3 main ingredients for an elite program

[SCdem@MU]

C'mon now, you know the answer to that you don't need to continually ask it just make your point, we all get it.

I think its a valid question, but a better question is if Crean had left the year before who would we have hired?

2006-2007 and didn't exactly have a lot of elite coaches sitting on the sidelines or even a large number of successful mid-majors moving up the ranks.

[NavinRJohnson]

That's not answering the question.  If Tom Crean had left two years ago instead of one year ago, would Buzz Williams (mid major head coach at New Orleans) have been hired, or better yet, even on the list of candidates?  I would argue....no.

No may be the correct answer. What's your point? I can only assume it is that he should not have been hired last year.  Why? Not elite enough? After all, they only had a whole year to observe him up close and personal, coupled with the King of Bloomington's recommendation upon which to base their decision. If that isn't your point, what is?

[rocky_warrior]

Mods, instead of adding a CAPTCHA image to block spam, can you add a spam filter that requires users to complete a basic math problem?

Actually, we've required that for quite a while now  (well, you have to answer a "puzzle" question).  Check it out.  Log off, then go to the register page.  I'm *not* asking people to re-register, just saying that's how you can look at it.  But it is required to use you brain a tiny little bit to sign up for the site now.

[Pakuni]

No, I would not have applauded them.  But as UW-Madison has learned, he WAS an elite coach.  That's the point, don't let elite only be tied to what institution they are at.   Plenty of coaches at elite schools that aren't worth a squirt while others at lesser institutions that are better.  Again, you and I both know we could find examples until the cows come home to support either argument.  I was merely pointing out that "elite" coach doesn't have to be tied to major program, nor should it.

OK, wait. All I've heard for (insert number of Buzz days here) from the detractors of the Buzz hire - less from you personally than from others - is how a guy with such little big-time experience never, ever would have been given a look by another school, and was a risky, risky, risky hire by MU.

Now you're saying that where a guy came from doesn't matter.
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?
Which is it ... Buzz's background made him a more inherently risky hire or not?

If Tom Crean left the year prior to when he did, would Buzz Williams have been hired as head coach coming from New Orleans?  I think that's a fair question, yet no one has answered it.

Probably not, but I don't see how it's relevant.
You could play that game with probably a half-dozen coaching hires every year.
Would Keno Davis have been hired by Providence in 2007?
Would Darrin Horn have been hired by South Carolina in 2007?
Would Travis Ford have been hired by Okie State in 2007?

Even more irrelevant is the question of whether Buzz Williams would have been hired by (insert school here). What's it matter?

[SCdem@MU]

Actually, we've required that for quite a while now  (well, you have to answer a "puzzle" question).  Check it out.  Log off, then go to the register page.  I'm *not* asking people to re-register, just saying that's how you can look at it.  But it is required to use you brain a tiny little bit to sign up for the site now.

Good to know.. its been so long since I registered that I forgot that you had that on the registration page.

I guess AlienWarrior is at least semi literate and knows his basics colors.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?

Between this and the Monty Python reference, I'm enjoying the movie allusions, Pakuni.

[tower912]

There is a candidate out there that meets everyone's criteria.   Multiple national championships? Check.   Forceful personality?   Check.   Universally respected?  Check.    Available?   Check.   Yet how many people think that MU would be better off going out and trying to get Bobby Knight to replace Buzz?    Certainly not me.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

No may be the correct answer. What's your point? I can only assume it is that he should not have been hired last year.  Why? Not elite enough? After all, they only had a whole year to observe him up close and personal, coupled with the King of Bloomington's recommendation upon which to base their decision. If that isn't your point, what is?

My point is that some of the folks that are saying we shouldn't have gone the mid-major route forget to realize that basically that's exactly what we did, hired a mid-major head coach only one year removed.  I'd also throw out that that if we were to hire hime after one losing season, people would have had a lot of problems with the hire.   As such, when some of these same people poo-poo the resumes of some current mid-major coaches for not accomplishing anything, it's ironic as hell that the very coach we hired didn't either at that same mid-major level.

Maybe I'm the only one that sees that irony, I don't know. 

[NavinRJohnson]

That is a legit point, and frankly, I agree. It is a different discussion from Alien's "Let's fire Buzz Williams and hire Rick Pitino" topic however. Rare, I know...Usually these threads stay so on point.

[Pakuni]

My point is that some of the folks that are saying we shouldn't have gone the mid-major route forget to realize that basically that's exactly what we did, hired a mid-major head coach only one year removed.  I'd also throw out that that if we were to hire hime after one losing season, people would have had a lot of problems with the hire.   As such, when some of these same people poo-poo the resumes of some current mid-major coaches for not accomplishing anything, it's ironic as hell that the very coach we hired didn't either at that same mid-major level.

Maybe I'm the only one that sees that irony, I don't know. 

I would suggest that Buzz's mid-major experience at UNO (one year without his own players, without reasonable facilities, etc.) isn't exactly comparable to what guys like Les, Lowery, Brownell, etc. have experienced at their schools.

Regardless, if you want to play the "what if?" game ... What if Buzz never left A&M? What if he stayed in College Station for two more seasons, and justifiably received credit as Gillespie's top assistant in the revival of that program, setting the stage for its current run of four straight tournament appearances.
Would hiring the top assistant from an up-and-coming program with a reputation as a top-notch recruiter be considered a major (and to some, unnecessary) risk?
I'd guess not.

[ChicosBailBonds]

OK, wait. All I've heard for (insert number of Buzz days here) from the detractors of the Buzz hire - less from you personally than from others - is how a guy with such little big-time experience never, ever would have been given a look by another school, and was a risky, risky, risky hire by MU.

Now you're saying that where a guy came from doesn't matter.
What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?
Which is it ... Buzz's background made him a more inherently risky hire or not?

Probably not, but I don't see how it's relevant.
You could play that game with probably a half-dozen coaching hires every year.
Would Keno Davis have been hired by Providence in 2007?
Would Darrin Horn have been hired by South Carolina in 2007?
Would Travis Ford have been hired by Okie State in 2007?

Even more irrelevant is the question of whether Buzz Williams would have been hired by (insert school here). What's it matter?

LOL.  Pakuni, uhm there is a big difference between a guy that has coached at a mid-major for a number of years vs someone that hasn't been a head coach at all or only for a year or two.  Don't you think?  You're mixing arguments for some reason.  The only reason I brought up where they came from were the posts implying you're not an elite coach if you're not at a major program.  That's nonsense and I provided plenty of examples to back up my point.  Pete Carril is another example.  Tressell of Ohio State (was at Youngstown State prior) is another example.  Plenty of fantastic coaches at other levels, that was my only point and it's valid.

It's not an either or situation as you're trying to make it out.  Good coaches come from all levels.  And yes, they are RISKIER, I would agree, if they come from lower levels in many cases.  I just feel and always will that MU didn't have to be this risky at this time in their evolution.  It's not like we were a NIT team or in CUSA or the Horizon, or coming off a losing season.   The hire looks good so far and he may be the next Wooden.....I hope it's so.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Between this and the Monty Python reference, I'm enjoying the movie allusions, Pakuni.

Honestly, when I read Pakuni's stuff I visualize Slim Pickens.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I would suggest that Buzz's mid-major experience at UNO (one year without his own players, without reasonable facilities, etc.) isn't exactly comparable to what guys like Les, Lowery, Brownell, etc. have experienced at their schools.

Regardless, if you want to play the "what if?" game ... What if Buzz never left A&M? What if he stayed in College Station for two more seasons, and justifiably received credit as Gillespie's top assistant in the revival of that program, setting the stage for its current run of four straight tournament appearances.
Would hiring the top assistant from an up-and-coming program with a reputation as a top-notch recruiter be considered a major (and to some, unnecessary) risk?
I'd guess not.

Well it stil depends on the situation.  When you're at the top of your game, I don't think hiring an assistant is the way to go.  If you're down in the crapper then you do (TC and KO as examples).  So if MU was in a situation where the risk justified the reward and needed an assistant from a good program, then I'd be happy with Buzz out of A&M.   With MU in the situation they were in, well I thought they should have aimed higher or at least tried for a longer period of time.

[Pakuni]

Honestly, when I read Pakuni's stuff I visualize Slim Pickens.   

'Blazing Saddles'-era Slim Pickens or 'Dr. Strangelove'-era Slim Pickens?

[downtown85]

'Blazing Saddles'-era Slim Pickens or 'Dr. Strangelove'-era Slim Pickens?

Clearly it's 'Blazing Saddles.'  based on the quote "What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?"