Does the transfer of little Rivers to IU make anyone think Doc has no place in MU bball's future? Seriously, he was said to be big supporter of Buzz hire, even without knowing him well. It seems to me that Doc is either completely out of touch with MU or is a complete idiot.
Doc was a good MU player and a better pro. With all the MU greats I would not have him in the top ten players of alltime. So really why is he a BOT and involved in hiring of a coach? Do we need his check that badly?
All this said, I like Doc alot. I liked him as a player and a person. He was good representative for MU when he was a player. But I really do not see how or why he is a involved in the program's decisions currently or moving forward.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 10, 2008, 01:10:53 PM
Does the transfer of little Rivers to IU make anyone think Doc has no place in MU bball's future? Seriously, he was said to be big supporter of Buzz hire, even without knowing him well. It seems to me that Doc is either completely out of touch with MU or is a complete idiot.
Doc was a good MU player and a better pro. With all the MU greats I would not have him in the top ten players of alltime. So really why is he a BOT and involved in hiring of a coach? Do we need his check that badly?
All this said, I like Doc alot. I liked him as a player and a person. He was good representative for MU when he was a player. But I really do not see how or why he is a involved in the program's decisions currently or moving forward.
None of this makes any sense. He said it was his son's decision and he did not want him to transfer.
Also, shouldn't Buzz actually fail before you start assigning blame for his hire?
Lets see what happens in three years when his son Austin, who will probably be a five star HS point guard by then, makes his decision.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 01:16:26 PM
None of this makes any sense. He said it was his son's decision and he did not want him to transfer.
Also, shouldn't Buzz actually fail before you start assigning blame for his hire?
I didn't see any blame laid in the first post. All he mentioned was a fact: Doc is supportive of the Buzz hiring but has been quoted as saying he doesn't really know who Buzz is.
I think you need to cut back to one latte a day. You're a little hyperactive.
AnotherMU---How many D1 schools could he have transferred to? As a parent you can guide or even tell your kid what to do within reason. It does not look good for Doc or his family. Never said Buzz is going to fail. But, obviously Doc has conflict of interest so why he is involved in the process?
NYG--- ;D Stated earlier that Austin is the one we want. So I cannot argue your point at all. I do question Doc's loyalty in the whole thing. I am glad he is at IU but I do think it looks bad for all involved.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 10, 2008, 01:47:35 PM
AnotherMU---How many D1 schools could he have transferred to? As a parent you can guide or even tell your kid what to do within reason. It does not look good for Doc or his family. Never said Buzz is going to fail. But, obviously Doc has conflict of interest so why he is involved in the process?
NYG--- ;D Stated earlier that Austin is the one we want. So I cannot argue your point at all. I do question Doc's loyalty in the whole thing. I am glad he is at IU but I do think it looks bad for all involved.
Doc said he did not want his son to transfer. But as a 20 years old, doc let him make his own decision. Why does that disqualify him from being on the BOT? Again this makes no sense.
AnotherMU-- He should be disqualified because he is out of touch with MU basketball. Being a former player and NBA coach does not make you an expert on hiring a coach at MU. His role on the BOT is due to his stature in MU history, not because he is the most qualified.
Give me a break. Doc is awesome guy, great father, good former player, decent NBA coach and that is it. Do you think the coach of the Celtics has a lot of time on his hands to be part of a search committee? Doc is TC buddy and he passed on TC's words to the board.
If I were Doc I would have stepped down when his son went to GU. It is a conflict of interest. We try and get the same type of students/athletes. If you were Doc would you want your sons team to win or MU?
This argument may be moot as I dont think a BE player can transfer to another BE school.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 10, 2008, 02:10:02 PM
AnotherMU-- He should be disqualified because he is out of touch with MU basketball. Being a former player and NBA coach does not make you an expert on hiring a coach at MU. His role on the BOT is due to his stature in MU history, not because he is the most qualified.
Give me a break. Doc is awesome guy, great father, good former player, decent NBA coach and that is it. Do you think the coach of the Celtics has a lot of time on his hands to be part of a search committee? Doc is TC buddy and he passed on TC's words to the board.
If I were Doc I would have stepped down when his son went to GU. It is a conflict of interest. We try and get the same type of students/athletes. If you were Doc would you want your sons team to win or MU?
Ok, let me get this straight, Doc should be disqualified because his son did not come to MU. And, if his son Austin doesn't some to MU that seals his fate on the BOT.
How is this different from Buzz hiring Jamil Wilson's father as an assistant coach and firing him if Jamil doesn't come to MU? What you are suggesting is MU should operate on the fringes of ethical behavior. BOT spots should be handed out not based on your ability to make the total MU experience better, but on your ability to deliver a starting point guard.
Also, why do you keep coming back to the hiring of Buzz? Doc did not hire him, Cottingham did. Their was no search committee. Doc did offer his opinion and he was in favor of Buzz. You still have not made a case for why he should step down? And carrying your flawed logic one step further, should every member of the BOT be forced to resign that were in favor of hiring Buzz? I believe all of them were.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 10, 2008, 02:10:02 PM
AnotherMU-- He should be disqualified because he is out of touch with MU basketball. Being a former player and NBA coach does not make you an expert on hiring a coach at MU. His role on the BOT is due to his stature in MU history, not because he is the most qualified.
Give me a break. Doc is awesome guy, great father, good former player, decent NBA coach and that is it. Do you think the coach of the Celtics has a lot of time on his hands to be part of a search committee? Doc is TC buddy and he passed on TC's words to the board.
If I were Doc I would have stepped down when his son went to GU. It is a conflict of interest. We try and get the same type of students/athletes. If you were Doc would you want your sons team to win or MU?
You continue to prove my original thoughts: You're an idiot.
Could be the strangest, goofy, dumb and idiotic posts I have ever read on the web and I have seen my share. Murf makes more sense, did I say that?
Quote from: mviale on May 10, 2008, 02:24:37 PM
This argument may be moot as I dont think a BE player can transfer to another BE school.
You are correct.
Doc should have never been on the board in the first place.
Quote from: nola03 on May 10, 2008, 01:47:06 PM
I didn't see any blame laid in the first post. All he mentioned was a fact: Doc is supportive of the Buzz hiring but has been quoted as saying he doesn't really know who Buzz is.
I think you need to cut back to one latte a day. You're a little hyperactive.
Where is he quoted as saying "he doesn't really know who Buzz is?"
Quote from: MUDPT on May 10, 2008, 05:56:21 PM
Doc should have never been on the board in the first place.
Of course.
A successful, intelligent, prominent public figure and graduate is the last person Marquette would want representing it.
I agree with your points, but he also holds down a job in Boston with a schedule that is not very flexible. I like Doc; I think he is a good representative of Marquette. I just don't think he is that in touch with the university to help make decisions.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 10, 2008, 06:18:01 PM
Where is he quoted as saying "he doesn't really know who Buzz is?"
It's not a direct quote, it was in a story from a news reporter describing the relationship
http://www.620wtmj.com/sports/17329929.html
Rivers said he doesn't know Williams particularly well, but thinks he could do the job.
"I knew him through Tom and going to practices," said Rivers, who was in Charlotte for the Celtics' game against the Bobcats on Saturday night. "It would be terrific if he got it. We'll see."
Quote from: MUDPT on May 10, 2008, 06:33:14 PM
I agree with your points, but he also holds down a job in Boston with a schedule that is not very flexible. I like Doc; I think he is a good representative of Marquette. I just don't think he is that in touch with the university to help make decisions.
You don't understand what a BOT does. The don't make "decisions." They hire an adminstration to do that. All they do is oversee the adminstration.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 10, 2008, 07:33:04 PM
You don't understand what a BOT does. The don't make "decisions." They hire an adminstration to do that. All they do is oversee the adminstration.
That, and donate a boatload of money. Let's face it, if you aren't paying the Piper, you aren't asked to serve on the BOT.
But Doc isn't your average BOT guy; he was one of a few BOT guys who were involved in the hiring. Most BOT guys and gals were shut out of the process. Not Doc. My biggest beef with Doc is that it appeared that he knew about TC to IU before Fr Wild & Co. I think as a BOT member he has a fiducciary responsibility to MU to share that info.
Is the original post again some indirect sour grapes? A BOT member son transfers to our hated former coach, so let's get rid of that BOT member? Let's get bigger than this pile of crap and focus on getting good players and winning. And is it a bad thing that Doc Rivers didn't know alot about Buzz? Doc didn't hire Buzz, it was by committee. The memory of Crean will only stay around as long as we want him to. Here's to future Marquette wins!
Quote from: Schoolyard on May 10, 2008, 09:53:41 PM
But Doc isn't your average BOT guy; he was one of a few BOT guys who were involved in the hiring. Most BOT guys and gals were shut out of the process. Not Doc. My biggest beef with Doc is that it appeared that he knew about TC to IU before Fr Wild & Co. I think as a BOT member he has a fiducciary responsibility to MU to share that info.
Show mw where Doc was involved in the hiring process? Everything I've read is it was Cottingham and Father Wild only.
Also show me where it says he knew about TC to MU before everyone else? Do you mean the day it came down? Wild was on a plane to DC at the same time Cottingham was on aplane to Denver. Maybe at that moment Crean called Rivers because the others were unavailable.
NCMUfan---I am glad Rivers transferred to IU. That transfer is a joke in many ways. I do not think Doc should have been on the BOT before TC left. I think there is conflict of interests or at least a potential for bad PR when your BOT's are sending their kids to another private school. Now if MU did not have a sport that Rivers played then the excuse is built in for them. But, Georgetown not only has a ball team, they are in our conference, a private school and recruit some of the same students.
Around the country most people would say if asked the question about "Rivers to Georgetown or MU?" answer is Georgetown, who wouldn't pick Georgetown? I say a BOT's son shouldn't pick Georgetown that's who!!!!! It looks bad.
Muball--Thanks for kind words. Honestly, I now know why MU strives for sixth place in BE. Some fans completely play follow the leader.
Schoolyard--Exactly. Indications are that Doc knew TC was leaving before anyone else on BOT or adin. That is major conflict of interest.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2008, 07:22:49 PM
It's not a direct quote, it was in a story from a news reporter describing the relationship
http://www.620wtmj.com/sports/17329929.html
Rivers said he doesn't know Williams particularly well, but thinks he could do the job.
"I knew him through Tom and going to practices," said Rivers, who was in Charlotte for the Celtics' game against the Bobcats on Saturday night. "It would be terrific if he got it. We'll see."
Saying he's met the guy but doesn't know him "particularly well" is a far cry from not knowing who he is, don't you think?
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 11, 2008, 07:30:11 AM
NCMUfan---I am glad Rivers transferred to IU. That transfer is a joke in many ways. I do not think Doc should have been on the BOT before TC left. I think there is conflict of interests or at least a potential for bad PR when your BOT's are sending their kids to another private school.
Do you really think that he is the only member of the BOT with kids going to different private schools?
BOT
http://www.marquette.edu/about/leadership/trustees.shtml
I guess these BOT members have to leave as well ....
Rev. Timothy R. Lannon, S.J.
President, Saint Joseph's University
** Someone from another private university? Off with his head!
Rev. Joseph M. O'Keefe, S.J.
Dean and Professor of Education, Boston College
** ditto
Rev. Douglas Marcouiller, S.J.
Associate Professor of Economics, Saint Louis University
** ditto
Rev. Thomas H. Tobin, S.J.
Professor of Theology, Loyola University Chicago
** ditto
Mr. Ulice Payne, Jr.
Bus Ad '78, Law '82, President Addison-Clifton, LLC
** Another former MU player - must have conspired with Doc to hire Buzz. I also heard he found out about Crean leaving for IU in 2006 and told no one!
Mrs. Mary Ladish Selander
Director of Development Lyric Opera of Chicago
** she doesn't even have an MU degree! Fire her immediately!!
Ms. Kristine A. Rappé
Senior Vice President and Chief Administrative Officer, Wisconsin Energy Corporation
** ditto
Mr. Ned W. Bechthold
Chairman, Payne & Dolan Inc
** ditto
Rev. James G. Gartland, S.J.,
President, Cristo Rey Jesuit High School
** ditto
Finally, Jce is right, I'll bet the majority of BOTs send their kids to other schools - as do the majority of BOTs at virtually all universities.
Pakuni---I never said he did not know who he is. I said he not know him well, which he does not. I do not think you endorse someone you not know particularily well without getting to know him. I realize most hires are probably not known well prior to the process, but time is taken to get to know him better. Did Doc take time off from the Celtics to do so?
Another MU---Those BOT's are solid because they are imprtant outside opinions. They represent other private universities and can offer sound advice. Looking at schools they represent I would not ask them for bball coach advice, but obviously they are private schools in an urban setting. Get their input on a ton of topics.
As for UP, I put him in the Doc camp. Unbelievable resume but I would say MU has other former players with equal resumes. UP is at least active in the community and probably has the ear of other former players on a more regular basis. I have less problem with Ulice because he is active in Milwaukee/Marquette community.
In my opinion the only reason Doc is on BOT is because of name recognition. No problem with that if that is his role. If his role is to be active in time of need for bball related activities I question the place on BOT. Let him him vote on nicknames or trying to close Wisconsin Ave.. Let people active in the school determine the 2nd most important hire on campus.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 11, 2008, 07:30:11 AM
NCMUfan---I am glad Rivers transferred to IU. That transfer is a joke in many ways. I do not think Doc should have been on the BOT before TC left. I think there is conflict of interests or at least a potential for bad PR when your BOT's are sending their kids to another private school. Now if MU did not have a sport that Rivers played then the excuse is built in for them. But, Georgetown not only has a ball team, they are in our conference, a private school and recruit some of the same students.
Around the country most people would say if asked the question about "Rivers to Georgetown or MU?" answer is Georgetown, who wouldn't pick Georgetown? I say a BOT's son shouldn't pick Georgetown that's who!!!!! It looks bad.
Muball--Thanks for kind words. Honestly, I now know why MU strives for sixth place in BE. Some fans completely play follow the leader.
Schoolyard--Exactly. Indications are that Doc knew TC was leaving before anyone else on BOT or adin. That is major conflict of interest.
It would be worse if he made his son come to MU and then had him be unhappy and/or unsuccessful because he really didn't want to be there.
Kids need to be empowered to make good choices.
MU vs. living the the street and dealing drugs... I think everybody would say MU is the better choice
MU vs Georgetown... Both good schools... if I were a parent, I'd be thrilled if my kids went to either school.
2002--Right on with you comments on being proud your son went to either school. Doc is visible BOT nationwide. Every bball fan knows who Doc Rivers is and what he does. That is why I think his son's choice makes Doc/MU look bad in outsiders eyes. Truthfully I have no problem with the family or their choices.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 11, 2008, 11:12:08 AM
Truthfully I have no problem with the family or their choices.
I think I'm misunderstanding you then... because that is exactly what is sounds like you are doing.
You're criticizing Doc for letting his kid go to Georgetown because Doc is on the BOT at MU.
Now, the alternative would be for him to make his kid go to MU, or step down from the BOT when Jeremiah decided to go to GU.
Neither is really a good option.
Can you clarify your position a little better? Am I missing something?
Quote from: Pakuni on May 11, 2008, 08:03:29 AM
Saying he's met the guy but doesn't know him "particularly well" is a far cry from not knowing who he is, don't you think?
I assume you meant this for someone else, I was just being a good neighbor and supplying the quote/ story.
As I state earlier, I think it's really a case of sour grapes of Jerimiah Rivers heading to IU to play for Crean. Someone needs to be punished and it is Doc Rivers in THEGYMBAR's mind.
Quote from: NCMUFan on May 11, 2008, 02:12:34 AM
Doc didn't hire Buzz, it was by committee.
Um, no. <a href="http://www.onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/creanleaves.html">It was not by committee, it was a "management decision."
Quote
At a press conference Wednesday afternoon at the Al McGuire Center, Marquette athletic director Steve Cottingham said the process has already begun.
"We're out there aggressively," Cottingham said. "We have developed a short list of names. We are not going to have a search committee. I think that the level that we're at, it is a management decision within the university."
Thank you for that clarification. So the question is, was Doc Rivers part of that management?
I believe at the presser, Fr Wild thanked those involved, including former players Doc & Ulice.
NCMUfan--I do not think Doc stepping down from BOT is a punishment. Being on the BOT is a nice thing but according to many posts it is not a big player in hiring a coach. So his stepping down would not be a big thing or a punishment.
2002...No problem with Jeremiah going to GU, IU or KU or even UCLA for that matter. That is a family decision. But, the family decision is a reflection on MU. GU and MU are similar institutions in my mind.
I have ZERO problem with Doc and his wife sending their child to school other than MU. Doc is on BOT because of ball. His son plays ball and goes to school elsewhere. If his kid was a hockey player I would have no argument. We do not have hockey. So if he went to BC I could say conflict of interest.
Doc has always been a good ambassador of MU, perhaps not on the Wade level, but positive. Kids go where they want to go. His son choosing G-town and then choosing to leave G-town is not an act of treason toward MU on Doc's part. It is empowering his child to make his own decisions. Doc is a successful coach, father and husband, a role model and ambassador for both the NBA and MU. To suggest he gets removed from the BOT because of choices his son made simply doesn't track.
Tower---I would not want Doc removed because of choices his son made, that is family issue. I would want Doc to rethink his position on the BOT and determine what is right for all parties. I think, if Jeremiah goes to IU, it is egg on MU's face. TC is the right coach at IU for the kid but not MU.
My thoughts on his role in BOT is not meant as a slap on Doc. I have a very special spot in my heart for Doc, which is personal. But, that does not influence my thoughts on BOT. Bergstom send his kid to Harvard (just a what if), I could care less. Doc's role on BOT is as much to help to ball team than anything.
GYMBAR - see the other post that rivers is not ready to commit to IU. If he doesn't, you going to take it all back and buy Celtic season tixs? :)
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 11, 2008, 12:26:32 PM
Tower---I would not want Doc removed because of choices his son made, that is family issue. I would want Doc to rethink his position on the BOT and determine what is right for all parties. I think, if Jeremiah goes to IU, it is egg on MU's face. TC is the right coach at IU for the kid but not MU.
My thoughts on his role in BOT is not meant as a slap on Doc. I have a very special spot in my heart for Doc, which is personal. But, that does not influence my thoughts on BOT. Bergstom send his kid to Harvard (just a what if), I could care less. Doc's role on BOT is as much to help to ball team than anything.
Just to clarify:
You think Doc Rivers should resign from the BOT at Marquette University because of where his son wants to attend school?
That is your position, correct?
2002Mu---I think Doc should resign from the BOT if his main role is to help the ball team in any manner. I believe he is out of touch with the school and the college game. His endorsement of Buzz publicly was a mistake. His knowledge of TC leaving ahead of everyone on the BOT/admin is not right.
As stated earlier if Doc wants to vote on Gold vs. Warriors, go ahead. But, if he wants to add his opinion on the ball team future I think he should stay away.
My stance remains the same. Jeremiah or no Jeremiah, Doc had a bigger role than he should have in the hiring of Buzz. TC is his buddy and TC told him Buzz was a good choice...thus Doc providing the ringing endorsement on a guy he does not know particularly well. His words couple with power of being on BOT influenced the braintrust of Cottingham and other BOT members.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 12, 2008, 07:39:37 AM
2002Mu---I think Doc should resign from the BOT if his main role is to help the ball team in any manner. I believe he is out of touch with the school and the college game. His endorsement of Buzz publicly was a mistake. His knowledge of TC leaving ahead of everyone on the BOT/admin is not right.
I don't think it is anyone's job on the BOT to have a role in a specific area of the University. The role of the BOT is to be the legal governing board of the University and help to set the overall strategy for the institution at large. The fact that TC contacted him ahead of his bosses isn't Rivers' fault - and except for the people involved, no one knows what happened after that.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 12, 2008, 07:39:37 AM
My stance remains the same. Jeremiah or no Jeremiah, Doc had a bigger role than he should have in the hiring of Buzz. TC is his buddy and TC told him Buzz was a good choice...thus Doc providing the ringing endorsement on a guy he does not know particularly well. His words couple with power of being on BOT influenced the braintrust of Cottingham and other BOT members.
I guess I'm just confused then... this thread started with the line:
"Does the transfer of little Rivers to IU make anyone think Doc has no place in MU bball's future?
You wrote that... but now you are saying Jerimiah doesn't matter?
My thoughts:
#1 Jerimiah has nothing to do with Doc being on the board of trustees.
#2 You state a several things as fact when they are speculative at best. You've taking a couple of broad quotes from the paper and projected what you think happened and what Doc's role was. (Doc knew before MU about Crean to IU, Doc doesn't know anything about Buzz but endorsed him because of Crean, Doc was a key influencer on get Buzz hired),
You don't know any of this as fact, yet you are calling for Doc to be removed. That's a pretty big jump based upon a couple of nnondescript quotes.
2002MU ---I think Doc should step down. My point about Jeremiah is that it does not look good for Doc or the school. They like TC as a coach at IU but not MU?
You jump to conclusions rather quickly. I am not taking broad statements and projecting my thoughts into them. I took specific quotes coupled with things I have heard from others in the know and came to my conclusion. I would think Fr. Wild thanking Doc for his help the hiring process is not taking a broad statement.
2002---support Doc all day long. If you have no problem with Doc being on the board I accept your opinion.
You're making it sound like Doc was involved Jeremiah's decision to transfer from Georgetown, when he's already said he was not in favor of him leaving.
And, Jeremiah going to Iu it doesn't make MU look bad or Doc look bad, it makes Jeremiah look bad. He comes out of this looking kind of weak, like he wasn't tough enough to handle playing in his father's shadow even if he liked the coach he'd be playing for.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 11, 2008, 08:19:06 AM
Mr. Ulice Payne, Jr.
Bus Ad '78, Law '82, President Addison-Clifton, LLC
** Another former MU player - must have conspired with Doc to hire Buzz.
Well, kinda... Doc and Ulice were more involved in the process than the other BoT members.
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/09/more-buzz-about-buzz.aspx
bma---Please let me clarify my thoughts. Firstly, Jeremiah transferring to IU or anywhere else is not my main issue. That is a family issue and the Rivers should handle how it fits their family best. My point is simple, Doc had a say in the hiring of Buzz. I do not think that he put the time needed into his endorsement. From what I have heard directly and then further read in paper, Doc endorsed Buzz based on his respecting TC's opinion.
After everything has evolved after TC departure would you want your son playing for someone with TC's character? If you were BOT would you have been pissed off on how TC departed? Would you have taken the easy route and endorsed TC's guy?
I think Doc probably had no idea that his endorsement would carry the weight it did. This hire was much tighter group then previous hires and Doc was a so-called expert. He played ball at MU in the 1980's. Someone probably called Doc and he said what he knew about Buzz and the braintrust ran with it.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 11, 2008, 08:03:29 AM
Saying he's met the guy but doesn't know him "particularly well" is a far cry from not knowing who he is, don't you think?
Far cry? Lol.
I wrote "he doesn't really know who Buzz is". The Associated Press writer wrote "doesn't know Williams particularly well". Doc is quoted as saying "I knew him through Tom" (which would indicate acquaintance relationship in most cases).
You're just picking at little things. I'm not sure why your fervent support of Williams has to include mindless nuance like this.
Not only are the three statements in the same ballpark, they're in the same dugout.
Quote from: nola03 on May 12, 2008, 11:09:24 AM
You're just picking at little things. I'm not sure why your fervent support of Williams has to include mindless nuance like this.
Sigh ...
Please list some examples of my "fervent" support for Buzz.
Thanks.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 11, 2008, 11:12:08 AM
his son's choice makes Doc/MU look bad in outsiders eyes.
Why are you getting so worked up about Jeremiah Rivers? If he was at MU (an impossibility anyway), he wouldn't get more minutes than a healthy Cubillan. Crean can have this one.
i agree with the poster. doc's allegiance went to tom crean when it came down to it. that is a problem for someone on the board. i KNOW there are board members who are unhappy with him about that.
if his son does end up going to IU, i agree that it will be a slap in the face to MU. crean didn't get him at MU, but now that 'its indiana' he does get him? fishy.
Who really cares where Doc's son transfers to. It is not like he could have transferred to MU (BEast rules don't allow it). It seems like the whiners on this site are more worried about what TC does at IU than they are about the Warriors. Let it go. I could care less how well TC does at IU - it is irrelevant.
Cooby---Why I am worked is simple. Are all of the BOT's, especially the ones with basketball ties fully on board with their goals. To hire a D1 coach is a major hire, especially for a school like MU that needs the revenue. I think that when the time arose for Doc to use his ball knowledge and help MU he did not have the time needed to really help.
I would think that Doc, being TC's friend, knew that TC had been trying to get IU job since Sampson was let go. MU got caught with no plan to replace TC and it showed by how the search was conducted. I am sure Doc loves and respects MU. But, being coach of the Celtics, having son play elswhere probably trumps his love for MU.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 07:27:16 AM
I would think that Doc, being TC's friend, knew that TC had been trying to get IU job since Sampson was let go.
There is no evidence to suggest that TC was looking at IU since Sampson was let go, and there is no evidence to suggest that even if he was, that Doc knew about it.
Your just pulling this stuff out of thin air.
Quote from: jce on May 13, 2008, 08:01:02 AM
There is no evidence to suggest that TC was looking at IU since Sampson was let go, and there is no evidence to suggest that even if he was, that Doc knew about it.
Your just pulling this stuff out of thin air.
Um, yes there was...
---Celtics coach Doc Rivers, a former Marquette star who is now on the school's board of trustees, said he advised basketball coach Tom Crean "to go with his heart" before he decided to leave Marquette to coach at Indiana. "Obviously, I don't love it," Rivers said. "But Tom's been fantastic. He is a very close friend. I talked to him [recently]. It's a tough loss for us and a great gain for Indiana."
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/04/03/taking_bull_by_horns_in_chicago_t_shirt_flap/
Quote from: Litehouse on May 13, 2008, 08:20:48 AM
Um, yes there was...
---Celtics coach Doc Rivers, a former Marquette star who is now on the school's board of trustees, said he advised basketball coach Tom Crean "to go with his heart" before he decided to leave Marquette to coach at Indiana. "Obviously, I don't love it," Rivers said. "But Tom's been fantastic. He is a very close friend. I talked to him [recently]. It's a tough loss for us and a great gain for Indiana."
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/04/03/taking_bull_by_horns_in_chicago_t_shirt_flap/
Um, read what I wrote again...
There is nothing suggesting in your link that TC was looking at IU when Sampson was let go, and that Doc knew about it *at that time.* Clearly he knew about it earlier than most everyone else, but nothing suggests that he was holding some sort of secret for days or weeks.
Again, conflict of interest. I would think being a BOT would trump being a close friend. Not many people in management steer people that have been fantastic out the door. Doc needed to step aside from TC at the time of TC telling him about IU. COMPLETE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 08:36:11 AM
Again, conflict of interest. I would think being a BOT would trump being a close friend. Not many people in management steer people that have been fantastic out the door. Doc needed to step aside from TC at the time of TC telling him about IU. COMPLETE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
The problem is you don't understand the definition of conflict of interest. A conflict of interest is when you have a competing professional or personal interests. It is not having a friend at another unverisity. Everyone has that.
So, what exactly is Doc's personal or professional interest in Crean at IU? Don't say his son because he already said he's not in favor of it and the transfer is not a done deal.
Point is their is no conflict of interest. You are using the term incorrectly.
*at that time* wasn't there the first time. But I agree with you, we obviously have no idea when Crean first started thinking about the job. All we know is that Doc knew Crean was offered the job before anyone else from MU knew, whether it was 1 day or 3 days, who knows. I still think the fact he knew and didn't tell anyone raises some serious questions, and I hope Doc had to answer those questions to the other BoT members.
As an aside, does anyone know more about Crean apparently coming to MU to apologize to Fr. Wild? If true, that would go a long way for me to feeling more settled about the whole situation.
you guys are right, any board member who is a friend of the coach and goes to practices and has occasional phone coversations with him/her should be fired. That goes for any coach, if you are on the board and have the women's v-ball coach over for dinner then you should not only be stripped of your position you should have your name erased from all the anals of MU history. Once i saw a board member on campus walking next to the golf coach so i ran up and tasered her in the throat! Yeah that's what i'm talking about! Adults who work closely together aren't allowed to confide in each other!
Don't any of you have freinds at your work place? I love how people have a double standard for anyone who works at MU.
Conflict of interest is Doc should put MU's best interest ahead of everything. If TC is so fantastic Doc should fight to keep him at MU.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 08:36:11 AM
Again, conflict of interest. I would think being a BOT would trump being a close friend. Not many people in management steer people that have been fantastic out the door. Doc needed to step aside from TC at the time of TC telling him about IU. COMPLETE CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
It is not a conflict of interest unless you can show that Doc somehow benefited from this. If TC called Doc in confidence and sought his professional advice, and Doc told him to go with his heart, Doc in no way benefits. If Doc was holding this secret for weeks, it may be a breach of fiduciary responsibility, but knowing a day or two before everyone else doesn't even rise to that level - not even close.
Quote from: jce on May 13, 2008, 08:26:51 AM
Um, read what I wrote again...
There is nothing suggesting in your link that TC was looking at IU when Sampson was let go, and that Doc knew about it *at that time.* Clearly he knew about it earlier than most everyone else, but nothing suggests that he was holding some sort of secret for days or weeks.
+1
Honestly guys, you are treating this like the Kennedy conspiracy.
We don't know the time line on how/when Crean talked to Doc. You guys are taking some brief and broad comments made by Doc and trying to establish some sort of conspiracy that Doc screwed MU.
I don't know what happened. Doc has been a good rep for MU in the past. I'm not willing to jump to a conclusion that he did something wrong just because he has some quotes about Crean.
Seriously guys, take a breath.
Not everything about Tom Crean is evil, and not everything/everybody he talks to is evil.
Rawdog---Double standard? MU basketball is major revenue maker for MU and TC was the driving force behind that machine, like it or not. Doc and the BOT make financial decisions on behalf of the school all the time. No decision is bigger than fate of basketball team.
This is not a friend/ co-worker situation. Doc has position of authority and a responsibilty to use that power in MU's interest. I would never want one of my key employee's helping out another co-worker on making a career change. If one did he/she would be fired or demoted on the spot.
Quote from: Litehouse on May 13, 2008, 08:45:16 AM
*at that time* wasn't there the first time. But I agree with you, we obviously have no idea when Crean first started thinking about the job. All we know is that Doc knew Crean was offered the job before anyone else from MU knew, whether it was 1 day or 3 days, who knows. I still think the fact he knew and didn't tell anyone raises some serious questions, and I hope Doc had to answer those questions to the other BoT members.
To be honest, I think THEGYMBAR is the only one who really cares. I doubt the other members of the BOT have given it more of a passing thought.
jce---YOU ARE 100% CORRECT. THat is why Buzz Williams was hired after very short time. They know they are never questioned. Keep playing follow the leader.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 08:50:23 AM
I would never want one of my key employee's helping out another co-worker on making a career change.
I'm not sure saying "Go with your heart" is really helping him make a career change. It's a pretty ambiguous thing to say.
Also, this conversation could have been within hours of Crean committing to IU, so there is no way to establish that Doc withheld information from MU.
2002MUalum---Doc saying "Tom we do not want you to leave because you have been fantastic" is what someone representing the school's best interest says. Someone that values friendship or really does not care says "go with your heart"
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 08:50:23 AM
I would never want one of my key employee's helping out another co-worker on making a career change. If one did he/she would be fired or demoted on the spot.
I wouldn't mind one bit. In fact, I have had bosses that have helped to guide me on potential job changes. I wouldn't be where I am without that help.
I've been freinds with people in places of athority and i've talked to them about leaving before off the reccord. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm sorry if you are socially awkward enough that you are never friends with people in athority, but this isn't an unusual thing. Not even close, he had a friend he talked to him like a friend.
Further more, You don't know what he said, i'm sure their discussion was more than one sentence. How many people need to disagree with you for you to admit that you have no idea what you are talking about? You are oppereating on conjecture. For all you know Doc could very well have spent the vast majority of the call listing all the reasons to stay and then at the end said 'but, you do have to go with your heart.'
So unless you have the exact time of the call and a tape of it get over your own guess work, you do this in every post and then have respond to the 100 people who see through it.
And please don't respond with some press clipping. Those don't tell whole stories and it's pathetic how much you read into them.
Rawdog and jce---I am talking about employees that are KEY employees and that put money in the pockets of everyone involved. Doc wants to give advice to a 2nd assistant coach, big deal. He was given advice to the meal ticket.
So with all due respect, unless you two are paying the freight for all of your coworkers it is a very poor comparison. Top people are hard to replace...middle of the road people are replaced or in some cases not even replaced.
I own a company and if certain employees asked for career advice it would be different to each one. A key employee I would say I want you to stay. A middle of the road guy I might encourage to leave.
Question---TC key MU employee or one of five history teachers?
Quote from: RawdogDX on May 13, 2008, 09:08:37 AM
I've been freinds with people in places of athority and i've talked to them about leaving before off the reccord. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm sorry if you are socially awkward enough that you are never friends with people in athority, but this isn't an unusual thing. Not even close, he had a friend he talked to him like a friend.
Further more, You don't know what he said, i'm sure their discussion was more than one sentence. How many people need to disagree with you for you to admit that you have no idea what you are talking about? You are oppereating on conjecture. For all you know Doc could very well have spent the vast majority of the call listing all the reasons to stay and then at the end said 'but, you do have to go with your heart.'
So unless you have the exact time of the call and a tape of it get over your own guess work, you do this in every post and then have respond to the 100 people who see through it.
And please don't respond with some press clipping. Those don't tell whole stories and it's pathetic how much you read into them.
Agree 100%
You can't take a 3 sentence quote and pretend like that is EXACTLY what happened. (again, speculation and conjecture based upon a few brief quotes)
He might have pleaded with Crean for an hour... but it wouldn't look very good if a member of the BOT (after a coaching change was announced) came out in the media and said "I pleaded with him to stay for hours"... it makes MU look weak.
I'm sure most people are disappointed that Crean left, but realize that MU is a PROGRAM and it will survive.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Rawdog and jce---I am talking about employees that are KEY employees and that put money in the pockets of everyone involved. Doc wants to give advice to a 2nd assistant coach, big deal. He was given advice to the meal ticket.
I still wouldn't mind. An organization is better off in the long run with that type of open atmosphere.
SO you would give advice based completely on what you think is best for you? Sounds like you must be a great boss. Your response is completely about what you want when your friend is asking your opinion about a choice that vastly effects their future and family?
And as i said before, he probably did tell him he wanted him to stay, (i'd bet $ on it) but you don't know that because you are starting a three page thread off of a few sentence press clipping. What would you rather that press clipping said? "I begged and pleaded with him to stay but in the end he still wanted to ditch this $h!t hole."
If you 'advise' your employee's to stay (because you want to make $ off them) and they leave, I'm guessing you'd tell a reporter that you told them to follow their heart and do what's best for themselves. You wouldn't tell the reporter that you were on your hands and knees whipping yourself to get them to stay. Welcome to the world of PR.
GYMBAR is doing a poor job of explaining his position, but I believe he has a point.
If the CEO of a company confided to a member of that company's Board of Directors that he has been contacted about another position, it is the responsibility of that board member to report it to the rest of the board. Crean was, in effect, the CEO of Marquette basketball.
I will disagree that Crean was the "meal ticket" as GYMBAR claims. He was feeding at the trough, but he was no meal ticket.
Rawdog---A CEO, Board of Director or company is supposed to do what is best for the organization. You have a responsibility to employees, shareholders or other partners. It is not what is best for you, but what is best for the organization. Fortunately I am not in position to need PR in the press for employee relations.
FYI---If you had a key employee you wanted to keep it would also be that you believe his current position is better opportunity than the new position. TC's ego aside MU is a better opportunity because he probably never would be fired. IU could fire him.
Harvey---Thanks for restating my position. Actually MU ball is the meal ticket, ask Terri Mitchell. The mens ball team pays for every other sport. Without football generating revenue it is THE MEAL TICKET.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 08:50:23 AM
This is not a friend/ co-worker situation. Doc has position of authority and a responsibilty to use that power in MU's interest. I would never want one of my key employee's helping out another co-worker on making a career change. If one did he/she would be fired or demoted on the spot.
Doc Rivers is not an employee, key or otherwise, of Marquette University. If anything, he's the administration's boss (technically, though not likely practically), not the other way around.
Quote from: HarveysWallbangers on May 13, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
If the CEO of a company confided to a member of that company's Board of Directors that he has been contacted about another position, it is the responsibility of that board member to report it to the rest of the board.
What is you basis for that claim?
Quote from: HarveysWallbangers on May 13, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
GYMBAR is doing a poor job of explaining his position, but I believe he has a point.
If the CEO of a company confided to a member of that company's Board of Directors that he has been contacted about another position, it is the responsibility of that board member to report it to the rest of the board. Crean was, in effect, the CEO of Marquette basketball.
I will disagree that Crean was the "meal ticket" as GYMBAR claims. He was feeding at the trough, but he was no meal ticket.
I see what your point is... but there is no way knowing how long Doc knew before Crean accepted. It might have been 24hrs or less... and it certainly isn't weeks.
2002MUalum, weeks, days, hours or minutes...who cares? If Doc and BOT wanted TC they fight like IU did to get him. They never knew they were in fight, except for Doc Rivers. IU gave TC a time deadline and MU had no chance to fight for THEIR man.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 11:01:56 AM
2002MUalum, weeks, days, hours or minutes...who cares? If Doc and BOT wanted TC they fight like IU did to get him. They never knew they were in fight, except for Doc Rivers. IU gave TC a time deadline and MU had no chance to fight for THEIR man.
I see what you are getting at... but I really think you're grasping at straws. First, you brought up Jerimiah, then you brought up Doc's relationship with Crean, now it's all about the timing.
I mean, Doc seems to have a good rep at MU (for many years)... and I'm not sure that this situation really makes him the villain that you are making him out to be.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 11:01:56 AM
2002MUalum, weeks, days, hours or minutes...who cares? If Doc and BOT wanted TC they fight like IU did to get him. They never knew they were in fight, except for Doc Rivers. IU gave TC a time deadline and MU had no chance to fight for THEIR man.
This is my biggest problem with this issue, the BoT is entrusted to look out for the best interests of the university.
IF MU wanted to keep Crean, they could have done something about it if they knew earlier, instead of being caught completely off guard. MU could have counter-offerred or done more to look out for their best interests.
However, if MU didn't want to keep Crean at that price and was fine letting him walk for $2.3M, then that's another story.
Quote from: Litehouse on May 13, 2008, 11:18:46 AM
This is my biggest problem with this issue, the BoT is entrusted to look out for the best interests of the university. IF MU wanted to keep Crean, they could have done something about it if they knew earlier, instead of being caught completely off guard. MU could have counter-offerred or done more to look out for their best interests.
However, if MU didn't want to keep Crean at that price and was fine letting him walk for $2.3M, then that's another story.
I would agree if a week went by... but there is no way to know.
It could have been a couple of hours.
Hell, Crean could've talked to Doc minutes before he called Cottingham/Wild.
No way to know what the timing was... so no way to know how much responsibility Doc has.
Also, let's play this out:
If Crean asked Doc for advice in confidence... and then Doc tells the board... and then the board tries to get Crean to stay...
Would Crean want to stay after he has been betrayed by a friend on the board? Crean didn't tell MU before he accepted the position because it's obvious he didn't want a counter-offer... and now Doc would be the one responsible creating a bidding/negotiation situation.
Is that really going to make Crean want to come back to MU?
Probably not.
2002MUalum....Again the responsibility of being a Trustee trumps an act of confidence. If you want to be an advisor to a friend do not be a Trustee.
Quote from: HarveysWallbangers on May 13, 2008, 10:24:01 AM
GYMBAR is doing a poor job of explaining his position, but I believe he has a point.
If the CEO of a company confided to a member of that company's Board of Directors that he has been contacted about another position, it is the responsibility of that board member to report it to the rest of the board. Crean was, in effect, the CEO of Marquette basketball.
I will disagree that Crean was the "meal ticket" as GYMBAR claims. He was feeding at the trough, but he was no meal ticket.
Again, show me the proof that Doc new in advance about Crean's move to IU?
wow. I thought that I got dumber from reading some of the cubs/brewers pissing match, but this thread definately has lowered my braincell count.
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 11:36:50 AM
2002MUalum....Again the responsibility of being a Trustee trumps an act of confidence. If you want to be an advisor to a friend do not be a Trustee.
If this is how the conversation went, I have no problem:
TC: Hey Doc, can I talk to you about something in confidence?
Doc: Sure...go ahead.
TC: Well, I have been offered the job at IU...(blah, blah, blah)
Doc: Well, go with your heart. When are you going to let people know? Because I am on the BOT
TC: As soon as I get the official offer, I will talk to Cottingham and Wild
Doc: No problem
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 13, 2008, 12:47:09 PM
wow. I thought that I got dumber from reading some of the cubs/brewers pissing match, but this thread definately has lowered my braincell count.
So you're saying it can go lower? ;D
Quote from: 4everwarriors on May 13, 2008, 02:03:26 PM
So you're saying it can go lower? ;D
http://www.instantrimshot.com/ (http://www.instantrimshot.com/)
Cool, we can insert the button :)
http://www.instantrimshot.com/rimshot.swf
Quote from: THEGYMBAR on May 13, 2008, 11:36:50 AM
2002MUalum....Again the responsibility of being a Trustee trumps an act of confidence. If you want to be an advisor to a friend do not be a Trustee.
I guess that's fair... but you implied that if Doc had told the board that they could have tried to get Crean to stay.
I'd argue that Doc telling the board would've pushed Crean further away.
In any case, this debate has run it's course, and we can agree to disagree.
Best of luck to Doc in Boston, best of luck to Crean at IU.