One "bad" loss...back off!

[leever]

Bottom line is we are going to finish the regular season with 14 losses.

I couldn't care less if they were good losses, bad losses, almost wins - whatever you want to call them.

It also doesn't really make any difference whether the 14 losses were due to poor coaching, poor players, too many or too few 'switchables', transfers, "Buzz cuts", something that Chico said, something that Ners responded, bad luck, bad refs, lack of student support or the new scoreboard.

We still will have 14 losses - - and that's dissappointing.  Regardless of whether you expected more or less, you can't be happy with 14 losses.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You continue to understate the roster shakeup that Buzz dealt with upon arrival - yet excuse it for Crean at Indiana (or at least Chicos does). 

Are you really comparing the roster situations at the two school as if they were the same?  Are you telling me MU was at risk of probation?  Really?  Wow.

[NersEllenson]

Are you really comparing the roster situations at the two school as if they were the same?  Are you telling me MU was at risk of probation?  Really?  Wow.

What I'm saying is after year 1 at each school - Buzz at MU and Crean at IU (at which point everyone knew there was no post season ban..and even for spring recruiting in 2009 - which could help influence 2009-2010 season results) - the situations were not that different.

Buzz got Jimmy in Spring of 2008, DJO in Spring of 2009 and Crowder in Spring of 2010.  However you want to slice it....the disparity between finishing 3-15 in conference vs 9-9 is much greater than was the disparity of what both teams had entering the 2009 season.  Fact is Crean can't recruit JUCO's and get guys who are ready to play/contribute right away.  All of his JUCO's have been flops - which come to think of it - I'm now not surprised as to why you are so negative on JUCOs.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I said I believe Buzz will be a better coach here at MU.  Again..give him 9 years and lets see where its at..And no..by no means am I cooling on Buzz - still think he's  agreat coach for MU.  To have no hiccup after the Crean departure, the transfers, and the Taylors and Nick Williams not honoring their LOI's is really pretty awesome.  This is all I preach..a little perspective and patience.

It is funny how you keep saying 11th place finish with regard to this years team..yet as Lenny pointed out in other threads..you referred to the 2005 team which finished tied for 5th as a 5th place team...and not a 7th place team.  Why??  Same thing took place with the 2006 team.  A real gem you are indeed. 

You might want to read again your very post...I said 9th place finish and 11th seed....you even QUOTED it ("Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.") but still put out the faulty info anyway.  Good God.  Moronic...congratulations, you've outdone yourself.

You're right, transfers suck as do kids backing out of their NLIs....funny how you take such a different viewpoint of that when it involves another coach.

[NersEllenson]

You might want to read again your very post...I said 9th place finish and 11th seed....you even QUOTED it ("Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.") but still put out the faulty info anyway.  Good God.  Moronic...congratulations, you've outdone yourself.

You're right, transfers suck as do kids backing out of their NLIs....funny how you take such a different viewpoint of that when it involves another coach.

Newsflash - I'm fully aware you can go back and edit posts one makes on here.  We both know, plus Lenny's and a few others who saw the thread how you referred to this year's MU as the 11th place team (not the 9th place team and 11th seed.)  The fact you go back and edit it to cover your ass is all the more comical and evidence of your douchery.  You are a real piece of work.  What's it like living a lie??

[NersEllenson]

You might want to read again your very post...I said 9th place finish and 11th seed....you even QUOTED it ("Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.") but still put out the faulty info anyway.  Good God.  Moronic...congratulations, you've outdone yourself.

You're right, transfers suck as do kids backing out of their NLIs....funny how you take such a different viewpoint of that when it involves another coach.

This one?

When you finish in the Big East

2006  4th
2007  5th
2008  5th
2009  5th
2010  5th
2011  11th....well, let's just say Mu has proven the previous 5 years what its capable of. I guess we shouldn't aspire to those silly expectations....

What's ironic as hell is your posts the last two years saying we were on our way to Final Fours, Big East titles, etc...you got us all fired up ners and now you're backing down.  Why?

This one?

Great question...especially after finishing 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th and now 11th.

Not sure where I'm seeing an 11 seed??  Seem you keep stating 11th place..yet in the 2005 2006 years when we tied for 4th and t5th..it was that we finished in 4th and 5th..not 6th and 7th as could be said.  Why??

[ChicosBailBonds]

This one sweetheart

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25164.msg281100#msg281100

Your post, you quoted me...right there in the quote...do you knot even read what you're quoting?

Like I said, you've outdone yourself..congratulations.

[NersEllenson]

This one sweetheart

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25164.msg281100#msg281100

Your post, you quoted me...right there in the quote...do you knot even read what you're quoting?

Like I said, you've outdone yourself..congratulations.

Hey weirdo - enough with the sweetheart talk..or is that another lie you are living?  Pretending to be straight?  You may notice in your quote that you've "quoted" you it was March 6th at 9:46pm...yet the ones offered originally (until Lenny pointed out how you downgraded this year's teams tie to the lowest finish, yet upgraded Tom Crean team's ties to the "top place" tie finish), all occurred before March 6, 9:48pm.  So after getting called on it by Lenny..you then properly begin to refer to it as 9th place finish/11th seed. 

[brewcity77]

Bottom line is we are going to finish the regular season with 14 losses.

I couldn't care less if they were good losses, bad losses, almost wins - whatever you want to call them.

It also doesn't really make any difference whether the 14 losses were due to poor coaching, poor players, too many or too few 'switchables', transfers, "Buzz cuts", something that Chico said, something that Ners responded, bad luck, bad refs, lack of student support or the new scoreboard.

We still will have 14 losses - - and that's dissappointing.  Regardless of whether you expected more or less, you can't be happy with 14 losses.

Well, we only have one loss to teams outside the NCAA field. That's fewer than UNC, Florida, or Brigham Young. Our loss total is high, but it's largely a product of playing a ridiculous number of high-quality opponents. I'd rather see us with fewer than 10 losses, but if you're going to have losses, it's better to have them against teams that are legitimately good.

[Marquette84]

Give it a rest 84.  You have a long post history/legacy of pro-Crean, anti Buzz.  Call this year a hiccup if you want..but at least it isn't a complete disaster with a last place finish and 3 conference wins.

As I've said many times, I think Buzz did a tremendous job to keep the team performing at the level we were at from 2006 to 2008. 

But he hasn't demonstrated that he's raised our performance--as witnessed by 5th, 5th and 9th place finishes.

You continue to understate the roster shakeup that Buzz dealt with upon arrival -

How am I understating it?

This is my frustration with you--I give you facts, you respond with accusations of being anti-Buzz, but you can't ever provide any counter argument. 

Did Crean cause McMorrow's health issue?  No?  Then why is the fact that we don't have McMorrow blamed on Crean? 

I know exactly what your explantion is:  because McMorrow replaced Scott Chirstopherson's scholarship, you consider it a "free play" for Buzz.  Had McMorrow been a star, Buzz gets hailed as an outstanding recruiter.  But since McMorrow was a bust, we can go back and blame Crean for somehow causing Christopherson to leave. 

In fact, even when we DID fill the slot (e.g. with Butler), you STILL blame Crean for the very same vacancy that Butler filled.  Neat, isn't it?  Had Nick WIlliams not left, Buzz never would have been able to sign Butler.  But even replacing Nick WIlliams with Butler, Crean is blamed for a vacancy.

Did Crean cause Buzz to sign Roseboro and later kick him off? 
Did he come back and make Hazel offend people to the point he got kicked off the team? 
Did he cause Maymon's father to intervene to the point that Buzz had to kick Jeronne off the team? 
Did he cause Mbakwe to decide at the end of summer that he wanted to leave? 
Did he cause Smith to leave?  Newbill?

Here's my view:  When a coach takes over, he owns the team.  You don't get to blame the other guy once you fill the slots with your own players. 

yet excuse it for Crean at Indiana (or at least Chicos does). 

No.  I don't really care about what is going on at Indiana.  I don't think their struggles is a good excuse here. 

I'm not happy with 9th place finish just because Indiana is worse. 

It is not uncommon during a coaching change for players recruited by the previous coach to want to transfer, nor is it uncommon to have LOI's broken.  Buzz dealt with both - Mbawke, Christo, Taylor, Williams, Hazel (was basically kicked out of MU). 

Actually, I think it is uncommon, and represents one of my biggest disappointments with Buzz. 

I've already given you the analysis of both the O'Neill to Deane and Deane to Crean transitions--one player left during each transition.  With Crean to Buzz, we've had five such departures.

Find me an assistant promoted to head coach who saw five of his recruits/players leave. You're saying is not uncommon.  Fine.  Back it up. Should be easy given that you claim its not uncommon.  Give me examples.

To me that is 5 players that would all be 3 or 4 year program guys at this point, that had to be replaced..and rapidly. 

Once again, there weren't 5 players that had to be replaced rapidly--there were only 2.  You're counting players like Pat Hazel, who was on the team for an entire year after Buzz was head coach as a departure that is blamed on Crean.   Or Trevor Mbakwe--who decided to leave only after an entire summer with Buzz.

I don't think you've even acknowledged fundamental facts--like that that we were oversigned by 1 on the day Crean left?   The first departure didn't have to be replaced--in fact couldn't be replaced.  Do you honestly feel its "anti-Buzz" to point this out?

To do so, while also dealing with the graduation of 3 of the program's Top 10 scorers of all time after your first year...and never miss an NCAA...say that is pretty darn good. 

Wow, what a revelation.  Good players graduate.  Who knew?

Guess what?  Good players have left Uconn, West Virginia, Villanova, Louisville, Pitt--and they were replaced with other good players. 

Jay Wright didn't run around complaining that he had to sign a slew of JUCOs or blame Steve Lappas when he was hired--he went out and recruited Frasor, Ray, Foye, Sumpter, and Claxton.  All frosh.  All in the same class.  And when those players left, he didn't whine about losing so many good players--he reloaded with scottie reynolds, Corey Fisher, Corey Stokes, Antonio Pena.

THATs what I want the MU coach to do.  Not kittenfoot around trying to determine whether we have balanced classes, or JUCOs or transfers, or blaming a guy no longer here.  Go out and get the best players you can--and stand on your own record.

Give the guy some credit..as much as it may pain you.

I have given him credit--i have quite often complemented Buzz for continuing our 5th place finishes in 2009 and 2010.  I said it was a major accomplishment to keep us at that level.

I've also said that when Buzz's offense works, it works very very well, and is extremely entertaining. 

I also think Buzz has made mistakes.  I think we over rely on JUCOs and have wasted scholarships trying to "balance" classes that don't have to be balanced. I'm disappointed that we cant' seem to get frosh engaged early in their career. I think he royally screwed up with Newbill on two levels--missing out on his talent, and running him off the team. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

84...well done.  Facts, logic, the whole ball of wax...itemized as well.

Now be prepared to be attacked, called Joanie, not have your points rebutted but just blanket attacked. 

[NersEllenson]

84 - Your previous post, though very long, is reasonable and I won't disagree with the entirety of what you wrote.  I will say, however, where you point to Jay Wright's situation and how he's reloaded so effectively - yet in Jay Wright's 10th year he's 9-9 in conference?  Same as MU?

Also, Buzz doesn't make excuses about the situation he came into - actually compliments the program and job Tom Crean did - so not sure why you feel he makes excuses, etc?  Those of us who are fans, such as myself, will point out some of the challenges he faced.  

In the words of the immortal Chicos, we can give it 5 years.  I have a feeling by Buzz's 5th year - when he'll have 7, three and four year program guys - Otule, Cadougan, Wilson, Williams, Gardner, Blue, Jones - we'll be okay.  On this year's team we have 2, 3-year guys (Jimmy and Joe), and 2, 2-year guys (Buycks and DJO).  That is a pretty significant reduction of experience - when measured against where we'll be in Year 5.

Why get all up in arms about this seasons performance, when our conference record mirrors legendary coaches and programs - Calhoun and Wright/UCONN/NOVA - both of whom are Top 25 ranked this year??