MU identity crisis

[nathanziarek]

Buzz has given no indication that he's leaving and every indication that he'll "stay as long as they'll have me."

This.

I think we're getting all worked up over rumors. If Buzz leaves, I'll be the first to jump in with Goose and ask what we're doing wrong. Until then, I think we're on an upward trajectory.

---

As far as "Elite" goes, that's branding, not performance. Branding takes time. I think MU has the ingredients (DWade, Brand Jordan, NCAA tournaments, conference, Al) ... we just need to continue to perform. There's also a luck component to it all. $$ alone will not get us to that upper echelon.

[StillAWarrior]

FYI--I am not complaining. I just happen to think that who will be our coach next season is more important to the school than if we win or not Friday. A win would be great, coach stability better in my humble opinion.

This is a complex thing.  If it wasn't, lots of schools would be Duke.

I agree that stability is key...but so is winning.  The proverbial "top programs" all have multiple national championships.  They also tend to have had coaches with long tenures.  So, we need both.  I agree that we need to retain our coach.  I'd be thrilled if Buzz was our coach for 25+ years because that would mean he is successful and the program is doing well.  But, I struggle with saying that it's more important to have Buzz as our coach next season than whether or not we win Friday (although I realize that this isn't exactly what you said...you didn't specify Buzz).

An honest question:  would it be better for the program long term if we made it to the FF (or better) this year but Buzz moved on to another job, or would it be better if we lost to UNC but kept Buzz?  I honestly don't know, and I don't think there's an easy answer.  The FF would enhance our reputation and hopefully help us get a good coach and recruits in the future (hopefully leading to stability and more winning), but the instability would be problematic.  On the other hand, if we lose, and then have a tough year next year, perhaps we would still lose Buzz and struggle more in the future.

My personal opinion is that Marquette is doing a very nice job and the program is up there with the second tier of "very good programs" behind the elite programs.  I think to get over the hump, they need a championship (or at least multiple final fours) and coaching stability.  At this point, I'm not sure which of those is the chicken, and which is the egg.

[6746jonesr]

Goose,

I have a couple of problems with your post.  The first is with your use of the word elite, and the second refers to identity.

So, MU is not an elite program.  You probably are correct, if that is based on the number of championship banners hanging from the rafters of the Bradley Center.  However, that characterizes 95% of the D1 basketball programs.  So, we are at the level below that, as evidenced by the number of times we have made it to the tourney, our attendance rankings, our winning percentage, etc.  While we should not be satisfied with the current state of affairs, I don't think that suggests that we are losers, or that our program is a failure.  Let's face it, MU was spoiled by the brief success of the 1970s, and there is probably a good reason for Al retiring at the top, realizing the times were changing and it was going to be difficult for MU to maintain its position relative to other programs.  The days of independents was over, as evidenced by Depaul, MU, and Notre Dame basketball. 
Regarding identity, that is a tougher issue to deal with.  Tom Crean brought the program back to respectability with the success the program had during his tenure.  He stayed at Marquette for about the same length of time as Al, and we came to expect a certain level of success from the program, and for the most part, Crean delivered.  Sadly, we never got back to the final four, but a little bad luck with injuries, and some gaps in recruiting, certainly prevented us from having more success in the tourney.
But I am much more concerned about the pessimistic tone of your post.  We have a bright, energetic young coach who has done a great job of recruiting.  He got us into the tourney each of his 3 years, and has us into the Sweet sixteen this year.  Not bad, if you ask me.  He also has much more talent on the team next year than in previous years, and he will begin moving away from the juco players and toward the 4 year kids, which over time should bring more stability and prevent bumpy rides like we had this year.  I think anyone who understands what little he had to work with when he took the job can understand why he chose so many jucos in the beginning.  If you watch the MU games on TV, and listen to national commentators speak about Marquette, it is clear that we have an identity--that of hard work and toughness.  What MU needs to move into the elite level, is continued success and deep runs into the tourney in consecutive years.  We can do that only with consistency in the coaching staff.    I am very optismistic about the future of men's b-ball at Marquette.  I expect them to continue to improve, and I hope they continue to do it the right way, by graduating their players, by emphasizing life lessons, by being good representatives of Marquette University, and continued success on the hard court. 

[Goose]

StillaWarrior--Agreed on winning and FF. I guess I assumed we all want the team to win and keep winning. My point is more towards multi-tasking. Lets win and lock a coach up long term. I would love nothing more than to have Buzz stay. But,  would to be doing this again next year.

6746--My issue on identity is not solely based on being elite or not. My point is lets pick what we want to be. If we want to be a very good school with great representatives of the school on the team the expectations and expenditures should reflect that. If we want to be elite and spend like big timers the expectations should match that.
I apologize if my tone sounds negative. You can be assured I love the program and school. I get frustrated because fans either bitch about not winning more or make excuses on why we don't win more. If a common objective was laid out then many complaints would disappear.

I am not looking for a team identity other than the goal is to be elite or be Xavier. That said, Xavier gets a lot out of less in my opinion. The play of the team the last two games proves to me they have great character and that starts with Buzz.

[El Duderino]

I agree with much of what's in here. As far as finances, I'd love to know where we spend. From what I've heard, one of the toughest things to do and biggest expenditures is scheduling, but when it comes to cupcakes, our scheduling is atrocious. So where does our money go? Is it all wrapped up in paying off The AL? Is it because of all the jet fuel used to scout recruits from California to Texas to Virginia?

As far as consistency, I feel we need it. And I hope that Buzz can provide it. But when you look at the top programs, you see Coach K at Duke, Boeheim at Syracuse, Calhoun at UConn, even Roy carrying on from his mentor Dean Smith at UNC. I'm really hoping we're still discussing Buzz as our head coach not just in 5 years, but in 10 and 20 years. That's the only way we'll ever reach elite status.

And in direct response to the trade-off, no, it's not worth it. I'd rather we make the tourney regularly, get the occasional Sweet 16, and maybe the blue moon Final Four run than be Kentucky. I can't help but think it will catch up with them at some point. I'd rather be clean and have kids representing us we can all be proud of than feel dirty because we've got the next Bruce Pearl at the helm.

I'm with you on that

One reason i like this year's team so much and last year's also isn't just that they did good things on the court, all the kids on both squads strike me as good kids/young men that represent the university wonderfully.

I don't want the program to bring in a bunch of shaky character guys and also pull every possible string so the kids don't have to put effort into going to class.

If a player enters the program and isn't good enough to leave early for the NBA draft, i want them to leave with a degree which can benefit them through the rest of their lives. I want a coach in place who makes every kid attend class or take a hike. Winning isn't the only thing important for me.

[Goose]

El---Great answer. Now that is identity of a program. Nothing wrong with being a really good place with really good kids. I have no problem with that. If that is the case NONE of us should ever complain about a player or coach on here. Truthfully my concern is we want it all...good kid, big budget, great school and great coach. IMO it does not work that way, or at least it is very difficult to work that way.

All season I saw negative player, recruit and coach posts on this site and that is why I posed the question. If we want to be cut throat to get to elite level we all can be critical. If we want 100% graduation and great kids the bar needs to be lowered. If we lower the bar we lower the budget. My feeling is we keep a coach a lot longer if they knew expectations. In addition, that guy probably would work for a ton less money.

[AlienWarrior]

It's the curse of political correctness

[Henry Sugar]

As far as "Elite" goes, that's branding, not performance. Branding takes time. I think MU has the ingredients (DWade, Brand Jordan, NCAA tournaments, conference, Al) ... we just need to continue to perform. There's also a luck component to it all. $$ alone will not get us to that upper echelon.

If only we had a unique and recognizable nickname that would instantly boost our brand and tie to our rich legacy in college basketball.*  

*No, I will never give up the idea that the Warriors name will return.  Like TallTitan's avatar, I'd even support the chicken mascot if it meant Warriors was the nickname.  Because a Warrior is an empowered and compassionate protector of others, and there is absolutely nothing that contradicts with Marquette's mission about being a Warrior.

On continuing to perform, I am reminded of the wonderful book, "Mastery" by George Leonard.  Essentially, a large premise of the book is that human development happens in long stretches of plateaus where growth does not appear to happen.  Performance increases in sudden spurts.  That growth is followed by a decline to a level above the previous plateau, at which point a new plateau begins.  One needs to embrace the plateau.

Perhaps, as a fanbase, we are just at a plateau and experiencing some of the growth.  Despite the heritage of first/second round losses, MU has made the NCAA tourney six straight times.  That hasn't happened since the 70's.  

Further, I truly do believe that next year is when MU begins to make "the leap".  I believe we will be ranked all year, contend for a top four spot in the BE, and have a minimum expectation of S16.  Maybe not elite... but getting closer.

Having said all that, it still rubs me the wrong way to say, "we're doing everything perfectly and all that is necessary is to hope Buzz sticks around".  

[Goose]

Henry---I agree that next year might be the year we have been waiting for on the court. I do not want this season to end but next year could be special.

The branding of MU is all part of the identity issue in my opinion. The school needs to brand the school. Maybe hiring a new marketing team..going back to Warriors (wishful thinking) or new logo. The turnout for sending team off yesterday was a joke and someone should be held responsible for that.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Over the past 60+ years...based on AP rankings....you could say MU is around the 17th best program and 3rd-4th among the privates.  Is that Elite?  Is that a program that has had trouble recruiting to Milwaukee? And no, it isn't all Al. Only two coaches in MU's history have had losing records EVER: Cord Lipe and Bob Dukiet. DePaul's last 3 of 4 have not been able to crack the break even mark, to put that into perspective.

Facilities and fan following are Top 10.  NBA heritage is tops for our size, including recently. Three national tournament banners (NCAA, NIT, Catholic), with quite a few 2nd's and semi finishes. Strong financial commitment (double meaning). In the best hoops conference while on national TV with increasing frequency.  MU is darn near Elite, perhaps in the Top 5%.  Is Elite the top 2%? Buzz's suitors are historically below MU and they are on the down cycle.  The MU psyche needs a shrink.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/rankings/report_most_in_the_top

[Goose]

Dr Blackheart---All of your points are valid and a positive for the program. Do you think fans in AZ or OR know that about MU? I would bet that many local ball fans in WI would be unaware of what we have done.

Our history, both past and recent, is borderline elite in my mind. My concern is what we have is more fragile than it should be. All schools risk downturns and I understand that. I would love to see MU viewed in a more elite manner by local media, national media and basketball fans in general.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Dr Blackheart---All of your points are valid and a positive for the program. Do you think fans in AZ or OR know that about MU? I would bet that many local ball fans in WI would be unaware of what we have done.

Our history, both past and recent, is borderline elite in my mind. My concern is what we have is more fragile than it should be. All schools risk downturns and I understand that. I would love to see MU viewed in a more elite manner by local media, national media and basketball fans in general.

Do you know AZ's or OR's (btw, is that Oregon or Oral Roberts?) histories? Do you think those fans know where DePaul is located or Villanova or Xavier or Butler?  Does the Average Joe know what cities your listed schools are located?  MU is a national program, yet they continue to outdraw the Bucks per game locally. Basketball fans know Marquette. ESPN and the BE only enhance this.  

My definition of Elite is Top 10 sustained. If you look at the list of schools on the AP list, they have had long tenures of HOF coaches who recruit consistently. MU needs to reward successful continuity and not go for the next "flavor of the month".  And, MU fans/alums/students, Admin and AD need to act elite and not the victim.  Very, very close.

[Goose]

Blackheart---Respect your opinion and hope you are correct. For the record, I want fans to know where MU is located and want young fans to want to attend MU and old fans to want their kids/grandkids to go to MU.

Maybe I just hold MU in way too high of regard. Outdrawing the Bucks does not do it for me. We have something really, really good and believe the word is not spread enough.

[NYWarrior]

this is dated but it speaks volumes about the heritage of hoops at MU - something that is better than most realize

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uji6kjkAGwQ

[ringout]

Number 1 key to success is stability at the HC position.  Marquette has done most everything* they can in that area.  If Buzz leaves it will be due to factors MU cannot control.

* Cott has to make sure that he has the strongest possible buyout language in the HC contract.  Crean's buyout was too weak, considering that the University just committed to him for 10 years, and he bails after 2.  I know guys look for flexibility, but commitment from MU = a stronger buyout.

As far as identity goes, I think MU has been pretty clear since the McGuire era that we want good kids, who will graduate, and we will not prostitute our values to win.  I think Buzz believes in that identity, believes that he can recruit players good enough to win at a high level, and will stay.

[brewcity77]

El---Great answer. Now that is identity of a program. Nothing wrong with being a really good place with really good kids. I have no problem with that. If that is the case NONE of us should ever complain about a player or coach on here. Truthfully my concern is we want it all...good kid, big budget, great school and great coach. IMO it does not work that way, or at least it is very difficult to work that way.

I think it can work that way if we give Buzz time. He's bringing in good kids. We have a big budget. I believe Marquette is a great school with a great mission. And given time, he can become not just a very good recruiter but a great coach. I think he's already there as a person and just needs time. Maybe it's pie in the sky, but if Buzz is what he appears to be, there's no reason that given 8-10 years of consistency, we can't have it all.