MU's history with "risky" hires

[ChicosBailBonds]

Deane wasn't a bust Pakuni, but he certainly didn't keep things on the upward arc.  I believe this guy Al McGuire was a mid major head coach, that seemed to work out pretty well.

One could argue the internal assistant coach route at MU hasn't exactly produced gems at MU either.  Majerus?

[Big Papi]

Deane wasn't a bust Pakuni, but he certainly didn't keep things on the upward arc.  I believe this guy Al McGuire was a mid major head coach, that seemed to work out pretty well.

One could argue the internal assistant coach route at MU hasn't exactly produced gems at MU either.  Majerus?

Great than we can agree that pretty much any hire MU would have made last April would have been a risk - be it a mid-major coach with experience or a hire from within.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Great than we can agree that pretty much any hire MU would have made last April would have been a risk - be it a mid-major coach with experience or a hire from within.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner.  In fact, I said that very thing A YEAR AGO.  All hires are a risk, but some are riskier than others.  We went the RISKIER THAN NEEDED route, let's hope it pays off. 

Good year this year.  A lot of fun, very entertaining.

[Pakuni]

Deane wasn't a bust Pakuni, but he certainly didn't keep things on the upward arc.  I believe this guy Al McGuire was a mid major head coach, that seemed to work out pretty well.

One could argue the internal assistant coach route at MU hasn't exactly produced gems at MU either.  Majerus?

You and I may have different concepts of busts, but from my perspective, Deane:

1. Inherited a 1995 team had a nice NIT run, but should have been in the NCAAs (perhaps if Deane hadn't waited so long to make Hutchins a regular)
2. Lost to double-digit seeds in the opening weekend of both his NCAA tourney appearances
3. Produced back-to-back squads that didn't make any postseason appearances (including the first squad the team that Crean inherited)
4. Recruited only two all-conference type players in five seasons

Deane did worse than not keep things on an upward art. He sent things on a downward arc.

[Lennys Tap]

Deane wasn't a bust Pakuni, but he certainly didn't keep things on the upward arc.  I believe this guy Al McGuire was a mid major head coach, that seemed to work out pretty well.

One could argue the internal assistant coach route at MU hasn't exactly produced gems at MU either.  Majerus?

Al McGuire was hardly a mid major coach. He coached at what was commonly referred to as "tiny Belmont Abbey". Not sure what the classifications were then, but the equivalent of DII or DIII today. That's why he was such a "risky" hire.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't disagree with your analysis, I just wouldn't call it a bust.  Bob Dukiet = bust.  Stever Yoder = bust.  That doesn't mean I'm saying Deane's run was golden....it wasn't. 

Now, please make sure not to say anything in German or Italian or our Vegas friend my blast you for being an Axis sympathizer.

[Marquette84]

Yes, he would have been hired sooner but not by that much.  I'm just telling you the trigger wasn't pulled on Crean completely for a little while. Let's put it this way, it wasn't going to be done in 48 to 72 hours like our last hire.  MU was going to take it's time, do it right, do it's due diligence.  The crop of assistant coaches that year was impressive.

I still have to question what you mean by "due diligence."  Basketball coaching is a small fraternity, and their past performance is an open book.  

MU wanted a Midwest guy, that was high on their list.  They were tired of coaches bolting on them.  They wanted a recruiter, someone clean, someone who didn't cheat and someone with pedigree. 

Depending on who you ask, the other potential candidates were Tom Davis (too old), Barry Collier from Butler, Quin Snyder, Steve Alford, etc.

And within about 15 minutes, you could have determined that Tom Davis was too old; Barry Collier was another Mike Deane/Bob Dukiet successful mid-major coach; Quin Snyder was slimy as hell; and Steve Alford looked like a short timer.

It wouldn't have taken two weeks to conduct that due diligence--hell, it wouldn't have taken two HOURS!  


As for the "due diligence" on the group of candidates last year, what could you have possibly learned that would have overcome the Mike Deane/Bob Dukiet comparison that would be applied to Keno Davis, Brad Brownell, Jim Les, Chris Lowery, Bob McKillop etc?

What "due diligence" on Bruce Weber would have changed the fact that in four years he took a team of Bill Self recruits to the final four, and three years later had a losing record in a weak year in the Big 10?  The guy had HUGE question marks, and I don't see that it's shameful to decide--given the circumstances last year--that you did not want him.

I think MU probably had enough intelligence to decide that they did not want a mid-major guy.  That left elite up-and-comers like Sean Miller and Tony Bennett.  Or assistants--either your own or somebody else's.  Given the year-long chance to see Buzz in person, I think there was certainly enough there to make a wise decision in a short period of time.  

[Lennys Tap]

I still have to question what you mean by "due diligence."  Basketball coaching is a small fraternity, and their past performance is an open book.  


And within about 15 minutes, you could have determined that Tom Davis was too old; Barry Collier was another Mike Deane/Bob Dukiet successful mid-major coach; Quin Snyder was slimy as hell; and Steve Alford looked like a short timer.

It wouldn't have taken two weeks to conduct that due diligence--hell, it wouldn't have taken two HOURS!  


As for the "due diligence" on the group of candidates last year, what could you have possibly learned that would have overcome the Mike Deane/Bob Dukiet comparison that would be applied to Keno Davis, Brad Brownell, Jim Les, Chris Lowery, Bob McKillop etc?

What "due diligence" on Bruce Weber would have changed the fact that in four years he took a team of Bill Self recruits to the final four, and three years later had a losing record in a weak year in the Big 10?  The guy had HUGE question marks, and I don't see that it's shameful to decide--given the circumstances last year--that you did not want him.

I think MU probably had enough intelligence to decide that they did not want a mid-major guy.  That left elite up-and-comers like Sean Miller and Tony Bennett.  Or assistants--either your own or somebody else's.  Given the year-long chance to see Buzz in person, I think there was certainly enough there to make a wise decision in a short period of time.  

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[4everwarriors]

I took Japanese at Marquette and at the University of Kansas in grad school.

Should have studied Mandarin Chinese instead. That's where it's at.

[VegasWarrior77]

Should have studied Mandarin Chinese instead. That's where it's at.

Agreed!  After we do through "nuclear inflation" China will be THE world power!  Buy gold and silver.  Short the dollar!

[MR.HAYWARD]

anyone wathc texas A&m this year mega talented, they have Buzz to thank for that roster.  If buzz can continue to recruit he will be succesful, coaching is over exagaerated the best coaches are the best coaches becuase they have the best talent.  winning i s90% talent.  As bad of a coach as Cream was Buzz can only be better, recruit better too and we will take a step forward.  Crean signed 2 good classes in 9 years, buzz is 1 for 1.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Al McGuire was hardly a mid major coach. He coached at what was commonly referred to as "tiny Belmont Abbey". Not sure what the classifications were then, but the equivalent of DII or DIII today. That's why he was such a "risky" hire.

My point was he was a HEAD coach from another program, back in those days they didn't have near as many DI schools as there are today....thus the term mid major didn't really exist.  But the man had run his own program for a number of years rather then hiring an assistant.  Equivalent of hiring today's mid major.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I still have to question what you mean by "due diligence."  Basketball coaching is a small fraternity, and their past performance is an open book.  


And within about 15 minutes, you could have determined that Tom Davis was too old; Barry Collier was another Mike Deane/Bob Dukiet successful mid-major coach; Quin Snyder was slimy as hell; and Steve Alford looked like a short timer.

It wouldn't have taken two weeks to conduct that due diligence--hell, it wouldn't have taken two HOURS!  


As for the "due diligence" on the group of candidates last year, what could you have possibly learned that would have overcome the Mike Deane/Bob Dukiet comparison that would be applied to Keno Davis, Brad Brownell, Jim Les, Chris Lowery, Bob McKillop etc?

What "due diligence" on Bruce Weber would have changed the fact that in four years he took a team of Bill Self recruits to the final four, and three years later had a losing record in a weak year in the Big 10?  The guy had HUGE question marks, and I don't see that it's shameful to decide--given the circumstances last year--that you did not want him.

I think MU probably had enough intelligence to decide that they did not want a mid-major guy.  That left elite up-and-comers like Sean Miller and Tony Bennett.  Or assistants--either your own or somebody else's.  Given the year-long chance to see Buzz in person, I think there was certainly enough there to make a wise decision in a short period of time.  

As I said before, I hope MU got it right.  We'll know in a few years.

[Lennys Tap]

My point was he was a HEAD coach from another program, back in those days they didn't have near as many DI schools as there are today....thus the term mid major didn't really exist.  But the man had run his own program for a number of years rather then hiring an assistant.  Equivalent of hiring today's mid major.

There are 70-75 teams in the "Big 6". After that come the mid majors, roughly the 75-150th most recognized of 350 D1 teams. Comparing Belmont Abbey of the mid 60's to an SIU, say of today is just not accurate.

More to the point, though, Al's record at Belmont Abbey his first 2 years (with someone else's players) was 45=5. His last 2 years, with teams consisting of only his own guys, he was 12-37! Easily the "riskiest" hire in MU history, one that today would generate outrage. And all we got out of it was the best 10 year run by anyone not named Wooden.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There are 70-75 teams in the "Big 6". After that come the mid majors, roughly the 75-150th most recognized of 350 D1 teams. Comparing Belmont Abbey of the mid 60's to an SIU, say of today is just not accurate.

More to the point, though, Al's record at Belmont Abbey his first 2 years (with someone else's players) was 45=5. His last 2 years, with teams consisting of only his own guys, he was 12-37! Easily the "riskiest" hire in MU history, one that today would generate outrage. And all we got out of it was the best 10 year run by anyone not named Wooden.

You continue to fail to mention where we were, which is as much a part of the risk calculation as anything.  Let's use a football example.  If you're toward the end of the game and have the ball and the LEAD, do you throw a hail mary (risky play) or try to maintain where you are at?   If you're trailing at the end of the game with the ball are you more apt to throw the hail mary? 

When MU hired Al McGuire, we were 5-21.....the 2nd worst season in Marquette history (only to be outdone during the war when we were 2-13).  So to say it was the riskiest hire when you're at absolute bottom is not a fair characterization.  You have nothing to lose at that point.  A risky hire (at least perceived) would be if we were 21-5 and hired McGuire.

That is why so many pundits (not just me, but those same writer folks you referenced in a different post) thought Buzz was "risky" because MU was in a good spot. 

As far as Belmont goes, you're not telling the whole story.  He coached them to 5 post season appearances so it wasn't just with the "previous guys players".    He had two poor years to finish up at Belmont....but do you know why that was the case?   

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Al McGuire was a former NBA player!! He was a great, great college player at St. John's. If there were a press conference announcing his hiring at Marquette we'd be talking about his basketball accomplishments, not how many letters he wrote pleading for jobs or how many coaches press conferences he "studied" on ESPN.

There is no comparison. None.

[Pakuni]

Al McGuire was a former NBA player!! He was a great, great college player at St. John's. If there were a press conference announcing his hiring at Marquette we'd be talking about his basketball accomplishments, not how many letters he wrote pleading for jobs or how many coaches press conferences he "studied" on ESPN.

There is no comparison. None.

We'd also be talking about all the former NBA players who went on to become great college coaches.
But that would be a very, very short conversation, wouldn't it?

[Hards Alumni]

oops.

[The Lens]

TC was in no way a risky hire.  He was almost as hot as Alford & Quinn.  He also was probably the best hire.  Yes I did just write that.

And I think Buzz was not a risky hire.  If he stays at A&M one more year and then follows Billy G to UK, all of a sudden he's the hottest AC out there.

What I'm proud of with MU in this whole coaching search is they went with what worked. 

KO (young, major program AC)
TC (young major program AC)
Buzz (young major program AC)

Hiring Les or McKillop would have been a reactionary move (like Deane).  It would be saying we need stability we need an old guy who will never leave.  I say forget that.  Hire a young hungry AC who wants a better job.  He'll work his tail off to get it.  If he leaves you, fine, go hire the next guy.  As long as your coaches are bolting for better programs, you're doing OK.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

We'd also be talking about all the former NBA players who went on to become great college coaches.
But that would be a very, very short conversation, wouldn't it?

Clever! Al McGuire was hired in 1964.

I'd be interested in seeing the list of Navarro College graduates with giant holes and red flags in their resumes who went on to become great college coaches. Is it longer than the one that contains Al McGuire?

[RJax55]

What I'm proud of with MU in this whole coaching search is they went with what worked. 

KO (young, major program AC)
TC (young major program AC)
Buzz (young major program AC)

Hiring Les or McKillop would have been a reactionary move (like Deane).  It would be saying we need stability we need an old guy who will never leave.  I say forget that.  Hire a young hungry AC who wants a better job.  He'll work his tail off to get it.  If he leaves you, fine, go hire the next guy.  As long as your coaches are bolting for better programs, you're doing OK.

+1, Great points.

[THEGYMBAR]

The hiring of Buzz is without a doubt the riskiest hire in school history. The stakes are higher than they ever have been and MU flinched when TC left. An athletic department ill prepared to make the moves needed to make the hire less risky. The brass at MU did not do the proper homework.

I said a month ago who would you rather be in the coaching world, TC @ Indiana or Buzz@ MU. I felt a year ago that MU admin had no idea how to search for tier 1 BE quality coach and I believe that more now than ever. Never had anything against Buzz and that holds true today.

IMO this hire will ultimately be the biggest mistake in MU basketball history. TC said he took Indiana because it was Indiana...maybe he left because it was MU. The BE is not for the weak of heart and the coaching resumes of the other coaches reflect that. How many HOF'er's in the bunch?

Still pulling for Buzz but in my heart and head I really feel he is in over his head. One step further, if he was coaching at UNO this year I would think he was in over his head.

[ChicosBailBonds]

TC was in no way a risky hire.  He was almost as hot as Alford & Quinn.  He also was probably the best hire.  Yes I did just write that.

And I think Buzz was not a risky hire.  If he stays at A&M one more year and then follows Billy G to UK, all of a sudden he's the hottest AC out there.

What I'm proud of with MU in this whole coaching search is they went with what worked. 

KO (young, major program AC)
TC (young major program AC)
Buzz (young major program AC)

Hiring Les or McKillop would have been a reactionary move (like Deane).  It would be saying we need stability we need an old guy who will never leave.  I say forget that.  Hire a young hungry AC who wants a better job.  He'll work his tail off to get it.  If he leaves you, fine, go hire the next guy.  As long as your coaches are bolting for better programs, you're doing OK.

How would he be the hottest AC out there when looking at Gillespie's two year run at KY? I'm just asking, not trying to start anything.


The difference with the Buzz hire compared to TC and KO are where they came from.  TC and KO came from the absolute ELITE of basketball.  Buzz came from one year as an assistant after coming off one year of a losing record as head coach (yes, N.O. had many issues to deal with).  Buzz's assistant coach pedigree at CSU, A&M, Navarro College isn't like being an assistant at PITT for 5+ years (DIXON), or Arizona (KO), or Michigan State (TC).

Now, I don't disagree with the approach of hiring "young, aggressive, hungry" coaches, but of course by that very definition you're hiring someone that will do this for a few years and move on again, thus making MU a stepping stone situation again and again and again.

What would be ideal is to get someone that is young and wants to be here for a long time.  Maybe that's Buzz, I don't know.  Painter at Purdue, Miller at Xavier, Bennett at WSU.

But I also think you're saying that hiring experience somehow doesn't work or doesn't make someone hungry is not accurate either.  UCLA hired "HUNGRY" Steve Lavin and ultimately replaced him with EXPERIENCED Ben Howland as just one of many examples.  Wake Forest went with experienced Skip Prosser and he was doing a great job before his death (now the assistant they promoted up....jury is still out).  There's some vampire like guy over in Madison that wasn't a spring chicken when was hired as well.  There are examples on both sides of the ledger.


In the whole timing scenario, the one guy I wish would have been able so we could take a serious look was Darrin Horn.

[Pakuni]

Clever! Al McGuire was hired in 1964.

I'd be interested in seeing the list of Navarro College graduates with giant holes and red flags in their resumes who went on to become great college coaches. Is it longer than the one that contains Al McGuire?

Wait ... aren't you the guy who saw fit to raise Al McGuire's NBA playing experience as part of his strong resume that would have us talking? Now you, for all intents, note that it's meaningless because he was hired in 1964?
Which is it?
The fact is great college don't often make great college coaches. NBA players who make great college coaches are even more rare. Did any of the Sweet 16 coaches ever play in the NBA? I don't think so, but maybe I'm missing one.

I don't know any other good college coaches from Navarro College.
But I know some good coaches have sprung from powerhouse programs like American International (Jim Calhoun); Bucknell (Jay Wright); Army (Coach K); Massachusettes-Amherst (Rick Pitino); Wheeling College (John Beilein); Northern Michigan (Tom Izzo); Weber State (Ben Howland); Augsburg College (Lute Olson); High Point University (Tubby Smith); Wilkes University (Bo Ryan); and Clarion State (John Calipari).

Clearly where one attended college dictates one's ability to coach.
You're always making such good points.

[Pardner]

Al McGuire was a former NBA player!! He was a great, great college player at St. John's. If there were a press conference announcing his hiring at Marquette we'd be talking about his basketball accomplishments, not how many letters he wrote pleading for jobs or how many coaches press conferences he "studied" on ESPN.

There is no comparison. None.

Sounds like Jim Les