MU's history with "risky" hires

[Lennys Tap]

On a thread that started as a congrats to Jeronne Maymon for winning Wisconsin's Mr. Basketball, Chicos reiterates a major objection he had/has to MU's hiring of Buzz Williams - that it was a "risky" hire. Chicos seems, as mviale so accuately points out, to be the consumate "fence straddler". Hence his definition of "risk" has more to do with perception than fact. This CYA approach to risk results in "safe" hirings like Bob Dukiet, the man who almost destroyed the program. As inept as Dukiet was, his resume was impeccable - 7 seasons at St. Peters with a 135-64 record. He was, according to Steve Rushin, considered "the hottest young coaching prospect in America." Billy Packer told anyone who would listen that Marquette was "gonna love this guy". He was an unmitigated disaster, yet the AD and the President (Chicos types) have "cover" for their ill advised decision.

Contrast this to MU's best hires - AL, KO, TC and hopefully Buzz. None of these guys were "safe". But each had qualities that that led those in charge to eschew the "safe" route. The AD and President could have gone the "chicos" route and brought in some stiff like Chris Lowery. As with Dukiet, the initial reaction would have mostly been positive. And when he failed, they could have pointed to his resume and told everyone "It's not my fault". Thank God the people in charge at MU have more courage and competence than that.

[mviale]

Ultimate fence straddler - love it.  I just call him Makunga.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Anthony,

Good f'ing grief you guys beat dead horses for a living by continually bringing this up. 

KO was not a risky hire.  We are a toilet program at that point under Dukiet.  Give me a break, risky hire...he was the #1 assistant in the country at the number 1 program and we were a losing program at the time.  How in the hell is that a risky hire?

TC, also not a risky hire.  He was the number 1 assistant on arguably the top or certainly top 5 program in the country at Michigan State.  We were not even a NIT team when he was hired.  Not that risky of a hire.

Risky hires are when you are established and hire non-established coaches.   Non-risky hires are when you're at the bottom and have nothing to lose (see KO, AL, TC). 

And the Dukiet hire was a classic MU cluster #$#^.  First, we go after the guy down South who says no.  Then we settle on Bob Dukiet.  Who cares what Steve Rushin said.  Hank Raymonds hire....Hank's a nice man and a great assistant coach but quite frankly Hank didn't do MU any favors as AD or as the head coach.  Nothing more need be said.

There is NO SUCH THING as a "safe hire" as you will see I stated many times last year.  But there are "more" safe hires than others. 

But for the MILLIONTH TIME, I'm very pleased with what Buzz has done this year.....again.....again.....again.

As for the competence, you don't know if this hire was good nor will any of us for many years to come.  It's funny as hell that you bash people here for not liking the process and claim to play Nostra Damus on how it would have all worked out yet in the very next breath you are doing the same thing yourself as if to guarantee what Buzz will do over the next 5 years.  We don't know.

I said Bennett and Miller.  After that I said why settle so fast....if Buzz is the guy, fine (I said) but try a few others before you go there.  Try a McKillop, try a Weber, try for Keno.  I thought they were "safer" hires, but certainly nothing is SAFE.  Instead, MU said Buzz was the guy.  That's fine....I've moved on, why haven't you?

And for Christ sake, don't we have a big game today?  Why the F do you keep bringing this up?  I don't get it, seriously, I don't.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ultimate fence straddler - love it.  I just call him Makunga.

I just call you 寛大な猫


Sorry if you don't know Japanese.   

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

It was absolutely a risky hire and nothing I've seen so far this year has alleviated my concern. He's done a nice job with a team loaded with upper classman who wanted to finish successful careers with another NCAA birth. We'll see how he does with a younger team, one with apparently some characters on it. There is no doubt Buzz is passionate, but I wonder if he's not just too peculiar for his own good.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It was absolutely a risky hire and nothing I've seen so far this year has alleviated my concern. He's done a nice job with a team loaded with upper classman who wanted to finish successful careers with another NCAA birth. We'll see how he does with a younger team, one with apparently some characters on it. There is no doubt Buzz is passionate, but I wonder if he's not just too peculiar for his own good.

That is exactly right.  But to "DARE" say this makes you not a Marquette fan, makes you a Buzz hater and also a communist according to some of these people.  It's incredible.

It doesn't mean we don't want Buzz to succeed, of course we do (unlike some of these very clowns that actually WANTED Crean to fail...incredible).   But the reality is the reality, it was a risky hire.

It's funny, Lenny brings up Steve Rushin as an example that Dukiet was a good hire.  Yet there have to be 50 articles out there from writers saying Buzz was a risky hire.  Does only Rushin's opinion count Lenny when it comes to writers?     (By the way, Steve Rushin was a STUDENT when Bob Dukiet was hired as he graduated from Marquette in 1988 so was he pontificating on this great hire as a writer at the MU Tribune?  Seriously?)

A lot of fence sitters out there, eh Lenny?  Or were they calling it like it is...a gamble.  Doesn't mean it won't work, doesn't mean it can't work, doesn't mean people are cheering against him (in fact we want him to succeed), but it was still a risky hire and with MU at the top of their game, I didn't think a risky hire was needed to quickly.  We made the decision in about 48 to 72 hours.  He would have been there another week or two later.  That was the point.  Stop changing the facts.

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?cid=808250


http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31869834.html


http://www.postcrescent.com/ic/blogs/woods/2008/04/about-mu-ku-and-crying-foul.html


http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/29527974.html


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=3349522


Etc, etc

[mviale]

PRN and chicos - I cant think of a better pair? Or could I chicos?

[ChicosBailBonds]

PRN and chicos - I cant think of a better pair? Or could I chicos?

寛大な猫

[mviale]

Is that "ouch, the fence hurts" in japanese?

[NavinRJohnson]

Funny thing is, Cords has stated he was basically sold on Crean the first time he talked to him in Milwaukee, and went with it. This time around it seems like the same thing pretty much happened - the difference is, MU had an entire year to observe him up close and personal like, coupled with a glowing recommendation from the outgoing coach (I'm still convinced he was the succession plan all along dating back to when he was hired as an assistant.). They were comfortable with him and decided to hire him. Outside of the apparent lack of interest among the 'more experienced' coaches, what's the difference?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Funny thing is, Cords has stated he was basically sold on Crean the first time he talked to him in Milwaukee, and went with it. This time around it seems like the same thing pretty much happened - the difference is, MU had an entire year to observe him up close and personal like, coupled with a glowing recommendation from the outgoing coach (I'm still convinced he was the succession plan all along dating back to when he was hired as an assistant.). They were comfortable with him and decided to hire him. Outside of the apparent lack of interest among the 'more experienced' coaches, what's the difference?

The reality of it, however, is that MU took quite a long time in that hiring process.  About 25 days to hire Crean so I don't think the comparison is correct. There were many people involved (I was still working there at the time).  Cords was sold on him up front but many others were involved in that hiring process (unlike the Deane hiring that was very much Cords led).  A lot of chiefs in 1999 were involved in that process from Kliebahn to the guy in Blue and Gold (played at G'Town but I can't remember his name), to a number of others.  Again, however, lower risk because we were at the bottom.  When you're at the bottom, you take the risk.  When you're not at the bottom, you don't need to take as much risk. 

MU went with Buzz for a number of reasons.  He could try to save the recruiting class with Taylor and Williams (didn't work, but he tried).  He got the other Williams to still come to MU, that worked.  The seniors on the team liked him so that kept continuity.  He was a strong recruiter. 

[Lennys Tap]

Chicos,

Only you could accuse someone of "beating a dead horse" on a topic on which you have hundreds of posts. The fact that you wrote 5 responses in a matter of minutes speaks volumes. Speaking of facts, I never called you a communist or a Buzz hater. I called you a mugwump. Some people bet on the game before it starts (Cottingham, Wild). Others want to wait until they see the final score.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I hated Crean, but you cannot begin to compare Buzz Williams' resume with Crean's. Williams' resume is probably as unimpressive as there is in major Division I basketball. Crean was at MSU for years, and at W. Kentucky and Pitt before that. Williams was with Billy Gillespie for a couple seasons, blew off New Orleans after one year and, other than that, worked at schools that make MSOE look like the Los Angeles Lakers.

Saying this was anything other than a risky hire is as odd as Williams seems to be.

[mviale]

who cares at this point?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,

Only you could accuse someone of "beating a dead horse" on a topic on which you have hundreds of posts. The fact that you wrote 5 responses in a matter of minutes speaks volumes. Speaking of facts, I never called you a communist or a Buzz hater. I called you a mugwump. Some people bet on the game before it starts (Cottingham, Wild). Others want to wait until they see the final score.

But I'm not the one starting these threads and questions, only replying to them.  Thus you are beating the dead horse.  I dropped this months ago, but you guys keep bringing it up.

Also, I didn't say YOU called anyone a communist or buzz hater.  I said these "CLOWNS" and they know who they are.  It's the same cabal of 5 to 10 people.

That's a great analogy.      You have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.  Risks are worth taking, they're also important to weigh in your decisions. That's what Wild and Cottingham are paid to do.  But there are measured risks as well.  Let's hope they are right, I sure hope they are (even if the same 5 to 10 morons actually believe I want him to fail....silly).

[NavinRJohnson]

The reality of it, however, is that MU took quite a long time in that hiring process.  About 25 days to hire Crean so I don't think the comparison is correct.

What was going on during that 25 days? Crean was working. He was announced as MU's coach 2 days after MSU's season ended. Had they lost sooner you don't think he would have been hired sooner?

[ChicosBailBonds]

who cares at this point?

No one except you guys who keep bringing it up by starting new threads and new posts about it.....oh the irony.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What was going on during that 25 days? Crean was working. He was announced as MU's coach 2 days after MSU's season ended. Had they lost sooner you don't think he would have been hired sooner?

Yes, he would have been hired sooner but not by that much.  I'm just telling you the trigger wasn't pulled on Crean completely for a little while. Let's put it this way, it wasn't going to be done in 48 to 72 hours like our last hire.  MU was going to take it's time, do it right, do it's due diligence.  The crop of assistant coaches that year was impressive.

MU wanted a Midwest guy, that was high on their list.  They were tired of coaches bolting on them.  They wanted a recruiter, someone clean, someone who didn't cheat and someone with pedigree. 

Depending on who you ask, the other potential candidates were Tom Davis (too old), Barry Collier from Butler, Quin Snyder, Steve Alford, etc.

I'd say with the due diligence spent, we got the right guy.  Though, back to Lenny's comments, all of the writers were saying each of these guys would be a home run and it didn't work out that way.  Snyder was a bust and he cheated.  Collier has been ok, but was in a black hole at Nebraska and ultimately became the AD at Butler a few years ago.  Alford, no thanks though he was proclaimed the can't miss candidate.  Thus proving the point that no one knows.  I don't know if Buzz will work out and neither does anyone else here. 

But so far, so good.

[NavinRJohnson]

I agree it is a rather pointless discussion, and as I said, it is my belief that Buzz pretty much had the job before Crean's last season at MU even started.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree it is a rather pointless discussion, and as I said, it is my belief that Buzz pretty much had the job before Crean's last season at MU even started.

Might be.  Crean was getting offers from other schools and not taking them but my guess is if the IU job didn't open up, Crean would be leaving after this year with the big 3 graduating and Buzz might very well have been the guy.  No doubt that when Crean left, he pushed HARD for Buzz to be the head coach (oh how that must make the Crean haters here feel squeamish.     )

[steff_mckee]

Enough with the vanity posts....

[Pakuni]

Clearly there was an element of risk in hiring a guy with only three years experience as a major college assistant and one ugly year as a head coach.
That said, history suggests that big-time programs that promote from within or hire asisstants from other big-time programs fare far, far better than those that elect to hire a "experienced" coach from the mid- or small-major ranks.
And that was at the heart of the debate we seem to keep having. Noboby would have objected to Miller or Bennett over Buzz. I suspect the vast majority would have preferred it, myself included.
But what some of us couldn't grasp - and still can't - is the demand for the likes of Brad Brownell, Chris Lowery and Jim Les over Buzz. After this season, it's even more mind-boggling that some would hold onto those positions as all three of those programs are heading backwards now that those coaches are bringing in their own recruits.

MU's own experiences prove that the "experienced" head coach route typically ends poorly. Dukiet and Deane were busts. O'Neill and Crean each revived the program.
When Howland left Pitt, they looked within and landed gem. When Motta left Xavier, they looked within and landed a gem.  When Dan Monson left Gonzaga, they looked within and landed a gem.
Or look at DePaul. Dave Leitao was pulled off Calhoun's staff and had the Blue Demons headed in the right direction. Then DePaul went and got an experienced guy from the mid-major ranks. Hasn't turned out too well so far, it seems.

Obviously there are instances in which mid-major guys flourished at the big-time level, but as best as I can tell those guys are more often the exception than the rule. Especially at programs like (and named) Marquette.

[4everwarriors]

I'm staying out of this one. But, I'm not a clown either.

[VegasWarrior77]

I just call you 寛大な猫


Sorry if you don't know Japanese.   

I'm sorry you DO know japanese.  They bombed our country and killed many Americans!  You should really be proud!

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm sorry you DO know japanese.  They bombed our country and killed many Americans!  You should really be proud!

Are you kidding me?  The British at one time killed many Americans, too.  So did the French, Mexicans, Canadians, etc.

I took Japanese at Marquette and at the University of Kansas in grad school.  I'm sorry you think it's a bad idea to expand one's horizons.