One "bad" loss...back off!

[Lennys Tap]

I'm not as concerned with Chico's characterization of 9th versus 11th as I am with the fact that we've had five straight years of finishing in no worse than a tie for 5th, now we're tied for 9th.  

You're not sugarcoating anything by making a big deal out of the fact that we really finished in a 9th place tie instead of the 11th seed.   A tie for 9th isn't something to celebrate.

Believe me, I'm not celebrating our tie for ninth either. I'm just pointing out an obvious bit of hypocrisy on Chico's part. If that doesn't concern you I can't say I'm surprised.

[Tugg Speedman]

Seriously when was the last time UW gave up 93 points and lost by 30? WOW Ohio St looks good!

They ran a graphic at the end of the game .... Feb 2006 against AZ, over 5 years.

[NersEllenson]

Really...then why did you say with Buzz you thought we would win the Big East and go to MULTIPLE Final Fours....your expectations sure have changed in the last few months.  Weird.  What's happened?  All those expectations sure have changed in only 4 months...why ners?

In fact, you started a poll saying Buzz will get MU to a Final Four before TC and Bo Ryan (which was weird because TC had already accomplished that feat).  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21634.msg234861#msg234861

Then things like this...the addition of Jamil Wilson "increases the likelihood MU can make a Final Four" 

Or this gem..."That said, I see Buzz taking us on a Sweet 16 run this year, possibly a Final Four run in 2011-2012..and he'll have sent Jimmy Butler and DJO to the NBA at by that time.  Vander, Jamail Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith, Davante Gardner will be juniors..Erik Williams a senior...and Juan Anderson as sophomore...perhaps that team can make another deep run..possible Final Four."


"However, if DJO stays for his senior year (which some laugh at the notion that he could be an early entry candidate), and this year's freshman class develops well, add in Jamil Wilson - we very easily could be a Final Four caliber team."


Weird that you've changed all those expectations...weird.

This is pretty much psychotic...to reach back into the archive and extract these quotes.  But..i'll stand by them.  This year's team could potentially go to the Sweet 16 - season isn't over yet.  Next year's team could be better than this year's team.  We know CREAN is light years away from going to a Final Four - and duh..I'm aware TC went to a Final Four with D-Wade..point was present day forward.  Bo Ryan?  Got a chance this year..but we'll see.

I will say DJO's performance this year was a big surprise/disappointment.  I still think Buzz can take us to the upper reaches of the Big East..but am not freaking outover this seasons results as are some..as you like to say..give a guy 5 years before judging.  Should be an interesting team in that 5th year with Otule a Senior, Gardner a junior, Wilson a Senio, Cadougan a senior, Vander a JR, Jamil Jones a JR, Erik Williams a SR and Juan Anderson a Sophomore...

[Goose]

Ners---Just curious on what your overall appraisal of the program is? On some posts we are FF bound and some posts we are doomed to 9th in BE because of 100 excuses. Are we a work in progress under Buzz or is next year the finished product we will get?

[NersEllenson]

Ners---Just curious on what your overall appraisal of the program is? On some posts we are FF bound and some posts we are doomed to 9th in BE because of 100 excuses. Are we a work in progress under Buzz or is next year the finished product we will get?

I'm by no means saying MU is "doomed" to a 9th place finish in the Big East year in year out.  But, when you are tied with two teams who are also 9-9 that are ranked in the National Top 25 - well...I just don't see that we need to be freaking the hell out - as you, TJ and several others are.

Saragin and Pomroy have us in the Top 35.  Personally, if MU makes the NCAA tourney every year, hits an occasional Sweet 16 every 5 years, maybe 1 Elite 8 per decade - I'm pretty happy.  I very much do like what the MU team will look like in 2012-2013 season and remain optimistic for next year's team.  But looking at Year 5 under Buzz the team will feature:  Wilson, Otule, Erik Williams, Cadougan as seniors.  Vander, Jamil Jones, Gardner as juniors.  Juan Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and 2 others TBD as sophomores (or possibly jr/sr if JUCOs). 

[Goose]

Ners---Thanks for reply. I would be more excited being tied with two top 25 teams if I thought we were on the verge of something good. Feels like the wheels are falling off everyone's wagon this season.

[brewcity77]

Ners---Just curious on what your overall appraisal of the program is? On some posts we are FF bound and some posts we are doomed to 9th in BE because of 100 excuses. Are we a work in progress under Buzz or is next year the finished product we will get?

One thing I've found with Buzz is that we seem to be far too kneejerk of a community. Every loss is amplified into a need for change while every win is an endorsement of Buzz for life. It's almost surreal how crazy we can get, and I'll admit to sometimes being a part of that 

Personally, I think it's too early to really give an overall appraisal of the program under Buzz. He inherited a great class, but had two empty recruiting classes after that. This year, the only scholarship players we graduated were Buzz's three JUCOs. Next year it will be DJO and Crowder, two more JUCO additions. I think that it will be safe to start making a judgment once Buzz has his second "true" senior class. Once the current freshmen are seniors, it should be a fair time to make an assessment. Though the year before that will probably give us a lot of indicators of where we're at. How will we do with Cadougan, Otule, and Williams as seniors and Vander, Wilson, Gardner, and Jones as juniors? But even if that isn't quite up to snuff, I say Buzz deserves at least one more year. Add Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and whomever else he is able to sign this year (Mayo?) as juniors and we'll see where we're at. If we've fallen out of the NCAA picture by then and aren't able to regularly win 11+ games in the Big East, I will be pretty disappointed.

My hopes for Buzz are average finishes of 5th-7th in the Big East, but I can accept the occasional 9th or lower as long as it's offset by the occasional top 4. In the tournament, I feel that the Sweet 16 should be a realistic goal every year once his classes develop into seniors. We don't have to make it every year, but I do think we should be good enough to feel disappointed when we don't, and not surprised when we overachieve our way into an Elite 8 or Final Four. I'm not saying I expect us to be a perennial top 5-10 team, but I would like us to be a perennial top 15-25 team. If Buzz can get us there by the time VB is a senior, I'll be pleased. And if he can keep that up I don't see any reason why we wouldn't want to keep him as long as he'll stay.

[Marquette84]

Believe me, I'm not celebrating our tie for ninth either. I'm just pointing out an obvious bit of hypocrisy on Chico's part. If that doesn't concern you I can't say I'm surprised.

Fine--we can be concerned about different things.

You're more concerned about what Chicos says.  I'm more concerned about Marquette's performance.

[TJ]

I'm by no means saying MU is "doomed" to a 9th place finish in the Big East year in year out.  But, when you are tied with two teams who are also 9-9 that are ranked in the National Top 25 - well...I just don't see that we need to be freaking the hell out - as you, TJ and several others are.

Saragin and Pomroy have us in the Top 35.  Personally, if MU makes the NCAA tourney every year, hits an occasional Sweet 16 every 5 years, maybe 1 Elite 8 per decade - I'm pretty happy.  I very much do like what the MU team will look like in 2012-2013 season and remain optimistic for next year's team.  But looking at Year 5 under Buzz the team will feature:  Wilson, Otule, Erik Williams, Cadougan as seniors.  Vander, Jamil Jones, Gardner as juniors.  Juan Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and 2 others TBD as sophomores (or possibly jr/sr if JUCOs). 

I haven't posted anything remotely close to freaking out since before Cincy - I've realized that this team is just going to be whatever it is, and set us up for constant disappointment.

What I have posted about is to to call you out for your repeated mis-characterization of those you disagree with (hyperbole), and you have apparently taken that to be "freaking the hell out".  I think you are just as over the top as the people you call out, and I felt a desire to point it out.  Or do you really think that people were expecting a BE Title this year - which is what you started this thread with?

I did think it was comical to see your predictions before the season compared to what you claim expectations for the season were now.  Or were you predicting 9-9 in conference and a Sweet 16 appearance?

[GO MU!!]

They ran a graphic at the end of the game .... Feb 2006 against AZ, over 5 years.

Thanks for the info!

[NersEllenson]

Fine--we can be concerned about different things.

You're more concerned about what Chicos says.  I'm more concerned about Marquette's performance.

Seems you are also concerned with what Lenny's says.  BTW, how have you had a chance to talk with Tom Crean and ask him if he is at all concerned with IU's 3-15 finish in the Big 10 and second straight season of losing their last 8+ games??  Talk about a progarm with some performance issues.  WOW!

[NersEllenson]

I haven't posted anything remotely close to freaking out since before Cincy - I've realized that this team is just going to be whatever it is, and set us up for constant disappointment.

What I have posted about is to to call you out for your repeated mis-characterization of those you disagree with (hyperbole), and you have apparently taken that to be "freaking the hell out".  I think you are just as over the top as the people you call out, and I felt a desire to point it out.  Or do you really think that people were expecting a BE Title this year - which is what you started this thread with?

I did think it was comical to see your predictions before the season compared to what you claim expectations for the season were now.  Or were you predicting 9-9 in conference and a Sweet 16 appearance?

I was off in my pre-season pick -went with an optimistic 12-6.  According to you, considering we just lost 2 games against inferior teams - that we should of beat.. we would have finished 11-7.  Here's the real point -this season isn't over!!  That's my point all along.  We still probably get in the NCAA.  Maybe we do still make the Sweet 16 this year.  The Big East rated the hardest conference this year - which wasn't expected.  Hell when the "11th" place Big East team can take Wisco, Duke and Vandy to all within 5 - who all finished 2 or 3 in their respective conferences...just saying we might have a chance yet to win a game or two in the NCAA..

[TJ]

I was off in my pre-season pick -went with an optimistic 12-6.  According to you, considering we just lost 2 games against inferior teams - that we should of beat.. we would have finished 11-7.  Here's the real point -this season isn't over!!  That's my point all along.  We still probably get in the NCAA.  Maybe we do still make the Sweet 16 this year.  The Big East rated the hardest conference this year - which wasn't expected.  Hell when the "11th" place Big East team can take Wisco, Duke and Vandy to all within 5 - who all finished 2 or 3 in their respective conferences...just saying we might have a chance yet to win a game or two in the NCAA..

But.. since you think all emotions should be based on preseason expectations how could you be so calm since we missed yours by 3 games???

That's why we should all be calm, right?  Because "experts" predicted we would be where we are.  It doesn't matter that we've seen the games and seen the blown leads and seen the regression... we should be fine because expectations had us right where we are at.

[Marquette84]

Seems you are also concerned with what Lenny's says.  BTW, how have you had a chance to talk with Tom Crean and ask him if he is at all concerned with IU's 3-15 finish in the Big 10 and second straight season of losing their last 8+ games??  Talk about a progarm with some performance issues.  WOW!

I don't care what Crean does at Indiana.  I do care if Buzz matches what Crean previously did at Marquette.

This year, Buzz simply didn't get it done. 

The fact of the matter is that we have just finished our worst performance since joining the Big East.  After five straight years finishing no worse than a tie for fifth, this year we finished in a tie for 9th.

You seem to be consoled by the fact that we outperformed Indiana this year.

I'm sorry but I just don't find any reason for celebration in that.

[Silkk the Shaka]

I love everyone proclaiming that Buzz already failed this season. Last time I checked the season isn't over. Can we save these proclamations of over/underachievement for when the post-season ends and the results that matter are posted? Thanks in advance!

[Lennys Tap]

Fine--we can be concerned about different things.

You're more concerned about what Chicos says.  I'm more concerned about Marquette's performance.

Of course I never said that I was more concerned about about Chico's hypocisy than I am about MU's performance. Since I can walk and chew gum at the same time I'm able to address both. Sorry you can't.

[NersEllenson]

I love everyone proclaiming that Buzz already failed this season. Last time I checked the season isn't over. Can we save these proclamations of over/underachievement for when the post-season ends and the results that matter are posted? Thanks in advance!

Amen

[NersEllenson]

But.. since you think all emotions should be based on preseason expectations how could you be so calm since we missed yours by 3 games???

That's why we should all be calm, right?  Because "experts" predicted we would be where we are.  It doesn't matter that we've seen the games and seen the blown leads and seen the regression... we should be fine because expectations had us right where we are at.

TJ - Let's call it quits on this - You are trying to make something of nothing.  I never said I thought all emotions should be based on preseason expectations??  Let it go.  My point is the season isn't over.  Period.  The way SOME people go from high to low from a win over a Syracuse or UCONN on the road, to a loss to Cincy at home or Seton Hall on the road, or DePaul last year is ridiculous. 

Another thing - teams lose leads in basketball games.  It happens.  USF lost a 15 point 2nd half lead to MU.  Lville just lost a 6 point lead with under 20 seconds in regulation to WV and lost yesterday.  Why get all up in arms over this stuff??

I agree with you that MU has not looked good these last 2 games...and probably isn't peaking at the right time of year..and yes..I have concerns about how they will perform in the tourney....but big picture wise - UNC missed the damn NCAA last year, UCONN did too, MSU might this year...why do we as a fanbase have to bash the helll out of our coaches and team for having a tough season...a season that is not yet over?

[Marquette84]

Of course I never said that I was more concerned about about Chico's hypocisy than I am about MU's performance. Since I can walk and chew gum at the same time I'm able to address both.

First, you didn't address both.  

Second, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you were more concerned about what you didn't comment on (MU's 9th place Big East finish--our worst) than about than what you did comment about (Chico's referring to it as 11th place)

Let's go back and look at your first post in the thread:

Chicos "facts"     Actual Facts
2006 4th -    tied for 4th, 5th and 6th
2007 5th      tied for 5th and 6th
2008 5th -    tied for 5th and 6th
2009 5th -           5th
2010 5th -    tied for 5th and 6th
2011 11th -  tied for 9th, 10th and 11th

Don't you ever get tired of this BS? How can you do crap like this and say with a straight face you don't have an agenda?

Nothing about our performance.

Sure looks to me like your concern is that Chicos referred to it as 11th place.

Again, so what?  A 9th place tie is not something to celebrate.


Sorry--there's no sugarcoating a 9th place finish.  

[TJ]

TJ - Let's call it quits on this - You are trying to make something of nothing.  I never said I thought all emotions should be based on preseason expectations??  Let it go.  My point is the season isn't over.  Period.  The way SOME people go from high to low from a win over a Syracuse or UCONN on the road, to a loss to Cincy at home or Seton Hall on the road, or DePaul last year is ridiculous.

Fine with me, all I really want is for you to stop over-dramatizing every opinion more negative than your own.  I'm certainly guilty of what you're talking about here, I'll admit.  I'm trying not to post as much or as negatively after losses/bad performances, but there's nothing I can do about others.  This season has just been unique in that there haven't been many great successes to offset the lows.  ND is about it.  We blew a big lead against SU, we shouldn't have been in the USF situation, etc. - every other "success" had some type of asterisk next to it.  And there just wasn't enough of them to offset all the bad.  You may not believe it, but I have trying to take some of your advice and smooth it out a bit more for myself.  I stayed upset for only like 20 minutes after Seton Hall.  Might have helped that I missed the first half hour.

Another thing - teams lose leads in basketball games.  It happens.  USF lost a 15 point 2nd half lead to MU.  Lville just lost a 6 point lead with under 20 seconds in regulation to WV and lost yesterday.  Why get all up in arms over this stuff??

I don't know how to answer this, except to say that if I didn't get annoyed by a blown lead I don't think I would have enough personal investment in the game to watch at all.  At least with regularity.

I agree with you that MU has not looked good these last 2 games...and probably isn't peaking at the right time of year..and yes..I have concerns about how they will perform in the tourney....but big picture wise - UNC missed the damn NCAA last year, UCONN did too, MSU might this year...why do we as a fanbase have to bash the helll out of our coaches and team for having a tough season...a season that is not yet over?

Pretty much same answer as above.  The large personal investment we have in the game/team is the reason we discuss them, and if it's bad we discuss the bad.  Sometimes in the heat of the moment it gets worse than maybe it should I guess.

I do try not to bash individual players too much; I agree with you that we should limit that as much as possible.  I feel like the coaches should be a little less protected, as they're adults and paid for their position.

[NersEllenson]

Fine with me, all I really want is for you to stop over-dramatizing every opinion more negative than your own.  I'm certainly guilty of what you're talking about here, I'll admit.  I'm trying not to post as much or as negatively after losses/bad performances, but there's nothing I can do about others.  This season has just been unique in that there haven't been many great successes to offset the lows.  ND is about it.  We blew a big lead against SU, we shouldn't have been in the USF situation, etc. - every other "success" had some type of asterisk next to it.  And there just wasn't enough of them to offset all the bad.  You may not believe it, but I have trying to take some of your advice and smooth it out a bit more for myself.  I stayed upset for only like 20 minutes after Seton Hall.  Might have helped that I missed the first half hour.
I don't know how to answer this, except to say that if I didn't get annoyed by a blown lead I don't think I would have enough personal investment in the game to watch at all.  At least with regularity.
Pretty much same answer as above.  The large personal investment we have in the game/team is the reason we discuss them, and if it's bad we discuss the bad.  Sometimes in the heat of the moment it gets worse than maybe it should I guess.

I do try not to bash individual players too much; I agree with you that we should limit that as much as possible.  I feel like the coaches should be a little less protected, as they're adults and paid for their position.

Good points...and I do see your point about coaches being more eligible targets than the players..as they are adults and are paid a lot of money.  In all seriousness, I used to get super HOT during games....to the point of throwing things in my house...it was really pretty ridiculous...but for some reason, this year in particular...other than Lville..I haven't flown off the handle as much.  My personal opinion is that the kids and coaching staff are trying their damndest to win..perhaps both are trying too hard..as crazy as that sounds..sometimes itcan lead to being/playing tight.  The best thing for this team might ery well be a break from practice between now and the Big East tourney..and perhaps some more time off before the NCAA.  They need to get refreshed/and some time away would help.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is pretty much psychotic...to reach back into the archive and extract these quotes.  But..i'll stand by them.  This year's team could potentially go to the Sweet 16 - season isn't over yet.  Next year's team could be better than this year's team.  We know CREAN is light years away from going to a Final Four - and duh..I'm aware TC went to a Final Four with D-Wade..point was present day forward.  Bo Ryan?  Got a chance this year..but we'll see.

I will say DJO's performance this year was a big surprise/disappointment.  I still think Buzz can take us to the upper reaches of the Big East..but am not freaking outover this seasons results as are some..as you like to say..give a guy 5 years before judging.  Should be an interesting team in that 5th year with Otule a Senior, Gardner a junior, Wilson a Senio, Cadougan a senior, Vander a JR, Jamil Jones a JR, Erik Williams a SR and Juan Anderson a Sophomore...

Was it psychotic when you did it to me, and other posters here in the last few months?  LOL...no no, not psychotic then, only now.  LOL. What a gem you are. As far as reaching back into the archive, it was October and November of THIS SEASON for some of those gems.

Who cares what TC is doing at IU...you said Buzz was a better coach HERE, at MARQUETTE.  Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.  I hope you are right about Buzz's greatness and the upcoming Final Fours (multiple trips).  It was just so weird to see you cool on him the last few days, I was hoping you weren't feeling ill or something.  Going from multiple Final Fours to saying we should all be satisfied with an 11 seed and 9th place finishes because UCONN and Nova finished with the same record is so...so...so not endearing any confidence of man crush love, quite frankly.

Yes, I concur the season is not over and depending on the draw, we could get to the Sweet 16...and rest assured you will be on that mountain top telling us how great things are...and if we lose and don't go there....rest assured you'll also tell us to be damn happy with what we have and be proud of that 11 seed.  It's wonderful for you, either outcome you get to have it your way.

[NersEllenson]

Was it psychotic when you did it to me, and other posters here in the last few months?  LOL...no no, not psychotic then, only now.  LOL. What a gem you are. As far as reaching back into the archive, it was October and November of THIS SEASON for some of those gems.

Who cares what TC is doing at IU...you said Buzz was a better coach HERE, at MARQUETTE.  Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.  I hope you are right about Buzz's greatness and the upcoming Final Fours (multiple trips).  It was just so weird to see you cool on him the last few days, I was hoping you weren't feeling ill or something.  Going from multiple Final Fours to saying we should all be satisfied with an 11 seed and 9th place finishes because UCONN and Nova finished with the same record is so...so...so not endearing any confidence of man crush love, quite frankly.

Yes, I concur the season is not over and depending on the draw, we could get to the Sweet 16...and rest assured you will be on that mountain top telling us how great things are...and if we lose and don't go there....rest assured you'll also tell us to be damn happy with what we have and be proud of that 11 seed.  It's wonderful for you, either we you get to have it your way.

I said I believe Buzz will be a better coach here at MU.  Again..give him 9 years and lets see where its at..And no..by no means am I cooling on Buzz - still think he's  agreat coach for MU.  To have no hiccup after the Crean departure, the transfers, and the Taylors and Nick Williams not honoring their LOI's is really pretty awesome.  This is all I preach..a little perspective and patience.

It is funny how you keep saying 11th place finish with regard to this years team..yet as Lenny pointed out in other threads..you referred to the 2005 team which finished tied for 5th as a 5th place team...and not a 7th place team.  Why??  Same thing took place with the 2006 team.  A real gem you are indeed. 

Thankfully, I don't have to be a fan of IU, as do you...that must be nasueating having to watch the 2nd straight last place finish in the Big 10..with the season ending on an 8 game losing streak.  But hey...its all okay at IU..because for 1 year they had to limit recruiting phone calls and had to take away 1 scholarship for 1 year.

[Marquette84]

I said I believe Buzz will be a better coach here at MU.  Again..give him 9 years and lets see where its at..And no..by no means am I cooling on Buzz - still think he's  agreat coach for MU.  To have no hiccup after the Crean departure, the transfers, and the Taylors and Nick Williams not honoring their LOI's is really pretty awesome.  This is all I preach..a little perspective and patience.

I'd say finishing 4 places lower than our previous low-water mark in the Big East would be considered by most to be a hiccup. 

And as you usually do, you overstate the shakeup to the roster.  Buzz had only two roster openings to fill, which were both filled within weeks of his promotion.  Did you forget about Butler and McMorrow?  13 of 13 scholarships were filled.

[NersEllenson]

I'd say finishing 4 places lower than our previous low-water mark in the Big East would be considered by most to be a hiccup. 

And as you usually do, you overstate the shakeup to the roster.  Buzz had only two roster openings to fill, which were both filled within weeks of his promotion.  Did you forget about Butler and McMorrow?  13 of 13 scholarships were filled.

Give it a rest 84.  You have a long post history/legacy of pro-Crean, anti Buzz.  Call this year a hiccup if you want..but at least it isn't a complete disaster with a last place finish and 3 conference wins.

You continue to understate the roster shakeup that Buzz dealt with upon arrival - yet excuse it for Crean at Indiana (or at least Chicos does).  It is not uncommon during a coaching change for players recruited by the previous coach to want to transfer, nor is it uncommon to have LOI's broken.  Buzz dealt with both - Mbawke, Christo, Taylor, Williams, Hazel (was basically kicked out of MU). 

To me that is 5 players that would all be 3 or 4 year program guys at this point, that had to be replaced..and rapidly.  To do so, while also dealing with the graduation of 3 of the program's Top 10 scorers of all time after your first year...and never miss an NCAA...say that is pretty darn good.  Give the guy some credit..as much as it may pain you.