the end of the season.

[MU B2002]

As I say that, we have Denver, New Orleans and Indy hanging around as undefeated teams through week 7 for the first time in NFL history, and about five teams that show no capability to beat anybody other than each other (Cleveland, Oakland, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Detroit).  

Uh. Didn't Denver just get smoked, but that was in week 8 and your post talks about week 7.  Almost looks like you cut and pasted the content out of an article.

[Moonboots]

Uh. Didn't Denver just get smoked, but that was in week 8 and your post talks about week 7.  Almost looks like you cut and pasted the content out of an article.

That info isn't from either of the articles, both were written last year during the playoffs.  It  should have read "had" three undefeated teams through week 7 for the first time ever, which was a stat I read in an article sometime during the middle of last week.  My bad.

[Hards Alumni]

Maybe a high draft pick (as opposed to a steady stream of 4th and 5th round projects) or an upper tier offensive line free agent would do the trick.  Or maybe James Campen needs to be shown the door.

this is correct.

[Jay Bee]

Through 8 games:

Consensus Vikings      7-1 (3-0 div)
Chicago Bears           4-4 (1-1 div)
Green Bey Packers     4-4 (2-2 div)

Minnesota, coming off a bye week, will next face Detroit and Seattle, both at home. 

Carolina up 14-0 on New Orleans.. go Panthers!!

[NavinRJohnson]

Aside from the fact that is is completely impractical, is there any reason Mike McCarthy should have a job tomorrow?

[mu_hilltopper]

The hour long Packers post-game "blitz" show on Fox6 should be fun to watch.

[JimmyBIToldYa]

Aside from the fact that is is completely impractical, is there any reason Mike McCarthy should have a job tomorrow?

only if he's a good burger flipper

[GGGG]

Aside from the fact that is is completely impractical, is there any reason Mike McCarthy should have a job tomorrow?

James Campen most certainly should not.

[IAmMarquette]

No discipline...the most penalized team in the NFL.
The line can't block for sh!t
Play calling is garbage.
Defense can't get a stop

Time to clean house in Green Bay?

[Moonboots]

No discipline...the most penalized team in the NFL.
The line can't block for sh!t
Play calling is garbage.
Defense can't get a stop

Time to clean house in Green Bay?

As far as I'm concerned, Thompson can stay.  McCarthy and co., however, are a different story.  Jay Bee, are we all squared away?

[MUEng92]

Maybe this was McCarthy's way of making Favre look less impressive.  By losing to a winless team the next week. 

What Favre did against the Packers was less impressive than what a 21 yr old player did making his first start.

Brilliant, McCarthy!!  And here I was starting to think you were just a terrible coach.

[IAmMarquette]

As far as I'm concerned, Thompson can stay.  McCarthy and co., however, are a different story.  Jay Bee, are we all squared away?

I'm inclined to agree that coaching is a bigger problem than personnel, but Thompson isn't without some share of the blame.

[GGGG]

Thompson can draft fine, but he needs to be more aggressive in free agency.  Ron Wolf drafted very well, but he added key pieces via free agency that Thompson seems unwilling to do.  If that philosophy doesn't change, IMO they will plateau.

[JimmyBIToldYa]

Thompson can draft fine, but he needs to be more aggressive in free agency.  Ron Wolf drafted very well, but he added key pieces via free agency that Thompson seems unwilling to do.  If that philosophy doesn't change, IMO they will plateau.

Oh really? lets take at look at the packers vs vikings drafts the last 4 years

Vikings:

Percy Harvin

Phil Loadholt

Ashar Allen

Adrian Peterson

Sydney Rice

Chad Greenway

Cedric Griffen

Packers:

Raji-too early to tell

Matthews-could be great

Jordy Nelson-too early to tell

Brian Brohm-bust

Pat Lee-bust

Justin Harrell-bust

Brandon Jackson-bust

James Jones-ok

Aaron Rouse-bust

AJ Hawk-ok

Greg Jennings-great pick

Abdul Hodge-bust

Jason spitz-ok

thats one of the major differences in these two teams (btw im a huge pack fan)

[GOMU1104]

Oh really? lets take at look at the packers vs vikings drafts the last 4 years

Vikings:

Percy Harvin

Phil Loadholt

Ashar Allen

Adrian Peterson

Sydney Rice

Chad Greenway

Cedric Griffen

Packers:

Raji-too early to tell

Matthews-could be great

Jordy Nelson-too early to tell

Brian Brohm-bust

Pat Lee-bust

Justin Harrell-bust

Brandon Jackson-bust

James Jones-ok

Aaron Rouse-bust

AJ Hawk-ok

Greg Jennings-great pick

Abdul Hodge-bust

Jason spitz-ok

thats one of the major differences in these two teams (btw im a huge pack fan)

Must be a HUGE fan...only HUGE fans would have left out Aaron Rodgers and Nick Collins as a TT picks...


Moving on...Is there anyone out there that can convince me that GB can win 5 to 6 more games and stumble into the playoffs?

[Moonboots]

Must be a HUGE fan...only HUGE fans would have left out Aaron Rodgers and Nick Collins as a TT picks...


Moving on...Is there anyone out there that can convince me that GB can win 5 to 6 more games and stumble into the playoffs?

With the level of discipline and execution we show on a weekly basis? Please...


It will be interesting to see how it is handled.  Each has three years left on their deal after this season, and would be an expensive buy out.  But they'd make that money back tenfold if they hired a tandem who could turn things around and become a contender.  I don't think you can fire one or the other and have it work.  Firing McCarthy and keeping Thompson means if you eventually decide Thompson isn't the right guy, you're left with a lame duck coach and a new GM, setting your franchise back even a few more years.  If you keep McCarthy and fire Thompson, you create the lame duck situation immediately.  Neither is desirable. 

A guy I post with on another forum brought up another interesting point:

The worst part about it all, and this has nothing to do with today, is that teams DO NOT FEAR COMING TO LAMBEAU anymore. This used to be a game that every team in the league just marked as a L on their calender. Done deal. Not even worth talking about. Now it's just another game. This started under Sherman, and it's been made worse under TT.

And the reason is, none of these guys understand what it's like to be A PACKER.

Holmgren got it. Wolf got it. Reggie got it. I think Favre used to, but all the fucking Wrangler commercials and Blow Jobs from Madden have made him forget.

What franchise in ANY sport is like the Packers? Are you serious? A pro sport franchise that THRIVES in a city of 100,000 people? That's ridiculous. And during our magical run, it's was at least in a small part because guys like Wolf, Holmgren, and the players knew that being a Packer was just a touch different than playing pro sports in any other city.

That's gone. That 'magic' has been sucked out. To TT, this is just a job. To McCarthy, this is just a job. They don't get it, and maybe it's because I can't even put into words what it's supposed to be, that not everyone gets it.

[JimmyBIToldYa]

Must be a HUGE fan...only HUGE fans would have left out Aaron Rodgers and Nick Collins as a TT picks...


Moving on...Is there anyone out there that can convince me that GB can win 5 to 6 more games and stumble into the playoffs?

hey moron i have lived near green bay my entire life so i am a huge fan, and if you could read i said THE LAST 4 DRAFTS!!!

[MU B2002]

Moving on...Is there anyone out there that can convince me that GB can win 5 to 6 more games and stumble into the playoffs?

Depends, how many times can you schedule the Bears.  F***ing weak today in Chicago.  And what the hell is Tommie Harris doing?!  That was Florida Gator eye gouging subtle.

Jay Bee,
You accept paypal, personal check, or bartering?

[GOMU1104]

hey moron i have lived near green bay my entire life so i am a huge fan, and if you could read i said THE LAST 4 DRAFTS!!!

I dont care where you live.

Why would you include only the last 4 drafts? That makes a whole lot of sense...

[GOMU1104]

With the level of discipline and execution we show on a weekly basis? Please...


It will be interesting to see how it is handled.  Each has three years left on their deal after this season, and would be an expensive buy out.  But they'd make that money back tenfold if they hired a tandem who could turn things around and become a contender.  I don't think you can fire one or the other and have it work.  Firing McCarthy and keeping Thompson means if you eventually decide Thompson isn't the right guy, you're left with a lame duck coach and a new GM, setting your franchise back even a few more years.  If you keep McCarthy and fire Thompson, you create the lame duck situation immediately.  Neither is desirable. 

Dont GMs usually get 2 chances to hire head coaches?  That was what I always thought the standard was.

[GGGG]

Dont GMs usually get 2 chances to hire head coaches?  That was what I always thought the standard was.

Jason Wilde on WKLH this morning said that since Mike Murphy didn't hire any of these guys, that either Thompson / McCarthy stay...or they go.  They are pretty much a package deal.

[Hards Alumni]

Time for McCarthy to be honest.  I am so sick of his coach speak.

"We didn't do the right things and its a coaching thing and an execution thing"

great, so FIX IT.  This is the 9th week of the season, and you still have this many coaching problems?

FIRE SLOCUM first of all.  Maybe that will wake up the team of zombies playing special teams out there.