If Crean Stayed, How Would Things Be Different?

[patso]

I think the players might have tightened up in second halves under Crean leading to 1-2 more losses. This year we don't tense up and just pull away as the game goes on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think the players might have tightened up in second halves under Crean leading to 1-2 more losses. This year we don't tense up and just pull away as the game goes on.

I think that's a legit answer.


My guess is that when we do lose a few games, which we will, it will be because Crean didn't leave us with enough talent and as long as we continue to win it will be because of Buzz.   

[ChicosBailBonds]

You guys are still talking about this....jeebus.   yes we have to wait to get an answer on Buzz.   But you can count Erik Williams 100% as a Buzz get.   Erik was going wherever Buzz was coaching same as Nick Williams going wherever Bernie Seltzer was coaching.

Yup...and Buzz was at MU because some guy named Tom Crean hired him.  When the announced of the recruiting class came out, I believe Tom Crean was the head coach.  That's how it works. 

Let's put it another way, if Tom Crean was still the head coach and Buzz Williams left this year to go become the head coach at Arkansas Pine Bluff or Western Kentucky, do you think EK wouldn't be at MU?  That's the answer to your question.  Of course he would be.

Buzz did the recruiting work, that's why Crean signed him...that's why all head coaches sign good recruiters.  But the kid signed with MU with Crean as the head coach and if Crean were still the head coach, he would be going to MU.

[Blackhat]

Erik Williams would have transferred the second Buzz left and no Crean wouldn't do a thing about it unless he wants to be shut out of Houston forever.   But Crean never had connections in Texas to begin with.   Crean gets no credit for Erik Williams because I know how his recruitment went down.   If Crean was the reason we have a player I would give him credit. 

[Big Papi]

The record would likely be identical....our 4-0 start in the Big East is against 4 teams that all have losing records in the Big East (Nova 1-2, WVU 1-2, Rutgers 0-3, UC 0-2). 

I won't argue you that you think we start out 4-0 but your comment about all 4 teams have losing records is beyond bunk.  We lose to West Virginia or Nova and they have winning records.  Both teams are top 25 teams and on par with MU.  Try to be at least a bit fair when it comes to Buzz.  I hate it when suppossed MU fans try to always slant everything towards the negative because they hate the coach for some screwed up reason.  The last 7,going on 8 years its been Crean (enough already) and now others are doing it to Buzz.

[wadesworld]

The Class of '09 is Buzz's first recruiting class.  Erik Williams is part of that class.  He is not a Tom Crean recruit, he is a Buzz Williams recruit, no matter what way you look at it (who recruited him, who the head coach is when he comes in, etc.).

Also, yes WV and Nova are under .500...currently.  They both have 2 losses, both to 2 top 25 teams.  At the end of the year they will be above .500, which is nothing to laugh about when it comes to the Big East.  They're also both in the top 25 (although when the new polls come out WV probably won't be).

Who knows what our record would be with Crean still coaching.  Honestly I think we would've had a better showing against Dayton, still lost to Tennessee, probably would have lost to NC State, and probably would have lost to either WV or Nova.  No way to tell though.

[The Lens]

If TC was still here:

2002, SJS & Chicos would still be cheering for MU
4Ever, Mr Hayward & DKCL would still be cheering against MU

[Big Papi]

If TC was still here:

2002, SJS & Chicos would still be cheering for MU
4Ever, Mr Hayward & DKCL would still be cheering against MU

Don't know about 2002 and SJS but the rest is right on target.  Interesting to see you included yourself.   

[The Lens]

Yeah it was 9 long years of cheering against us...my fellow season ticket holders were starting to get annoyed.

[mviale]

I am sure chicos has some justification for why we beat WVU so soundly and not able to do it in the past.  I am sure this WVU is vastly inferior to past wvu teams or something like that.

I continue to be amazed at the high level of bball coming from our 5-7 players. Matthews was not recognized in the crean system of 1001 plays.

[Tugg Speedman]

The question was; is Buzz a good hire?  Not will he end his life as a successful coach.

Buzz has coached a team with high expectations to meet those expectations.  That is not easy.  Buzz has managed to sign up (and keep in the case of EK) one of the better recruiting classes.

Yes, in the games and seasons to come he will show flaws and make mistakes.  Everyone does.  But that does not take away from the fact that Father Wild did a better job of hiring Buzz than most of the "experts" here.


Had we listened to the cognoscenti on this board, we would be stuck with some retread like Pete Gillen and not Buzz.  That would have been a mistake.

[pbiflyer]

But, but, but why, oh why have we not had this year the largest crowd ever to see a game in Wisconsin?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Erik Williams would have transferred the second Buzz left and no Crean wouldn't do a thing about it unless he wants to be shut out of Houston forever.   But Crean never had connections in Texas to begin with.   Crean gets no credit for Erik Williams because I know how his recruitment went down.   If Crean was the reason we have a player I would give him credit. 

LOL

Good one.   So you're saying that Williams would not have gone to a Big East school but would have followed Buzz to Arkansas Pine Bluff?  Again, good one.  I needed the laugh this morning.

If you read EK's own comments, he wanted to play at MU, felt the Jesuit tradition, etc, were key.  No way he would have gone anywhere else because Buzz wouldn't have been given a head coaching gig somewhere else so fast.

What would have been interesting as hell is if Buzz had gone with Crean to IU, would Williams be going to IU?  That's the interesting question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I won't argue you that you think we start out 4-0 but your comment about all 4 teams have losing records is beyond bunk.  We lose to West Virginia or Nova and they have winning records.  Both teams are top 25 teams and on par with MU.  Try to be at least a bit fair when it comes to Buzz.  I hate it when suppossed MU fans try to always slant everything towards the negative because they hate the coach for some screwed up reason.  The last 7,going on 8 years its been Crean (enough already) and now others are doing it to Buzz.

Sigh.  Do you think I hate Buzz....shame.  I don't.  I think the guy is doing terrific so far, I'm just not polising his dome some like some folks are.  For those of us that aren't, that means we hate the guy?  Are you serious?  Wow.  I'm just putting out the facts that we haven't beaten anyone with a winning record yet.  And no, Nova will not be ranked after this week and neither will West Virginia, nevertheless they are two quality wins.  I'm not saying they aren't.  I've seen too many great starts by a coach to falter 2 years later....just look at some of the MU coaches.  Mike Deane.  What about the praises of....get ready....Bob Dukiet after the first year.  You don't remember them?  I sure do.  He beat Wisconsin, took the team to the NIT, landed a couple of east coast players and folks thought he would do well. 

All I'm saying is don't let your hatred for Crean mean whomever steps in is now the new girlfriend. It's like some of you are on the relationship rebound or something.

I am being fair to Buzz, I'm using facts.  We are 4-0 and our wins are against 4 teams that have losing records in the Big East.  How is that not factual or accurate or biased in any way, shape or form? 

When you analyze an NFL team's record, you look at who they played and what those records are.  Same for any other sport.  Why would we treat this any differently?

I'm not faulting Buzz at all.....man some people here are so damn sensitive it kills me.  Are the teams we played all under .500 in conference?  Yes or No?  Is this a statement based on fact?  Yes or no?

Today went a long way for me in believing we can be a 11-7 type Big East team....as I said before the season started they could go 9-9 or 13-5 depending on how things shook out. I didn't see how they could finish worse than 9-9 and right now they look like they will do much better.

The Providence game will go a long way for me.  Our first true conference road game against a decent team.

So far so good, I think Buzz is doing a great job.....but I'm also going to weigh in the reality that we haven't beaten a team yet with a winning record in conference play.  As WVU and Nova continue to go, I suspect they will end up above .500 which will only help us.

[Blackhat]

LOL

Good one.   So you're saying that Williams would not have gone to a Big East school but would have followed Buzz to Arkansas Pine Bluff?  Again, good one.  I needed the laugh this morning.

If you read EK's own comments, he wanted to play at MU, felt the Jesuit tradition, etc, were key.  No way he would have gone anywhere else because Buzz wouldn't have been given a head coaching gig somewhere else so fast.

What would have been interesting as hell is if Buzz had gone with Crean to IU, would Williams be going to IU?  That's the interesting question.

 1st I never adressed your lame scenario because it was dumb.   Buzz would never leave for another po dunk job after he left UNO.   And if Buzz did leave for another assistant job at a high profile place there was a high likelihood(check that, 100% likelihood) Erik would follow Buzz ala Joe Fulce.   Your ignorance is blatant Chicos, you have no idea how deep a relationship Buzz builds with his players.   So please in your crusade to defend Crean don't talk all knowing about stuff you know nothing about.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If TC was still here:

2002, SJS & Chicos would still be cheering for MU
4Ever, Mr Hayward & DKCL would still be cheering against MU

How sad, but it confirms what I've always thought....you guys actually cheered against Marquette, your alma mater.  Really sad, really really sad on your part.

I cheer for MU wildly, come sleet, snow, negative temperatures, I'm cheering and watching and excited whomever the coach is.  It's Marquette.



For you to admit what I think many of us knew, that you were cheering AGAINST MU because you didn't like the coach....says a lot quite frankly.  It's pretty sad.  No other way to say it.  Really sad.  No wonder why Deane, O'Neill, Crean, Majerus said the same exact thing about our fans and how they were to deal with.  Sad.  No wonder each one wanted to get out of Marquette so damn fast.  Fans cheering against them because they didn't like them personally.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am sure chicos has some justification for why we beat WVU so soundly and not able to do it in the past.  I am sure this WVU is vastly inferior to past wvu teams or something like that.

I continue to be amazed at the high level of bball coming from our 5-7 players. Matthews was not recognized in the crean system of 1001 plays.

Huh?  Not able to beat WVU soundly in the past?  You mean like the 18 point victory we put on them two years ago.  81-63 when they were ranked 13th in the nation.  Is that what you mean mviale?  Are you hitting the philly cheese steaks again too hard?   

MU 81, #13 WVU 63  2006-07.....you're right, we sure haven't been able to beat them soundly in the past  and that team was certainly vastly more overrated then this one (they were ranked 13th and finished in the Sweet 16 where they lost to Xavier 79 to 75 in OT). 

Care to try again   

[downtown85]

I think Erik Williams signed is LOI when Buzz was coach.  Any time a coach leaves before the LOI is signed, all bets are off.  If he were really a Crean recruit he wouldn't have re-verballed to Buzz and then signed his LOI to play at MU.  

One thing I notice about Buzz's offense this year is that his half court offense can actually break down a zone.  The season started off a bit shakey but the players actually can run plays to score against the zone.   I am now more relaxed and not as anxious when our opponents try to zone us.

I also like how Buzz uses the 1-3-1, 3/4 court trap to occasionally disrupt the other team's offensive flow.  I am not sure Crean would have added that wrinkle.  

Regarding recruiting, I think Buzz is much stronger at recruiting forwards and it remains to be seen if he can recruit a bevy of top notch guards.  College is a guards game and the team needs to have balance.  

[Blackhat]

I think Erik Williams signed is LOI when Buzz was coach.  Any time a coach leaves before the LOI is signed, all bets are off.  If he were really a Crean recruit he wouldn't have re-verballed to Buzz and then signed his LOI to play at MU.  

Exactly right.    Ultimately this is a needless debate because the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[ChicosBailBonds]

 1st I never adressed your lame scenario because it was dumb.   Buzz would never leave for another po dunk job after he left UNO.   And if Buzz did leave for another assistant job at a high profile place there was a high likelihood(check that, 100% likelihood) Erik would follow Buzz ala Joe Fulce.   Your ignorance is blatant Chicos, you have no idea how deep a relationship Buzz builds with his players.   So please in your crusade to defend Crean don't talk all knowing about stuff you know nothing about.

I see.  OK.  Well, if that's what Erik would do then so be it.  I'll ask again, do you think if Crean hadn't pushed MU hard to hire Buzz and Buzz would have gone to IU, I guess you're saying he (Erik would have gone to IU)....correct?

I also agree that Buzz wouldn't take another po-dunk job.  Then again, do you think anyone other than MU would have hired Buzz as a head coach after New Orleans last year?  Answer that seriously...with your brain.  I doubt it.  His OWN words said he likely would have had to wait a number of years for another head coaching gig because of his departure at New Orleans.

So in actuality, my scenario wasn't dumb at all.

I think Erik was coming to MU if Crean was still here which is the coach he verballed to.  I think if Buzz wasn't here, Erik likely would still come to MU unless Buzz went to IU in which case likely would go to IU...if Buzz went to another head coaching gig it would not be at a MU type level (BCS), I doubt that a top 60 kid would go to the type of school that Buzz would be head coaching at.  We just disagree.

Nevertheless, thrilled right now to have Buzz and Erik at MU.  Hopefully Buzz is the coach that some think he is....that will be awesome if that's the case.   For me, I need more data to make that decision.  Sorry that's problematic for some of you.

[Mayor McCheese]

There is only one thing that I can say for sure would be different if Crean were coach.

Wes Matthews would not be having a year he is, a free-flowing offense gives him a shot to make a play.

[Blackhat]

I see.  OK.  Well, if that's what Erik would do then so be it.  I'll ask again, do you think if Crean hadn't pushed MU hard to hire Buzz and Buzz would have gone to IU, I guess you're saying he (Erik would have gone to IU)....correct?

I also agree that Buzz wouldn't take another po-dunk job.  Then again, do you think anyone other than MU would have hired Buzz as a head coach after New Orleans last year?  Answer that seriously...with your brain.  I doubt it.  His OWN words said he likely would have had to wait a number of years for another head coaching gig because of his departure at New Orleans.

So in actuality, my scenario wasn't dumb at all.

I think Erik was coming to MU if Crean was still here which is the coach he verballed to.  I think if Buzz wasn't here, Erik likely would still come to MU unless Buzz went to IU in which case likely would go to IU...if Buzz went to another head coaching gig it would not be at a MU type level (BCS), I doubt that a top 60 kid would go to the type of school that Buzz would be head coaching at.  We just disagree.

Nevertheless, thrilled right now to have Buzz and Erik at MU.  Hopefully Buzz is the coach that some think he is....that will be awesome if that's the case.   For me, I need more data to make that decision.  Sorry that's problematic for some of you.

Lets put it this way Chicos, if Tom Crean was at Marquette right now and Buzz Williams wasn't, Erik Williams would not be coming to Marquette.   If Buzz Williams was at Marquette and Tom Crean wasn't Erik Williams was still coming to Marquette(as is the case).   Maybe if Buzz left after Erik's junior year Erik would tough it out alone in Wisconsin but these are all hypotheticals.   The relationship Buzz has with Erik is very strong either way as I stated before the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  So if you want to credit Crean with Erik so be it.   

[Marquette84]

I am sure chicos has some justification for why we beat WVU so soundly and not able to do it in the past.  I am sure this WVU is vastly inferior to past wvu teams or something like that.

It's not true that this is the first time we beat WVU so soundly.  We won by 18 two years ago-- 81-63.

[Big Papi]

Sigh.  Do you think I hate Buzz....shame.  I don't.  I think the guy is doing terrific so far, I'm just not polising his dome some like some folks are.  For those of us that aren't, that means we hate the guy?  Are you serious?  Wow.  I'm just putting out the facts that we haven't beaten anyone with a winning record yet.  And no, Nova will not be ranked after this week and neither will West Virginia, nevertheless they are two quality wins.  I'm not saying they aren't.  I've seen too many great starts by a coach to falter 2 years later....just look at some of the MU coaches.  Mike Deane.  What about the praises of....get ready....Bob Dukiet after the first year.  You don't remember them?  I sure do.  He beat Wisconsin, took the team to the NIT, landed a couple of east coast players and folks thought he would do well. 

All I'm saying is don't let your hatred for Crean mean whomever steps in is now the new girlfriend. It's like some of you are on the relationship rebound or something.

I am being fair to Buzz, I'm using facts.  We are 4-0 and our wins are against 4 teams that have losing records in the Big East.  How is that not factual or accurate or biased in any way, shape or form? 

The facts are you didn't like the hiring process.  
The facts are you were a huge supporter of TC.  
The facts are that MU played and beat two teams ranked in the top 25.  
The facts are if listen to experts West Virginia and Villanova will in all likelihood make the NCAA tourny.  
The facts are everyone is saying the Big East is one of the toughest conferences around this year.  
The facts are most every expert is saying 9 teams from the Big East will make the tourny.  
The facts are you are minimizing the accomplishments of what this team has done over the last 4 games.
The facts are you were always the glass is half full type of MU supporter when TC was here and now you take digs on the team whenever you can.

The fact is I was a huge TC supporter but a bigger MU supporter.
The fact is the jury is still out on Buzz but he has really impressed me with his basketball knowledge.

Oh yea and as far as list above goes, I am being more than fair to you as I'm just using facts.  

[bma725]

One thing would for sure be different.  Wes Matthews sure as he** wouldn't be averaging over 19 a game, and wouldn't have had multiple games over 25 points.  Crean never figured out how to use him in three years, and it's an absolute shame that he didn't.