MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: willie warrior on September 22, 2009, 10:37:22 AM
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Too much bad news in the last week or so to remain positive:
- Bowen de-commits
Clark becomes a big time rapist
Cadougan out for the year
DJO out for a while
Cameron Clark announces for OU
DeRosiers eliminates us?
Acker will likely be a starter---OMG
We are picked about 12-13 in BEast
Is there anything to be positive about?
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You missed a few. We're out w/Moore and Young and Walker is reportedly a Pitt lean. What are we down to Plans C and D for recruits? Not good.
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How about 24 days until MU Madness or that we are still on Vander Blue. However, it has been a rough summer to say the least. There is no confirmed statement that Carson Desrosiers is out on us yet.
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It's a bummer 3 weeks ago I was sooooo pumped.
MU gonna have a good year, recruit great for next year, now I don't know what to think!
UGH!
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You missed a few. We're out w/Moore and Young and Walker is reportedly a Pitt lean. What are we down to Plans C and D for recruits? Not good.
If Plan C and D happens with three scholarships, something is really wrong. Please don't even think JUCO time again. Plenty of time left in the recruiting season though.
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The silver lining is that most of the recruits Buzz has landed seemed to have "come from out of nowhere".
We'll see if that happens again. Maybe he is in good with a recruit we don't even know about.
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Jamail Jones is a helluva player at least according to the Xavier board and most of the other info I could get on him. I really think he' s being undersold because he's not local. That's my positive, we've got a great G/F in the bag and looking for more.
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Jamail Jones is a helluva player at least according to the Xavier board and most of the other info I could get on him. I really think he' s being undersold because he's not local. That's my positive, we've got a great G/F in the bag and looking for more.
I think we get too hung up over a "top 40 guy" v. a "top 80 guy" anyway. So much of what they accomplish here will be due to coaching, effort and injuries anyway.
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The silver lining is that most of the recruits Buzz has landed seemed to have "come from out of nowhere".
We'll see if that happens again. Maybe he is in good with a recruit we don't even know about.
The problem with "come out of nowhere" recruits is that the league doesn't respect them, which leads to pre-season predictions of 12th or 13th place, which lead to no TV appearances, which lead to big-time recruits looking elsewhere.
Then, to make matters worse, let's say these guys really are a 12th or 13th place team this year. What happens next year?
We'll be a 13th place team that will lose its best player in Hayward and only experienced PG in Acker. Our new PG will be a redshirt freshman coming off a serious injury. We won't be reloading with instant-impact guys, but rather "come out of nowhere" unknowns. 13th place this year means we'll be a pre-season 14th to 16th place pick in 2010-11.
Frankly, we needed a blockbuster recruit to come in next fall to give MU some ammunition when lobbying for our share of marquee TV matchups in the 2010-11 season.
Of course, it might help if we had someone lobbying for that exposure. For some reason, when our previous coach worked to get MU on TV it was regarded as a character flaw under the specious argument that he ALSO got TV coverage.
Well, now we're paying the price of Buzz's "brutal honesty." Making public statements that your team deserves to be picked 16th at the very time the league is determining the TV schedule gives the league a perfect excuse to give MU the barest minimum of coverage.
I can just imagine the league discussions with ESPN. "How about Marquette/Notre Dame Big Monday game?" "Nah--not even Buzz Williams thinks they're better than last place. Give 'em their minimum 3 games."
Frankly, my fear isn't for this year--we're already stuck without marquee TV coverage this season. My biggest fear is that next season we'll STILL be stuck with the same low pre-season expectations--driving the same lack of TV exposure--driving the same lack of success with top-level recruits.
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Recruiting is what wins in college basketball. This is supposed to Buzz's MO. He needs to close something here or he will end up like Crean with one great class followed up by duds.
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Everyone needs to put down the kool-aid here...
Did you really expect Buzz to follow up a Top-Rated '09 recruiting class with four ESPN Top 100's in '10!?!?
Don't get me wrong, I was very hopeful. But we're not UNC or KU, we don't reload with All-Americans every year.
The real positive that everyone seems to be missing is that Buzz and his staff got us IN on so many top talents. I really don't recall a year where MU had so many highly regarded players listing us in their FINAL 3...that's a big deal!
Part of the reason Buzz was able to attract the talent he did this year was BECAUSE there was a great deal of playing time available. The fact that he got top talents to consider us again this year is a small feat in and of itself.
The national signing day is still over a month out...so let's all keep our fingers crossed and see how everything pans out...
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The problem with "come out of nowhere" recruits is that the league doesn't respect them, which leads to pre-season predictions of 12th or 13th place, which lead to no TV appearances, which lead to big-time recruits looking elsewhere.
Then, to make matters worse, let's say these guys really are a 12th or 13th place team this year. What happens next year?
We'll be a 13th place team that will lose its best player in Hayward and only experienced PG in Acker. Our new PG will be a redshirt freshman coming off a serious injury. We won't be reloading with instant-impact guys, but rather "come out of nowhere" unknowns. 13th place this year means we'll be a pre-season 14th to 16th place pick in 2010-11.
Frankly, we needed a blockbuster recruit to come in next fall to give MU some ammunition when lobbying for our share of marquee TV matchups in the 2010-11 season.
Of course, it might help if we had someone lobbying for that exposure. For some reason, when our previous coach worked to get MU on TV it was regarded as a character flaw under the specious argument that he ALSO got TV coverage.
Well, now we're paying the price of Buzz's "brutal honesty." Making public statements that your team deserves to be picked 16th at the very time the league is determining the TV schedule gives the league a perfect excuse to give MU the barest minimum of coverage.
I can just imagine the league discussions with ESPN. "How about Marquette/Notre Dame Big Monday game?" "Nah--not even Buzz Williams thinks they're better than last place. Give 'em their minimum 3 games."
Frankly, my fear isn't for this year--we're already stuck without marquee TV coverage this season. My biggest fear is that next season we'll STILL be stuck with the same low pre-season expectations--driving the same lack of TV exposure--driving the same lack of success with top-level recruits.
I don't necessarily disagree, but if Buzz brings in talented players and wins, I don't care what the recruits were ranked.
Obviously we'd all love to have a top recruiting class... but I don't want to freak out if some high school scout ranked a guy at #80 rather than #50.
Chili, I thought playing great basketball won games. And yes, I realize you need to have talented players to do that... but let's not start chalking losses in 2012 in the fall of 09.
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You can effectively move Cadougan to the 2010 class now. I'm assuming he will be medically red shirted, so his eligibility begins along with Jamail Jones.
That leaves a class of Maymon, Williams, DJO and Buycks
followed by Cadougan, Jones, and ...
One more top 100 for the 2010 class, and that will give MU a year with seven top 100 level players, followed by a year with six. The sky is not falling.
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I don't necessarily disagree, but if Buzz brings in talented players and wins, I don't care what the recruits were ranked.
Obviously we'd all love to have a top recruiting class... but I don't want to freak out if some high school scout ranked a guy at #80 rather than #50.
Chili, I thought playing great basketball won games. And yes, I realize you need to have talented players to do that... but let's not start chalking losses in 2012 in the fall of 09.
Well so far the one man class isn't going to win a ton of games. This was an issue the Bronze One had, Buzz needs to improve on it. This was also a time to start building on HS or Prep players instead of going into the JC well all the time so you can have kids on campus longer.
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The problem with "come out of nowhere" recruits is that the league doesn't respect them, which leads to pre-season predictions of 12th or 13th place, which lead to no TV appearances, which lead to big-time recruits looking elsewhere.
Then, to make matters worse, let's say these guys really are a 12th or 13th place team this year. What happens next year?
We'll be a 13th place team that will lose its best player in Hayward and only experienced PG in Acker. Our new PG will be a redshirt freshman coming off a serious injury. We won't be reloading with instant-impact guys, but rather "come out of nowhere" unknowns. 13th place this year means we'll be a pre-season 14th to 16th place pick in 2010-11.
Frankly, we needed a blockbuster recruit to come in next fall to give MU some ammunition when lobbying for our share of marquee TV matchups in the 2010-11 season.
Of course, it might help if we had someone lobbying for that exposure. For some reason, when our previous coach worked to get MU on TV it was regarded as a character flaw under the specious argument that he ALSO got TV coverage.
Well, now we're paying the price of Buzz's "brutal honesty." Making public statements that your team deserves to be picked 16th at the very time the league is determining the TV schedule gives the league a perfect excuse to give MU the barest minimum of coverage.
I can just imagine the league discussions with ESPN. "How about Marquette/Notre Dame Big Monday game?" "Nah--not even Buzz Williams thinks they're better than last place. Give 'em their minimum 3 games."
Frankly, my fear isn't for this year--we're already stuck without marquee TV coverage this season. My biggest fear is that next season we'll STILL be stuck with the same low pre-season expectations--driving the same lack of TV exposure--driving the same lack of success with top-level recruits.
Maquette84 you truly are a fool....
With our great coach doing all his wonderous marketing how many nationally televised and Big Monday games did we have 5 years ago when we were picked to finish 12th in the conference....answer about the same...you ding bat. We did get the game with Uconn, it did not hurt for that to be our first BE game and Ucon rated #1 in the country before the season. Wow
conversely maybe Buzz was a great marketer last year and that is why we got somany antional games? or d you think there was a direct correlation to our prejcted finish and it really had little to nothing to do with the coach?!
Also if you think MU will be picked for 13th next year you are really dumb....our newcomers will impress and the additon of two top 75 recruits in Jones and Junior will create some hype. Meanwhile your lover in Bloominton has a 2 star recruit signed up and a 3 star recruit that scored 7 points agame last year as a junior. and par for the course he not only whiffed on his only big time recruit he was dumped about as hard as one can be in this business. Told after his in home that Iu was not longer being considered. Only a jack ass like your boyfriend could do that.
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Well so far the one man class isn't going to win a ton of games. This was an issue the Bronze One had, Buzz needs to improve on it. This was also a time to start building on HS or Prep players instead of going into the JC well all the time so you can have kids on campus longer.
I agree with all of that.
I'm just not ready to sound any alarms. The recruiting world is a turbulent place. A lot can happen, and a lot is happening that we don't even know about.
Sept. is not the only time to find quality players.
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Maquette84 you truly are a fool....
With our great coach doing all his wonderous marketing how many nationally televised and Big Monday games did we have 5 years ago when we were picked to finish 12th in the conference....answer about the same...you ding bat. We did get the game with Uconn, it did not hurt for that to be our first BE game and Ucon rated #1 in the country before the season. Wow
conversely maybe Buzz was a great marketer last year and that is why we got somany antional games? or d you think there was a direct correlation to our prejcted finish and it really had little to nothing to do with the coach?!
Also if you think MU will be picked for 13th next year you are really dumb....our newcomers will impress and the additon of two top 75 recruits in Jones and Junior will create some hype. Meanwhile your lover in Bloominton has a 2 star recruit signed up and a 3 star recruit that scored 7 points agame last year as a junior. and par for the course he not only whiffed on his only big time recruit he was dumped about as hard as one can be in this business. Told after his in home that Iu was not longer being considered. Only a jack ass like your boyfriend could do that.
Straw Man.
Stay on topic young man.
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You can effectively move Cadougan to the 2010 class now. I'm assuming he will be medically red shirted, so his eligibility begins along with Jamail Jones.
That leaves a class of Maymon, Williams, DJO and Buycks
followed by Cadougan, Jones, and ...
One more top 100 for the 2010 class, and that will give MU a year with seven top 100 level players, followed by a year with six. The sky is not falling.
Buycks and DJO are not "top 100" recruits. They certainly weren't coming out of high school.
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Too much bad news in the last week or so to remain positive:
- Bowen de-commits
Clark becomes a big time rapist
Cadougan out for the year
DJO out for a while
Cameron Clark announces for OU
DeRosiers eliminates us?
Acker will likely be a starter---OMG
We are picked about 12-13 in BEast
Is there anything to be positive about?
Where is this Acker will start nonsense coming from? I keep hearing this all over. Unless Buzz thinks he needs to move Buckys to the 2, there is no way in hell Acker is going to start over him. And correct me if I'm wrong, but do you really think Buzz is going to start someone who wasn't even on the team a month ago? Highly doubtful.
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We have a top 100 commit already. That is the great news. The staff seemed to make him a very high priority from what I've read. In the not too distant past, one top 100 guy would have been a good get. Now, it is a good start. We have made progress as a program.
I hope we can get another top 100 this fall and maybe a top 50. This would be a really nice class coming off an already solid class. We've had trouble following up "anchor" classes in the past, and Buzz seems to have us heading in the right direction with the one top 100, and I think we get another top 100 and maybe a top 50 guy.
Yes, we all would have liked 4 top 50 guys. That isn't going to happen this year, but we can still have a nice class and have things looking way up for next year. Buckys and DJO probably would have been rated higher if they were qualified and being seriously recruited by top schools out of high school. I think they are top 100 quality coming in and may have been if fully qualified directly from high school.
I have no insider info, but my guess is Blue is UW bound. Hope I'm wrong, but I just have a feeling as the UW crowd seems to think the UW staff feels good about Blue. Certain UW posters seems to have their smug posting ways when discussing Blue, which means they feel confident. If they start posting how, player Y, is actually better than Blue or as good, then I will feel better about Blue and MU (unless he is Florida bound).
Pinkston would be a really nice get. Add a quality point guard or combo to start or play with or back up Junior and the class would be really solid to good. Maybe keep a scholi for spring or a transfer.
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Well so far the one man class isn't going to win a ton of games. This was an issue the Bronze One had, Buzz needs to improve on it. This was also a time to start building on HS or Prep players instead of going into the JC well all the time so you can have kids on campus longer.
Sweet Jebus!!!
How many times do we have to say it, Juco's were part of the plan to help distribute the classes. Without class balance he'd be handcuffed for YEARS by needing to recruit 7 one year, then 1 or 2 the other 3.
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Sweet Jebus!!!
How many times do we have to say it, Juco's were part of the plan to help distribute the classes. Without class balance he'd be handcuffed for YEARS by needing to recruit 7 one year, then 1 or 2 the other 3.
Sweet Jebus you need read what I said before flying off the handle.
I did not say a thing about JC’s that are currently part of the team that were used to redistribute the classes. The hope is here that the class of 2010 would be one where everything could settle down and we could stop the JC pipeline and get back to HS and Prep players who are around for 4 years.
You need read what people actually write and realize they were not attacking past actions but rather hoping future ones might be different. Every time someone mentions JC players they are not crushing them.
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It would NOT surprise me that one of the 2010 recruit is a JUCO, as Clark was part of the redistribution process.
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Adversity- so what. We haven't even played a single game and some are crying the blues. Keep the faith and enjoy the season. Stop the whining. As much as I didn’t want Junior to be injured, it will give Erik Williams (a stud in the making) more minutes.
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Also if you think MU will be picked for 13th next year you are really dumb....our newcomers will impress and the additon of two top 75 recruits in Jones and Junior will create some hype.
How impressive will our newcomers be if they don't manage to finish better than 12th or 13th THIS year, when paired with Lazar Hayward?
Rutger's newcomers were impressive last year--yet the team finished near the basement. Anyone picking them to move up this year? I don't think so. And they didn't lose anyone on par with Hayward.
And we've already been down the road that newcomers can't be counted on to generate hype. Junior's hype THIS year--when 100% healthy and paired with Hayward--has led to projections of 12th or 13th place.
Yet you think NEXT year--when Junior hasn't played competitively for a year and coming off a VERY serious injury -- AND we lose one of MU's top five all time scorers in Hayward -- well at that point expectations will be much higher, even though the core of the returning team will be coming off a 12th or 13th place finish?
Here's what I think: when you only return 3 starters (and lose your best player) from a 12th or 13th place team, and don't have any instant impact recruits, then very very few people will think that you are improving.
Lets face it, Jones might be a nice player--eventually--but he's certainly not going to be any more highly regarded than this year's recruits.
The only way we'd move up in the pre-season expectations next year is if we land a player like Derosiers, Blue or Cameron Clark.
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Buycks and DJO are not "top 100" recruits. They certainly weren't coming out of high school.
They are top 100 LEVEL players, which is what my post said. Hoopscoop had them at that level. I know Hoopscoop isn't as respected by some, so I'll go by ESPN grades. Buycks was given a 94, which was a higher grade than Maymon, Williams, or Cadougan got. He committed to MU over Memphis, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Illinois. DJO wasn't rated by ESPN becuase they didn't see him play, but he chose MU over Pitt and Kentucky. So they may not have been top 100 recruits in a nominal sense, but they are certainly considered top 100 LEVEL players.
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The only way we'd move up in the pre-season expectations next year is if we land a player like Derosiers, Blue or Cameron Clark.
Or, *gasp* do better than 12th or 13th place in the BE this year.
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Everyone needs to put down the kool-aid here...
Did you really expect Buzz to follow up a Top-Rated '09 recruiting class with four ESPN Top 100's in '10!?!?
Don't get me wrong, I was very hopeful. But we're not UNC or KU, we don't reload with All-Americans every year.
The real positive that everyone seems to be missing is that Buzz and his staff got us IN on so many top talents. I really don't recall a year where MU had so many highly regarded players listing us in their FINAL 3...that's a big deal!
Part of the reason Buzz was able to attract the talent he did this year was BECAUSE there was a great deal of playing time available. The fact that he got top talents to consider us again this year is a small feat in and of itself.
The national signing day is still over a month out...so let's all keep our fingers crossed and see how everything pans out...
so, no coffee for Buzz?
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Or, *gasp* do better than 12th or 13th place in the BE this year.
Well, I've tried previously to make that case. ;)
Not only does nobody agree with me, but my merely suggesting that we should finish better than 12th or 13th was considered "having an agenda."
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You can effectively move Cadougan to the 2010 class now. I'm assuming he will be medically red shirted, so his eligibility begins along with Jamail Jones.
That leaves a class of Maymon, Williams, DJO and Buycks
followed by Cadougan, Jones, and ...
One more top 100 for the 2010 class, and that will give MU a year with seven top 100 level players, followed by a year with six. The sky is not falling.
You forgot about Mbao, just saying.
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Hayward WTF?
Believe it or not, every piece of analysis on our current coach isn't a comparison to our old coach. You say you want everyone to accept and respect our great new coach but you seem to be the one who can't let the old coach go.
Tom Crean has nothing to do with Buzz's upcoming recruiting classes. He is going to have to continue building winners at MU no matter what happened 3 or 5 years ago or what is currently happening in Bloomington. If Buzz wins 8 games next year and TC wins 7 you would be on this board telling us how much better off we are. I personally don't give a damn what TC does at IU, but Buzz better keep MU consistently in the top third of the BE, in the NCAAs, and compete for a conference title/legit chance at elite eight every 3-4 years. If Buzz can't do that, then he will be a disappointment if he does, then I will have no complaints.
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How impressive will our newcomers be if they don't manage to finish better than 12th or 13th THIS year, when paired with Lazar Hayward?
Rutger's newcomers were impressive last year--yet the team finished near the basement. Anyone picking them to move up this year? I don't think so. And they didn't lose anyone on par with Hayward.
And we've already been down the road that newcomers can't be counted on to generate hype. Junior's hype THIS year--when 100% healthy and paired with Hayward--has led to projections of 12th or 13th place.
Yet you think NEXT year--when Junior hasn't played competitively for a year and coming off a VERY serious injury -- AND we lose one of MU's top five all time scorers in Hayward -- well at that point expectations will be much higher, even though the core of the returning team will be coming off a 12th or 13th place finish?
Here's what I think: when you only return 3 starters (and lose your best player) from a 12th or 13th place team, and don't have any instant impact recruits, then very very few people will think that you are improving.
Lets face it, Jones might be a nice player--eventually--but he's certainly not going to be any more highly regarded than this year's recruits.
The only way we'd move up in the pre-season expectations next year is if we land a player like Derosiers, Blue or Cameron Clark.
i guess you are right and have me convinced . Mu might as well just fold up the program and there is nothing left for you to do but kill yourself.
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Hayward WTF?
Believe it or not, every piece of analysis on our current coach isn't a comparison to our old coach. You say you want everyone to accept and respect our great new coach but you seem to be the one who can't let the old coach go.
Tom Crean has nothing to do with Buzz's upcoming recruiting classes. He is going to have to continue building winners at MU no matter what happened 3 or 5 years ago or what is currently happening in Bloomington. If Buzz wins 8 games next year and TC wins 7 you would be on this board telling us how much better off we are. I personally don't give a damn what TC does at IU, but Buzz better keep MU consistently in the top third of the BE, in the NCAAs, and compete for a conference title/legit chance at elite eight every 3-4 years. If Buzz can't do that, then he will be a disappointment if he does, then I will have no complaints.
i dont disagree with you merely pointing out that in Tom Crean's 5th and 6th years with the program we were freaking terrible, simply terrible terrible rrecruitng class after terrible recruitng class no skill or talent to speak of to the point we got embarrassed at home by a MAc school and we struggling to score 40 a night. Yet those same people that thought Tom crean was so great and therefore that was clearly accpetabl in years 5 and 6 are now saying Buzz better recruit big time year in and year out and win big time year in and year out or it is not accepatble.
wow double standard. Crean went to the NCAA's barely 50% of the time. I will agree Crean took over a team with barely any returning talent. I say what is different for Buzz this year? He might have Lazar but he competiton is also much better.
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Remember what Buzz said in Chicago last week
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15463.0
He then said that he has been on the road recruiting as the recruiting window opened on September 9. He got back Monday night and while he could not talk about it, he said that MU is now in places it has never been before. Buzz said that November 16 is the first day to sign LOI and seem to IMPLY that this would be “a big day for MU.” No further details.
Can we wait a few more weeks and see what happens first?
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i dont disagree with you merely pointing out that in Tom Crean's 5th and 6th years with the program we were freaking terrible, simply terrible terrible rrecruitng class after terrible recruitng class no skill or talent to speak of to the point we got embarrassed at home by a MAc school and we struggling to score 40 a night. Yet those same people that thought Tom crean was so great and therefore that was clearly accpetabl in years 5 and 6 are now saying Buzz better recruit big time year in and year out and win big time year in and year out or it is not accepatble.
wow double standard. Crean went to the NCAA's barely 50% of the time. I will agree Crean took over a team with barely any returning talent. I say what is different for Buzz this year? He might have Lazar but he competiton is also much better.
Again, you are making the Buzz/Crean comparison, not me. With the program Buzz Williams inherited, he needs to generally do the things I listed to be successful. Each coach is evaluated on what he does with the program he inherits, not the one his predecessors inherited. How many years in a row have we made the tourney now? Are you telling me that you are willing to give Buzz 3-4 years until our next appearance? Buzz is not allowed to play the I took over a sinking ship card that TC did, so drop the comparisons already. Buzz will be held to a higher standard in his first 3-4 years than TC was. And honestly, he should be.
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Remember what Buzz said in Chicago last week
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15463.0
He then said that he has been on the road recruiting as the recruiting window opened on September 9. He got back Monday night and while he could not talk about it, he said that MU is now in places it has never been before. Buzz said that November 16 is the first day to sign LOI and seem to IMPLY that this would be “a big day for MU.” No further details.
Can we wait a few more weeks and see what happens first?
Thank you.
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Recruiting is what wins in college basketball. This is supposed to Buzz's MO. He needs to close something here or he will end up like Crean with one great class followed up by duds.
+1.
It's been a bad couple of days recruiting-wise for Marquette basketball.
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i guess you are right and have me convinced . Mu might as well just fold up the program and there is nothing left for you to do but kill yourself.
Don't worry about me--I'm just pointing out the obvious: If we finish 13th we won't be picked any higher next year unless we land an impact recruit like Blue or Derosiers.
I do worry about you, however.
You are obviously still apoplectic over 2004 and 2005 five years after the fact. Given that many expect that this year may even be worse than 2004 or 2005 (which were still 19 win seasons), followed by a rebuilding year with Hayward leaving and no impact recruits on board yet to replace him, I fear what sort of insane rage you'll be in by 2011.
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I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!
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I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!
Really?
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I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!
You do realize that the NCAA has already started to circle around USC while already landing on Memphis, right?
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i dont disagree with you merely pointing out that in Tom Crean's 5th and 6th years with the program we were freaking terrible, simply terrible terrible rrecruitng class after terrible recruitng class no skill or talent to speak of to the point we got embarrassed at home by a MAc school and we struggling to score 40 a night. Yet those same people that thought Tom crean was so great and therefore that was clearly accpetabl in years 5 and 6 are now saying Buzz better recruit big time year in and year out and win big time year in and year out or it is not accepatble.
wow double standard. Crean went to the NCAA's barely 50% of the time. I will agree Crean took over a team with barely any returning talent. I say what is different for Buzz this year? He might have Lazar but he competiton is also much better.
Tom Crean is not the only measuring stick to use.
There are hundreds of D1 coaches out there. Surely you can find another one to make a legit comparison with Buzz.
How about Sean Miller after he took over for Thad Motta? How about Jamie Dixon after he took over for Howland?
You obviously don't like Crean, which is fine, but then don't bring him up in multiple threads if you dislike him so much.
Buzz is going to be evaluated for what he does. What Crean did in year 5 and/or what Crean is doing now has little/no effect on how Buzz will be viewed. The program is different now than in 1999.
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Remember what Buzz said in Chicago last week
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15463.0
He then said that he has been on the road recruiting as the recruiting window opened on September 9. He got back Monday night and while he could not talk about it, he said that MU is now in places it has never been before. Buzz said that November 16 is the first day to sign LOI and seem to IMPLY that this would be “a big day for MU.” No further details.
Can we wait a few more weeks and see what happens first?
What kind of coach/recruiter would he be if he said it wouldn't be a big day for MU?
basically, he just said one of those things that every head coach has to say.
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What kind of coach/recruiter would he be if he said it wouldn't be a big day for MU?
basically, he just said one of those things that every head coach has to say.
Buzz is also painfully honest. If he didn't actually mean that, he wouldn't have said it.
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Buzz is also painfully honest. If he didn't actually mean that, he wouldn't have said it.
a very valid point.
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Don't worry about me--I'm just pointing out the obvious: If we finish 13th we won't be picked any higher next year unless we land an impact recruit like Blue or Derosiers.
I do worry about you, however.
You are obviously still apoplectic over 2004 and 2005 five years after the fact. Given that many expect that this year may even be worse than 2004 or 2005 (which were still 19 win seasons), followed by a rebuilding year with Hayward leaving and no impact recruits on board yet to replace him, I fear what sort of insane rage you'll be in by 2011.
wow that is atruly retarded post...."lazar leaving with no impact recruits to replace him" You do realize Maymon is the heir apparent to replace lazar as in having the same type body and will most likeley fillt hte 3/4 spot ....and he was a more higly rated recruit? Not to mention Williams and Jones who were more highly rated as well. through in Buycks, DJO and Coudugan and that was a completely dumb statement
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With who we have now, we will be better next year. I have always had lower expectations for this year than most of you on this board, because I believe experience is more important than talent.
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wow that is atruly retarded post...."lazar leaving with no impact recruits to replace him" You do realize Maymon is the heir apparent to replace lazar as in having the same type body and will most likeley fillt hte 3/4 spot ....and he was a more higly rated recruit? Not to mention Williams and Jones who were more highly rated as well. through in Buycks, DJO and Coudugan and that was a completely dumb statement
Let me explain this to you, since you seem to be intellectually challenged by this simple point:
Any team finishing in 12th place and losing its best player to graduation is going to be picked to decline the following year. This shouldn't be that difficult to understand. Lose your best player--especially one that is top 5 all time scorers--and he's going to be hard to replace. Expectations will be lowered. That isn't a "retarted" statement--its common sense.
So here is my challenge to you: If you want to dispute me, please cite your examples--find me the teams that lost their best player (and one of the best ever for that school) to graduation, and were subsequently picked to move up in the standings. Pick any team/any league. Big East/ACC/Big12/Big10. Any team. Any league.
If my statement is "dumb", then you should have absolutely no problem coming up with plenty of examples of teams that were picked to improve when a great player left the team.
What you are suggesting now is that you believe that Maymon/Buycks/Williams/DJO/Cadougan* WITH Hayward define a 12th place team, but somehow can be expected to finish higher next year WITHOUT Hayward.
I think that is patently silly. Wherever we finish THIS year--whether it is 1st or 16th--if Hayward is a big part of our game, then we'll be picked to decline next year. Its that simple.
If Hayward turns into the 2nd coming of LeBron James and we win the league based on his heroics, we aren't going to be picked to repeat as champs next year. If Hayward averages 30+ per game and we still finish 15th, we're going to be picked 16th without him next year.
And, no Maymon isn't the 'heir appaent' to Hayward, because they are both ON THE TEAM THIS YEAR!!! If we don't finish better than 12th with Hayward AND Maymon, we aren't going to be picked to improve with Maymon alone next year.
The ONLY way we'll be picked to improve is if Maymon beats out Hayward for the starting job. Of course if that happens, you'll be eating crow since we'll finish much higher than 12th place.
*Yes, I know Cadougan is out for the year--but you thought we were no better than 12th even when you expected him to play.
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I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!
This is why MU should stay away from these types of players.
Lance Stephenson
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/high_school/2009/06/21/2009-06-21_end_zone_who_wants_lance.html
OJ Mayo
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3389049
Derrick Rose
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4222106
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I disagree Marquette4. I've always thought this year would be a long year. Most players take a year to get into it and learn the system, defense, etc, and most first year D-1 players hit a wall. So the first 1/3 of the season is a big learning process and then the second half of the season, for many first year players, it's the wall and fatigue. Heck, even college life and school gets easier after the first year when you know what to do, how to study better, etc, get adjusted to being away from home. This is outside of basketball. Same stuff happens on the court.
The talent is there, but they will need a season AND most players improve. WE ARE ASSIMILIATING SO MANY NEW PLAYERS OR SECOND YEAR PLAYERS that are expected to contribute big time. We will probably end up with two new guards and a new front court player starting!! How many other teams have one main player coming back this year and then looking at starting 3 new guys. If we don't see improvement next year, without adding any new players, I'd be shocked.
Who do we have back this year: WE ARE LOOKING AT ONE ESTABLISHED PLAYER (LAZAR), BUTLER as a guy with experience, and two undersized guards... and then talented new guys... this is a recipe for getting better in 2010-11!!! We loose one major talent and have young talent that I think will need a year. We also have two Bigs (Yous and Otule) who will probably benefit from a year and are probably not really ready yet.
We loose Lazar, and Cubillian and Acker. The only big loss is Lazar. That is one player. Most teams will loose more than one main player. We should have the pieces to slide into Lazar's roll so there is not a hugh drop off at his position (Maymon or Butler). Jones won't have to start. He can be integrated, and it he is really good will be a benefit.
We already have a guy rated in the top 100 in Jones. I think number 65 by rivals. This is a great start. Even if we add pieces outside the top 100, it is a better follow up to a great class then we have been used to. We may add a guy like Pinkston, who knows.
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You forgot about Mbao, just saying.
I was only listing what are considered top 100 level players. I haven't seen Mbao characterized as such anywhere.
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Ok, I'm a newbie.
ESPN has the following guys considering MU, which ones do we have a chance at:
Justin Coleman
Carson Desrosiers
Maurice Walker
Shane Southwell
Jayvaughn Pinkston
Flavien Davis
J.J. Moore
Lavonte Dority
Jesse Morgan
-Or is there a more accurate listing somewhere?
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Ok, I'm a newbie.
ESPN has the following guys considering MU, which ones do we have a chance at:
Justin Coleman
[font=Verdana]Carson Desrosiers [/font]
Maurice Walker
Shane Southwell
Jayvaughn Pinkston
Flavien Davis
J.J. Moore
Lavonte Dority
Jesse Morgan
-Or is there a more accurate listing somewhere?
Red means they are out. Check other threads out there
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So here is my challenge to you: If you want to dispute me, please cite your examples--find me the teams that lost their best player (and one of the best ever for that school) to graduation, and were subsequently picked to move up in the standings. Pick any team/any league. Big East/ACC/Big12/Big10. Any team. Any league.
This took about 3 seconds:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2006 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2006)
MU finishes in a tie for 4th.
http://collegehoopsnet.com/story/big_east_preseason_poll_all_conference
MU is picked to finish in 4th alone the year after losing Novak.
Obivously a jump from a tie for 4th to 4th alone is a very small jump, but it still is a higher finish.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2009 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2009)
Cuse finishes in 6th place.
http://www.collegehoopsvideo.com/2009/07/2009-big-east-basketball-pre-season-rankings/ (http://www.collegehoopsvideo.com/2009/07/2009-big-east-basketball-pre-season-rankings/)
Cuse picked to finish 5th, after losing Flynn (and Harris and Devendorf).
Where MU will be picked to finish in '10-'11 depends on how the team fares in '09-'10 and how the newcomers (Buycks, DJO, Maymon, EWill, Mbao) assimilate themselves. If MU has a better season than most people expect and the newcomers (along with Bulter & Otule) turn out to be pretty big contributors (like the 3 amigos were their freshmen year) then I can very easily see MU getting picked to finish higher.
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Picked to move up in the standings vs. actually moving up. I think we stand a better chance of moving up in the standing in 2010-11. Who picks us to do so pre-season is another story.
Most people voting on these pre-season ratings, even coaches who don't bother taking the time, won't know as much about this team then we will. It is the one bet in Vegas that even the experts note that fans can have an advantage: College B-ball where the fans actually know the teams better than the bookies, except for the top few teams.
I expect improvement next year without Lazar. Lazar is good, but he isn't Wade or an out of this world player. The drop off with be slight.
What team will not be loosing a great player next year in the big east? I really don't know, but most teams will be loosing at least one key player to graduation or NBA, etc. We loose one player and should have a player ready to slide into his time.
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I have full faith that Buzz will build us back into a contender. He's already proven himself as both a recruiter and coach, IMO, and I have no reason to doubt our future.
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I have full faith that Buzz will build us back into a contender. He's already proven himself as both a recruiter and coach, IMO, and I have no reason to doubt our future.
He has? I would say the jury is still out.
Last year's team performed pretty much as expected, didn't really overachieve or underachieve. Still too early to make a call on his coaching ability.
As for recruiting, outside of Jimmy Butler, who has Buzz brought in the proves he can recruit? Let's see what his first couple classes do on the court.
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He has? I would say the jury is still out.
Last year's team performed pretty much as expected, didn't really overachieve or underachieve. Still too early to make a call on his coaching ability.
As for recruiting, outside of Jimmy Butler, who has Buzz brought in the proves he can recruit? Let's see what his first couple classes do on the court.
I agree. The jury is definitely still out.
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Red means they are out. Check other threads out there
You might want to look again. Everyone of those guys should have been red except Walker and Pinkston...and they should probably be pink.
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I have full faith that Buzz will build us back into a contender. He's already proven himself as both a recruiter and coach, IMO, and I have no reason to doubt our future.
What do you mean by contender? We've been pretty darn good the last 4 years and 6 of the last 8. Do you mean national title contender or Big East contender?
I concur with others, jury very much out. We won't know for suer for a few years
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You might want to look again. Everyone of those guys should have been red except Walker and Pinkston...and they should probably be pink.
Feel free to edit. Dority the Chicago point and Davis I know of, Morgan - no clue.
You are right, pink is rare, I say medium well done.
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According to Rivals, we're one of 5 schools listed w/'07 recruit Dominic Rutledge, who attends/attended the same JC as Johnson-Odom. He's a PF and would be a junior in 2010-11.
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We were recruiting Rutledge in 2007 as well, but he was not going to qualify. I will also say the Jury is still out on both, but Buzz did a good job coaching last year. Think about the level we were playing at on a nightly basis, before DJ got hurt. Wes had his best year by far, Lazar had his best year by far and James and Mcneal with both playing great. Also they played UCONN, VILLE, CUSE, NOVA, and MIZZ right down to the wire with 3 player's, Butler who was coming on and BURKE and ACKER.
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Picked to move up in the standings vs. actually moving up. I think we stand a better chance of moving up in the standing in 2010-11. Who picks us to do so pre-season is another story.
Most people voting on these pre-season ratings, even coaches who don't bother taking the time, won't know as much about this team then we will. It is the one bet in Vegas that even the experts note that fans can have an advantage: College B-ball where the fans actually know the teams better than the bookies, except for the top few teams.
Thank you for noting the difference.
The issue for next year is that the schedule and TV matchups are based on the pre-season expectations. If you're expected to finish 12th, you aren't going to get prime TV slots. That obviously hurt us this year, and may hurt us next year as well.
And as I said before, I don't think our coach telling the world that we ought to be picked 16th gives the league any incentive to give us the benefit of the doubt.
Look at it this way--have you heard Boeheim, Dixon, Davis talking down their teams? Maybe they have and I missed it.
Compare "we ought to be picked 16th" to Boeheim's ""I'm very happy—as happy as I've ever been with a group coming back"
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-09-07/syracuses-jim-boeheim-happy-team-s-summer-progress
(http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-09-07/syracuses-jim-boeheim-happy-team-s-summer-progress)
Now, some would say that Boeheim is setting unrealistic expectations. But they're on Big Monday and have a a bunch of TV appearances this year.
I expect improvement next year without Lazar. Lazar is good, but he isn't Wade or an out of this world player. The drop off with be slight.
What team will not be loosing a great player next year in the big east? I really don't know, but most teams will be loosing at least one key player to graduation or NBA, etc. We loose one player and should have a player ready to slide into his time.
Let's take the MU emotion out of things and consider other teams that will likely lose a first team Big East player:
ND loses Harangody. Nice player, but not out of this world. Projected 2nd rounder. Do you expect ND to be better next year without him? I doubt it. People will rightly say ND has big shoes to fill, even though they'll have a lot of their roster coming back for another year.
Say WVU loses Ebanks. If Ebanks goes, WVU will be picked to drop, no doubt about it.
What if Cincy loses Yancy Gates. Does Cincy get picked higher the following year? Not very likely.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2006 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2006)
MU finishes in a tie for 4th.
http://collegehoopsnet.com/story/big_east_preseason_poll_all_conference
MU is picked to finish in 4th alone the year after losing Novak.
Obivously a jump from a tie for 4th to 4th alone is a very small jump, but it still is a higher finish.
Technically its not a jump at all. Its no change for us. Its a drop by the other teams.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2009 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2009)
Cuse finishes in 6th place.
http://www.collegehoopsvideo.com/2009/07/2009-big-east-basketball-pre-season-rankings/ (http://www.collegehoopsvideo.com/2009/07/2009-big-east-basketball-pre-season-rankings/)
Cuse picked to finish 5th, after losing Flynn (and Harris and Devendorf).
True, but Syracuse is picked that high because of the eligibility of Wesley Johnson--who most view as a proven impact player.
As I said, we can move up despite losing Hayward if we land a perceived impact player to take his place.
MU (as of now) doesn't have such a player projected to come in next year.
Where MU will be picked to finish in '10-'11 depends on how the team fares in '09-'10 and how the newcomers (Buycks, DJO, Maymon, EWill, Mbao) assimilate themselves. If MU has a better season than most people expect and the newcomers (along with Bulter & Otule) turn out to be pretty big contributors (like the 3 amigos were their freshmen year) then I can very easily see MU getting picked to finish higher.
Exactly. If we finish 12th or 13th THIS season, our newcomers won't be given much credit for being able to lift us NEXT season.
As above, for illustration let's take the MU bias out of the equation. Look at Rutgers. Their key players--Rosario and Echinique--are a year more experienced. You would expect them to improve now that they're sophomores. Yet, RU is picked to finish 15th. Again.
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We were recruiting Rutledge in 2007 as well, but he was not going to qualify. I will also say the Jury is still out on both, but Buzz did a good job coaching last year. Think about the level we were playing at on a nightly basis, before DJ got hurt. Wes had his best year by far, Lazar had his best year by far and James and Mcneal with both playing great. Also they played UCONN, VILLE, CUSE, NOVA, and MIZZ right down to the wire with 3 player's, Butler who was coming on and BURKE and ACKER.
I want to see how Buzz does with a younger team, and not a bunch of returners, before we anoint him as a good coach. Sports is filled with examples of replacement coaches with veteran teams that play well in year one. Let's see how he does with his guys.
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I guess I should clarify with "back to a contender." We've been great the last few years, and are now picked 12th in the BE. I believe that within a year or two, we will once again be projected near the top of the conference perennially.
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Technically its not a jump at all. Its no change for us. Its a drop by the other teams.
True, but Syracuse is picked that high because of the eligibility of Wesley Johnson--who most view as a proven impact player.
As I said, we can move up despite losing Hayward if we land a perceived impact player to take his place.
MU (as of now) doesn't have such a player projected to come in next year.
Exactly. If we finish 12th or 13th THIS season, our newcomers won't be given much credit for being able to lift us NEXT season.
As above, for illustration let's take the MU bias out of the equation. Look at Rutgers. Their key players--Rosario and Echinique--are a year more experienced. You would expect them to improve now that they're sophomores. Yet, RU is picked to finish 15th. Again.
Actually, technically being picked 4th from a tie for 4th (or 5th or 6th, however you want to look at it) is a jump. You asked for examples and I provided two off the top of head. I guarantee there are a ton more examples just going back 10 years or so.
Like I said, if MU exceeds expectations next year and the players that will return in '10-'11 contribute to that success, I very well think you could see MU be picked higher than they finished (just like the expectations prior to the amigo's sophomore year, when Hayward was the only top 100-type talent coming in to replace Novak).
Rutgers has been garbage for a long time. Until they start showing something on the court they will continue to be picked for the dregs of the conference, as that's usually where they end up.
The idea that MU isn't on tv much this year because of some of Buzz's comments is quite the jump. MU isn't picked to finish high this year, that's why they aren't being televised much.
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Actually, technically being picked 4th from a tie for 4th (or 5th or 6th, however you want to look at it) is a jump. You asked for examples and I provided two off the top of head. I guarantee there are a ton more examples just going back 10 years or so.
Fine. If we finish 12th this year, the pre-season polls next year will reflect a big jump--all the way to 12th place.
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I want to see how Buzz does with a younger team, and not a bunch of returners, before we anoint him as a good coach. Sports is filled with examples of replacement coaches with veteran teams that play well in year one. Let's see how he does with his guys.
Charlie Wiess is a good example....
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Thank you for noting the difference.
The issue for next year is that the schedule and TV matchups are based on the pre-season expectations. If you're expected to finish 12th, you aren't going to get prime TV slots. That obviously hurt us this year, and may hurt us next year as well.
And as I said before, I don't think our coach telling the world that we ought to be picked 16th gives the league any incentive to give us the benefit of the doubt.
Look at it this way--have you heard Boeheim, Dixon, Davis talking down their teams? Maybe they have and I missed it.
Compare "we ought to be picked 16th" to Boeheim's ""I'm very happy—as happy as I've ever been with a group coming back"
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-09-07/syracuses-jim-boeheim-happy-team-s-summer-progress
(http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-09-07/syracuses-jim-boeheim-happy-team-s-summer-progress)
Now, some would say that Boeheim is setting unrealistic expectations. But they're on Big Monday and have a a bunch of TV appearances this year.
Let's take the MU emotion out of things and consider other teams that will likely lose a first team Big East player:
ND loses Harangody. Nice player, but not out of this world. Projected 2nd rounder. Do you expect ND to be better next year without him? I doubt it. People will rightly say ND has big shoes to fill, even though they'll have a lot of their roster coming back for another year.
Say WVU loses Ebanks. If Ebanks goes, WVU will be picked to drop, no doubt about it.
What if Cincy loses Yancy Gates. Does Cincy get picked higher the following year? Not very likely.
Technically its not a jump at all. Its no change for us. Its a drop by the other teams.
True, but Syracuse is picked that high because of the eligibility of Wesley Johnson--who most view as a proven impact player.
As I said, we can move up despite losing Hayward if we land a perceived impact player to take his place.
MU (as of now) doesn't have such a player projected to come in next year.
Exactly. If we finish 12th or 13th THIS season, our newcomers won't be given much credit for being able to lift us NEXT season.
As above, for illustration let's take the MU bias out of the equation. Look at Rutgers. Their key players--Rosario and Echinique--are a year more experienced. You would expect them to improve now that they're sophomores. Yet, RU is picked to finish 15th. Again.
TLDR
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Of course, it might help if we had someone lobbying for that exposure. For some reason, when our previous coach worked to get MU on TV it was regarded as a character flaw under the specious argument that he ALSO got TV coverage.
Well, now we're paying the price of Buzz's "brutal honesty." Making public statements that your team deserves to be picked 16th at the very time the league is determining the TV schedule gives the league a perfect excuse to give MU the barest minimum of coverage.
With our former coach lobbying so well on our behalf and coming off a bad year in CUSA we got 3 Nat'l game in 05-06 (1 ESPN, 2 ESPNUs).
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/101905aaa.html
I'll make sure to hold Buzz to that standard, 1 ESPN...2 ESPNUs...hope Buzz is up for that "challenge".