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Author Topic: What is Going on?  (Read 27130 times)

Ready2Fly

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2009, 02:39:53 PM »

Buycks and DJO are not "top 100" recruits.  They certainly weren't coming out of high school.

They are top 100 LEVEL players, which is what my post said.  Hoopscoop had them at that level.  I know Hoopscoop isn't as respected by some, so I'll go by ESPN grades.  Buycks was given a 94, which was a higher grade than Maymon, Williams, or Cadougan got.  He committed to MU over Memphis, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Illinois.  DJO wasn't rated by ESPN becuase they didn't see him play, but he chose MU over Pitt and Kentucky.  So they may not have been top 100 recruits in a nominal sense, but they are certainly considered top 100 LEVEL players.

rocky_warrior

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2009, 02:45:19 PM »
The only way we'd move up in the pre-season expectations next year is if we land a player like Derosiers, Blue or Cameron Clark.

Or, *gasp* do better than 12th or 13th place in the BE this year.

Hards Alumni

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2009, 03:50:17 PM »
Everyone needs to put down the kool-aid here...

Did you really expect Buzz to follow up a Top-Rated '09 recruiting class with four ESPN Top 100's in '10!?!?

Don't get me wrong, I was very hopeful.  But we're not UNC or KU, we don't reload with All-Americans every year.

The real positive that everyone seems to be missing is that Buzz and his staff got us IN on so many top talents.  I really don't recall a year where MU had so many highly regarded players listing us in their FINAL 3...that's a big deal!

Part of the reason Buzz was able to attract the talent he did this year was BECAUSE there was a great deal of playing time available.  The fact that he got top talents to consider us again this year is a small feat in and of itself. 

The national signing day is still over a month out...so let's all keep our fingers crossed and see how everything pans out...

so, no coffee for Buzz?

Marquette84

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2009, 04:52:02 PM »
Or, *gasp* do better than 12th or 13th place in the BE this year.

Well, I've tried previously to make that case. ;) 

Not only does nobody agree with me, but my merely suggesting that we should finish better than 12th or 13th was considered "having an agenda."


Brewtown Andy

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2009, 06:37:27 PM »
You can effectively move Cadougan to the 2010 class now.  I'm assuming he will be medically red shirted, so his eligibility begins along with Jamail Jones.

That leaves a class of Maymon, Williams, DJO and Buycks

followed by Cadougan, Jones, and ...

One more top 100 for the 2010 class, and that will give MU a year with seven top 100 level players, followed by a year with six.  The sky is not falling.

You forgot about Mbao, just saying.
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MUSF

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2009, 08:17:52 PM »
Hayward WTF?

Believe it or not, every piece of analysis on our current coach isn't a comparison to our old coach.  You say you want everyone to accept and respect our great new coach but you seem to be the one who can't let the old coach go. 

Tom Crean has nothing to do with Buzz's upcoming recruiting classes.  He is going to have to continue building winners at MU no matter what happened 3 or 5 years ago or what is currently happening in Bloomington.  If Buzz wins 8 games next year and TC wins 7 you would be on this board telling us how much better off we are.  I personally don't give a damn what TC does at IU, but Buzz better keep MU consistently in the top third of the BE, in the NCAAs, and compete for a conference title/legit chance at elite eight every 3-4 years.  If Buzz can't do that, then he will be a disappointment if he does, then I will have no complaints.

MR.HAYWARD

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2009, 09:30:43 PM »
How impressive will our newcomers be if they don't manage to finish better than 12th or 13th THIS year, when paired with Lazar Hayward?  

Rutger's newcomers were impressive last year--yet the team finished near the basement.  Anyone picking them to move up this year?  I don't think so.  And they didn't lose anyone on par with Hayward.  

And we've already been down the road that newcomers can't be counted on to generate hype.  Junior's hype THIS year--when 100% healthy and paired with Hayward--has led to projections of 12th or 13th place.  

Yet you think NEXT year--when Junior hasn't played competitively for a year and coming off a VERY serious injury -- AND we lose one of MU's top five all time scorers in Hayward -- well at that point expectations will be much higher, even though the core of the returning team will be coming off a 12th or 13th place finish?

Here's what I think:  when you only return 3 starters (and lose your best player) from a 12th or 13th place team, and don't have any instant impact recruits, then very very few people will think that you are improving.  

Lets face it, Jones might be a nice player--eventually--but he's certainly not going to be any more highly regarded than this year's recruits.

The only way we'd move up in the pre-season expectations next year is if we land a player like Derosiers, Blue or Cameron Clark.




i guess you are right and have me convinced .  Mu might as well just fold up the program and there is nothing left for you to do but kill yourself.

MR.HAYWARD

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2009, 09:37:54 PM »
Hayward WTF?

Believe it or not, every piece of analysis on our current coach isn't a comparison to our old coach.  You say you want everyone to accept and respect our great new coach but you seem to be the one who can't let the old coach go. 

Tom Crean has nothing to do with Buzz's upcoming recruiting classes.  He is going to have to continue building winners at MU no matter what happened 3 or 5 years ago or what is currently happening in Bloomington.  If Buzz wins 8 games next year and TC wins 7 you would be on this board telling us how much better off we are.  I personally don't give a damn what TC does at IU, but Buzz better keep MU consistently in the top third of the BE, in the NCAAs, and compete for a conference title/legit chance at elite eight every 3-4 years.  If Buzz can't do that, then he will be a disappointment if he does, then I will have no complaints.


i dont disagree with you merely pointing out that in Tom Crean's 5th and 6th years with the program we were freaking terrible, simply terrible terrible rrecruitng class after terrible recruitng class no skill or talent to speak of to the point we got embarrassed at home by a MAc school and we struggling to score 40 a night.   Yet those same people that thought Tom crean was so great and therefore that was clearly accpetabl in years 5 and 6 are now saying Buzz better recruit big time year in and year out and win big time year in and year out or it is not accepatble.   

wow double standard.  Crean went to the NCAA's barely 50% of the time.  I will agree Crean took over a team with barely any returning talent.  I say what is different for Buzz this year?  He might have Lazar but he competiton is also much better.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2009, 10:02:42 PM »
Remember what Buzz said in Chicago last week

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15463.0

He then said that he has been on the road recruiting as the recruiting window opened on September 9.  He got back Monday night and while he could not talk about it, he said that MU is now in places it has never been before.  Buzz said that November 16 is the first day to sign LOI and seem to IMPLY that this would be “a big day for MU.”  No further details.

Can we wait a few more weeks and see what happens first?

MUSF

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2009, 10:08:24 PM »

i dont disagree with you merely pointing out that in Tom Crean's 5th and 6th years with the program we were freaking terrible, simply terrible terrible rrecruitng class after terrible recruitng class no skill or talent to speak of to the point we got embarrassed at home by a MAc school and we struggling to score 40 a night.   Yet those same people that thought Tom crean was so great and therefore that was clearly accpetabl in years 5 and 6 are now saying Buzz better recruit big time year in and year out and win big time year in and year out or it is not accepatble.   

wow double standard.  Crean went to the NCAA's barely 50% of the time.  I will agree Crean took over a team with barely any returning talent.  I say what is different for Buzz this year?  He might have Lazar but he competiton is also much better.

Again, you are making the Buzz/Crean comparison, not me.  With the program Buzz Williams inherited, he needs to generally do the things I listed to be successful.  Each coach is evaluated on what he does with the program he inherits, not the one his predecessors inherited.  How many years in a row have we made the tourney now?  Are you telling me that you are willing to give Buzz 3-4 years until our next appearance?  Buzz is not allowed to play the I took over a sinking ship card that TC did, so drop the comparisons already.  Buzz will be held to a higher standard in his first 3-4 years than TC was.  And honestly, he should be.

pillardean

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2009, 10:25:50 PM »
Remember what Buzz said in Chicago last week

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15463.0

He then said that he has been on the road recruiting as the recruiting window opened on September 9.  He got back Monday night and while he could not talk about it, he said that MU is now in places it has never been before.  Buzz said that November 16 is the first day to sign LOI and seem to IMPLY that this would be “a big day for MU.”  No further details.

Can we wait a few more weeks and see what happens first?

Thank you.

Marquette University, Spring '08

Golden Avalanche

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2009, 10:38:40 PM »
Recruiting is what wins in college basketball. This is supposed to Buzz's MO. He needs to close something here or he will end up like Crean with one great class followed up by duds.

+1.

It's been a bad couple of days recruiting-wise for Marquette basketball.

Marquette84

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2009, 11:37:38 PM »
i guess you are right and have me convinced .  Mu might as well just fold up the program and there is nothing left for you to do but kill yourself.

Don't worry about me--I'm just pointing out the obvious:  If we finish 13th we won't be picked any higher next year unless we land an impact recruit like Blue or Derosiers.

I do worry about you, however.

You are obviously still apoplectic over 2004 and 2005 five years after the fact.  Given that many expect that this year may even be worse than 2004 or 2005 (which were still 19 win seasons), followed by a rebuilding year with Hayward leaving and no impact recruits on board yet to replace him, I fear what sort of insane rage you'll be in by 2011. 





Rockmic87

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2009, 12:19:17 AM »
I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!

MUfan12

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2009, 12:21:08 AM »
I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!

Really?

Brewtown Andy

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2009, 02:03:24 AM »
I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!

You do realize that the NCAA has already started to circle around USC while already landing on Memphis, right?
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2009, 07:58:02 AM »

i dont disagree with you merely pointing out that in Tom Crean's 5th and 6th years with the program we were freaking terrible, simply terrible terrible rrecruitng class after terrible recruitng class no skill or talent to speak of to the point we got embarrassed at home by a MAc school and we struggling to score 40 a night.   Yet those same people that thought Tom crean was so great and therefore that was clearly accpetabl in years 5 and 6 are now saying Buzz better recruit big time year in and year out and win big time year in and year out or it is not accepatble.   

wow double standard.  Crean went to the NCAA's barely 50% of the time.  I will agree Crean took over a team with barely any returning talent.  I say what is different for Buzz this year?  He might have Lazar but he competiton is also much better.

Tom Crean is not the only measuring stick to use.

There are hundreds of D1 coaches out there. Surely you can find another one to make a legit comparison with Buzz.

How about Sean Miller after he took over for Thad Motta? How about Jamie Dixon after he took over for Howland?

You obviously don't like Crean, which is fine, but then don't bring him up in multiple threads if you dislike him so much.

Buzz is going to be evaluated for what he does. What Crean did in year 5 and/or what Crean is doing now has little/no effect on how Buzz will be viewed. The program is different now than in 1999.

Hards Alumni

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2009, 07:58:41 AM »
Remember what Buzz said in Chicago last week

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15463.0

He then said that he has been on the road recruiting as the recruiting window opened on September 9.  He got back Monday night and while he could not talk about it, he said that MU is now in places it has never been before.  Buzz said that November 16 is the first day to sign LOI and seem to IMPLY that this would be “a big day for MU.”  No further details.

Can we wait a few more weeks and see what happens first?

What kind of coach/recruiter would he be if he said it wouldn't be a big day for MU?

basically, he just said one of those things that every head coach has to say.

Brewtown Andy

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2009, 08:05:55 AM »
What kind of coach/recruiter would he be if he said it wouldn't be a big day for MU?

basically, he just said one of those things that every head coach has to say.

Buzz is also painfully honest.  If he didn't actually mean that, he wouldn't have said it.
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Hards Alumni

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2009, 08:13:30 AM »
Buzz is also painfully honest.  If he didn't actually mean that, he wouldn't have said it.

a very valid point.

MR.HAYWARD

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2009, 08:16:35 AM »
Don't worry about me--I'm just pointing out the obvious:  If we finish 13th we won't be picked any higher next year unless we land an impact recruit like Blue or Derosiers.

I do worry about you, however.

You are obviously still apoplectic over 2004 and 2005 five years after the fact.  Given that many expect that this year may even be worse than 2004 or 2005 (which were still 19 win seasons), followed by a rebuilding year with Hayward leaving and no impact recruits on board yet to replace him, I fear what sort of insane rage you'll be in by 2011. 







wow that is atruly retarded post...."lazar leaving with no impact recruits to replace him"       You do realize Maymon is the heir apparent to replace lazar as in having the same type body and will most likeley fillt hte 3/4 spot ....and he was a more higly rated recruit?  Not to mention Williams and Jones who were more highly rated as well.     through in Buycks, DJO and Coudugan and that was a completely dumb statement

bilsu

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2009, 08:31:20 AM »
With who we have now, we will be better next year. I have always had lower expectations for this year than most of you on this board, because I believe experience is more important than talent.

Marquette84

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2009, 09:11:48 AM »

wow that is atruly retarded post...."lazar leaving with no impact recruits to replace him"       You do realize Maymon is the heir apparent to replace lazar as in having the same type body and will most likeley fillt hte 3/4 spot ....and he was a more higly rated recruit?  Not to mention Williams and Jones who were more highly rated as well.     through in Buycks, DJO and Coudugan and that was a completely dumb statement

Let me explain this to you, since you seem to be intellectually challenged by this simple point:

Any team finishing in 12th place and losing its best player to graduation is going to be picked to decline the following year.  This shouldn't be that difficult to understand.  Lose your best player--especially one that is top 5 all time scorers--and he's going to be hard to replace.  Expectations will be lowered.  That isn't a "retarted" statement--its common sense.

So here is my challenge to you:  If you want to dispute me, please cite your examples--find me the teams that lost their best player (and one of the best ever for that school) to graduation, and were subsequently picked to move up in the standings.  Pick any team/any league.  Big East/ACC/Big12/Big10.  Any team.  Any league. 

If my statement is "dumb", then you should have absolutely no problem coming up with plenty of examples of teams that were picked to improve when a great player left the team. 

What you are suggesting now is that you believe that Maymon/Buycks/Williams/DJO/Cadougan* WITH Hayward define a 12th place team, but somehow can be expected to finish higher next year WITHOUT Hayward.   

I think that is patently silly.  Wherever we finish THIS year--whether it is 1st or 16th--if Hayward is a big part of our game, then we'll be picked to decline next year.   Its that simple.   

If Hayward turns into the 2nd coming of LeBron James and we win the league based on his heroics, we aren't going to be picked to repeat as champs next year.  If Hayward averages 30+ per game and we still finish 15th, we're going to be picked 16th without him next year.   

And, no Maymon isn't the 'heir appaent' to Hayward, because they are both ON THE TEAM THIS YEAR!!!  If we don't finish better than 12th with Hayward AND Maymon, we aren't going to be picked to improve with Maymon alone next year.

The ONLY way we'll be picked to improve is if Maymon beats out Hayward for the starting job.  Of course if that happens, you'll be eating crow since we'll finish much higher than 12th place.


*Yes, I know Cadougan is out for the year--but you thought we were no better than 12th even when you expected him to play.









reinko

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2009, 09:34:17 AM »
I'd personally wouldn't mind seeing MU take a chance on a Lance stephenson/OJ Mayp/Derrick Rose, one and done type player!

This is why MU should stay away from these types of players.

Lance Stephenson
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/high_school/2009/06/21/2009-06-21_end_zone_who_wants_lance.html

OJ Mayo
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3389049

Derrick Rose
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4222106

GOO

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Re: What is Going on?
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2009, 09:38:33 AM »
I disagree Marquette4.  I've always thought this year would be a long year. Most players take a year to get into it and learn the system, defense, etc, and most first year D-1 players hit a wall.  So the first 1/3 of the season is a big learning process and then the second half of the season, for many first year players, it's the wall and fatigue.  Heck, even college life and school gets easier after the first year when you know what to do, how to study better, etc, get adjusted to being away from home.  This is outside of basketball.  Same stuff happens on the court.  
  
The talent is there, but they will need a season AND most players improve.  WE ARE ASSIMILIATING SO MANY NEW PLAYERS OR SECOND YEAR PLAYERS that are expected to contribute big time.  We will probably end up with two new guards and a new front court player starting!!  How many other teams have one main player coming back this year and then looking at starting 3 new guys.  If we don't see improvement next year, without adding any new players, I'd be shocked.
  
Who do we have back this year: WE ARE LOOKING AT ONE ESTABLISHED PLAYER (LAZAR), BUTLER as a guy with experience, and two undersized guards... and then talented new guys... this is a recipe for getting better in 2010-11!!!  We loose one major talent and have young talent that I think will need a year.  We also have two Bigs (Yous and Otule) who will probably benefit from a year and are probably not really ready yet.  

We loose Lazar, and Cubillian and Acker.  The only big loss is Lazar.  That is one player.  Most teams will loose more than one main player.  We should have the pieces to slide into Lazar's roll so there is not a hugh drop off at his position (Maymon or Butler).  Jones won't have to start.  He can be integrated, and it he is really good will be a benefit.

We already have a guy rated in the top 100 in Jones.  I think number 65 by rivals.  This is a great start.  Even if we add pieces outside the top 100, it is a better follow up to a great class then we have been used to.  We may add a guy like Pinkston, who knows.

 

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