If Crean Stayed, How Would Things Be Different?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lets put it this way Chicos, if Tom Crean was at Marquette right now and Buzz Williams wasn't, Erik Williams would not be coming to Marquette.   If Buzz Williams was at Marquette and Tom Crean wasn't Erik Williams was still coming to Marquette(as is the case).   Maybe if Buzz left after Erik's junior year Erik would tough it out alone in Wisconsin but these are all hypotheticals.   The relationship Buzz has with Erik is very strong either way as I stated before the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  So if you want to credit Crean with Erik so be it.   

Perhaps, I tend to take the word of the kid when he says he was coming to Marquette no matter what.  Why should I not believe the kid?

[mviale]

Chicos - you can believe the kid. However, the kid aint coming to milwaukee without a Texas connection.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The facts are you didn't like the hiring process.   Absolutely correct...I've also said from day one that I hope that Buzz succeeds and believe that he can succeed
The facts are you were a huge supporter of TC.  Of his accomplishments, yes...2nd best run in MU history...kids graduating, Final Four, NCAAs routine, attendance highest in MU history...did you not like the 2nd best run in MU history?  I did...perhaps because I went to school during the Dukiet era and worked at MU during the Deane era
The facts are that MU played and beat two teams ranked in the top 25.  Absolutely correct...also equally correct is that neither will be ranked this Monday
The facts are if listen to experts West Virginia and Villanova will in all likelihood make the NCAA tourny.  WVU yes, Nova...been a bubble pick all year long
The facts are everyone is saying the Big East is one of the toughest conferences around this year.  I've been saying the same thing all year long
The facts are most every expert is saying 9 teams from the Big East will make the tourny.  Yup, I think even 10 is possible.  Remember, I was the one last year that said 8 from the start and got into many an argument here with folks who kept saying 6 or 7....look it up.  I'm high on this conference and always have been.
The facts are you are minimizing the accomplishments of what this team has done over the last 4 games.  How am I minimizing them?  We've won 3 home games, we played one of the worst teams in the conference on the road.  Shouldn't we win those 4 games with the makeup of this team?
The facts are you were always the glass is half full type of MU supporter when TC was here and now you take digs on the team whenever you can.   What "digs" am I taking at this team?  Here's where it's kind of funny...you say I love TC so much, then why wouldn't I love this team since they are essentially 99% of TC's guys playing on it?  Ahh....oh yeah.      I love this team and I'll say it for the 5000th time, I think Buzz is doing a great job this year.  I just don't lick his balls like some of here do.  Some are in rebound mode...they hated Crean so much that whomever is pacing the sidelines they're in full blown Viagra mode over.  I need more time, more data to decide for myself if he's the guy.  Too many people thought Bruiser Flint was the guy, Steve Lavin was the guy, Mike Deane was the guy, etc, etc.  I'm sorry if I need more time.  Some of you are love at first site type of guys, I'm not.  I need a LONG run before I'm going there.  But for the 5001st time, Buzz is doing a great job this year.  He's not screwing up a perfect opportunity with arguably the best senior class in MU history. Now, is that a dig or is that a fact?  I guess it depends how often one licks balls to determine that.     I think it's a fact, name me another senior class that is better than this one.

The fact is I was a huge TC supporter but a bigger MU supporter.  I am as well
The fact is the jury is still out on Buzz but he has really impressed me with his basketball knowledge.  Completely agree

Oh yea and as far as list above goes, I am being more than fair to you as I'm just using facts.      Fair enough...peace

See above

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos - you can believe the kid. However, the kid aint coming to milwaukee without a Texas connection.

Yes, I believe the kid....no need to call him a liar.  I do believe the words out of his mouth.

[Blackhat]

Perhaps, I tend to take the word of the kid when he says he was coming to Marquette no matter what.  Why should I not believe the kid?

This is my last post b/c this debate is lame but if you want to play this game Chicos that's fine.  You want evidence and printed words. I happen to believe Erik Williams head basketball coach John Harmatuk:
"When Erik found out Buzz got the job, it didn't take long for him to make a decision," Harmatuk said. "It's all about relationships because you are going to spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week with the guy. For Erik, Marquette and Buzz Williams was a comfort decision."

[mviale]

Its obvious to me stone cold - EW came here for Tom Crean.

[MR.HAYWARD]

well my name came up for so i fugured i woulod wade in.  I have never so much as for a second even considered rooting against MU.  Always cheer for Mu with every fiber of my being....I just hated Crean as a person and thought we could do better...IMO right now we have a better coach, a better ercruiter, and a 100x higher character guy...so yes I am very happy

[The Lens]

How sad, but it confirms what I've always thought....you guys actually cheered against Marquette, your alma mater.  Really sad, really really sad on your part.

I cheer for MU wildly, come sleet, snow, negative temperatures, I'm cheering and watching and excited whomever the coach is.  It's Marquette.



For you to admit what I think many of us knew, that you were cheering AGAINST MU because you didn't like the coach....says a lot quite frankly.  It's pretty sad.  No other way to say it.  Really sad.  No wonder why Deane, O'Neill, Crean, Majerus said the same exact thing about our fans and how they were to deal with.  Sad.  No wonder each one wanted to get out of Marquette so damn fast.  Fans cheering against them because they didn't like them personally.

It wasn't sad Chicos, it was fun, sort of a challenge to night in and night out bring it for our opponent.  It did get expensive though; every game I had to buy a new team's jersey and then we switched from CUSA to the Big East, and I know no longer need my Tulane jersey.  Also the Blue & Gold Classic was especially tough, never knew the Saturday opponent until 6pm on Friday, had to drop a ton on FedEx to get "My New Favorite Team's" jersey (GO WINTHROP!!!!) in time for the Saturday game.  Do you know how much Saturday FedEx delivery is?  One year money was tight and I opted for body paint...I was the guy with UT-San Antonio on his chest.

Oh yeah, I also spent the time traveling to all the big Lamar and Wagner games. 

[wadesworld]

It wasn't sad Chicos, it was fun, sort of a challenge to night in and night out bring it for our opponent.  It did get expensive though; every game I had to buy a new team's jersey and then we switched from CUSA to the Big East, and I know no longer need my Tulane jersey.  Also the Blue & Gold Classic was especially tough, never knew the Saturday opponent until 6pm on Friday, had to drop a ton on FedEx to get "My New Favorite Team's" jersey (GO WINTHROP!!!!) in time for the Saturday game.  Do you know how much Saturday FedEx delivery is?  One year money was tight and I opted for body paint...I was the guy with UT-San Antonio on his chest.

Oh yeah, I also spent the time traveling to all the big Lamar and Wagner games.

^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THIS IS THE FUNNIEST F'ING POST I'VE EVER READ ON HERE!

[79Warrior]

Since the season is just past the half-way point ......

15 -2 overall, 4 - 0 in the BE.
One of the better recruiting classes in the last 20 years.

If Crean stayed, how could he have improved on things?  Would it have even been this good?

Can we proclaim the Buzz hiring a sucess?  If not, what more do we need to see before we can proclaim it sucessful?

Proclaim it a success when he wins with his own recruits.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is my last post b/c this debate is lame but if you want to play this game Chicos that's fine.  You want evidence and printed words. I happen to believe Erik Williams head basketball coach John Harmatuk:
"When Erik found out Buzz got the job, it didn't take long for him to make a decision," Harmatuk said. "It's all about relationships because you are going to spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week with the guy. For Erik, Marquette and Buzz Williams was a comfort decision."

Yup, of course you didn't include this part of the quote Stone Cold....I'll include it for you in case you missed it.  I'm really not sure why you chose to skip those quotes, but I'm happy to offer them for you.   


"Despite everything that has gone on, I remain strongly committed to Marquette University," Erik Williams said. "Coach Crean is a great person and coach, but the more I thought about it, I committed to Marquette because of everything that it stands for and has to offer. In the south, everything is football. At Marquette, basketball is the main focus."

"Erik's parents really value a Jesuit education," Harmatuk said. "Erik went to a Jesuit school (Strake Jesuit) as a freshman. His parents are very impressed with Marquette as a university, first and foremost."

[Blackhat]

Ah, that does nothing to counter what Harmatuk says.   So unless Harmatuk is lying(which he isn't) then anybody but a stubborn jack___ like you're being would realize the kid came to Marquette because of Buzz. 

[Marquette84]

Ah, that does nothing to counter what Harmatuk says.   So unless Harmatuk is lying(which he isn't) then anybody but a stubborn jack___ like you're being would realize the kid came to Marquette because of Buzz. 

Erik said:  "I committed to Marquette because of everything that it stands for and has to offer."

I'll take Erik's word over his HS coach when it comes to explaining what Erik is thinking.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Oh come on DK, I knew you were kidding....I think.   

[patso]

I would like to clarify what I meant. I think the free wheeling style is better for this team and Crean did not always let his players use their natural talent as he tended to impose a framework on the game.This being said, you can lose games by being too improvisational and perhaps we will lose a few under Buzz with an ill advised three pointer or offensive foul . Crean won conservatively which is not indeed a negative per se. I myself prefer Buzz' style of basketball win or lose.

[mugrack]

Screw Crean .

[mviale]

Can Matthews sue Crean for hurting his NBA chances over the last 3 seasons?

[cheebs09]

I would like to clarify what I meant. I think the free wheeling style is better for this team and Crean did not always let his players use their natural talent as he tended to impose a framework on the game.This being said, you can lose games by being too improvisational and perhaps we will lose a few under Buzz with an ill advised three pointer or offensive foul . Crean won conservatively which is not indeed a negative per se. I myself prefer Buzz' style of basketball win or lose.

I really agree, I feel that with a team that is real strong on fundamentals and smart, a pretty tight system like UW is the best way to go. Since they wont make mistakes, they can methodically run an offense and rely on the other teams mistakes. However, a team like ours with a lot of athletes, I feel an offense that allows them to make plays works better. They use their strengths to make things happen that can't necessarily be scripted, especially since we have seen that we have a guy that can keep it all together and make good decisions in James.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ah, that does nothing to counter what Harmatuk says.   So unless Harmatuk is lying(which he isn't) then anybody but a stubborn jack___ like you're being would realize the kid came to Marquette because of Buzz. 

Sigh....when did I EVER say the kid didn't come to MU because of Buzz?  When?  Of course Buzz was the common theme, the Texas connection, etc.  But let's get reality into the equation, when he verballed to play for Tom Crean and Marquette he was putting his basketball career into Tom Crean's hands, not Buzz Williams.  Tom Crean determines who plays, where he plays, how often he plays.  He's the head coach.  He didn't commit to MU thinking Buzz would call the shots back when Crean was the HC.

What I said is that he would not leave, most likely, if Buzz wasn't here.  A DISTINCT difference.  If Buzz went to some other school, I doubt Williams follows him, especially if Buzz went to some low level school to be a head coach.

His own words said the more he thought about it, he wanted to go to Marquette.

Again, where did I EVER say he didn't come because of the Buzz connection?  I didn't.  But we all know he verballed to MU when Crean was here at MU and if Buzz wasn't at MU, he'd still be coming unless Buzz went to IU....and even then I doubt EW would have gone to IU, that would have been interesting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I would like to clarify what I meant. I think the free wheeling style is better for this team and Crean did not always let his players use their natural talent as he tended to impose a framework on the game.This being said, you can lose games by being too improvisational and perhaps we will lose a few under Buzz with an ill advised three pointer or offensive foul . Crean won conservatively which is not indeed a negative per se. I myself prefer Buzz' style of basketball win or lose.

I agree as well....with a team as experienced as this one, letting them loose is a good move because they're still grounded in what got them there.  It's the best of both worlds.

However, I'm betting with a very inexperienced team next year, just letting them freelance is a recipe for disaster.  But we shall see. 

The makeup of this team gives Buzz options galore which is great for Buzz and great for the team (and the fans). 

[mviale]

Might be as bad as the post wade team - ugghh  losing to central michigan

[Blackhat]

Count me as not surprised the two Crean d-suckers want to believe a Houston, Tx kid in Erik Williams came to Marquette because we're beautiful and the only Jesuit non football school in the nation.   


Since it obviously wasn't Crean it must be the school!

[wadesworld]

Sigh....when did I EVER say the kid didn't come to MU because of Buzz?  When?  Of course Buzz was the common theme, the Texas connection, etc.  But let's get reality into the equation, when he verballed to play for Tom Crean and Marquette he was putting his basketball career into Tom Crean's hands, not Buzz Williams.  Tom Crean determines who plays, where he plays, how often he plays.  He's the head coach.  He didn't commit to MU thinking Buzz would call the shots back when Crean was the HC.

What I said is that he would not leave, most likely, if Buzz wasn't here.  A DISTINCT difference.  If Buzz went to some other school, I doubt Williams follows him, especially if Buzz went to some low level school to be a head coach.

His own words said the more he thought about it, he wanted to go to Marquette.

Again, where did I EVER say he didn't come because of the Buzz connection?  I didn't.  But we all know he verballed to MU when Crean was here at MU and if Buzz wasn't at MU, he'd still be coming unless Buzz went to IU....and even then I doubt EW would have gone to IU, that would have been interesting.

I would argue that who the coach is when a player signs his National Letter of Intent is the coach that player commits to.  It is far less common for a player to back out of a verbal commitment over backing out of his Letter of Intent.  The school has to allow for that in most cases, whereas backing out from a verbal a school does not.  Crean was not the coach when Williams signed his Letter of Intent.  Buzz was.  Buzz was also the one who recruited Williams.  Williams is a Buzz recruit.  He is part of Buzz's 2009 recruiting class, not Tom Creans 2009 recruiting class.  It is one of the top recruiting classes in the nation.

If you need the facts to back that up, since you seem to love those, here is Marquette's 2009 commits, of which Tom Crean has nothing to do because he is no longer at Marquette, so they must be the current head coach's recruits, since the head coach ALWAYS gets the credit, right :
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=8&yr=2009
Says Erik Williams is a Marquette 2009 recruit, so he must be a Buzz recruit, not a Crean recruit.

Here is Tom Crean's 2009 recruiting class:
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&c=8&cfg=bb&toinid=406&sspid=-1&yr=2009
Nowhere do I see Erik Williams, and since this is Tom Crean's class, and the same class as Erik Williams, he must not be a Tom Crean recruit.

Weird.

[Marquette84]

I would argue that who the coach is when a player signs his National Letter of Intent is the coach that player commits to.  It is far less common for a player to back out of a verbal commitment over backing out of his Letter of Intent.  The school has to allow for that in most cases, whereas backing out from a verbal a school does not.  Crean was not the coach when Williams signed his Letter of Intent.  Buzz was.  Buzz was also the one who recruited Williams.  Williams is a Buzz recruit.  He is part of Buzz's 2009 recruiting class, not Tom Creans 2009 recruiting class.  It is one of the top recruiting classes in the nation.

If you need the facts to back that up, since you seem to love those, here is Marquette's 2009 commits, of which Tom Crean has nothing to do because he is no longer at Marquette, so they must be the current head coach's recruits, since the head coach ALWAYS gets the credit, right :
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=8&yr=2009
Says Erik Williams is a Marquette 2009 recruit, so he must be a Buzz recruit, not a Crean recruit.

Here is Tom Crean's 2009 recruiting class:
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&c=8&cfg=bb&toinid=406&sspid=-1&yr=2009
Nowhere do I see Erik Williams, and since this is Tom Crean's class, and the same class as Erik Williams, he must not be a Tom Crean recruit.

Weird.

I think you miss the point.  The title of the thread is "If Crean Stayed . . ."     

Stone Cold made the statement that Erik Williams had no affinity at all toward Marquette whatsoever.

Chicos raised what seemed like a reasonable scenario where Erik would still be at Marquette even if Buzz left:  Specifically, had Buzz taken a low-major head coaching job somewhere.  That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

But no, apparently, we've reached the point where one has to be a "Crean d-sucker" to believe that a kid who says that he values Jesuit education, that he wants a basketball only school, and that he likes everything about Marquette would abandon that choice simply because the guy who initially recruited him to Marquette got a low-level head coaching job somewhere else. 

[bilsu]

I am already convinced that Buzz is a better coach than Crean. In todays game we were down 8 in the first half and after a timeout Buzz comes out with a zone press that turned the game around. We have seen him make adjustments in other games that also changed the game around. He completely changed our defensive philosphy to playing defense with our feet instead of our hands. We now ususally make more free throws than the other team shoots. He also completely revamped our offense. I like this motion offense much better than the detailed plays that Crean would run. All you have to do is watch Indiana play to see how it use to be here. Crean's Indiana team has already lost two home games after having 20 point leads. Buzz is flat out a better coach. Having said that we will take some serious lumps next year in the Big East, because of our lack of experience.