3 main ingredients for an elite program

[RawdogDX]

Outside of 15-20 programs across the country, who isn't? I have to ask again what the point is.

More often than not, elite coach and elite programs are one in the same. The coach either built the elite program (Calhoun/UConn, Olson/Arizona), or walked into an elite program because he had success elsewhere (Howland/UCLA, Self/Kansas).

+1.  Are there any eliete coaches who didn't start off as just another assistant?  Coaching is a life long skill, i'd rather get the guy on the way up than getting over the hill.  Buzz showed me enough to be happy with the prospect of giving him a few years and see what classes he brings in and what games he can win.

[Pakuni]

Tim Floyd isn't that shady. Can't really blame the OJ Mayo situation on him... the NCAA investigated it before they even let him enroll and cleared him.

I agree that giving Romeo Miller a scholarship to land DeRozan is a little shady, but other than that I think Tim Floyd is a fairly honorable coach.

The guy has largely won at programs that have had zero business being successful from Idaho to UNO to ISU.

With his midwest connections and NBA resume, I think it would have been a perfect fit and at the time he was on the way out with the Bulls and looking for job.

How about Floyd turning a blind eye to the flat-screen televisions and thousands of dollars in clothes Mayo was getting from a street agent while at USC?
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?

And, for what it's worth, Iowa State had five 20-win seasons in the decade before Tim Floyd landed in Ames.

[Skatastrophy]

Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?

Oh man, that's a good idea.  Is it against the rules, or just underhanded because we didn't think of it first?

[AlienWarrior]

If Calipari is on the block ,he would be a great hire .Besides I believe he is Catholic, not squeeky clean but so what .He would get us to the final 4 .No guarantees with the likes of Buzz . You guys and dolls think Few would come here?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't see how Crean leaving after the Final Four could have caused recruiting in 2003 and 2004 to be any worse, perhaps another coach could have done better?

I also think that Marquette gets the invite to the BE without Crean as well.

This is probably a silly discussion b/c there is nothing we can do about the past, but I was simply pointing out that we had a better chance of hiring a big name "elite" coach in 2003 than we did when Crean left last year.

MU got the invite to the Big East largely because of Crean.  I'd hate to have to risk that.    I just don't see how we had a "better chance" after 2003 when Wade was leaving then we did last year with a monster team coming back this year.  After 2003, we were considered a fluke.  After last year, we were considered a stable program that competed in the Big East and had a great returning club.  In my mind, much easier to hire a big name last year then in 2003.

[rocky_warrior]

My fear with Buzz is that he may not have a clue as to how to develop that talent

Small sample, you have to be happy with the way Jimmy developed this season, no?

I can't believe people are even suggesting we should be looking for a buzz replacement.  He may have made a few rookie *coaching* mistakes.  But so far his off the court and recruiting performance is great!

The coaching mistakes can be corrected with experience.  I'd also argue the mistakes were not glaring problems, but rather things that only a few superfans (i.e - the people here) would notice.

[AlienWarrior]

Small sample, you have to be happy with the way Jimmy developed this season, no?

I can't believe people are even suggesting we should be looking for a buzz replacement.  He may have made a few rookie *coaching* mistakes.  But so far his off the court and recruiting performance is great!

The coaching mistakes can be corrected with experience.  I'd also argue the mistakes were not glaring problems, but rather things that only a few superfans (i.e - the people here) would notice.

You missed the whole point here. Do we take a chance on waiting for Buzz to get experience ,not knowing if he WILL succeed or do we get a proven elite entity if available ?

[Pakuni]

Oh man, that's a good idea.  Is it against the rules, or just underhanded because we didn't think of it first?

Larry Brown thought of it first when he hired Danny Manning's dad as an assistant at Kansas.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What elite coaches were out there for the taking? Give some names of coaches who were a) looking for a new gig and b) interested in the Marquette job. As far as I can tell, that eliminates Miller and Bennett, who turned down more money from a more prestigious program than MU. And, really, who other than Wisconsin types believes Tony Bennett is an elite coach.

Secondly, plenty of the the upper echelons hire exactly the way MU did. I went through this yesterday, but didn't Pitt promote from within? Didn't Gonzaga? Didn't Xavier? Didn't Villanova, in a roundabout way?
And the fact is, no matter how some wish it weren't so, Marquette is much, much closer to those schools than to "upper echelon" programs that can steal an elite coach from another school (i.e. UNC, Kansas, UCLA). Sorry, but MU is not prying Calipari from Memphis or Donovan from Florida. Or even Miller from Xavier. Most would cosnider that a step down, and none of those guys are looking to make a step down.

My concern Pakuni is we don't try.  We have the woe is me, we're Marquette, we can't compete, we can't even try.  I don't know what "elite" coaches were out there, none of us do.  You never know until it happens.  That's how Arizona State got Herb Sendek.  Now, you might not consider Herb an elite coach, but since he's left NC State they have been awful and ASU has done quite well.  Those are the types of hires I think some of us are talking about.  Sometimes that takes a bit of work, a bit of ruffling the bushes.  It's how you get a Mike Montgomery to come back into coaching (another "old guy" that is doing just fine thank you).

I don't necessarily disagree with you on your analysis of us being closer to those schools.  In fact, I think you're dead on right....EXCEPT.....last year was the year to finally try.  Finally in a position with facilities, conference, success, money to TRY!  And by try, I don't mean two guys in 48 hours, I mean actually try for 10 days to 14 days.  Buzz isn't going anywhere.  Otherwise, yes, we are very similar to Xavier and those other programs.  But we were FINALLY in a position of strength for the first time in decades.

Adn yes, plenty of schools do hire the way we did.  As I think you will admit, there are examples we can both come up with (and have) to prove our points.  Young guys, old guys, experienced guys, assistants, etc have all worked out well or bombed depending on who you choose to bring up to make the point.  However, I think comparing Dixon to Buzz is not an apples to apples comparison.  Dixon was with Howland for a decade at two different schools, Buzz at MU for 1 year and with Crean for 1 year.  Mark Few was with Gonzaga 10 years as an assistant before being promoted to head coach.   Those are much much different roads then Buzz.  Few was a known quantity at GU by everyone.  Sean Miller was an assistant at Xavier for four years, again much different.  He was also an assistant before that at major programs like Wisconsin, Pittsburgh, NC State.

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1

I'll take finishing 25-10 in the second round in the NCAAs with 100% Graduation and Buzz Williams over making the final four with some miserable graduation rate with Calpari any day of the year.

We are an upstanding institution in every way, and hiring a coach like Calpari would ruin that image.

Funny, that's what we did the last three years and plenty of folks here wanted the previous guy gone....and he actually had success year in and year out...he was proven.

[NavinRJohnson]

You missed the whole point here. Do we take a chance on waiting for Buzz to get experience ,not knowing if he WILL succeed or do we get a proven elite entity if available ?

I have been asking for the point all afternoon, and it still doesn't make any sense. But hey, if Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, or Rick Pitino want to talk about coming to coach at MU, by all means, let's do it. Obviously however, names that belong on that same list are not going to entertain such discussions with MU, making this this is a ridiculously stupid topic.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How about Floyd turning a blind eye to the flat-screen televisions and thousands of dollars in clothes Mayo was getting from a street agent while at USC?
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?

And, for what it's worth, Iowa State had five 20-win seasons in the decade before Tim Floyd landed in Ames.

Do we know if Floyd knew about Mayo? 

Nothing illegal about the strength and conditioning coach hiring.  I don't like it, but nothing illegal.

Floyd did well at New Orleans and did well at Iowa State and SC, he's just a good coach.  By the way, he's one of those guys that was a NBA guy who is doing well at the college level (yes, I know he didn't play in the NBA but he did coach there).

[AlienWarrior]

I am sorry ,I don't think Buzz will get us a championship .I guess we will remain content with a sweet 16 from time to time . For me that's mediocre.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have been asking for the point all afternoon, and it still doesn't make any sense. But hey, if Roy Williams, Tom Izzo, or Rick Pitino want to talk about coming to coach at MU, by all means, let's do it. Obviously however, names that belong on that same list are not going to entertain such discussions with MU, making this this is a ridiculously stupid topic.

I think he may mean should we have gone after a guy that was doing it for awhile at the mid major level or higher that has a track record rather than go after an assistant who didn't do well at the mid major level.

Let's face it, we basically did hire a mid major head coach, one year removed from a losing record.  The reality of how that record reflects on what was going on down there in the wake of Katrina, etc can certainly be brought up with warranted comments.  So the question some would have is whether it happened the year prior, while Buzz was still the head coach at New Orleans, would we have hired Buzz?   

I doubt it.

We would have hired someone with a winning record from another school or an assistant from a top flung program. 

[NavinRJohnson]

I think he may mean should we have gone after a guy that was doing it for awhile at the mid major level or higher that has a track record rather than go after an assistant who didn't do well at the mid major level.

No, no he doesn't. A bit up the page he advocated firing Buzz in favor of an ELITE coach, whatever that means exactly...so far the only example cited has been John Calipari, as in, lets go after him and fire Buzz.

[ChicosBailBonds]

By the way, a good discussion on this thread.  Inciteful.  Enjoying it. 

Nobody is right or wrong on this thing as only the future will tell us, and even then it's inconclusive.  It's impossible to say if someone else were hired if they would have done better or worse, but I think we all hope Buzz does well and keeps MU in the top 25.

[tower912]

I have spent the whole time I have been reading this post trying to think of the last coach who was successful at a big state university taking the job at a small private school in the BEast.   Some help, please.  Who on our 'list' from last year had a better year than MU?   Miller has said no to bigger programs than us and views us a lateral move at best.   Grant is staying in the south.   Lowery?  Errrrr, no.  Bennet?   His style is incompatible with the talent we had.    Calipari?   Arizona and possibly Kentucky are going to make the annual run at him and fail.  
Buzz had convinced the MU administration in the year he was here with Crean that he was the man for the job when Crean left.  Lets show an ounce of sanity and give him a couple of more years.

[AlienWarrior]

I believe we will hover around the top 25 with Buzz or with the Buzzes of the world ,mainly on the basis of Elite reasons #1 and 2 given on my original post . But why have a weak worker bee buzzing around having a 1 in a million shot at the queen bee i.e .a championship ,instead of a macho worker bee on steroids with a better chance of wooing that queen .

[Pakuni]

Do we know if Floyd knew about Mayo? 

Nothing illegal about the strength and conditioning coach hiring.  I don't like it, but nothing illegal.

None of us can say what Floyd knew or didn't know, but he'd have to be pretty blind not to notice and/or get suspicions when the underprivileged kid from West Virginia suddenly is walking around in more expensive clothing than his own. I would hope that if a Marquette recruit shows up on campus next year in an Escalade packed with 60-inch Sony flatscreens and a Ralph Lauren wardrobe, Buzz might suspect something is amiss.

Floyd did well at New Orleans and did well at Iowa State and SC, he's just a good coach.  By the way, he's one of those guys that was a NBA guy who is doing well at the college level (yes, I know he didn't play in the NBA but he did coach there).

Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.

[SCdem@MU]

How about Floyd turning a blind eye to the flat-screen televisions and thousands of dollars in clothes Mayo was getting from a street agent while at USC?
Or about him hiring a recruit's dad as his strength and conditioning coach and not only landing the kid (who was a starter this year), but not having to use a scholie on him since employees' kids go tuition-free?

I agree that coaches should ask more questions when they see players with expensive clothes and flat screens in their dorm rooms, but what is a coach supposed to do if the player lies and says his great uncle bought it? Some people seem to forget that coaches and colleges don't have investigative powers.

And with regards to Daniel Hackett's dad being the strength coach, yeah I read that piece too, but I also know that he was an excellent player-coach in Italy and actually takes his job pretty seriously at USC.  It's not like Floyd hired some bum who has never been in a weight room before.... the guy is actually fairly qualified.

[Pakuni]

My concern Pakuni is we don't try. 

I don't know if the administration tried or not, but I'd still like to know who they should have tried with.
By all accounts, MU had inquiries about Miller and Bennett, and were politely declined. If those guys have no interest, what elite coaches would?

[rocky_warrior]

You missed the whole point here. Do we take a chance on waiting for Buzz to get experience ,not knowing if he WILL succeed or do we get a proven elite entity if available ?

Alien, I don't think I missed the point.  I was just not aware that people, such as yourself, had such unrealistic expectations for Marquette.  I thought you must have been missing something, but I guess not.

Yes, Marquette should have hired an elite coach.  However, Marquette could not hire an elite coach for many reasons that people have already stated. 

Given that fact, we have buzz now.  And I have no reason to believe he was the wrong guy to hire. 

I guess we'll just have to differ in opinions here.

[SCdem@MU]

Small sample, you have to be happy with the way Jimmy developed this season, no?

I can't believe people are even suggesting we should be looking for a buzz replacement.  He may have made a few rookie *coaching* mistakes.  But so far his off the court and recruiting performance is great!

The coaching mistakes can be corrected with experience.  I'd also argue the mistakes were not glaring problems, but rather things that only a few superfans (i.e - the people here) would notice.

Yes. I was very pleased with how Jimmy Butler came along. Although I do wonder why Buzz never let him attempt a three point shot. From what I've read, Butler was a good three point shooter in junior college. Perhaps if he had some confidence in it he hits that trey at the end of the shot clock?

My issue with Buzz is that he gave James and McNeal carte blanche to do whatever they wanted and yanked others if they so much as sneezed wrong in the first 30 seconds they were in. Same thing with the lack of time outs, he seems content to let "his players play" rather then call a time out and do some coaching/teaching.

He seems like a great guy that players relate to for one reason or another, but that does not necessarily make him a good coach. 

[SCdem@MU]

None of us can say what Floyd knew or didn't know, but he'd have to be pretty blind not to notice and/or get suspicions when the underprivileged kid from West Virginia suddenly is walking around in more expensive clothing than his own. I would hope that if a Marquette recruit shows up on campus next year in an Escalade packed with 60-inch Sony flatscreens and a Ralph Lauren wardrobe, Buzz might suspect something is amiss.

Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.

I would argue it is and I'm sure Floyd, Montgomery, Calipari and Kruger use it in recruiting. They can say, "I know playing in the NBA is important to you, I've been there and this what I think you need to work on to get there and when its time for you to make that jump, I have X people/resources that I can call at the drop of a hat who will be able to help you."

What do you think Buzz says to that? "I have a little black book of coaches Ive stalked over the years, let me see which ones are in the NBA and may be able to help us down the road.."?

[bma725]

Yes. I was very pleased with how Jimmy Butler came along. Although I do wonder why Buzz never let him attempt a three point shot. From what I've read, Butler was a good three point shooter in junior college. Perhaps if he had some confidence in it he hits that trey at the end of the shot clock?

My issue with Buzz is that he gave James and McNeal carte blanche to do whatever they wanted and yanked others if they so much as sneezed wrong in the first 30 seconds they were in. Same thing with the lack of time outs, he seems content to let "his players play" rather then call a time out and do some coaching/teaching.

He seems like a great guy that players relate to for one reason or another, but that does not necessarily make him a good coach. 

It wasn't a question of Buzz not letting Jimmy shoot them.  In fact if you go back and listen to Jimmy's interviews the coaching staff and players implored him to shoot from the perimeter because he's got a good stroke.  He chose not to because he wasn't confident in the shot.  He was a 42% shooter in JUCO, but he attempted barely more than 1 shot from beyond the arc per game, and said himself that it's something he'll work on over the summer for next year.