MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: jesmu84 on October 26, 2023, 05:31:03 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/us/lewiston-maine-shooting/index.html
Jeez
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Were the doors locked?
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All those mental health issues, already threatened shooting up a national guard facility, still allowed to own a bunch of guns.
Who could have possibly seen this coming.
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All those mental health issues, already threatened shooting up a national guard facility, still allowed to own a bunch of guns.
Who could have possibly seen this coming.
All you can do is prey
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The old 'infinite number of monkeys and an number of typewriters and one of them will write Hamlet' argument.
Hundreds of million of guns in the hands of tens of millions of people. Gonna get this sometimes.
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All you can do is prey
And think.
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All those mental health issues, already threatened shooting up a national guard facility, still allowed to own a bunch of guns.
Who could have possibly seen this coming.
In a different time maybe the guy would have been committed. Difficult to do today.
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In a different time maybe the guy would have been committed. Difficult to do today.
In a sane worlds he wouldn’t have access to guns. Difficult to do today.
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Along those lines, the unnatural carnal knowledgeing 5th Circuit thinks domestic abusers with a history of gun violence should have an inalienable right to own guns.
https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/10/24/23914235/supreme-court-domestic-violence-abusers-gun-policy-us-rahimi
"Three years ago, according to the Justice Department, Zackey Rahimi and his girlfriend had an argument in a parking lot where Rahimi threatened to take away their mutual child. He then allegedly grabbed her wrist, knocked her to the ground, dragged her to the car, and hit her head on the dashboard. After he realized that a witness had seen this fight, Rahimi allegedly pulled a gun and fired at this bystander.
He later called his girlfriend and allegedly threatened to shoot her if she told anyone that he’d assaulted her.
This is one of a series of gun crimes allegedly committed by Rahimi. In 2020, he allegedly threatened another woman with a gun. According to the Justice Department, “Rahimi also participated in a series of five shootings in December 2020 and January 2021.” In one alleged incident, he “fired into the man’s house with an AR-15 rifle.” In another, he allegedly followed a truck and “fired multiple shots at another car that had been traveling behind the truck” after the truck’s driver flashed their headlights at Rahimi.
<snip>
Before anyone can be disarmed under this law, a court must have issued a restraining order against them, in a proceeding where the defendant was given an opportunity to appear and make their case. Federal law does not disarm anyone unless a court has either explicitly determined that they are a violent threat to their partner or to a child, or implicitly made such a determination by prohibiting them from engaging in violence against that partner or child.
Nevertheless, the Fifth Circuit didn’t just strike down this law. It ruled that the law is unconstitutional on its face. That means that, if the Fifth Circuit’s decision is upheld by the Supreme Court, this federal ban on firearm possession by domestic abusers may never be applied to any individual, no matter how violent that individual may be and no matter how careful the court that issued a restraining order against such an individual was in ensuring that they received due process."
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Along those lines, the unnatural carnal knowledgeing 5th Circuit thinks domestic abusers with a history of gun violence should have an inalienable right to own guns.
https://www.vox.com/scotus/2023/10/24/23914235/supreme-court-domestic-violence-abusers-gun-policy-us-rahimi
"Three years ago, according to the Justice Department, Zackey Rahimi and his girlfriend had an argument in a parking lot where Rahimi threatened to take away their mutual child. He then allegedly grabbed her wrist, knocked her to the ground, dragged her to the car, and hit her head on the dashboard. After he realized that a witness had seen this fight, Rahimi allegedly pulled a gun and fired at this bystander.
He later called his girlfriend and allegedly threatened to shoot her if she told anyone that he’d assaulted her.
This is one of a series of gun crimes allegedly committed by Rahimi. In 2020, he allegedly threatened another woman with a gun. According to the Justice Department, “Rahimi also participated in a series of five shootings in December 2020 and January 2021.” In one alleged incident, he “fired into the man’s house with an AR-15 rifle.” In another, he allegedly followed a truck and “fired multiple shots at another car that had been traveling behind the truck” after the truck’s driver flashed their headlights at Rahimi.
<snip>
Before anyone can be disarmed under this law, a court must have issued a restraining order against them, in a proceeding where the defendant was given an opportunity to appear and make their case. Federal law does not disarm anyone unless a court has either explicitly determined that they are a violent threat to their partner or to a child, or implicitly made such a determination by prohibiting them from engaging in violence against that partner or child.
Nevertheless, the Fifth Circuit didn’t just strike down this law. It ruled that the law is unconstitutional on its face. That means that, if the Fifth Circuit’s decision is upheld by the Supreme Court, this federal ban on firearm possession by domestic abusers may never be applied to any individual, no matter how violent that individual may be and no matter how careful the court that issued a restraining order against such an individual was in ensuring that they received due process."
This makes total sense.
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In a different time maybe the guy would have been committed. Difficult to do today.
Reports indicate he was committed this summer.
https://news.yahoo.com/robert-card-know-person-interest-070858379.html
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This makes total sense.
It's really just taking Ziggy's Maxim of "We can't have new guns laws because criminals will just ignore them" one step further.
Now, "we can't have existing laws because extreme right-wing zealots say so".
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Our dentists must feel validated in refusing to step foot in dangerous inner cities like Highland Park, Newtown, Uvalde and Lewiston.
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Our dentists must feel validated in refusing to step foot in dangerous inner cities like Highland Park, Newtown, Uvalde and Lewiston.
Germantown
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I’m appalled at the lack of thoughts and prayers being offered up. We all know the impact that can have on our current problems. Why the silence?
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Our dentists must feel validated in refusing to step foot in dangerous inner cities like Highland Park, Newtown, Uvalde and Lewiston.
Crazy folks are present everywhere, even Charlotte, aina?
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I’m appalled at the lack of thoughts and prayers being offered up. We all know the impact that can have on our current problems. Why the silence?
What would Jesus do? Probably buy a Glock
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Crazy folks are present everywhere, even Charlotte, aina?
Access to mental health care in America, like dental care isn’t for everyone, aina? Just the folks that can afford it
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Access to mental health care in America, like dental care isn’t for everyone, aina? Just the folks that can afford it
Yes. This guy wanted mental health care but didn’t have the ends. Totally what this is all about.
Some crazy people do bad things. When the signs are clear, we should lock em up.
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Yes. This guy wanted mental health care but didn’t have the ends. Totally what this is all about.
Some crazy people do bad things. When the signs are clear, we should lock em up.
What do clear signs look like? Did he display them?
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Crazy folks are present everywhere, even Charlotte, aina?
Exactly! You're finally getting it, Doc, though it would have been better if you expanded it to "Crazy folks with easy, easy, easy access to as many guns as they want are present everywhere."
But hey, I'm sure the religious-zealot, election-denying, 2nd Amendment-worshipping new Speaker of the House will push for the kind of common-sense, gun-safety laws that 80%+ of Americans say they want, nu?
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Apparently mental health issues are uniquely American.
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Apparently mental health issues are uniquely American.
Because of China and Tik Tok.
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Yes. This guy wanted mental health care but didn’t have the ends. Totally what this is all about.
Some crazy people do bad things. When the signs are clear, we should lock em up.
Lock em up for what? And where? And for how long? And at what cost? And who's paying?
Wouldn't it be simpler, cheaper and more effective to not allow crazy people easy access to guns?
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Yes. This guy wanted mental health care but didn’t have the ends. Totally what this is all about.
Some crazy people do bad things. When the signs are clear, we should lock em up.
Confirmed that he had severe mental health issues and should have been locked up.
https://www.newsweek.com/robert-card-maine-mass-shooting-social-media-posts-1838068
His "liked" tweets include content published by Donald Trump Jnr., Tucker Carlson and Dinesh D'Souza. He also liked tweets by former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy and Jim Jordan, according to the screenshots.
Another tweet he liked, from Tucker Carlson, regarding the same subject, reads: "The trans movement, it turns out, is the mirror image of Christianity, and therefore its natural enemy. People who believe they're God can't stand to be reminded that they're not."
He also liked a post from Dinesh D'Souza about banning assault weapons...
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Yes. This guy wanted mental health care but didn’t have the ends. Totally what this is all about.
Some crazy people do bad things. When the signs are clear, we should lock em up.
We will move from thoughts and prayers in about an hour to blaming a mental health crisis, not guns.
Of course, it’ll be all word salads and we’ll all forget about it in a day or so until the next one.
If we have a mental health crisis, then let’s address it and find a way to get access to it affordable and take away the stigma associated with it.
Don’t worry, none of that will happen and we can just blame the crazies. Rinse, repeat.
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Confirmed that he had severe mental health issues and should have been locked up.
https://www.newsweek.com/robert-card-maine-mass-shooting-social-media-posts-1838068
His "liked" tweets include content published by Donald Trump Jnr., Tucker Carlson and Dinesh D'Souza. He also liked tweets by former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy and Jim Jordan, according to the screenshots.
Another tweet he liked, from Tucker Carlson, regarding the same subject, reads: "The trans movement, it turns out, is the mirror image of Christianity, and therefore its natural enemy. People who believe they're God can't stand to be reminded that they're not."
He also liked a post from Dinesh D'Souza about banning assault weapons...
Wow! He really is effen insane!
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Already calling for more guns on Fox. Now that we have a true MAGAt in charge of the House, what does anyone think will get done?
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Already calling for more guns on Fox. Now that we have a true MAGAt in charge of the House, what does anyone think will get done?
Nothing. But I don’t think there is a whole lot of will on the side of the left on this issue anymore other than sound bites. The country is desensitized to this.
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Thank goodness a trans person didn't try to pee in a public restroom. THAT would have been a real American catastrophe!
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Remember the polls where people lied about wanting ‘common sense’ gun laws so they could feel good about themselves?
Some recent attempts by gun control advocates to tighten Maine’s gun laws have failed. Proposals to require background checks for private gun sales and create a 72-hour waiting period for gun purchases failed earlier this year. Proposals that focused on school security and banning bump stocks failed in 2019.
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Last time I checked, guns don't shoot by themselves, hey?
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Last time I checked, guns don't shoot by themselves, hey?
Last time I checked, fentanyl doesn't ingest itself, hey?
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Last time I checked, guns don't shoot by themselves, hey?
🤡 🤡 🤡
Someone also can’t shoot a gun if they don’t have access to one. The shooter is the poster child for common-sense red flag laws, which Maine doesn’t have thanks to a**holes like Susan Collins. His guns should have been taken away.
Sure, those laws aren’t perfect and there’s certainly no guarantee he wouldn’t have been able to obtain one. But there’s also the chance this could have been prevented completely or the level of carnage reduced.
But no, let’s not do f*cking anything because it might not help. Truly impressive logic. Also, there’s no need for regular citizens to have access to weapons like these. Spare me your “well-regulated militia” BS.
I always ask people like you why this only happens consistently at this level in the US compared to other wealthy, developed nations. I have yet to and I suspect never will receive a substantive answer on that one.
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In a different time maybe the guy would have been committed. Difficult to do today.
I just want to point out that inherent in this statement is a societal choice we are making between what we feel are appropriate obstacles to exercise the right to bear arms vs the right to not be committed against your will. The fact that we're like "ahhh, yes, well back in the day the standard was lower to take away someone's freedom if they are suspected of mental illness" tells the whole story.
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I just want to point out that inherent in this statement is a societal choice we are making between what we feel are appropriate obstacles to exercise the right to bear arms vs the right to not be committed against your will. The fact that we're like "ahhh, yes, well back in the day the standard was lower to take away someone's freedom if they are suspected of mental illness" tells the whole story.
Yup. Better to be locked up indefinitely in a mental health institution than lose the right to own an AR-15.
#Iitsadeathcult
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I just want to point out that inherent in this statement is a societal choice we are making between what we feel are appropriate obstacles to exercise the right to bear arms vs the right to not be committed against your will. The fact that we're like "ahhh, yes, well back in the day the standard was lower to take away someone's freedom if they are suspected of mental illness" tells the whole story.
The problem is guns, guns, guns. Period. A crazy person can’t punch 20 people to death.
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Last time I checked, fentanyl doesn't ingest itself, hey?
Exactly, people shoot guns. People abuse fentanyl. Now, ur gettin' it, aina?
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The problem is guns, guns, guns. Period. A crazy person can’t punch 20 people to death.
[/quote
Lotsa dangerous things in life. One thing is constant though. People make choices, hey?
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Exactly, people shoot guns. People abuse fentanyl. Now, ur gettin' it, aina?
So why restrict and regulate fentanyl? Why not sell it at Walmart? Why can't I buy fentanyl online? Where's the next opiate expo?
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This shows implicit ignorance. Just argumentative for argument sake, aina?
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This shows implicit ignorance. Just argumentative for argument sake, aina?
Just say "uncle." Tap out. No mas.
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You don't have to buy your fentanyl, just rummage thru the hospital trash dumpster at night like a starvin' rat, hey?
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You don't have to buy your fentanyl, just rummage thru the hospital trash dumpster at night like a starvin' rat, hey?
Too much work. I'll just ask my dentist to hook me up.
#ethicallychallengedprofession
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Or ya kould stand in da median, lookin' for a handout wit a cardboard sign, pretendin' ta bee homeless and outta work, hey?
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Huh, I didn't expect to come to Scoop today and seeing the mentally diminished dentist argue that fentanyl should be available to anyone on demand, no restrictions. That the more powerful and deadly versions should be especially in demand. That it should be marketed to kids in cute pink varieties.
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I blame Bernie
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If you're implying there are no restrictions on gun purchases, you're wrong.
Those who are mentally ill and/or devious don't necessarily follow laws, or haven't you noticed, hey?
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If you're implying there are no restrictions on gun purchases, you're wrong.
Those who are mentally ill and/or devious don't necessarily follow laws, or haven't you noticed, hey?
Why have any laws? Those who are mentally ill and/or devious don't necessarily follow any of 'em.
But hey, if only a few more books had been banned or LGBTQ people had been discriminated against, these shootings wouldn't have happened. Those are the laws that need to be toughened!
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What do clear signs look like? Did he display them?
He said he heard voices and wanted to shoot places up. I'm not sure how big of a neon sign you need, but obviously releasing this man not under supervision (bare minimum) and allowing him access to deadly firearms are also major contributing factors.
That's really the crux of the issue. People who are clearly unwell having access to firearms that are designed to kill humans alone.
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He said he heard voices and wanted to shoot places up. I'm not sure how big of a neon sign you need, but obviously releasing this man not under supervision (bare minimum) and allowing him access to deadly firearms are also major contributing factors.
That's really the crux of the issue. People who are clearly unwell having access to firearms that are designed to kill humans alone.
Stop this crazy talk. If only every man, woman and child in Lewiston had 50 ARs apiece, this never would have happened. That's just math.
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He said he heard voices and wanted to shoot places up. I'm not sure how big of a neon sign you need, but obviously releasing this man not under supervision (bare minimum) and allowing him access to deadly firearms are also major contributing factors.
That's really the crux of the issue. People who are clearly unwell having access to firearms that are designed to kill humans alone.
I agree completely. But I do also believe that if he was still hearing such voices and he was still released, that's not great either. I am certainly not saying that someone needs to be locked up indefinitely, but if we are going to lock people up, they need to be cared for. And that's costly, but the alternatives aren't great either.
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Shirley, ur knot denying 1 or more individuals, with a conceal and carry permit, wouldn't have taken dis nutjob out and saved lives, hey?
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Those who are mentally ill and/or devious don't necessarily follow laws, or haven't you noticed, hey?
Oh, we know. We have a whole thread about those people.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=63361.0
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Shirley, ur knot denying 1 or more individuals, with a conceal and carry permit, wouldn't have taken dis nutjob out and saved lives, hey?
The killer was a trained killer. Most conceal and carry are more of the Barney Fife type.
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What would Jesus do? Probably buy a Glock
Brother Rico:
Tell ya what. If Jesus had a concealed carry permit and a Glock tucked undear his tunic, Pilate and the boys would think twice about nailing the guy to a cross.
Of course, Pilate's guys all would have AR-15s and Uzis.
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Brother Rico:
Tell ya what. If Jesus had a concealed carry permit and a Glock tucked undear his tunic, Pilate and the boys would think twice about nailing the guy to a cross.
Of course, Pilate's guys all would have AR-15s and Uzis.
It is a great hypothetical if we really think about it. Of course, Jesus died for our sins and we’ve repaid that with our constant disregard for the lives of our fellow man.
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He said he heard voices and wanted to shoot places up. I'm not sure how big of a neon sign you need, but obviously releasing this man not under supervision (bare minimum) and allowing him access to deadly firearms are also major contributing factors.
That's really the crux of the issue. People who are clearly unwell having access to firearms that are designed to kill humans alone.
The whole mental health thing is just a diversion. If a law was passed to prevent them from purchasing a gun, it would be overturned. Just like the law preventing a spouse who threatened their partner with a gun from keeping that gun will be overturned soon. Anyone who puts a gun to the head of another human and threatens to kill them is already nuts. But can’t take the gun out of a nuts hand.
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Shirley, ur knot denying 1 or more individuals, with a conceal and carry permit, wouldn't have taken dis nutjob out and saved lives, hey?
Yes. A pistol is the best defense against an assault rifle. Quit being so willfully stupid.
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The killer was a trained killer. Most conceal and carry are more of the Barney Fife type.
Nope. Wrong. That's definitely not how it looks in my head when I'm getting off daydreaming about saving everyone and getting on the news with my glock in one hand and my tiny glock in my other hand.
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Get this utter scumfk. Sounds like he has access to boats. Absolute whacko piece of garbage. Find him.
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Yes. A pistol is the best defense against an assault rifle. Quit being so willfully stupid.
He's not, it's the dunning Krueger effect "if I was there with my piece that never would've happened!" I don't think people who think like doc are being willfully obtuse, they genuinely believe that if they were there they'd be prepared it'd end fine and can't comprehend why someone would disagree because they're projecting that belief onto others.
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Yes. A pistol is the best defense against an assault rifle. Quit being so willfully stupid.
Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
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Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
I agree with this analysis
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Get this utter scumfk. Sounds like he has access to boats. Absolute whacko piece of garbage. Find him.
And then send him to Iran.
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Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
I actually think they probably would have preferred to just have had a significantly reduced likelihood of this happening in the first place. But who am I to interfere with your hoplophilia.
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Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
What point are you trying to make here? Maine is a permitless open and concealed carry state. Any one of those 22 people who are now dead could have been legally carrying (if they were 21 and older.)
But the "best defense to a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun" rarely works.
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C'mon y'all let's all sing Kumbaya followed by Lennon's "Imagine'" hey?
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It is a great hypothetical if we really think about it. Of course, Jesus died for our sins and we’ve repaid that with our constant disregard for the lives of our fellow man.
Taking the religious symbolism out of it, Jesus died because he was a radical. Jesus challenged the status quo and providied a philosophical thought that all persons were equal and that each life had value.
In the Roman Empire/Jewish leadership of Jesus' days, Jesus was dangerous. The same as Martin King and Medgar Evers were dangerous and had to be eliminated.
As for the disregard of the lives of our fellow men and women, take a trip to the Vatican someday. The paintings in the halls and reception areas leading to the Sistine Chapel portray conquests in the name of the reigning Pope. Or, as I whispered to Ms. Dgies at the time, "Wow, so many have died in the name of the Prince of Peace."
We're no different than the Crusaders as long as we arm our homes to the hilt and permit others to do the same.
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Would it be possible for the non-agenda crowd to discontinue saying “crazy” to describe people with mental illness or mental health challenges?
The vast majority of mentally ill people are non-violent. and, are more likely to be a victim of crime than to perpetrate it. I believe most non-agenda people understand this. I would imagine 100% of people here know a friend or family member with some sort of mental health challenges in their daily lives, big or small.
There’s nothing wrong with having mental health challenges. There’s nothing wrong with people that go places to seek and get care for it. And there’s nothing wrong with treating those people like anyone else before during and after.
Access to guns. Quantity of guns. Types of guns. Gun culture. Violence exposure as a youth, young adult etc….politicians who prioritize personal wealth, power, vote against increased mental health funding and access, but for less gun restrictions. and intentionally duping people who do little more than regurgitate talking points. And of course those who vote for tax breaks and nothing else matters. These are all of course more of the problem.
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Taking the religious symbolism out of it, Jesus died because he was a radical. Jesus challenged the status quo and providied a philosophical thought that all persons were equal and that each life had value.
In the Roman Empire/Jewish leadership of Jesus' days, Jesus was dangerous. The same as Martin King and Medgar Evers were dangerous and had to be eliminated.
As for the disregard of the lives of our fellow men and women, take a trip to the Vatican someday. The paintings in the halls and reception areas leading to the Sistine Chapel portray conquests in the name of the reigning Pope. Or, as I whispered to Ms. Dgies at the time, "Wow, so many have died in the name of the Prince of Peace."
We're no different than the Crusaders as long as we arm our homes to the hilt and permit others to do the same.
Correct
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Would it be possible for the non-agenda crowd to discontinue saying “crazy” to describe people with mental illness or mental health challenges?
The vast majority of mentally ill people are non-violent. and, are more likely to be a victim of crime than to perpetrate it. I believe most non-agenda people understand this. I would imagine 100% of people here know a friend or family member with some sort of mental health challenges in their daily lives, big or small.
There’s nothing wrong with having mental health challenges. There’s nothing wrong with people that go places to seek and get care for it. And there’s nothing wrong with treating those people like anyone else before during and after.
Access to guns. Quantity of guns. Types of guns. Gun culture. Violence exposure as a youth, young adult etc….politicians who prioritize personal wealth, power, vote against increased mental health funding and access, but for less gun restrictions. and intentionally duping people who do little more than regurgitate talking points. And of course those who vote for tax breaks and nothing else matters. These are all of course more of the problem.
Correct
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C'mon y'all let's all sing Kumbaya followed by Lennon's "Imagine'" hey?
So this is where your feelings matter more than facts, because we know based on statistics elsewhere what happens to gun deaths when we reduce gun availability. Its just math. But you don't care about that, so Ts and Ps.
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Shirley, ur knot denying 1 or more individuals, with a conceal and carry permit, wouldn't have taken dis nutjob out and saved lives, hey?
Well he's still at large. I wonder why the 2A crowd vigilantes in Maine aren't out there hunting the most dangerous game.
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Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
No, they would have liked the mootherfooker not to have a deadly weapon, oona?
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Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
Yessir. The one and only answer is more guns. Lennon and McCartney were right - happiness really is a warm gun.
Our new Speaker probably is working on a law mandating that every newborn child receive 100 guns at birth. Mexico will pay for them, of course.
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Well he's still at large. I wonder why the 2A crowd vigilantes in Maine aren't out there hunting the most dangerous game.
I have a five point plan that involves turning Maine to dust, and capturing their precious lobster filled waters.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/lewiston-maine-shooting-manhunt-gunman-police-live-rcna122270#rcrd23266
"Liam Kent, who grew up near Card’s home in nearby Bowdoin, Maine, described the place as “basically a compound” where "The family and Robert, they're all gun fanatics," Kent said. "For all intents and purposes, they are very much associated with right-wing militias. It's known in the town to stay away from them and not approach them."
Kent said he vividly remembers when he went to the store as a kid and saw Card at a nearby weigh station with a dead deer. Card was grinning, covered in blood with a gun strapped to his body still.
"Also they would shoot guns all the time, you could hear them every day after school," Kent added. "It was like clockwork."
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Pretty sure 22 and counting dead folks and dozens of others injured would have liked to have had a chance against this motherfooker, aina?
You're so close to getting it but can't quite drag yourself over the hump.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/lewiston-maine-shooting-manhunt-gunman-police-live-rcna122270#rcrd23266
"Liam Kent, who grew up near Card’s home in nearby Bowdoin, Maine, described the place as “basically a compound” where "The family and Robert, they're all gun fanatics," Kent said. "For all intents and purposes, they are very much associated with right-wing militias. It's known in the town to stay away from them and not approach them."
Kent said he vividly remembers when he went to the store as a kid and saw Card at a nearby weigh station with a dead deer. Card was grinning, covered in blood with a gun strapped to his body still.
"Also they would shoot guns all the time, you could hear them every day after school," Kent added. "It was like clockwork."
Sounds like a fine, patriotic family. No Blacks or Jews or (probably) gay people, and lots and lots and lots of guns, so they check all the right boxes. Let freedom ring, baby!
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Sounds like a fine, patriotic family. No Blacks or Jews or (probably) gay people, and lots and lots and lots of guns, so they check all the right boxes. Let freedom ring, baby!
I don’t know how much stock I put into these reports that show up right after these incidents
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That is wise in most circumstances.
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That is wise in most circumstances.
I’m past the point of what are their politics or social media histories unless they help us catch these murderers
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Yes. Me, too. Troubled person + gun.
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Yes. Me, too. Troubled person + gun.
Bingo. If this guy is MAGA, why target a bowling alley/restaurant near his hometown? The problem is he had access to a mass casualty weapon
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Would it be possible for the non-agenda crowd to discontinue saying “crazy” to describe people with mental illness or mental health challenges?
The vast majority of mentally ill people are non-violent. and, are more likely to be a victim of crime than to perpetrate it. I believe most non-agenda people understand this. I would imagine 100% of people here know a friend or family member with some sort of mental health challenges in their daily lives, big or small.
There’s nothing wrong with having mental health challenges. There’s nothing wrong with people that go places to seek and get care for it. And there’s nothing wrong with treating those people like anyone else before during and after.
Access to guns. Quantity of guns. Types of guns. Gun culture. Violence exposure as a youth, young adult etc….politicians who prioritize personal wealth, power, vote against increased mental health funding and access, but for less gun restrictions. and intentionally duping people who do little more than regurgitate talking points. And of course those who vote for tax breaks and nothing else matters. These are all of course more of the problem.
Well said.
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Bingo. If this guy is MAGA, why target a bowling alley/restaurant near his hometown? The problem is he had access to a mass casualty weapon
A weapon designed to legitimately create an explosion inside the body in the hands of a trained killer would have been stopped easily by a crowd of panicky maybe some under the influence people with small hand guns.
The people making these logically irrational arguments won't care unless it directly happens to them. God forbid it does happen to anyone and their family/friends but something tells me that we wouldn't be seeing a smug police report posting about it on scoop after if it did.
Covid kind of made me accept the realization that many Americans simply cannot be bothered if it isn't a direct impact to their life.
One of my close business partners I was just on a call with yesterday morning lives in Lewiston with his wife a block or two from where this happened (They are alright but obviously now out of pocket). It is insane to me that in a country so large I have multiple personal connections to people affected by mass shootings over the past decade. One is too much but I am now running out of fingers on my hand to count them.
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The suspect's family is reporting that the suspect claimed to have heard voices disparaging him when he was in/near the two locations.
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Confirmed that he had severe mental health issues and should have been locked up.
https://www.newsweek.com/robert-card-maine-mass-shooting-social-media-posts-1838068
His "liked" tweets include content published by Donald Trump Jnr., Tucker Carlson and Dinesh D'Souza. He also liked tweets by former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy and Jim Jordan, according to the screenshots.
Another tweet he liked, from Tucker Carlson, regarding the same subject, reads: "The trans movement, it turns out, is the mirror image of Christianity, and therefore its natural enemy. People who believe they're God can't stand to be reminded that they're not."
He also liked a post from Dinesh D'Souza about banning assault weapons...
yeah blah blah fill in all the rest of the conservatives you guys hate and get all your political vomit out under guise of "lewiston shooting" but it was him reading chit posted by you guys here on scoop that was the final straw. and, of all things...he had a poster of ronnie reagan and wayne lapierre and charlton heston with guns on his bedroom wall
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The whole mental health thing is just a diversion. If a law was passed to prevent them from purchasing a gun, it would be overturned. Just like the law preventing a spouse who threatened their partner with a gun from keeping that gun will be overturned soon. Anyone who puts a gun to the head of another human and threatens to kill them is already nuts. But can’t take the gun out of a nuts hand.
and there you have it-everything is just "overturned" and now it's all mike johnson's fault damn it
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I just want to point out that inherent in this statement is a societal choice we are making between what we feel are appropriate obstacles to exercise the right to bear arms vs the right to not be committed against your will. The fact that we're like "ahhh, yes, well back in the day the standard was lower to take away someone's freedom if they are suspected of mental illness" tells the whole story.
You make a very good point, Burrow. Freedoms are not absolute. People known to be mentally unstable and dangerous shouldn’t have access to guns. Or knives. Or cars. He should have stayed institutionalized. He shouldn’t have had the freedom to roam the streets. Do those who favor policies making it almost impossible to keep people like him take any responsibility? Nope. They wash their hands and blame the gun. Easy Peasy.
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You make a very good point, Burrow. Freedoms are not absolute. People known to be mentally unstable and dangerous shouldn’t have access to guns. Or knives. Or cars. He should have stayed institutionalized. He shouldn’t have had the freedom to roam the streets. Do those who favor policies making it almost impossible to keep people like him take any responsibility? Nope. They wash their hands and blame the gun. Easy Peasy.
Now fund what you're suggesting. That's the problem. The "Its mental health problems, not guns!" crowd doesn't want to pay for mental health care.
And if they do, they're not voting that way.
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You make a very good point, Burrow. Freedoms are not absolute. People known to be mentally unstable and dangerous shouldn’t have access to guns. Or knives. Or cars. He should have stayed institutionalized. He shouldn’t have had the freedom to roam the streets. Do those who favor policies making it almost impossible to keep people like him take any responsibility? Nope. They wash their hands and blame the gun. Easy Peasy.
No.
Knives are used for cooking and eating etc…cars are used for transportation, etc….guns are used for…………..not eating and not transportation. But good try.
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Now fund what you're suggesting. That's the problem. The "Its mental health problems, not guns!" crowd doesn't want to pay for mental health care.
And if they do, they're not voting that way.
“This is the actual solution but I don’t want to pay for it myself”
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Yes. A pistol is the best defense against an assault rifle. Quit being so willfully stupid.
i'm sure the people at this party and many others would love to kick you right in the stones if you had any
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236
Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62217263
Elisjsha Dicken, 22, who was at the mall with his girlfriend, drew his pistol and fatally shot the gunman.
https://www.ktnv.com/news/man-called-hero-for-stopping-shooter-at-turnberry-towers-friday
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i'm sure the people at this party and many others would love to kick you right in the stones if you had any
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236
Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62217263
Elisjsha Dicken, 22, who was at the mall with his girlfriend, drew his pistol and fatally shot the gunman.
https://www.ktnv.com/news/man-called-hero-for-stopping-shooter-at-turnberry-towers-friday
Powerless to prevent it from happening but good thing someone else is able to do the same violent thing back after people get mowed down
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Oh, good. The poster boy for a Marquette education has chimed in
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Oh, good. The poster boy for a Marquette education has chimed in
Yeah there’s always an anecdote to keep him in his safe space.
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i'm sure the people at this party and many others would love to kick you right in the stones if you had any
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236
Police spokesman Tony Hazelett said the woman's quick reaction saved lives and may have prevented a mass shooting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62217263
Elisjsha Dicken, 22, who was at the mall with his girlfriend, drew his pistol and fatally shot the gunman.
https://www.ktnv.com/news/man-called-hero-for-stopping-shooter-at-turnberry-towers-friday
The mass shooter only killed 3 before being taken down? Yay, I guess?
Now do the other 564 mass shootings in the U.S. this year.
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“This is the actual solution but I don’t want to pay for it myself”
Said nobody
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You make a very good point, Burrow. Freedoms are not absolute. People known to be mentally unstable and dangerous shouldn’t have access to guns. Or knives. Or cars. He should have stayed institutionalized. He shouldn’t have had the freedom to roam the streets. Do those who favor policies making it almost impossible to keep people like him take any responsibility? Nope. They wash their hands and blame the gun. Easy Peasy.
OK, let's treat guns like cars.
Before shooting, a person must undergo a weekslong training and safety program and then pass both a written and practical test.
Gun owners will be required to acquire a license which must be renewed periodically.
All guns must be registered with the government annually, and owners must pay a yearly fee to the state and local government to own a gun.
All sales and transfers of guns must be registered with the state.
Owners must purchase liability insurance for each of their guns.
Works for me. You in?
Which policies make it almost impossible to keep people like him?
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Said nobody
say one thing and vote another is saying that.
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Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
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Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
American exceptionalism
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Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Other countries don’t have republicans.
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Other countries don’t have republicans.
^^^ ban ze
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American exceptionalism
Sometimes you just have to sacrifice children at a bowling alley on the altar of Freedom.
Sorry if you don't like that, commie.
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OK, let's treat guns like cars.
Before shooting, a person must undergo a weekslong training and safety program and then pass both a written and practical test.
Gun owners will be required to acquire a license which must be renewed periodically.
All guns must be registered with the government annually, and owners must pay a yearly fee to the state and local government to own a gun.
All sales and transfers of guns must be registered with the state.
Owners must purchase liability insurance for each of their guns.
Works for me. You in?
Which policies make it almost impossible to keep people like him?
(https://images2.imgbox.com/3d/f5/oSf8etow_o.jpg) (https://imgbox.com/oSf8etow)
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26 times.
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Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Lens: Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Gun nuts: Mental health!
Everyone: Is America the only country with mental health issues?
Gun nuts: .............
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The guy should have tried that in a small town
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OK, let's treat guns like cars.
Before shooting, a person must undergo a weekslong training and safety program and then pass both a written and practical test.
Gun owners will be required to acquire a license which must be renewed periodically.
All guns must be registered with the government annually, and owners must pay a yearly fee to the state and local government to own a gun.
All sales and transfers of guns must be registered with the state.
Owners must purchase liability insurance for each of their guns.
Works for me. You in?
Which policies make it almost impossible to keep people like him?
I’m actually in agreement with this.
How do you feel about the involuntary commitment process? Do you think we may have gone too far protecting the freedoms of those who have exhibited that they’re dangerous to themselves and/or others?
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I’m actually in agreement with this.
How do you feel about the involuntary commitment process? Do you think we may have gone too far protecting the freedoms of those who have exhibited that they’re dangerous to themselves and/or others?
Yes
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I’m actually in agreement with this.
How do you feel about the involuntary commitment process? Do you think we may have gone too far protecting the freedoms of those who have exhibited that they’re dangerous to themselves and/or others?
Honestly, I don't have a good answer for that. It's definitely possible, and I would guess probable;, but I'm not well educated when it comes to involuntary commitment process or policy changes.
Some quick Googling finds that several states in recent years - Cali, Oregon, NJ and Pennsylvania among them - have taken steps to reform the process. That would seem a recognition of flaws, right?
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I’m actually in agreement with this.
How do you feel about the involuntary commitment process? Do you think we may have gone too far protecting the freedoms of those who have exhibited that they’re dangerous to themselves and/or others?
List by state:
https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/grading-the-states (https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/grading-the-states)
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Yet another beauty of the f-ing broken two party system that often forces people into seemingly one issue voters, when in reality most people are anything but.
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I’m actually in agreement with this.
How do you feel about the involuntary commitment process? Do you think we may have gone too far protecting the freedoms of those who have exhibited that they’re dangerous to themselves and/or others?
It was never about protecting freedoms. It was about protecting money.
It’s always about the money - as any sports fan should know.
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How do you feel about the involuntary commitment process? Do you think we may have gone too far protecting the freedoms of those who have exhibited that they’re dangerous to themselves and/or others?
Lenny, I'm really glad you brought this up. I've been adjacent to a couple involuntary commitment proceedings, and in my experience, a family member is often the petitioner for a person's own safety but faces an uphill climb. Courts and testifying medical professionals are often hesitant to commit someone, and will only do so for the shortest possible period to get past an immediate threat. As sad as that sounds, it makes a lot of sense. Involuntary commitment is the only way someone can be detained without being accused of a crime, so from a civil liberties or government overreach standpoint, its as serious as it gets.
What bums me out (though based on your earlier posts, I don't think we disagree) is that we're so reluctant to impede the right to bear arms that our solution to protect society is pivoting to making it easier to commit someone. "Well we have to assume everyone has ready access to guns all the time, so we need to lower the standard for when someone 'poses a danger' to themselves or others." The commitment process could certainly use some improvements, though I think most of those are financial/personnel related rather than problems with the legal standard. The issue is whether there is quiet drift of the definition of immediate danger because of our insistence that everyone be armed to the teeth all the time.
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Lenny, I'm really glad you brought this up. I've been adjacent to a couple involuntary commitment proceedings, and in my experience, a family member is often the petitioner for a person's own safety but faces an uphill climb. Courts and testifying medical professionals are often hesitant to commit someone, and will only do so for the shortest possible period to get past an immediate threat. As sad as that sounds, it makes a lot of sense. Involuntary commitment is the only way someone can be detained without being accused of a crime, so from a civil liberties or government overreach standpoint, its as serious as it gets.
What bums me out (though based on your earlier posts, I don't think we disagree) is that we're so reluctant to impede the right to bear arms that our solution to protect society is pivoting to making it easier to commit someone. "Well we have to assume everyone has ready access to guns all the time, so we need to lower the standard for when someone 'poses a danger' to themselves or others." The commitment process could certainly use some improvements, though I think most of those are financial/personnel related rather than problems with the legal standard. The issue is whether there is quiet drift of the definition of immediate danger because of our insistence that everyone be armed to the teeth all the time.
Burrow
All good points. Always enjoy a back and forth with you.
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List by state:
https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/grading-the-states (https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/grading-the-states)
Interesting, lawdog. No (or none discernible to me) correlation between being a blue or red state and handling (or trying to) the problem effectively.
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The new Speaker went on Hannity last night and said he has absolutely no interest in strengthening any gun-safety provisions.
Because of course not.
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The new Speaker went on Hannity last night and said he has absolutely no interest in strengthening any gun-safety provisions.
Because of course not.
The only thing worse is the Maine Democrat who said he now supports restrictions on assault rifles. He didn’t care when kids were getting mowed down across the country, BUT now that it happened in his district it is suddenly a priority. A true douche canoe in the proud Scoop tradition.
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The only thing worse is the Maine Democrat who said he now supports restrictions on assault rifles. He didn’t care when kids were getting mowed down across the country, BUT now that it happened in his district it is suddenly a priority. A true douche canoe in the proud Scoop tradition.
You know what? Whatever it takes.
This kind of thing is pretty common. A homophobe suddenly becomes supportive when one of his kids comes out of the closet. An entertainer or athlete who never was charitable suddenly gets active in cancer or heart research when a parent or child gets afflicted. A person who shrugs off drunk driving joins MADD after a family member gets killed by a drunk driver. And, yes, a gun-rights advocate finally sees the light after someone she loves gets gunned down by someone who never should have had access to a firearm.
So yeah, douche canoe. But at least he's now a douche canoe doing the right thing.
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You know what? Whatever it takes.
This kind of thing is pretty common. A homophobe suddenly becomes supportive when one of his kids comes out of the closet. An entertainer or athlete who never was charitable suddenly gets active in cancer or heart research when a parent or child gets afflicted. A person who shrugs off drunk driving joins MADD after a family member gets killed by a drunk driver. And, yes, a gun-rights advocate finally sees the light after someone she loves gets gunned down by someone who never should have had access to a firearm.
So yeah, douche canoe. But at least he's now a douche canoe doing the right thing.
I’m pretty forgiving of those sort of people in regular life. They are usually ambivalent to dismissive, not outrightly antagonistic or hateful or whatnot. It’s often human nature to be blind/short sighted/etc to things that don’t directly affect you. But politicians? It’s literally their job to see the whole picture, be representative and proactive for their constituents, not just their personal self. But so many of them have no interest in doing so or just flat out choose not to
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The only thing worse is the Maine Democrat who said he now supports restrictions on assault rifles. He didn’t care when kids were getting mowed down across the country, BUT now that it happened in his district it is suddenly a priority. A true douche canoe in the proud Scoop tradition.
What good does it do to condemn someone like this? Would it be better if he hadn't had a come to Jesus moment?
You're never going to win hearts and minds if your first instinct is to label those you convert to your side as douche canoes.
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What good does it do to condemn someone like this? Would it be better if he hadn't had a come to Jesus moment?
You're never going to win hearts and minds if your first instinct is to label those you convert to your side as douche canoes.
+1
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What good does it do to condemn someone like this? Would it be better if he hadn't had a come to Jesus moment?
You're never going to win hearts and minds if your first instinct is to label those you convert to your side as douche canoes.
There’s a difference between a come to Jesus movement and politically-convenient yapping
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There’s a difference between a come to Jesus movement and politically-convenient yapping
True and only time will tell.
But until then, we'd best believe that every word out of every public person's mouth is politically-convenient yapping when there's a recording device in the room.
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Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
Why doesn’t this happen in other comparable countries?
The Second Amendent crowd never seems to answer this question.
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The Second Amendent crowd never seems to answer this question.
Music videos, video games, Hollywood and so on
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Music videos, video games, Hollywood and so on
you forgot "gangsta" rap
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Music videos, video games, Hollywood and so on
Divorces, legal abortion, and the teaching of evolution, according to the illustrious Speaker of the House.
Which, again, I'm pretty sure they have in other developed countries.
Hmmm, I wonder what the one different factor could actually be?
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you forgot "gangsta" rap
You know they can say the n word and I can’t
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The Second Amendent crowd never seems to answer this question.
That's because for many of these 2nd Amendment politicians, it's about their individual wealth and power over all else. Many don't care about guns. And many of their constiutients are sold a bill of goods.
Thoughts and prayers, blame someone else, gaslight and change the subject.
The cold truth is their individual wealth and power are more important to them than doing something about guns. It's a choice.
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Each time one of these shootings occur the usual knee jerk reaction is to blame guns. There are plenty of laws pertaining to weapons but it always comes down to the laws not followed or nobody reacted to the trouble signs of mental illness. Having an unarmed populace faced with criminals who disregard all laws including guns is a recipe for disaster. Per the CDC and FBI's own data between 1.5 and 2MM crimes per year are deterred or stopped by the presence of a gun. Pretty compelling evidence for the Second Amendment.
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Each time one of these shootings occur the usual knee jerk reaction is to blame guns. There are plenty of laws pertaining to weapons but it always comes down to the laws not followed or nobody reacted to the trouble signs of mental illness. Having an unarmed populace faced with criminals who disregard all laws including guns is a recipe for disaster. Per the CDC and FBI's own data between 1.5 and 2MM crimes per year are deterred or stopped by the presence of a gun. Pretty compelling evidence for the Second Amendment.
I don't know of many people that are blaming just guns. It's the lack of laws with any bite (registration, training, red flag laws, assault rifles) etc.
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I don't know of many people that are blaming just guns. It's the lack of laws with any bite (registration, training, red flag laws, assault rifles) etc.
Correct.
And then there's this:
(https://www.thetrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/snowballs_fixed-768x614.png)
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/06/defensive-gun-use-data-good-guys-with-guns/
This from the article:
The reality is that estimates of defensive gun use are so squishy that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in May removed all figures from its website.
And this:
More than 20 years ago, Kleck, who taught at Florida State University, reported a far higher figure, 2.5 million, and that’s been embraced by gun activists. In 1993, Kleck and his colleague Marc Gertz surveyed 5,000 adults and asked if they or their household members had used a gun for self-defense in the past five years, even if it wasn’t fired. Just over 1 percent of respondents said they did. In their National Self-Defense Survey, published in 1995, Kleck and Gertz extrapolated that figure to the entire adult population of 200 million, concluding that Americans use guns for self-defense as often as 2.1 to 2.5 million times a year.
Researchers have found several issues with Kleck’s estimates. While the adult population in the United States in 1993 was around 200 million people, not all of them owned guns — only about 42 percent did. So extrapolating the survey results to the entire adult population yields an overestimate. David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, who first addressed “extreme overestimates” of DGUs 25 years ago, pointed out problems with Kleck’s math in 1997:
Guns were reportedly used by defenders for self-defense in approximately 845,000 burglaries. From sophisticated victimization surveys, however, we know that there were fewer than six million burglaries in the year of the survey and in only 22 percent of those cases was someone certainly at home (1.3 million burglaries). Since only 42 percent of U.S. households own firearms, and since the victims in two thirds of the occupied dwellings were asleep, the 2.5 million figure requires us to believe that burglary victims use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.
And this:
Are there more instances of defensive gun use than gun crimes?
No. If we’re going by NCVS data, DGUs do not outnumber gun crimes. There are seven times as many gun crimes (484,800) as there are instances of defensive gun use (70,040) each year, according to the survey.
Leading researchers back that up. The Harvard Injury Control Center has found that guns are used far more often to intimidate others than in self-defense.
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Correct.
And then there's this:
(https://www.thetrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/snowballs_fixed-768x614.png)
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/06/defensive-gun-use-data-good-guys-with-guns/
This from the article:
The reality is that estimates of defensive gun use are so squishy that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in May removed all figures from its website.
And this:
More than 20 years ago, Kleck, who taught at Florida State University, reported a far higher figure, 2.5 million, and that’s been embraced by gun activists. In 1993, Kleck and his colleague Marc Gertz surveyed 5,000 adults and asked if they or their household members had used a gun for self-defense in the past five years, even if it wasn’t fired. Just over 1 percent of respondents said they did. In their National Self-Defense Survey, published in 1995, Kleck and Gertz extrapolated that figure to the entire adult population of 200 million, concluding that Americans use guns for self-defense as often as 2.1 to 2.5 million times a year.
Researchers have found several issues with Kleck’s estimates. While the adult population in the United States in 1993 was around 200 million people, not all of them owned guns — only about 42 percent did. So extrapolating the survey results to the entire adult population yields an overestimate. David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, who first addressed “extreme overestimates” of DGUs 25 years ago, pointed out problems with Kleck’s math in 1997:
Guns were reportedly used by defenders for self-defense in approximately 845,000 burglaries. From sophisticated victimization surveys, however, we know that there were fewer than six million burglaries in the year of the survey and in only 22 percent of those cases was someone certainly at home (1.3 million burglaries). Since only 42 percent of U.S. households own firearms, and since the victims in two thirds of the occupied dwellings were asleep, the 2.5 million figure requires us to believe that burglary victims use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.
And this:
Are there more instances of defensive gun use than gun crimes?
No. If we’re going by NCVS data, DGUs do not outnumber gun crimes. There are seven times as many gun crimes (484,800) as there are instances of defensive gun use (70,040) each year, according to the survey.
Leading researchers back that up. The Harvard Injury Control Center has found that guns are used far more often to intimidate others than in self-defense.
To be fair, that doesn't take into consideration the "deterrent factor", crimes that aren't committed because of the potential victim has a gun. Well, my quick solution is to test that theory, make highly strict gun laws (no guns outside of the home, manadatory safes, registration, yearly training, ban certain types of weapons), and if crime goes through the roof, ease back on some of the restrictions.
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To be fair, that doesn't take into consideration the "deterrent factor", crimes that aren't committed because of the potential victim has a gun. Well, my quick solution is to test that theory, make highly strict gun laws (no guns outside of the home, manadatory safes, registration, yearly training, ban certain types of weapons), and if crime goes through the roof, ease back on some of the restrictions.
The last paragraph I quoted - The Harvard Injury Control Center has found that guns are used far more often to intimidate others than in self-defense - rings true to me.
How would those considering committing a crime even know that House A had guns in it but House B didn't?
Having said that, I like your idea, lawdog. An overwhelming majority of Americans say they want gun-safety laws with more teeth. A far smaller percentage want guns, guns and more guns everywhere and all the time.
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No one is trying to ban guns.
Carry a hand gun for self defense, fine.
Hunt, fine.
Enjoy trap shooting, fine.
Blow off some steam at the range, go nuts.
I don't get how anyone can rationalize why assault rifles should be legal.
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No one is trying to ban guys.
Carry a hand gun for self defense, fine.
Hunt, fine.
Enjoy trap shooting, fine.
I don't get how anyone can rationalize why assault rifles should be legal.
murder dildos are fun to shoot
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How would those considering committing a crime even know that House A had guns in it but House B didn't?
I have one of these. Don't own a gun (and never will). Never been robbed.
(https://i.etsystatic.com/22461939/r/il/85b4b7/3023590899/il_570xN.3023590899_alan.jpg)
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There’s a difference between a come to Jesus movement and politically-convenient yapping
Woo hoo!!
Even JB and Jockey have moments of agreement.
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Music videos, video games, Hollywood and so on
Wokeism
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No one is trying to ban guns.
Carry a hand gun for self defense, fine.
Hunt, fine.
Enjoy trap shooting, fine.
Blow off some steam at the range, go nuts.
I don't get how anyone can rationalize why assault rifles should be legal.
They can’t. Banning assault rifles is a necessary start, but it’s just a start with regards to gun reform. It will help with some of the mass shootings etc…but it doesn’t address many other gun homicides, suicides, and accidental gun deaths.
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They can’t. Banning assault rifles is a necessary start, but it’s just a start with regards to gun reform. It will help with some of the mass shootings etc…but it doesn’t address many other gun homicides, suicides, and accidental gun deaths.
You'll need to ban bullets too, and the ingredients needed to make bullets
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Wokeism
What about Chicago?
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They can’t. Banning assault rifles is a necessary start, but it’s just a start with regards to gun reform. It will help with some of the mass shootings etc…but it doesn’t address many other gun homicides, suicides, and accidental gun deaths.
I have a 5 point plan to stop gun deaths.
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I have a 5 point plan to stop gun deaths.
Darkness has a way of accomplishing these things, patty cakes
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No one is trying to ban guns.
Carry a hand gun for self defense, fine.
Hunt, fine.
Enjoy trap shooting, fine.
Blow off some steam at the range, go nuts.
I don't get how anyone can rationalize why assault rifles should be legal.
The problem is that every Fox viewer believes all Libs want to ban all guns.
Lying works. As a famous ex-president said -lie often enough and people will start to believe it.
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Y'all should listen to Revisionist History 6 part podcast on guns. Super good.
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You know what? Whatever it takes.
This kind of thing is pretty common. A homophobe suddenly becomes supportive when one of his kids comes out of the closet. An entertainer or athlete who never was charitable suddenly gets active in cancer or heart research when a parent or child gets afflicted. A person who shrugs off drunk driving joins MADD after a family member gets killed by a drunk driver. And, yes, a gun-rights advocate finally sees the light after someone she loves gets gunned down by someone who never should have had access to a firearm.
So yeah, douche canoe. But at least he's now a douche canoe doing the right thing.
So (in your world) if someone was brought up with (or concluded due to other forces) a particular viewpoint he’s still a douche canoe even if his personal experience helped him see things differently?
Not mine. For example, I welcome dumb people who are converts from communism or socialism to capitalism and consider them equals despite the fact that I was way smarter first. Hell, I don’t even consider those who haven’t seen the light to be douche canoes. They’re wrong, of course, and if/when their viewpoint carries the day much suffering will/does result - but I still think of them as wrong, not douche canoes. I’ve never understood the “we disagree because I’m a good person and you’re a douche”argument that so many on the left favor on all sorts of issues. I don’t think it’s a particularly persuasive tactic.
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So (in your world) if someone was brought up with (or concluded due to other forces) a particular viewpoint he’s still a douche canoe even if his personal experience helped him see things differently?
Not mine. For example, I welcome dumb people who are converts from communism or socialism to capitalism and consider them equals despite the fact that I was way smarter first. Hell, I don’t even consider those who haven’t seen the light to be douche canoes. They’re wrong, of course, and if/when their viewpoint carries the day much suffering will/does result - but I still think of them as wrong, not douche canoes. I’ve never understood the “we disagree because I’m a good person and you’re a douche”argument that so many on the left favor on all sorts of issues. I don’t think it’s a particularly persuasive tactic.
(https://media.tenor.com/0XE3kmHX410AAAAd/thats-bait-fury-road.gif)
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Y'all should listen to Revisionist History 6 part podcast on guns. Super good.
Little Sammy Alito concurs.
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So (in your world) if someone was brought up with (or concluded due to other forces) a particular viewpoint he’s still a douche canoe even if his personal experience helped him see things differently?
Not mine. For example, I welcome dumb people who are converts from communism or socialism to capitalism and consider them equals despite the fact that I was way smarter first. Hell, I don’t even consider those who haven’t seen the light to be douche canoes. They’re wrong, of course, and if/when their viewpoint carries the day much suffering will/does result - but I still think of them as wrong, not douche canoes. I’ve never understood the “we disagree because I’m a good person and you’re a douche”argument that so many on the left favor on all sorts of issues. I don’t think it’s a particularly persuasive tactic.
Well, I was thinking that he made two decisions because they were politically expedient for him. He decided to be a big guns-rights person because he felt that's what he needed to get elected in Maine, and now he's suddenly flip-flopped because of this mass shooting spree.
But you're right, Lenny. I don't know the man, and he might be a wonderful person who was genuinely conflicted not once but twice, and both times went with what he really thought was best for humankind. So I probably shouldn't have judged him. And bottom line: I'm glad he flip-flopped, whatever his motivation might have been. He'll be feeling heat from the NRA and gun-worshippers everywhere, so one could even argue that his flip-flop took courage.
As far as communism, socialism, dumb people and all the other fine stuff you talked about -- including your claim that only "the left" calls others names (who knew our own "Douche Canoe" and our beloved dentists were on the left?) -- I'll let that be and others can judge it on its merit.
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(https://media.tenor.com/0XE3kmHX410AAAAd/thats-bait-fury-road.gif)
lol
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We don't dish out anywhere near what's tossed toward our way us by the crowd with stinky turds between their ears, hey?
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We don't dish out anywhere near what's tossed toward our way us by the crowd with stinky turds between their ears, hey?
Well, you and Douchey have been doing your Joseph McCarthy bits on the Israel thread, so there's that. And in your case, you do it even as you support those who actually give aid and comfort to Jew-haters, which is disappointing.
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We don't dish out anywhere near what's tossed toward our way us by the crowd with stinky turds between their ears, hey?
Poor snowflake
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Well, you and Douchey have been doing your Joseph McCarthy bits on the Israel thread, so there's that. And in your case, you do it even as you support those who actually give aid and comfort to Jew-haters, which is disappointing.
When the new message board is up and running…
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We don't dish out anywhere near what's tossed toward our way us by the crowd with stinky turds between their ears, hey?
(https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Bike-Fall.jpg)
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Poor snowflake
Self defense...nothin' ta cee heer. Move along, hey?
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Shooter reportedly found dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound.
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Shooter reportedly found dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound.
Mfing coward.
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Well, I was thinking that he made two decisions because they were politically expedient for him. He decided to be a big guns-rights person because he felt that's what he needed to get elected in Maine, and now he's suddenly flip-flopped because of this mass shooting spree.
But you're right, Lenny. I don't know the man, and he might be a wonderful person who was genuinely conflicted not once but twice, and both times went with what he really thought was best for humankind. So I probably shouldn't have judged him. And bottom line: I'm glad he flip-flopped, whatever his motivation might have been. He'll be feeling heat from the NRA and gun-worshippers everywhere, so one could even argue that his flip-flop took courage.
As far as communism, socialism, dumb people and all the other fine stuff you talked about -- including your claim that only "the left" calls others names (who knew our own "Douche Canoe" and our beloved dentists were on the left?) -- I'll let that be and others can judge it on its merit.
Fair enough, Mike.
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We don't dish out anywhere near what's tossed toward our way us by the crowd with stinky turds between their ears, hey?
Answer the F’n question:
Why do we lead the world in this?
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Answer the F’n question:
Why do we lead the world in this?
We lead the world in freedom
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Answer the F’n question:
Why do we lead the world in this?
'Cuz da Buffoon has maid everyone nuckin' futz. Drugs flow like pee and there are too many people with stinky brown matta berween der ears. Happy now, hey?
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'Cuz da Buffoon has maid everyone nuckin' futz. Drugs flow like pee and there are too many people with stinky brown matta berween der ears. Happy now, hey?
🤡
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'Cuz da Buffoon has maid everyone nuckin' futz. Drugs flow like pee and there are too many people with stinky brown matta berween der ears. Happy now, hey?
Your deposed Mad King is nuckin' futz. He dines with anti-Semites, has a son-in-law who accepted $2B from Jew-haters, and calls to battle his merry band of violent neo-Nazis for his cop-bashing, democracy-scuttling coup attempts. And yet you, Mr. I'll Never Support Anti-Semites, bends the knee to him. No wonder you couldn't sleep at 3 in the morning.
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Wow. You don’t honestly believe this do you?
Because I don’t blame Trump for Las Vegas, El Paso, Gilroy, etc. Do you?
When a gun man sets up weapons of war in a Las Vegas hotel room and sprays a music festival was it really Donald Trump’s fault? I don’t believe it was. I put the blame on access to weapons of war not the POTUS.
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Wow. You don’t honestly believe this do you?
Because I don’t blame Trump for Las Vegas, El Paso, Gilroy, etc. Do you?
When a gun man sets up weapons of war in a Las Vegas hotel room and sprays a music festival was it really Donald Trump’s fault? I don’t believe it was. I put the blame on access to weapons of war not the POTUS.
He has Fox News/right wing radio brain rot. It’s a deadly affliction that has taken many baby boomers
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'Cuz da Buffoon has maid everyone nuckin' futz. Drugs flow like pee and there are too many people with stinky brown matta berween der ears. Happy now, hey?
Huh.
Add Time Traveler to the list of Dark Brandon's accomplishments.
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Answer the F’n question:
Why do we lead the world in this?
Simple answer- we don't Facts matter
very often after one of these horrible events we come to learn that all the red flags were ignored or laws were not followed
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Simple answer- we don't Facts matter
very often after one of these horrible events we come to learn that all the red flags were ignored or laws were not followed
Keep making excuses.
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Simple answer- we don't Facts matter
very often after one of these horrible events we come to learn that all the red flags were ignored or laws were not followed
Glad you agree we need strong red-flag laws. That would be a decent start!
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Simple answer- we don't Facts matter
very often after one of these horrible events we come to learn that all the red flags were ignored or laws were not followed
This doesn't answer the question, or any question for that matter.
Do other countries not have people with mental illness? Do other countries not have people who don't follow the law?
There's something about this country that makes these kind of events occur far more frequently than anywhere else, and it's not the existence of the mentally ill and people who don't follow the rules.
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'Cuz da Buffoon has maid everyone nuckin' futz. Drugs flow like pee and there are too many people with stinky brown matta berween der ears. Happy now, hey?
America wasn't made great again?
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This doesn't answer the question, or any question for that matter.
Do other countries not have people with mental illness? Do other countries not have people who don't follow the law?
There's something about this country that makes these kind of events occur far more frequently than anywhere else, and it's not the existence of the mentally ill and people who don't follow the rules.
Yep. One side doesn’t want to deal with guns OR mental illness. People like Wellsstreet are growing more and more complicit in people dying. And he seems ok with that. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
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Your deposed Mad King is nuckin' futz. He dines with anti-Semites, has a son-in-law who accepted $2B from Jew-haters, and calls to battle his merry band of violent neo-Nazis for his cop-bashing, democracy-scuttling coup attempts. And yet you, Mr. I'll Never Support Anti-Semites, bends the knee to him. No wonder you couldn't sleep at 3 in the morning.
For the record, I'm up every morning at 3:30 and take an outside walk of 9-10 miles, hey?
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For the record, I'm up every morning at 3:30 and take an outside walk of 9-10 miles, hey?
In the snow, uphill both ways?
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Police across Maine were alerted just last month to “veiled threats” by the U.S. Army reservist who would go on to carry out the worst mass shooting in the state’s history, one of a string of missed red flags that preceded the massacre.
So much for red flag laws. The entire issue has been made into a farce by the NRA and the republicans.
The ONLY answer to reducing mass shootings is to ban assault rifles. Period.
Alas, the NRA and the r’s along with their lying supporters will make sure more assault rifles are in the hands of crazy people.
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In the snow, uphill both ways?
All weather, kin, unless it's lightning, hey?
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For the record, I'm up every morning at 3:30 and take an outside walk of 9-10 miles, hey?
Man, good for you. (not sarcastic)
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/cops-were-sent-maine-gunman-000853668.html
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/cops-were-sent-maine-gunman-000853668.html
Good thing nobody took away his god-given right to own an arsenal of weapons.
1. Right to Bear Arms
Every other U.S. freedom is tied for last in importance.
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Wow. You don’t honestly believe this do you?
Because I don’t blame Trump for Las Vegas, El Paso, Gilroy, etc. Do you?
When a gun man sets up weapons of war in a Las Vegas hotel room and sprays a music festival was it really Donald Trump’s fault? I don’t believe it was. I put the blame on access to weapons of war not the POTUS.
The Palestinians don't have a chance fighting the IDF with their ar15s.
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Good thing nobody took away his god-given right to own an arsenal of weapons.
1. Right to Bear Arms
Every other U.S. freedom is tied for last in importance.
Devil's advocate on this specific instance. If the police would have done what they could have, and used the yellow flag law instead of trusting his brother and dad to take away the guns. This could have been prevented.
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Devil's advocate on this specific instance. If the police would have done what they could have, and used the yellow flag law instead of trusting his brother and dad to take away the guns. This could have been prevented.
Reasonable.
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Good thing nobody took away his god-given right to own an arsenal of weapons.
1. Right to Bear Arms
Every other U.S. freedom is tied for last in importance.
Or as any Constitutional scholar who can quote the entire thing says: “Blah, blah, blah. Everybody gets guns. Blah, blah, blah”.
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From the Washington Post:
LOUISVILLE — About a year before Connor Sturgeon gunned down his co-workers at Old National Bank in April, some close to the 25-year-old knew he was having problems.
He had abruptly turned away from his companions during a family beach vacation and began walking into the ocean, later telling his parents he briefly considered drowning himself.
He had just started seeing a psychiatrist, and his parents thought his new medication might have been the cause of the suicidal thoughts. He had also experienced anxiety attacks at work, where some colleagues recall, he was falling short and frequently absent — a “no call, no show” employee, as one put it.
“He was in over his head,” said one colleague, Dana Mitchell, who had been a mentor to Sturgeon and was shot in the back during his attack.
But his parents say nobody in Sturgeon’s circle knew that on April 4, amid his struggles, he had purchased a gun. His psychiatrist, who had met virtually on April 6 with Sturgeon and his parents, had even indicated he was on the mend, Sturgeon’s parents recall.
“We had been led to believe he was over the hump and he was getting better,” his father, Todd Sturgeon, told The Washington Post. “We thought everything was okay.”
Then came the massacre.
On April 10, Sturgeon brought an AR-15 rifle into the downtown bank branch where he worked and began shooting — killing five and wounding eight before being shot and killed by a police officer.
While few details have emerged publicly about what motivated Sturgeon to kill, interviews with survivors, victims’ families and Sturgeon’s parents reveal frustration, sorrow and anger over how easy it had been for someone with apparent mental health problems to obtain a semiautomatic rifle built for mass violence. The interviews found that, six months after Sturgeon’s assault, those involved are struggling to understand why Sturgeon took aim at his co-workers and whether it could have been prevented.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/louisville-mental-health-guns-ar-15/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most
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Devil's advocate on this specific instance. If the police would have done what they could have, and used the yellow flag law instead of trusting his brother and dad to take away the guns. This could have been prevented.
More on this from the NYT:
Six weeks before an Army reservist fatally shot 18 people in Lewiston, Maine, the police received alarming warnings that the reservist had grown increasingly paranoid, had punched a friend and had said he was going to carry out a shooting spree. But no law enforcement officials ever made contact with him, according to records released on Monday.
The warnings about the reservist, Robert R. Card II, 40, were far more explicit than Maine officials have publicly acknowledged in the wake of Wednesday’s shooting, America’s deadliest mass shooting this year. They came from Mr. Card’s family members and his Army Reserve unit in Saco, Maine, and were investigated by the Sheriff’s Office in Sagadahoc County, where he lived.
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Who could’ve guessed?!?!
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Today's "The Morning" email newsletter from the NYT:
American gun violence can feel like an unsolvable problem, with every mass shooting, like last week’s killings in Maine, affirming that the situation is getting worse. But the U.S. has in fact made some progress over the past few decades, enacting policies that have saved lives.
That is the conclusion of a new study by Patrick Sharkey and Megan Kang at Princeton. Stricter gun laws passed by 40 states from 1991 to 2016 reduced gun deaths by nearly 4,300 in 2016, or about 10 percent of the nationwide total. States with stricter laws, such as background checks and waiting periods, consistently had fewer gun deaths, as this chart by my colleague Ashley Wu shows:
(https://ecp.yusercontent.com/mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic01.nyt.com%2Fimages%2F2023%2F10%2F17%2Fbriefing%2FoakImage-1697556430700%2FoakImage-1697556430700-jumbo.png&t=1698847819&ymreqid=3c8d0d78-3338-e941-1c7e-f907e6011a00&sig=A5JIVV.e.g4.VGRwbJHEXA--~D)
Sharkey told me that the results had surprised him. He has studied violent crime for years, and did not believe that stricter gun laws had a major effect in reducing it. His new takeaway: “The challenge of gun violence is not intractable, and in fact we have just lived through a period of enormous progress that was driven by public policy.”
The country’s progress on guns may surprise you, too. It certainly surprised me. It’s worth reflecting on why. If the data is clear, why haven’t we heard more about these outcomes? To my mind, the lack of attention shows the narrow view that many of us often take toward gun policy.
The national conversation about gun violence focuses on big federal policy ideas. Activists and pundits often speak about the need for a federal law enacting universal background checks or banning assault weapons. Anything short of action at the national level will fail to make the U.S. as safe as Canada, Europe or Japan, the argument goes.
It’s true that guns kill many more people in the U.S. than in other rich countries, and America will likely remain an outlier for the foreseeable future. But the study by Sharkey and Kang shows that changes at the state level can have an effect. Even policies that seem limited, like safety-training requirements or age restrictions, add up.
“There’s no single policy that is going to eliminate the flow or circulation of guns within and across states,” Sharkey said. “But the idea is these kinds of regulations accumulate.”
After all, America’s gun problem is rooted in easy access to firearms. In every country, people get into arguments, hold racist views or suffer from mental health issues. But when these problems turn violent, quick access to guns makes that violence much more likely to become lethal.
Anything that adds barriers to picking up a firearm in such moments reduces deaths, whether it’s incremental state policies or broader federal laws. The new study is one part of a broader line of research demonstrating that point.
Among the many new laws put in place since 1991: California required background checks on private gun sales in 1991, Massachusetts tightened child-access laws in 1998 and Virginia restricted gun ownership by people with mental illnesses in 2008.
There is a major caveat to the progress that Sharkey and Kang documented: It seems to have ended.
The new study cuts off in 2016 because later data was not available at the time of the research, Sharkey said. Since 2016, many states have loosened their gun laws, in some cases because Supreme Court rulings have forced them to do so. And firearms sales have surged, particularly during the Covid pandemic.
Congress did pass a narrow gun control law last year that extended background checks and funded anti-violence policies, and some states have continued tightening gun laws. On net, though, U.S. gun laws have become looser in the past seven years.
Gun deaths have increased over the same period, and mass shootings have become more common. These trends — a rise in deaths, looser laws and increased firearm purchases — are likely related, Sharkey said. He pointed out that the six states that had weakened their gun laws from 1991 to 2016 appeared to have experienced more gun deaths than other factors suggested they should have.
As more states have loosened their laws in recent years, they have set themselves up for more gun deaths. “If states take basic steps to regulate guns, it will save thousands and thousands of lives,” Sharkey said. The opposite is also true.
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One thing Malcolm Gladwell talked about that I hadn't thought about before is that sometimes homicide rate or death rates improve as a result of improved medical/trauma care in a geographic region rather than other factors and that frequently isn't discussed.
So, rather than death rates or homicide rates, we should look at regulations compared to gun violence instead.
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So to put Mike’s post at its simplest:
Red states = more murders.
Blue states = less murders.
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'Merica
A New York man allegedly pointed a gun at the head of a 6-year-old boy who had dropped off a Halloween goody bag at the wrong home and went to retrieve it, police said.
Michael Yifan Wen, 43, of Manhasset, was arrested and charged with menacing and second-degree endangering the welfare of a child, Nassau County police said in a statement. [/i
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-allegedly-points-gun-6-year-old-left-halloween-goody-bag-wrong-hou-rcna123025]
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'Merica
A New York man allegedly pointed a gun at the head of a 6-year-old boy who had dropped off a Halloween goody bag at the wrong home and went to retrieve it, police said.
Michael Yifan Wen, 43, of Manhasset, was arrested and charged with menacing and second-degree endangering the welfare of a child, Nassau County police said in a statement. [/i
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-allegedly-points-gun-6-year-old-left-halloween-goody-bag-wrong-hou-rcna123025]
Look he was a good guy with a gun... now he's an example of a bad guy with a gun and why that kid needed to have his own gun. Obviously.
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'Merica
A New York man allegedly pointed a gun at the head of a 6-year-old boy who had dropped off a Halloween goody bag at the wrong home and went to retrieve it, police said.
Michael Yifan Wen, 43, of Manhasset, was arrested and charged with menacing and second-degree endangering the welfare of a child, Nassau County police said in a statement. [/i
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-allegedly-points-gun-6-year-old-left-halloween-goody-bag-wrong-hou-rcna123025]
Well, they did take away his gun license (hopefully that means the police can go through his house to look for any guns). Will be curious to see how long it takes him to get it back.
I read the yahoo article as well. This part I think is great:
Michael Yifan Wen, a resident of the infamous Long Island, has been arrested for allegedly pointing his gun at a young boy.
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Well, they did take away his gun license (hopefully that means the police can go through his house to look for any guns). Will be curious to see how long it takes him to get it back.
I read the yahoo article as well. This part I think is great:
Michael Yifan Wen, a resident of the infamous Long Island, has been arrested for allegedly pointing his gun at a young boy.
If the kid had a gun to protect himself, it wouldn’t have been a big deal but not we want to cancel this guy for protecting his house from a 6 year old
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If the kid had a gun to protect himself, it wouldn’t have been a big deal but not we want to cancel this guy for protecting his house from a 6 year old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOE4PbprCEo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOE4PbprCEo)
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https://news.yahoo.com/shadow-loss-mothers-long-search-120453015.html
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If a “journalist” isn’t using terminology such as sexpot or blonde bimbo, can we really trust it?
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If a “journalist” isn’t using terminology such as sexpot or blonde bimbo, can we really trust it?
That’s for you to decide, Golden Eagle JB
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Army Ammunition Plant Is Tied to Mass Shootings Across the U.S.: The site was built for the military, but commercial sales are booming with little public accountability. Rounds have been bought by murderers, antigovernment groups and others.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/us/army-ammunition-factory-shootings.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231112&instance_id=107544&nl=the-morning®i_id=108420427&segment_id=149815&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
Christopher Hixon, a 27-year veteran of the Navy who served in the Persian Gulf, trained with government ammunition that typically had a distinctive “LC” marking on its brass casings.
In 2018, Mr. Hixon, then the athletic director at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., confronted a former student firing an AR-15-style gun. The semiautomatic rifle, modeled on a military weapon, was loaded with ammunition carrying the same “LC” stamp.
Mr. Hixon took a bullet in a thigh. Two more hit him in the chest. In the bloodstained hallway where he died, investigators found a brass casing. And another. By the end of their search, they had collected 84 from across the school — each marked “LC.”
The initials stand for the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. Built during World War II, the federal site, in Independence, Mo., has made nearly all the rifle cartridges used by the U.S. military since it pulled out of Vietnam.
In recent years, the factory has also pumped billions of rounds of military-grade ammunition into the commercial market, an investigation by The New York Times found, leaving the “LC” signature scattered across crime scenes, including the sites of some of the nation’s most heinous mass shootings.
The plant, operated by a private contractor with Army oversight, is now one of the country’s biggest manufacturers of commercial rounds for the popular AR-15, and it remains so even as the United States supplies ammunition to Ukraine.
The vast majority of Lake City rounds sold by retailers have gone to law-abiding citizens, from hunters and farmers to target shooters. Some are drawn to them because they are made with the same materials and often to the same specifications as the military’s, while others see them as an authentic accessory for their tactical weapons and gear.
But more than one million pages of search warrants, police evidence logs, ballistic reports, forfeiture records and court proceedings compiled by The Times provide a sweeping accounting of how Lake City ammunition, once intended for war, has also cut a criminal path across towns and cities in nearly all 50 states.
A former Marine used Lake City rounds in the murder of two police officers and a deputy sheriff in Louisiana. The police recovered spent Lake City casings after a former justice of the peace killed a Texas district attorney and his wife. In Washington, a barrage of gang-related gunfire left the courtyard of an apartment complex littered with more than 40 “LC” casings and a 10-year-old girl dead.
In May, a high school student armed with ammunition from the plant rampaged through a residential neighborhood in Farmington, N.M., killing three and injuring six.
Lake City rounds have been seized from drug dealers, violent felons, antigovernment groups, rioters at the U.S. Capitol and smugglers for Mexican cartels. They were confiscated from a man in Massachusetts who threatened to assassinate President Barack Obama and from a man at Los Angeles International Airport after he fired at a civilian and three T.S.A. agents, killing one.