4Ever, send me your address in an email - you win

[ChicosBailBonds]

I owe you something from the state of fruits and nuts as not only did two MU players not go to the NBA, but not even one did.

This is where I think not having Crean hurt, his contacts in the NBA I think got Diener and Novak drafted in the 2nd round.  Shame neither one got drafted tonight, have to assume they'll get invited to some NBA camps.  At least now they get to choose a team that may suit their needs.

[BrewCity83]

I was wondering the same thing this morning...whether Crean's PR machine could've hyped one or some of the Amigos into getting drafted.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Chicos -- You don't think Crean was working for these guys this year? He desperately wanted one of them to get drafted so he could get another few paragraphs in the media guide.

[GGGG]

The reason Novak and Diener were drafted, and the amigos weren't, wasn't because of the lack of TC's PR.  It was because those two are much more consistent outside shooters.

Diener's MU 3 pt. FG% was 41%.  Novak's 46%.  McNeal and Matthews were about 34%.  James was 29%. 

If you can't shoot consistently, there isn't much room for you as a guard on an NBA roster unless you are a freakish athlete - and none of the three are.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I agree with that. And Novak is 6'10"!

[Big Papi]

If you can't shoot consistently, there isn't much room for you as a guard on an NBA roster unless you are a freakish athlete - and none of the three are.

I think most would say that James is a freakish athlete but his injury and his inability to improve his shooting killed any chances he had of getting drafted.

Matthews needed to be a way better shooter and McNeal is a tweener.  If McNeal had better point guard skills, he would have been drafted but considering how much his game has improved and his desire to work on his game, I have a feeling that one way or another he will make it on an NBA roster sometime soon.

[Nukem2]

I agree with that. And Novak is 6'10"!

I agree as well.  In the NBA, you need size and a shot for sure.  Both Steve and Travis have adequate size and are outstading outside shooters.  The Amigos simply are either too small and are tweeners with no shot.  Simple as that.  The NBA is what it is, FBOW.  In the meatime, these 3 have a chance to make a nice living in europe after excellent college careers.

[LastWarrior]

Dumb post... really... Crean's PR??  Come on dude...

[The Lens]

Jerel worked out for 14 teams and was at the higher end Chicago Draft Camp, plus 1st team All Big East, MU's Leading Scorer...scouts knew he was; maybe that was the problem.

[MR.HAYWARD]

James had the athleticsm just not the shot.

Cream's PR machine like others said is not why Diener and Novak got drafted and other posters are right...i just read an article the other day where Crean was actively making calls for the 3 amigos.  

Bottom line and many may not want to hear it but the reason Jerel did not get drafted is no ones fault but Jerels.  Jerel is as poor a decision maker as I have ever seen in collge basketball.  And that is a huge huge statement but it is dead nuts seriously true.  His decision making was so incredibly woeful that he bacame hard to watch for me.  he as a senior in coolege had the decision making prowess of a middle school aau player. I will be the first to say he got better but he was still simply terrible....many many mnay poor shot selection decisions even though more of them went in this year... the Nova game and and others will simply turn off GM's.  He was an absolute trainwreck in transition with the ball.

Had he played on a more talented team where he did not absolutely have to be on the court and was subbed for every time he made such a stupid deciosn he would have been forced to be a smarter player but he never did and had probaly the worst basketball IQ in collge basketball the last 3-4 years.   bottom line is there were alot of guards drafted at the end of the draft that were similar players to McNeal and actaully maybe lesser players in many areas but I know and beleive that his horrendous decision making kept him from gettign drafted

[Lennys Tap]

I owe you something from the state of fruits and nuts as not only did two MU players not go to the NBA, but not even one did.

This is where I think not having Crean hurt, his contacts in the NBA I think got Diener and Novak drafted in the 2nd round.  Shame neither one got drafted tonight, have to assume they'll get invited to some NBA camps.  At least now they get to choose a team that may suit their needs.

What about when TC used "his contacts in the NBA" to get Wade drafted as the 5th overall pick in the 1ST round? How he pulled that off still blows me away.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It was more of a rhetorical question, I don't think anyone knows whether it hurt or not.  I don't know nor does anyone.  It certainly didn't hurt with TC's connections to the NBA in getting folks to look at players.  Does Buzz have the same connections? I have no idea.

That's all I said.  Crean is tight with a ton of NBA guys and that is going to afford folks different opportunities.  It's reality.

Take a look at the kid the Brewers just drafted.  Would the kid have still been drafted out of Indiana?  Of course.  Would he have gone to the Brewers without the conversations and input from Crean?  Maybe.  Did it hurt the kid that those conversations happened between Crean and Melvin?  Absolutely not.

That's my point, especially in the second round when teams are taking flyers on kids.  Those kind of relationships can put one kid over the top.

Your comments on Wade.....well just idiotic but I think you know that already.

[Lighthouse 84]

What about when TC used "his contacts in the NBA" to get Wade drafted as the 5th overall pick in the 1ST round? How he pulled that off still blows me away.

I was going to ask if you meant for your post to be in teal, because it doesn't show as teal.  When I quoted it to reply, it shows you intended this comment in teal.....glad to know you aren't brain dead Lenny

[Lennys Tap]

It was more of a rhetorical question, I don't think anyone knows whether it hurt or not.  I don't know nor does anyone.  It certainly didn't hurt with TC's connections to the NBA in getting folks to look at players.  Does Buzz have the same connections? I have no idea.

That's all I said.  Crean is tight with a ton of NBA guys and that is going to afford folks different opportunities.  It's reality.

Take a look at the kid the Brewers just drafted.  Would the kid have still been drafted out of Indiana?  Of course.  Would he have gone to the Brewers without the conversations and input from Crean?  Maybe.  Did it hurt the kid that those conversations happened between Crean and Melvin?  Absolutely not.

That's my point, especially in the second round when teams are taking flyers on kids.  Those kind of relationships can put one kid over the top.

Your comments on Wade.....well just idiotic but I think you know that already.

I'm confused. Originally you say "This is where I think not having Crean hurt" and that "his contacts in the NBA got Diener and Novak drafted". No "rhetorical question" to be found. In fact, no question of any kind. Just a simple statement Crean was responsible for Diener and Novak being drafted and that you think his departure hurt the triplet's chances. Then you backtrack and say nobody knows and there's no way to know whether Crean can influence the process in any way, shape or form. Huh?

My comment on Wade was sarcastic, not idiotic. What's idiotic is anyone believing that NBA teams (businesses worth hundreds of millions of dollars) who spend millions on scouting and conduct private workouts for any potential draftee will pick or not pick a player because the GM is pals with the kids college coach.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Chicos is notorious for saying one thing and then backtracking and saying he really meant it in a wholly different context than what he actually said.   You are dead on right a franchise worth hundreds of millions of dollars does not draft kids a sa  favor.  Mybe work them out and Jerel was worked out by almost half of the teams in the draft.

The entire post started in absolutely chicos fashion....that is to heap all kinds of praise and insuate that anything that did not turn out seashells and ballons is most likely becuase Crean is gone and had he still been here things would have come out better.    yep sounds like chicos....straight out of the Bill Clinton school of debate.

[mviale]

It was more of a rhetorical question, I don't think anyone knows whether it hurt or not.  I don't know nor does anyone.  It certainly didn't hurt with TC's connections to the NBA in getting folks to look at players.  Does Buzz have the same connections? I have no idea.

That's all I said.  Crean is tight with a ton of NBA guys and that is going to afford folks different opportunities.  It's reality.

Take a look at the kid the Brewers just drafted.  Would the kid have still been drafted out of Indiana?  Of course.  Would he have gone to the Brewers without the conversations and input from Crean?  Maybe.  Did it hurt the kid that those conversations happened between Crean and Melvin?  Absolutely not.

That's my point, especially in the second round when teams are taking flyers on kids.  Those kind of relationships can put one kid over the top.

Your comments on Wade.....well just idiotic but I think you know that already.

Crean's PR Machine would have benefitted from more pro players in the NBA.   Maybe if the PR machine was able to attract some quality bigs, we would have made our own headlines with sweet 16 and elite 8 births over the past 5 years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Crean's PR Machine would have benefitted from more pro players in the NBA.   Maybe if the PR machine was able to attract some quality bigs, we would have made our own headlines with sweet 16 and elite 8 births over the past 5 years.

Maybe we would have earned more births (sic), but then again when you consider Raymonds, Majerus, Dukiet, O'Neill, Deane combined managed one Sweet 16 and zero Elite 8 berths in the previous 25 years, I guess I find it a bit of a stretch to suggest they just fall off trees around here.

Crean got us to one Final Four (and by definition a Sweet 16 and Elite 8).  Something no one else has done in MU's time except for Al McGuire.  Crean missed out on one other Sweet 16 with 1 second left in OT against a top 10 team in Stanford.  That's the way the cookie crumbles.   My suspicion is that he'll land a few Sweet 16's at IU with probably a bit more regularity then at MU, but time will ultimately tell.

As for MU, let's hope Buzz can continue what Crean had done, whether it was with or without that PR help, since really only one guy did anything better at MU in the last 50 years of coaching.

[mviale]

Maybe we would have earned more births (sic), but then again when you consider Raymonds, Majerus, Dukiet, O'Neill, Deane combined managed one Sweet 16 and zero Elite 8 berths in the previous 25 years, I guess I find it a bit of a stretch to suggest they just fall off trees around here.

Crean got us to one Final Four (and by definition a Sweet 16 and Elite 8).  Something no one else has done in MU's time except for Al McGuire.  Crean missed out on one other Sweet 16 with 1 second left in OT against a top 10 team in Stanford.  That's the way the cookie crumbles.   My suspicion is that he'll land a few Sweet 16's at IU with probably a bit more regularity then at MU, but time will ultimately tell.

As for MU, let's hope Buzz can continue what Crean had done, whether it was with or without that PR help, since really only one guy did anything better at MU in the last 50 years of coaching.

+1  Chicos, if we were able to reach the sweet 16, elite 8 or final four in the last 5 years, these guys would have been drafted early with their own headlines. 

[MUBasketball]

Take a look at the kid the Brewers just drafted.  Would the kid have still been drafted out of Indiana?  Of course.  Would he have gone to the Brewers without the conversations and input from Crean?  Maybe.  Did it hurt the kid that those conversations happened between Crean and Melvin?  Absolutely not.

You think the Brewers selected the kid from Indiana because Tom Crean recommended him? As in Tom Crean the basketball coach? A basketball coach convinced a MLB team to draft a kid from the school he coaches basketball?

Puff, puff, pass...

[ZiggysFryBoy]

back to the original topic, 4never's email is:

mjacksonsleftovers@hotmail.com

or

editor@playgirl.com

[Marquette84]

If one puts personal feelings about Crean aside, one would have to acknowledge that Crean would have had more influence than Buzz did. 

There are some very strong, practical reasons why Crean as coach this past year may have helped McNeal, James and Matthews in the NBA draft--and they go beyond purely "PR":

1.  Crean's offense was based on NBA sets.  It's not a stretch to think that players under such a system may have received better evaluation by scouts during the season, and may be better prepared for the pre-draft camps than they were under Buzz's college-oriented offense.  This is one that seems pretty self-evident--if you play an NBA-style offense in college, you'll be better prepared to actually get to the NBA. 

2.  Crean's connections in the NBA may have provided him with better access to in-season guidance to pass along to his players on what they need to work to better prepare themselves. Its not inconceivable that one of Crean's connections would casually tell him "Jerel needs to work on X" or Wes "needs to do better at Y".   Lacking such connections, Buzz would not be receive such casual information, thus not be in a position to pass it along to his players--not because he didn't want to, or wouldn't be willing to pass it along, but simply because he doesn't have the connections that enable him to receive it.

3.  A coach's recommendations are going to mean more once that coach has earned a reputation.  College coaches are asked about the non-game aspects of a player--do they have a strong work ethic, are they open to coaching, can they change a habit or flaw in some aspect of their game, what kind of person are they, etc.  First Crean has a track record with Wade, Novak and Diener--and assuming that he didn't lie about them, probably would have been able to offer a stronger recommendation than Buzz.  Second, Buzz only had one year with the MU players--even if he had a strong track record, he simply isn't in a position to comment on a player's behavior over time.

4.  Crean has seen more future NBA players at MSU and Marquette than Buzz has seen over his career. As far as I know Buzz's exposure to pro players was limited to Acie Law and Antione Wright.  Crean had Wade, Novak, and Diener at MU, plus Charlie Bell, Zach Randolph, Mateen Cleaves, Morris Peterson, Jamie Feick, Steve Smith and Matt Steigenga as an MSU assistant, and Vonteego Cummings from his time under Ralph Willard at Pittsburgh.   Therefore Crean can offer scouts a wider range of players when making direct comparisons of his current players to those who have made an NBA roster.  Frankly, he's going to have more credibility in making those comparison than Buzz could, simply because Buzz has not seen as many future NBA players over his coaching career.

[4everwarriors]

Give me a freakin' break. The only way Crean could have helped would have been by recruiting some additional BE caliber players to go with DJ, Wes, and Jerel. No one in the NBA gives a rat's ass about TC or his opinions regarding who they draft. It can be argued that Crean's leaving actually helped the 3 seniors rather than hurting them.

[77ncaachamps]

Give me a freakin' break. The only way Crean could have helped would have been by recruiting some additional BE caliber players to go with DJ, Wes, and Jerel. No one in the NBA gives a rat's ass about TC or his opinions regarding who they draft. It can be argued that Crean's leaving actually helped the 3 seniors rather than hurting them.

So true are the bolded statements.

But there's something called ceiling and McNeal reached his (or close to it). DJ's is still high but questionably attainable.

Watch out for Wes's. I truly think he will be the best pro of them all.

Also, I believe that the NBA does care about college coaches' opinions. Coach K is highly esteemed. To his credit, he attracts and coaches well-disciplined players and gets a good number of them into the League...INITIALLY. IMHO, to be critical of him, he doesn't produce enough NBA players in proportion to the high level of talent that goes through his doors.

That said, Wade was a lottery pick DESPITE the Crean Machine.

Diener was a reach but he and Novak fell where productive senior scorers and leaders fall...in the second round. And I think their selections are the basis for the criticism of McNeal and Wes's non-selection.

[Lennys Tap]

Give me a freakin' break. The only way Crean could have helped would have been by recruiting some additional BE caliber players to go with DJ, Wes, and Jerel. No one in the NBA gives a rat's ass about TC or his opinions regarding who they draft. It can be argued that Crean's leaving actually helped the 3 seniors rather than hurting them.

+ 1 trillion (recent events have rendered millions and billions small change and irrelevant)

[Marquette84]

Quote from: 4everwarriors on Today at 03:55:52 PM
Give me a freakin' break. The only way Crean could have helped would have been by recruiting some additional BE caliber players to go with DJ, Wes, and Jerel. No one in the NBA gives a rat's ass about TC or his opinions regarding who they draft. It can be argued that Crean's leaving actually helped the 3 seniors rather than hurting them.

+ 1 trillion (recent events have rendered millions and billions small change and irrelevant)

I wish you guys would give me a break from your reflexive anti-Crean sentiments.  As I said, you might not like Crean--it appears you are unable to have a rational discussion without letting him infulence ytour thoughts.

Lets take him out of the picture. 

If YOU were a college player, which coach would YOU think helps you get to the NBA:

1.  One who uses an NBA pro-style offense, or one who uses a motion offense not found in the pros?

2.  One who has coached a dozen previous players who have reached the NBA, or one that has coached just two?

3.  One who hires assistants with NBA experience, or one who hires assistants with JUCO experience?

4.  One who has 15 years of connections in the NBA, with head coaches, assistants, scouts, GMs, and others or one who has no apparent ties with anyone in the NBA?


As for the contention that "some additional BE calibre players" would help, please get real.  If you think for an instant that a player is drafted because of the quality of his teammate, you are in dreamland.  Every year there are players drafted from mid- and low-majors, and ever year there are players who are the only all-conference player on their teams.  This is your own personal anti-Crean sentiment getting in the way of a valid argument.

And its laughable that someone would say it "can be argued that Crean's leaving actually helped" when NONE of the players in question were actually drafted--a situation that was unthinkable a year ago.  Recall that McNeal and James were locks in the mock drafts a year ago, and the debate was whether they could sneak into the first round.  And there was strong sentiment that Matthews would easily make the 2nd round. 

If Crean's leaving helped, wouldn't these players have moved UP from where they were projected?  Just asking.

As I said, you can dislike Crean personally all you want, if you take your personal animus out of the picture this one's pretty obvious.