Is it over for DePaul?

[jmayer1]

A few things:

Goatherder - I didn't forget anyone, reread my post.  I said 4 or 5 star recruits since 2002.  All of those players were either recruited before then or weren't 4 or 5 star recruits (based on Scout).

Pakuni - Not sure what map you're looking at but MU is the same distance from DePaul as it is from UW (within a few miles) so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "MU and UW are closer geographically than MU and DePaul."

Nobody is saying MU can't be successful with DePaul and UW (or Northwestern for that matter) being good.  However, there is no denying that the more good programs there are in the local area, the harder it is to get some of the recruits.  If you dispute this, I don't know what to tell ya.

The arguement that having DePaul or UW be good is better for fan interest is only slightly true.  If MU is good they will always have good rivalries and plenty of fan interest.

[Goatherder]

A few things:

Goatherder - I didn't forget anyone, reread my post.  I said 4 or 5 star recruits since 2002.  All of those players were either recruited before then or weren't 4 or 5 star recruits (based on Scout).

Pakuni - Not sure what map you're looking at but MU is the same distance from DePaul as it is from UW (within a few miles) so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "MU and UW are closer geographically than MU and DePaul."

Nobody is saying MU can't be successful with DePaul and UW (or Northwestern for that matter) being good.  However, there is no denying that the more good programs there are in the local area, the harder it is to get some of the recruits.  If you dispute this, I don't know what to tell ya.

The arguement that having DePaul or UW be good is better for fan interest is only slightly true.  If MU is good they will always have good rivalries and plenty of fan interest.

And the argument that more good programs in the local area makes it harder to recruit is also only slightly true.  There are plenty of players out there, and nobody, least of all Marquette, is going to corner the market on all the good ones in Chicago.  Nor is there a need to, as our recruiting becomes ever wider nationally.  Having strong natural rivals is good for a program.  If you dispute this, I don't know what to tell ya. 

[Pakuni]

Pakuni - Not sure what map you're looking at but MU is the same distance from DePaul as it is from UW (within a few miles) so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "MU and UW are closer geographically than MU and DePaul."

MU campus to DePaul campus = 89.6 miles
MU campus to UW campus = 79.8 miles

Yes, the difference is negligible. But mileage isn't the point. The point is that a quality basketball program geographically near Marquette will not cause MU to fail or even significantly impede the program. Will a competitive DePaul create some additional recruiting challenges for MU? Sure. As does a competitive Wisconsin. Or competitive Illinois. Or competitive Minnesota, Notre Dame, Purdue, etc., etc.
Fact is that over the past decade, MU has competed against those other schools for recruits as frequently, and in most cases more frequently, than they have with DePaul. And yet MU somehow survives.
Heck, last time I checked Duke, Wake Forest, UNC and NC State sit within 25 miles of one another and three of those four are in the top 5 right now. Impossible as it seems, they're succeeding despite having local competition for recruits, fans, media attention and the all-important excitement.

[Avenue Commons]

Nobody is saying MU can't be successful with DePaul and UW (or Northwestern for that matter) being good.  However, there is no denying that the more good programs there are in the local area, the harder it is to get some of the recruits.  If you dispute this, I don't know what to tell ya.

Of course, but that goes to the whole idea that instead of wanting to be a big fish in a big pond, that you want to be a big fish in a small pond. If we're going to do that maybe we should just go dominate in C-USA or perenially challenge for the A-10 title. I want Marquette to be big time in its own right, and not even consider what the other midwestern schools are doing or not doing. That's a recipe for long term, consistent success. Go big or go home. Some of you people sound like Mike Deane who said that blue chip recruits didn't want to come to Marquette. He was wrong.

Also, think about these situations:

1. North Carolina, NC State, Wake Forest and Duke.

2. Villanova, Temple, St. Joseph's, Penn, Drexel and LaSalle.

[Pakuni]

Some of you people sound like Mike Deane who said that blue chip recruits didn't want to come to Marquette. He was wrong.

Or like people who think we have to fear MU losing its coach after half a season.

[RawdogDX]

MU campus to DePaul campus = 89.6 miles
MU campus to UW campus = 79.8 miles

MU to Northwestern = 69 miles.  Check and Mate.  Not that i have any idea what people are talking about anymore.

[Avenue Commons]

Not that i have any idea what people are talking about anymore.

This thread now has 105 posts and has been viewed 2232 times.

And to think people say the rivalry with DePaul is dead..........................

VS.

[Skatastrophy]

This thread now has 105 posts and has been viewed 2232 times.

And to think people say the rivalry with DePaul is dead..........................

I've really appreciated the DePaul fans coming here and posting helpful, knowledgable and constructive feedback.  I've been proud that the MU fans here haven't been derisive towards our DePaul guests in any way.

While we'll always have some semblance of a rivalry, I think that the fact that this continues to be an active thread is the fact that it hasn't turned into a flame-war between zealots of either program

[jmayer1]

Agree to disagree I guess guys.

[dpu70]

And this comment comes from one of our most notable alums.

http://www.theheckler.com/news/templates/?a=2683&z=25

[Skatastrophy]

And this comment comes from one of our most notable alums.

http://www.theheckler.com/news/templates/?a=2683&z=25

Wow, that really stinks.  That hurts *my* feelings and I didn't even go to DePaul

[dpu70]

Somehow, I think we just lost another Alum Doner.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

MU to Northwestern = 80.93 miles.  Check and Mate.  Not that i have any idea what people are talking about anymore.

Corrected.

[Stringer Bellenson]

For all the power Daley has, and the fact that he lets no one stand in his way when it comes to a project he wants to get done, you'd think Daley could get his old school a plot of land somewhere in the actual city for nice and cheap.  That would probably go a pretty far way in putting fans in the seats, at least from the student perspective. 

[Stringer Bellenson]

It's got be rough waking up Saturday morning half in the bag and scamming a ride out to Rosemont.

[Avenue Commons]

And this comment comes from one of our most notable alums.
http://www.theheckler.com/news/templates/?a=2683&z=25

The Heckler is a satirical sports paper, a la The Onion. I don't think Da Mayor actually said that about the college team. He did open the discussion on a second NFL team, which I think Chicago could support but that's another discussion for another day.

[Stringer Bellenson]

I was going to put it in teal, but I didn't want that to be mistaken as a misrepresentation of how much power Daley truely has.   

[Goatherder]

The Heckler is a satirical sports paper, a la The Onion. I don't think Da Mayor actually said that about the college team. He did open the discussion on a second NFL team, which I think Chicago could support but that's another discussion for another day.

Very accurate.  The Heckler is a very funny publication.  You should all pick up a copy if you are in the area of Wrigley, and read it online regularly.  (Oh, all right.  I know the guys who run it.)

[Pardner]

Actually, we can look at the Up-Down argument between the two schools statistically by looking at winning % (see attached file).  It is a pretty fair comparison considering the history of the two schools, both were independents, then in the same conferences, had HOF coaches, etc. 

• Since 1924, the ups and downs between the two schools have gone hand in hand 92% of the time (correlation).  When MU went up, DU went up.  When MU went down. DU went down
• Main exception was when Al arrived--and he started to recruit nationally.  Ray had to adjust his recruiting to compete nationally and DU eventually caught up--and passed MU.  I remember Ray talking about this.  A few recruits here and there swung who was up or down
• There are other anomalies spread out--like NCAA troubles--but generally competition is a good thing
• DU was better earlier, MU better since 1960--but generally as MU goes, so goes DU...and vice versa.  This history suggests DePaul will be back.

[Avenue Commons]

Actually, we can look at the Up-Down argument between the two schools statistically by looking at winning % (see attached file).  It is a pretty fair comparison considering the history of the two schools, both were independents, then in the same conferences, had HOF coaches, etc. 

• Since 1924, the ups and downs between the two schools have gone hand in hand 92% of the time (correlation).  When MU went up, DU went up.  When MU went down. DU went down
• Main exception was when Al arrived--and he started to recruit nationally.  Ray had to adjust his recruiting to compete nationally and DU eventually caught up--and passed MU.  I remember Ray talking about this.  A few recruits here and there swung who was up or down
• There are other anomalies spread out--like NCAA troubles--but generally competition is a good thing
• DU was better earlier, MU better since 1960--but generally as MU goes, so goes DU...and vice versa.  This history suggests DePaul will be back.

Thanks for providing some empirical evidence on the subject. Based on what you've shown, its pretty clear that a good Marquette and a good DePaul not only CAN happen, but HAS happened.

[RawdogDX]

AC i don't get why this is such a sticking point for you.  one recruit can be the difference between a sweet 16 team and a final four team.  ONE.

Can you garuntee with 100% cetanty that if depaul went back in time and made an amazing coaching choice that they wouldn't have gotten JM?  YOu can't.  If they would have made a better hire they MAY have gone after him and very well could have gotten him. But they suck, so they didn't.  And I'm glad, apperently you want to wish JM went to depaul.  (i know you don't but it's about the same as you saying that anyone who doesn't want depaul to be a powerhouse wants to go back to CUSA)

[Pakuni]

AC i don't get why this is such a sticking point for you.  one recruit can be the difference between a sweet 16 team and a final four team.  ONE.

That's true, but ...

1. How likely is it that recruit's decision would come to MU or DePaul? Given recent history - in which the two programs battled hard over one significant player - not very likely at all. An impact player is just as likely, if not more likely, to decide between MU and Wisconsin (Diener, Matthews). Or MU and Illinois (Novak). Or MU and Notre Dame and Purdue (James). Or MU and Pitt (Hayward). The fact remains that over the last 10-15 years, MU and DePaul very rarely have gone toe-to-toe over priority recruits. So for MU to succeed, do UW, Notre Dame, Purdue, Illinois and Pitt all have to be terrible? Apparently not. Someone, again, please explain to me what makes DePaul's struggles a necessary ingredient for MU's success, but not all those other programs.

2. What you're saying now - that one player can have a huge impact on a program - is a far cry from the proposition that started this long (probably too long, apologies for that) discussion: that MU succeeds (and can succeed) only when DePaul fails.

[Marquette84]

Thanks for providing some empirical evidence on the subject. Based on what you've shown, its pretty clear that a good Marquette and a good DePaul not only CAN happen, but HAS happened.

I don't think this shows empirical evidence at all.  It's a demonstration of how to lie with statistics.

For example, according to the chart the 1986-87 season was good for both teams.  

MU, under first year coach Bob Dukiet, finished 16-13.  
Meanwhile, DePaul was 28-3 and reached the Sweet 16.

See--both had winning records!  Both good!  

I, for one, DO NOT consider 86-87 a successful year for MU--certainly not equal to DePaul's success that season. You and Pardner apparently do.  You and I are occupying different universes.    

I'll take a minimum standard of making the NCAA tournament in the same year.  In the 69 years of the NCAA tournament, MU and DePaul have been participants the same year only 6 times--the last occurring 26 years ago.

[jmayer1]

That's true, but ...

How likely is it that recruit's decision would come to MU or DePaul? Given recent history - in which the two programs battled hard over one significant player - not very likely at all. Richardson, Wade

Someone, again, please explain to me what makes DePaul's struggles a necessary ingredient for MU's success, but not all those other programs. Please show me where anybody has said this.  Nobody did, but it definitely helps MU to recruit Chicago if DePaul isn't a force.

What you're saying now - that one player can have a huge impact on a program - is a far cry from the proposition that started this long (probably too long, apologies for that) discussion: that MU succeeds (and can succeed) only when DePaul fails. Again, please show me where anybody has said this.

[Pakuni]

jmayer ... here's the direct quote that started this whole rigrmarole:
Judge for yourself.

"We depend on DePaul's demise"

Not "It helps recruiting in Chicago when DePaul is bad." We depend on DePaul's demise.