So, has anything that you have seen or heard this summer changed your opinion?
I still think the starters will be Ben, David, Kam, Chase, Stevie. I think Shaka stays with experienced starters.
Trey, Zaide, Damarius, Caedin, Royce, in that order, is my best guess 6-10. Again, experience first.
I think there will be lots of experimentation in the OC portion.
I think Owens has the best chance among the new guys to leapfrog up the chain. Perhaps not to starter, but to 6th man who can play and guard lots of positions.
I doubt MU will suddenly run clear outs/post ups for Hamilton. 5 out motion.
I fervently hope that MU can get back to full court pressure. I missed that last season when the injuries kicked in and MU didn't have the numbers to do it regularly.
I do not expect Sean to play. It is not in his interest to rush back. The exception being a rash of injuries to others and he is judged to be fully healed. Heal fully, young man.
I believe MU will continue to be at or near the top of the Big East. Replacing 2 NBA players is always a challenge. Good programs do it all the time. I think there are players ready to step in, step up, step forward. As usual (but not toward the Lions), I am optimistic.
Tower, I think your post sums up my thoughts as well. Hopefully that doesn't ruin your credibility;)
ahhhhh,sh...t ;D
Quote from: tower912 on September 16, 2024, 07:07:09 AM
So, has anything that you have seen or heard this summer changed your opinion?
I still think the starters will be Ben, David, Kam, Chase, Stevie. I think Shaka stays with experienced starters.
Trey, Zaide, Damarius, Caedin, Royce, in that order, is my best guess 6-10. Again, experience first.
I think there will be lots of experimentation in the OC portion.
I think Owens has the best chance among the new guys to leapfrog up the chain. Perhaps not to starter, but to 6th man who can play and guard lots of positions.
I doubt MU will suddenly run clear outs/post ups for Hamilton. 5 out motion.
I fervently hope that MU can get back to full court pressure. I missed that last season when the injuries kicked in and MU didn't have the numbers to do it regularly.
I do not expect Sean to play. It is not in his interest to rush back. The exception being a rash of injuries to others and he is judged to be fully healed. Heal fully, young man.
I believe MU will continue to be at or near the top of the Big East. Replacing 2 NBA players is always a challenge. Good programs do it all the time. I think there are players ready to step in, step up, step forward. As usual (but not toward the Lions), I am optimistic.
I agree with this analysis
Double crap.
OK, let's try this to stir it up. Barring injuries, Joplin, Gold, Mitchell and Kam will combine for 110 minutes per game.
Fourthed.
Gold and Joplin together will make Shaka change his defense. Oso and Prosper together were very quick.
We lost some quickness when Prosper went pro. Now with Oso gone we have lost more quickness.
I think Gold and Joplin will start, but we may see them substituted out to allow more pressing defense.
If foul trouble finds BG, which it often does, we may see more of Zaide (with a small lineup) or Royce/Caedin to mix it up.
Quote from: tower912 on September 16, 2024, 08:21:21 AM
Double crap.
OK, let's try this to stir it up. Barring injuries, Joplin, Gold, Mitchell and Kam will combine for 110 minutes per game.
Agree with your main post, seems pretty straight forward this season.
Not as bullish as most on the overall success for a few reasons, but mainly that Marquette will be missing a generational pg that made everything work for the past few years and a 5 that was great in Shaka's system on both ends of the court.
I just think that's harder than expected to replace, and it won't be evident until the ball is tipped.
Excited to see how Shaka handles ball handling duties in the post TyKo era, and to see what happens with all the different types of skillsets at the 5.
That said, can't wait for Shaka to prove to me yet again that he can indeed do it all. I've said before though, this was always supposed to be a bit of a down year, so if it's not then props to coach.
Additionally, I absolutely love Kam and Stewie so it would be amazing to see Kam be an All American do it all PG/SG and to see that backcourt flourish and get accolades, those two deserve it.
As for stirring up the pot-
David Joplin, Ben Gold, and Chase Ross.
We all want them to succeed, but Ben has to hit shots and Chase has to bring to the games more of the things that we hear he does at practice, especially offensively.
IMO Joplin might be the xfactor for the season. If he is what coach said he can be- one of the leading scorers in the BE- then we will be cooking again. If he is what he was in the last game of last season we are probably in trouble. If he's somewhere in between, then he might get passed up somewhere along the way.
No pressure Jop!
This is a 12 win team
Quote from: Uncle Rico on September 16, 2024, 09:28:53 AM
This is a 12 win team
As long as four are in the BET, and six are in the NCAA, that's fine with me.
That's a good pulse on the team. Experienced squad with the starters all having multiple years played with each other.
Think Sean is eager to play and plays sooner than expected. Though, I wish he redshirted. Easy for me to say.
Little concerned at the PG and C spot. Think both Kam and Gold are a little out of position there.
Led by the top true senior in the country
https://x.com/CBKReport/status/1834742442391683096?t=J77lp1ZMIZkvl1zsgwaXhA&s=19
We have yet to see an extended run with a 5-out system. If BG can keep defenses honest and drag their C further out, we all know how crafty Kam is around the rim.
Been working on these for every Big East team. Here's my Marquette expectation:
G - Kam Jones
G - Stevie Mitchell
G - Chase Ross
F - David Joplin
F - Ben Gold
B1 - Damarius Owens
B2 - Tre Norman
B3 - Zaide Lowery
B4 - Caedin Hamilton
Owens is my bet for first off the bench. I think Tre & Zaide will be interchangeable based on situation and need. Hamilton will likely only be at the 5, but replace Jop or Ben as both of them can step out to play on the wing (as Ben did last year with Oso).
Parham & Amadou likely only get spot minutes. I just don't think there's a lot of room in the rotation for them. Sean is the wildcard. I doubt we see him this year unless two things happen. First, he recovers faster than I've heard is expected. Second, the rotation above isn't able to man the point effectively or injuries force him back in.
Josh Clark I doubt we see until next year.
Quote from: CountryRoads on September 16, 2024, 09:56:21 AM
That's a good pulse on the team. Experienced squad with the starters all having multiple years played with each other.
Think Sean is eager to play and plays sooner than expected. Though, I wish he redshirted. Easy for me to say.
Little concerned at the PG and C spot. Think both Kam and Gold are a little out of position there.
Kam proving he can play PG will help his NBA prospects.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on September 16, 2024, 10:38:47 AM
Kam proving he can play PG will help his NBA prospects.
I agree with this analysis
I agree with brew and tower, who basically agree with each other.
And I have little reason to believe we won't be pretty darn good this season.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 16, 2024, 10:02:33 AM
Led by the top true senior in the country
https://x.com/CBKReport/status/1834742442391683096?t=J77lp1ZMIZkvl1zsgwaXhA&s=19
Dawson Garcia is still playing in college?
Quote from: Spotcheck Billy on September 16, 2024, 11:16:02 AM
Dawson Garcia is still playing in college?
Yep. I mean its not that egregious of a case. His freshman year was the last year of Wojo and were in the fourth year of Shaka so its only his fifth year.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on September 16, 2024, 11:42:16 AM
Yep. I mean its not that egregious of a case. His freshman year was the last year of Wojo and were in the fourth year of Shaka so its only his fifth year.
No, but calling him a "true" senior is, as he is a 5th year player because he was in the class before Kam's.
1) Kam, Stevie, Chase, Jop, and Ben are starters at the beginning of the year.
2) Damarius Owens is 6th man and challenges for a starting spot by mid year.
3) Tre, Zaide, Caedin, and Royce compete for rotation minutes. Whoever ends up 9th man get 8-10 mpg. 10th man gets 5-8 mpg.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 16, 2024, 11:51:10 AM
No, but calling him a "true" senior is, as he is a 5th year player because he was in the class before Kam's.
Oh agreed. I think the criteria for the list is questionable. Seems limit the criteria may be best 4th and 5th year seniors
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 16, 2024, 11:51:10 AM
No, but calling him a "true" senior is, as he is a 5th year player because he was in the class before Kam's.
Yeah, the "true" modifier is typically used for freshmen and is intended to differentiate someone who really is in his first year of college (i.e., a "true freshman") from someone who is using his first year of athletic eligibility even though he's been on campus for more than a year (i.e., redshirts). Given that typical use, it seems odd to describe a fifth-year senior as a "true senior." It's completely opposite of the normal usage.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on September 16, 2024, 11:54:56 AM
1) Kam, Stevie, Chase, Jop, and Ben are starters at the beginning of the year.
2) Damarius Owens is 6th man and challenges for a starting spot by mid year.
3) Tre, Zaide, Caedin, and Royce compete for rotation minutes. Whoever ends up 9th man get 8-10 mpg. 10th man gets 5-8 mpg.
Do you envision a scenario where Zaide/Tre become 6th man?
Quote from: MUbiz on September 16, 2024, 12:52:52 PM
Do you envision a scenario where Zaide/Tre become 6th man?
You mean like...fuse them together?
Quote from: MUbiz on September 16, 2024, 12:52:52 PM
Do you envision a scenario where Zaide/Tre become 6th man?
Based on the open practice and reports out of practice, Owens has a big leg up.
Tre and Zaide are making strides, but I see them competing with Caedin and Royce for spots 7-10. Caedin probably has the surest role due to positional needs (backup C).
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 16, 2024, 10:26:11 AM
Been working on these for every Big East team. Here's my Marquette expectation:
G - Kam Jones
G - Stevie Mitchell
G - Chase Ross
F - David Joplin
F - Ben Gold
B1 - Damarius Owens
B2 - Tre Norman
B3 - Zaide Lowery
B4 - Caedin Hamilton
Owens is my bet for first off the bench. I think Tre & Zaide will be interchangeable based on situation and need. Hamilton will likely only be at the 5, but replace Jop or Ben as both of them can step out to play on the wing (as Ben did last year with Oso).
Parham & Amadou likely only get spot minutes. I just don't think there's a lot of room in the rotation for them. Sean is the wildcard. I doubt we see him this year unless two things happen. First, he recovers faster than I've heard is expected. Second, the rotation above isn't able to man the point effectively or injuries force him back in.
Josh Clark I doubt we see until next year.
Agreed on all of this other than I'd put Royce above Caedin. Agreed that Tre and Zaide will depend on matchup and situation.
I get you, wades, but somebody has to back up the 5. I am not sure that is Royce.
Quote from: tower912 on September 16, 2024, 02:40:14 PM
I get you, wades, but somebody has to back up the 5. I am not sure that is Royce.
I think we're a 5 out team this year. Gold/Parham/Jop cover the minutes at the 5. Caedin will probably get situational spot minutes, but I don't think he'll get regular rotation minutes.
Royce said when he signed the expectation was for him to play the same "trigger" spot that Oso played, which is the 5.
Agree I think he plays before Hamilton by the end of the year.
Quote from: JTJ3 on September 16, 2024, 04:17:40 PM
Royce said when he signed the expectation was for him to play the same "trigger" spot that Oso played, which is the 5.
Agree I think he plays before Hamilton by the end of the year.
Parham can play both the trigger role or spot up shooter. In Dodds' interviews, a couple players have praised Royce's shooting.
I think rotation spots 7-10 are going to be very competitive. It'll be interesting to see how those minutes are dispersed.
Quote from: tower912 on September 16, 2024, 02:40:14 PM
I get you, wades, but somebody has to back up the 5. I am not sure that is Royce.
Might be Ramsey, unless he's playing PG
Isn't Ramsey in charge of NIL? Keeping debt to a minimum.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 16, 2024, 02:46:06 PM
I think we're a 5 out team this year. Gold/Parham/Jop cover the minutes at the 5. Caedin will probably get situational spot minutes, but I don't think he'll get regular rotation minutes.
Every indication is Caedin will be the primary backup at the five. I think Parham has better long term upside, but this year I think Caedin is ahead in the depth chart.
It's too late at night to look up the stats but Ben needs to be able to play D without fouls. To me, it's a source of worry. I'm hoping the hype about Cardin is not puffery.
Caedin.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on September 16, 2024, 10:32:35 PM
It's too late at night to look up the stats but Ben needs to be able to play D without fouls. To me, it's a source of worry. I'm hoping the hype about Cardin is not puffery.
It's not puffery, and when Cardin and Ramsey are on the floor at the same time, I guarantee Marquette is unstoppable.
For me the biggest X factors for this season are Ben Gold stepping up as a leader and being a consistent and reliable option on offense, Caedin being a reliable backup for 15 min a game and Owens potential to be an impact player off the bench.
I think Kam, Stevie and Jop will do their thing but even better this year. Kam will be an all American. I expect incremental improvement for the Sophs.
If the X factors (Ben, Caedin, and Owens) do their thing this team should be really good. I'm just not sure about any of them.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 17, 2024, 08:52:04 AM
For me the biggest X factors for this season are Ben Gold stepping up as a leader and being a consistent and reliable option on offense, Caedin being a reliable backup for 15 min a game and Owens potential to be an impact player off the bench.
I think Kam, Stevie and Jop will do their thing but even better this year. Kam will be an all American. I expect incremental improvement for the Sophs.
If the X factors (Ben, Caedin, and Owens) do their thing this team should be really good. I'm just not sure about any of them.
A hopefully healthy chase is key too.
Like you said, with Kam, Stevie and Jop(for better or worse on him) we have a pretty good baseline of expectation.
I think it's key that at least 1 of Chase and Benny take a leap to legitmate starter. Hopefully both.
Then also hope one of Tre or Zaide really have a soph bump.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on September 17, 2024, 09:10:27 AM
A hopefully healthy chase is key too.
Like you said, with Kam, Stevie and Jop(for better or worse on him) we have a pretty good baseline of expectation.
I think it's key that at least 1 of Chase and Benny take a leap to legitmate starter. Hopefully both.
Then also hope one of Tre or Zaide really have a soph bump.
Good point. Ross, like Gold needs to be relied upon for consistency.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 17, 2024, 11:42:53 AM
Good point. Ross, like Gold needs to be relied upon for consistency.
If any player is to take the "big step" - the kind that Oso and TK took in 2022-23 to have a profound impact on the program - I'm thinking that Chase is the best candidate.
To be a really good team again, we need Ross to play consistently well IMHO.
Tre seems to think DO will be playing PG this year: https://247sports.com/college/marquette/article/our-interview-series-continues-soph-pg-tre-norman-comments-about-his-summer-workouts-and-his-new-teammates-236406514/
That's interesting both because it would be awesome to throw a 6-8 athlete on Hassan Diarra and because it suggests we won't be seaming Sean for awhile.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on September 17, 2024, 01:17:41 PM
Tre seems to think DO will be playing PG this year: https://247sports.com/college/marquette/article/our-interview-series-continues-soph-pg-tre-norman-comments-about-his-summer-workouts-and-his-new-teammates-236406514/
That's interesting both because it would be awesome to throw a 6-8 athlete on Hassan Diarra and because it suggests we won't be seaming Sean for awhile.
I think if we're using a lengthy athlete on lead guards it'll be someone like Zaide, who did that a bit last year. From what I've seen, both Owens and Parham will be ready to contribute offensively, but have a ways to go defensively.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on September 17, 2024, 01:17:41 PM
Tre seems to think DO will be playing PG this year: https://247sports.com/college/marquette/article/our-interview-series-continues-soph-pg-tre-norman-comments-about-his-summer-workouts-and-his-new-teammates-236406514/
That's interesting both because it would be awesome to throw a 6-8 athlete on Hassan Diarra and because it suggests we won't be seaming Sean for awhile.
It's starting to seem that Shaka wants all hands on PG this year.
Quote from: wadesworld on September 17, 2024, 01:40:16 PM
I think if we're using a lengthy athlete on lead guards it'll be someone like Zaide, who did that a bit last year. From what I've seen, both Owens and Parham will be ready to contribute offensively, but have a ways to go defensively.
Owens will contribute more than zaide in every way.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 17, 2024, 08:52:04 AM
For me the biggest X factors for this season are Ben Gold stepping up as a leader and being a consistent and reliable option on offense, Caedin being a reliable backup for 15 min a game and Owens potential to be an impact player off the bench.
+1
Quote from: jfp61 on September 17, 2024, 02:34:21 PM
Owens will contribute more than zaide in every way.
He'll most likely play more. But Zaide will be the much better defensive player.
If Owens can defend to Shaka's standards, he will play more. Having a versatile 6'8 player is a great asset. Sub in for Chase with the rest of the starters, and MU is suddenly almost big. Ben, Owens, Chase, Zaide, Kam and you have a whole lot of speed and long arms. Owens in the old OMax role as the point of the press.
I can see a whole lot of options going forward. Don't get me started on the 25-26 combinations. But can he defend on day one?
Quote from: jfp61 on September 17, 2024, 02:34:21 PM
Owens will contribute more than zaide in every way.
Calling it now, Zaide is my breakout prediction for this season. He had a very solid all around freshman season and the ceiling is the limit with his athletic ability.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on September 17, 2024, 03:47:09 PM
Calling it now, Zaide is my breakout prediction for this season. He had a very solid all around freshman season and the ceiling is the limit with his athletic ability.
Solid? He played like 10 minutes a game. It was fine and showed promise, but let's not overstate it here.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 17, 2024, 03:50:13 PM
Solid? He played like 10 minutes a game. It was fine and showed promise, but let's not overstate it here.
Sorry for the extreme hyperbole.
Quote from: tower912 on September 17, 2024, 03:08:28 PM
If Owens can defend to Shaka's standards, he will play more. Having a versatile 6'8 player is a great asset. Sub in for Chase with the rest of the starters, and MU is suddenly almost big. Ben, Owens, Chase, Zaide, Kam and you have a whole lot of speed and long arms. Owens in the old OMax role as the point of the press.
I can see a whole lot of options going forward. Don't get me started on the 25-26 combinations. But can he defend on day one?
25-26 already has me insanely excited. I'm still nervous about this year with the lack of a clear PG role (and the idea of moving Kam into that rather than letting him run free on scoring).
But there's a lot of great pieces that will be fun to watch no matter what. I need a writeup of the scrimmage on Oct 5 or somethign to get a better sense of this team.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on September 17, 2024, 05:01:01 PM
25-26 already has me insanely excited. I'm still nervous about this year with the lack of a clear PG role (and the idea of moving Kam into that rather than letting him run free on scoring).
But there's a lot of great pieces that will be fun to watch no matter what. I need a writeup of the scrimmage on Oct 5 or somethign to get a better sense of this team.
I don't think that Kam would be able to "run free on scoring" this year...not without Tyler and Oso. Even if Sean Jones comes back, Kam is likely going to more successful with the ball in his hands more often, creating for himself (and others).
100% agree on sean.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on September 17, 2024, 01:17:41 PM
Tre seems to think DO will be playing PG this year: https://247sports.com/college/marquette/article/our-interview-series-continues-soph-pg-tre-norman-comments-about-his-summer-workouts-and-his-new-teammates-236406514/
That's interesting both because it would be awesome to throw a 6-8 athlete on Hassan Diarra and because it suggests we won't be seaming Sean for awhile.
https://painttouches.com/2024/08/02/quick-impressions-from-the-first-open-practice-of-2024/
Quote from: tower912 on September 16, 2024, 07:07:09 AM
So, has anything that you have seen or heard this summer changed your opinion?
I still think the starters will be Ben, David, Kam, Chase, Stevie. I think Shaka stays with experienced starters.
Trey, Zaide, Damarius, Caedin, Royce, in that order, is my best guess 6-10. Again, experience first.
Agree on the starting 5, but think that Jop and Chase need to show a step forward, or they could be replaced by DO/Royce and Tre/Zaide.
Can Jop become a more consistent and less streaky shooter? Will he move the ball more or still be a black hole?
Can Chase show his 3-point shooting prowess be a real threat with 3-4 attempts/game? Can he be effective off the dribble?
If BOTH of those things happen, look out.
I would be amazed if a Senior and a Junior get "replaced" by a pair of Freshman/Sophomores. If the underclassmen earn more minutes, great, but barring injuries, we all know what the starting 5 will be, and they will all likely average 25+ mpg.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 18, 2024, 08:15:10 AM
I would be amazed if a Senior and a Junior get "replaced" by a pair of Freshman/Sophomores.
Yeah, that's not happening.
They may get more back up minutes that we thought, but I feel pretty confident that Joplin starts every game next year and Chase likely to do the same...or at least get big time minutes off the bench.
I thought that Chase was the most vulnerable starter. Until I listened to Shaka on the podcast.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 18, 2024, 08:15:10 AM
I would be amazed if a Senior and a Junior get "replaced" by a pair of Freshman/Sophomores. If the underclassmen earn more minutes, great, but barring injuries, we all know what the starting 5 will be, and they will all likely average 25+ mpg.
I agree with this. This is also why I believe Zaide or Tre will be the first off the bench over Demarius, at least to start the season. Shaka values time spent with the team and earning your way on the court.
"We need a TRUE PG!!" - Scooper's rallying cry in 2024-25
I don't follow this off-season as close as some of you do, but I will suggest Cam, Chase and Ben are the core of the team.
Probably can count on the three of them for about 100 of the 200 minutes in a game.
Six or seven more of our team will be competing for the remaining 100 minutes a game. I don't doubt Stevie and David will start but by the end of the season, I suspect Tre and maybe Owens or Hamilton and possibly Zaide will be break-out players.
Odd man out -- Al Amadou, which is too bad because I really like him. I truly hope I am wrong.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 18, 2024, 09:27:07 PM
I don't follow this off-season as close as some of you do, but I will suggest Cam, Chase and Ben are the core of the team.
Probably can count on the three of them for about 100 of the 200 minutes in a game.
Six or seven more of our team will be competing for the remaining 100 minutes a game. I don't doubt Stevie and David will start but by the end of the season, I suspect Tre and maybe Owens or Hamilton and possibly Zaide will be break-out players.
Odd man out -- Al Amadou, which is too bad because I really like him. I truly hope I am wrong.
From walk on, to 33ish minutes per game the next season
Hollywood is licking their chops for this script.
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 18, 2024, 09:27:07 PM
I don't follow this off-season as close as some of you do, but I will suggest Cam, Chase and Ben are the core of the team.
Probably can count on the three of them for about 100 of the 200 minutes in a game.
Six or seven more of our team will be competing for the remaining 100 minutes a game. I don't doubt Stevie and David will start but by the end of the season, I suspect Tre and maybe Owens or Hamilton and possibly Zaide will be break-out players.
Odd man out -- Al Amadou, which is too bad because I really like him. I truly hope I am wrong.
If you think Stevie Mitchell is going to be out of the starting lineup or be playing less than 35 min a game, you're nuts.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on September 19, 2024, 06:51:03 AM
If you think Stevie Mitchell is going to be out of the starting lineup or be playing less than 35 min a game, you're nuts.
You mean 25 right? There has yet to be a player here under Shaka that averages 35+ mpg.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 19, 2024, 07:00:47 AM
You mean 25 right? There has yet to be a player here under Shaka that averages 35+ mpg.
I'll walk it back to 30. I think he is going to be as important as Kam.
Man, I can't believe there are still Scoopers who don't understand what Mitchell does for this team.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on September 19, 2024, 07:09:28 AM
I'll walk it back to 30. I think he is going to be as important as Kam.
North of 30 wouldn't surprise me, but I can also see scenarios where Kam is the only one 30+.
I think you can go ahead and lock in every starter for at least 25 though. Chase would need all of a 4 mpg bump to get there and Ben would need 9, which isn't all that much since Oso's 32 are gone and his backups rn are a true Freshman, a RS Freshman or small Ball Jop.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 19, 2024, 07:58:41 AM
North of 30 wouldn't surprise me, but I can also see scenarios where Kam is the only one 30+.
I think you can go ahead and lock in every starter for at least 25 though. Chase would need all of a 4 mpg bump to get there and Ben would need 9, which isn't all that much since Oso's 32 are gone and his backups rn are a true Freshman, a RS Freshman or small Ball Jop.
Is that really necessary? What an insult!
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 19, 2024, 07:54:56 AM
Man, I can't believe there are still Scoopers who don't understand what Mitchell does for this team.
Yep, we were very lucky last year he was only out a couple of games and those games were against 3 bad teams and the loss @Providence.
Quote from: Hards Alumni on September 19, 2024, 06:51:03 AM
If you think Stevie Mitchell is going to be out of the starting lineup or be playing less than 35 min a game, you're nuts.
I'm nuts! I'll give you 10-1 odds. $20 to me if Stevie averages less than 35 min / game. $200 to you if he's over. Are you in?
Quote from: Jay Bee on September 19, 2024, 08:32:30 AM
I'm nuts! I'll give you 10-1 odds. $20 to me if Stevie averages less than 35 min / game. $200 to you if he's over. Are you in?
Well, I walked it back to 30+, still want to go?
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 19, 2024, 07:54:56 AM
Man, I can't believe there are still Scoopers who don't understand what Mitchell does for this team.
He's important, but if we have the depth that some seem to think we'll have, I could see his minutes staying in line with what they were last year.
Kam 30
Stevie 25
Jop 25
Ben 25
Chase 25
Tre 15
Zaide 15
Hamilton 15
Owens 10
Royce 10
Al 5
Sean 0
Clark 0
I was mostly responding to dgies saying that Kam, Chase and Ben are the core of the team. I have no idea if Mitchell is going to play 25 or 30, and I don't frankly care. But Mitchell (and Jop) is more of a "core" member than two guys who only really started due to injury the past couple of seasons.
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 19, 2024, 08:44:23 AM
I was mostly responding to dgies saying that Kam, Chase and Ben are the core of the team. I have no idea if Mitchell is going to play 25 or 30, and I don't frankly care. But Mitchell (and Jop) is more of a "core" member than two guys who only really started due to injury the past couple of seasons.
Brother Hippie:
You probably know more than I do on this stuff. Kam is the "Tyler" of this team and I do think Chase and Ben are essential to its success. I truly hope you are right about Stevie and if he's truly core to our team, he's gone from being a quick, lock-down defender to a all-around great player.
I do hope you're right.
And, yes, I think too many Scoopers underestimate the quality of this team. I'm waiting for Kam to say, "F- 'em!"
Quote from: The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole on September 19, 2024, 07:54:56 AM
Man, I can't believe there are still Scoopers who don't understand what Mitchell does for this team.
Yup. To be honest, the drop off in the quality of play from MU last year when Stevie was out was more drastic than it was when Kolek was out (guessing a numbers nerd will prove me wrong here).
Quote from: tower912 on September 18, 2024, 10:23:40 AM
I thought that Chase was the most vulnerable starter. Until I listened to Shaka on the podcast.
I have and continue to think that Jop is the most vulnerable. I think he keeps his spot but I think Owens play will demand a lot of minutes by the end of the season
I think injuries are the only thing that make any of the starters vulnerable to not being in the starting lineup. I think the starting lineup is pretty clear.
Another year, another session of scoopers fantasizing about unproven players at the expense of proven, veteran players
Mitchell and Joplin have double-digit starts and hundreds of minutes of Big East experience compared to kids fresh out of high school.
The vast majority of college frosh are not NBA one and dones. Most take awhile to adapt to the speed and complexity of the college game.
The difference this year is when Joplin has a bad game there are replacements!
Quote from: dgies9156 on September 18, 2024, 09:27:07 PM
Six or seven more of our team will be competing for the remaining 100 minutes a game. I don't doubt Stevie and David will start but by the end of the season, I suspect Tre and maybe Owens or Hamilton and possibly Zaide will be break-out players.
Damn, that's a lot of "break-out" players.
Not picking on you dgies, just trying to narrow it down. My guess for more than we expected this year is Damarious.
In his 3 years, Shaka's starters have combined for 130, 145, & 148 mpg combined. This team isn't quite at the level of the last two teams in terms of first team dominance, but I don't think we'll see a true platoon like Kur/Oso that pulled down the 2022 starter minutes.
Our sixth man has always been heavy in the rotation, getting 18, 19, & 21 mpg. Players 7/8 have always been at 16+ minutes.
With that in mind, expect Kam/Stevie/Chase/Jop/Gold to combine for roughly 140 minutes.
I think we can expect our sixth man (Owens is my guess) to get 20 mpg and the next two (Tre & Zaide) to get around 15 each. That's 50 combined.
That would leave about 10 minutes for Caedin, Royce, and the walk-ons. I'd guess most of that goes to Caedin. I think he will get 10-12 backing up Ben & Jop (with Gold sliding to the 4 when Caedin replaces Jop).
That would be a 9-man rotation, which would match 2022 as shaka deepest here.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 19, 2024, 08:27:57 PM
In his 3 years, Shaka's starters have combined for 130, 145, & 148 mpg combined. This team isn't quite at the level of the last two teams in terms of first team dominance, but I don't think we'll see a true platoon like Kur/Oso that pulled down the 2022 starter minutes.
Our sixth man has always been heavy in the rotation, getting 18, 19, & 21 mpg. Players 7/8 have always been at 16+ minutes.
With that in mind, expect Kam/Stevie/Chase/Jop/Gold to combine for roughly 140 minutes.
I think we can expect our sixth man (Owens is my guess) to get 20 mpg and the next two (Tre & Zaide) to get around 15 each. That's 50 combined.
That would leave about 10 minutes for Caedin, Royce, and the walk-ons. I'd guess most of that goes to Caedin. I think he will get 10-12 backing up Ben & Jop (with Gold sliding to the 4 when Caedin replaces Jop).
That would be a 9-man rotation, which would match 2022 as shaka deepest here.
I agree with this analysis
Quote from: Badgerhater on September 19, 2024, 11:52:57 AM
Another year, another session of scoopers fantasizing about unproven players at the expense of proven, veteran players
Mitchell and Joplin have double-digit starts and hundreds of minutes of Big East experience compared to kids fresh out of high school.
The vast majority of college frosh are not NBA one and dones. Most take awhile to adapt to the speed and complexity of the college game.
You're not wrong. FWIW, I usually skip the fantasizing about unproven players. Owens I believe in.
So lots of insider information about Owens being the next "truth". I like it. Hope what you guys are hearing and seeing are right. Would be just what the doctor ordered and one X factor no one has to be concerned about. 6' 7" sixth man who can do everything is sounding really good to me.
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2024, 08:11:59 AM
So lots of insider information about Owens being the next "truth". I like it. Hope what you guys are hearing and seeing are right. Would be just what the doctor ordered and one X factor no one has to be concerned about. 6' 7" sixth man who can do everything is sounding really good to me.
Like TAMU, I hate having expectations for freshmen or guys we haven't seen at this level. That said, the one constant I've heard from everyone who has been in or around the program since May is that Owens is a starting Big East caliber talent from day one.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 20, 2024, 10:01:59 AM
Like TAMU, I hate having expectations for freshmen or guys we haven't seen at this level. That said, the one constant I've heard from everyone who has been in or around the program since May is that Owens is a starting Big East caliber talent from day one.
Love hearing it Brew. I'm glad people are optimistic. He will fill a big need with his height and athleticism.
Staying off the freshman hype train is healthy.
Quote from: tower912 on September 20, 2024, 10:37:02 AM
Staying off the freshman hype train is healthy.
Yep, people jumping on the unknown (DO) at the expense of the know (BG/DJ) confound me.
Never ending. Back up QB syndrome applied to college athletics. The new guy, having never played D1 (sport) before, is the answer to all of the shortcomings (which is all we can see) of the experienced, established player.
It isn't just scoop. Everywhere and always.
Quote from: tower912 on September 20, 2024, 10:45:27 AM
Never ending. Back up QB syndrome applied to college athletics. The new guy, having never played D1 (sport) before, is the answer to all of the shortcomings (which is all we can see) of the experienced, established player.
It isn't just scoop. Everywhere and always.
But people are not really saying any of that.
All they are saying is everything heard about Owens by credible sources is hes a legit talent and will get major minutes
Nothing about him being some big answer. Just that he is likely to be the clear cut 6th man. Which considering we have 0 upperclassmen depth on the bench, is far from outlandish.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on September 20, 2024, 11:05:03 AM
But people are not really saying any of that.
All they are saying is everything heard about Owens by credible sources is hes a legit talent and will get major minutes
Nothing about him being some big answer. Just that he is likely to be the clear cut 6th man. Which considering we have 0 upperclassmen depth on the bench, is far from outlandish.
This thread one page ago.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on September 18, 2024, 08:10:21 AM
think that Jop and Chase need to show a step forward, or they could be replaced by DO/Royce and Tre/Zaide.
I would love to be wrong and have good consistent production from Freshman on day one. I know that's not how it works.
I remember when people were saying before he ever played a collegiate game that Freshman Sean needed to play 20 mpg bc Kolek couldn't cut it at pg. Trust the process/trust the upperclassmen.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2024, 11:18:09 AM
This thread one page ago.
I would love to be wrong and have good consistent production from Freshman on day one. I know that's not how it works.
I remember when people were saying before he ever played a collegiate game that Freshman Sean needed to play 20 mpg bc Kolek couldn't cut it at pg. Trust the process/trust the upperclassmen.
All that is saying is they "could be" of course they could be(unlikely knowing Shaka's track record). It also mentioned a couple returning guys. And never called anyone a savior or anything just potential back up options.
But really all this skepticism is weirdly following very known to be in the know posters giving the specific caveat how they don't usually like to buy into freshman. But where theres smoke...
Because there is lots of it. Owens is absolutely intended to play a heavy role as things stand. Probably as a 6th man. But freshman or not that's what it is.
Kam played 18.5 minutes and averaged over 7 a game as a freshman. So its also weird to act like people predicting Owens at around 20 mpg with a more well rounded(entering college) game and size is absurd.
Ill add to wait others have said. I'd put freshman Kam as about the baseline for DO this year barring massive growing pains.
Don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Scoop has a history of way overeating to summer rumors about freshman/development in general.
Quote from: El Guerrero 2 on August 02, 2023, 05:39:06 PM
Al looked surprisingly fluid and comfortable to me for a freshman big; I think he'll be useful for 5-10mpg.
Quote from: DoctorV on April 21, 2023, 11:39:38 PM
I think Tre gets more minutes that Stevie by years end,
Remember when Dex turned into prime AI during the summer and then morphed back into himself Nov. 1st?
Remember Juan's HS Senior mixtape?
All I'm (and I think tower) are trying to say is that we've been fooled too many times by scenarios listed above to jump on a hype train in the summer. Prove it to me/us in the fall/winter.
Pgsheroes32, I am as optimistic about Owens as I can remember being about a freshman in some time. Hence my comment in my OP that I can see him bumping up to 6th man. I think he has a high ceiling and will be a beast by the time he leaves MU.
Not tearing him down. Accepting that he is not a finished product and this is way too early in his journey. It would be cool if he blew past expectations.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2024, 10:40:46 AM
Yep, people jumping on the unknown (DO) at the expense of the know (BG/DJ) confound me.
That's not the case at all. I have Gold and Jop as starters and expect Owens to be sixth man, slightly ahead of Norman and Lowery for minutes.
My favorite lineup is whatever Shaka picks whenever he picks it. That will be good!
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2024, 11:46:11 AM
Don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Scoop has a history of way overeating to summer rumors about freshman/development in general.
Remember when Dex turned into prime AI during the summer and then morphed back into himself Nov. 1st?
Remember Juan's HS Senior mixtape?
All I'm (and I think tower) are trying to say is that we've been fooled too many times by scenarios listed above to jump on a hype train in the summer. Prove it to me/us in the fall/winter.
The point I am trying to make is that really you currently have no point.
No one is anointing him anything. No savior. Simply that by everything out of camp he's going to contribute immediately. Likely more than Kam did.
Basically your entire basis is "I've been fooled too many times by freshman, so nothing else matters. Must prove it in November"
Fine. But massively flawed.
Shaka, MU, and Shaka at MU are all 3 not immune to freshman having the EXACT year that people in the know are setting as an expectation for Owens
Just wild that there's push back on saying the guy is a top end bench and BE caliber lol
You'd think someone said he was 1st team all America.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2024, 10:40:46 AM
Yep, people jumping on the unknown (DO) at the expense of the know (BG/DJ) confound me.
Not sure this is mutually exclusive.
Also, many of the people who agree with you and Tower thinks Owens will be the sixth man. Meaning a difference maker.
Im not sold either way because I have not seen him play other than you tube highlights.
But I find it encouraging that normally restrained posters who have previously remained cautious on freshman impact prior to seasons starting are a little more optimistic about DO than other freshmen.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on September 20, 2024, 06:53:07 PM
The point I am trying to make is that really you currently have no point.
No one is anointing him anything. No savior. Simply that by everything out of camp he's going to contribute immediately. Likely more than Kam did.
Basically your entire basis is "I've been fooled too many times by freshman, so nothing else matters. Must prove it in November"
Fine. But massively flawed.
Shaka, MU, and Shaka at MU are all 3 not immune to freshman having the EXACT year that people in the know are setting as an expectation for Owens
Just wild that there's push back on saying the guy is a top end bench and BE caliber lol
You'd think someone said he was 1st team all America.
I like that you say that I don't have a point and then make my point for me. He's an unknown player. I expect nothing from unknown players, that way I can't be disappointed. I would be absolutely shocked if he puts up Kams freshman production. Also, the only one that has used words like anoint is you. What I'm saying is prove it in actual games, not just is summer work outs and one open practice.
So if people are hearing good things about a freshman they shouldn't talk about it because it doesn't mean anything until November? Seems to defeat the point of a team message board if you don't want people to post messages relating to what they hear about the team.
If Damarius can hit from deep at a clip of 13.0% or better, he should get 40 mpg
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 21, 2024, 10:36:44 AM
So if people are hearing good things about a freshman they shouldn't talk about it because it doesn't mean anything until November? Seems to defeat the point of a team message board if you don't want people to post messages relating to what they hear about the team.
You can talk about him as much as you want. I have neither the power or desire to control what others post. Just understand that from a historical perspective, it's unlikely that he will have the production that some are anticipating. If you think that he will be the exception, that's fine, I genuinely hope that it happens because it means that we will have more team success. I just would prefer more evidence than summer coach talk, summer highlight videos, and one open practice before I will be convinced.
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 21, 2024, 11:55:28 AM
Just understand that from a historical perspective, it's unlikely that he will have the production that some are anticipating.
March 9, 2022: Just understand that from a historical perspective, it's unlikely that Marquette will advance beyond the semifinals in the Big East Tournament.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on September 21, 2024, 12:46:43 PM
March 9, 2022: Just understand that from a historical perspective, it's unlikely that Marquette will advance beyond the semifinals in the Big East Tournament.
Kinda an apples to oranges comparison don't you think?
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 21, 2024, 11:55:28 AM
You can talk about him as much as you want. I have neither the power or desire to control what others post. Just understand that from a historical perspective, it's unlikely that he will have the production that some are anticipating. If you think that he will be the exception, that's fine, I genuinely hope that it happens because it means that we will have more team success. I just would prefer more evidence than summer coach talk, summer highlight videos, and one open practice before I will be convinced.
There aren't a ton of datapoints with Shaka at MU. 3 years here. Shaka played a lot of newcomers a lot of minutes year one, but that's because he had to. Year 2 played the returners a ton, with Chase getting 17 mpg and Sean 12 mpg as freshmen. Last year had a ton of returning minutes, so very few minutes available for freshmen. Going into this year, there are minutes out there for the freshmen to take. I'd assume Zaide and Tre will get the first opportunity at those minutes, but neither consistently showed they'll hold off decent talent.
Shaka did play freshmen a lot at Texas. But that talent was higher level than at MU.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 21, 2024, 10:36:44 AM
So if people are hearing good things about a freshman they shouldn't talk about it because it doesn't mean anything until November? Seems to defeat the point of a team message board if you don't want people to post messages relating to what they hear about the team.
100%. Glad you are posting optimistic projections. If it wasn't warranted I'm sure you wouldn't.
Quote from: Jay Bee on September 21, 2024, 10:53:43 AM
If Damarius can hit from deep at a clip of 13.0% or better, he should get 40 mpg
Putting him in the rarified air of Derrick Wilson. Oh. But wait. We don't have the brilliant Wojo coaching our squad anymore.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on September 22, 2024, 08:30:53 AM
Putting him in the rarified air of Derrick Wilson. Oh. But wait. We don't have the brilliant Wojo coaching our squad anymore.
Or Buzz!
I'm hoping DO follows the Justin Lewis trajectory but stays three years instead of two. Optimistic, undoubtedly; impossible, no.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 19, 2024, 08:27:57 PM
In his 3 years, Shaka's starters have combined for 130, 145, & 148 mpg combined. This team isn't quite at the level of the last two teams in terms of first team dominance, but I don't think we'll see a true platoon like Kur/Oso that pulled down the 2022 starter minutes.
Our sixth man has always been heavy in the rotation, getting 18, 19, & 21 mpg. Players 7/8 have always been at 16+ minutes.
With that in mind, expect Kam/Stevie/Chase/Jop/Gold to combine for roughly 140 minutes.
I think we can expect our sixth man (Owens is my guess) to get 20 mpg and the next two (Tre & Zaide) to get around 15 each. That's 50 combined.
That would leave about 10 minutes for Caedin, Royce, and the walk-ons. I'd guess most of that goes to Caedin. I think he will get 10-12 backing up Ben & Jop (with Gold sliding to the 4 when Caedin replaces Jop).
That would be a 9-man rotation, which would match 2022 as shaka deepest here.
It's going to be a very long year if Shaka and his staff don't think outside the box.
This season is penciling out to be 2004 all over again as we went from the Final 4 to even having our NIT bubble burst below us.
In 2004 we had zero post play and limited rebounding and a limited movement offense where everyone stood around waiting for Diener to launch a 3. Granted this year's team has way more athletic ability than the 2004 roster and can score attacking the basket and in transition too. Shaka also is way more astute than Tom Crean who often wasn't able to see what was clear to every fan including those with nosebleed seats.
If 6-9 260lb. Caeden Hamilton is only going to get 10 minutes a game then tell him to transfer now to a program that won't play Ben Gold, a 6-10 uncommitted rebounder with no post moves, ahead of him.
If we want to win now then then a starting lineup and rotation needs to look something like this:
1 - Kam/Tre
2 - Stevie/Kam/Chase/Lowery
3 - Owens/Chase/Lowery
4 - Parham/Gold/Joplin
5 - Hamilton/Gold
Lots of good players above that can play multiple positions. However, we must, must, must have an inside presence who can score in the post, rebound at a high level and alter shots. There is a reason why UConn and Purdue played for the national championship game last year in that the game is a lot easier when you have a dominant inside post presence.
My prediction is Hamilton won't be our MVP, but will become the most important person on our roster as no one else on our roster can replace his big body, skill-set, and game.
I give Parham the start at the 4 because, unless Gold has become a much more consistent outside shooter, Parham is a better outside shooter, more athletic, and is a good shot blocker who gives us overall more than Gold does. I love David Joplin and his family, however I don't love his game which includes clumsy dribbling, sporadic rebounding, below average defense and streaky shooting.
I'm also a huge Al Amadou fan! Love that he works hard everyday and didn't transfer. He's silly athletic and can develop into an impact player. However, in hindsight they should have redshirted him last year to save a year of eligibility on the back end. I would like to see him redshirt this year and then come back next year with 3 years of eligibility and entering his 20's where muscle starts to stick to your frame. I could see him developing into a switchable at the 2/3/4 who can become a Dennis Rodman/Scottie Pippen type of defensive menace who also prospers at offensive rebounding, steals and finishing in transition. He might have the largest upside of any player we have but like guys like Jimmy Butler, he might not reach his peak until his mid 20's.
Quote from: duanewade on September 23, 2024, 11:15:35 AM
My prediction is Hamilton won't be our MVP, but will become the most important person on our roster as no one else on our roster can replace his big body, skill-set, and game.
I sincerely doubt that Caedin Hamilton will be the most important person on Marquette's roster this year.
I appreciate this bold thinking.
There certainly is a lot to unpack there. Starting 3 Freshman over Juniors and Seniors is quite the unique perspective.
And done so many places with great success.
The same people who are telling me DMO could be in the NBA in 2 years or less are telling me Royce's defense is nowhere near ready for the Big East. And while Hamilton has some big time upside, Gold's institutional knowledge makes him the better pick right now. You could sell me on Gold at the 4 and Hamilton at the 5. I know that means Jop as 6th man. I don't hate that idea.
Quote from: The Lens on September 23, 2024, 12:50:04 PM
The same people who are telling me DMO could be in the NBA in 2 years or less are telling me Royce's defense is nowhere near ready for the Big East. And while Hamilton has some big time upside, Gold's institutional knowledge makes him the better pick right now. You could sell me on Gold at the 4 and Hamilton at the 5. I know that means Jop as 6th man. I don't hate that idea.
Lens, you are another poster with eyes and ears in the building. Glad you are hearing good things about DO as well. What is your confidence level in what you are hearing? I know many posters don't put much faith in freshman contributing meaningfully.
On a scale of Froling (zero) to D Wade (10) how confident are you in the impact DO will have this year? Or how confident are you that the information you are hearing is correct?
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 23, 2024, 01:04:53 PM
Lens, you are another poster with eyes and ears in the building. Glad you are hearing good things about DO as well. What is your confidence level in what you are hearing? I know many posters don't put much faith in freshman contributing meaningfully.
On a scale of Froling (zero) to D Wade (10) how confident are you in the impact DO will have this year? Or how confident are you that the information you are hearing is correct?
I would say 7.5
Quote from: The Lens on September 23, 2024, 01:09:47 PM
I would say 7.5
Thanks. Glad to hear it. This seems like a where there is smoke there is fire situation.
Quote from: duanewade on September 23, 2024, 11:15:35 AM
It's going to be a very long year if Shaka and his staff don't think outside the box.
This season is penciling out to be 2004 all over again as we went from the Final 4 to even having our NIT bubble burst below us.
In 2004 we had zero post play and limited rebounding and a limited movement offense where everyone stood around waiting for Diener to launch a 3. Granted this year's team has way more athletic ability than the 2004 roster and can score attacking the basket and in transition too. Shaka also is way more astute than Tom Crean who often wasn't able to see what was clear to every fan including those with nosebleed seats.
If 6-9 260lb. Caeden Hamilton is only going to get 10 minutes a game then tell him to transfer now to a program that won't play Ben Gold, a 6-10 uncommitted rebounder with no post moves, ahead of him.
If we want to win now then then a starting lineup and rotation needs to look something like this:
1 - Kam/Tre
2 - Stevie/Kam/Chase/Lowery
3 - Owens/Chase/Lowery
4 - Parham/Gold/Joplin
5 - Hamilton/Gold
Lots of good players above that can play multiple positions. However, we must, must, must have an inside presence who can score in the post, rebound at a high level and alter shots. There is a reason why UConn and Purdue played for the national championship game last year is that the game is a lot easier when you have a dominant inside post presence.
My prediction is Hamilton won't be our MVP, but will become the most important person on our roster as no one else on our roster can replace his big body, skill-set, and game.
I give Parham the start at the 4 because, unless Gold has become a much more consistent outside shooter, Parham is a better outside shooter, more athletic, and is a good shot blocker who gives us overall more than Gold does. I love David Joplin and his family, however I don't love his game which includes clumsy dribbling, sporadic rebounding, below average defense and streaky shooting.
I'm also a huge Al Amadou fan! Love that he works hard everyday and didn't transfer. He's silly athletic and can develop into an impact player. However, in hindsight they should have redshirted him last year to save a year of eligibility on the back end. I would like to see him redshirt this year and then come back next year with 3 years of eligibility and entering his 20's where muscle and starts to stick to your frame. I could see him developing into a switchable at the 2/3/4 who can become a Dennis Rodman/Scottie Pippen type of defensive menace who also prospers at offensive rebounding, steals and finishing in transition. He might have the largest upside of any player we have but like guys like Jimmy Butler, he might not reach his peak until his mid 20's.
LOL
Quote from: duanewade on September 23, 2024, 11:15:35 AM
It's going to be a very long year if Shaka and his staff don't think outside the box.
This season is penciling out to be 2004 all over again as we went from the Final 4 to even having our NIT bubble burst below us.
In 2004 we had zero post play and limited rebounding and a limited movement offense where everyone stood around waiting for Diener to launch a 3. Granted this year's team has way more athletic ability than the 2004 roster and can score attacking the basket and in transition too. Shaka also is way more astute than Tom Crean who often wasn't able to see what was clear to every fan including those with nosebleed seats.
If 6-9 260lb. Caeden Hamilton is only going to get 10 minutes a game then tell him to transfer now to a program that won't play Ben Gold, a 6-10 uncommitted rebounder with no post moves, ahead of him.
If we want to win now then then a starting lineup and rotation needs to look something like this:
1 - Kam/Tre
2 - Stevie/Kam/Chase/Lowery
3 - Owens/Chase/Lowery
4 - Parham/Gold/Joplin
5 - Hamilton/Gold
Lots of good players above that can play multiple positions. However, we must, must, must have an inside presence who can score in the post, rebound at a high level and alter shots. There is a reason why UConn and Purdue played for the national championship game last year in that the game is a lot easier when you have a dominant inside post presence.
My prediction is Hamilton won't be our MVP, but will become the most important person on our roster as no one else on our roster can replace his big body, skill-set, and game.
I give Parham the start at the 4 because, unless Gold has become a much more consistent outside shooter, Parham is a better outside shooter, more athletic, and is a good shot blocker who gives us overall more than Gold does. I love David Joplin and his family, however I don't love his game which includes clumsy dribbling, sporadic rebounding, below average defense and streaky shooting.
I'm also a huge Al Amadou fan! Love that he works hard everyday and didn't transfer. He's silly athletic and can develop into an impact player. However, in hindsight they should have redshirted him last year to save a year of eligibility on the back end. I would like to see him redshirt this year and then come back next year with 3 years of eligibility and entering his 20's where muscle starts to stick to your frame. I could see him developing into a switchable at the 2/3/4 who can become a Dennis Rodman/Scottie Pippen type of defensive menace who also prospers at offensive rebounding, steals and finishing in transition. He might have the largest upside of any player we have but like guys like Jimmy Butler, he might not reach his peak until his mid 20's.
I'm going to sue scoop for allowing posts this long. Heard you've done this
Quote from: duanewade on September 23, 2024, 11:15:35 AM
It's going to be a very long year if Shaka and his staff don't think outside the box.
This season is penciling out to be 2004 all over again as we went from the Final 4 to even having our NIT bubble burst below us.
In 2004 we had zero post play and limited rebounding and a limited movement offense where everyone stood around waiting for Diener to launch a 3. Granted this year's team has way more athletic ability than the 2004 roster and can score attacking the basket and in transition too. Shaka also is way more astute than Tom Crean who often wasn't able to see what was clear to every fan including those with nosebleed seats.
If 6-9 260lb. Caeden Hamilton is only going to get 10 minutes a game then tell him to transfer now to a program that won't play Ben Gold, a 6-10 uncommitted rebounder with no post moves, ahead of him.
If we want to win now then then a starting lineup and rotation needs to look something like this:
1 - Kam/Tre
2 - Stevie/Kam/Chase/Lowery
3 - Owens/Chase/Lowery
4 - Parham/Gold/Joplin
5 - Hamilton/Gold
Lots of good players above that can play multiple positions. However, we must, must, must have an inside presence who can score in the post, rebound at a high level and alter shots. There is a reason why UConn and Purdue played for the national championship game last year in that the game is a lot easier when you have a dominant inside post presence.
My prediction is Hamilton won't be our MVP, but will become the most important person on our roster as no one else on our roster can replace his big body, skill-set, and game.
I give Parham the start at the 4 because, unless Gold has become a much more consistent outside shooter, Parham is a better outside shooter, more athletic, and is a good shot blocker who gives us overall more than Gold does. I love David Joplin and his family, however I don't love his game which includes clumsy dribbling, sporadic rebounding, below average defense and streaky shooting.
I'm also a huge Al Amadou fan! Love that he works hard everyday and didn't transfer. He's silly athletic and can develop into an impact player. However, in hindsight they should have redshirted him last year to save a year of eligibility on the back end. I would like to see him redshirt this year and then come back next year with 3 years of eligibility and entering his 20's where muscle starts to stick to your frame. I could see him developing into a switchable at the 2/3/4 who can become a Dennis Rodman/Scottie Pippen type of defensive menace who also prospers at offensive rebounding, steals and finishing in transition. He might have the largest upside of any player we have but like guys like Jimmy Butler, he might not reach his peak until his mid 20's.
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/wtf-is-this-db9726e55a.jpg)
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 20, 2024, 11:18:09 AM
This thread one page ago.
I would love to be wrong and have good consistent production from Freshman on day one. I know that's not how it works.
Nowhere in that post was I advocating for Jop or Chase to simply be replaced because we have a freshman stud that needs to get time right away. Jop was wildly inconsistent last year. He owns DePaul and had a few other games where he went off, but he had many a game where he didn't shoot well and was a black hole on offense.
As we found out a few days ago, Chase was playing with a significant injury that hurt his explosiveness. Because of that, his play at the end of the year (save Colorado game) was very uneven. Those guys showed hope but also a lot of question marks.
Doesn't seem to be a crazy thought to state that they both need to step up or their time could be taken by one of the sophs or frosh.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on September 25, 2024, 03:06:38 PM
Nowhere in that post was I advocating for Jop or Chase to simply be replaced because we have a freshman stud that needs to get time right away. Jop was wildly inconsistent last year. He owns DePaul and had a few other games where he went off, but he had many a game where he didn't shoot well and was a black hole on offense.
As we found out a few days ago, Chase was playing with a significant injury that hurt his explosiveness. Because of that, his play at the end of the year (save Colorado game) was very uneven. Those guys showed hope but also a lot of question marks.
Doesn't seem to be a crazy thought to state that they both need to step up or their time could be taken by one of the sophs or frosh.
So your hypothesis is that the Freshman/Sophomore will be more consistent than the Juniors and Seniors?
Everyone is inconsistent, that's just the overall quality of ball that is produced at the collegiate level. Did you think that future All American and NBA draft pick TKO's minutes were under threat after his rough stretch in January where he went 2-19 and was clearly forcing things?
This year there more upfront players so when Jop goes into a funk, they can play Parham, Gold at the 4 and Hamilton at the 5. Even though they lost Oso they might be better then last year upfront.
https://collegehoopstoday.net/rothstein-files/20-under-the-radar-freshmen-for-the-2024-25-season/
Rothsteins moles reference Hamilton not DO
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on September 26, 2024, 11:53:24 AM
https://collegehoopstoday.net/rothstein-files/20-under-the-radar-freshmen-for-the-2024-25-season/
Rothsteins moles reference Hamilton not DO
Wojo still playing mind games
October 5 is creeping closer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XFBHXcdcWM
The hill
Quote from: tower912 on September 30, 2024, 06:08:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XFBHXcdcWM
The hill
I have two experiences with that hill. 1) boxing conditioning in college. 2) mile 5 of the Milwaukee marathon. I'm not jealous they had to do dead man carries up it
Quote from: tower912 on September 30, 2024, 06:08:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XFBHXcdcWM
The hill
I absolutely love seeing them supporting and encouraging each other. Guys that will run through a brick wall for each other can accomplish great things.
Looks like Shaka is already playing head games
https://x.com/coachshakasmart/status/1841199266229821832?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Dunk that, Ben.
Quote from: tower912 on October 01, 2024, 04:02:52 PM
Dunk that, Ben.
Yeah....that was a Tom Copa-esque lay in attempt.
Quote from: tower912 on October 01, 2024, 04:02:52 PM
Dunk that, Ben.
Yep. The explosion off two feet at that position will be missed.
According to MUMBB social media posts today, BG took Scoopers' concerns to heart today. He's also masked up.
Quote from: tower912 on September 30, 2024, 06:08:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XFBHXcdcWM
The hill
They're going to turn Josh into a beast, aren't they.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 01, 2024, 03:58:12 PM
Looks like Shaka is already playing head games
https://x.com/coachshakasmart/status/1841199266229821832?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q
Weird for a reserve player like Jop to be winning so many practice awards.
Quote from: Tyler COLEk on October 03, 2024, 01:55:54 PM
Weird for a reserve player like Jop to be winning so many practice awards.
The Jop discourse this year will be 🔥
Watching the various social media posts, it always looks like MU team is enjoying practice. Takes great coaching to create that positive kind of daily vibe.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on October 03, 2024, 02:16:41 PM
The Jop discourse this year will be 🔥
If we could just play all of our games at Wintrust, Jop would be fine.
Quote from: Herman Cain on October 03, 2024, 04:43:20 PM
Watching the various social media posts, it always looks like MU team is enjoying practice. Takes great coaching to create that positive kind of daily vibe.
Ha, I thought the young guys looked pretty miserable. But you know they're hearing what the pay off is from the older guys.
Sean Jones is listed as playing today.
Quote from: tower912 on October 05, 2024, 07:16:40 AM
Sean Jones is listed as playing today.
Interesting. Will be curious to hear scoop reports on how good he looks.
Quote from: tower912 on October 05, 2024, 07:16:40 AM
Sean Jones is listed as playing today.
Would be shocked if he played. All the pictures from practices show everyone in practice jerseys with their numbers on it, but Sean is in tshirts on the sidelines. Would be weird to have his first live action be in a scrimmage in front of fans.
Quote from: tower912 on October 05, 2024, 07:16:40 AM
Sean Jones is listed as playing today.
Where are you seeing that? Buddy texted me that sean isn't dressed
Edit: Ben Steele confirms that Sean is not dressed
Quote from: tower912 on October 05, 2024, 07:16:40 AM
Sean Jones is listed as playing today.
He might be playing some 2K or Madden
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on October 05, 2024, 11:13:11 AM
Where are you seeing that? Buddy texted me that sean isn't dressed
Edit: Ben Steele confirms that Sean is not dressed
Gomarquette.com had him listed, along with the caveat that lineups were subject to change.
I would have been stunned if he played.
Interesting re-read. Couple points.
Picking the starting 5 for the year was pretty easy IMO and most nailed it.
If you had predicted that Jop would be 2nd in minutes on page 1, I think you would have been questioned, his improvement on D was not widely predicted, and some were predicting his starting role would be under fire.
All 5 starters over 25 mpg as I predicted, and expect to continue in the coming years.
Think we were to high on DO and to low on RP. Seems so support my hypothesis that we should expect very little/nothing of Freshman and be pleasantly surprised rather than expect someone (DO) to be high impact (6th man) from day one and be disappointed.
Calling my shot for 25-26. Starting 5 will be the two returning starters + the only bench players to get 10+ mpg (ZL/RP) + the returning from injury player that got 10+ mpg in 23-24 (SJ).
Quote from: Its DJOver on September 19, 2024, 08:37:28 AMKam 30
Stevie 25
Jop 25
Ben 25
Chase 25
Tre 15
Zaide 15
Hamilton 15
Owens 10
Royce 10
Al 5
Sean 0
Clark 0
Not a bad prediction, Tre has not developed at the pace I would have hoped, and I was in the majority that undersold RP, which also affected my CH outlook.
I believe DO's progress was stunted by his groin and foot injuries that caused him to miss two months of preseason. If he had been able to build on what he showed at the scrimmage, I believe his season would have been different and the predictions closer.
DO was 3rd in scoring vs Missouri (scrimmage) behind Kam and Stevie. There was so much optimism for his season.
Like Tower said, I think the injuries stunted his growth. Never seemed to catch up mentally to his assignments.
Excited to see his growth next year.
Quote from: tower912 on March 24, 2025, 03:40:13 PMI believe DO's progress was stunted by his groin and foot injuries that caused him to miss two months of preseason. If he had been able to build on what he showed at the scrimmage, I believe his season would have been different and the predictions closer.
You very well could be right. I still stand by my low/no expectations for true Fresh theory, it makes their growth more enjoyable to me (I could probably go find some interesting comments about Freshman Stevie/Jop). Looking forward to see how the guys coming off RS will look and what the new crop of Freshman has to offer.
Quote from: Juan Anderson's Mixtape on March 24, 2025, 03:43:55 PMDO was 3rd in scoring vs Missouri (scrimmage) behind Kam and Stevie. There was so much optimism for his season.
Like Tower said, I think the injuries stunted his growth. Never seemed to catch up mentally to his assignments.
Excited to see his growth next year.
There's more than a few reasons not to read too much into a secret scrimmage stat line, but agree that I'm excited to see his development next fall.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 24, 2025, 03:46:49 PMThere's more than a few reasons not to read too much into a secret scrimmage stat line, but agree that I'm excited to see his development next fall.
Yep. Even the coaches don't always know how practice will translate to the games.
For example, Royce earned a bigger role than they initially thought he would fill this year. Others, like Tre, haven't quite filled the roles expected.
I am going to take this on a 'brain worm every action as an equal an opposite reaction' tangent and talk about the OOC scheduling. Including a different reason to be ticked about the Dayton game.
11 OOC games. Some big ones. 7 of the 11 were A-10 or better. Leaving 4 little sisters of the poor games. The 7 were all grinders. MU went 5-2. But the inexperienced bench did not play extended minutes in those games other than Iowa St when there was no choice, considering 8 scholarship players after Chase rolled his ankle.
In hindsight, I think a case could be made that MU would have been better served trading the Dayton game for a blowout buy game where the bench had another opportunity for 20 minutes of run without looking over their shoulders. Could that have altered slightly the trajectory of DO or Hamilton?
Ah, well, pure conjecture over might have beens. Or perhaps something to look at when scheduling for next season.
Quote from: tower912 on March 24, 2025, 04:03:19 PMI am going to take this on a 'brain worm every action as an equal an opposite reaction' tangent and talk about the OOC scheduling. Including a different reason to be ticked about the Dayton game.
11 OOC games. Some big ones. 7 of the 11 were A-10 or better. Leaving 4 little sisters of the poor games. The 7 were all grinders. MU went 5-2. But the inexperienced bench did not play extended minutes in those games other than Iowa St when there was no choice, considering 8 scholarship players after Chase rolled his ankle.
In hindsight, I think a case could be made that MU would have been better served trading the Dayton game for a blowout buy game where the bench had another opportunity for 20 minutes of run without looking over their shoulders. Could that have altered slightly the trajectory of DO or Hamilton?
Ah, well, pure conjecture over might have beens. Or perhaps something to look at when scheduling for next season.
I think this train of thought has some merit, and I'll build upon it.
It has been mentioned that a lot of our offense is the players reading what the defense is doing i.l.o set plays. That can be tremendously effective when you have experienced players that have a lot of games played and games played with their teammates (TKO/Oso PnR comes to mind). It is more difficult to get Freshman up to speed in that regard. Having a few set plays where all the Freshman has to learn is "when this pass happens I flash here, when this rotation happens I pop here" would allow them to gain more fluidity within our offensive. Certainly not every trip down the floor, but a set play designed to get Caedin an easy look or Clark an easy lob could do wonders for their confidence. Feel like Shaka/Nevada can improve in this regard.
Quote from: Its DJOver on March 24, 2025, 04:09:50 PMI think this train of thought has some merit, and I'll build upon it.
It has been mentioned that a lot of our offense is the players reading what the defense is doing i.l.o set plays. That can be tremendously effective when you have experienced players that have a lot of games played and games played with their teammates (TKO/Oso PnR comes to mind). It is more difficult to get Freshman up to speed in that regard. Having a few set plays where all the Freshman has to learn is "when this pass happens I flash here, when this rotation happens I pop here" would allow them to gain more fluidity within our offensive. Certainly not every trip down the floor, but a set play designed to get Caedin an easy look or Clark an easy lob could do wonders for their confidence. Feel like Shaka/Nevada can improve in this regard.
In Shaka's 4 seasons, there have been 3 different, what I would call set plays that I could identify. Justin/Oso standing at the elbow while Greg/Kam run baseline off of a screen. Justin/Oso threw a baseball pass to the Greg/Kam in the opposite corner for an open 3. 4 times in 3 years that I could specifically identify it.
Sean at the point, Kam running the baseline off of an Oso screen in the wide post catching the ball above the 3 point foul line extended in motion, his defender trailing. Kam continued the curl with the ball back into the lane while Oso rolled, putting Oso's defender on an island. Two times.
The inverted screen and roll where TKo robbed the ball to Oso at the foul line and forced his own defender into Oso's defender, creating a driving lane. A variation of this is the only one of these run this season. Kam did it with Stevie's man at Butler.
There is room for plays and sets within this offense.
The timed cuts by weak side players when TKo would run screen and roll were also missing. Stevie and Chase were the recipient of several of those passes.