Best case/worst case for 16-17

[goldeneagle91114]

Mom

Well thought out post. That said, not everyone (me) needs instant gratification regarding the program. I fully understand the work involved in the process and know it takes time. My comments/feelings are based off my opinion on a wide range of items. The one that jumps out to me the most is the lack of excitement by the students and the support of the program by alumni. Usually when there is smoke, there is fire and in this case the smoke is another year of declining attendance. I have seen ups and downs in the program for a long time and know what a rebuild looks like. Usually by year two EVERYONE is jacked up, attending games, talking up the program and excited for the future. Currently I see or hear none of that excitement, aside from several on here.

Again, I respect your post and comments but I just do not see it. Just because Sultan or TAMU or whoever say the guys will be better next year does mean that is going to happen. I could list a lot of players that were going to be better next year and were not over the past 30 years. There is not enough talent returning to make a run at anything next season.

" Usually by year two EVERYONE is jacked up, attending games, talking up the program and excited for the future." I think this may be true if we hadn't been to the NCAA tournament in something like 10 years and had a new coach. But only 4 years ago we were in the Elite 8. hard to get jacked up when when you go that to this in such a short period of time.

[KenoshaWarrior]

You're right they don't change magically overnight. They change with hard work and practice, the kind that you get in the 8 months of offseason. Teams rarely improve greatly during a season. However, this team did. You are just putting blinders on and saying we didn't. The team at the end of the season was twice the team that started the season. If we played Belmont again we would wipe the floor with them. The stats show it to. I'm too lazy to find the graphic but Henry Sugar showed a chart that showed that we have been trending up all season.

Every team improves.  It is how much you improve by

[MarquetteDano]

Adding something to best case:

- Wojo hires a key bench coach who knows strategy and how to make in-game adjustments

Worst case:

- Wojo makes no coaching changes and doesn't improve as a coach

[JakeBarnes]

Adding something to best case:

- Wojo hires a key bench coach who knows strategy and how to make in-game adjustments

Worst case:

- Wojo makes no coaching changes and doesn't improve as a coach

Best Case: Hologram Al hired for bench

Worst Case: Hologram Tupac hired for bench

[GGGG]

Mom

Well thought out post. That said, not everyone (me) needs instant gratification regarding the program. I fully understand the work involved in the process and know it takes time. My comments/feelings are based off my opinion on a wide range of items. The one that jumps out to me the most is the lack of excitement by the students and the support of the program by alumni. Usually when there is smoke, there is fire and in this case the smoke is another year of declining attendance. I have seen ups and downs in the program for a long time and know what a rebuild looks like. Usually by year two EVERYONE is jacked up, attending games, talking up the program and excited for the future. Currently I see or hear none of that excitement, aside from several on here.

Again, I respect your post and comments but I just do not see it. Just because Sultan or TAMU or whoever say the guys will be better next year does mean that is going to happen. I could list a lot of players that were going to be better next year and were not over the past 30 years. There is not enough talent returning to make a run at anything next season.

To be fair, I never said they were going to be better.  I said that I believe they will be better because players generally improve with experience.  Doesn't always happen.  Wojo might not be the guy I think he will become.  We will see.

[mu_hilltopper]

I think what has amplified the angst is .. we got hooked on the "MU is such a good program" meme as we made the NCAAs year after year, it almost seemed like a right. --   Well of course MU is going to be an NCAA team, we're a first class operation, top 15 attendance, top 15-20 coaches salary, top recruiting classes, NBA players, MU was in the national conversation for almost a decade straight.  That's our path, our road.  Sucks to be DePaul or SLU or UWM or (insert favorite team we're better than.)

It was OK to have an off year.  Now two and three and.. we're one 19 year old's decision away from being a bubble team next year.  Maybe. 

It is what it is.  No one should be surprised at the angst.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I think what has amplified the angst is .. we got hooked on the "MU is such a good program" meme as we made the NCAAs year after year, it almost seemed like a right. --   Well of course MU is going to be an NCAA team, we're a first class operation, top 15 attendance, top 15-20 coaches salary, top recruiting classes, NBA players, MU was in the national conversation for almost a decade straight.  That's our path, our road.  Sucks to be DePaul or SLU or UWM or (insert favorite team we're better than.)

It was OK to have an off year.  Now two and three and.. we're one 19 year old's decision away from being a bubble team next year.  Maybe. 

It is what it is.  No one should be surprised at the angst.

This is exactly how I feel.

[keefe]

This where I think the HE recruitment actually hurt Marquette. I feel victim to the overhype game and too high of expectations as much as anyone else. Given where the program was last year and where it is this year at the end of the season has been a significant improvement(both statistically and with the eye test), however it definitely hasn't matched where we thought it should be.

Time will tell whether where we thought we should be was right and Wojo missed or if Wojo got the max out and prepared us for the following year.

The comparison to Michigan, while I get it, I think does a disservice to what Marquette is facing and what they have in their toolbelt versus Michigan. Michigan is a top 10 all-time program that has had some struggles but never lost their vibe, people want to play at Michigan if they get competent. Marquette is a top 40 all time program that is one of a dozen programs like it that people what to play for but don't have to play for.

I think we as Marquette fans overvalue our basketball brand within the greater basketball community. For Marquette the coaching staff is always going to be more important than the Marquette brand.....the same can't be said for Michigan football or Kentucky basketball or Duke basketball, etc.

Navy

The situation in Ann Arbor had many similarities with Marquette - the President and Athletic Director were replaced and the coach of the marquee program was fired. The mood in Ann Arbor among alums was terrible - we had gone 10 years without beating Ohio and between Rich Rod and Hoke we had more losing seasons collectively than we had in the previous 60 years.

The right hire makes all the difference. Michigan has a losing season under Hoke, brings in Harbaugh and the next year we are ranked in the Top Ten. And Harbaugh did this with Hoke's players.

Michigan football was in the toilet - far more distressed than Marquette basketball - and the atmospherics in Ann Arbor were terrible. One year later we are seriously talking about running the table.

As I said, the two situations are not analogous but there are many similarities. Marquette, within college basketball, spends like Michigan does on football. There are few who invest as much treasure as Marquette and Michigan in those two sports. The right hire makes all the difference.

   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If our only comparison for this year was last year, we would all be pleased as punch at the progress. Yet people insist on holding this team up to 2013, or 2003, or 1977, and see only disappointment.  We've become a society of instant gratification, where anything absent overnight success is a failure.  We use this concept to speculate that a freshman player who has no known concern with his role on the team will transfer because he didn't get playing time.  Guess what?  Not all freshman play.  Heck, David Robinson's kid is currently redshirting at Duke! 

Some kids who don't have NBA prospects are just looking for a good college playing experience with a solid team. Or a free college education by way of their athletic ability. And some teams fall apart and need to be rebuilt from the ground up.  That takes time if you want to do it right.  Imagine a team three years from now, with Traci, Haani and Sacar as senior leaders, Brendan Bailey and continued quality recruiting by Wojo.  I'm looking forward to it.  And I, too, believe that Haani and Traci with another year of training and experience will eliminate many of the mistakes that could've lost games for us but for Henry's performance.

One thing about instant gratification is that it can work to Marquettes advantage if this rebuild goes well.  Nothing brings students and fans back to the arena like a winning team.

+1

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Mom

Well thought out post. That said, not everyone (me) needs instant gratification regarding the program. I fully understand the work involved in the process and know it takes time. My comments/feelings are based off my opinion on a wide range of items. The one that jumps out to me the most is the lack of excitement by the students and the support of the program by alumni. Usually when there is smoke, there is fire and in this case the smoke is another year of declining attendance.

Goose,

One thing you are missing here is that attendance at sporting events across the country is declining. Our attendance drop is in large part to our performance on the court, but its also part of a national trend. Not much that can be done about that. I think the new stadium and hopefully some winning will cure what ails us.

Navy

The situation in Ann Arbor had many similarities with Marquette - the President and Athletic Director were replaced and the coach of the marquee program was fired. The mood in Ann Arbor among alums was terrible - we had gone 10 years without beating Ohio and between Rich Rod and Hoke we had more losing seasons collectively than we had in the previous 60 years.

The right hire makes all the difference. Michigan has a losing season under Hoke, brings in Harbaugh and the next year we are ranked in the Top Ten. And Harbaugh did this with Hoke's players.

Michigan football was in the toilet - far more distressed than Marquette basketball - and the atmospherics in Ann Arbor were terrible. One year later we are seriously talking about running the table.

As I said, the two situations are not analogous but there are many similarities. Marquette, within college basketball, spends like Michigan does on football. There are few who invest as much treasure as Marquette and Michigan in those two sports. The right hire makes all the difference.

   

Keefe,

Michigan is a blue blood in football. It doesn't matter how far they fell under Rich Rod and Hoke. A football blue blood has support, tools, and resources that Marquette couldn't even dream of. There is also a very big difference between big state football fandom and small private basketball fandom. A majority of Marquette fans are alumni. A lot of us weren't born Warriors, we had to go to school and become them. Teams like Michigan, if you're born in the state, you are either a Michigan or State fan. You almost don't have a choice. That sort of fandom has a different hold on your life. In a way though, that proves your point about how vital it is that Marquette gets back to winning. Michigan fans will be there no matter what. Marquette fans are a little more flaky on the average.

[MU1980]

Well then you're just being silly.  College age kids change quite a lot from year to year.

It always amazes me when someone who seems to watch sports regularly does not understand the difference a year can make in a college athlete; physiologically, psychologically, emotionally, etc., with the transition from Freshman to Sophomore year often being the most dramatic.  Being a freshman in the Big East is a huge challenge and our young team learned a lot and had many typical frosh mistakes, but also did amazing things.  Think of how good Henry was, but he made quite a few of those rookie mistakes that he would make far less of next year if by some chance he stayed.  Even upperclassmen can make big improvements such as JJJ's outstanding jump from last year to this year.  Many people have written Sandy off, but he showed flashes of what he can do early in the season and lost confidence as the season wore on and I would be very surprised if he didn't make a similar jump next year to what JJJ did this year.  Some guys don't improve as much as others, but this was a very young team and it did make a difference and one year of experience for this young team will be huge, whether Henry stays or not. 

[mu03eng]

TAMU, I whole heartedly agree with your response to Keefe. I think at the end you touched on a critical point that may "unify" all the opinions in this thread.

We can debate player talent, coaching ability, player development all we want but that is all colored by how critical successful basketball is to MU. Without basketball success, MU loses money and future alumni...we have to create our fans, state schools don't. Rightly or wrongly a lot of what MU is, is tied up in the basketball program. We've had sustain success for 10 years, to fall to an also ran so quickly is jarring and without the certainty of success a lot of people get nervous.

I believe the program is climbing but I get where people don't see that definitely and combine that with the risk and you've got a lot of nervous, depressed folks

[Marcus92]

Michigan is a blue blood in football.

Average attendance: 109,000 (top 3 in the country). Estimated program revenue: $112 million (also top 3). Michigan football is in a league of its own. They're Kentucky, not Marquette. No comparison.

[naginiF]

TAMU, I whole heartedly agree with your response to Keefe. I think at the end you touched on a critical point that may "unify" all the opinions in this thread.

We can debate player talent, coaching ability, player development all we want but that is all colored by how critical successful basketball is to MU. Without basketball success, MU loses money and future alumni...we have to create our fans, state schools don't. Rightly or wrongly a lot of what MU is, is tied up in the basketball program. We've had sustain success for 10 years, to fall to an also ran so quickly is jarring and without the certainty of success a lot of people get nervous.

I believe the program is climbing but I get where people don't see that definitely and combine that with the risk and you've got a lot of nervous, depressed folks

I'm going to pick-a-nit on this on the two bolded fronts.  First off you both are completely right on the importance of #MUBB to the institution.  But.....nit #1 - I assume that nobody chooses to go to a private university based off of the athletic resume.  Does a consistent top 25 feed on the bottom of ESPN raise the visibility?  absolutely.  But does a stellar high school academic choose between Boston College and Marquette based on sports performance?  Nit #2 - the last 13 years have been an incredible run that very few programs can claim.  BUT...many alum stretch that "sustained success" back 39 years and forget we went from the absolute pinnacle back to constantly relevant ignoring the 26 years in between. 

The importance of "success" is associated specifically to alumni donations.  Basketball has always been part of our DNA but it's only during your tenure that you are indoctrinated (to both your points regarding state schools).  So, get the team back to the tourney on a regular basis and all (most?) of us are happy.

I personally like the approach of building for the long haul.  The President, BOD, AD, Coach, and team are all trying to bring success back to the program, but to do that it won't happen in 3 years.  Marquette has been here since 1907....it'll be here during the rebuild.

Edit - totally forgot:

Best case: hologram Tupac as coach.  Nobody relates to current recruits like him (no offense Hologram Al)
Worst case: Scoop decides to charge a subscription fee and I have to get to know my neighbors better to find things to argue with them about.

[Marqevans]

Navy

The situation in Ann Arbor had many similarities with Marquette - the President and Athletic Director were replaced and the coach of the marquee program was fired. The mood in Ann Arbor among alums was terrible - we had gone 10 years without beating Ohio and between Rich Rod and Hoke we had more losing seasons collectively than we had in the previous 60 years.

The right hire makes all the difference. Michigan has a losing season under Hoke, brings in Harbaugh and the next year we are ranked in the Top Ten. And Harbaugh did this with Hoke's players.

Michigan football was in the toilet - far more distressed than Marquette basketball - and the atmospherics in Ann Arbor were terrible. One year later we are seriously talking about running the table.

As I said, the two situations are not analogous but there are many similarities. Marquette, within college basketball, spends like Michigan does on football. There are few who invest as much treasure as Marquette and Michigan in those two sports. The right hire makes all the difference.

   

So we should hire Harbaugh's brother-in-law?

[wildbillsb]

Golden

I very well may have the dirt creeping up my ankles, my desire for one more jolly is as far from the truth as anything I have read on here. While you may think I am an old guy that lives in past MU glory and I would not argue that point hard with you. That said, this guy ankle deep in dirt has been a supporter, friend to and fan of the program for a long period of time and never wear rose colored glasses. Many on here, and I would include you, have different goals or wants from the program than I do and I respect that.

In addition, to this being a wasted season, it was beyond a waste IMO. To have all the pieces you
noted and an alltime great MU Freshmen and we are an NIT bubble team. I do agree on the BE being mediocre, yet I find that troubling to be associated with as a program. We were sub .500 team in a crappy conference.

Again, I will add again, I sure hope that the program only loses HE moving forward or next year is a disaster.

Depressingly correct in terms of my feelings.  (FIFY)

[Herman Cain]

Rebuilds are haphazard. I have three alma maters and one of them turned the reins over to an unproven man after the previous guy gutted the program in many ways. That process has had success in a number of areas though not on the court.

Another hired a leader with a proven track record and has turned the program around both on and off the field. This guy has recently notched a Top 5 recruiting class and the pundits are predicting a National Title in the near future.

But the real difference is within the fan base. At Marquette, we are shedding season ticket holders and the lack of enthusiasm is palpable. People on Scoop are debating why playing in the Vegas 16 is a good opportunity while lamenting the many holes in our line up.

In Ann Arbor, alums are buying tickets and pouring money into the football program. Fans are asking not if but when the coach wins the National Title.

Marquette may be on track to becoming relevant again and I genuinely hope that is true. But there is no certainty about end game in Milwaukee.

At Michigan there is no question that the program is not only relevant but vital.

I am not suggesting that these cases are directly correlated. But there is a huge difference in fan enthusiasm and I am saddened that Marquette cannot experience the rebound happening with Michigan football.



 

I think your comparing apples to oranges. The Michigan Football program is one of the all time greats in college sports, it is part of a large state university whose living alumni total in the hundreds of thousands. It is an iconic brand. Michigan has had downs in the past but they are all ways followed by new highs.

MU on the other hand had one glorious blue blood period under Al. We declined and then did a slow rebuild with KO/ Deane culminating in restoring us back to being a top 25 program in the Crean/ Buzz years.

There are enough good things going at MU that lead me to believe  we will be back to the Crean Buzz years soon  We just had 19.000 people show up for the Villanova game. If we put up a good product the fan support and alumni support will be there.

We have landed in an excellent conference that is perfectly configured for our success. We have a partnership with the Milwaukee Bucks and the future is bright. There is no downward spiral.

I hate to pick at old wounds, but we need to keep reminding ourselves that the Derrick Wilson era is over. Neither Buzz nor Wojo had a chance to do much with Derrick running the offense. Now we have a surplus of high quality guards. We just had a 20 win season and look to be well positioned for next year. The bad old days are over and we will pretty quickly return to the levels of  our recent success.

However, it will allways be harder and more stressful for MU to turn things around than it will at a  place like Michigan Football. 

[Marcus92]

In addition, to this being a wasted season, it was beyond a waste IMO. To have all the pieces you noted and an alltime great MU Freshmen and we are an NIT bubble team. I do agree on the BE being mediocre, yet I find that troubling to be associated with as a program. We were sub .500 team in a crappy conference.

I get that everyone's disappointed with missing the NCAA tournament. I know I am. I'm sure that the team and Wojo are, as well.

But to call it a waste — as if it the games weren't even worth playing or watching — goes against everything I believe about sports. These guys played their guts out, played as a team, improved over last year and improved over the course of the season. They helped make the program better, and gave us some pretty exciting moments along the way.

Sports isn't just about success. It's also about failure — and what you do then. Things don't always go your way. Tough. Deal with it. Pick yourself up, acknowledge your mistakes and shortcomings, and work to get better.

The idea that the Big East is a second-rate conference is beyond me. We have two teams in the Top 10. A top 5 conference RPI. Half the teams will likely make the tourney. The schools share a sense of focus and a long history of great basketball.

The current Big East might just be the best fit for Marquette in the program's history. Today I look back at the Big East of 5 years ago as a house of cards. It was impressive while it lasted, but it was destined to fail — ultimately no better than Conference USA. This is one of the best basketball conferences in the country, bar none. I wouldn't want Marquette anywhere else.

[Golden Avalanche]

I get that everyone's disappointed with missing the NCAA tournament. I know I am. I'm sure that the team and Wojo are, as well.

But to call it a waste — as if it the games weren't even worth playing or watching — goes against everything I believe about sports. These guys played their guts out, played as a team, improved over last year and improved over the course of the season. They helped make the program better, and gave us some pretty exciting moments along the way.

Sports isn't just about success. It's also about failure — and what you do then. Things don't always go your way. Tough. Deal with it. Pick yourself up, acknowledge your mistakes and shortcomings, and work to get better.

The idea that the Big East is a second-rate conference is beyond me. We have two teams in the Top 10. A top 5 conference RPI. Half the teams will likely make the tourney. The schools share a sense of focus and a long history of great basketball.

The current Big East might just be the best fit for Marquette in the program's history. Today I look back at the Big East of 5 years ago as a house of cards. It was impressive while it lasted, but it was destined to fail — ultimately no better than Conference USA. This is one of the best basketball conferences in the country, bar none. I wouldn't want Marquette anywhere else.

Bravo.