One "bad" loss...back off!

[Goose]

Ners you are correct we have not been elite since the 70's, so what? That does not mean that status quo has to be accepted. We are close enough that we see elite programs without straining our eyes. Unfortunately programs in the rearview mirror are closer than we should like. We can stay a middle of the road BE program forever. I would prefer to see a forward moving breakout than all out collapse.

We have facilities like the big boys and spend money like them, so why not get in the same team photo as UNC, Duke and Kansas? If we are not careful we will end being St. Louis or Dayton.

[Tugg Speedman]

so why not get in the same team photo as UNC, Duke and Kansas? If we are not careful we will end being St. Louis or Dayton.

After reading all the Tokoto posts, I thought the reason we are not Duke or UNC is Milwaukee has bad weather, ugly girls and third world public schools ... just like St. Louis and Dayton.

[TJ]

We have facilities like the big boys and spend money like them, so why not get in the same team photo as UNC, Duke and Kansas? If we are not careful we will end being St. Louis or Dayton.

This is what Ners has a problem with.  We should be trying to get into the PITT, SU, GU, UW, etc. team picture before we start worrying about aspiring to be with UNC, Duke, or KU.

[Goose]

I'd take the Pitt, UW,GU and SU team photo.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My expectations for the MU program are no greater than what UNC, UCONN, MSU or other elite programs have achieved thelast decade.  Some of those schools went to the NIT last year, or might be headed there this year.  I'm not going to FREAK out if MU has a slightly down year.  If you can't see the perspctive in looking at UCONN and Villanova - both who are ranked in the Top 20 NATIONALLY and see that MU finished with the same conference record as both..and see we are practically a Top 25 team - sorry...but i don't think MU should be flying off the handle at a team that is practically Top 25 natioanlly.  I hope MU can become as elite as a UNC, UCONN or MSU - but they really haven't been since the 1970s.  We had a flash in the pan in 2003 with a once in a program type of player - D-Wade.  Other than that??  1 Sweet 16 appearance since 1977..I believe.

Really...then why did you say with Buzz you thought we would win the Big East and go to MULTIPLE Final Fours....your expectations sure have changed in the last few months.  Weird.  What's happened?  All those expectations sure have changed in only 4 months...why ners?

In fact, you started a poll saying Buzz will get MU to a Final Four before TC and Bo Ryan (which was weird because TC had already accomplished that feat).  http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21634.msg234861#msg234861

Then things like this...the addition of Jamil Wilson "increases the likelihood MU can make a Final Four" 

Or this gem..."That said, I see Buzz taking us on a Sweet 16 run this year, possibly a Final Four run in 2011-2012..and he'll have sent Jimmy Butler and DJO to the NBA at by that time.  Vander, Jamail Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith, Davante Gardner will be juniors..Erik Williams a senior...and Juan Anderson as sophomore...perhaps that team can make another deep run..possible Final Four."


"However, if DJO stays for his senior year (which some laugh at the notion that he could be an early entry candidate), and this year's freshman class develops well, add in Jamil Wilson - we very easily could be a Final Four caliber team."


Weird that you've changed all those expectations...weird.

[mugrad2006]

No I didn't...the number to the left of those teams showed what place they finished.  The number 4 was for fourth place.  I disagree with you.  In fact, last year Dan Guerrero, the chair of the committee, said that it's more complex than ever because of unbalanced schedules.  They don't just look at what "place you finished" because they are not all equal.  Is our 9th place finish the same as UCONN and NOVA?  Nope, already showed that earlier today.  We had easier conference schedules than UCONN and Nova.  Unless you don't believe the committee chairman.

I'll ask again, let's use your seeding numbers...which one is not like the others in the past 6 years...it's a simple question really.

Chicos was right in making me correct this, and I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong.  Let's just call it like it is, using BEast Tourney seeding

2006  6th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 11th

Yes, we're down this year and it 'doesn't look like the others.'  BUT, we've happily over achieved relative to consensus expectations in the past few years, and regressed this year.

I've forgotten what point you're trying to prove other than we're not as good this year and a bit of a disappointment. That's definitely true, I thought we'd finish 6th this year.  Is it that Buzz is a bad coach?  He's got a couple years to prove himself yet.  Is it that we're not as good as the Badgers relative to our conference?  I'll make the argument that in the '07 - '10 seasons we would have finished in the top 3 of the Big 10.  

We've made the tourney six years running, and if we beat Providence we'll make it 7 in a row.  Maybe the lower regular season results will light a fire under this team and they make it out of the first weekend this year, maybe not.  

[Marquette84]

If you want to split the hairs between finishing 8th or 11th we can - as there were several 9-9 teams as you are aware.  Considering the mess Buzz Williams walked into at Marquette, due to the shoddy recruiting of Tom Crean after the Big 3, Tom Crean's transfers, as well as the kids who signed with MU, only to leave after the coaching change - MU hit a bump.  The fact the performance hasn't dropped off further is a HUGE testament to our head coach.

You can repeat fallacy as many times as you want, it doesn't change the fact within weeks of being named coach, Buzz had 13 of 13 scholarships filled--two of them with future NBA players, four of them making up 40% of our top 10 all-time scorers.

I question your ability to judge Crean's recruiting honestly.  James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward were shoddy?  Even Acker and Cubillan demonstrated a high level of performance when they were asked to step up.  And let's admit the truth--Christopherson would have added a much-needed outside shooting touch to this year's team and Mbakwe would have provided a strong inside force.  Crean's recruiting was hardly shoddy.

You seem to want to give Buzz huge credit for improving the team by landing players like Butler and DJO and Buycks when they replaced the scholarships vacated by Taylor and Nick Williams and Christopherson.  But then you turn around blame Crean when Buzz's recruits haven't delivered the expected results.

Statsheet didn't lie.  YOU just picked the high tiebreakers in older years and the low tiebreaker this year.  Why not just admit that you picked the tiebreakers arbitrarily and it by chance made you look biased instead of playing the spin game you did?  

So what?

I'm not as concerned with Chico's characterization of 9th versus 11th as I am with the fact that we've had five straight years of finishing in no worse than a tie for 5th, now we're tied for 9th.  

You're not sugarcoating anything by making a big deal out of the fact that we really finished in a 9th place tie instead of the 11th seed.   A tie for 9th isn't something to celebrate.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'd take the Pitt, UW,GU and SU team photo.

I think we are in the team photo with these schools now (save UW as they are slightly better).  

Hypothetical, If I could guarantee you an elite 8 game this year but you have to give me an NIT season next year, would you take that trade?  Or would you prefer and NCAA team every year and take your chances in the tourney (which is what we have now)?

[mugrad2006]

You're not sugarcoating anything by making a big deal out of the fact that we really finished in a 9th place tie instead of the 11th seed.   A tie for 9th isn't something to celebrate.

Agreed.

[Goose]

I want the same thing UW fans want, goal of conference championship every year. We get wood if we place 4th in BE and complain after NCAA gives lower seed than we think we deserve. I am pretty certain UW fans will not be crying about their seed in a week.

[GO MU!!]

Well all the bad posts about UW on the road are appearing to be correct again, they are not doing well right now at Ohio State.

To me the one thing that is keeping us from being a really good team is a go to guy. Butler tries hard and DJO had five minutes of one game where he was that good. Outside of that, we have nobody that really wants the ball when we really need a basket. We can only hope someone develops that mentality in the off season or next year will not be any better even with the new recruits.

As far as making it out of the 1st weekend in the tourney, I would love making it out of the 1st game.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm not debating which year is not like the others.  I'm saying if you take place in conference via records, in the earlier years you gave MU the benefit of the doubt relative to BEast seeding.  This year to prove your point you stated MU finished 11th when to stay consistent with previous years you should have placed them 9th.  Now, you might have an argument that in previous years MU had the 'best' result relative to SOS their ties in 5th and 6th place, but I'm not gonna go back and do make that argument.  

Let's just call it like it is, using BEast Tourney seeding

2006  6th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 9th

Ahem...aren't we seeded 11th in 2011....aren't you guilty of exactly what you just said I was guilty of?    Now, if Lenny didn't like you, he would call you a liar.  I like you, I'll just say it was a mistake on your part.  

[mugrad2006]

Ahem...aren't we seeded 11th in 2011....aren't you guilty of exactly what you just said I was guilty of?    Now, if Lenny didn't like you, he would call you a liar.  I like you, I'll just say it was a mistake on your part.  

Yup, you're correct, I admit it.  Now that I think about it, not sure why I'm even arguing this point.  Just taking out some frustration at the poor performances in the last two games, it's gotten me a little testy. 

[mugrad2006]

 I like you, I'll just say it was a mistake on your part.  

That's awfully generous from someone who's never met me and has been trying to destroy you on MU Scoop for the past 3 months.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well all the bad posts about UW on the road are appearing to be correct again, they are not doing well right now at Ohio State.

Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?

They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December.  They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year.  As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC

[GO MU!!]

Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?

They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December.  They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year.  As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC

Definitely has to do with who they are playing. I was just agreeing with the knock I hear from the talking heads on TV and on these blogs that say they can't win big games on the road. I was not cutting them down at all, I have been a fan of UW for a long time, especially their football team. I just happen to love MU basketball more then UW basketball.

[mugrad2006]

Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?

They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December.  They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year.  As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC

To your point, two of those are neutral court wins, two others are against >100 RPI teams, and their only top 50 RPI road win is actually a neutral court win against BC (RPI 41).  

MU's best road win is a true road win against RPI 24 UCONN, and they've had 7 RPI top 50 road games vs. Wisconsin's four (of which UW-Madison lost all 4, they split their two neutral coart top 50 games).  

[TJ]

No more obnoxious than those who are all up in arms over how bad this team is, that Buzz should be canned, etc. 

However, if you would, please do rebut the content of my post and tell me why my "hyperbole" is so far off base and obnoxious, than the reality of a lot of what gets thrown out around here with regard to expectations/overreactions.

Also, I understand that some posters are over the top with their negativity.  But personally I don't think the best way to counter that is to go further in the opposite direction.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think we are in the team photo with these schools now (save UW as they are slightly better).  

Hypothetical, If I could guarantee you an elite 8 game this year but you have to give me an NIT season next year, would you take that trade?  Or would you prefer and NCAA team every year and take your chances in the tourney (which is what we have now)?

What do you mean by in the team photo?

[GO MU!!]

Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?

They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December.  They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year.  As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC

UW down 21.........

[GO MU!!]

UW down 21.........

OUCH down 25

[Goose]

Team photo= programs of similar status. I want the Varsity picture, not the JV.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Team photo= programs of similar status. I want the Varsity picture, not the JV.

Maybe a few years ago we were in the team photo with Syracuse, Pittsburgh, etc....

[GO MU!!]

OUCH down 25

Seriously when was the last time UW gave up 93 points and lost by 30? WOW Ohio St looks good!

[ChicosBailBonds]

OUCH down 25

Yup, OSU is good...undefeated at home this year.  Only lost two games...to Wisconsin and Purdue.