If Crean Stayed, How Would Things Be Different?

[Tugg Speedman]

Since the season is just past the half-way point ......

15 -2 overall, 4 - 0 in the BE.
One of the better recruiting classes in the last 20 years.

If Crean stayed, how could he have improved on things?  Would it have even been this good?

Can we proclaim the Buzz hiring a sucess?  If not, what more do we need to see before we can proclaim it sucessful?

[OneMadWarrior]

Wow, overreact Much?

[Fred Garvin]

We would have had at least two or three players hurt because they would be practicing in shoulder pads.Dominic would be suffering from cramps all the time.We would be pushing diet pepsi.Burke wouldn't be developing as the season goes on because we wouldn't have ass. coaches who work with big guys.That's for starters.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Since the season is just past the half-way point ......

15 -2 overall, 4 - 0 in the BE.
One of the better recruiting classes in the last 20 years.

If Crean stayed, how could he have improved on things?  Would it have even been this good?

Can we proclaim the Buzz hiring a sucess?  If not, what more do we need to see before we can proclaim it sucessful?

We'll never know, impossible to tell.   We would have Nick Williams on this team along with Tyshawn Taylor (who STARTS for national champion Kansas).  Taylor would probably be our 6th man I would guess.  Williams would be somewhere around  8th.  Butler would not be on the team. 


The record would likely be identical....our 4-0 start in the Big East is against 4 teams that all have losing records in the Big East (Nova 1-2, WVU 1-2, Rutgers 0-3, UC 0-2).  Hard to fathom we wouldn't have the same record in conference considering who we've played thus far.  If you disagree, fine but I'd like to know who we wouldn't have beaten in those 4 games considering three of them were at home and MU had a phenomenal record at home under Crean.


So it's impossible to say, but my guess is the record would be the same.  Which games that we have won do you think we would have lost? 

[Blackhat]

We'll never know, impossible to tell.   We would have Nick Williams on this team along with Tyshawn Taylor.  Taylor would probably be our 6th man I would guess.  Williams would be somewhere around  8th.  Butler would not be on the team. 


The record would likely be identical....our 4-0 start in the Big East is against 4 teams that all have losing records in the Big East.  Hard to fathom we wouldn't have the same record in conference. 


So it's impossible to say, but my guess is the record would be the same.  Which games that we have won do you think we would have lost? 

Rutgers?   Just kidding (sort of) but this is silly man.   Crean is a good coach and we were trending toward a year and BE start like this.   Buzz still has much to prove, so lets just be happy we're meeting or exceding expectations and not worry about Crean.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We would have had at least two or three players hurt because they would be practicing in shoulder pads.Dominic would be suffering from cramps all the time.We would be pushing diet pepsi.Burke wouldn't be developing as the season goes on because we wouldn't have ass. coaches who work with big guys.That's for starters.

Unlike the three players we've had hurt this year in practice....McMorrow, Fulce, Otule...right.   

[MarquetteDano]

Since the season is just past the half-way point ......

15 -2 overall, 4 - 0 in the BE.
One of the better recruiting classes in the last 20 years.

If Crean stayed, how could he have improved on things?  Would it have even been this good?

Can we proclaim the Buzz hiring a sucess?  If not, what more do we need to see before we can proclaim it sucessful?

The Crean-Buzz comparisons really shouldn't be closed until Buzz has an entire class graduate of his own.  I understand people want to do it early, and there are some valid points one can compare on already, but the true test will be four years from now.  Then we can perform a full comparison and decide whether the hire was an success.

[77ncaachamps]

TT is starting for a team who's being doubled up right now.

The Crean-Buzz comparisons really shouldn't be closed until Buzz has an entire class graduate of his own.  I understand people want to do it early, and there are some valid points one can compare on already, but the true test will be four years from now.  Then we can perform a full comparison and decide whether the hire was an success.

Agreed. What happens AFTER this year is probably the BIGGEST thing that will happen to Buzz, second only to being hired at MU.

[Fred Garvin]

Were they hurt due to the extreme methods Crean used?

[tower912]

The only difference would be the style of offense and the incoming recruit class.   Impossible to say if our record would be different.    TC is getting his this year.   Accept the karma and move on. 

[MR.HAYWARD]

i beleive we would have lost to WVU, Rutgers and NCSU is Tommy Naismith were coaching and we would be 11-5 right now.  Typical Cream on our way to a 6-7-8 seed and a double didgit loss season. IMO

[ChicosBailBonds]

TT is starting for a team who's being doubled up right now.

Agreed. What happens AFTER this year is probably the BIGGEST thing that will happen to Buzz, second only to being hired at MU.

That's correct, but he's still starting for KU....a team that I believe beat Tennessee, beat Washington.  Today they are losing, but let's not forget the good wins they have as well with TT starting for them.

Barry Switzer could could this year's team to success.

We'll know a lot more about Buzz in several years.

This year's senior class is arguably the greatest in MU's history.  I said arguably....I can't imagine them not being in the top 3 of senior classes all time at MU and can make a strong case for them being at the top, which is subjective obviously.  It's great for Buzz because he can build off that momentum, show recruits that he's a great coach (even if we don't know yet), etc, etc. 

Everything is setup PERFECTLY for Buzz right now and so far, he's taking advantage of it.  Which is great news for all of us.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Were they hurt due to the extreme methods Crean used?

So what you're really saying is that players get hurt in practice regardless of who the coach is or what they are doing.  We've had more injuries this year then in any other year that I can remember, despite the "extreme methods" used.  Can you identify a year where we've had more major injuries to players?

[tower912]

Please, for the love of all thats holy, let it go, people.   Focus on what we have, and what is coming up.   TC is gone for what he thought was a better job.   He is getting his abe handed to him this year.   LET HIM GO!!!!   ITS OVER!!!   This is a special team.   If Buzz follows up this incoming class with another good one, in 2 years we are going to be a title contender.    Focus on that.

[IAmMarquette]

Please, for the love of all thats holy, let it go, people.   Focus on what we have, and what is coming up.   TC is gone for what he thought was a better job.   He is getting his abe handed to him this year.   LET HIM GO!!!!   ITS OVER!!!   This is a special team.   If Buzz follows up this incoming class with another good one, in 2 years we are going to be a title contender.    Focus on that.

Thank you. THANK YOU. Great Odin's Raven! Does every thread on here have to pit Crean vs. Buzz? Some of you guys make it really difficult for the rest of us to enjoy this great forum.

[The Man in Gold]

At this point all you can say for sure is there would have been more set plays, we would hear about deflections ad nauseum, Pepsi would have had a spokesman for there new look Diet Pepsi, and no one would be talking about Wesley Matthews pro-potential.

Both coaches would have won games.  Crean probably would have beat Bruce Pearl but may have tanked at NC State.  Let's just enjoy the ride and worry about this in April.

[nola03]

It's a shame someone attempts to ruin the good mood about this team by bringing up a former coach.

[Tugg Speedman]

So to those that questioned Buzz's hiring, the first 17 games mean nothing?  The Golden Eagle mascot could have coached this team to 15 and 2 and recruited Junior, Maymon, EK, etc.

For those that say we have to wait until his first class graduates, why stop their.  Why not wait a generation to make your decision.  In fact, have we waited long enough to pass judgment of Al McGuire?

You're just giving yourself enough time to find a flaw to criticize.  That is why you could never be an AD, you cannot make a decision, only criticize.  The big chair is not for you.

Let's give the AD and administration its due, after 8 million posts bashing them over the Buzz hiring, the guy is meeting expectations and recruiting well.  Just admit you were wrong and Father Wild knows more about hiring head coaches than you do. 

The first step to reforming yourself is admitting your failures.

[Fred Garvin]

I give a lot of credit to Buzz's asst. coaches.I think there doing a great job!
Keep it up and go MU!

[4everwarriors]

Where should I begin? Lovin' every minute of it.



Celebrate FFC----Freedom From Crean

on April 1

[muarmy81]

The record would likely be identical....our 4-0 start in the Big East is against 4 teams that all have losing records in the Big East (Nova 1-2, WVU 1-2, Rutgers 0-3, UC 0-2).  Hard to fathom we wouldn't have the same record in conference considering who we've played thus far.  If you disagree, fine but I'd like to know who we wouldn't have beaten in those 4 games considering three of them were at home and MU had a phenomenal record at home under Crean.

With Crean we won some games we shouldn't have in the BE and lost some games we shouldn't have lost but right now Buzz is 4-0 in the Big East with the same lineup as last year minus our major post contributor from last year. (Ooze)  I know you've never bashed buzz but you got to admit that this is a very great start especially from someone that many people were very disappointed in when he was named the head coach.  Is he going to go undefeated? No.  Is he going to make the NCAA tourney next year?  Hope so but why can't the Buzz detractors and Crean supporters give Buzz some credit.  Whether these are Buzz's players or not or if next year is going to be tougher, the bottom line is that Buzz is 4-0 with this group and nobody else has even started 2-0 with this group.

Edit:  And on the flip side of my own argument what if we were 0-4?  How bad would those Buzz detractors be bashing the man now?  Again, you got to give him some credit, whether you agred with the "process" or not. 

[MarquetteDano]

So to those that questioned Buzz's hiring, the first 17 games mean nothing?  The Golden Eagle mascot could have coached this team to 15 and 2 and recruited Junior, Maymon, EK, etc.

For those that say we have to wait until his first class graduates, why stop their.  Why not wait a generation to make your decision.  In fact, have we waited long enough to pass judgment of Al McGuire?

You're just giving yourself enough time to find a flaw to criticize.  That is why you could never be an AD, you cannot make a decision, only criticize.  The big chair is not for you.

Let's give the AD and administration its due, after 8 million posts bashing them over the Buzz hiring, the guy is meeting expectations and recruiting well.  Just admit you were wrong and Father Wild knows more about hiring head coaches than you do. 

The first step to reforming yourself is admitting your failures.

I understand you are battling with others who don't like the hire, but I have never bashed the hire.  I like Buzz, but I am not going to call this a success until he has graduated a class.  I think to do so is premature.  What if all these recruits transfer, or can't make the grade?

We are ALL Marquette fans.  Let's stop cheering  based on our egos and wanting to be right, and start cheering for Marquette, which includes the players, Buzz, etc..

[ChicosBailBonds]

So to those that questioned Buzz's hiring, the first 17 games mean nothing?  The Golden Eagle mascot could have coached this team to 15 and 2 and recruited Junior, Maymon, EK, etc.

For those that say we have to wait until his first class graduates, why stop their.  Why not wait a generation to make your decision.  In fact, have we waited long enough to pass judgment of Al McGuire?

You're just giving yourself enough time to find a flaw to criticize.  That is why you could never be an AD, you cannot make a decision, only criticize.  The big chair is not for you.

Let's give the AD and administration its due, after 8 million posts bashing them over the Buzz hiring, the guy is meeting expectations and recruiting well.  Just admit you were wrong and Father Wild knows more about hiring head coaches than you do. 

The first step to reforming yourself is admitting your failures.

First off, EK signed with Crean so not sure why you brought that up.

But yes, you do have to wait.  I hope like hell Buzz is the guy.  So far, he hasn't done anything to suggest he isn't the guy, but the collective love fest some are getting is also way too early.  Some of you are like little girls after the first kiss.  You have to wait and the reasons are obvious.

Let me give you a few examples of coaches that took over and had great talent left for them and excelled, but a few years later they were gone.  That's why you have to wait.

Bruiser Flint at UMASS.  Took Coach Cal's players, did well a few years but then was let go.  With Cal's players, he went 19-14, 21-11 (both NCAAs), but by his third year (mostly his players and his coaching) they were 14-16, 4th year 17-16, 5th year 15-15.    That's why you have to wait.

Matt Doherty.  Bill Guthridge.  Steve Lavin.  Etc, etc, etc.  And the lists go on and on and on.   No one here knows, absolutely no one.  Everyone hopes Buzz is the guy, but the landscape is littered with guys that have been in this type of situation and did well one or two years only to have the bloom come off the rose.

Personally, I think Buzz is going to make it and I sure as hell want him to.  But we won't know for quite some time for sure.

And Hayward, you're out of your mind if you think Crean's teams would have lost the games you mentioned.  You are not looking at reality.

[ChicosBailBonds]

With Crean we won some games we shouldn't have in the BE and lost some games we shouldn't have lost but right now Buzz is 4-0 in the Big East with the same lineup as last year minus our major post contributor from last year. (Ooze)  I know you've never bashed buzz but you got to admit that this is a very great start especially from someone that many people were very disappointed in when he was named the head coach.  Is he going to go undefeated? No.  Is he going to make the NCAA tourney next year?  Hope so but why can't the Buzz detractors and Crean supporters give Buzz some credit.  Whether these are Buzz's players or not or if next year is going to be tougher, the bottom line is that Buzz is 4-0 with this group and nobody else has even started 2-0 with this group.

Edit:  And on the flip side of my own argument what if we were 0-4?  How bad would those Buzz detractors be bashing the man now?  Again, you got to give him some credit, whether you agred with the "process" or not. 

We're off to a great start and the start we should be off to.  I thought we would be 3-1 right now (with 34 seconds in that Rutgers game the other day, I was afraid it might happen) but we're 4-0.  Everyone knew the beginning of the schedule was a lot easier then the end.  We're winning games we're supposed to be winning.  We've played 4 Big East teams, all 4 have a losing record, three of the four were at home and the one road game was against a team that has lost 8 straight conference games at home.  So as good as the 4-0 start is, let's not go overboard quite yet.  There are perspectives that need to be put into play regarding who we have played as well.

If this team started out 0-4 with this lineup and who we have playing, arguably the best senior class in our history, then of course it would be brought to the forefront.  This team should be doing this well and IS doing this well.

[Blackhat]

You guys are still talking about this....jeebus.   yes we have to wait to get an answer on Buzz.   But you can count Erik Williams 100% as a Buzz get.   Erik was going wherever Buzz was coaching same as Nick Williams going wherever Bernie Seltzer was coaching.

[patso]

I think the players might have tightened up in second halves under Crean leading to 1-2 more losses. This year we don't tense up and just pull away as the game goes on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the players might have tightened up in second halves under Crean leading to 1-2 more losses. This year we don't tense up and just pull away as the game goes on.

I think that's a legit answer.


My guess is that when we do lose a few games, which we will, it will be because Crean didn't leave us with enough talent and as long as we continue to win it will be because of Buzz.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

You guys are still talking about this....jeebus.   yes we have to wait to get an answer on Buzz.   But you can count Erik Williams 100% as a Buzz get.   Erik was going wherever Buzz was coaching same as Nick Williams going wherever Bernie Seltzer was coaching.

Yup...and Buzz was at MU because some guy named Tom Crean hired him.  When the announced of the recruiting class came out, I believe Tom Crean was the head coach.  That's how it works. 

Let's put it another way, if Tom Crean was still the head coach and Buzz Williams left this year to go become the head coach at Arkansas Pine Bluff or Western Kentucky, do you think EK wouldn't be at MU?  That's the answer to your question.  Of course he would be.

Buzz did the recruiting work, that's why Crean signed him...that's why all head coaches sign good recruiters.  But the kid signed with MU with Crean as the head coach and if Crean were still the head coach, he would be going to MU.

[Blackhat]

Erik Williams would have transferred the second Buzz left and no Crean wouldn't do a thing about it unless he wants to be shut out of Houston forever.   But Crean never had connections in Texas to begin with.   Crean gets no credit for Erik Williams because I know how his recruitment went down.   If Crean was the reason we have a player I would give him credit. 

[Big Papi]

The record would likely be identical....our 4-0 start in the Big East is against 4 teams that all have losing records in the Big East (Nova 1-2, WVU 1-2, Rutgers 0-3, UC 0-2). 

I won't argue you that you think we start out 4-0 but your comment about all 4 teams have losing records is beyond bunk.  We lose to West Virginia or Nova and they have winning records.  Both teams are top 25 teams and on par with MU.  Try to be at least a bit fair when it comes to Buzz.  I hate it when suppossed MU fans try to always slant everything towards the negative because they hate the coach for some screwed up reason.  The last 7,going on 8 years its been Crean (enough already) and now others are doing it to Buzz.

[wadesworld]

The Class of '09 is Buzz's first recruiting class.  Erik Williams is part of that class.  He is not a Tom Crean recruit, he is a Buzz Williams recruit, no matter what way you look at it (who recruited him, who the head coach is when he comes in, etc.).

Also, yes WV and Nova are under .500...currently.  They both have 2 losses, both to 2 top 25 teams.  At the end of the year they will be above .500, which is nothing to laugh about when it comes to the Big East.  They're also both in the top 25 (although when the new polls come out WV probably won't be).

Who knows what our record would be with Crean still coaching.  Honestly I think we would've had a better showing against Dayton, still lost to Tennessee, probably would have lost to NC State, and probably would have lost to either WV or Nova.  No way to tell though.

[The Lens]

If TC was still here:

2002, SJS & Chicos would still be cheering for MU
4Ever, Mr Hayward & DKCL would still be cheering against MU

[Big Papi]

If TC was still here:

2002, SJS & Chicos would still be cheering for MU
4Ever, Mr Hayward & DKCL would still be cheering against MU

Don't know about 2002 and SJS but the rest is right on target.  Interesting to see you included yourself.   

[The Lens]

Yeah it was 9 long years of cheering against us...my fellow season ticket holders were starting to get annoyed.

[mviale]

I am sure chicos has some justification for why we beat WVU so soundly and not able to do it in the past.  I am sure this WVU is vastly inferior to past wvu teams or something like that.

I continue to be amazed at the high level of bball coming from our 5-7 players. Matthews was not recognized in the crean system of 1001 plays.

[Tugg Speedman]

The question was; is Buzz a good hire?  Not will he end his life as a successful coach.

Buzz has coached a team with high expectations to meet those expectations.  That is not easy.  Buzz has managed to sign up (and keep in the case of EK) one of the better recruiting classes.

Yes, in the games and seasons to come he will show flaws and make mistakes.  Everyone does.  But that does not take away from the fact that Father Wild did a better job of hiring Buzz than most of the "experts" here.


Had we listened to the cognoscenti on this board, we would be stuck with some retread like Pete Gillen and not Buzz.  That would have been a mistake.

[pbiflyer]

But, but, but why, oh why have we not had this year the largest crowd ever to see a game in Wisconsin?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Erik Williams would have transferred the second Buzz left and no Crean wouldn't do a thing about it unless he wants to be shut out of Houston forever.   But Crean never had connections in Texas to begin with.   Crean gets no credit for Erik Williams because I know how his recruitment went down.   If Crean was the reason we have a player I would give him credit. 

LOL

Good one.   So you're saying that Williams would not have gone to a Big East school but would have followed Buzz to Arkansas Pine Bluff?  Again, good one.  I needed the laugh this morning.

If you read EK's own comments, he wanted to play at MU, felt the Jesuit tradition, etc, were key.  No way he would have gone anywhere else because Buzz wouldn't have been given a head coaching gig somewhere else so fast.

What would have been interesting as hell is if Buzz had gone with Crean to IU, would Williams be going to IU?  That's the interesting question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I won't argue you that you think we start out 4-0 but your comment about all 4 teams have losing records is beyond bunk.  We lose to West Virginia or Nova and they have winning records.  Both teams are top 25 teams and on par with MU.  Try to be at least a bit fair when it comes to Buzz.  I hate it when suppossed MU fans try to always slant everything towards the negative because they hate the coach for some screwed up reason.  The last 7,going on 8 years its been Crean (enough already) and now others are doing it to Buzz.

Sigh.  Do you think I hate Buzz....shame.  I don't.  I think the guy is doing terrific so far, I'm just not polising his dome some like some folks are.  For those of us that aren't, that means we hate the guy?  Are you serious?  Wow.  I'm just putting out the facts that we haven't beaten anyone with a winning record yet.  And no, Nova will not be ranked after this week and neither will West Virginia, nevertheless they are two quality wins.  I'm not saying they aren't.  I've seen too many great starts by a coach to falter 2 years later....just look at some of the MU coaches.  Mike Deane.  What about the praises of....get ready....Bob Dukiet after the first year.  You don't remember them?  I sure do.  He beat Wisconsin, took the team to the NIT, landed a couple of east coast players and folks thought he would do well. 

All I'm saying is don't let your hatred for Crean mean whomever steps in is now the new girlfriend. It's like some of you are on the relationship rebound or something.

I am being fair to Buzz, I'm using facts.  We are 4-0 and our wins are against 4 teams that have losing records in the Big East.  How is that not factual or accurate or biased in any way, shape or form? 

When you analyze an NFL team's record, you look at who they played and what those records are.  Same for any other sport.  Why would we treat this any differently?

I'm not faulting Buzz at all.....man some people here are so damn sensitive it kills me.  Are the teams we played all under .500 in conference?  Yes or No?  Is this a statement based on fact?  Yes or no?

Today went a long way for me in believing we can be a 11-7 type Big East team....as I said before the season started they could go 9-9 or 13-5 depending on how things shook out. I didn't see how they could finish worse than 9-9 and right now they look like they will do much better.

The Providence game will go a long way for me.  Our first true conference road game against a decent team.

So far so good, I think Buzz is doing a great job.....but I'm also going to weigh in the reality that we haven't beaten a team yet with a winning record in conference play.  As WVU and Nova continue to go, I suspect they will end up above .500 which will only help us.

[Blackhat]

LOL

Good one.   So you're saying that Williams would not have gone to a Big East school but would have followed Buzz to Arkansas Pine Bluff?  Again, good one.  I needed the laugh this morning.

If you read EK's own comments, he wanted to play at MU, felt the Jesuit tradition, etc, were key.  No way he would have gone anywhere else because Buzz wouldn't have been given a head coaching gig somewhere else so fast.

What would have been interesting as hell is if Buzz had gone with Crean to IU, would Williams be going to IU?  That's the interesting question.

  1st I never adressed your lame scenario because it was dumb.   Buzz would never leave for another po dunk job after he left UNO.   And if Buzz did leave for another assistant job at a high profile place there was a high likelihood(check that, 100% likelihood) Erik would follow Buzz ala Joe Fulce.   Your ignorance is blatant Chicos, you have no idea how deep a relationship Buzz builds with his players.   So please in your crusade to defend Crean don't talk all knowing about stuff you know nothing about.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If TC was still here:

2002, SJS & Chicos would still be cheering for MU
4Ever, Mr Hayward & DKCL would still be cheering against MU

How sad, but it confirms what I've always thought....you guys actually cheered against Marquette, your alma mater.  Really sad, really really sad on your part.

I cheer for MU wildly, come sleet, snow, negative temperatures, I'm cheering and watching and excited whomever the coach is.  It's Marquette.



For you to admit what I think many of us knew, that you were cheering AGAINST MU because you didn't like the coach....says a lot quite frankly.  It's pretty sad.  No other way to say it.  Really sad.  No wonder why Deane, O'Neill, Crean, Majerus said the same exact thing about our fans and how they were to deal with.  Sad.  No wonder each one wanted to get out of Marquette so damn fast.  Fans cheering against them because they didn't like them personally.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am sure chicos has some justification for why we beat WVU so soundly and not able to do it in the past.  I am sure this WVU is vastly inferior to past wvu teams or something like that.

I continue to be amazed at the high level of bball coming from our 5-7 players. Matthews was not recognized in the crean system of 1001 plays.

Huh?  Not able to beat WVU soundly in the past?  You mean like the 18 point victory we put on them two years ago.  81-63 when they were ranked 13th in the nation.  Is that what you mean mviale?  Are you hitting the philly cheese steaks again too hard?   

MU 81, #13 WVU 63  2006-07.....you're right, we sure haven't been able to beat them soundly in the past  and that team was certainly vastly more overrated then this one (they were ranked 13th and finished in the Sweet 16 where they lost to Xavier 79 to 75 in OT). 

Care to try again   

[downtown85]

I think Erik Williams signed is LOI when Buzz was coach.  Any time a coach leaves before the LOI is signed, all bets are off.  If he were really a Crean recruit he wouldn't have re-verballed to Buzz and then signed his LOI to play at MU.  

One thing I notice about Buzz's offense this year is that his half court offense can actually break down a zone.  The season started off a bit shakey but the players actually can run plays to score against the zone.   I am now more relaxed and not as anxious when our opponents try to zone us.

I also like how Buzz uses the 1-3-1, 3/4 court trap to occasionally disrupt the other team's offensive flow.  I am not sure Crean would have added that wrinkle.  

Regarding recruiting, I think Buzz is much stronger at recruiting forwards and it remains to be seen if he can recruit a bevy of top notch guards.  College is a guards game and the team needs to have balance.  

[Blackhat]

I think Erik Williams signed is LOI when Buzz was coach.  Any time a coach leaves before the LOI is signed, all bets are off.  If he were really a Crean recruit he wouldn't have re-verballed to Buzz and then signed his LOI to play at MU.  

Exactly right.    Ultimately this is a needless debate because the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[ChicosBailBonds]

  1st I never adressed your lame scenario because it was dumb.   Buzz would never leave for another po dunk job after he left UNO.   And if Buzz did leave for another assistant job at a high profile place there was a high likelihood(check that, 100% likelihood) Erik would follow Buzz ala Joe Fulce.   Your ignorance is blatant Chicos, you have no idea how deep a relationship Buzz builds with his players.   So please in your crusade to defend Crean don't talk all knowing about stuff you know nothing about.

I see.  OK.  Well, if that's what Erik would do then so be it.  I'll ask again, do you think if Crean hadn't pushed MU hard to hire Buzz and Buzz would have gone to IU, I guess you're saying he (Erik would have gone to IU)....correct?

I also agree that Buzz wouldn't take another po-dunk job.  Then again, do you think anyone other than MU would have hired Buzz as a head coach after New Orleans last year?  Answer that seriously...with your brain.  I doubt it.  His OWN words said he likely would have had to wait a number of years for another head coaching gig because of his departure at New Orleans.

So in actuality, my scenario wasn't dumb at all.

I think Erik was coming to MU if Crean was still here which is the coach he verballed to.  I think if Buzz wasn't here, Erik likely would still come to MU unless Buzz went to IU in which case likely would go to IU...if Buzz went to another head coaching gig it would not be at a MU type level (BCS), I doubt that a top 60 kid would go to the type of school that Buzz would be head coaching at.  We just disagree.

Nevertheless, thrilled right now to have Buzz and Erik at MU.  Hopefully Buzz is the coach that some think he is....that will be awesome if that's the case.   For me, I need more data to make that decision.  Sorry that's problematic for some of you.

[Mayor McCheese]

There is only one thing that I can say for sure would be different if Crean were coach.

Wes Matthews would not be having a year he is, a free-flowing offense gives him a shot to make a play.

[Blackhat]

I see.  OK.  Well, if that's what Erik would do then so be it.  I'll ask again, do you think if Crean hadn't pushed MU hard to hire Buzz and Buzz would have gone to IU, I guess you're saying he (Erik would have gone to IU)....correct?

I also agree that Buzz wouldn't take another po-dunk job.  Then again, do you think anyone other than MU would have hired Buzz as a head coach after New Orleans last year?  Answer that seriously...with your brain.  I doubt it.  His OWN words said he likely would have had to wait a number of years for another head coaching gig because of his departure at New Orleans.

So in actuality, my scenario wasn't dumb at all.

I think Erik was coming to MU if Crean was still here which is the coach he verballed to.  I think if Buzz wasn't here, Erik likely would still come to MU unless Buzz went to IU in which case likely would go to IU...if Buzz went to another head coaching gig it would not be at a MU type level (BCS), I doubt that a top 60 kid would go to the type of school that Buzz would be head coaching at.  We just disagree.

Nevertheless, thrilled right now to have Buzz and Erik at MU.  Hopefully Buzz is the coach that some think he is....that will be awesome if that's the case.   For me, I need more data to make that decision.  Sorry that's problematic for some of you.

Lets put it this way Chicos, if Tom Crean was at Marquette right now and Buzz Williams wasn't, Erik Williams would not be coming to Marquette.   If Buzz Williams was at Marquette and Tom Crean wasn't Erik Williams was still coming to Marquette(as is the case).   Maybe if Buzz left after Erik's junior year Erik would tough it out alone in Wisconsin but these are all hypotheticals.   The relationship Buzz has with Erik is very strong either way as I stated before the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  So if you want to credit Crean with Erik so be it.   

[Marquette84]

I am sure chicos has some justification for why we beat WVU so soundly and not able to do it in the past.  I am sure this WVU is vastly inferior to past wvu teams or something like that.

It's not true that this is the first time we beat WVU so soundly.  We won by 18 two years ago-- 81-63.

[Big Papi]

Sigh.  Do you think I hate Buzz....shame.  I don't.  I think the guy is doing terrific so far, I'm just not polising his dome some like some folks are.  For those of us that aren't, that means we hate the guy?  Are you serious?  Wow.  I'm just putting out the facts that we haven't beaten anyone with a winning record yet.  And no, Nova will not be ranked after this week and neither will West Virginia, nevertheless they are two quality wins.  I'm not saying they aren't.  I've seen too many great starts by a coach to falter 2 years later....just look at some of the MU coaches.  Mike Deane.  What about the praises of....get ready....Bob Dukiet after the first year.  You don't remember them?  I sure do.  He beat Wisconsin, took the team to the NIT, landed a couple of east coast players and folks thought he would do well. 

All I'm saying is don't let your hatred for Crean mean whomever steps in is now the new girlfriend. It's like some of you are on the relationship rebound or something.

I am being fair to Buzz, I'm using facts.  We are 4-0 and our wins are against 4 teams that have losing records in the Big East.  How is that not factual or accurate or biased in any way, shape or form? 

The facts are you didn't like the hiring process.  
The facts are you were a huge supporter of TC.  
The facts are that MU played and beat two teams ranked in the top 25.  
The facts are if listen to experts West Virginia and Villanova will in all likelihood make the NCAA tourny.  
The facts are everyone is saying the Big East is one of the toughest conferences around this year.  
The facts are most every expert is saying 9 teams from the Big East will make the tourny.  
The facts are you are minimizing the accomplishments of what this team has done over the last 4 games.
The facts are you were always the glass is half full type of MU supporter when TC was here and now you take digs on the team whenever you can.

The fact is I was a huge TC supporter but a bigger MU supporter.
The fact is the jury is still out on Buzz but he has really impressed me with his basketball knowledge.

Oh yea and as far as list above goes, I am being more than fair to you as I'm just using facts.  

[bma725]

One thing would for sure be different.  Wes Matthews sure as he** wouldn't be averaging over 19 a game, and wouldn't have had multiple games over 25 points.  Crean never figured out how to use him in three years, and it's an absolute shame that he didn't. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Lets put it this way Chicos, if Tom Crean was at Marquette right now and Buzz Williams wasn't, Erik Williams would not be coming to Marquette.   If Buzz Williams was at Marquette and Tom Crean wasn't Erik Williams was still coming to Marquette(as is the case).   Maybe if Buzz left after Erik's junior year Erik would tough it out alone in Wisconsin but these are all hypotheticals.   The relationship Buzz has with Erik is very strong either way as I stated before the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  So if you want to credit Crean with Erik so be it.   

Perhaps, I tend to take the word of the kid when he says he was coming to Marquette no matter what.  Why should I not believe the kid?

[mviale]

Chicos - you can believe the kid. However, the kid aint coming to milwaukee without a Texas connection.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The facts are you didn't like the hiring process.   Absolutely correct...I've also said from day one that I hope that Buzz succeeds and believe that he can succeed
The facts are you were a huge supporter of TC.  Of his accomplishments, yes...2nd best run in MU history...kids graduating, Final Four, NCAAs routine, attendance highest in MU history...did you not like the 2nd best run in MU history?  I did...perhaps because I went to school during the Dukiet era and worked at MU during the Deane era
The facts are that MU played and beat two teams ranked in the top 25.  Absolutely correct...also equally correct is that neither will be ranked this Monday
The facts are if listen to experts West Virginia and Villanova will in all likelihood make the NCAA tourny.  WVU yes, Nova...been a bubble pick all year long
The facts are everyone is saying the Big East is one of the toughest conferences around this year.  I've been saying the same thing all year long
The facts are most every expert is saying 9 teams from the Big East will make the tourny.  Yup, I think even 10 is possible.  Remember, I was the one last year that said 8 from the start and got into many an argument here with folks who kept saying 6 or 7....look it up.  I'm high on this conference and always have been.
The facts are you are minimizing the accomplishments of what this team has done over the last 4 games.  How am I minimizing them?  We've won 3 home games, we played one of the worst teams in the conference on the road.  Shouldn't we win those 4 games with the makeup of this team?
The facts are you were always the glass is half full type of MU supporter when TC was here and now you take digs on the team whenever you can.   What "digs" am I taking at this team?  Here's where it's kind of funny...you say I love TC so much, then why wouldn't I love this team since they are essentially 99% of TC's guys playing on it?  Ahh....oh yeah.      I love this team and I'll say it for the 5000th time, I think Buzz is doing a great job this year.  I just don't lick his balls like some of here do.  Some are in rebound mode...they hated Crean so much that whomever is pacing the sidelines they're in full blown Viagra mode over.  I need more time, more data to decide for myself if he's the guy.  Too many people thought Bruiser Flint was the guy, Steve Lavin was the guy, Mike Deane was the guy, etc, etc.  I'm sorry if I need more time.  Some of you are love at first site type of guys, I'm not.  I need a LONG run before I'm going there.  But for the 5001st time, Buzz is doing a great job this year.  He's not screwing up a perfect opportunity with arguably the best senior class in MU history. Now, is that a dig or is that a fact?  I guess it depends how often one licks balls to determine that.     I think it's a fact, name me another senior class that is better than this one.

The fact is I was a huge TC supporter but a bigger MU supporter.  I am as well
The fact is the jury is still out on Buzz but he has really impressed me with his basketball knowledge.  Completely agree

Oh yea and as far as list above goes, I am being more than fair to you as I'm just using facts.      Fair enough...peace

See above

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos - you can believe the kid. However, the kid aint coming to milwaukee without a Texas connection.

Yes, I believe the kid....no need to call him a liar.  I do believe the words out of his mouth.

[Blackhat]

Perhaps, I tend to take the word of the kid when he says he was coming to Marquette no matter what.  Why should I not believe the kid?

This is my last post b/c this debate is lame but if you want to play this game Chicos that's fine.  You want evidence and printed words. I happen to believe Erik Williams head basketball coach John Harmatuk:
“When Erik found out Buzz got the job, it didn’t take long for him to make a decision,” Harmatuk said. “It’s all about relationships because you are going to spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week with the guy. For Erik, Marquette and Buzz Williams was a comfort decision."

[mviale]

Its obvious to me stone cold - EW came here for Tom Crean.

[MR.HAYWARD]

well my name came up for so i fugured i woulod wade in.  I have never so much as for a second even considered rooting against MU.  Always cheer for Mu with every fiber of my being....I just hated Crean as a person and thought we could do better...IMO right now we have a better coach, a better ercruiter, and a 100x higher character guy...so yes I am very happy

[The Lens]

How sad, but it confirms what I've always thought....you guys actually cheered against Marquette, your alma mater.  Really sad, really really sad on your part.

I cheer for MU wildly, come sleet, snow, negative temperatures, I'm cheering and watching and excited whomever the coach is.  It's Marquette.



For you to admit what I think many of us knew, that you were cheering AGAINST MU because you didn't like the coach....says a lot quite frankly.  It's pretty sad.  No other way to say it.  Really sad.  No wonder why Deane, O'Neill, Crean, Majerus said the same exact thing about our fans and how they were to deal with.  Sad.  No wonder each one wanted to get out of Marquette so damn fast.  Fans cheering against them because they didn't like them personally.

It wasn't sad Chicos, it was fun, sort of a challenge to night in and night out bring it for our opponent.  It did get expensive though; every game I had to buy a new team's jersey and then we switched from CUSA to the Big East, and I know no longer need my Tulane jersey.  Also the Blue & Gold Classic was especially tough, never knew the Saturday opponent until 6pm on Friday, had to drop a ton on FedEx to get "My New Favorite Team's" jersey (GO WINTHROP!!!!) in time for the Saturday game.  Do you know how much Saturday FedEx delivery is?  One year money was tight and I opted for body paint...I was the guy with UT-San Antonio on his chest.

Oh yeah, I also spent the time traveling to all the big Lamar and Wagner games. 

[wadesworld]

It wasn't sad Chicos, it was fun, sort of a challenge to night in and night out bring it for our opponent.  It did get expensive though; every game I had to buy a new team's jersey and then we switched from CUSA to the Big East, and I know no longer need my Tulane jersey.  Also the Blue & Gold Classic was especially tough, never knew the Saturday opponent until 6pm on Friday, had to drop a ton on FedEx to get "My New Favorite Team's" jersey (GO WINTHROP!!!!) in time for the Saturday game.  Do you know how much Saturday FedEx delivery is?  One year money was tight and I opted for body paint...I was the guy with UT-San Antonio on his chest.

Oh yeah, I also spent the time traveling to all the big Lamar and Wagner games.

^^^HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THIS IS THE FUNNIEST F'ING POST I'VE EVER READ ON HERE!

[79Warrior]

Since the season is just past the half-way point ......

15 -2 overall, 4 - 0 in the BE.
One of the better recruiting classes in the last 20 years.

If Crean stayed, how could he have improved on things?  Would it have even been this good?

Can we proclaim the Buzz hiring a sucess?  If not, what more do we need to see before we can proclaim it sucessful?

Proclaim it a success when he wins with his own recruits.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is my last post b/c this debate is lame but if you want to play this game Chicos that's fine.  You want evidence and printed words. I happen to believe Erik Williams head basketball coach John Harmatuk:
“When Erik found out Buzz got the job, it didn’t take long for him to make a decision,” Harmatuk said. “It’s all about relationships because you are going to spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week with the guy. For Erik, Marquette and Buzz Williams was a comfort decision."

Yup, of course you didn't include this part of the quote Stone Cold....I'll include it for you in case you missed it.  I'm really not sure why you chose to skip those quotes, but I'm happy to offer them for you.   


“Despite everything that has gone on, I remain strongly committed to Marquette University,” Erik Williams said. “Coach Crean is a great person and coach, but the more I thought about it, I committed to Marquette because of everything that it stands for and has to offer. In the south, everything is football. At Marquette, basketball is the main focus."

“Erik’s parents really value a Jesuit education,” Harmatuk said. “Erik went to a Jesuit school (Strake Jesuit) as a freshman. His parents are very impressed with Marquette as a university, first and foremost.”

[Blackhat]

Ah, that does nothing to counter what Harmatuk says.   So unless Harmatuk is lying(which he isn't) then anybody but a stubborn jack___ like you're being would realize the kid came to Marquette because of Buzz. 

[Marquette84]

Ah, that does nothing to counter what Harmatuk says.   So unless Harmatuk is lying(which he isn't) then anybody but a stubborn jack___ like you're being would realize the kid came to Marquette because of Buzz. 

Erik said:  "I committed to Marquette because of everything that it stands for and has to offer."

I'll take Erik's word over his HS coach when it comes to explaining what Erik is thinking.

 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Oh come on DK, I knew you were kidding....I think.   

[patso]

I would like to clarify what I meant. I think the free wheeling style is better for this team and Crean did not always let his players use their natural talent as he tended to impose a framework on the game.This being said, you can lose games by being too improvisational and perhaps we will lose a few under Buzz with an ill advised three pointer or offensive foul . Crean won conservatively which is not indeed a negative per se. I myself prefer Buzz' style of basketball win or lose.

[mugrack]

Screw Crean .

[mviale]

Can Matthews sue Crean for hurting his NBA chances over the last 3 seasons?

[cheebs09]

I would like to clarify what I meant. I think the free wheeling style is better for this team and Crean did not always let his players use their natural talent as he tended to impose a framework on the game.This being said, you can lose games by being too improvisational and perhaps we will lose a few under Buzz with an ill advised three pointer or offensive foul . Crean won conservatively which is not indeed a negative per se. I myself prefer Buzz' style of basketball win or lose.

I really agree, I feel that with a team that is real strong on fundamentals and smart, a pretty tight system like UW is the best way to go. Since they wont make mistakes, they can methodically run an offense and rely on the other teams mistakes. However, a team like ours with a lot of athletes, I feel an offense that allows them to make plays works better. They use their strengths to make things happen that can't necessarily be scripted, especially since we have seen that we have a guy that can keep it all together and make good decisions in James.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ah, that does nothing to counter what Harmatuk says.   So unless Harmatuk is lying(which he isn't) then anybody but a stubborn jack___ like you're being would realize the kid came to Marquette because of Buzz. 

Sigh....when did I EVER say the kid didn't come to MU because of Buzz?  When?  Of course Buzz was the common theme, the Texas connection, etc.  But let's get reality into the equation, when he verballed to play for Tom Crean and Marquette he was putting his basketball career into Tom Crean's hands, not Buzz Williams.  Tom Crean determines who plays, where he plays, how often he plays.  He's the head coach.  He didn't commit to MU thinking Buzz would call the shots back when Crean was the HC.

What I said is that he would not leave, most likely, if Buzz wasn't here.  A DISTINCT difference.  If Buzz went to some other school, I doubt Williams follows him, especially if Buzz went to some low level school to be a head coach.

His own words said the more he thought about it, he wanted to go to Marquette.

Again, where did I EVER say he didn't come because of the Buzz connection?  I didn't.  But we all know he verballed to MU when Crean was here at MU and if Buzz wasn't at MU, he'd still be coming unless Buzz went to IU....and even then I doubt EW would have gone to IU, that would have been interesting.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I would like to clarify what I meant. I think the free wheeling style is better for this team and Crean did not always let his players use their natural talent as he tended to impose a framework on the game.This being said, you can lose games by being too improvisational and perhaps we will lose a few under Buzz with an ill advised three pointer or offensive foul . Crean won conservatively which is not indeed a negative per se. I myself prefer Buzz' style of basketball win or lose.

I agree as well....with a team as experienced as this one, letting them loose is a good move because they're still grounded in what got them there.  It's the best of both worlds.

However, I'm betting with a very inexperienced team next year, just letting them freelance is a recipe for disaster.  But we shall see. 

The makeup of this team gives Buzz options galore which is great for Buzz and great for the team (and the fans). 

[mviale]

Might be as bad as the post wade team - ugghh  losing to central michigan

[Blackhat]

Count me as not surprised the two Crean d-suckers want to believe a Houston, Tx kid in Erik Williams came to Marquette because we're beautiful and the only Jesuit non football school in the nation.   


Since it obviously wasn't Crean it must be the school!

[wadesworld]

Sigh....when did I EVER say the kid didn't come to MU because of Buzz?  When?  Of course Buzz was the common theme, the Texas connection, etc.  But let's get reality into the equation, when he verballed to play for Tom Crean and Marquette he was putting his basketball career into Tom Crean's hands, not Buzz Williams.  Tom Crean determines who plays, where he plays, how often he plays.  He's the head coach.  He didn't commit to MU thinking Buzz would call the shots back when Crean was the HC.

What I said is that he would not leave, most likely, if Buzz wasn't here.  A DISTINCT difference.  If Buzz went to some other school, I doubt Williams follows him, especially if Buzz went to some low level school to be a head coach.

His own words said the more he thought about it, he wanted to go to Marquette.

Again, where did I EVER say he didn't come because of the Buzz connection?  I didn't.  But we all know he verballed to MU when Crean was here at MU and if Buzz wasn't at MU, he'd still be coming unless Buzz went to IU....and even then I doubt EW would have gone to IU, that would have been interesting.

I would argue that who the coach is when a player signs his National Letter of Intent is the coach that player commits to.  It is far less common for a player to back out of a verbal commitment over backing out of his Letter of Intent.  The school has to allow for that in most cases, whereas backing out from a verbal a school does not.  Crean was not the coach when Williams signed his Letter of Intent.  Buzz was.  Buzz was also the one who recruited Williams.  Williams is a Buzz recruit.  He is part of Buzz's 2009 recruiting class, not Tom Creans 2009 recruiting class.  It is one of the top recruiting classes in the nation.

If you need the facts to back that up, since you seem to love those, here is Marquette's 2009 commits, of which Tom Crean has nothing to do because he is no longer at Marquette, so they must be the current head coach's recruits, since the head coach ALWAYS gets the credit, right :
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=8&yr=2009
Says Erik Williams is a Marquette 2009 recruit, so he must be a Buzz recruit, not a Crean recruit.

Here is Tom Crean's 2009 recruiting class:
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&c=8&cfg=bb&toinid=406&sspid=-1&yr=2009
Nowhere do I see Erik Williams, and since this is Tom Crean's class, and the same class as Erik Williams, he must not be a Tom Crean recruit.

Weird.

[Marquette84]

I would argue that who the coach is when a player signs his National Letter of Intent is the coach that player commits to.  It is far less common for a player to back out of a verbal commitment over backing out of his Letter of Intent.  The school has to allow for that in most cases, whereas backing out from a verbal a school does not.  Crean was not the coach when Williams signed his Letter of Intent.  Buzz was.  Buzz was also the one who recruited Williams.  Williams is a Buzz recruit.  He is part of Buzz's 2009 recruiting class, not Tom Creans 2009 recruiting class.  It is one of the top recruiting classes in the nation.

If you need the facts to back that up, since you seem to love those, here is Marquette's 2009 commits, of which Tom Crean has nothing to do because he is no longer at Marquette, so they must be the current head coach's recruits, since the head coach ALWAYS gets the credit, right :
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&cfg=bb&c=8&yr=2009
Says Erik Williams is a Marquette 2009 recruit, so he must be a Buzz recruit, not a Crean recruit.

Here is Tom Crean's 2009 recruiting class:
http://marquette.scout.com/a.z?s=415&p=9&c=8&cfg=bb&toinid=406&sspid=-1&yr=2009
Nowhere do I see Erik Williams, and since this is Tom Crean's class, and the same class as Erik Williams, he must not be a Tom Crean recruit.

Weird.

I think you miss the point.  The title of the thread is "If Crean Stayed . . ."     

Stone Cold made the statement that Erik Williams had no affinity at all toward Marquette whatsoever.

Chicos raised what seemed like a reasonable scenario where Erik would still be at Marquette even if Buzz left:  Specifically, had Buzz taken a low-major head coaching job somewhere.  That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

But no, apparently, we've reached the point where one has to be a "Crean d-sucker" to believe that a kid who says that he values Jesuit education, that he wants a basketball only school, and that he likes everything about Marquette would abandon that choice simply because the guy who initially recruited him to Marquette got a low-level head coaching job somewhere else. 

[bilsu]

I am already convinced that Buzz is a better coach than Crean. In todays game we were down 8 in the first half and after a timeout Buzz comes out with a zone press that turned the game around. We have seen him make adjustments in other games that also changed the game around. He completely changed our defensive philosphy to playing defense with our feet instead of our hands. We now ususally make more free throws than the other team shoots. He also completely revamped our offense. I like this motion offense much better than the detailed plays that Crean would run. All you have to do is watch Indiana play to see how it use to be here. Crean's Indiana team has already lost two home games after having 20 point leads. Buzz is flat out a better coach. Having said that we will take some serious lumps next year in the Big East, because of our lack of experience.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Count me as not surprised the two Crean d-suckers want to believe a Houston, Tx kid in Erik Williams came to Marquette because we're beautiful and the only Jesuit non football school in the nation.   


Since it obviously wasn't Crean it must be the school!

Very mature.....I guess a Los Angeles kid (myself) went to MU because of Tom Crean....22 years before he was hired.   I'm sure it had nothing to do with MU being in the Big East and a chance to play right away.  Nah.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am already convinced that Buzz is a better coach than Crean. In todays game we were down 8 in the first half and after a timeout Buzz comes out with a zone press that turned the game around. We have seen him make adjustments in other games that also changed the game around. He completely changed our defensive philosphy to playing defense with our feet instead of our hands. We now ususally make more free throws than the other team shoots. He also completely revamped our offense. I like this motion offense much better than the detailed plays that Crean would run. All you have to do is watch Indiana play to see how it use to be here. Crean's Indiana team has already lost two home games after having 20 point leads. Buzz is flat out a better coach. Having said that we will take some serious lumps next year in the Big East, because of our lack of experience.

As Kevin O'Neill told me and Mike Deane as well, the coach with the better players is usually the better coach.      Kevin used to say, "give me Dean Smith's players and I'll be in the top 5 also".


Buzz has much better players right now then Crean does at IU.    I am enthusiastic that both schools will be at the top of their game in five years (IU resurrecting itself and MU continuing).