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Author Topic: What is Going on?  (Read 27131 times)

Ready2Fly

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2009, 09:42:20 AM »
You forgot about Mbao, just saying.

I was only listing what are considered top 100 level players.  I haven't seen Mbao characterized as such anywhere.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2009, 09:59:55 AM »
Ok, I'm a newbie.
ESPN has the following guys considering MU, which ones do we have a chance at:
Justin Coleman    
Carson Desrosiers
Maurice Walker
Shane Southwell    
Jayvaughn Pinkston
Flavien Davis    
J.J. Moore
Lavonte Dority
Jesse Morgan

-Or is there a more accurate listing somewhere?

nyg

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2009, 10:06:37 AM »
Ok, I'm a newbie.
ESPN has the following guys considering MU, which ones do we have a chance at:
Justin Coleman    
[font=Verdana]Carson Desrosiers [/font]
Maurice Walker
Shane Southwell    
Jayvaughn Pinkston
Flavien Davis    
J.J. Moore
Lavonte Dority
Jesse Morgan

-Or is there a more accurate listing somewhere?

Red means they are out.  Check other threads out there

jmayer1

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2009, 10:29:10 AM »
So here is my challenge to you:  If you want to dispute me, please cite your examples--find me the teams that lost their best player (and one of the best ever for that school) to graduation, and were subsequently picked to move up in the standings.  Pick any team/any league.  Big East/ACC/Big12/Big10.  Any team.  Any league. 

This took about 3 seconds:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2006
MU finishes in a tie for 4th.

http://collegehoopsnet.com/story/big_east_preseason_poll_all_conference
MU is picked to finish in 4th alone the year after losing Novak.

Obivously a jump from a tie for 4th to 4th alone is a very small jump, but it still is a higher finish.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2009
Cuse finishes in 6th place.

http://www.collegehoopsvideo.com/2009/07/2009-big-east-basketball-pre-season-rankings/
Cuse picked to finish 5th, after losing Flynn (and Harris and Devendorf).

Where MU will be picked to finish in '10-'11 depends on how the team fares in '09-'10 and how the newcomers (Buycks, DJO, Maymon, EWill, Mbao) assimilate themselves.  If MU has a better season than most people expect and the newcomers (along with Bulter & Otule) turn out to be pretty big contributors (like the 3 amigos were their freshmen year) then I can very easily see MU getting picked to finish higher.

GOO

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2009, 10:42:37 AM »
Picked to move up in the standings vs. actually moving up.  I think we stand a better chance of moving up in the standing in 2010-11.  Who picks us to do so pre-season is another story. 

Most people voting on these pre-season ratings, even coaches who don't bother taking the time, won't know as much about this team then we will.  It is the one bet in Vegas that even the experts note that fans can have an advantage:  College B-ball where the fans actually know the teams better than the bookies, except for the top few teams.

I expect improvement next year without Lazar.  Lazar is good, but he isn't Wade or an out of this world player.  The drop off with be slight. 

What team will not be loosing a great player next year in the big east?  I really don't know, but most teams will be loosing at least one key player to graduation or NBA, etc.  We loose one player and should have a player ready to slide into his time.   

Ahoya06

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2009, 11:48:04 AM »
I have full faith that Buzz will build us back into a contender. He's already proven himself as both a recruiter and coach, IMO, and I have no reason to doubt our future.

ChuckyChip

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2009, 12:00:39 PM »
I have full faith that Buzz will build us back into a contender. He's already proven himself as both a recruiter and coach, IMO, and I have no reason to doubt our future.

He has?  I would say the jury is still out.

Last year's team performed pretty much as expected, didn't really overachieve or underachieve.  Still too early to make a call on his coaching ability.

As for recruiting, outside of Jimmy Butler, who has Buzz brought in the proves he can recruit?  Let's see what his first couple classes do on the court.

RJax55

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2009, 12:08:17 PM »
He has?  I would say the jury is still out.

Last year's team performed pretty much as expected, didn't really overachieve or underachieve.  Still too early to make a call on his coaching ability.

As for recruiting, outside of Jimmy Butler, who has Buzz brought in the proves he can recruit?  Let's see what his first couple classes do on the court.

I agree. The jury is definitely still out.

bma725

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2009, 12:09:29 PM »
Red means they are out.  Check other threads out there

You might want to look again.  Everyone of those guys should have been red except Walker and Pinkston...and they should probably be pink.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2009, 12:12:53 PM »
I have full faith that Buzz will build us back into a contender. He's already proven himself as both a recruiter and coach, IMO, and I have no reason to doubt our future.

What do you mean by contender?  We've been pretty darn good the last 4 years and 6 of the last 8.  Do you mean national title contender or Big East contender?

I concur with others, jury very much out.  We won't know for suer for a few years


nyg

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2009, 12:19:07 PM »
You might want to look again.  Everyone of those guys should have been red except Walker and Pinkston...and they should probably be pink.

Feel free to edit. Dority the Chicago point and Davis I know of, Morgan - no clue. 
You are right, pink is rare, I say medium well done.


Boone

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2009, 12:26:48 PM »
According to Rivals, we're one of 5 schools listed w/'07 recruit Dominic Rutledge, who attends/attended the same JC as Johnson-Odom. He's a PF and would be a junior in 2010-11.

kmwtrucks

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2009, 12:59:22 PM »
We were recruiting Rutledge in 2007 as well, but he was not going to qualify.  I will also say the Jury is still out on both, but Buzz did a good job coaching last year.  Think about the level we were playing at on a nightly basis, before DJ got hurt.  Wes had his best year by far, Lazar had his best year by far and James and Mcneal with both playing great. Also they played UCONN, VILLE, CUSE, NOVA, and MIZZ right down to the wire with 3 player's, Butler who was coming on and BURKE and ACKER.

Marquette84

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2009, 01:09:58 PM »
Picked to move up in the standings vs. actually moving up.  I think we stand a better chance of moving up in the standing in 2010-11.  Who picks us to do so pre-season is another story.  

Most people voting on these pre-season ratings, even coaches who don't bother taking the time, won't know as much about this team then we will.  It is the one bet in Vegas that even the experts note that fans can have an advantage:  College B-ball where the fans actually know the teams better than the bookies, except for the top few teams.


Thank you for noting the difference.  

The issue for next year is that the schedule and TV matchups are based on the pre-season expectations.  If you're expected to finish 12th, you aren't going to get prime TV slots.  That obviously hurt us this year, and may hurt us next year as well.

And as I said before, I don't think our coach telling the world that we ought to be picked 16th gives the league any incentive to give us the benefit of the doubt.

Look at it this way--have you heard Boeheim, Dixon, Davis talking down their teams?  Maybe they have and I missed it. 

Compare "we ought to be picked 16th" to Boeheim's ""I'm very happy—as happy as I've ever been with a group coming back"

http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-09-07/syracuses-jim-boeheim-happy-team-s-summer-progress


Now, some would say that Boeheim is setting unrealistic expectations.  But they're on Big Monday and have a a bunch of TV appearances this year. 



I expect improvement next year without Lazar.  Lazar is good, but he isn't Wade or an out of this world player.  The drop off with be slight.  

What team will not be loosing a great player next year in the big east?  I really don't know, but most teams will be loosing at least one key player to graduation or NBA, etc.  We loose one player and should have a player ready to slide into his time.  

Let's take the MU emotion out of things and consider other teams that will likely lose a first team Big East player:

ND loses Harangody.  Nice player, but not out of this world.  Projected 2nd rounder.  Do you expect ND to be better next year without him?  I doubt it.  People will rightly say ND has big shoes to fill, even though they'll have a lot of their roster coming back for another year.

Say WVU loses Ebanks.  If Ebanks goes, WVU will be picked to drop, no doubt about it.

What if Cincy loses Yancy Gates.  Does Cincy get picked higher the following year?  Not very likely.






http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2006
MU finishes in a tie for 4th.

http://collegehoopsnet.com/story/big_east_preseason_poll_all_conference
MU is picked to finish in 4th alone the year after losing Novak.

Obivously a jump from a tie for 4th to 4th alone is a very small jump, but it still is a higher finish.


Technically its not a jump at all.  Its no change for us.  Its a drop by the other teams.  



http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2009
Cuse finishes in 6th place.

http://www.collegehoopsvideo.com/2009/07/2009-big-east-basketball-pre-season-rankings/
Cuse picked to finish 5th, after losing Flynn (and Harris and Devendorf).



True, but Syracuse is picked that high because of the eligibility of Wesley Johnson--who most view as a proven impact player.

As I said, we can move up despite losing Hayward if we land a perceived impact player to take his place.  

MU (as of now) doesn't have such a player projected to come in next year.




Where MU will be picked to finish in '10-'11 depends on how the team fares in '09-'10 and how the newcomers (Buycks, DJO, Maymon, EWill, Mbao) assimilate themselves.  If MU has a better season than most people expect and the newcomers (along with Bulter & Otule) turn out to be pretty big contributors (like the 3 amigos were their freshmen year) then I can very easily see MU getting picked to finish higher.


Exactly.  If we finish 12th or 13th THIS season, our newcomers won't be given much credit for being able to lift us NEXT season.  

As above, for illustration let's take the MU bias out of the equation.  Look at Rutgers.  Their key players--Rosario and Echinique--are a year more experienced.  You would expect them to improve now that they're sophomores.  Yet, RU is picked to finish 15th.  Again.





« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 01:18:19 PM by Marquette84 »

GGGG

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2009, 01:25:48 PM »
We were recruiting Rutledge in 2007 as well, but he was not going to qualify.  I will also say the Jury is still out on both, but Buzz did a good job coaching last year.  Think about the level we were playing at on a nightly basis, before DJ got hurt.  Wes had his best year by far, Lazar had his best year by far and James and Mcneal with both playing great. Also they played UCONN, VILLE, CUSE, NOVA, and MIZZ right down to the wire with 3 player's, Butler who was coming on and BURKE and ACKER.


I want to see how Buzz does with a younger team, and not a bunch of returners, before we anoint him as a good coach.  Sports is filled with examples of replacement coaches with veteran teams that play well in year one.  Let's see how he does with his guys.

Ahoya06

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2009, 01:53:28 PM »
I guess I should clarify with "back to a contender." We've been great the last few years, and are now picked 12th in the BE. I believe that within a year or two, we will once again be projected near the top of the conference perennially.

jmayer1

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2009, 02:29:23 PM »
Technically its not a jump at all.  Its no change for us.  Its a drop by the other teams.  

True, but Syracuse is picked that high because of the eligibility of Wesley Johnson--who most view as a proven impact player.

As I said, we can move up despite losing Hayward if we land a perceived impact player to take his place.  

MU (as of now) doesn't have such a player projected to come in next year.

Exactly.  If we finish 12th or 13th THIS season, our newcomers won't be given much credit for being able to lift us NEXT season.  

As above, for illustration let's take the MU bias out of the equation.  Look at Rutgers.  Their key players--Rosario and Echinique--are a year more experienced.  You would expect them to improve now that they're sophomores.  Yet, RU is picked to finish 15th.  Again.


Actually, technically being picked 4th from a tie for 4th (or 5th or 6th, however you want to look at it) is a jump.  You asked for examples and I provided two off the top of head.  I guarantee there are a ton more examples just going back 10 years or so.  

Like I said, if MU exceeds expectations next year and the players that will return in '10-'11 contribute to that success, I very well think you could see MU be picked higher than they finished (just like the expectations prior to the amigo's sophomore year, when Hayward was the only top 100-type talent coming in to replace Novak).

Rutgers has been garbage for a long time.  Until they start showing something on the court they will continue to be picked for the dregs of the conference, as that's usually where they end up.

The idea that MU isn't on tv much this year because of some of Buzz's comments is quite the jump.  MU isn't picked to finish high this year, that's why they aren't being televised much.

Marquette84

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2009, 08:31:12 PM »
Actually, technically being picked 4th from a tie for 4th (or 5th or 6th, however you want to look at it) is a jump.  You asked for examples and I provided two off the top of head.  I guarantee there are a ton more examples just going back 10 years or so.  


Fine.  If we finish 12th this year,  the pre-season polls next year will reflect a big jump--all the way to 12th place.






lurch91

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #68 on: September 24, 2009, 08:07:22 AM »

I want to see how Buzz does with a younger team, and not a bunch of returners, before we anoint him as a good coach.  Sports is filled with examples of replacement coaches with veteran teams that play well in year one.  Let's see how he does with his guys.

Charlie Wiess is a good example....

Hards Alumni

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2009, 01:11:27 PM »
Thank you for noting the difference.  

The issue for next year is that the schedule and TV matchups are based on the pre-season expectations.  If you're expected to finish 12th, you aren't going to get prime TV slots.  That obviously hurt us this year, and may hurt us next year as well.

And as I said before, I don't think our coach telling the world that we ought to be picked 16th gives the league any incentive to give us the benefit of the doubt.

Look at it this way--have you heard Boeheim, Dixon, Davis talking down their teams?  Maybe they have and I missed it. 

Compare "we ought to be picked 16th" to Boeheim's ""I'm very happy—as happy as I've ever been with a group coming back"

http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-09-07/syracuses-jim-boeheim-happy-team-s-summer-progress


Now, some would say that Boeheim is setting unrealistic expectations.  But they're on Big Monday and have a a bunch of TV appearances this year. 


Let's take the MU emotion out of things and consider other teams that will likely lose a first team Big East player:

ND loses Harangody.  Nice player, but not out of this world.  Projected 2nd rounder.  Do you expect ND to be better next year without him?  I doubt it.  People will rightly say ND has big shoes to fill, even though they'll have a lot of their roster coming back for another year.

Say WVU loses Ebanks.  If Ebanks goes, WVU will be picked to drop, no doubt about it.

What if Cincy loses Yancy Gates.  Does Cincy get picked higher the following year?  Not very likely.





Technically its not a jump at all.  Its no change for us.  Its a drop by the other teams.  


True, but Syracuse is picked that high because of the eligibility of Wesley Johnson--who most view as a proven impact player.

As I said, we can move up despite losing Hayward if we land a perceived impact player to take his place.  

MU (as of now) doesn't have such a player projected to come in next year.



Exactly.  If we finish 12th or 13th THIS season, our newcomers won't be given much credit for being able to lift us NEXT season.  

As above, for illustration let's take the MU bias out of the equation.  Look at Rutgers.  Their key players--Rosario and Echinique--are a year more experienced.  You would expect them to improve now that they're sophomores.  Yet, RU is picked to finish 15th.  Again.







TLDR

The Lens

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2009, 01:48:46 PM »



Of course, it might help if we had someone lobbying for that exposure.  For some reason, when our previous coach worked to get MU on TV it was regarded as a character flaw under the specious argument that he ALSO got TV coverage.  

Well, now we're paying the price of Buzz's "brutal honesty."  Making public statements that your team deserves to be picked 16th at the very time the league is determining the TV schedule gives the league a perfect excuse to give MU the barest minimum of coverage.  



With our former coach lobbying so well on our behalf and coming off a bad year in CUSA we got 3 Nat'l game in 05-06 (1 ESPN, 2 ESPNUs). 

http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/101905aaa.html

I'll make sure to hold Buzz to that standard, 1 ESPN...2 ESPNUs...hope Buzz is up for that "challenge".
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