3 main ingredients for an elite program

[SCdem@MU]

It wasn't a question of Buzz not letting Jimmy shoot them.  In fact if you go back and listen to Jimmy's interviews the coaching staff and players implored him to shoot from the perimeter because he's got a good stroke.  He chose not to because he wasn't confident in the shot.  He was a 42% shooter in JUCO, but he attempted barely more than 1 shot from beyond the arc per game, and said himself that it's something he'll work on over the summer for next year.

Interesting, I wonder why he didn't then. Perhaps they could have drawn up some plays out of time outs or inbounds plays during garbage time/weak opponents for Butler to take a three pointer?

Seems silly to me that if you know a player is good at outside shooting that you don't try some creative ways to get him some confidence. Simply telling the kid to "take more open three point shots" isn't exactly coaching...

[ChicosBailBonds]

I have spent the whole time I have been reading this post trying to think of the last coach who was successful at a big state university taking the job at a small private school in the BEast.   Some help, please.  Who on our 'list' from last year had a better year than MU?   Miller has said no to bigger programs than us and views us a lateral move at best.   Grant is staying in the south.   Lowery?  Errrrr, no.  Bennet?   His style is incompatible with the talent we had.    Calipari?   Arizona and possibly Kentucky are going to make the annual run at him and fail.  
Buzz had convinced the MU administration in the year he was here with Crean that he was the man for the job when Crean left.  Lets show an ounce of sanity and give him a couple of more years.

Miller is smart not to take the MU job.  He's king of the mtn at Xavier in a conference they will dominate.  But if Dixon goes to UA, he's going to take the Pitt job at his alma mater. 

But I don't think comparing this year with Buzz to the years Bennett or others had is appropriate.  It again comes down to what would they have done with this team and what would Buzz have done with their teams.  The talent levels were enormously different.  Wazzu was in a rebuilding year while we were set up for a monster year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

None of us can say what Floyd knew or didn't know, but he'd have to be pretty blind not to notice and/or get suspicions when the underprivileged kid from West Virginia suddenly is walking around in more expensive clothing than his own. I would hope that if a Marquette recruit shows up on campus next year in an Escalade packed with 60-inch Sony flatscreens and a Ralph Lauren wardrobe, Buzz might suspect something is amiss.

Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.

I guess it comes down to what did Mayo "have" before coming to USC.  There are an awful lot of people out there with expensive clothes, cars, jewelry and they don't have a pot to piss in.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Floyd is about as much an NBA coach as Mike Montgomery, John Calipari and Lon Kruger. A guy with a long, successful college run who leaves to fail spectacularly at the pro level, then returns to college is not an NBA guy in my book.

We will have to disagree on that one.  Those coaches can tell recruits that they have been in the NBA and know what it takes to play at that level.  Whether you believe it or not, that's another story.  But they do have that capability of being on the inside as a coach to sell that dream to a kid.  Just as Butch Davis is doing now in the NFL or Pete Carroll has done at USC.

[SCdem@MU]

I guess it comes down to what did Mayo "have" before coming to USC.  There are an awful lot of people out there with expensive clothes, cars, jewelry and they don't have a pot to piss in.

Yeah people used "easy credit" to get all kinds of things they couldn't afford. I knew kids at Marquette that had flat screens and BMWs, some were rich kids, some probably sold illegal substances, some racked up massive credit card debit. I knew one girl at Marquette that racked up $80K in debt in ONE YEAR of college on mostly bars, clubs, and fancy winter break/spring break trips.

[SCdem@MU]

We will have to disagree on that one.  Those coaches can tell recruits that they have been in the NBA and know what it takes to play at that level.  Whether you believe it or not, that's another story.  But they do have that capability of being on the inside as a coach to sell that dream to a kid.  Just as Butch Davis is doing now in the NFL or Pete Carroll has done at USC.

I made the same point: http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14181.msg127121#msg127121.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yeah people used "easy credit" to get all kinds of things they couldn't afford. I knew kids at Marquette that had flat screens and BMWs, some were rich kids, some probably sold illegal substances, some racked up massive credit card debit. I knew one girl at Marquette that racked up $80K in debt in ONE YEAR of college on mostly bars, clubs, and fancy winter break/spring break trips.

Just look at our congresswoman down here in Long Beach.  Owned three homes and defaulted on them because she was so overextended. 

[AlienWarrior]

Well , the bailed out banksters and AIG biggies don't have to worry .We printed enough money which we will pay for with hyperinflation and taxes to furthur support their lavish lifestyles . Time to move this thread to another board .

[bma725]

But I don't think comparing this year with Buzz to the years Bennett or others had is appropriate.  It again comes down to what would they have done with this team and what would Buzz have done with their teams.  The talent levels were enormously different.  Wazzu was in a rebuilding year while we were set up for a monster year.

Who's fault was it that Wazzu is in a rebuilding year?  He was the lead assistant with the job promised to him when Dick Bennett took the job and he had two seasons before this.    Even with all that PT available he was only able to get one top 100 recruit in 2008.  He's shown no ability to recruit the kind of talent necessary to not have this be a rebuilding year, nor does it look like the future is brighter given what he's got in the fold.  He's lived off his father's success, and now he's got a roster full of two star players. 

Further, Bennett is a system guy.  Always has been.  Not as much as his dad, but he has a very definite set of rules for what you do on offense and how you play defense.  None of those things fit the talent that was on the MU roster when the season started.  Given his dedication to his basketball theories, who's to say he wouldn't have come in and done worse because he tried to make the players fit his system. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Who's fault was it that Wazzu is in a rebuilding year?  He was the lead assistant with the job promised to him when Dick Bennett took the job and he had two seasons before this.    Even with all that PT available he was only able to get one top 100 recruit in 2008.  He's shown no ability to recruit the kind of talent necessary to not have this be a rebuilding year, nor does it look like the future is brighter given what he's got in the fold.  He's lived off his father's success, and now he's got a roster full of two star players. 

Further, Bennett is a system guy.  Always has been.  Not as much as his dad, but he has a very definite set of rules for what you do on offense and how you play defense.  None of those things fit the talent that was on the MU roster when the season started.  Given his dedication to his basketball theories, who's to say he wouldn't have come in and done worse because he tried to make the players fit his system. 

I don't disagree with your comments, but still think the comparison isn't valid.  Buzz inherited a loaded team....what will Buzz's third year look like compared to Bennett's third year.  Wouldn't that be a better comparison?

[bma725]

I don't disagree with your comments, but still think the comparison isn't valid.  Buzz inherited a loaded team....what will Buzz's third year look like compared to Bennett's third year.  Wouldn't that be a better comparison?

It may be that the third year will be a better comparison.  But if you just dismiss the results because Buzz inherited a loaded team, you ignore the fact that reason the comparison isn't valid is because Bennett screwed up. 

Bennett has shown nothing to suggest he's able to recruit talent to compete in the Big East, he struggles to compete in the weaker PAC-10 with his own players.  Given how long he was there as coach in waiting, how many scholarships he's had to offer, and how much playing time he's had available, the fact that he's been able to get a grand total of one top 100 player ever should be a major red flag on the guy.

We've all talked about how much easier it is to recruit when you've got a lot of playing time to offer.  Some have even dismissed Buzz's class next year because there is a lot of PT available.  What does it say about Bennett's recruiting then, when he had more PT available than Buzz will, he had a better track record as a head coach, he was coming off a Sweet 16....and he could only get one Top 100 player.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It may be that the third year will be a better comparison.  But if you just dismiss the results because Buzz inherited a loaded team, you ignore the fact that reason the comparison isn't valid is because Bennett screwed up. 

Bennett has shown nothing to suggest he's able to recruit talent to compete in the Big East, he struggles to compete in the weaker PAC-10 with his own players.  Given how long he was there as coach in waiting, how many scholarships he's had to offer, and how much playing time he's had available, the fact that he's been able to get a grand total of one top 100 player ever should be a major red flag on the guy.

We've all talked about how much easier it is to recruit when you've got a lot of playing time to offer.  Some have even dismissed Buzz's class next year because there is a lot of PT available.  What does it say about Bennett's recruiting then, when he had more PT available than Buzz will, he had a better track record as a head coach, he was coming off a Sweet 16....and he could only get one Top 100 player.

Right, but without knowing if Buzz will screwup in year 3 is why I don't think you can compare the two. 

I also think it's a LOT harder to recruit to Pullman, Washington then it is Milwaukee, WI.  Talk about an outpost.  I'm surprised he can get anyone to come up there.

[bilsu]

Buzz still has a lot to learn, but the idea he cannot coach is just plain stupid. MU loses James and are down significantly at halftime against Villanona and Missouri and the team comes out in the second half and comes back to take leads. That does not happen if he is a bad coach. He kept this team playing together all year in the toughest conference in college basketball.

[Tommy Brice for Coach]

Funny, that's what we did the last three years and plenty of folks here wanted the previous guy gone....and he actually had success year in and year out...he was proven.

I extend this to Crean too... I was fine with him when he was here. My only gripe ever was with how he left, and maybe a lack of a big man, but I thought he did a great job here.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Buzz still has a lot to learn, but the idea he cannot coach is just plain stupid. MU loses James and are down significantly at halftime against Villanona and Missouri and the team comes out in the second half and comes back to take leads. That does not happen if he is a bad coach. He kept this team playing together all year in the toughest conference in college basketball.

I agree with you that he can coach, but let's also not forget that even "coaches" like Pat Kennedy won a lot of games and took teams to the NCAAs.  I thought Buzz made some great adjustments this year. On the other hand, I thought yesterday's first half  we looked ill prepared and were running around with our heads cut off.  It was street ball.  I commend him for the halftime adjustment but wonder what the heck we were doing in the first half.  So it's one of those areas where I felt we screwed up but at least had the smarts to get it right by the second half.

[mu-rara]

OMG

this thread is the longest example of mental masturbation ever.

Buzz is going nowhere for at least two more years.  The Jebs would never consider cutting him loose sooner.

I can't believe you guys are even debating this.

[AlienWarrior]

OMG

this thread is the longest example of mental masturbation ever.

Buzz is going nowhere for at least two more years.  The Jebs would never consider cutting him loose sooner.

I can't believe you guys are even debating this.

I disagree ,you can say most of the threads are mental masturbation on this board . This is an important fundamental topic.We may continue to wallow in the middle of the Big East for a long time and I don't want that . I want to be at or near the top of the conference and therefore sweet 16 or better most of the time. I do not believe this "learn on the fly coach " or any similar unexperienced coach will do that .I believe a caliperi-type coach can do that .However ,I agree, that the Jesuits will not do squat .They have their donations,and don't give a crap about the non-rich alumni .They will make plenty off of this"almost" team and they will continue with their golden chicken feces.

[RawdogDX]

OMG

this thread is the longest example of mental masturbation ever.

Buzz is going nowhere for at least two more years.  The Jebs would never consider cutting him loose sooner.

I can't believe you guys are even debating this.

Yeah he's going nowhere soon.  Talking about 'What ifs' or arguing about if we can judge him now or if we have to wait a few years to get a bigger sample size of data is a waste of time.  As opposed to all the other threads that will move the human race forward and cause a brighter future for our children.

[mu-rara]

I disagree ,you can say most of the threads are mental masturbation on this board . This is an important fundamental topic.We may continue to wallow in the middle of the Big East for a long time and I don't want that . I want to be at or near the top of the conference and therefore sweet 16 or better most of the time. I do not believe this "learn on the fly coach " or any similar unexperienced coach will do that .I believe a caliperi-type coach can do that .However ,I agree, that the Jesuits will not do squat .They have their donations,and don't give a crap about the non-rich alumni .They will make plenty off of this"almost" team and they will continue with their golden chicken feces.

More specifically,   this is mental masturbation at this time.  We'll have a better idea what kind of coach Buzz is after next year.  At least two years before the Jesuits would even consider a change.  

I am happy with the job Buzz did this year.  Sure there are things he could have done better.  
He had a good recruiting year.  Did the best with the talent he had (total roster was short talent wise, Big 4 awesome).
I look for a tough start next year working in a lot of new talent, but playing well in February and March.  I am not requiring an NCAA bid for a successful year, but improvement form beginning to end is required.

[AlienWarrior]

More specifically,   this is mental masturbation at this time.  We'll have a better idea what kind of coach Buzz is after next year.  At least two years before the Jesuits would even consider a change.  

I am happy with the job Buzz did this year.  Sure there are things he could have done better.  
He had a good recruiting year.  Did the best with the talent he had (total roster was short talent wise, Big 4 awesome).
I look for a tough start next year working in a lot of new talent, but playing well in February and March.  I am not requiring an NCAA bid for a successful year, but improvement form beginning to end is required.

You are a patient person ra ra .I agree that Buzz did a good job ,just feel an higher profile coach would make us a more elite program, thats it .
Please refer to my post on the thread-would marquette leave the Big East.

[jmayer1]

You are a patient person ra ra .I agree that Buzz did a good job ,just feel an higher profile coach would make us a more elite program, thats it .

I'm not a huge fan of correcting people's grammar, especially on an internet forum, but please learn how to use proper spacing when typing.  It really is getting annoying.

Who are these elite coaches you think MU can get? You listed Calipari before, which I don't really think is realistic, but who else do you think MU should go after that they can actually get?

[AlienWarrior]

I'm not a huge fan of correcting people's grammar, especially on an internet forum, but please learn how to use proper spacing when typing.  It really is getting annoying.

Who are these elite coaches you think MU can get? You listed Calipari before, which I don't really think is realistic, but who else do you think MU should go after that they can actually get?

I was a math major .   I am not a writer and don't care about spacing  .    My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important    . You are a bit too anal sir or madam    .  If you read the prior posts ,      many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned   .

[rocky_warrior]

the content of my message is more important

Dude, the content of your messages is delusional thinking.

Buzz is not going anywhere.  Marquette is not leaving the Big East.

[Sir Lawrence]

I was a math major .   I am not a writer and don't care about spacing  .    My grammar is correct and believe the content of my message is more important    . You are a bit too anal sir or madam    .  If you read the prior posts ,      many more examples of more qualified coaches were mentioned   .

Hard to believe a math major wouldn't care about spacing, or precision, or the basic ability to communicate according to rules.  Is your keyboard broken? 

[AlienWarrior]

Dude, the content of your messages is delusional thinking.

Buzz is not going anywhere.  Marquette is not leaving the Big East.

Are you a psychiatrist ? Please do not refer to me as delusional or any other term . I am simply posting my thoughts in a respectable manner. I know Buzz is not leaving .I never said he was . I never said he was a bad coach or bad recruiter .I am a fan .I want to win and want to win soon .I simply believe a rookie coach will delay the process .