Fundamentals are terrible and we have a bunch of guys who look like they're still 18 and haven't found a weight room. Your defense can only be so good if you can't finish possessions. Part of it is the helter skelter defense we play, leaving everyone scrambling and nobody in a spot to box out. But there are a lot of times where our team is the first to get our hands on the ball and wind up having it taken away.
Quote from: BLM on November 12, 2021, 07:54:48 PM
Fundamentals are terrible and we have a bunch of guys who look like they're still 18 and haven't found a weight room. Your defense can only be so good if you can't finish possessions. Part of it is the helter skelter defense we play, leaving everyone scrambling and nobody in a spot to box out. But there are a lot of times where our team is the first to get our hands on the ball and wind up having it taken away.
Where's Todd Smith
Quote from: BLM on November 12, 2021, 07:54:48 PM
Fundamentals are terrible and we have a bunch of guys who look like they're still 18 and haven't found a weight room. Your defense can only be so good if you can't finish possessions. Part of it is the helter skelter defense we play, leaving everyone scrambling and nobody in a spot to box out. But there are a lot of times where our team is the first to get our hands on the ball and wind up having it taken away.
Agree with this analysis. Out rebounded 25 - 19 in the first half tonight against New Hampshire. Second straight game against weak competition where Kuath has been MIA.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 12, 2021, 08:39:13 PM
Agree with this analysis. Out rebounded 25 - 19 in the first half tonight against New Hampshire. Second straight game against weak competition where Kuath has been MIA.
He's never been a rebounder. As I'm sure you know, rebounding is about positioning and reading the ball. I'm not sure he is that guy or ever will be.
It improved in the second half.
We need OMP to defend and rebound from the 3. I think we will learn a lot Mon vs Illinois.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 12, 2021, 09:23:24 PM
He's never been a rebounder. As I'm sure you know, rebounding is about positioning and reading the ball. I'm not sure he is that guy or ever will be.
You're right re rebounding. I don't remember seeing Kuath play before this year, but I haven't seen any indication yet of basketball skills or instincts. Hope he proves me wrong going forward.
Quote from: BLM on November 12, 2021, 07:54:48 PM
there are a lot of times where our team is the first to get our hands on the ball and wind up having it taken away.
True, so true. Positioning is a problem but so is strength/hands. I think a lot of how we develop as a team this year will involve this issue and how/if Kuath & OMax progress. So far they've been a tad disappointing and the schedule is not going to get more favorable. Hoping that young bodies and minds will address the problem.
I disagree with the idea that Kur and OMP have been disappointing. Look at their numbers from last year. OMP averaged under 10 minutes per game at Clemson. Kur averaged 17 minutes per game as a back up big at Oklahoma. Their play this year is consistent with their past.
Quote from: tower912 on November 13, 2021, 12:04:58 PM
I disagree with the idea that Kur and OMP have been disappointing. Look at their numbers from last year. OMP averaged under 10 minutes per game at Clemson. Kur averaged 17 minutes per game as a back up big at Oklahoma. Their play this year is consistent with their past.
Don't players usually improve year to year? Lots of guys step-up their game with extended mins and from Freshman to Soph or Soph to Junior seasons. It's only two games, hopefully they bring it Monday.
Quote from: tower912 on November 13, 2021, 12:04:58 PM
I disagree with the idea that Kur and OMP have been disappointing. Look at their numbers from last year. OMP averaged under 10 minutes per game at Clemson. Kur averaged 17 minutes per game as a back up big at Oklahoma. Their play this year is consistent with their past.
Those who disavowed all things Wojo and/or who were bugged by Theo's off-the-court persona confidently proclaimed that Kuath would be an improvement over Theo.
I'd have loved those folks to have been correct. Unfortunately, it looks like Kuath doesn't know how to play basketball very well. I certainly would never ask Kuath to make a post move on offense, and he seems pretty lost on D too. I'm holding out hope that we'll see better from him on the defensive end. In each of the first two games, we were vastly better with Oso on the floor.
And so far, Cain is miles better than OMP, too ... but Cain is a few years older, so there's time.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 12, 2021, 11:19:22 PM
You're right re rebounding. I don't remember seeing Kuath play before this year, but I haven't seen any indication yet of basketball skills or instincts. Hope he proves me wrong going forward.
I had to look it up... but I thought I remember someone bringing it up in his transfer thread.
Quote from: MuggsyB on November 13, 2021, 12:30:16 PM
Don't players usually improve year to year? Lots of guys step-up their game with extended mins and from Freshman to Soph or Soph to Junior seasons. It's only two games, hopefully they bring it Monday.
You hope they do. And OMP has. It is incremental, not extreme.
Most young players need to get stronger and that should happen if they work hard in the weight room.
I have already expressed my concerns about how we seen to be only recruiting guards. I do not think the transfer portal will resolve this issue. The very good big men in the the portal are likely to pick the top programs.
I am happy with our rebounding . Last night one guy got 12 rebounds and another got 11. That is a nice combination .
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 13, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
I am happy with our rebounding . Last night one guy got 12 rebounds and another got 11. That is a nice combination .
I hope you weren't happy with the way we got destroyed on the boards in the first half by New Hampshire. The 2nd half was better, but that's GOT to improve.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on November 12, 2021, 07:55:46 PM
Where's Todd Smith
He is? I swore I saw him on TV behind the scorers table
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/SpeedBump.JPG)
Bump. Can't be giving up second chance points every possession when you're down double digits.
We have no rim defense. We watch flat footed as they rebound and shoot underneath.
Rebounding is optional with this defense.
Yes BLM....I fear we struggle with this all year.
I have listened to SS's pressers after each game and I have yet to hear him mention it. The fumbling, the poor positioning, the subsequent fouls, etc. which lead to open look 3s will kill us. It must be addressed.
Couple things caught my eye sitting courtside last night, #1 the UCLA guys were bigger abd stronger than our guys by a wide margin, and #2 our guys get way too antsy and often take themselves out of rebounding position.
I think they are expecting someone to get the rebound and are getting ready to move the ball up court. At the moment, they are a very poor rebounding team and it has hurt them in almost every game.
One other observation, Kur and Omax are big time athletes for their size. They are going to carry a team but think they will have more and more impact in the upcoming games.
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2021, 08:51:31 AM
Couple things caught my eye sitting courtside last night, #1 the UCLA guys were bigger abd stronger than our guys by a wide margin, and #2 our guys get way too antsy and often take themselves out of rebounding position.
I think they are expecting someone to get the rebound and are getting ready to move the ball up court. At the moment, they are a very poor rebounding team and it has hurt them in almost every game.
One other observation, Kur and Omax are big time athletes for their size. They are going to carry a team but think they will have more and more impact in the upcoming games.
Yep.
"I thought you were going to get it."
"Well, I thought you were going to get it." Not my job!"
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 12, 2021, 08:41:40 AM
Yes BLM....I fear we struggle with this all year.
I have listened to SS's pressers after each game and I have yet to hear him mention it. The fumbling, the poor positioning, the subsequent fouls, etc. which lead to open look 3s will kill us. It must be addressed.
I can't count the number of times I've said "two hands!" already this season.
We have one player who consistently blocks out his man -- Oso. Much of the time, others just jump in the direction of the ball or watch others jump.
It's been the biggest disappointment to me this season from a coaching perspective. By now, more guys (which means all guys) should be finding a body, boxing out and attacking the ball.
And one thing's for sure ... we cannot afford to ever have guards leak out in the hope of getting outlet passes. Those passes will never arrive because we aren't securing rebounds. Our guards have to hit the defensive boards.
All 5 Marquette players on the floor need to be committed to grabbing every defensive rebound.
Obviously, there will be rebounds they won't get because of the way the ball bounces or because of an opponent's individual effort/talent; there was one put-back last night where the UCLA shooter fired a brick that barely hit the bottom of the rim and the rebound went right into the hands of a teammate, who scored. That happens sometimes.
But all 5 MU players have to be committed to defensive rebounding, and I don't see that yet. Lots of poor rebounding fundamentals, too. That's partly a talent thing, sure, but it's also a coaching/culture thing.
Blocking out still poor.
What I did notice is UCLA was often crashing 4 guys on the off boards with Campbell the lone guy back. If teams consistently do that we need to burn these teams in transition. OMax did it once and someone else did too.
If this is going to stay a weakness we need to at least get some transition buckets when we get a board.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 12, 2021, 08:41:40 AM
Yes BLM....I fear we struggle with this all year.
I have listened to SS's pressers after each game and I have yet to hear him mention it. The fumbling, the poor positioning, the subsequent fouls, etc. which lead to open look 3s will kill us. It must be addressed.
Shaka was talking about rebounding with Homer right away last night.
Quote from: Goose on December 12, 2021, 08:51:31 AM
Couple things caught my eye sitting courtside last night, #1 the UCLA guys were bigger abd stronger than our guys by a wide margin, and #2 our guys get way too antsy and often take themselves out of rebounding position.
I think they are expecting someone to get the rebound and are getting ready to move the ball up court. At the moment, they are a very poor rebounding team and it has hurt them in almost every game.
One other observation, Kur and Omax are big time athletes for their size. They are going to carry a team but think they will have more and more impact in the upcoming games.
Agree. We nerd to recruit mature dominant tough big players to compete in the big east. We can't recruit talented skinny kids.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 12, 2021, 05:18:11 PM
Agree. We nerd to recruit mature dominant tough big players to compete in the big east. We can't recruit talented skinny kids.
Oso was a talented skinny kid. He's our best rebounder
Hate typos. Sorry. But we need mature dominant players to compete.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 12, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
Hate typos. Sorry. But we need mature dominant players to compete.
Way to go out on a limb with that one.
Aren't going to win many games rebounding like this. It's one thing when it's a long rebound and you're just in the wrong spot. We just fumble balls everywhere.
BLM, you could just repeat your OP and it would still be true.
Maybe we will win games when we rebound like this. 47-26 on the boards. Yikes. But a W.
Quote from: BLM on January 15, 2022, 12:34:55 PM
Aren't going to win many games rebounding like this. It's one thing when it's a long rebound and you're just in the wrong spot. We just fumble balls everywhere.
This. Besides just getting beat to position too often, I don't know how many times we had position today and just didn't grab the damn ball when it was ours for the grabbing.
I think it's all of the above.
Poor fundamentals
Poor tenacity
Poor hands
Poor anticipation
Poor sticktuitiveness
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 15, 2022, 01:31:16 PM
I think it's all of the above.
Poor fundamentals
Poor tenacity
Poor hands
Poor anticipation
Poor sticktuitiveness
Add in team strategy to have fast transitions, so guys turning and heading up court quickly.
Quote from: mug644 on January 15, 2022, 01:33:42 PM
Add in team strategy to have fast transitions, so guys turning and heading up court quickly.
Yes the heading up court quickly always puzzles me since we don't have the ball yet - and have a history of not getting the rebounds. Crash the bards and secure the ball. Then, we stop them from scoring by them getting the rebound and we might score. Loo
Quote from: mug644 on January 15, 2022, 01:33:42 PM
Add in team strategy to have fast transitions, so guys turning and heading up court quickly.
Yuuuuuup
And 19-7 on offensive boards. Would like to see the stats on second-chance points.
That will wear a team down in the long run.
Rebounding always looks worse when looking at the stat sheet afterwards. Don't get me wrong, we're not good, but when looking at the -21, you also have to consider the +10 TO margin. As frequently as we're minus in boards we're plus in TOs.
It is hard to imagine winning a game where you are out rebounded 47-26. But.....
Quote from: Daniel on January 15, 2022, 01:52:00 PM
It is hard to imagine winning a game where you are out rebounded 47-26. But.....
Kinda being the norm.
I think Illinois was worse
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on January 15, 2022, 01:52:46 PM
Kinda being the norm.
I think Illinois was worse
True. Can we imagine how good we would be if we just rebounded evenly? If they figure this out could mean a lot more points for MU and fewer points for opponent. Would be sweet! But who knows......
When Fluff has educated y'all on the ball call he will teach everyone a rebounding lesson at 5:00pm CST.
We're playing with fire. Rebounding HAS to be addressed this spring with a transfer big.
Quote from: Goose on January 15, 2022, 02:09:52 PM
When Fluff has educated y'all on the ball call he will teach everyone a rebounding lesson at 5:00pm CST.
Score one for the Goose.
Quote from: mug644 on January 15, 2022, 01:33:42 PM
Add in team strategy to have fast transitions, so guys turning and heading up court quickly.
The defensive strategy of going for blocks also contributes to guys being out of position for rebounds
Yep, if our 4's arn't rebounding, we wont get them. Omax played poorly, might have been hurt. JLew was the only rebounder on the court. Need to do better 1-4 crashing a little more.
Quote from: Boone on January 15, 2022, 02:11:31 PM
We're playing with fire. Rebounding HAS to be addressed this spring with a transfer big.
Agreed.
We can have transition points or rebounds.
Which do you want?
being better than -21 on the glass isn't too much to ask for
How about wins? Shaka laka!
Boone
Rebounding is a major concern and we are getting well into this season and not much improvement. If they end up having a down stretch it likely will be due to lack of rebounding. They have dodged some bullets and need to start grabbing the basketball.
for sure, Goose. It's going to cost us if not tightened up. That said, HUGE win. Gotta love Morsell
Boone
It was a very nice win and more to come. This team can hold its own against most any team out there. Far from a perfect team, but the guys are buying into the system which helps a great deal.
i may be wrong here(fee-fee will correct) but we seem to be pretty good in close games. we are a tenacious bunch with a little bit of ice water in the veins.
It always feels like other teams are going over our backs, so I'm not sure if that means we aren't doing a good job boxing out. Not saying fouls should be called, just it feels like we are in the right spots, but not establishing position. It also doesn't help that I don't think Kuath has the best hands, so it keeps a lot of balls alive.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 15, 2022, 02:33:03 PM
We can have transition points or rebounds.
Which do you want?
Is there any data to support this?
Like are good rebounding teams typically poor in transition? Are teams that score a lot in transition often statistically poor in rebounding?
All three bigs are not strong enough yet to rebound. Kuath is normally out of position as he try's to block everything which Leaves Prosper or a skinny guard, neither are strong and Lewis does not really want to rebound. Prosper today was brutal and Elliott was awful till the end. Kolek as well. To win with those guys giving nothing offensively is impressive
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 15, 2022, 04:07:29 PM
All three bigs are not strong enough yet to rebound. Kuath is normally out of position as he try's to block everything which Leaves Prosper or a skinny guard, neither are strong and Lewis does not really want to rebound. Prosper today was brutal and Elliott was awful till the end. Kolek as well. To win with those guys giving nothing offensively is impressive
The guy who's 4th in the Big East in rebounding "does not really want to rebound?" Lol. Back to getting only the easy rebounds, I guess.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 15, 2022, 04:03:56 PM
Is there any data to support this?
Like are good rebounding teams typically poor in transition? Are teams that score a lot in transition often statistically poor in rebounding?
I have no idea on data. I also have no idea the answers to your questions.
I was responding to folks above who seem to believe lack of rebounding is due to guys running down the court before the rebound is secured. To me, that indicates emphasis on the transition offense over keeping guys back to secure a rebound. In that scenario, it would seem you'd have to pick one or another.
I've seen OMP several times a game watch the shot while his guy slides in front of him for the rebound.....often times the put back....and sometimes the and one.
Drives me crazy.
Quote from: Pakuni on January 15, 2022, 04:03:56 PM
Is there any data to support this?
Like are good rebounding teams typically poor in transition? Are teams that score a lot in transition often statistically poor in rebounding?
I made this argument in a group chat, but Andrei from Paint Touches checked the data and there's nothing to support it. There was actually a small correlation that rebounding might help transition scoring, but I don't believe it was statistically significant. I believe there's a Twitter thread on it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2022, 04:55:25 PM
I made this argument in a group chat, but Andrei from Paint Touches checked the data and there's nothing to support it. There was actually a small correlation that rebounding might help transition scoring, but I don't believe it was statistically significant. I believe there's a Twitter thread on it.
Thanks for that. My thinking was it might be a philosophical choice by the staff
Quote from: BLM on January 15, 2022, 04:12:56 PM
The guy who's 4th in the Big East in rebounding "does not really want to rebound?" Lol. Back to getting only the easy rebounds, I guess.
Ok not to disagree with stats but Lewis has not learned how to block out, he should be better
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 15, 2022, 04:58:13 PM
Thanks for that. My thinking was it might be a philosophical choice by the staff
Shaka wasn't mic'd up today so I don't know if he said it again, but when he was mic'd up Tuesday, he stressed quite forcefully:
"All 5 to the boards! All 5!"Now, I don't know if that's only his philosophy sometimes, but I'm guessing it's not. Every player on the floor has to find a man, put a body on him and go get the ball.
A couple other Scoopers talked about our need for a big so we can rebound better next season ... but if 3 or 4 guys on the floor either forget to box out or have poor fundamentals trying, it won't help much.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 15, 2022, 04:55:25 PM
I made this argument in a group chat, but Andrei from Paint Touches checked the data and there's nothing to support it. There was actually a small correlation that rebounding might help transition scoring, but I don't believe it was statistically significant. I believe there's a Twitter thread on it.
Thanks for verifying
I guess we can have our cake and eat it too
Quote from: MU82 on January 15, 2022, 05:17:08 PM
Shaka wasn't mic'd up today so I don't know if he said it again, but when he was mic'd up Tuesday, he stressed quite forcefully: "All 5 to the boards! All 5!"
Now, I don't know if that's only his philosophy sometimes, but I'm guessing it's not. Every player on the floor has to find a man, put a body on him and go get the ball.
A couple other Scoopers talked about our need for a big so we can rebound better next season ... but if 3 or 4 guys on the floor either forget to box out or have poor fundamentals trying, it won't help much.
I listened to the game on the radio
Quote from: MU82 on January 15, 2022, 05:17:08 PM
Shaka wasn't mic'd up today so I don't know if he said it again, but when he was mic'd up Tuesday, he stressed quite forcefully: "All 5 to the boards! All 5!"
Now, I don't know if that's only his philosophy sometimes, but I'm guessing it's not. Every player on the floor has to find a man, put a body on him and go get the ball.
A couple other Scoopers talked about our need for a big so we can rebound better next season ... but if 3 or 4 guys on the floor either forget to box out or have poor fundamentals trying, it won't help much.
Nothing to support this but my eyeballs, but it seems we lose a maddening number of rebounds just by not grabbing the ball strongly with two hands. Not sure what can be done about that.
Just get stronger, Oso looked like a midget today against there bigs and Itejere looks the same, yes they need another big body next year
Pakuni
We lose a great deal of rebounds by simply mishandling the ball. We fumble the ball out of bounds more than any time I can remember. That I think is biggest part of the play fast mentality and they are too eager to perhaps move the ball. If not that, I do not have a clue on why they let so many balls slip out of their hands.
It was very frustrating to watch the guys get out rebounded time after time. I was screaming "Just get one rebound, please," over and over, and when they did they lost it out of bounds or fumbled it away. And there is this: a silver lining. MU beat a team that rebounded extremely well. I don't think there will be many teams that rebound as well as SH in the future. Just saying. Push butt under the rim and get up and fight. It will get better after facing competition like they did today. AND THEY WON. Enough said.
Statistically, Hall is just an okay rebounding team. Not sure how with all those bruisers
Quote from: rocket ALM surgeon on January 15, 2022, 03:10:52 PM
i may be wrong here(fee-fee will correct) but we seem to be pretty good in close games. we are a tenacious bunch with a little bit of ice water in the veins.
10 outta 10, hey?
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 15, 2022, 05:18:07 PM
Thanks for verifying
I guess we can have our cake and eat it too
It's definitely a bit confounding why we're so bad at rebounding, but it's year one, we're trending toward an NCAA bid, we are top-3 in the league in both eFG% offense and defense, and we're really fun to watch.
Maybe more important, one of our biggest gripes from a month ago was three point shooting and now we're second in 3PFG% in league games at 38.7%. We're seeing adjustments and improvement mid-season and it's so refreshing.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 15, 2022, 04:07:29 PM
All three bigs are not strong enough yet to rebound. Kuath is normally out of position as he try's to block everything which Leaves Prosper or a skinny guard, neither are strong and Lewis does not really want to rebound. Prosper today was brutal and Elliott was awful till the end. Kolek as well. To win with those guys giving nothing offensively is impressive
Seriously? Man, your takes are something.
Quote from: TSmith34 on January 16, 2022, 09:30:35 AM
Seriously? Man, your takes are something.
I'm assuming some of the questioning of Lewis effort is partly due to who recruited him and the NBA talk
Justin Lewis is the 7th best defensive rebounder in the Big East and 229th best in the country.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 16, 2022, 10:56:13 AM
Justin Lewis is the 7th best defensive rebounder in the Big East and 229th best in the country.
Imagine if he tried and didn't have bad body language and wasn't thinking about the NBA draft or his NIL deals
And blocked out!
Quote from: BrewCity83 on November 15, 2021, 11:05:53 AM
I hope you weren't happy with the way we got destroyed on the boards in the first half by New Hampshire. The 2nd half was better, but that's GOT to improve.
Not sure why anyone would be happy with the rebounding when we lost to DePaul and Hall 14 & 19 respectively on the boards. I'm not big on critiquing other poster's opinions, but, I didn't even go back to the other games and stopped at the last two to know how bad we rebound. I'm not sure if Shaka tells our guys not to follow their shots, but we shoot a lot of 3's, and our guards take off down court after they shoot. The longer the shot, the longer the rebound is pretty typical. It would be nice to follow our outside shots as I don't see our outside shooters being boxed out.
Secondly, Marquette either watches the ball and then chases it, or seems content because we are between their guy and the hoop that it constitutes "blocking out". I rarely see anyone from our team putting a body on a guy and actually fundamentally boxing out the right way.. Yes, we need to get stronger, but even more reason to be blocking out and doing it the right way. We can't get stronger overnight, but we can get better at boxing out. If we're going to beat these very same teams on the road let alone Nova, we can't keep giving up 2nd shots. We're not good enough not to be fundamentally sound.
Coach Smart says they work in it every day. That it is a matter of going and getting it and holding on to it. Watch the presser.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 16, 2022, 11:18:20 AM
And blocked out!
Imagine no effort but still gets a rebound while falling and gets an assist. But no, he doesn't want to try to ger a rebound.
Quote from: Newsdreams on January 16, 2022, 08:13:38 PM
Imagine no effort but still gets a rebound while falling and gets an assist. But no, he doesn't want to try to ger a rebound.
Wasn't Hoopster the original "he only gets the easy rebounds" guy? He has a thing about rebounders apparently.
Quote from: OffTheGlass on January 16, 2022, 03:25:30 PM
Not sure why anyone would be happy with the rebounding when we lost to DePaul and Hall 14 & 19 respectively on the boards. I'm not big on critiquing other poster's opinions, but, I didn't even go back to the other games and stopped at the last two to know how bad we rebound. I'm not sure if Shaka tells our guys not to follow their shots, but we shoot a lot of 3's, and our guards take off down court after they shoot. The longer the shot, the longer the rebound is pretty typical. It would be nice to follow our outside shots as I don't see our outside shooters being boxed out.
Secondly, Marquette either watches the ball and then chases it, or seems content because we are between their guy and the hoop that it constitutes "blocking out". I rarely see anyone from our team putting a body on a guy and actually fundamentally boxing out the right way.. Yes, we need to get stronger, but even more reason to be blocking out and doing it the right way. We can't get stronger overnight, but we can get better at boxing out. If we're going to beat these very same teams on the road let alone Nova, we can't keep giving up 2nd shots. We're not good enough not to be fundamentally sound.
I'm pretty sure most coaches would rather have their guards get down the floor rather than follow their shot. Pretty common in the NBA too.
Quote from: OffTheGlass on January 16, 2022, 03:25:30 PM
Not sure why anyone would be happy with the rebounding when we lost to DePaul and Hall 14 & 19 respectively on the boards. I'm not big on critiquing other poster's opinions, but, I didn't even go back to the other games and stopped at the last two to know how bad we rebound. I'm not sure if Shaka tells our guys not to follow their shots, but we shoot a lot of 3's, and our guards take off down court after they shoot. The longer the shot, the longer the rebound is pretty typical. It would be nice to follow our outside shots as I don't see our outside shooters being boxed out.
Secondly, Marquette either watches the ball and then chases it, or seems content because we are between their guy and the hoop that it constitutes "blocking out". I rarely see anyone from our team putting a body on a guy and actually fundamentally boxing out the right way.. Yes, we need to get stronger, but even more reason to be blocking out and doing it the right way. We can't get stronger overnight, but we can get better at boxing out. If we're going to beat these very same teams on the road let alone Nova, we can't keep giving up 2nd shots. We're not good enough not to be fundamentally sound.
I would worry about our defensive rebounding first. Agree, we will get beat badly if we can't start limiting second chance points.
Quote from: TheGym on January 16, 2022, 08:33:17 PM
I would worry about our defensive rebounding first. Agree, we will get beat badly if we can't start limiting second chance points.
Ya....we have to figure this out and PRONTO. It seens to me that O-Max and Morsell have to be the guys to increase their production on the glass. To your point you are playing with fire if you give decent teams multiple chances on every possession. Gotta really fight with stronger box outs, catching the ball with two hands, and far more overall tenacity and intelligence. Box out and grab the freaking ball.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 16, 2022, 09:50:48 PM
Ya....we have to figure this out and PRONTO. It seens to me that O-Max and Morsell have to be the guys to increase their production on the glass. To your point you are playing with fire if you give decent teams multiple chances on every possession. Gotta really fight with stronger box outs, catching the ball with two hands, and far more overall tenacity and intelligence. Box out and grab the freaking ball.
Doesn't seem to be the case. This year's team hasn't been and good rebounding team and most likely won't be. I would love to see this dilemma corrected PRONTO....but this team is finding ways to win. You have bitched about every Deficiency this year has. Since the start of your tenure here you have told us we must do A and we must do B or it's gonna be a long year, etc.
Maybe stop worrying about every little detail you can't control regarding this team and enjoy the ride hey?
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 16, 2022, 10:48:40 PM
Doesn't seem to be the case. This year's team hasn't been and good rebounding team and most likely won't be. I would love to see this dilemma corrected PRONTO....but this team is finding ways to win. You have bitched about every Deficiency this year has. Since the start of your tenure here you have told us we must do A and we must do B or it's gonna be a long year, etc.
Maybe stop worrying about every little detail you can't control regarding this team and enjoy the ride hey?
I'm not bitching about anything, it's about understanding this weakness is a serious problem. Our margin for error becomes much smaller when we get pounded on the glass. Consistently winning this way is nearly impossible, that's the point. In order to maximize our potential we have to find a way to rebound more effectively. I think most Scoopers agree with this sentiment.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 06:26:04 AM
I'm not bitching about anything, it's about understanding this weakness is a serious problem. Our margin for error becomes much smaller when we get pounded on the glass. Consistently winning this way is nearly impossible, that's the point. In order to maximize our potential we have to find a way to rebound more effectively. I think most Scoopers agree with this sentiment.
I wonder if the coaching staff notices the rebounding issues? Hard to say
Quote from: Uncle Rico on January 17, 2022, 06:46:44 AM
I wonder if the coaching staff notices the rebounding issues? Hard to say
I'm sure they do. Any remedies you recommend Uncle R?
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 07:21:31 AM
I'm sure they do. Any remedies you recommend Uncle R?
I think we should rebound the ball better.
Since unlikely the team will grow more this season.
On defense, just need to box out as well as possible.
On offense, if in good position for an offensive rebound, go for it, otherwise, get back on defense.
Maybe next year we Marquette have more length and mass.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 07:21:31 AM
I'm sure they do. Any remedies you recommend Uncle R?
Rebound better
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 07:21:31 AM
I'm sure they do. Any remedies you recommend Uncle R?
Extend the pressure, get more steals so the opponent doesn't get a chance to shoot.
Eat more Arby's.
Quote from: tower912 on January 17, 2022, 07:47:12 AM
Extend the pressure, get more steals so the opponent doesn't get a chance to shoot.
Eat more Arby's.
This very much sounds like contradictory advice tower.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 17, 2022, 07:51:04 AM
This very much sounds like contradictory advice tower.
Fair. Have all of the guards pressure more. Have all of the bigs eat more Arby's.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 06:26:04 AM
I'm not bitching about anything, it's about understanding this weakness is a serious problem. Our margin for error becomes much smaller when we get pounded on the glass. Consistently winning this way is nearly impossible, that's the point. In order to maximize our potential we have to find a way to rebound more effectively. I think most Scoopers agree with this sentiment.
There were many problems earlier in the season and most have been at least somewhat resolved. Kolek's shooting is getting better, but he may never be a great shooter. His other contributions easily more than offset his shooting, so ...relax. The rebounding also will likely get better also. I'm basing this statement solely on Shaka's and his staff's at least partial resolutions of many issues already so...relax.
With all that said, no question that continued poor rebounding could very well cost us some games. I'm not so naive to think that we will be a great rebounding team this season, but I think it will be the next area where you will see modest, maybe even fairly significant, improvement. Relax!
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 06:26:04 AM
I'm not bitching about anything, it's about understanding this weakness is a serious problem. Our margin for error becomes much smaller when we get pounded on the glass. Consistently winning this way is nearly impossible, that's the point. In order to maximize our potential we have to find a way to rebound more effectively. I think most Scoopers agree with this sentiment.
You have said in your posts:
We've gotta stop turning the ball over or there is no way we can win in the Big East.
We have to shoot 3s better or there is no way that we will win in the big East.
We have to rebound better or there is no way we will win in the big East.
We need Darryl to play like he did the first few games or we won't win in the big East.
This team isn't perfect. Enjoy the ride.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 17, 2022, 07:35:03 AM
I think we should rebound the ball better.
For all my fellow 90s kids out there.
(https://i.imgur.com/BcMjhoV.gif)
Didn't they use to put a bubble on the basket to practice rebounding?
Izzo has done something like that in the past. Of course, he has also put pads on players for that same drill.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 17, 2022, 08:34:33 AM
You have said in your posts:
We've gotta stop turning the ball over or there is no way we can win in the Big East.
We have to shoot 3s better or there is no way that we will win in the big East.
We have to rebound better or there is no way we will win in the big East.
We need Darryl to play like he did the first few games or we won't win in the big East.
This team isn't perfect. Enjoy the ride.
Alright. I'll try to chill a bit.
Like Shaka said postgame, I'm not sure this specific issue can be fixed this season. This seemed like it was bigger and stronger Seton Hall players ripping the ball out of the hands of our guys. Oso, Kur, and Omax are athletes, but they aren't winning any arm wrestling matches with Yetna or Obiagu.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2022, 09:35:58 AM
Like Shaka said postgame, I'm not sure this specific issue can be fixed this season. This seemed like it was bigger and stronger Seton Hall players ripping the ball out of the hands of our guys. Oso, Kur, and Omax are athletes, but they aren't winning any arm wrestling matches with Yetna or Obiagu.
Yeah in the first half when it started to be obvious that it was a problem, I specifically watched Oso on more than one occasion seek out Obiagu, stick his ass into him textbook for the seal, and Obiagu just went right over him. That was a massive size disparity, sometimes you just have to shrug your shoulders like when Aiken was hitting NBA step back 3's.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2022, 09:35:58 AM
Like Shaka said postgame, I'm not sure this specific issue can be fixed this season. This seemed like it was bigger and stronger Seton Hall players ripping the ball out of the hands of our guys. Oso, Kur, and Omax are athletes, but they aren't winning any arm wrestling matches with Yetna or Obiagu.
I don't think he said the issue couldn't be fixed this season? He said a lot of the time it's a matter of guys going and grabbing the ball aggressively. Said that sometimes when a team is getting beat up on the O-Boards it can become a psychological thing of more hoping to get a rebound - versus going and attacking. Mindset difference. He felt there were a lot of loose ball rebounds that we just didn't grab. There definitely are games where the rebounds just also oddly end up coming off favoring the offensive team.
That being said, we clearly aren't a good O-Rebounding team, but I think we can improve this season. In some of the games it has seemed as though the caroms have favored our opponent. We do need more production out of O-Max on the boards. Also, we give up a lot on the boards when we go to a smaller lineup having Greg Elliott and or Kam in the game versus O-Max - but gain on the offensive end.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on January 17, 2022, 09:56:52 AM
I don't think he said the issue couldn't be fixed this season? He said a lot of the time it's a matter of guys going and grabbing the ball aggressively. Said that sometimes when a team is getting beat up on the O-Boards it can become a psychological thing of more hoping to get a rebound - versus going and attacking. Mindset difference. He felt there were a lot of loose ball rebounds that we just didn't grab. There definitely are games where the rebounds just also oddly end up coming off favoring the offensive team.
That being said, we clearly aren't a good O-Rebounding team, but I think we can improve this season. In some of the games it has seemed as though the caroms have favored our opponent. We do need more production out of O-Max on the boards. Also, we give up a lot on the boards when we go to a smaller lineup having Greg Elliott and or Kam in the game versus O-Max - but gain on the offensive end.
Yes, he didn't say those words exactly. But the message was pretty clearly that they are bigger and stronger and we couldn't grab the ball as a result. Getting bigger and stronger is not something we can address midseason. Form and technique were not the problem this game.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 17, 2022, 09:33:12 AM
Alright. I'll try to chill a bit.
On the one hand, it's a fan board. We all speculate and worry and whine. You do it more than some and less than others.
On the other hand, getting a little less crazy about things you can't control would probably benefit your health over the long haul!
I actually think it's been a remarkable season so far, and I'm planning to keep enjoying the ride.
Quote from: MU82 on January 17, 2022, 10:05:40 AM
On the one hand, it's a fan board. We all speculate and worry and whine. You do it more than some and less than others.
On the other hand, getting a little less crazy about things you can't control would probably benefit your health over the long haul!
I actually think it's been a remarkable season so far, and I'm planning to keep enjoying the ride.
Well said. I really like Muggsy's enthusiasm but criminy! Take a deep breath once in a while. Then again, that's just Muggsy. Let him be himself. Like Kolek bringing a lot to the team, Muggsy brings a lot to scoop. He's also the poster boy for caffeine addiction.
Yup. Muggsy gotta Muggsy. Or else. Anything else is unacceptable.
It feels like at times all our guys need is a little spidertack. The rebound comes to them but suddenly seems to go the other way.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on January 17, 2022, 10:32:38 AM
It feels like at times all our guys need is a little spidertack. The rebound comes to them but suddenly seems to go the other way.
More medieval weapons is the key
Quote from: Newsdreams on January 17, 2022, 02:34:20 PM
More medieval weapons is the key
More flaying. Less cockstepping
Terrible offense, lots of one on one, missing some good looks. Yet if we were competitive on the boards we'd win this one going away.
Let's finish this one strong.
I mentioned this in the game thread, but wanted to see folks' thoughts. Is it possible to play as fast as Shaka wants to play and not give up a ton of offensive boards?
Off misses when we secure the rebound, Kolek typically pushes and has Morsell, Elliott, Jones already well ahead of him on the wing to receive the ball and open up the floor and initiate the offense early. To get up the floor, those guys can't crash the defensive glass. So we force a lot of misses where Kuath, Oso, Lewis get a body on a man but we're susceptible to guys flying in untouched to grab an offensive board.
Our leading rebounding guard is Kolek with 4 rebs and 30 mins per game. That's because he's hanging back to receive the ball and bring it up, so he doesn't need to get up the floor. Morsell is averaging 3.6 rebs and 30 mins. Elliott and Jones are averaging 1.5 rebs per game in 15-20 mins.
Is there a way to play fast and not get outrebounded this badly? Do Morsell, Elliott and Jones need to do a better job getting a body on someone before they release up the floor, or is it a different issue?
Wider bodies who are also mobile enough to guard all the switches on the perimeter. Probably not happening this year. Shaka gave more run to Joplin today, IMO specifically to put another 6'7 player out there.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 30, 2022, 02:24:54 PM
I mentioned this in the game thread, but wanted to see folks' thoughts. Is it possible to play as fast as Shaka wants to play and not give up a ton of offensive boards?
Off misses when we secure the rebound, Kolek typically pushes and has Morsell, Elliott, Jones already well ahead of him on the wing to receive the ball and open up the floor and initiate the offense early. To get up the floor, those guys can't crash the defensive glass. So we force a lot of misses where Kuath, Oso, Lewis get a body on a man but we're susceptible to guys flying in untouched to grab an offensive board.
Our leading rebounding guard is Kolek with 4 rebs and 30 mins per game. That's because he's hanging back to receive the ball and bring it up, so he doesn't need to get up the floor. Morsell is averaging 3.6 rebs and 30 mins. Elliott and Jones are averaging 1.5 rebs per game in 15-20 mins.
Is there a way to play fast and not get outrebounded this badly? Do Morsell, Elliott and Jones need to do a better job getting a body on someone before they release up the floor, or is it a different issue?
I brought this up a couple weeks ago. It makes sense, in theory, that you decide to play quick transition or to focus on getting defensive rebounding.
However, brew had stats that showed there's no real correlation.
So, you can accomplish both at the same time.
Rebounding has been an issue all year. We have length and some decent athletes. We do not aggressively go after rebounds like we do on defense, and we don't box out well, and are rarely in good position to out hustle the opponent. And ion a few rebounds a game we get it and it skips through our hands. We do get some rebounds but giving up second and third chances for opponents to score has been the norm.
I'm sure Shaka and staff are working on it.
They need to work harder.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on January 30, 2022, 09:14:50 PM
They need to work harder.
I think it's mostly about fundamentals and being more proactive than reactive. Our 5's had a rough game on the glass today and both guys are quite capable. Box out and grab and secure the rock with two hands. Refuse to get bullied.
We have a number of rebounding issues. I think it can be improved, but probably not fixed.
First, defensively, Kur and Oso both pursue shot blocks. This often takes our bigs out of position to get rebounds. In addition, neither are thick, so they can be moved off their position (see Nate Watson two-hand shoving Kur out of the way on the winning and-one).
Also defensively, we switch everything, which can lead to mismatches. Generally, we have good one-on-one defenders with the ability to rebound, but when it ends with a 6'3" guard isolated on a 6'8" forward, that is a rebounding disadvantage.
On offense, it seems to be de-emphasized. Justin and O-Max are both far less aggressive on the offensive glass than last year. Morsell and Kuath have career-worst offensive rebounding numbers. We're more focused on getting back and limiting transition.
I think the offensive end is more fixable than the defensive end. No matter what we do, Kur and Oso aren't gaining 20 pounds of muscle each in the next month, and their shot blocking threat is what fuels our (more important) eFG% defense, which is top-25 nationally and #1 in the Big East. And the switching is the crux of the defense. We've had plenty of possessions where we give up 2-3 offensive rebounds and still get the stop, so I think the staff is willing to live with that as long as our defenders are holding up.
Offensively, however, if you just send 1-2 guys to the glass it could make a difference, and we have the players to do it. We haven't been killed in transition in awhile, and it usually happens against slower-paced teams (Bonnies and Wisconsin are good examples). I'd like to see them have one guard and forward focused on crashing the offensive glass. Kolek and Stevie have both proven able in that regard, as have Justin and O-Max. If you want Morsell and the big getting back, fine, but at least use a couple guys to try to get second chance points. Even cutting that 22-1 margin down to 22-5 would've meant the difference in the game yesterday, and while I understand the logic behind getting back to set the defense, there's no statistical correlation between poor offensive rebounding teams and teams that are good at limiting transition points.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2022, 12:04:03 PM
We have a number of rebounding issues. I think it can be improved, but probably not fixed.
First, defensively, Kur and Oso both pursue shot blocks. This often takes our bigs out of position to get rebounds. In addition, neither are thick, so they can be moved off their position (see Nate Watson two-hand shoving Kur out of the way on the winning and-one).
Also defensively, we switch everything, which can lead to mismatches. Generally, we have good one-on-one defenders with the ability to rebound, but when it ends with a 6'3" guard isolated on a 6'8" forward, that is a rebounding disadvantage.
On offense, it seems to be de-emphasized. Justin and O-Max are both far less aggressive on the offensive glass than last year. Morsell and Kuath have career-worst offensive rebounding numbers. We're more focused on getting back and limiting transition.
I think the offensive end is more fixable than the defensive end. No matter what we do, Kur and Oso aren't gaining 20 pounds of muscle each in the next month, and their shot blocking threat is what fuels our (more important) eFG% defense, which is top-25 nationally and #1 in the Big East. And the switching is the crux of the defense. We've had plenty of possessions where we give up 2-3 offensive rebounds and still get the stop, so I think the staff is willing to live with that as long as our defenders are holding up.
Offensively, however, if you just send 1-2 guys to the glass it could make a difference, and we have the players to do it. We haven't been killed in transition in awhile, and it usually happens against slower-paced teams (Bonnies and Wisconsin are good examples). I'd like to see them have one guard and forward focused on crashing the offensive glass. Kolek and Stevie have both proven able in that regard, as have Justin and O-Max. If you want Morsell and the big getting back, fine, but at least use a couple guys to try to get second chance points. Even cutting that 22-1 margin down to 22-5 would've meant the difference in the game yesterday, and while I understand the logic behind getting back to set the defense, there's no statistical correlation between poor offensive rebounding teams and teams that are good at limiting transition points.
Great points, brew, and I like your suggestion on how to pick up a few offensive boards, and you're right that it could be the difference in a game. For example, Greg had a very timely offensive rebound yesterday, and it could have been a 3-point play that would have helped us win. O-Max, especially, could be an effective offensive rebounder.
On the defensive boards, I'll keep saying exactly what Shaka did during the mic'd up game: "All 5 guys have to rebound." A lot of the boards we don't get go off players' hands and ricochet into the mid-lane or mid-wing areas, but our guards are just standing outside the arc, or breaking out on offense assuming one of our bigs will get the ball.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2022, 12:04:03 PM
We have a number of rebounding issues. I think it can be improved, but probably not fixed.
First, defensively, Kur and Oso both pursue shot blocks. This often takes our bigs out of position to get rebounds. In addition, neither are thick, so they can be moved off their position (see Nate Watson two-hand shoving Kur out of the way on the winning and-one).
Also defensively, we switch everything, which can lead to mismatches. Generally, we have good one-on-one defenders with the ability to rebound, but when it ends with a 6'3" guard isolated on a 6'8" forward, that is a rebounding disadvantage.
On offense, it seems to be de-emphasized. Justin and O-Max are both far less aggressive on the offensive glass than last year. Morsell and Kuath have career-worst offensive rebounding numbers. We're more focused on getting back and limiting transition.
I think the offensive end is more fixable than the defensive end. No matter what we do, Kur and Oso aren't gaining 20 pounds of muscle each in the next month, and their shot blocking threat is what fuels our (more important) eFG% defense, which is top-25 nationally and #1 in the Big East. And the switching is the crux of the defense. We've had plenty of possessions where we give up 2-3 offensive rebounds and still get the stop, so I think the staff is willing to live with that as long as our defenders are holding up.
Offensively, however, if you just send 1-2 guys to the glass it could make a difference, and we have the players to do it. We haven't been killed in transition in awhile, and it usually happens against slower-paced teams (Bonnies and Wisconsin are good examples). I'd like to see them have one guard and forward focused on crashing the offensive glass. Kolek and Stevie have both proven able in that regard, as have Justin and O-Max. If you want Morsell and the big getting back, fine, but at least use a couple guys to try to get second chance points. Even cutting that 22-1 margin down to 22-5 would've meant the difference in the game yesterday, and while I understand the logic behind getting back to set the defense, there's no statistical correlation between poor offensive rebounding teams and teams that are good at limiting transition points.
Fair enough Brew but O-Max and Morsell in particular have to find a way to rebound the basketball. I certainly understand it's difficult for Kur and Oso when they are helping and trying to block shots but there are also many possessions when they aren't blocking shots and they are without question strong enough to screen out and get the ball. More importantly, and this is a recurring problem imo, we simply do not catch the ball far too often when we are in position. CATCH THE BALl! WiTH TWO HANDS, TWO HANDS!! I would imagine every scooper has screamed this during our games on a regular basis. How many freaking times have we had a hand or hands on the rock and we still cannot secure the basketball???
We kick the crap out of Providence if we grab the basketball. 23 second chance points??!!! Can't happen. I really think this team can make some noise if we find a way to improve on the glass. The fact is Brew we kicked a comfortable road win away yesterday because we more times than not could not snag rebounds. Ergo we continually have a small margin for error. Grab the ball, rebound the freaking rock like your hair is on fire, celebrate W's, and everyone is happy.
Wouldn't only losing by 2 despite a 22 point disadvantage on second chance points mean we actually have a large margin for error?
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2022, 12:04:03 PM
We have a number of rebounding issues. I think it can be improved, but probably not fixed.
First, defensively, Kur and Oso both pursue shot blocks. This often takes our bigs out of position to get rebounds. In addition, neither are thick, so they can be moved off their position (see Nate Watson two-hand shoving Kur out of the way on the winning and-one).
Also defensively, we switch everything, which can lead to mismatches. Generally, we have good one-on-one defenders with the ability to rebound, but when it ends with a 6'3" guard isolated on a 6'8" forward, that is a rebounding disadvantage.
On offense, it seems to be de-emphasized. Justin and O-Max are both far less aggressive on the offensive glass than last year. Morsell and Kuath have career-worst offensive rebounding numbers. We're more focused on getting back and limiting transition.
I think the offensive end is more fixable than the defensive end. No matter what we do, Kur and Oso aren't gaining 20 pounds of muscle each in the next month, and their shot blocking threat is what fuels our (more important) eFG% defense, which is top-25 nationally and #1 in the Big East. And the switching is the crux of the defense. We've had plenty of possessions where we give up 2-3 offensive rebounds and still get the stop, so I think the staff is willing to live with that as long as our defenders are holding up.
Offensively, however, if you just send 1-2 guys to the glass it could make a difference, and we have the players to do it. We haven't been killed in transition in awhile, and it usually happens against slower-paced teams (Bonnies and Wisconsin are good examples). I'd like to see them have one guard and forward focused on crashing the offensive glass. Kolek and Stevie have both proven able in that regard, as have Justin and O-Max. If you want Morsell and the big getting back, fine, but at least use a couple guys to try to get second chance points. Even cutting that 22-1 margin down to 22-5 would've meant the difference in the game yesterday, and while I understand the logic behind getting back to set the defense, there's no statistical correlation between poor offensive rebounding teams and teams that are good at limiting transition points.
Excellent summary Brew. Only thing I would add is that we also help on every drive to the bucket. So even if Kur/Oso isn't going for a block, they are still moving over to wall up and try to alter the shot. That means someone isn't being boxed out on the weak side.
I also can't think of the last time one of our rebounders successfully tipped the ball to a teammate. I'm sure it actually happens at least once a game but it feels like all of our attempted tip outs go straight to an opponent whereas the opposite is true when the opponent gets the tip. At some point, that's not just dumb luck.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 31, 2022, 02:27:36 PM
Wouldn't only losing by 2 despite a 22 point disadvantage on second chance points mean we actually have a large margin for error?
We couldn't put the game away because they constantly got multiple shots per possession. That's what happened. So if you allow points constantly on possessions, because you literally cannot get a rebound, you make it much more difficult to win despite a few anomalies.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 31, 2022, 02:49:43 PM
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 31, 2022, 02:27:36 PM
Wouldn't only losing by 2 despite a 22 point disadvantage on second chance points mean we actually have a large margin for error?
We couldn't put the game away because they constantly got multiple shots per possession. That's what happened. So if you allow points constantly on possessions, because you literally cannot get a rebound, you make it much more difficult to win despite a few anomalies.
So we can allow a 22 point disparity (which I think is our worst of the season) in second chance points and only lose by 2 on the road to a ranked team. That seems like a pretty big margin of error. A 20 point margin of error.
I'm mostly gigging you Muggsy. The rebounding is an issue, but our team has been good enough in other areas to more than make up for it on most nights.
Quote from: MuggsyB on January 31, 2022, 02:14:08 PMThe fact is Brew we kicked a comfortable road win away yesterday because we more times than not could not snag rebounds.
I get it. But here's the reality. Our general expectation this year ranged from bottom of the league to bubble team. Even if we only beat Butler and Georgetown from here on out, we're likely dancing, so while the recalibration makes Sunday disappointing, on the whole it's fine.
Second, while our rebounding sucks, it's the third most important of the four factors. We are #1/#1 in offensive/defensive eFG% in league play, which is most important. We are #4/#2 in turnover rate, which is second most important. The staff understands what they need to do to win and have worked to get this team good at the most important things.
This isn't a one-year sprint, it's a multi-year process. I don't need Shaka to cut down nets in Chicago or New Orleans to convince me we're headed in the right direction. I look at Oso and O-Max and Keeyan and Joplin and think those are guys that will be here for years and will grow into good rebounders, even if they aren't yet. My expectations have been exceeded, the staff has proven they know what results they want and know how to get them, and whether this year ends in a first weekend loss or a dream NCAA run, I'm already pleased at the place we're in.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2022, 04:23:52 PM
I get it. But here's the reality. Our general expectation this year ranged from bottom of the league to bubble team. Even if we only beat Butler and Georgetown from here on out, we're likely dancing, so while the recalibration makes Sunday disappointing, on the whole it's fine.
Second, while our rebounding sucks, it's the third most important of the four factors. We are #1/#1 in offensive/defensive eFG% in league play, which is most important. We are #4/#2 in turnover rate, which is second most important. The staff understands what they need to do to win and have worked to get this team good at the most important things.
This isn't a one-year sprint, it's a multi-year process. I don't need Shaka to cut down nets in Chicago or New Orleans to convince me we're headed in the right direction. I look at Oso and O-Max and Keeyan and Joplin and think those are guys that will be here for years and will grow into good rebounders, even if they aren't yet. My expectations have been exceeded, the staff has proven they know what results they want and know how to get them, and whether this year ends in a first weekend loss or a dream NCAA run, I'm already pleased at the place we're in.
All of this. It's entirely possible the Quette loses a game in March because of rebounding but it's also true Marq may not have had that opportunity without what they've become quite good at.
It stinks the rebounding is so bad. At this point, the hope is they get to bad from very bad.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2022, 04:23:52 PM
This isn't a one-year sprint, it's a multi-year process. I don't need Shaka to cut down nets in Chicago or New Orleans to convince me we're headed in the right direction.
Totally agree with this, though some don't like hearing those words ... especially "process."
This year's been a blast already. Hoping it gets even better, of course, but I'm sure liking what I'm seeing for long-term success.
The rebounding problem could be fixed fairly easily.
It would mean more bigs on the floor more often, less shot blocking and intimidation in the lane, less ball flow on offense, plus a few other things.
I am as frustrated as anyone, but am not willing to make the trade-off.
Oso and Kuath really can't play together except in end game defensive combinations. To get more size would mean to nearly always have two out of three of Joplin, OMP, and Lewis on the floor with very few 3 guard looks. I don't see that making MU a better team.
Quote from: tower912 on January 31, 2022, 07:54:07 PM
Oso and Kuath really can't play together except in end game defensive combinations. To get more size would mean to nearly always have two out of three of Joplin, OMP, and Lewis on the floor with very few 3 guard looks. I don't see that making MU a better team.
Yep, playing together is totally situational for a few seconds.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2022, 04:23:52 PM
I get it. But here's the reality. Our general expectation this year ranged from bottom of the league to bubble team. Even if we only beat Butler and Georgetown from here on out, we're likely dancing, so while the recalibration makes Sunday disappointing, on the whole it's fine.
Second, while our rebounding sucks, it's the third most important of the four factors. We are #1/#1 in offensive/defensive eFG% in league play, which is most important. We are #4/#2 in turnover rate, which is second most important. The staff understands what they need to do to win and have worked to get this team good at the most important things.
This isn't a one-year sprint, it's a multi-year process. I don't need Shaka to cut down nets in Chicago or New Orleans to convince me we're headed in the right direction. I look at Oso and O-Max and Keeyan and Joplin and think those are guys that will be here for years and will grow into good rebounders, even if they aren't yet. My expectations have been exceeded, the staff has proven they know what results they want and know how to get them, and whether this year ends in a first weekend loss or a dream NCAA run, I'm already pleased at the place we're in.
All very solid points Brew and I greatly respect your knowledge and opinions. As far as expectations I felt we would be better than people think although I generally believe this every year. At the same time I don't think most people (myself included) knew what we really had roster wise.
What I did say, and have said for many years, is that you're not automatically in rebuilding mode when there's a coaching change. Things can move at warp speed with a certain coach or a couple of players even at non blueblood schools.
Now that we have seen our guys for 20+ games I think we all know this is a formidable group with solid potential. Expectations have changed imo and they should. I think you would agree that MU is right there in the top tier in the BEast from a roster and talent perspective Brew. I've watched the other teams very closely and Marquette can take all of them. This has nothing to do with my bias, it's just a cold hard fact. So when we lose a game, when it's quite obvious we were in control and have better overall pieces, I get a bit upset. Bouncing back Wednesday night is imperative.
I get that both personnel and scheme cause us to be a bad rebounding team. But this is VERY concerning for what I would love to be a very fun March. You cannot be doubled up on the boards and expect to win games. You can make up possessions in other ways, but you have to at least compete on the boards. Get position, fight to hold position, and grab the dang ball. Goal should be remain within 8 or so boards. That's a very bad rebounding margin, but if we just do that we are extremely dangerous.
Absolutely embarrassed.
SUCKS!
Sanogo and ugly ass Martin alone outrebounded Marquette by more than a couple.
It's the reality. Have to win in spite of it and realize it can and probably will cost us. Shaka and the team cleary realize it's an issue.
Maybe they will play with a smaller lineup more
Deficiency in rebounding will end our season is my read at this stage.
I'm not saying Shaka hasn't done a great job (beyond my wildest expectations), but our poor rebounding will kill us, somewhere, at some level.
He's done such a good job on so many levels, can he figure this out?
Said this in another thread but starting to notice teams are crashing 4+ players on the offensive boards against us. We need to make them pay with some transition buckets.
I understand most of the time we need 5 players to defensive rebound, but it would be nice to release a player or two when the other team over-commits.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on February 08, 2022, 09:45:51 PM
Said this in another thread but starting to notice teams are crashing 4+ players on the offensive boards against us. We need to make them pay with some transition buckets.
I understand most of the time we need 5 players to defensive rebound, but it would be nice to release a player or two when the other team over-commits.
Yes...but you have to be able to get the rebound to start the transition, so there's the rub. I think MU should actually abandon the transition game in order to address the glaring weakness on defensive rebounding.
In each of our last two losses, our starting center has grabbed exactly 1 rebound. I know it's not his strength, but you'd think a P6 starting 6-10 center would accidentally get 3 or 4 boards.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on February 08, 2022, 09:49:40 PM
Yes...but you have to be able to get the rebound to start the transition, so there's the rub. I think MU should actually abandon the transition game in order to address the glaring weakness on defensive rebounding.
Agree 100%. We need to send all 5 to the defensive boards. All the guards on our roster combined for 5 rebounds tonight. We can't have that. Shaka emphasized "all 5 to the boards" in the mic'd up game, so I'm guessing he has emphasized it many other times. And yet there's still too much standing and watching.
Love our team, and I think we can and will win NCAAT games despite it ... but it's hard to watch so many otherwise good defensive stands ruined by an inability to get the boards.
Quote from: MU82 on February 08, 2022, 09:55:47 PM
In each of our last two losses, our starting center has grabbed exactly 1 rebound. I know it's not his strength, but you'd think a P6 starting 6-10 center would accidentally get 3 or 4 boards.
Agree 100%. We need to send all 5 to the defensive boards. All the guards on our roster combined for 5 rebounds tonight. We can't have that. Shaka emphasized "all 5 to the boards" in the mic'd up game, so I'm guessing he has emphasized it many other times. And yet there's still too much standing and watching.
Love our team, and I think we can and will win NCAAT games despite it ... but it's hard to watch so many otherwise good defensive stands ruined by an inability to get the boards.
Martin+Sanogo = 30 rebounds (15 each)
KK+Oso = 3
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 08, 2022, 10:07:27 PM
Martin+Sanogo = 30 rebounds (15 each)
KK+Oso = 3
Hey, we had 1/10th as many ... you act like that's a bad thing!
We are going to give up rebounds to bigger forwards, what drives me crazy is Morsell ball watching as his guy crashes the boards. Even if we want to not send five guys to the boards in order to start a quick transition, our guards can still throw a body into their guy on the perimeter. At the very least it might stall them just a bit getting to the hoop so our guys have a better chance of securing a rebound. Drives me nuts when opposing teams guards get offensive rebounds. Have to be mentally checked in every play.
Quote from: MU82 on February 08, 2022, 09:55:47 PM
In each of our last two losses, our starting center has grabbed exactly 1 rebound. I know it's not his strength, but you'd think a P6 starting 6-10 center would accidentally get 3 or 4 boards.
Agree 100%. We need to send all 5 to the defensive boards. All the guards on our roster combined for 5 rebounds tonight. We can't have that. Shaka emphasized "all 5 to the boards" in the mic'd up game, so I'm guessing he has emphasized it many other times. And yet there's still too much standing and watching.
Love our team, and I think we can and will win NCAAT games despite it ... but it's hard to watch so many otherwise good defensive stands ruined by an inability to get the boards.
Yes heard Shaka say that is a huddle. The question is, why does that not only not happen all the time, but why does it it never happen?
I've heard that Shaka doesn't believe in practicing rebounding. He leaves that for guys to work on their own.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 09, 2022, 12:14:34 AM
I've heard that Shaka doesn't believe in practicing rebounding. He leaves that for guys to work on their own.
The rebounding is definitely a huge hindrance. Shaka needs to bring in at least 2 bruisers for the future. Can he do that? Nonviolence yet.
Quote from: Daniel on February 08, 2022, 11:56:48 PM
Yes heard Shaka say that is a huddle. The question is, why does that not only not happen all the time, but why does it it never happen?
He should tell them to rebound harder. That would fix it.
Rebounds no matta, hey?
Quote from: Daniel on February 08, 2022, 11:56:48 PM
Yes heard Shaka say that is a huddle. The question is, why does that not only not happen all the time, but why does it it never happen?
You can send 5 to the boards, but their bigs move our skinny dudes and tap it back out to the perimeter. Happened twice on that mega-possession.
Quote from: tower912 on February 09, 2022, 06:18:07 AM
He should tell them to rebound harder. That would fix it.
Porter Moser would tell them that. Also, Shaka should yell more. Yelling = results. Might have a Shaka-Deane situation on our hands
Quote from: Daniel on February 08, 2022, 11:56:48 PM
Yes heard Shaka say that is a huddle. The question is, why does that not only not happen all the time, but why does it it never happen?
You don't want to send five to the boards all the time if you want to break the other way. Furthermore you can send five bad rebounders to the boards, but they are still going to be bad rebounders.
Rebounding is a skill like any other. No matter how much you practice, some are just going to be better than others. And experience means something.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on February 09, 2022, 07:02:01 AM
Porter Moser would tell them that. Also, Shaka should yell more. Yelling = results. Might have a Shaka-Deane situation on our hands
He needs to pick up more technicals too. That would fire up the team!
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 09, 2022, 07:02:44 AM
He needs to pick up more technicals too. That would fire up the team!
Have to wonder if Shaka has the fire to be an effective in-game coach
Other than Lewis, rebounding sucked. However, Morsell, Kolek, Jones, Oso shooting a combined 5-28 sucked too.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 09, 2022, 07:02:44 AM
He needs to pick up more technicals too. That would fire up the team!
Breaking a whiteboard would certainly help.
Quote from: MUfan12 on February 09, 2022, 06:30:12 AM
You can send 5 to the boards, but their bigs move our skinny dudes and tap it back out to the perimeter. Happened twice on that mega-possession.
Yes, there will be times when you are in perfect position and all 5 go to the boards and you still don't get the defensive rebound. Sometimes the ball bounces funny, sometimes an offensive rebounder gets away with a subtle (or even not-so-subtle) foul, sometimes the shot was an airball so boxing out actually has a negative effect, sometimes an opponent just makes a great play.
But if the entire team on the floor has a rebounding mindset -- find a man, box out, attack the ball -- I'll take my chances on how the defensive rebounding goes over the course of a game.
We have been physically overmatched a few times, but not in most games. There are only so many Sanogos and Watsons in college basketball today, and even Watson did squadoosh against us the first game. Tyrese Martin is a good player, but he's hardly a bodybuilder; he averages 6 boards, not 15. Against many (maybe even most) opponents, we have enough size and strength. It's not only about the bigs; Lewis, O-Max and Morsell have the strength advantage over their opponents most of the time. Our players also have an inordinate number of rebounds just go through their hands, which is weird.
Rebounding is largely about positioning and "want-to." Given how hard our team plays in every other facet, I've been a little disappointed to see how often Morsell or Elliott or Kam stands and watches from 15 feet away or more; or how often Kuath or O-Max don't even try to find a body.
Obviously, we're not gonna be a good rebounding team this season, but we can still get better than we are.
Probably the best rebounder of all time was Dennis Rodman who was 6'7" and about 220 lbs; not a big guy by NBA standards. He studied intensely how the ball comes off the rim based upon where it was shot from and positioned himself for the rebound and boxing out. The latter is a lost art in college hoops. Moral of the story; you don't have to be a giant to dominate the boards. It's a taught ( sometimes self taught) skill and mindset.
As I've said before, I don't expect this to get fixed this year. There are little things that might mitigate the problem. Teams that rebound the hell out of the ball are going to be tough matchups for us. UConn, Houston, Baylor, Kentucky, Purdue, those are just the kind of teams that make our lives difficult.
It was a bit disappointing to look last night and see the #2 Defensive Rebounder in the country was a grad transfer this year that played for Shaka last year -- Royce Hamm at UNLV. A wide-body that vacuums the defensive glass would really help this team. As it is, we need to mitigate offensive rebounds by standing strong in long defensive possessions and creating turnovers to make up the effective possession gap.
Honestly, as much as the rebounds hurt last night, if Morsell and Justin hit their FTs and one more of the open looks from deep we got falls, we probably have a chance to win or tie in the final minute. Even with things as they were, we still had the ball down 3 in the closing minutes of the game, so it's not like we didn't have the opportunity to overcome that deficiency. We've seen it work in the past and this team has been in position to win every game since UCLA.
So we live with it and hope our positives can overcome that negative. Going forward, we will lose Morsell and Kuath and have an open scholarship. Who knows about Justin and Greg, but both could potentially go as well. That means we can bring in 1-2 extra bodies that could help in that regard. Fardaws Aimaq, Jayveous McKinnis, there are guys out there that fit the bill.
Quote from: Superfan on February 09, 2022, 08:30:38 AM
Probably the best rebounder of all time was Dennis Rodman who was 6'7" and about 220 lbs; not a big guy by NBA standards. He studied intensely how the ball comes off the rim based upon where it was shot from and positioned himself for the rebound and boxing out. The latter is a lost art in college hoops. Moral of the story; you don't have to be a giant to dominate the boards. It's a taught ( sometimes self taught) skill and mindset.
I agree Rodman had a great nose for the ball, but if he was a dumb rebounder he still would have averaged 9 boards a game. The man could jump high and up and down like a pogo stick.
I also don't think it is easy to judge where a rebound is going to go. A lot of that is instinctive and is gained only through experience.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 09, 2022, 08:31:15 AM
As I've said before, I don't expect this to get fixed this year. There are little things that might mitigate the problem. Teams that rebound the hell out of the ball are going to be tough matchups for us. UConn, Houston, Baylor, Kentucky, Purdue, those are just the kind of teams that make our lives difficult.
It was a bit disappointing to look last night and see the #2 Defensive Rebounder in the country was a grad transfer this year that played for Shaka last year -- Royce Hamm at UNLV. A wide-body that vacuums the defensive glass would really help this team. As it is, we need to mitigate offensive rebounds by standing strong in long defensive possessions and creating turnovers to make up the effective possession gap.
Honestly, as much as the rebounds hurt last night, if Morsell and Justin hit their FTs and one more of the open looks from deep we got falls, we probably have a chance to win or tie in the final minute. Even with things as they were, we still had the ball down 3 in the closing minutes of the game, so it's not like we didn't have the opportunity to overcome that deficiency. We've seen it work in the past and this team has been in position to win every game since UCLA.
So we live with it and hope our positives can overcome that negative. Going forward, we will lose Morsell and Kuath and have an open scholarship. Who knows about Justin and Greg, but both could potentially go as well. That means we can bring in 1-2 extra bodies that could help in that regard. Fardaws Aimaq, Jayveous McKinnis, there are guys out there that fit the bill.
Hamm was at 20 DR% under shaka for a reason. It is scheme based. They need to improve the rebounding it is no question, but it isnt as if this teams DRB% is significantly worst than his texas teams. He had two texas teams with worst DRB%.
Last nights game was more about the early defensive lapses, a slightly hot three point night from UCONN, throwing the ball away late, and us missing some free throws.
They'll get a transfer, and depending on his feel early next year Keeyan could make an early impact with his athleticism. I wouldn't speculate on whole the transfer is, 10+ more coaches still will be fired. I'd look more at body types rather than rbd%. Fardaws wouldn't fit at all.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 09, 2022, 11:00:54 AM
Last nights game was more about the early defensive lapses, a slightly hot three point night from UCONN, throwing the ball away late, and us missing some free throws.
So you're saying last night's loss wasn't at all about us getting brutalized on the boards? Not sure I'll buy that, though I agree with the other things you mentioned that also contributed to the loss.
When UConn went on their big first half run, it was about getting out in transition and absolutely torching the nets from three. IMO Marquette could have handled the rebounding issue better had they clamped down on defense a little better to start.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on February 09, 2022, 10:22:56 AM
I agree Rodman had a great nose for the ball, but if he was a dumb rebounder he still would have averaged 9 boards a game. The man could jump high and up and down like a pogo stick.
There's really no point comparing guys to Rodman. The guy was an absolute freak
of nature. His leg strength, motor, and overall athleticism was as good as anyone in the history of the league. Phil Jackson said he was best athlete he ever coached. I've always wondered how good he could have been if he cared about offense and took care of himself off the floor. He's the only guy I have ever seen who could legitimately guard all 5 positions at an elite level.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on February 09, 2022, 11:05:34 AM
When UConn went on their big first half run, it was about getting out in transition and absolutely torching the nets from three. IMO Marquette could have handled the rebounding issue better had they clamped down on defense a little better to start.
This is exactly what happened. The game was lost because of our transition defense along with the rebounding. So when
Kolek went to the basket like 5 times and got blocked, or bricked, it led to wide open transition opportunities. They may not count as turns but that's essentially what they were. This is the same team that scored 47pts at home vs Creighton. We allowed them to get out in the open floor from poor shot selection and bad transition D. Stop the ball.
"Stop the ball" sounds easy, but when you have one shooter standing in each corner, your big near the hoop and then your PG drives and gets rejected, you have 4 of your 5 players way behind and having to catch up.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on February 09, 2022, 10:22:56 AM
I agree Rodman had a great nose for the ball, but if he was a dumb rebounder he still would have averaged 9 boards a game. The man could jump high and up and down like a pogo stick.
Agree with You both. Also recall Shaka bringing up Dennis Rodman on the radio after one of Marquette's games this year. Saying something like We do not have Dennis Rodman on our team.
This rebounding argument will be around as long as Shaka is. It's length may rival the NM thread in length before it's over.
Over his 13 year coaching career, his teams have averaged a 31% OR rate or 146. In Power 5 where he retired Havoc, it's 28% with an average rank of 184. Like the Badgers, the defense stresses getting back versus crashing the boards. The overall defense scheme's have rated tops, though.
Similarly, his teams have averaged 32% DR over 13 years, same as this MU team. For P5, it's 30%. Overall, his teams are ranked 242 for all and 252 for P5.
Why? MU has a a defensive focus that pressures the ball to cause turnovers, deflections, and disrupt the offense. It employs various schemes within a possession (zone trap to man), various switching schemes to confuse the offense including a triple switch seen in the NBA. These are essential zones and zone teams are notoriously bad rebounding teams.
While we can get better on rebounding, look at the total defensive rating.
I agree with you Dr.B. The same defense that creates the deflections, turnovers, and contested shots, does not lend itself to great rebounding. I particularly like that you noticed the switching schemes. I first mentioned them at Villanova. It is almost as if he is using zone principles on the weak side to keep the defenders from picking themselves and to attempt to keep size down low.
It did not work as well against UConn. Give the Huskies props.
Yes, MU could be stronger with the ball. That is probably not going to get fixed this year. Ride the wave as long as we can and enjoy.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 09, 2022, 08:03:49 PM
This rebounding argument will be around as long as Shaka is. It's length may rival the NM thread in length before it's over.
Over his 13 year coaching career, his teams have averaged a 31% OR rate or 146. In Power 5 where he retired Havoc, it's 28% with an average rank of 184. Like the Badgers, the defense stresses getting back versus crashing the boards. The overall defense scheme's have rated tops, though.
Similarly, his teams have averaged 32% DR over 13 years, same as this MU team. For P5, it's 30%. Overall, his teams are ranked 242 for all and 252 for P5.
Why? MU has a a defensive focus that pressures the ball to cause turnovers, deflections, and disrupt the offense. It employs various schemes within a possession (zone trap to man), various switching schemes to confuse the offense including a triple switch seen in the NBA. These are essential zones and zone teams are notoriously bad rebounding teams.
While we can get better on rebounding, look at the total defensive rating.
Excellent explanation - Thanks, Dr. B.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 09, 2022, 08:03:49 PM
This rebounding argument will be around as long as Shaka is. It's length may rival the NM thread in length before it's over.
Over his 13 year coaching career, his teams have averaged a 31% OR rate or 146. In Power 5 where he retired Havoc, it's 28% with an average rank of 184. Like the Badgers, the defense stresses getting back versus crashing the boards. The overall defense scheme's have rated tops, though.
Similarly, his teams have averaged 32% DR over 13 years, same as this MU team. For P5, it's 30%. Overall, his teams are ranked 242 for all and 252 for P5.
Why? MU has a a defensive focus that pressures the ball to cause turnovers, deflections, and disrupt the offense. It employs various schemes within a possession (zone trap to man), various switching schemes to confuse the offense including a triple switch seen in the NBA. These are essential zones and zone teams are notoriously bad rebounding teams.
While we can get better on rebounding, look at the total defensive rating.
Yeah with the D we run itll never be elite or even very good rebounding.
But a lot of the issue this year is just really, really poor and/or weak hands. We drop a lot of balls or have them taken away. That can be fixed/improved
Just won't win games when you're doubled up on the boards.
Nevermind. Not doubled up. 12-2 in rebounds.
Quote from: BLM on February 12, 2022, 03:52:53 PM
Nevermind. Not doubled up. 12-2 in rebounds.
Something something something "turnovers vs rebounds"
Quote from: fjm on February 12, 2022, 04:08:06 PM
Something something something "turnovers vs rebounds"
Yup. Losing the boards is one thing. Losing the boards by 20 is completely different.
In our 5 worst defensive rebounding games we are 4-1.... but please lets just continue talking about rebounding when it is not even a top 5 problem right now.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 12, 2022, 04:25:15 PM
In our 5 worst defensive rebounding games we are 4-1.... but please lets just continue talking about rebounding when it is not even a top 5 problem right now.
It isn't? We were outrebounded by 20 in a loss last game and are being outrebounded by 10 at half while being blitzed tonight. Not to mention the offensive rebound that won Providence the game 4 games ago.
Quote from: BLM on February 12, 2022, 04:28:38 PM
It isn't? We were outrebounded by 20 in a loss last game and are being outrebounded by 10 at half while being blitzed tonight. Not to mention the offensive rebound that won Providence the game 4 games ago.
5 worst defensive rebounding games. Illinois, Home against providence, Depaul, Home againist SHU, and @ Uconn.
Biggest problem right now is transition defense. I think in the last two games its north of 1.4 ppp. Honestly the offensive boards are worse than the defensive boards. Morsell is an offensive liability on the road. Plus we're finally getting unlucky with opponent three point shooting.
Rebounding is very, very clearly our biggest issue. Not even close with anything else.
Wear'd ewe goe two dental skool, hey?
Quote from: BLM on February 12, 2022, 04:42:37 PM
Rebounding is very, very clearly our biggest issue. Not even close with anything else.
Season wide, sure.
At the moment, no.
Granted. We rebound a little worse than an average shaka smart team. So i doubt we'll ever be happy with a 70% defensive rebounding rate.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 12, 2022, 04:47:09 PM
Season wide, sure.
At the moment, no.
Granted. We rebound a little worse than an average shaka smart team. So i doubt we'll ever be happy with a 70% defensive rebounding rate.
In last four games, including this one, Kur/Oso have a total of 11 rebounds. So, at the moment, yes.
Lose this game and its 3 out of last 4 and rebounding has been major reason.
Quote from: nyg on February 12, 2022, 04:53:36 PM
In last four games, including this one, Kur/Oso have a total of 11 rebounds. So, at the moment, yes.
Lose this game and its 3 out of last 4 and rebounding has been major reason.
Yes because only centers can rebound.
Providence game, i would argue our poor three point shooting and offensive rebounding was worse than our defensive rebounding.
Villanova game, we won, played our second best game of the year, rebounded well.
Uconn game, the problem was defensive boards, but that's against the second best offensive rebounding team in the country.
Butler game, the offensive is worse than our rebounding so far.
The concerning thing for me is seeing the opposing shot go up, and JLew doesn't even consider boxing out Nze. Nze crashes the board untouched. Same thing can be said for DM, GE and OMax at times throughout the season. For such a strong emphasis on defense, this surprises it now even more than when I saw it in December.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 12, 2022, 04:25:15 PM
In our 5 worst defensive rebounding games we are 4-1.... but please lets just continue talking about rebounding when it is not even a top 5 problem right now.
This is the most absurd thing Ive read on here today.
Quote from: jfp61 on February 12, 2022, 04:25:15 PM
In our 5 worst defensive rebounding games we are 4-1.... but please lets just continue talking about rebounding when it is not even a top 5 problem right now.
I understand your point, but overcoming our worst defensive rebounding games doesn't mean that defensive rebounding isn't a problem.
Here are the OR% of our opponents in our losses:
St. B: .212
@Wis: .219
UCLA: .383
@XAV: .283
UCONN: .207
CREI: .333
@PROV: .368
@UCONN: .452
@BUT: .314
On the season, we are averaging .317 OR% allowed. So in 4 of our losses, we were above our season average and one of them we were right at our season average. And you'll notice that the last 4 losses were all at our average or higher, so it may be a growing problem. That may not be significant, except our average ranks 309th in the country and 10th worst amongst high majors. The 9 below us are: Nebraska, Oklahoma St, Florida, Arizona St, St. John's, Oregon State, Texas A&M (hi Buzz), West Virginia, and Washington. We are the only ones in that group solidly in the tournament and Florida is the only one with any real chance.
Now I don't think we need to be great at offensive rebounding or even good at it to be a solid team. Shaka's teams have NEVER been good on the defensive glass at any of his stops. But we do have to be better than we have been this season. OR% is the third most important of the 4 factors. We do really well in the top 2 factors (eFG% and TO%) which covers for the rebounding on most nights. but we've got to improve at least a little bit on the boards if we want to be a real contender.
Rebounds no matta, aina?