Is it over for DePaul?

[Big Daddy Z]

I'll take their Center

[ChicosBailBonds]

No, I think the DePaul game will be tough.  They are young, but talented and have size.  if they are motivated, we could be in trouble.  

If we lose this game mviale, there should be a criminal investigation.  No way this team loses to DePaul under any circumstances.

[Avenue Commons]

It is a shame at what DePaul currently is in Basketball. They had some great teams in the 80's. Their current state does help us from the standpoint of recruiting the Chicago area.

But it would be better that they were more competitive.

Man, they had some great teams back in the day with guys like Aguirre, Bradshaw, Comegys, etc.

You are forgetting about those Pat Kennedy teams from a few year ago that had players like Quentin Richardson, Bobby Simmon, Stephen Hunter and Paul McPherson who all play (or played) in the NBA. Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry also signed with DePaul but obviously never played there and ended up in the NBA.

The rumors around Chicago is that DePaul knows what is going on, but they don't want to put a lot of money into being competitive because they get the Big East money no matter what. Seems awfully short sighted to me, but that's the rumor.

[mviale]

I know the board will see it that way, but I have a different POV.  I think we should respect all of the BE teams as our league is loaded. Even St Johns could beat you.

[Avenue Commons]

I'm glad somebody else recognizes this.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be long before we get the slew of "An improved DePaul will be better for us" nonsense.

A better DePaul has NEVER been good for Marquette.  It sucks media coverage, recruits, and excitement right out of our program. I don't think its a coincidence that our worst performing period of the modern era came at the very time that DePaul was experiencing its best period.  And that our resurgence came as DePaul returned to irrelevance.

The Big East will have its doormat every year, and I'm perfectly happy with DePaul serving that role.

Based on your logic it would beneficial for all for all of the teams in the Big East, with the exception of Marquette, to suck because otherwise it is a drain on Marquette's success. This is a fallacy. If your rivals are strong, you will be strong. A competitive DePaul is good for Marquette and vice versa. Your argument to the contrary is basically just coincidence and has no basis in cause and effect.

[jmayer1]

Based on your logic it would beneficial for all for all of the teams in the Big East, with the exception of Marquette, to suck because otherwise it is a drain on Marquette's success. This is a fallacy. If your rivals are strong, you will be strong. A competitive DePaul is good for Marquette and vice versa. Your argument to the contrary is basically just coincidence and has no basis in cause and effect.

 

None of the 14 other Big East programs are 90 miles from Marquette, thus your first sentence really makes no sense.  If DePaul is good it will indeed take attention away from MU as far as the Chicago high schools (recruits) and media are concerned.

[DegenerateDish]

I'd like to know what DePaul fans think of Jim Doyle, who despite not being the AD or President, is essentially the Wizard of Oz in Lincoln Park. I'd argue he has much more power in athletic decisions than Ponsetto. (Disclaimer: I went to school with Doyle's kids.)

[bma725]

Based on your logic it would beneficial for all for all of the teams in the Big East, with the exception of Marquette, to suck because otherwise it is a drain on Marquette's success. This is a fallacy. If your rivals are strong, you will be strong. A competitive DePaul is good for Marquette and vice versa. Your argument to the contrary is basically just coincidence and has no basis in cause and effect.

Except that DePaul becomes competitive by taking away players that would have gone to MU, thus weakening MU.  For example, look at Mark Aguirre.  He was committed to MU until Al retired, when he decided to go to DePaul.  That basically turned DePaul into a power team from 1978-82, and ended MU's time as a nationally dominant team.  Same with Terry Cummings, who wanted to play with Aguirre in college.  He went to DePaul, making them stronger and MU weaker. 

It happened later on with Quentin Richardson, who was making his choice between MU and DePaul.  MU went after him hard, and if you believed the rumors coming from Wells St. at the time, they got him to verbal on a visit.  Then a few weeks later he goes to DePaul and leaves MU scrambling to fill a scholarship, which they didn't do a good job of.  In short, DePaul goes up, MU goes down.

There's no evidence that having strong rivals makes you stronger.  It hasn't helped teams like Rutgers, Seton Hall and other big conference doormats all over the country.

[PTforMU2010]

If we lose this game mviale, there should be a criminal investigation.  No way this team loses to DePaul under any circumstances.

Lets not overlook DePaul so easily.  Last years game was no picnic, and it was only two years ago that they beat us when we were ranked #13 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=270450305

[The Lens]

Dave Laitao (sp?) did some good things there only a few years ago.  He left for Virginia where he's struggling.  I think DePaul can do it but it takes the right kind of coach (I'll argue forever that the same thing is in play at Marquette....DePaul is proof positive that the program doesn't just make the coach).

Do you really think the DePaul admin and athletic department has made anywhere near the commitment to hoops that MU has?  I do agree that the right coach is very very important (and I think Cords made the right choice in '99), but DePaul has a lot more problems than their coach. A lot.

[Pardner]

Jerry said tonight on his WSCR Show that DeP has to out possession us as it will be a high scoring game, they need to transition well and have no TO's vs. a quick, experienced MU.  Said we have the best three guards in the country with all three "playing for money" next year...two in the NBA.  Took most of the show defending himself, saying they are young, they need time and experience, he had a upperclass team when he took over with only a few scholie's and he had a class leave early, etc.  Trying to buy time for himself, but the guy is a class act as he answered every question.  DeP signed him late into May, so I do think he deserves another year to see if his plan will work.  In all fairness, he does have some good young talent on the team.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

Do you really think the DePaul admin and athletic department has made anywhere near the commitment to hoops that MU has?  I do agree that the right coach is very very important (and I think Cords made the right choice in '99), but DePaul has a lot more problems than their coach. A lot.

No, I do not think they have.  Yet despite that lack of commitment, the RIGHT kind of coach can have some success there.  Proving, in my mind, that many times it's the coach that gets it done, not just the prestige or history of the program as some here have argued.

There's a reason why coaches fail at schools rich in tradition and commitment to winning, because they weren't that great of coaches.  Just as there is a reason why some coaches win at places that don't give a damn about hoops or put enough money into the commitment to win...because they are great coaches.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lets not overlook DePaul so easily.  Last years game was no picnic, and it was only two years ago that they beat us when we were ranked #13 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=270450305

DePaul is 0-6 this year and has so horrid non-conference losses.  MU is 5-0, the game is at home, the last game for McNeal to play against his Chicago guys at home.   Two years ago DePaul had some talent and was 20-14.  They went three games deep into the NIT.

This year's DePaul team will likely finish 0-18 or no better than 2-16 in the conference and will not make any tournament at all.

We need to compare apples to apples.....this year's apples don't look anything like the apples of two years ago on the DePaul side.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Except that DePaul becomes competitive by taking away players that would have gone to MU, thus weakening MU.  For example, look at Mark Aguirre.  He was committed to MU until Al retired, when he decided to go to DePaul.  That basically turned DePaul into a power team from 1978-82, and ended MU's time as a nationally dominant team.  Same with Terry Cummings, who wanted to play with Aguirre in college.  He went to DePaul, making them stronger and MU weaker. 

It happened later on with Quentin Richardson, who was making his choice between MU and DePaul.  MU went after him hard, and if you believed the rumors coming from Wells St. at the time, they got him to verbal on a visit.  Then a few weeks later he goes to DePaul and leaves MU scrambling to fill a scholarship, which they didn't do a good job of.  In short, DePaul goes up, MU goes down.

There's no evidence that having strong rivals makes you stronger.  It hasn't helped teams like Rutgers, Seton Hall and other big conference doormats all over the country.

I'd argue they got MU's players from 1978-82 because Hank took over the program and the steady slide was underway.

[Goatherder]

 

None of the 14 other Big East programs are 90 miles from Marquette, thus your first sentence really makes no sense.  If DePaul is good it will indeed take attention away from MU as far as the Chicago high schools (recruits) and media are concerned.

Madison is closer to Marquette than Lincoln Park.  On the current Marquette roster, there is exactly two players who came from theN Chicago area.  One was reportedly not recruited much by De Paul, and the other was not recruited by either Marquette or De Paul.  Next year, Marquette has five recruits coming in, none from Chicago.  This year, we have two recruits. both from Texas.  We lost two others, one from Alabama and the other from New Jersey.  They were replaced by players from Texas and Canada.  We have a commitment for one player for 2010, from Florida.  By next year, there will be twice as many Canadians on the team as Chicagoans.

OTOH, of five players coming in next year, two are from Wisconsin, and one is from the home of the state's largest public university.  We have recruited other players in recent years, and several from Wisconsin have played here.  Others have signed with the University of Wisconsin, including at least one McDonald's all-American, and one who went on to marry a member of the Marquette women's team.  During that time, the University of Wisconsin, has usually been nationally ranked,  has made repeated trips to the NCAA tournament, including a Final Four apperance, and played in the same regional as Marquette in the Sweet Sixteen.  Being the largest public university in the state, it has gotten a huge amount of press coverage, even sometimes getting more detailed coverage in the Milwaukee area on days after Marquette won a big game. 

What a terrible shame that the success of the University of Wisconsin has lead to a decline in the fortunes of Marquette!  We can only hope that Wisconsin returns to its years of mediocrity, as this is the only period of time in which Marquette has had any success.

[Chili]

Madison is closer to Marquette than Lincoln Park. 

By 3 miles.

[freshjive2103]

Took most of the show defending himself, saying they are young, they need time and experience, he had a upperclass team when he took over with only a few scholie's and he had a class leave early, etc.  Trying to buy time for himself, but the guy is a class act as he answered every question.  DeP signed him late into May, so I do think he deserves another year to see if his plan will work.  In all fairness, he does have some good young talent on the team.  

Pardner - in the four years Jerry has been here, two consistent things have come from his mouth; 1. This team needs to improve it's strength and conditioning and they have. 2. This team is young.

If his plan is to ride DePaul into a flat line state, then yes... he deserves another year. However, his excuses have gotten extremely tiresome to nearly everyone who follows DePaul.

[jce]

Based on your logic it would beneficial for all for all of the teams in the Big East, with the exception of Marquette, to suck because otherwise it is a drain on Marquette's success. This is a fallacy. If your rivals are strong, you will be strong. A competitive DePaul is good for Marquette and vice versa. Your argument to the contrary is basically just coincidence and has no basis in cause and effect.

Why would MU get stronger with a good DePaul team?  I mean, I understand that MU might not necessarily become weaker with a strong De Paul program, but how would MU get stronger?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Madison is closer to Marquette than Lincoln Park.  On the current Marquette roster, there is exactly two players who came from theN Chicago area.  One was reportedly not recruited much by De Paul, and the other was not recruited by either Marquette or De Paul.  Next year, Marquette has five recruits coming in, none from Chicago.  This year, we have two recruits. both from Texas.  We lost two others, one from Alabama and the other from New Jersey.  They were replaced by players from Texas and Canada.  We have a commitment for one player for 2010, from Florida.  By next year, there will be twice as many Canadians on the team as Chicagoans.

OTOH, of five players coming in next year, two are from Wisconsin, and one is from the home of the state's largest public university.  We have recruited other players in recent years, and several from Wisconsin have played here.  Others have signed with the University of Wisconsin, including at least one McDonald's all-American, and one who went on to marry a member of the Marquette women's team.  During that time, the University of Wisconsin, has usually been nationally ranked,  has made repeated trips to the NCAA tournament, including a Final Four apperance, and played in the same regional as Marquette in the Sweet Sixteen.  Being the largest public university in the state, it has gotten a huge amount of press coverage, even sometimes getting more detailed coverage in the Milwaukee area on days after Marquette won a big game. 

What a terrible shame that the success of the University of Wisconsin has lead to a decline in the fortunes of Marquette!  We can only hope that Wisconsin returns to its years of mediocrity, as this is the only period of time in which Marquette has had any success.

While I hate the badgers as much (if not more) than the next guy, I'm not sure that the ONLY time MU has had success is with a weak UW. UW has been pretty good over the past 10 years, and so has MU. In fact, the rivalry gets high rankings from ESPN. If one of the programs completely tanks, the rivalry will still exist locally, but not nationally (like it does now) which draw attention to both schools. 

There are pluses and minuses to having a good/weak UW.

[downtown85]

I think Goatherder forgot the teal. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If I missed the sarcasm, I apologize.

[Avenue Commons]

Jerry said tonight on his WSCR Show that DeP has to out possession us as it will be a high scoring game, they need to transition well and have no TO's vs. a quick, experienced MU.  Said we have the best three guards in the country with all three "playing for money" next year...two in the NBA.  Took most of the show defending himself, saying they are young, they need time and experience, he had a upperclass team when he took over with only a few scholie's and he had a class leave early, etc.  Trying to buy time for himself, but the guy is a class act as he answered every question.  DeP signed him late into May, so I do think he deserves another year to see if his plan will work.  In all fairness, he does have some good young talent on the team.  

He is a class act and you can tell he sincerely cares about his kids and the game of basketball. I just don't think he was the right guy for the job. I was surprised when Leitao bolted for Virginia. I think with him DPU could have really been a force to reckon with.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/1391475,CST-SPT-greg22.article

Looks like a wrong season
Everything about DePaul seems off, but it's not Wainwright's fault

January 22, 2009
BY GREG COUCH Sun-Times Columnist

Jerry Wainwright, DePaul, the Big East Conference. It just doesn't fit.

DePaul is headed straight for a winless conference season. This team is a shrub in a forest.

Remember those great days of the late 1970s and early '80s? Mark Aguirre and Coach Ray and all that. Of course you do, DePaul fans.

That's your problem. Enjoy the memories, but move on. College basketball has morphed into a different animal, of huge, high-stakes dollars, shoe-company control, AAU infiltration and street agents. Besides, DePaul doesn't have a superstation anymore.

Categories have been formed, and you can't expect a mid-major basketball program to play with the biggest of the big time.

It's the wrong team in the wrong place, trying to rebuild with young players at exactly the wrong time, with a budget and an attitude that don't fit.
In a difficult situation

Wrong coach? Well, that's what DePaul fans think. And he has done absolutely nothing to show that they're wrong. You cannot lose twice to South Florida, get thumped by Northwestern and lose at home to Morgan State. Not with a coach in his fourth season.

That said, the only thing Wainwright has shown is that he can fail when put in an impossible situation.

''I don't think I'm dreaming,'' he said. ''I'm positive about our direction. Does that mean it's not painful? No. My wife says I'm losing weight, I'm a little grayer. It takes its toll.''

Wainwright is not used to the boos or the increasingly empty seats. DePaul needs Catholic School week, or whatever they called it, to get people to come to the games? It has to discount tickets for fans to come see the Blue Demons play Pittsburgh, which might be a Final Four team?

At a recent pregame function, athletic director Jean Lenti Ponsetto, according to one season-ticket holder, all but chewed out a group of boosters for booing players.

''All you need is one kid to get another kid,'' Wainwright said. ''I have long-range goals, and the school has long-range goals. You can't be frustrated by short-term failure.''

I'm inclined to think Wainwright deserves one more year, no matter his substitution patterns. But he has driven DePaul right off the map.

The team is so irrelevant that it took me this long to bother to point it out. Oh, I remember the days. DePaul-UCLA, national TV, the thrill.

Now I'm doing it.

When DePaul hired Wainwright, he was the king of the mid-majors, having had success at North Carolina-Wilmington and Richmond. He was about defense and discipline, a good guy who, at 58, would commit to DePaul for the rest of his career.

DePaul chose this path. It had its hot young coach in Dave Leitao, who was offered big bucks to go to a big-time program. DePaul didn't match.

That was a choice not so much about Leitao, but about DePaul. The school was headed for the Big East to play with the biggest of big boys but didn't want to pay up for a coach.
Stuck in the middle

That half-attitude has put DePaul in this spot. DePaul is a 'tweener, always stuck between big-time and not. Lenti Ponsetto scoured the likes of Western Michigan, Creighton and Dayton for a coach, landing on Wainwright.

He's a good coach, a solid coach. He preaches the fundamentals, though you can't see that in today's team, and can sit in a living room on a recruiting trip and leave mothers knowing their sons will be safe.

He was not a splashy hire, just when DePaul needed to make a statement. But DePaul wasn't going to pay to make a statement.

From there, Wainwright was the right hire. DePaul always has this mom-and-pop family feel and doesn't even have its own arena. Lenti Ponsetto is the queen of this family. It's all so respectable and nice and right.

But it's not going to work in the Big East. Mid-majors pop up every NCAA tournament and win a round or two. But they can't beat these major programs day in, day out.

DePaul is only pretending.

Wainwright disagrees.

''The school has really stepped forward,'' he said. ''Step-by-step, the school has hired a high-level weight staff, upgraded the locker room, added personnel in academics.

''Look at the placement of St. John's, Villanova, Seton Hall, Marquette. In terms of where's the best place for an urban, Catholic school, we're in the right place.''

Wainwright pointed out that the team has access to charter planes. That's not something a Big East coach should need to point out as a benefit.

I don't mean to let Wainwright off that easily. One more year is not meant as a strong endorsement. He has lost to some bad teams, not only to powerhouses. But his best players are sophomores: 6-10 Mac Koshwal and 6-4 Dar Tucker. At times, Koshwal disappears and Tucker plays without discipline.

Other coaches get plenty out of freshmen these days, why not Wainwright? Because he's not going to land the ultimate blue-chip recruits. Not at DePaul.

''It's been very difficult for our sophomores to recognize they're the first two guys on everybody's scouting report,'' Wainwright said. ''But Mac has put on 15 pounds, and Dar can bench-press over 300 pounds. You see all the individual improvement.

''It'll click. At some point, it really will.''

I don't know. The meat of the league season is coming, and the Demons are about to be crushed every night, which doesn't do much for young players' confidence or spirits.

And if DePaul dumps Wainwright, will it pay up for a big-dollar coach? Will it hire another Leitao, who then will leave?

The thing is, nothing fits.

[Avenue Commons]

Except that DePaul becomes competitive by taking away players that would have gone to MU, thus weakening MU.  For example, look at Mark Aguirre.  He was committed to MU until Al retired, when he decided to go to DePaul.  That basically turned DePaul into a power team from 1978-82, and ended MU's time as a nationally dominant team.  Same with Terry Cummings, who wanted to play with Aguirre in college.  He went to DePaul, making them stronger and MU weaker. 

It happened later on with Quentin Richardson, who was making his choice between MU and DePaul.  MU went after him hard, and if you believed the rumors coming from Wells St. at the time, they got him to verbal on a visit.  Then a few weeks later he goes to DePaul and leaves MU scrambling to fill a scholarship, which they didn't do a good job of.  In short, DePaul goes up, MU goes down.

There's no evidence that having strong rivals makes you stronger.  It hasn't helped teams like Rutgers, Seton Hall and other big conference doormats all over the country.

Again, your logic is flawed. You are all operating on the idea that these Chicago kids are either going to A) DePaul or B) Marquette and they pick one or the other. In the grand scheme of things they could go to any number of schools. And if proximity is so bad how come it hasn't hurt North Carolina, Duke, and Wake Forest? They all seem to be doing OK and are right on top of each other.

It's my position that kids are attracted to schools that have strong rivals. Strong rivals also require you to raise your game consistently to remain competitive. For selfish reasons as a fan, its also a lot more fun if the DePaul, Notre Dame and Wisconsin games are competitive.

I've heard the rumors as well, but Q ended up at DePaul so its hard to believe it was ever that close. I never heard that Aguirre committed to MU. Is this true? He was a Chicago kid who wanted to stay in Chicago is what I always thought.

Anyways, DePaul didn't keep us from getting Jerel and D Wade who were both from Chicago. DePaul certainly didn't keep us from gettting DJ (Indiana) and Matthews, Novak and Diener (Wisconsin). MU got those players on their own, not in spite of DePaul.

[Avenue Commons]

Madison is closer to Marquette than Lincoln Park.  On the current Marquette roster, there is exactly two players who came from theN Chicago area.  One was reportedly not recruited much by De Paul, and the other was not recruited by either Marquette or De Paul.  Next year, Marquette has five recruits coming in, none from Chicago.  This year, we have two recruits. both from Texas.  We lost two others, one from Alabama and the other from New Jersey.  They were replaced by players from Texas and Canada.  We have a commitment for one player for 2010, from Florida.  By next year, there will be twice as many Canadians on the team as Chicagoans.

OTOH, of five players coming in next year, two are from Wisconsin, and one is from the home of the state's largest public university.  We have recruited other players in recent years, and several from Wisconsin have played here.  Others have signed with the University of Wisconsin, including at least one McDonald's all-American, and one who went on to marry a member of the Marquette women's team.  During that time, the University of Wisconsin, has usually been nationally ranked,  has made repeated trips to the NCAA tournament, including a Final Four apperance, and played in the same regional as Marquette in the Sweet Sixteen.  Being the largest public university in the state, it has gotten a huge amount of press coverage, even sometimes getting more detailed coverage in the Milwaukee area on days after Marquette won a big game. 

What a terrible shame that the success of the University of Wisconsin has lead to a decline in the fortunes of Marquette!  We can only hope that Wisconsin returns to its years of mediocrity, as this is the only period of time in which Marquette has had any success.

Bam! Yeah, what he said. Great post. Welcome to the board.

[AlumKCof93]

You are forgetting about those Pat Kennedy teams from a few year ago that had players like Quentin Richardson, Bobby Simmon, Stephen Hunter and Paul McPherson who all play (or played) in the NBA. Wilson Chandler and Eddy Curry also signed with DePaul but obviously never played there and ended up in the NBA.

The rumors around Chicago is that DePaul knows what is going on, but they don't want to put a lot of money into being competitive because they get the Big East money no matter what. Seems awfully short sighted to me, but that's the rumor.

I believe this rumor.  If I'm DePaul, I realize how difficult it will be to turn the program around without spending an enormous amount of cash.  To attract a high end coach, DePaul wld need to build a new facility to replace the Allstate and it would need to be near campus.  Due to the cost of real estate in the city and the fact that they haven't done so yet, I don't think DePaul will do it anytime soon.  Without the facility, no high level coach will go near DePaul especially since DePaul hasn't given anyone the thought that they are committed to the program (this was particularly true when they didn't pony up to keep Leitao).  To turn the program around, they'll need to catch lightning in a bottle with a young, unproven head coach and then they'll be need to commit to him once he starts getting offers from other programs.  Until they hire the young unproven coach, they'll continue to be down b/c there isn't much of a reason for high-level recruits to go there.  When DePaul hired Wainwright, they did so as they they thought he'd keep the program clean (unlike Kennedy), he'd stick around (unlike Leitao) and he wouldn't force them to commit to the program.  So DePaul is pretty much where they decided to be.  For that reason, Wainwright could get another year or two.