MU identity crisis

[Goose]

Pakuni---If I knew what Duke, Kentucky or UConn does differently I would tell you. I would think with the resources at our fingertips we would be able to figure out those guys gameplan. Maybe hire someone from their AD department.

[GGGG]

All Duke did was hire probably the greatest coach in the history of college basketball.  I actually think that they may be in for a pretty hard fall when Coach K retires, especially considering how poor his "coaching tree" has performed.

Kentucky (and to a lesser extent UConn) are large, public universities with massive followings that go well beyond their alumni base.  They just have many more resources at their disposal than MU has.

[NCAARules]

TJ---Exactly my point. But we spend money like an Elite program. That is my question...WHY DO WE OUTSPEND ALMOST EVERYONE AND GROUPED WITH XAVIER? We beat Xavier 907 straight times prior to 1995 and now they are our equals. They do not play in NBA joint, have $31 million practice facility, out spend most schools in coach and are small Jesuit school, with small urban campus, with marginal winter weather and next to rednecks. Yet they are equally or more respected on national level.
Am I the only one that finds that troubling?

Goose - I just don't see it. This whole thread reads like a Chicken Little diatribe.

1. We are not a peer of Xavier, and I don't think that is how we are seen nationally (except for those people who work at Jesuit schools). I think most schools are first categorized by the conference they play in. Then, by relative size of athletic program. Then, by success. So, our comps are Nova, GTown, and to a lesser extent (based off success since the new Big East formed) PC, SJU, Seton Hall, DePaul.

2. I have no problem with our identity. In what was seen as a relatively down year, we were .500 in the toughest conference in the nation. In our up-years we will be in the hunt for the top-3 in conference, which I expect will equal being a top 10 team nationally. We have moved from being a defense-first team to and offense-first team, but the hustle and work ethic continues to be lauded nationally.

[Henry Sugar]

I think Goose raises an interesting question.  In the 70's, Marquette was an elite program.  Clearly, Marquette fell off and has not yet returned to that level. 

To a certain extent, our history is also an anchor.  It is unreasonable to believe we return to elite right now.

There are many conditions in place that demonstrate the commitment to a successful program.  While the math is fuzzy when comparing how much programs spend on hoops, there is no doubt that the administration spends a lot.  Mostly, the infrastructure of an elite program is in place.   

And yet, like Goose asks, we are not elite despite our spending and infrastructure.  We wonder if we'll be able to prevent our coach from going to Oklahoma or Arkansas.  (Although, the buyout information makes me believe this is not an issue.)

I struggle with what else could be done to improve the program.  However, I don't think it's enough to say, "we're doing the absolute best we can".  I think Goose is asking a completely fair question, and I wish I had a simple answer in response.

[Goose]

Sultan--Why does every poster ignore the fact we out spend everyone yet under perform many of our peers?I ran a very small business and never would profess to being a Harvard MBA, but I do know if spend $60K on a car I do not want a Chevy Malibu in return.

I love MU and love program. But for some reasons it seems like a million excuses on here.

[Goose]

Henry--Thank you for explaining my point in a better manner. I get very emotional because I love the place and think we are really good but could be better. You stated my point better than I did...thank you.

[Blackhat]

Keeping your successful coaches and maintaining stability is a good start to getting to an elite status in basketball.  


What more you can do to get to the point where most coaches want to be at MU long term?? develop prestige through winning, global warming establishing Milwaukee and Lake Michigan a tropical destination, keep driving those SUVs, Marquette thanks you......MPS developing more qualified major talent would help, not much down the pipe since Landry.

[NersEllenson]

Goose - Ironically...I think you are one of the few with an identity crisis!!  Seriously...you have been all over the last 3 weeks with regard to your perceptions and opinions of MU basketball.

You fear Xavier - yet Xavier lost Sean Miller, Pete Gillen and many other coaches along its way to success.  Xavier gets more respect currently than MU because they advanced to 3-4 sweet 16's in the last 5 years.

UNC, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky will always be elite.  MU is probably a Top 15-25 program on the college basketball landscape.  We are solid.  However, because we don't have a football team..and are located in a state that produces limited high major basketball talent - those are 2 drawbacks that prevent us from being perceived as a Top 5-15 program.

Buzz can absolutely make MU elite again, through the sheer force of his will....let's hope he stays...it will always take a special coach such as Al, and Buzz to make MU a truly elite program.  Even Indiana with all its history has struggled after the legendary Bobby Knight left..

[El Duderino]

Sultan--Why does every poster ignore the fact we out spend everyone yet under perform many of our peers?I ran a very small business and never would profess to being a Harvard MBA, but I do know if spend $60K on a car I do not want a Chevy Malibu in return.

I love MU and love program. But for some reasons it seems like a million excuses on here.

It would be like asking why can't the Wisconsin football program be just like Texas, Ohio St., Florida, Alabama, USC, etc. when those programs not only have long traditions of success to draw in recruits along with the huge recruiting advantage of having a much more fertile home recruiting base to grab recruits from.

If it was easy to become a long time national power in college football or basketball, non-power programs would become a power program all the time. It doesn't work that way.

[GGGG]

Sultan--Why does every poster ignore the fact we out spend everyone yet under perform many of our peers?I ran a very small business and never would profess to being a Harvard MBA, but I do know if spend $60K on a car I do not want a Chevy Malibu in return.

We pay to keep talented coaches.  And in the past fifty years, we have lost three coaches who we wanted to keep.  Majerus (although that is arguable), O'Neill (when the program was at a different place), and Crean (to one of the traditionally best programs in the country...after nine years). 

And as far as "underperforming," how is that?  We are a regular NCAA tournament participant.  We have made a final four in the last decade.  We are near the top of average attendance per year.  We have had similar success in these regards to the likes of Georgetown and Villanova.  We have out-performed the likes of Notre Dame and St. John's.

Considering how crappy the program was 15-20 years ago, we are in a good place.

[Goose]

Sultan---I respect all of your points and most of your points. I guess I am almost saddened that nobody else cares we spend like crazy to be a bubble team and sweet 16 once a decade. If that is the price tag for this level of success I think we are being duped.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Pakuni---If I knew what Duke, Kentucky or UConn does differently I would tell you. I would think with the resources at our fingertips we would be able to figure out those guys gameplan. Maybe hire someone from their AD department.

Stability, at least in two of those.

Coach K has been at Duke for 30+ years

Coach Calhoun has been at UCONN for 25 years

I truly believe that is the main missing ingredient at MU.  We've had one guy, Al McGuire last more than a decade in the last 50 years.  One guy.

Also, in each of those programs they are not competing much against others in their sport.  Kentucky basketball is THE sport in Kentucky.  UCONN basketball..it's the basketball team in Connecticut.  Duke...well certainly they aren't the only game in the state but they also have a small gym to fill and really aren't the team in the state...in fact they are widely despised by many in the state who prefer UNC or NC State, but they have very strong niche and a huge national brand.   

Ultimately....winning.....more winning equals more fans equals more stability

[TJ]

Sultan---I respect all of your points and most of your points. I guess I am almost saddened that nobody else cares we spend like crazy to be a bubble team and sweet 16 once a decade. If that is the price tag for this level of success I think we are being duped.

I just don't think it's worthwhile to complain about it DURING a Sweet 16 run.  The only way to fix the problems you speak of is sustained success over time.  The team did its part this year.  Now you need patience because we can't get another tick mark in our Sweet 16 Appearances column until next March.

[NCAARules]

I just don't think it's worthwhile to complain about it DURING a Sweet 16 run.  The only way to fix the problems you speak of is sustained success over time.  The team did its part this year.  Now you need patience because we can't get another tick mark in our Sweet 16 Appearances column until next March.

Well said.

[Goose]

FYI--I am not complaining. I just happen to think that who will be our coach next season is more important to the school than if we win or not Friday. A win would be great, coach stability better in my humble opinion.

[rocky_warrior]

Coach K has been at Duke for 30+ years

Coach Calhoun has been at UCONN for 25 years

I truly believe that is the main missing ingredient at MU.  We've had one guy, Al McGuire last more than a decade in the last 50 years.  One guy.

Goose - Chicos has given you the holy grail of answer.  I understand MU spends a lot, I'm OK with that because MU is trying to give the program every competitive advantage it can (see the Synergy Sports Technology discussion a couple days - a very expensive tool).   

However, you need a good recruiter at the helm (we have one), and a good Xs and Os guy (he's getting better all the time), and you need him to stick around for a long time.  If we can keep Buzz, I think  we'll be fine.  If we can't, we'll be OK, but maintaining success will be much more difficult.

[Goose]

Rocky--Well stated. I guess I need to wait for the answer to the real question. What does MU have to do to have a coach want to stay? The AL, big salary, BE and good school appears to not cut it. Maybe I'll go with the flow and accept things as they are.

[Tugg Speedman]

Henry--Thank you for explaining my point in a better manner. I get very emotional because I love the place and think we are really good but could be better. You stated my point better than I did...thank you.

We have had many discussions about these spending numbers.  They are somewhat meaningless.  Their are no standards to which things are measured.  If you have a football program, you can bury costs there.  State schools are sensitive to taxpayers and tend to understate their spending.  Small Private Schools want to show they can compete with state schools and tend to use liberal accounting.

That said, we do know that MU is an above average spender.  Beyond that we cannot quantify a return on investment as the numbers are somewhat made up.

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Regarding Identity ... I feel many have missed another critical fact.  We have a 100% graduation rate, one of the few schools that do.  Even more rare is we have 100% graduation rate without a large number of "traditional" players.  Our players rarely get in trouble.  This all seems to matter to us a great deal.

If I could wave a wand and turn us into Kentucky, would you take that?  Sure you'll get a #1 seed every other year and a 3 of 4 FF trips a decade.  But along with that is the occasional NCAA sanction, cutting corners to get kids to qualify (see Derek Rose) drug arrests, beating up girlfriends and a low graduation rate.

Is this a trade you're willing to do?

[Goose]

Another MU--Agreed on the good of the program. Then our identity is solid student-athletes that graduate. I love that. Then do we need all the bells and whistles? I love ball a lot but if we could wave a wand over things I would prefer MU to become Northwestern than Kentucky. The school means as much to me as program.

[Tugg Speedman]

Rocky--Well stated. I guess I need to wait for the answer to the real question. What does MU have to do to have a coach want to stay? The AL, big salary, BE and good school appears to not cut it. Maybe I'll go with the flow and accept things as they are.

See my post above ... To be tOSU (see the football sanctions handed down this week), Kentucky or anyone not named Duke and UNC, you have NCAA sanctions, low graduation rates, drug busts and many other unseemly things.

Maybe we are too strict in our acceptance standards (we have them) and do not tolerate pot smoking at Humphrey.  Is that our problem?

[GGGG]

Are we too strict in our acceptance standards?  I doubt it.

[Tugg Speedman]

Are we too strict in our acceptance standards?  I doubt it.

See Calipari at Memphis with Derek Rose.  What if that happened here?  If they kid took us to the final game, you ok with it?

[TJ]

Rocky--Well stated. I guess I need to wait for the answer to the real question. What does MU have to do to have a coach want to stay? The AL, big salary, BE and good school appears to not cut it. Maybe I'll go with the flow and accept things as they are.

Coaching stability is huge.  Most of us agree with that.  But how do you know that MU hasn't already done what it needs to do to keep a coach?  How do you know that those things "appear to not cut it?"  Buzz has given no indication that he's leaving and every indication that he'll "stay as long as they'll have me."  Maybe they did what they needed to do by hiring Buzz.  I believe that was one of the reasons they hired him in the first place.  If it really gets you this worked up, stop reading every rumor and coach wish list out there.  Just because a bunch of bloggers and message board posters think Buzz would be good somewhere else doesn't mean he's going.

I don't know if we can truly believe Buzz on his "stay as long..." statement or not (I believe him, but I also don't think it's necessarily a lie if a perfect unexpected situation becomes available and he takes it), but we can be sure that the bloggers and experts are never going to think anyone is locked in at one place.  They still predict Mark Few and Tom Izzo to move many years.

[brewcity77]

We have had many discussions about these spending numbers.  They are somewhat meaningless.  Their are no standards to which things are measured.  If you have a football program, you can bury costs there.  State schools are sensitive to taxpayers and tend to understate their spending.  Small Private Schools want to show they can compete with state schools and tend to use liberal accounting.

That said, we do know that MU is an above average spender.  Beyond that we cannot quantify a return on investment as the numbers are somewhat made up.

--------

Regarding Identity ... I feel many have missed another critical fact.  We have a 100% graduation rate, one of the few schools that do.  Even more rare is we have 100% graduation rate without a large number of "traditional" players.  Our players rarely get in trouble.  This all seems to matter to us a great deal.

If I could wave a wand and turn us into Kentucky, would you take that?  Sure you'll get a #1 seed every other year and a 3 of 4 FF trips a decade.  But along with that is the occasional NCAA sanction, cutting corners to get kids to qualify (see Derek Rose) drug arrests, beating up girlfriends and a low graduation rate.

Is this a trade you're willing to do?

I agree with much of what's in here. As far as finances, I'd love to know where we spend. From what I've heard, one of the toughest things to do and biggest expenditures is scheduling, but when it comes to cupcakes, our scheduling is atrocious. So where does our money go? Is it all wrapped up in paying off The AL? Is it because of all the jet fuel used to scout recruits from California to Texas to Virginia?

As far as consistency, I feel we need it. And I hope that Buzz can provide it. But when you look at the top programs, you see Coach K at Duke, Boeheim at Syracuse, Calhoun at UConn, even Roy carrying on from his mentor Dean Smith at UNC. I'm really hoping we're still discussing Buzz as our head coach not just in 5 years, but in 10 and 20 years. That's the only way we'll ever reach elite status.

And in direct response to the trade-off, no, it's not worth it. I'd rather we make the tourney regularly, get the occasional Sweet 16, and maybe the blue moon Final Four run than be Kentucky. I can't help but think it will catch up with them at some point. I'd rather be clean and have kids representing us we can all be proud of than feel dirty because we've got the next Bruce Pearl at the helm.

[GGGG]

I agree with much of what's in here. As far as finances, I'd love to know where we spend. From what I've heard, one of the toughest things to do and biggest expenditures is scheduling, but when it comes to cupcakes, our scheduling is atrocious. So where does our money go? Is it all wrapped up in paying off The AL? Is it because of all the jet fuel used to scout recruits from California to Texas to Virginia?

I think most of it is used to support the other sports that MU needs to sponsor to be a member of the NCAA and the BE.  Between the other sports, MU probably has 60 or so (?) other athletes on scholarship, coaches, travel, etc.  But how much revenue do these sports generate?