I know I start threads too much but this seems like an important one to separate from the college hoops thread. I'm having a hard time believing there isn't going to be some fall out from this whole thing and before the NCAA tournament.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 22, 2023, 07:21:12 AM
I know I start threads too much but this seems like an important one to separate from the college hoops thread. I'm having a hard time believing there isn't going to be some fall out from this whole thing and before the NCAA tournament.
Disagree.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 22, 2023, 07:37:04 AM
Disagree.
Something is missing here. Dude brings a gun to the murderer, and his car prevents the victim from leaving. However, he meets with police multiple times and no charges were ever filed.
Would love to know what the DA knows.
This story can't be going away this easily, it's got to have more legs. At the very least, there has to be a LOT more explaining on why Miller wasn't viewed as culpable or even involved.
I expect minimum of 3 more comments, retractions, clarifications from Oats before the end of the week.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on February 22, 2023, 07:40:42 AM
Something is missing here. Dude brings a gun to the murderer, and his car prevents the victim from leaving. However, he meets with police multiple times and no charges were ever filed.
Would love to know what the DA knows.
Quote from: thebigjake on February 22, 2023, 07:55:04 AM
This story can't be going away this easily, it's got to have more legs. At the very least, there has to be a LOT more explaining on why Miller wasn't viewed as culpable or even involved.
Agree with you two, but attorney/client privilege may prevent anything info to the public. I
almost applied for MU Law School after graduating many decades ago and, with 20/20 hindsight, probably should have.
One reason is that I
totally get the concept that the law/court system simply isn't necessarily fair/right, according to citizens honestly questioning the rulings. Kudos to DA's who do what they can, but they cannot rewrite the laws that they have to deal with.
Quote from: MU_B on February 22, 2023, 08:02:18 AM
I expect minimum of 3 more comments, retractions, clarifications from Oats before the end of the week.
You mean beyond: "We can't control everything someone does after practice".
Oats' initial response was reprehensible. His follow-up damage control wasn't much better.
If Miller literally does anything else but bring a gun to the scene a young woman would still be alive and a young child would still have a mother.
If Alabama had any balls Miller wouldn't play another minute for them but they don't.
Since Oats knew for over a month, I am wondering what he told his boss then, right before they gave him a contract extension.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 22, 2023, 08:17:40 AM
Oats' initial response was reprehensible. His follow-up damage control wasn't much better.
If Miller literally does anything else but bring a gun to the scene a young woman would still be alive and a young child would still have a mother.
If Alabama had any balls Miller wouldn't play another minute for them but they don't.
Agree, especially your last sentence. I love bball but no way in Hell should it ever come first. Yet that seems to be Alabama's MO on sports.
Quote from: lawdog77 on February 22, 2023, 08:19:17 AM
Since Oats knew for over a month, I am wondering what he told his boss then, right before they gave him a contract extension.
Excellent point lawdog.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 22, 2023, 08:48:27 AM
Excellent point lawdog.
I'll go out on a limb and say the athletic department as whole was well aware of the circumstances
U. of Alabama has always been a totally classy institution.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on February 22, 2023, 08:52:24 AM
U. of Alabama has always been a totally classy institution.
This, too
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on February 22, 2023, 07:40:42 AM
Something is missing here. Dude brings a gun to the murderer, and his car prevents the victim from leaving. However, he meets with police multiple times and no charges were ever filed.
Would love to know what the DA knows.
My understanding is Miller brought Miles Miles's gun. miles then gave it to Davis to shoot someone. At the time, two cars were blocking the street one was Miller's and the other car belonged to another teammate. It wasn't an intentional boxing someone in scenario.
I don't believe bringing someone their own property is crime. It would also be hard to show that Miller had any idea what was going to happen since he wasn't on the scene until he was asked to bring the gun.
All that said, Alabama should still suspend all players involved and Oats for a minimum of being stupid.
I'd say we should probably let the Justice system handle it eh?
Quote from: #UnleashSean on February 22, 2023, 09:28:55 AM
I'd say we should probably let the Justice system handle it eh?
Yes, when has our justice system ever let us down?
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 22, 2023, 09:32:42 AM
Yes, when has our justice system ever let us down?
You're not wrong, but what's the alternative to letting the justice system deal with it?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 22, 2023, 09:36:42 AM
You're not wrong, but what's the alternative to letting the justice system deal with it?
Bingo!
There's nothing more that the justice system in Alabam would love to do than send a young colored boy to prison except this boy is leading them to basketball glory this year. Roll Tide!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 22, 2023, 09:36:42 AM
You're not wrong, but what's the alternative to letting the justice system deal with it?
First, it's bizarre to me that there is nothing Miller can be charged with simply because he didn't own the gun and it was a hockey assist in terms of who it handed to. He bears responsibility for someone's death.
I'm speaking more towards the fact that Miller isn't even facing any consequences from Alabama. He shouldn't play another minute for that team.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 09:24:15 AM
My understanding is Miller brought Miles Miles's gun. miles then gave it to Davis to shoot someone. At the time, two cars were blocking the street one was Miller's and the other car belonged to another teammate. It wasn't an intentional boxing someone in scenario.
I don't believe bringing someone their own property is crime. It would also be hard to show that Miller had any idea what was going to happen since he wasn't on the scene until he was asked to bring the gun.
All that said, Alabama should still suspend all players involved and Oats for a minimum of being stupid.
If you are asked to bring someone a gun, you don't think you have any idea what's going to happen once you bring them the gun?
Quote from: #UnleashSean on February 22, 2023, 09:28:55 AM
I'd say we should probably let the Justice system handle it eh?
Any criminal matters? Absolutely. But the university has power and a responsibility here too. I'm not going to pretend to know all of the facts, but based on what is publicly available, Miller (and probably the other freshman too) shouldn't have been playing basketball these past few months.
Do you think Oats let Ray Lewis know his other players were involved when he turned to him for advice? What a joke.
If the backlash is enough to get Miller (and others) suspended for the rest of the season, I wouldn't hate for Bama to be the 1 or 2 seed in MU's bracket. But that seems unlikely given that it's Alabama.
Oats is a dirtbag. Thank God, we got Shaka..
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 22, 2023, 09:39:56 AM
First, it's bizarre to me that there is nothing Miller can be charged with simply because he didn't own the gun and it was a hockey assist in terms of who it handed to. He bears responsibility for someone's death.
I'm speaking more towards the fact that Miller isn't even facing any consequences from Alabama. He shouldn't play another minute for that team.
Legally, I could see enough deniablity....Didn't know what the gun would be used for (protection v attack), he didn't mean to box anyone in, didn't know the whole situation, not a crime to bring someone their property, etc.
But, my god, whatever happened to "it is a privilege, not a right, to wear the uniform" talk. The only reason I think he wasn't suspended is you can't just suspend him for being involved in a murder. It was either cut him or sweep it under the rug. You can't exactly say "5 games feels about right since this woman died as a result of his actions"
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 22, 2023, 09:52:16 AM
If you are asked to bring someone a gun, you don't think you have any idea what's going to happen once you bring them the gun?
I think there's an inference to be had there, but can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt what was going on inside Miller's head? I think a case like this would require some kind of admission that Miller knew or had reason to believe the gun would be used for a crime.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2023, 11:56:13 AM
I think there's an inference to be had there, but can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt what was going on inside Miller's head? I think a case like this would require some kind of admission that Miller knew or had reason to believe the gun would be used for a crime.
You have a point.
Maybe he thought he was going hunting.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 22, 2023, 12:01:58 PM
You have a point.
Maybe he thought he was going hunting.
LOL.
Quote from: Scoop Snoop on February 22, 2023, 08:03:21 AM
Agree with you two, but attorney/client privilege may prevent anything info to the public. I almost applied for MU Law School after graduating many decades ago and, with 20/20 hindsight, probably should have. One reason is that I totally get the concept that the law/court system simply isn't necessarily fair/right, according to citizens honestly questioning the rulings. Kudos to DA's who do what they can, but they cannot rewrite the laws that they have to deal with.
my dude, it's always a good decision not to go to law school
Quote from: warriorchick on February 22, 2023, 12:01:58 PM
You have a point.
Maybe he thought he was going hunting.
"I need my joint a n****r rl jus got fakin" was the text Miles sent to Miller. I understand that this still might not be enough for legal charges, but from a University disciplinary standpoint, I think it's pretty clear that Miller knew his buddy was in some type of altercation and wanted his gun. Not quite just returning a possession to his pal.
I see a civil suit coming a few days after draft day. If it were my family member killed, I would do that.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 22, 2023, 09:52:16 AM
If you are asked to bring someone a gun, you don't think you have any idea what's going to happen once you bring them the gun?
From a criminal standpoint, it would be hard to prove which is why they don't know what they can charge him with. if they could show he knew why the guy was asking for the gun then I think we would have a different story.
I have friends who have guns if they asked me to bring them it I wouldn't assume they were going to shoot someone because my friends don't shoot people. Maybe they want to show it off, maybe they want to sell it, maybe they forgot it and carry frequently. All plausible reasons beyond a shadow of doubt.
From a Civil perspective, that is a different story. I wouldn't be surprised if after signing a large NBA contract he gets sued.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 22, 2023, 09:39:56 AM
First, it's bizarre to me that there is nothing Miller can be charged with simply because he didn't own the gun and it was a hockey assist in terms of who it handed to. He bears responsibility for someone's death.
I'm speaking more towards the fact that Miller isn't even facing any consequences from Alabama. He shouldn't play another minute for that team.
I currently have someone elses 30-06 in my possession. If they asked me to bring it to them and when I delivered it and they turned around and shot someone, I should face consequences? What exactly did I do that was illegal?
Those are the facts that we know, and you are attempting to punish him based off those facts.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on February 22, 2023, 01:58:47 PM
I currently have someone elses 30-06 in my possession. If they asked me to bring it to them and when I delivered it and they turned around and shot someone, I should face consequences? What exactly did I do that was illegal?
Those are the facts that we know, and you are attempting to punish him based off those facts.
I'm not advocating for Miller to be charged as an accessory, but did you actually read the text message?
Quote from: #UnleashSean on February 22, 2023, 01:58:47 PM
I currently have someone elses 30-06 in my possession. If they asked me to bring it to them and when I delivered it and they turned around and shot someone, I should face consequences? What exactly did I do that was illegal?
Those are the facts that we know, and you are attempting to punish him based off those facts.
Strange you didn't mention the text he received, the additional context, the fact that his car was potentially blocking in the vehicle the victim was in.
Yeah, I don't think someone should have the privilege of playing D1 basketball after his actions and the aftermath.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 22, 2023, 02:08:52 PM
Strange you didn't mention the text he received, the additional context, the fact that his car was potentially blocking in the vehicle the victim was in.
Yeah, I don't think someone should have the privilege of playing D1 basketball after his actions and the aftermath.
Or coaching D1 basketball after knowing about this for a month.
Quote from: #UnleashSean on February 22, 2023, 01:58:47 PM
I currently have someone elses 30-06 in my possession. If they asked me to bring it to them and when I delivered it and they turned around and shot someone, I should face consequences? What exactly did I do that was illegal?
Those are the facts that we know, and you are attempting to punish him based off those facts.
Now what if they texted you "bring me my gun, my wife is acting up again and I'm tired of her"
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2023, 11:56:13 AM
I think there's an inference to be had there, but can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt what was going on inside Miller's head? I think a case like this would require some kind of admission that Miller knew or had reason to believe the gun would be used for a crime.
Riggghhhht. I am sure we all would snap to when a friend calls us to bring his gun to a bar/nightclub/restaurant
Quote from: JakeBarnes on February 22, 2023, 02:48:31 PM
Now what if they texted you "bring me my gun, my wife is acting up again and I'm tired of her"
But again, the guy who texted him wasn't the shooter. Which is why he isn't facing legal consequences.
But there is no way he should be playing for Alabama. I actually think the entire team should be done for the year.
Nate Oats lost all his credibility over this, Miller should be released from Alabama. Not sure why he has a gun on campus, then give it to someone else is egregious. What did the dude expect?
Not sure why you're all assuming he was told to bring the gun. Isn't it possible he was told to bring a bag or jacket or box, which contained a gun? Or maybe it was in the car? Lots of speculation here.
If the authorities have decided he shouldn't be charged, he was probably unaware of what he was getting into.
nm
https://twitter.com/JournoRyan/status/1628502011317563392?cxt=HHwWgMC9ye_8zJktAAAA
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 22, 2023, 02:08:52 PM
Strange you didn't mention the text he received, the additional context, the fact that his car was potentially blocking in the vehicle the victim was in.
Yeah, I don't think someone should have the privilege of playing D1 basketball after his actions and the aftermath.
I think we're talking about two different issues here.
As far as I can tell, nobody here has suggested that Miller shouldn't face some kind of university punishment, including being removed from the team.
But Sean and I are discussing the criminal law as it pertains to this situation. To prove something like accessory to murder, you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Miller acted knowingly, i.e. he handed over the gun knowing it would be used to shoot someone. How do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt without some kind of admission from him or, maybe, a witness testifying Miller knew? A text that says someone "rl jus got fakin" isn't going to cut it. I'm not up on all the slang today, but I don't think you're going to convince a jury that "jus got fakin" means "I'm going to shoot someone."
As for the car blocking the victim's vehicle, Miller's side says he was parked there first and the victim pulled up behind his car, not vice versa.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on February 22, 2023, 03:23:51 PM
Not sure why you're all assuming he was told to bring the gun. Isn't it possible he was told to bring a bag or jacket or box, which contained a gun? Or maybe it was in the car? Lots of speculation here.
If the authorities have decided he shouldn't be charged, he was probably unaware of what he was getting into.
Miles texted Miller to bring his gun. That's why we're making this assumption.
If this happened at Marquette, some type of punishment would have been done
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
I think we're talking about two different issues here.
As far as I can tell, nobody here has suggested that Miller shouldn't face some kind of university punishment, including being removed from the team.
But Sean and I are discussing the criminal law as it pertains to this situation. To prove something like accessory to murder, you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Miller acted knowingly, i.e. he handed over the gun knowing it would be used to shoot someone. How do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt without some kind of admission from him or, maybe, a witness testifying Miller knew? A text that says someone "rl jus got fakin" isn't going to cut it. I'm not up on all the slang today, but I don't think you're going to convince a jury that "jus got fakin" means "I'm going to shoot someone."
As for the car blocking the victim's vehicle, Miller's side says he was parked there first and the victim pulled up behind his car, not vice versa.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
I think we're talking about two different issues here.
As far as I can tell, nobody here has suggested that Miller shouldn't face some kind of university punishment, including being removed from the team.
But Sean and I are discussing the criminal law as it pertains to this situation. To prove something like accessory to murder, you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Miller acted knowingly, i.e. he handed over the gun knowing it would be used to shoot someone. How do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt without some kind of admission from him or, maybe, a witness testifying Miller knew? A text that says someone "rl jus got fakin" isn't going to cut it. I'm not up on all the slang today, but I don't think you're going to convince a jury that "jus got fakin" means "I'm going to shoot someone."
As for the car blocking the victim's vehicle, Miller's side says he was parked there first and the victim pulled up behind his car, not vice versa.
I believe they have this all on surveillance from a bar.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 22, 2023, 03:29:30 PM
https://twitter.com/JournoRyan/status/1628502011317563392?cxt=HHwWgMC9ye_8zJktAAAA
If this is true this changes any perceived involvement by Miller. Also explains how he got there so fast after receiving a text which I was wondering about. If I am just on my couch and someone asks me to bring them something I don't get it and get there fast enough for them to still be angry.
the context of the gun already being in the car without Miller's knowledge and that he was already on his way to get Miles so there is even less grounds to charge him on. Earlier reports made it sound like Miller's intent was to bring the gun when this doesn't.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2023, 03:36:32 PM
I think we're talking about two different issues here.
As far as I can tell, nobody here has suggested that Miller shouldn't face some kind of university punishment, including being removed from the team.
But Sean and I are discussing the criminal law as it pertains to this situation. To prove something like accessory to murder, you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Miller acted knowingly, i.e. he handed over the gun knowing it would be used to shoot someone. How do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt without some kind of admission from him or, maybe, a witness testifying Miller knew? A text that says someone "rl jus got fakin" isn't going to cut it. I'm not up on all the slang today, but I don't think you're going to convince a jury that "jus got fakin" means "I'm going to shoot someone."
As for the car blocking the victim's vehicle, Miller's side says he was parked there first and the victim pulled up behind his car, not vice versa.
Of course there's a difference between punishment via the law and the university. What I'm saying is the hypothetical scenario Sean painted of himself giving a gun to someone else vs. Miller doing so based on my understanding of the details are very different, IMO.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 03:44:59 PM
If this is true this changes any perceived involvement by Miller. Also explains how he got there so fast after receiving a text which I was wondering about. If I am just on my couch and someone asks me to bring them something I don't get it and get there fast enough for them to still be angry.
the context of the gun already being in the car without Miller's knowledge and that he was already on his way to get Miles so there is even less grounds to charge him on. Earlier reports made it sound like Miller's intent was to bring the gun when this doesn't.
Miles asked for his gun and Miller drove his car with the gun to Miles. So it certainly seems like Miller knew the gun was in the car.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 03:44:59 PM
If this is true this changes any perceived involvement by Miller. Also explains how he got there so fast after receiving a text which I was wondering about. If I am just on my couch and someone asks me to bring them something I don't get it and get there fast enough for them to still be angry.
the context of the gun already being in the car without Miller's knowledge and that he was already on his way to get Miles so there is even less grounds to charge him on. Earlier reports made it sound like Miller's intent was to bring the gun when this doesn't.
Hmmmmmm.......
Quote from: marqfan22 on February 22, 2023, 03:42:05 PM
If this happened at Marquette, some type of punishment would have been done
Maybe.
Marquette hasn't always been the model of transparency and forthrightness when it comes to student-athletes committing potentially criminal acts.
Quote from: LAZER on February 22, 2023, 03:57:43 PM
Miles asked for his gun and Miller drove his car with the gun to Miles. So it certainly seems like Miller knew the gun was in the car.
Or Miller was already on his way and Miles texted him to bring it and since he was driving he didn't see the text or fully understand the ask or didn't know that it was in his car. Miles then goes to the back seat and gets it. Miller didn't hand it to him and didnt "get it" and bring it to him.
Miles also texted him earlier asking for Miller to come and get him. miller said he couldn't but would later. This indicates Miller was already on the way when he gets the text. Also says Miller wasn't blocking the street so it doesn't appear that he was in on the plan.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 04:05:57 PM
Or Miller was already on his way and Miles texted him to bring it and since he was driving he didn't see the text or fully understand the ask or didn't know that it was in his car. Miles then goes to the back seat and gets it. Miller didn't hand it to him and didnt "get it" and bring it to him.
Miles also texted him earlier asking for Miller to come and get him. miller said he couldn't but would later. This indicates Miller was already on the way when he gets the text. Also says Miller wasn't blocking the street so it doesn't appear that he was in on the plan.
Brandon Miller would never text and drive!
point plankn
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 04:05:57 PM
Or Miller was already on his way and Miles texted him to bring it and since he was driving he didn't see the text or fully understand the ask or didn't know that it was in his car. Miles then goes to the back seat and gets it. Miller didn't hand it to him and didnt "get it" and bring it to him.
Miles also texted him earlier asking for Miller to come and get him. miller said he couldn't but would later. This indicates Miller was already on the way when he gets the text. Also says Miller wasn't blocking the street so it doesn't appear that he was in on the plan.
This isn't from an independent source though. It does sound like there's some video to corroborate or not.
Quote from: LAZER on February 22, 2023, 03:57:43 PM
Miles asked for his gun and Miller drove his car with the gun to Miles. So it certainly seems like Miller knew the gun was in the car.
Yep. This statement is pretty clear that Miller:
(1) knew he had brought a gun to Miles*
(2) was present when gunfire erupted
(3) didn't report this to anyone until the police contacted him
That alone should have been reason enough to suspend as soon as AD/Oats became aware.
* The statement artfully mentions he never saw or handled the weapon but avoids saying he didn't know it was there. In fact, it's pretty clear that he did know based on the reference to not knowing that illegal activity would occur with the weapon.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 22, 2023, 03:29:30 PM
https://twitter.com/JournoRyan/status/1628502011317563392?cxt=HHwWgMC9ye_8zJktAAAA
This is why freshmen shouldn't have cars on campus.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 22, 2023, 02:56:04 PM
Riggghhhht. I am sure we all would snap to when a friend calls us to bring his gun to a bar/nightclub/restaurant
I would. Read the constitution
Quote from: lostpassword on February 22, 2023, 04:21:50 PM
Yep. This statement is pretty clear that Miller:
(1) knew he had brought a gun to Miles*
(2) was present when gunfire erupted
(3) didn't report this to anyone until the police contacted him
That alone should have been reason enough to suspend as soon as AD/Oats became aware.
* The statement artfully mentions he never saw or handled the weapon but avoids saying he didn't know it was there. In fact, it's pretty clear that he did know based on the reference to not knowing that illegal activity would occur with the weapon.
Didn't the text exchange have Miller responding to the guy who asked for the gun saying "the heat is in the hat and there's one in the head (meaning chamber)" or something like that? I thought that's what I read yesterday. If that's the case he not only knew about the gun but knew it was loaded.
I would think by knowingly bringing a loaded gun somewhere you'd think sh!t was about to go down and you couldn't really play the "I didn't know" card
Quote from: LAZER on February 22, 2023, 04:12:24 PM
Brandon Miller would never text and drive!
I know you are trying really hard because he is an Alabama guy but look at the timeline and try to be impartial.
Text was sent to Miller at 1:40 and the dispatch came into the police at 1:45. It seems highly implausible that Miller was doing something, got the text, got back into his car, got back over to Miles, shots fired, call to the police in under 5 minutes. There hasn't been any indication that Miller acknowledged or responded he would be right there with the gun ie "Got it BRT" which would be super easy to text while driving.
Seems more likely Miller was already driving to the scene with the intent of picking up his friend because he previously got the text requesting to be picked up and was already nearby when the text about the gun comes in and Miles has enough time to get it, get it to Davis to then shoot someone.
The part of the release that indicates lack of knowledge of the gun in the car was it being state "it is our understanding it was concealed under clothes." This indicates Miller didn't know that it was there; however; the "it is our understanding" is lawyer speak for our client told us and we don't know for sure. The knowledge of whether the gun was in the car becomes somewhat moot with the intent to pick up a friend. It happens all too fast for the intent to be bring the gun.
I also acknowledge that this is Miller's lawyer who isn't going to be impartial but there is also video evidence which the police have seen and indicates that Miller shouldn't be charged.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 22, 2023, 03:22:27 PM
Nate Oats lost all his credibility over this, Miller should be released from Alabama. Not sure why he has a gun on campus, then give it to someone else is egregious. What did the dude expect?
Because guns are good. They prevent crime. Miller was just trying to keep Alabama safe.
Quote from: swoopem on February 22, 2023, 04:48:33 PM
Didn't the text exchange have Miller responding to the guy who asked for the gun saying "the heat is in the hat and there's one in the head (meaning chamber)" or something like that? I thought that's what I read yesterday. If that's the case he not only knew about the gun but knew it was loaded.
I would think by knowingly bringing a loaded gun somewhere you'd think sh!t was about to go down and you couldn't really play the "I didn't know" card
No. The text to Miller was "bring my joint guy fakin". Miles, owner of the gun and ex-teammate, gets it and as he is handing it to Davis is overheard saying or testified to saying heat is in the hat and there's one in the head.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 05:00:40 PM
No. The text to Miller was "bring my joint guy fakin". Miles, owner of the gun and ex-teammate, gets it and as he is handing it to Davis is overheard saying or testified to saying heat is in the hat and there's one in the head.
Got it. That makes more sense for Miller saying he didn't know
Quote from: BallBoy on February 22, 2023, 04:51:34 PM
.....the release that indicates lack of knowledge of the gun in the car was it being state "it is our understanding it was concealed under clothes." This indicates Miller didn't know that it was there......
This is not what it says. It says he never saw or handled the gun. It never says he didn't know it was there which is a pretty glaring omission if in fact he didn't know. The comment about it being under clothes is all misdirection.
----
Quote 1:Brandon never saw the handgun nor handled it. Further, it is our understanding that the weapon was concelaed under some clothing in the back seat of his car".
----
Quote 2:Brandon never touched the gun, was not involved in its exchange to Mr. Davis in any way, and never knew that illegal activity involving the gun would occur.
----
If he didn't know the gun was there, come out on record and say that. He has a pretty crummy lawyer writing his statement if he didn't know it was there. My guess is it is already on record that he knew about the gun.
I've changed my opinion on the case a bit. I admit to originally thinking it was his weapon. But reading the statements and information released in the last day or two, even cutting through the CYA, I'm more inclined to believe he wasn't an active accessory to it all. Especially now that the using his car to block the victims car has been debunked.
There is some stupidity and some putting of himself in a bad situation, but not to the "shut the team down for the year" level.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 22, 2023, 04:38:57 PM
I would. Read the constitution
The whole country is a well regulated militia
Quote from: JWags85 on February 22, 2023, 05:54:27 PM
I've changed my opinion on the case a bit. I admit to originally thinking it was his weapon. But reading the statements and information released in the last day or two, even cutting through the CYA, I'm more inclined to believe he wasn't an active accessory to it all. Especially now that the using his car to block the victims car has been debunked.
There is some stupidity and some putting of himself in a bad situation, but not to the "shut the team down for the year" level.
I agree based upon the attorney's statement.
I also take into account the statment is not given under oath or as official court statement. Simply relaying all or some of the infomation given to him. He is bound to say and do anything to portray his client in the best light possible.
Quote from: lostpassword on February 22, 2023, 05:20:09 PM
This is not what it says. It says he never saw or handled the gun. It never says he didn't know it was there which is a pretty glaring omission if in fact he didn't know. The comment about it being under clothes is all misdirection.
----
Quote 1:
Brandon never saw the handgun nor handled it. Further, it is our understanding that the weapon was concelaed under some clothing in the back seat of his car".
----
Quote 2:
Brandon never touched the gun, was not involved in its exchange to Mr. Davis in any way, and never knew that illegal activity involving the gun would occur.
----
If he didn't know the gun was there, come out on record and say that. He has a pretty crummy lawyer writing his statement if he didn't know it was there. My guess is it is already on record that he knew about the gun.
Indicates: suggest as a desirable or necessary course of action.
If the guy never saw it, never touched it, it was concealed, didn't know it was going to be used the lawyer is suggesting a lack of knowledge. Whether he knew at the time he arrived that Miles had requested his gun has not been shown. It has been shown that Miller was there to pick them up. The only way he could have known under the above conditions is if Miles stated "I am leaving my gun in your car"
Also not shown is if Miller gave Miles and Davis a ride home which could be seen as a getaway and knowledge that something was going to happen. If Miller was waiting the intent of helping them getaway after their crime it would suggest he knew what was going to happen. If he drove off without them it would suggest he didn't know. At this point Davis has been shot so hard to explain why you drove off with a guy involved in a shooting and is bleeding in your car and you never notified the police.
people are talking about suspending the player permanently, firing his coach, ending his teams season for something which has not been shown to involve the team, coach or whether the player did anything with intent. This isn't like the Baylor situation where after the shooting the coach tried to hide or obfuscate his illegal payments to the player by claiming he was a drug dealer.
as I mentioned in my first post, I would suspend him for being stupid for a few games and if more information comes out then take further action but as of right now.
More importantly this shouldn't be getting attention because of basketball but a young person getting killed is too common place.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 22, 2023, 12:01:58 PM
You have a point.
Maybe he thought he was going hunting.
You just won the internet .
South Carolina fans chanting "Lock him up" while Miller shoots free throws.
If you didn't think Nate Oats was a turd before, putting Miller on the court tonight should seal the deal.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2023, 09:06:07 PM
South Carolina fans chanting "Lock him up" while Miller shoots free throws.
If you didn't think Nate Oats was a turd before, putting Miller on the court tonight should seal the deal.
Shocked it's that tame. They could be making finger guns or chanting murderer to him. Obviously wouldn't be accurate (given what we know) but certainly screw with an 18yr old who should have a guilty conscience
First time I've seen Miller play. Dude can ball. It's a tragedy what happened to that women and horrible how Alabama is prioritizing winning basketball games over disciplining a player. Awkward to listen to the announcers praise Miller and Oats so much.
Quote from: Judge Smails on February 22, 2023, 10:33:16 PM
First time I've seen Miller play. Dude can ball. It's a tragedy what happened to that women and horrible how Alabama is prioritizing winning basketball games over disciplining a player. Awkward to listen to the announcers praise Miller and Oats so much.
Beyond awkward.
Yea Seth Greenberg had a rough night on the mic.
Just strange all around.
Quote from: Judge Smails on February 22, 2023, 10:33:16 PM
First time I've seen Miller play. Dude can ball. It's a tragedy what happened to that women and horrible how Alabama is prioritizing winning basketball games over disciplining a player. Awkward to listen to the announcers praise Miller and Oats so much.
Same. Kevin Durant comparisons seem warranted, I certainly don't want to draw that matchup. All the more surreal
Quote from: Judge Smails on February 22, 2023, 10:33:16 PM
First time I've seen Miller play. Dude can ball. It's a tragedy what happened to that women and horrible how Alabama is prioritizing winning basketball games over disciplining a player. Awkward to listen to the announcers praise Miller and Oats yso much.
Its bizzare
"If there was any question about Brandon Miller, he answered it tonight"
.....that's not how that works.
....... Or apparently maybe it is
Quote from: Carl on February 22, 2023, 10:39:00 PM
"If there was any question about Brandon Miller, he answered it tonight"
.....that's not how that works.
....... Or apparently maybe it is
Yeah. That's exactly how it works in the SEC.
From a purely basketball standpoint, pretty incredible intangibles that given everything he could lock in and deliver a performance like that.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 22, 2023, 04:38:57 PM
I would. Read the constitution
As usual. Your logic is severely distorted but do believe you would. Constitution has no bearing, common sense does. But in your flake world you would argue that.
Character revealed.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 23, 2023, 05:59:20 AM
As usual. Your logic is severely distorted but do believe you would. Constitution has no bearing, common sense does. But in your flake world you would argue that.
Character revealed.
Common sense dictates I want my friends to be armed at all times
what a wonderful world
Oats stated that "Alabama is doing the right thing with Miller" so I guess no more questions should be asked. Case closed, that 1 seed is all that matters now.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 24, 2023, 03:36:42 PM
Oats stated that "Alabama is doing the right thing with Miller" so I guess no more questions should be asked. Case closed, that 1 seed is all that matters now.
Agree 💯
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 23, 2023, 06:03:26 AM
Common sense dictates I want my friends to be armed at all times
For once we agree. Everybody of age should be armed with an M16, except, of course the elites who get to upgrade to an M60
Quote from: willie warrior on February 24, 2023, 05:09:30 PM
For once we agree. Everybody of age should be armed with an M16, except, of course the elites who get to upgrade to an M60
More guns the better
Quote from: willie warrior on February 24, 2023, 05:09:30 PM
For once we agree. Everybody of age should be armed with an M16, except, of course the elites who get to upgrade to an M60
I legit want to watch an "elite" fire an M60.
https://twitter.com/dhookstead/status/1629559959376609280
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 25, 2023, 03:04:24 PM
https://twitter.com/dhookstead/status/1629559959376609280
*Alabama fans applaud their best player while a walk on does the same pre game routine he's done for the entire season.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 25, 2023, 03:04:24 PM
https://twitter.com/dhookstead/status/1629559959376609280
Unbelievable.
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 03:08:18 PM
*Alabama fans applaud their best player while a walk on does the same pre game routine he's done for the entire season.
You have to read the overall room in this situation panda if nothing else.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 25, 2023, 03:13:00 PM
You have to read the overall room in this situation panda if nothing else.
They promptly kicked the murderer off the team. Be angry at miles/oats not miller.
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 03:14:51 PM
They promptly kicked the murderer off the team. Be angry at miles/oats not miller.
I can be angry at multiple people. :)
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 03:14:51 PM
They promptly kicked the murderer off the team. Be angry at miles/oats not miller.
Imagine defending that. Oats is a POS. At best, Miller is a f'n idiot. And patting him down was disgusting.
Quote from: TAMU, Knower of Ball on February 25, 2023, 03:04:24 PM
https://twitter.com/dhookstead/status/1629559959376609280
Was gonna comment on this. so classless.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 25, 2023, 03:54:52 PM
Imagine defending that. Oats is a POS. At best, Miller is a f'n idiot. And patting him down was disgusting.
im defending a witness to a crime
Quote from: JakeBarnes on February 25, 2023, 04:06:14 PM
Was gonna comment on this. so classless.
Oats is apparently on top of the situation. Alabama continues to handle the situation with masterclass transparency and integrity.
Quote from: MuggsyB on February 25, 2023, 04:09:50 PM
Oats is apparently on top of the situation. Alabama continues to handle the situation with masterclass transparency and integrity.
What is Brandon miller guilty of ?
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:12:29 PM
What is Brandon miller guilty of ?
Bringing a loaded gun that ended up being used to murder someone to the scene of that murder.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 25, 2023, 04:14:46 PM
Bringing a loaded gun that ended up being used to murder someone to the scene of that murder.
Is returning a legal firearm to its owner a crime?
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:18:55 PM
Is returning a legal firearm to its owner a crime?
You think you might want to consider context when determining the quality of his decision? Right now in this thread no one is discussing whether he broke the law.
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:18:55 PM
Is returning a legal firearm to its owner a crime?
I don't know Alabama laws, here if it isn't your gun is a felony.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on February 25, 2023, 04:31:19 PM
You think you might want to consider context when determining the quality of his decision? Right now in this thread no one is discussing whether he broke the law.
My interpretation is his teammate left his gun in miller's car. Miller found out he was in possession of it when miles told him to bring it to him and miller returned it.
Unbelievably unfortunate circumstances that miller will forever be intertwined with. I don't believe there's any wrongdoing on his part for returning a fire arm that he wasn't aware was in his car until the owner told him it was.
To clarify - oats handles this extremely poorly. He and miles are the ones blame/actions should be thrown at not miller.
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:46:29 PM
My interpretation is his teammate left his gun in miller's car. Miller found out he was in possession of it when miles told him to bring it to him and miller returned it.
Unbelievably unfortunate circumstances that miller will forever be intertwined with. I don't believe there's any wrongdoing on his part for returning a fire arm that he wasn't aware was in his car until the owner told him it was.
To clarify - oats handles this extremely poorly. He and miles are the ones blame/actions should be thrown at not miller.
Lol.
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:46:29 PM
My interpretation is his teammate left his gun in miller's car. Miller found out he was in possession of it when miles told him to bring it to him and miller returned it.
Unbelievably unfortunate circumstances that miller will forever be intertwined with. I don't believe there's any wrongdoing on his part for returning a fire arm that he wasn't aware was in his car until the owner told him it was.
To clarify - oats handles this extremely poorly. He and miles are the ones blame/actions should be thrown at not miller.
At least we agree on Oats.
A likely NBA lottery pick used extremely poor judgment based on the circumstances. His decision contributed to a young woman's death.
The intro today was in extremely poor taste and I don't care if that has been how it's been done all season.
"Hey I never cried about this 20x times before, but now I will and you should be in hell!!"
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:07:20 PM
im defending a witness to a crime
I feel like they planned a crime together, given the conversation around "bring me my gun, this dude is trippin'" and the response of "okay it's in the back seat and there's one in the chamber."
Quote from: Skatastrophy on February 25, 2023, 06:50:55 PM
I feel like they planned a crime together, given the conversation around "bring me my gun, this dude is trippin'" and the response of "okay it's in the back seat and there's one in the chamber."
Never saw text, some random dude answered text.
Bama is disgusting, nothing more needs to be said.
I get he might not legally be charged, but the blood of a woman is all over this program, no matter which way you spin it.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on February 25, 2023, 06:50:55 PM
I feel like they planned a crime together, given the conversation around "bring me my gun, this dude is trippin'" and the response of "okay it's in the back seat and there's one in the chamber."
I thought the same guy sent those texts. I didn't think that was Miller's response. But I definitely could be wrong.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 25, 2023, 09:34:50 PM
I thought the same guy sent those texts. I didn't think that was Miller's response. But I definitely could be wrong.
I believe that's right. Which means he shouldn't be going to jail. BUT it also means that Alabama athletics is just okay with its athletes driving around guns to each other, with the person asking for it making his intent relatively clear.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 25, 2023, 09:42:16 PM
I believe that's right. Which means he shouldn't be going to jail. BUT it also means that Alabama athletics is just okay with its athletes driving around guns to each other, with the person asking for it making his intent relatively clear.
He will get suit in civil court for most of his NBA money.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 25, 2023, 09:42:16 PM
I believe that's right. Which means he shouldn't be going to jail. BUT it also means that Alabama athletics is just okay with its athletes driving around guns to each other, with the person asking for it making his intent relatively clear.
That is correct. The quote came from Miles to Davis. Not from Miller.
the initials reports made it sound like Miles texted Miller to bring his gun and Miller came with intent to deliver the gun. It hasn't been shown whether Miller even knew he had it.
Later reports showed his intent was to pick Miles up and he was already on his way. Miles gun just happened to be in the car.
https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/story/sports/college/basketball/2023/02/22/alabama-greg-byrne-darius-miles-brandon-miller-unaware-text-capital-murder-case/69934199007/
"The text message released (Tuesday) was when Brandon was going to pick him up, and was already almost there."
So here are the events as published so far.
1. Miller gave Davis and Miles a ride to the bar
2. Miles leaves his gun in the back of Miller's car
3. Miller goes to eat separately. miles and Davis go to bar
4. While Miller was eating, Miles asks for Miller to come pick him up and take him elsewhere. miller says he will come later as he needs to drop someone off
5. Miles texted Miller over a course of an hour to come get him. Miller is in route to pick up Miles
6. Miles and David get into incident with Victims boyfriend
7. As Miller is almost there Miles texts him to bring gun.
8. After Miller arrives, Miles gets his own gun.
9. Miles hands gun to Davis says heat is in the hat and one in the chamber.
10. Davis shoots at victim's boyfriend and hits the victim.
11. Boyfriend shoots Davis is shoulder and hits Millers car further up the street.
12. Miller drives away. Undisclosed if he gave the ride to Miles and Davis.
13. Boyfriend drives victim to a police car stationed nearby. She is deceased.
14. At apartments, Miles called police that Davis was shot but says boyfriend was aggressor.
15. When confronted with tape, Miles changes story.
16. Miller is contacted by police and he provides requested info.
17. Police don't charge him.
I think the headline makes it sound like Millers involvement was more nefarious than it was.
Reading into this more, I really think it would have been best for Oats to sit Miller for a few games when they found out the particulars - not because he did anything particularly wrong, but because creating some space between the incident and when he played again would have been helpful. The truth helps Miller. Letting it come out how it did, and putting him on the floor, doesn't seem to be a good idea.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 26, 2023, 07:02:51 AM
Reading into this more, I really think it would have been best for Oats to sit Miller for a few games when they found out the particulars - not because he did anything particularly wrong, but because creating some space between the incident and when he played again would have been helpful. The truth helps Miller. Letting it come out how it did, and putting him on the floor, doesn't seem to be a good idea.
yes, i believe you are right here sully(gasp!!) but "just win baby" are 3 powerful words.
i can imagine oats and the powers that be had to have rehearsed their logic because unless they are STUPID, they had to know the blow back would be immediate if not sooner
Well, in fairness to Oats, he was probably way too busy "drawing up plays" to pay any attention to what members of his team were doing at the time. ::)
I think in the long run, having Miller sit for a bit would have been better for the player, coach and the team. Now he is the target of boos, Oats looks like a moron, and any deep run is going to be accompanied with "but..." And all of this may prevent a deep run to begin with.
And the thing is, I can't really figure out how Oats got here. I'm good friends with a guy who played with him at Maranatha Baptist, and who still keeps in touch with him, and he can't be more effusive about what a good guy he is.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on February 26, 2023, 07:26:48 AM
I think in the long run, having Miller sit for a bit would have been better for the player, coach and the team. Now he is the target of boos, Oats looks like a moron, and any deep run is going to be accompanied with "but..." And all of this may prevent a deep run to begin with.
And the thing is, I can't really figure out how Oats got here. I'm good friends with a guy who played with him at Maranatha Baptist, and who still keeps in touch with him, and he can't be more effusive about what a good guy he is.
good guy$ like to win too, e$pecially when $pride$ is$ involved. oh, and then there are the boo$ter$ who want to have a word/beer with you after the game
gee, i wonder how miller's legal fee$ are being paid...no i'm not
Probably through his NIL deal. And I doubt he has much in legal fees at this point.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on February 26, 2023, 07:13:36 AM
yes, i believe you are right here sully(gasp!!) but "just win baby" are 3 powerful words.
i can imagine oats and the powers that be had to have rehearsed their logic because unless they are STUPID, they had to know the blow back would be immediate if not sooner
Miller did nothing wrong
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 26, 2023, 08:36:20 AM
Miller did nothing wrong
Of course he did nothing wrong amongst the Roll Tide crowd. At worst he was helping a bud out but made a dubious decision. Nothing to see here as Drebbin would say.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 26, 2023, 08:51:11 AM
Of course he did nothing wrong amongst the Roll Tide crowd. At worst he was helping a bud out but made a dubious decision. Nothing to see here as Drebbin would say.
Correct
Has the president of Alabama said a single thing about the death of this woman? I'm having a really difficult time that this is apparently going to just blow over. If Miller was a fringe player do you really think there would be no suspension until a complete investigation was finished? Again, Oats, Miller, the rest of the Bama players, the AD, President, and essentially the entire Tuscaloosa community knew about this story for a full month. They knew that details would come out about Miller's potential involvement.
The mother of this young woman who was murdered is furious and I don't blame her. Her grandchild is motherless at 5 yrs old. Has there been any protests or screaming from the rooftops about wtf is going on there? This isn't to say that Miller is guilty or did anything legally wrong but there has to be a complete investigation if nothing else. Kids are suspended for missing class or breaking curfew aren't they? There is no rational person, knowing the facts that we know presently, that would not say Miller exercised extremely poor judgment. It's simply not plausible that Miller brought his friend his gun unknowingly. Oats is also responsible for horrific judgment and asinine statements in the past week.
Quote from: MuggsyB on March 01, 2023, 01:21:37 PM
Has the president of Alabama said a single thing about the death of this woman? I'm having a really difficult time that this is apparently going to just blow over. If Miller was a fringe player do you really think there would be no suspension until a complete investigation was finished? Again, Oats, Miller, the rest of the Bama players, the AD, President, and essentially the entire Tuscaloosa community knew about this story for a full month. They knew that details would come out about Miller's potential involvement.
The mother of this young woman who was murdered is furious and I don't blame her. Her grandchild is motherless at 5 yrs old. Has there been any protests or screaming from the rooftops about wtf is going on there? This isn't to say that Miller is guilty or did anything legally wrong but there has to be a complete investigation if nothing else. Kids are suspended for missing class or breaking curfew aren't they? There is no rational person, knowing the facts that we know presently, that would not say Miller exercised extremely poor judgment. It's simply not plausible that Miller brought his friend his gun unknowingly. Oats is also responsible for horrific judgment and asinine statements in the past week.
The university and Oats have handled it horrendously. Tone-deaf and callous. Seems obvious to me that Miller's importance on a top 3 team and Final Four contender is significantly driving these decisions (I'm not referring to any legal implications).
We'll see if he gets hit with a civil suit post-draft.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 01, 2023, 01:31:11 PM
The university and Oats have handled it horrendously. Tone-deaf and callous. Seems obvious to me that Miller's importance on a top 3 team and Final Four contender is significantly driving these decisions (I'm not referring to any legal implications).
We'll see if he gets hit with a civil suit post-draft.
I could see that happening VBMG. But meanwhile, and I'm not privy to what is specifically happening on campus there, it's beyond bizarre to me that I've read almost nothing as far as community and student body outrage in Tuscaloosa. I do recall what happened in Durham with those LaCrosse players as an example. It's just fking weird.
I mean, I think it is fairly easy to understand why there aren't protests. The player whose gun it was and his friend who shot the victim have both been arrested and the player has been dismissed from the team. Despite the initial "WTF" moment after everyone learned of Miller's involvement, it seems like Miller has been cooperative and actually didn't know about the gun left in his backseat.
But the lack of statements from the President's office is strange. And the University's continuing to throw Oats out there to do something that is clearly not a skill of his is a problem.
What they should have done is suspend Miller as soon as they knew of his involvement. Once the story came out about his cooperation, I have no problem with him continuing to play. (If of course his story holds up.) But throwing him out on the road before the whole story came out was an awful thing to do even if he wanted to play.
But I feel that Oats needs more guidance on the PR side of things. Why do they put him out there? And the University administration needs to step up and do something here. Right now it looks like they have no idea what to do in the crisis communications area and are just flying by the seat of their pants.
Quote from: panda on February 25, 2023, 04:12:29 PM
What is Brandon miller guilty of ?
A case could easily be made to charge Miller with Accessory to Murder.
Guilt or innocence would be determined at a later date.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 02:13:16 PM
A case could easily be made to charge Miller with Accessory to Murder.
Guilt or innocence would be determined at a later date.
But the district attorney already claimed that couldn't be done under Alabama law. I really don't want DAs out there filing fringe charges only to say "guilt or innocence can be determined at a later date." They need to follow the law.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 01, 2023, 02:06:40 PM
I mean, I think it is fairly easy to understand why there aren't protests. The player whose gun it was and his friend who shot the victim have both been arrested and the player has been dismissed from the team. Despite the initial "WTF" moment after everyone learned of Miller's involvement, it seems like Miller has been cooperative and actually didn't know about the gun left in his backseat.
But the lack of statements from the President's office is strange. And the University's continuing to throw Oats out there to do something that is clearly not a skill of his is a problem.
What they should have done is suspend Miller as soon as they knew of his involvement. Once the story came out about his cooperation, I have no problem with him continuing to play. (If of course his story holds up.) But throwing him out on the road before the whole story came out was an awful thing to do even if he wanted to play.
But I feel that Oats needs more guidance on the PR side of things. Why do they put him out there? And the University administration needs to step up and do something here. Right now it looks like they have no idea what to do in the crisis communications area and are just flying by the seat of their pants.
I get what you're saying but we know for a fact Miller brought a gun to a friend (at 1am) that was used to kill a 23yr old woman. We also know that his car had bullet holes in them. Again, Alabama's disciplinary decisions are separate from the potential legal issues and police investigations. When you say he "didn't know about the gun in tbe backseat" are we supposed to just accept it at face value? How is that possible? Didn't his friend specifically tell him to bring him his gun at 1am?
Miller's lawyer claims he didn't see the gun in the car. Is that actually the same thing as not knowing there was a gun in the car? The legal statement from his attorney doesn't exactly exonerate Miller from wrongdoing in my judgment. I cannot wrap my head around Alabama doing literally nothing. Wouldn't you simply state we are conducting a thorough investigation of what happened that evening and until we find out the complete story, with help from authorities and local police, we have no choice but to suspend Miller?
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 01, 2023, 02:17:24 PM
But the district attorney already claimed that couldn't be done under Alabama law. I really don't want DAs out there filing fringe charges only to say "guilt or innocence can be determined at a later date." They need to follow the law.
Could there be corruption among the DA's office and local police department in Tuscaloosa covering for Alabama?
Quote from: MuggsyB on March 01, 2023, 02:23:13 PM
Could there be corruption among the DA's office and local police department in Tuscaloosa covering for Alabama?
Never.
No I don't think we should take Miller's words at face value. But if the police are exonerating him after he was cooperative, that seems to be acceptable unless something else comes out. And yes, as I said above, he should have been suspended until that police exoneration occurred. Apparently he said he didn't read the texts about the gun because he was driving at the time.
Now if all the above is true, why should Alabama continue with a suspension? It doesn't seem like he violated a team rule or the athletic code of conduct.
I think Miller has been failed by the adults in the room. They should have kept him off the court at South Carolina and should have told him to stop the "pat down" act during intros. Oats may not have known about it, but someone else clearly should have.
Quote from: MuggsyB on March 01, 2023, 02:23:13 PM
Could there be corruption among the DA's office and local police department in Tuscaloosa covering for Alabama?
Could be. I don't know. In the absence of evidence of corruption, I will trust they know Alabama law better than Scoopers do.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 01, 2023, 02:31:34 PM
No I don't think we should take Miller's words at face value. But if the police are exonerating him after he was cooperative, that seems to be acceptable unless something else comes out. And yes, as I said above, he should have been suspended until that police exoneration occurred. Apparently he said he didn't read the texts about the gun because he was driving at the time.
Now if all the above is true, why should Alabama continue with a suspension? It doesn't seem like he violated a team rule or the athletic code of conduct.
I think Miller has been failed by the adults in the room. They should have kept him off the court at South Carolina and should have told him to stop the "pat down" act during intros. Oats may not have known about it, but someone else clearly should have.
He didn't read the texts about the gun is pretty difficult for me to believe.
Quote from: The Sultan of Semantics on March 01, 2023, 02:17:24 PM
But the district attorney already claimed that couldn't be done under Alabama law. I really don't want DAs out there filing fringe charges only to say "guilt or innocence can be determined at a later date." They need to follow the law.
Bringing the murder weapon to the murder scene is hardly a fringe charge. And there appears to be ample evidence to bring charges, regardless of what District Attorney Billy Bob says.
According to the Bill of Rights, Guilt or innocence is always determined at a later date.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 02:40:50 PM
Bringing the murder weapon to the murder scene is hardly a fringe charge. And there appears to be ample evidence to bring charges, regardless of what District Attorney Billy Bob says.
According to the Bill of Rights, Guilt or innocence is always determined at a later date.
He had to know the gun was going to be used in a crime. He claims that he didn't know the gun was in the car, didn't hand it to Miles or the shooter, and had no idea they were going to commit a crime. He gave the police access to his phone and to his car, and they apparently came to the same conclusion.
I don't want DAs charging people with crimes unless they have the evidence to convict.
He may not have done anything against the laws, but if he had no knowledge of the gun being in the car the lawyer's statement would have been much different. His lawyer never once said he didn't know the gun was in the car. If he didn't know the gun was in the car, that would've been stated over and over and over again by the lawyer. Instead it was all lawyer speak about not knowing the intent of Miles, not seeing or handling it, and not knowing the situation he was heading into. In fact, the statement doesn't even say he didn't see the text Miles sent asking him to bring the gun, it just says that while he was already on his way to pick up Miles, Miles texted him to bring his gun. Which would lead you to ask, if Miller didn't know where the gun was wouldn't the response be, "Where is the gun?" before continuing on to pick Miles up?
It essentially said Brandon did not take part in the situation and touched the gun in any way, has cooperated since the event, but did not say he was unaware of the gun being in the car.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 01, 2023, 02:49:56 PM
He may not have done anything against the laws, but if he had no knowledge of the gun being in the car the lawyer's statement would have been much different. His lawyer never once said he didn't know the gun was in the car. If he didn't know the gun was in the car, that would've been stated over and over and over again by the lawyer. Instead it was all lawyer speak about not knowing the intent of Miles, not seeing or handling it, and not knowing the situation he was heading into. In fact, the statement doesn't even say he didn't see the text Miles sent asking him to bring the gun, it just says that while he was already on his way to pick up Miles, Miles texted him to bring his gun. Which would lead you to ask, if Miller didn't know where the gun was wouldn't the response be, "Where is the gun?" before continuing on to pick Miles up?
It essentially said Brandon did not take part in the situation and touched the gun in any way, has cooperated since the event, but did not say he was unaware of the gun being in the car.
Ty. This is similar to my understanding of what happened but I haven't read extensively about it.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 02:40:50 PM
According to the Bill of Rights, Guilt or innocence is always determined at a later date.
And according to standard codes of legal ethics, prosecutors should not file charges in cases when they do not believe they have the evidence to win a conviction. The criminal justice system isn't "charge them all and let a jury sort it out."
Quote from: Pakuni on March 01, 2023, 03:03:16 PM
And according to standard codes of legal ethics, prosecutors should not file charges in cases when they do not believe they have the evidence to win a conviction. The criminal justice system isn't "charge them all and let a jury sort it out."
He was texted to bring the gun, he brought the gun, a young mother was shot dead. That hardly qualifies as "charge them all and let the jury sort it out".
If 2 Marquette players were involved, one expelled from school (acknowledging some wrongdoing), and the other (conference POY and future lottery pick) with no consequences, I would hope we'd all be asking questions. I know I would.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 03:14:03 PM
He was texted to bring the gun, he brought the gun, a young mother was shot dead. That hardly qualifies as "charge them all and let the jury sort it out", but what do I know?
If 2 Marquette players were involved, one expelled from school (acknowledging some wrongdoing), and the other with no consequences, I would hope we'd all be asking questions. I know I would.
Darius Miles was not just "expelled from school." He was arrested for capital murder because he provided the gun that the shooter used.
That's the point. The person that actually provided the shooter with the gun HAS been arrested and charged.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 03:14:03 PM
He was texted to bring the gun, he brought the gun, a young mother was shot dead. That hardly qualifies as "charge them all and let the jury sort it out".
So, what are you charging him with?
It's not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun.
I'm not sure at this point what you can suspend him for. It doesn't sound like he will be charged with anything. He's cooperating.
That doesn't mean he shouldn't have been suspended right when it happened to let the process play out. The school has know about this awhile. However, at this point, it doesn't seem like there's a cause to suspend.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 01, 2023, 03:21:06 PM
So, what are you charging him with?
Accessory to murder. You don't have to agree with me, but if he hadn't brought the murder weapon to the scene - a young boy would still have a mother.
Players have been suspended for far less. Alabama has handed this horribly.
And, I don't know the laws in Alabama, but in most states it is illegal to have a loaded gun in a car. At the very least, he broke the law, which ultimately led to a murder.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 03:27:48 PM
Accessory to murder. You don't have to agree with me, but if he hadn't brought the murder weapon to the scene - a young boy would still have a mother.
Players have been suspended for far less. Alabama has handed this horribly.
The DA specifically said they can't charge him with that. Yes, a young boy lost a mother. But two people have been arrested for that crime.
Oats is a trainwreck in front of the media (maybe elsewhere). What is worse; admitting you didn't know about the "pat down" or admitting you did know about the "pat down"?
Didn't know = clueless, failed by player, coaches and administrators
Did know = clueless and admission of being unaware of the reality of the situation.
Then the genius doubles down by claiming its a TSA pat down. As if patted down by law enforcement for weapons in an airport is less offensive. The TSA reference is laughable to anyone with a room temperature IQ.
Someone needs to get Oats away from the press ASAP.
Quote from: 94Warrior on March 01, 2023, 03:27:48 PM
Accessory to murder. You don't have to agree with me, but if he hadn't brought the murder weapon to the scene - a young boy would still have a mother.
Nope. The Alabama accessory statute is linked below. As you can read, it requires proof that the defendant act with "intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense." So, you need to prove not only that Miller brought the gun, but that he brought the gun either intending or knowing that it would be used to kill someone.
From the statute:
"A person acts intentionally with respect to a result or to conduct described by a
statute defining an offense, when his/her purpose is to cause that result or to engage in that conduct.So, how do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Miller brought the gun either knowing or intending that someone would wind up dead?
https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/library/docs/13A-2-23.pdf
Quote from: Pakuni on March 01, 2023, 03:21:06 PM
So, what are you charging him with?
It's not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun.
If that gun was used to commit murder, it most certainly COULD be an accessory crime. DA is choosing not to, for various reasons.
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided.
Anyone who thinks the DA is treating this case they would absent the AL bb start factor has their head in the sand.
Alabama's accessory statute (https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-13a-criminal-code/al-code-sect-13a-2-23.html):
A person is legally accountable for the behavior of another constituting a criminal offense if, with the intent to promote or assist the commission of the offense:
(1) He procures, induces or causes such other person to commit the offense; or
(2) He aids or abets such other person in committing the offense; or
(3) Having a legal duty to prevent the commission of the offense, he fails to make an effort he is legally required to make.
Defining intent (https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-13a-criminal-code/al-code-sect-13a-2-2.html): "A person acts intentionally with respect to a result or to conduct described by a statute defining an offense, when his purpose is to cause that result or to engage in that conduct."
The highlighted language is why he's not being charged. To be an accessory, he had to intend to help in the commission of the crime. Intent is a very difficult standard to meet. It's more than "knowing" and it's more than "reckless." They would have to show that "his purpose" in driving to the scene of the shooting was to cause the shooting. It sounds like they just don't have the evidence of that.
Edited to add: Should have checked the new posts. Pakuni beat me to the punch.
Quote from: Carl Spackler on March 01, 2023, 03:42:39 PM
If that gun was used to commit murder, it most certainly COULD be an accessory crime. DA is choosing not to, for various reasons.
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided.
Anyone who thinks the DA is treating this case they would absent the AL bb start factor has their head in the sand.
Why do you say that? Are there instances where the DA has charged someone in similar circumstances?
Quote from: Carl Spackler on March 01, 2023, 03:42:39 PM
If that gun was used to commit murder, it most certainly COULD be an accessory crime. DA is choosing not to, for various reasons.
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided.
Anyone who thinks the DA is treating this case they would absent the AL bb start factor has their head in the sand.
This is completely wrong. The prosecutor needs to have evidence to prove intent to assist in committing a murder to bring a conspiracy charge. That's the bar for prosecution for a criminal conspiracy.
I am very thankful some of you aren't prosecutors. And I hope you pay very close attention to jury instructions upon deliberation if you're ever asked to sit on a jury.
If he received a text that essentially said I need a gun to address an issue w someone, and it's provided, and the issue is "addressed" I think that fits accessory
Not saying that's what happened, but could have
Quote from: Carl Spackler on March 01, 2023, 03:42:39 PM
If that gun was used to commit murder, it most certainly COULD be an accessory crime. DA is choosing not to, for various reasons.
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided.
Anyone who thinks the DA is treating this case they would absent the AL bb start factor has their head in the sand.
But this is not correct. It doesn't matter what the owner of the gun does with the gun -- it matters what the person who brought the gun
intended. It doesn't matter if the gun was "knowingly provided" -- it matters what the person who brought the gun
intended. You might not like the accessory law, but you don't get to rewrite it.
Quote from: MDMU04 on March 01, 2023, 03:49:29 PM
This is completely wrong. The prosecutor needs to have evidence to prove intent to assist in committing a murder to bring a conspiracy charge. That's the bar for prosecution for a criminal conspiracy.
I am very thankful some of you aren't prosecutors. And I hope you pay very close attention to jury instructions upon deliberation if you're ever asked to sit on a jury.
Obviously, you cant read. I stated:
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided.
It could be a crime, it might not be a crime. It CLEARLY depends on why the person brings it, and what is done with it. Bringing someone a gun they legally own does not get Miller off the hook automatically. That was my point - which you obviously missed.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 01, 2023, 03:21:06 PM
So, what are you charging him with?
It's not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun.
So on the books gun laws weren't followed by 2 people charged with murder.
Got it.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 01, 2023, 04:24:58 PM
So on the books gun laws weren't followed by 2 people charged with murder.
Got it.
Nearly passed out from rolling my eyes so hard at this.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on March 01, 2023, 04:27:16 PM
Nearly passed out from rolling my eyes so hard at this.
Don't hit your head.
Quote from: Carl Spackler on March 01, 2023, 04:04:17 PM
Obviously, you cant read. I stated:
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided.
It could be a crime, it might not be a crime. It CLEARLY depends on why the person brings it, and what is done with it. Bringing someone a gun they legally own does not get Miller off the hook automatically. That was my point - which you obviously missed.
Thanks for that.
I was addressing your comment:
"If that gun was used to commit murder, it most certainly COULD be an accessory crime. DA is choosing not to, for various reasons.
It is clearly false that it is not a crime to bring someone their legally owned gun. It depends what the owner of that gun does with the gun, that was knowingly provided. "
It's more than knowing about the gun and what the gun winds up being used for.
From the Alabama Criminal Code § 13A-4-3
(a) A person is guilty of criminal conspiracy if, with the intent that conduct constituting an offense be performed, he agrees with one or more persons to engage in or cause the performance of such conduct, and any one or more of such persons does an overt act to effect an objective of the agreement.
For Miller to be charged with accessory to murder, or in this case criminal conspiracy to commit murder, a prosecutor needs to have evidence of three things:
- Miller provides someone the murder weapon
- The weapon is used to commit a murder
AND
- Miller provided the weapon
with the intent that conduct constituting an offense be performed ie specific evidence of Miller's intent that the gun he provides is used to commit a murder. Not to simply shoot someone, not to intimidate them, but to murder them.
It doesn't matter if he knew he was bringing the person the gun or not. It doesn't even matter if the gun winds up being used in a murder.
The way the law in Alabama is written, unless Miller brought that gun AND specifically intended for that gun to be used to commit a murder, AND someone winds up being murdered with the gun that he brought, there is no charge for conspiracy to commit murder.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 01, 2023, 04:24:58 PM
So on the books gun laws weren't followed by 2 people charged with murder.
Which ones?
Quote from: MDMU04 on March 01, 2023, 04:42:12 PM
From the Alabama Criminal Code § 13A-4-3
(a) A person is guilty of criminal conspiracy if, with the intent that conduct constituting an offense be performed, he agrees with one or more persons to engage in or cause the performance of such conduct, and any one or more of such persons does an overt act to effect an objective of the agreement.
For Miller to be charged with accessory to murder, or in this case criminal conspiracy to commit murder, a prosecutor needs to have evidence of three things:
- Miller provides someone the murder weapon
- The weapon is used to commit a murder
AND
- Miller provided the weapon with the intent that conduct constituting an offense be performed ie specific evidence of Miller's intent that the gun he provides is used to commit a murder. Not to simply shoot someone, not to intimidate them, but to murder them.
It doesn't matter if he knew he was bringing the person the gun or not. It doesn't even matter if the gun winds up being used in a murder.
The way the law in Alabama is written, unless Miller brought that gun AND specifically intended for that gun to be used to commit a murder, AND someone winds up being murdered with the gun that he brought, there is no charge for conspiracy to commit murder.
There is a difference between criminal conspiracy and accessory. I don't know that you've address accessory above - just conspiracy.
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 01, 2023, 04:52:33 PM
There is a difference between criminal conspiracy and accessory. I don't know that you've address accessory above - just conspiracy.
Here's the accessory statute.
https://judicial.alabama.gov/docs/library/docs/13A-2-23.pdf
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 01, 2023, 04:52:33 PM
There is a difference between criminal conspiracy and accessory. I don't know that you've address accessory above - just conspiracy.
Pakuni beat me to it, criminal liability is still contingent on intent to promote or assist in the commission of the offense.
Man, so many actual and wanna be lawyers expounding here. A guy brings a gun to another guy who hands it off to another guy who offs some woman,
.Please at the very least he should be charged as an accessory and let the trial system decide. While that is going on he ahould not be playing basketball. If the idiots at Alabama allow him to play, then let that purge begin.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 01, 2023, 05:40:03 PM
Man, so many actual and wanna be lawyers expounding here. A guy brings a gun to another guy who hands it off to another guy who offs some woman,
.Please at the very least he should be charged as an accessory and let the trial system decide. While that is going on he ahould not be playing basketball. If the idiots at Alabama allow him to play, then let that purge begin.
"So many wannabe lawyers here"...proceeds to be a wannabe lawyer.
University of Alabama is a horrible institution. They will do anything and everything to produce winners....
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 01, 2023, 05:56:58 PM
Uh, the don't kill people laws.
You said "gun laws." Those aren't gun laws.
I could be mistaken, but the complete transparency with which Miller handed over everything, without legal wrangling for a warrant or other demand, and cooperated with police from the start makes me inclined to take him at his word.
A lot of people seem to be holding onto incorrect early reports of him physically bringing/handing the gun to Miles, intentionally blocking in the victims car, being around at the time of the shooting, etc...and allowing it to color their firm assertions of his guilt. Not to mention lumping him into the s***show which has been Nate Oates public statements the last few weeks.