I'm new to the site, but did graduate from Marquette back in 2003. I've been a donator for years, but in all honesty have not kept up with the University news in some time. I have noticed a lot of dislike for Lovell. What's that all about? Does it stem from a certain event/situation, or is there a series of problems? Thanks for the info!
Not a Jesuit. Basketball sucked when at UWM. Not a dynamic fundraiser.
I've met him twice/ as an Alum that is somewhat involved at the school:
Fundraising and enrollment is lagging
And they have laid off employees
He has not connected with the
" average " Alum / Fan
I don't think he understands hoops or the important part it plays at MU
Not a Jesuit and is moving mu in a
" secular " direction
Etc
Haven't they secured a few absolutely massive donations?
Law school was like $60million
Quote from: marqfan22 on March 13, 2021, 02:51:25 PM
Haven't they secured a few absolutely massive donations?
Law school was like $60million
Also $30 million for the Nursing School.
Not " massive "
The New law school opened 10 years ago, and the funding was raised before
Lovell got there. They did just have
one donor pony up $$ for nursing school
Let's put it this way, Fr Wild was a better Prez and better for hoops
The not a Jesuit thing shouldn't be an issue. Many Catholic universities no longer have priests or nuns as residents any longer. Marquette was actually late in the game in that regard.
To be honest he wasn't all that great at UWM. His advantage was that he knew Milwaukee but that hasn't proven to be much of an advantage.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 04:26:17 PM
To be honest he wasn't all that great at UWM. His advantage was that he knew Milwaukee but that hasn't proven to be much of an advantage.
I haven't liked him since I noticed he wears bangs.
I don't know that much about him other than that he's big into expanding/upgrading MU from a real estate perspective. Hope he understands the importance of hoops.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 04:26:17 PM
To be honest he wasn't all that great at UWM. His advantage was that he knew Milwaukee but that hasn't proven to be much of an advantage.
One of his moves was bringing basketball back to the Klotsche Center from the Arena for "cost savings". He screwed up the MU Sports Performance deal with the Bucks by jumping the gun with Aurora, who then later backed out of that commitment when it was downsized. Not a deal maker. But he likes to build.
That said, he has had his share of successes as noted. The university is in a strategic transition and not everyone is on board, including the faculty and many alums.
Yeah I shouldn't have implied he's been terrible at Marquette by any means. He's done some good things and has some challenges. And UWM is a really tough place to be good. They really want to break away and upgrade their profile, but they really don't have the resources to do that. In reality they are closer to UW-Whitewater than they are to UW-Madison.
Right...
Lovell is not terrible. Just MEH ...
Average. Many alums I talk to are not thrilled
Sound familiar?
Quote from: Marq2003 on March 13, 2021, 10:08:17 AM
I have noticed a lot of dislike for Lovell. What's that all about? Does it stem from a certain event/situation, or is there a series of problems? Thanks for the info!
I share your interest and perhaps confusion on Lovell dislike. I've only bumped in to him a minute here and there, but he seems like a solid, personable guy. The past 8 years, MU has built a bunch of buildings, typically paid for by donations, so I don't see how he can be faulted there.
That being said .. 8 years ago MU was probably in a better spot, new buildings notwithstanding. MU is shrinking, enrollment is down, staffing is down via layoffs. The McAdams issue wasn't great. MU's largest public relations vehicle, men's basketball, is a dumpster fire leaving alums apathetic.
Not a great 8 year stretch.
Interesting. He was considered a home run hire by people I knew who worked in college administration, I was congratulated at the time, and now after eight years it seems that people perceive at least that the university is in a worse place (I don't have enough knowledge for an opinion either way, tbh)
Wojo was pretty much seen as a great hire as well, a good fit with the Duke pedigree, and now the program is in a worse place as well.
Quote from: Mu8891 on March 13, 2021, 05:16:01 PM
Many alums I talk to are not thrilled
As far as I've seen, the distaste is most from Alums, but current students I think generally like Lovell. Though the faculty cuts issue may have changed that
Quote from: Mu8891 on March 13, 2021, 02:10:01 PM
I've met him twice/ as an Alum that is somewhat involved at the school:
Fundraising and enrollment is lagging
And they have laid off employees
He has not connected with the
" average " Alum / Fan
I don't think he understands hoops or the important part it plays at MU
Not a Jesuit and is moving mu in a
" secular " direction
Etc
I think the moving of MU in a secular direction is of concern for Catholics and nonCatholics alike. Some alums wonder if on-campus construction projects has been money misspent. Not all projects, but some. Or, opportunities missed. Seemingly apathetic toward our marquee sport, etc etc.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 13, 2021, 08:08:37 PM
I think the moving of MU in a secular direction is of concern for Catholics and nonCatholics alike. Some alums wonder if on-campus construction projects has been money misspent. Not all projects, but some. Or, opportunities missed. Seemingly apathetic toward our marquee sport, etc etc.
How is Marquette moving in a secular direction?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 04:26:17 PM
To be honest he wasn't all that great at UWM. His advantage was that he knew Milwaukee but that hasn't proven to be much of an advantage.
This is correct.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 13, 2021, 04:52:01 PM
I haven't liked him since I noticed he wears bangs.
As is this.
He's been perfectly average. He is poor public speaker, which is a problem for a president of a university. He does not have a dynamic personality, which is fine. He is reactive. He rarely leads or has real direction for the university. He's been invisible during the downsizing discussion on campus, letting the provost and COO handle it all.
There are larger issues regarding financial planning, the student population and academic standards, and I imagine that sits at his doorstep as well, but it's hard to say on some of these bigbig issues who's to blame (are there broader trends at play?).
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 13, 2021, 08:08:37 PM
I think the moving of MU in a secular direction is of concern for Catholics and nonCatholics alike.
Why would moving in a secular direction be of concern to non catholics? It's becoming more and more a secular world. If MU doesn't adapt....
Quote from: naginiF on March 13, 2021, 08:19:09 PM
Why would moving in a secular direction be of concern to non catholics? It's becoming more and more a secular world. If MU doesn't adapt....
Marquette has been moving in a more secular direction for years. It's not a bad thing. Always remember the mission while broadening your reach.
Quote from: naginiF on March 13, 2021, 08:19:09 PM
Why would moving in a secular direction be of concern to non catholics? It's becoming more and more a secular world. If MU doesn't adapt....
It's a Catholic school. If anyone doesn't like what that means (or should mean) and everything that comes with it, there are thousands of other options freely available to them.
Quote from: panda on March 13, 2021, 08:22:26 PM
Marquette has been moving in a more secular direction for years. It's not a bad thing. Always remember the mission while broadening your reach.
QuoteOUR MISSION
Marquette University is a Catholic, Jesuit university dedicated to serving God by serving our students and contributing to the advancement of knowledge. Our mission, therefore, is the search for truth, the discovery and sharing of knowledge, the fostering of personal and professional excellence, the promotion of a life of faith, and the development of leadership expressed in service to others. All this we pursue for the greater glory of God and the common benefit of the human community.
Quote from: panda on March 13, 2021, 08:22:26 PM
Marquette has been moving in a more secular direction for years. It's not a bad thing. Always remember the mission while broadening your reach.
I am a non Catholic who attended Marquette 30 years ago. I don't think it is significantly different.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 08:46:16 PM
I am a non Catholic who attended Marquette 30 years ago. I don't think it is significantly different.
Appreciate the input. I graduated in the late 2000's and my comment comes from a good friend who is a priest in the Milwaukee area. Certainly not meant to be interpreted negatively, but just my two cents.
Quote from: panda on March 13, 2021, 08:49:08 PM
Appreciate the input. I graduated in the late 2000's and my comment comes from a good friend who is a priest in the Milwaukee area. Certainly not meant to be interpreted negatively, but just my two cents.
I graduated 50 years ago and it is significantly different. All Catholic students were required to take 12 credits in Catholic theology. The only required theology course back then was Christian marriage. The emphasis on Catholic teaching has been significantly reduced. The Church itself is to blame in this regard as the sexual abuse scandal by priests on young boys and to some extent girls has compromised its moral authority.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 13, 2021, 07:11:54 PM
As far as I've seen, the distaste is most from Alums, but current students I think generally like Lovell. Though the faculty cuts issue may have changed that
The job of a University President is not to appeal to current students. It is first and foremost to be a public face to alumni to raise funds and grow the endowment. From what I've heard, Lovell has failed there.
The other main task (and they really are coupled), is to drive a University strategic plan for the future, to direct and sell that plan to the community, and alumni donors. From what I've heard, Lovell has had mixed success there, more success on the building side, but not good at really selling his vision to the public.
Quote from: panda on March 13, 2021, 08:22:26 PM
Marquette has been moving in a more secular direction for years. It's not a bad thing. Always remember the mission while broadening your reach.
Then drop the Catholic affiliation and be honest about it just like all the Ivy League Schools.
https://christianheritagefellowship.com/the-christian-founding-of-harvard/#:~:text=Only%20eighteen%20years%20after%20the%20Pilgrims%20landed%20in,meeting%20the%20academic%20needs%20of%20the%20New%20World.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2021, 08:25:31 PM
It's a Catholic school. If anyone doesn't like what that means (or should mean) and everything that comes with it, there are thousands of other options freely available to them.
The post I quoted specifically said moving in a secular direction should be a concern to non Catholics. If Catholic institution of higher learning becomes more secular I can't imagine it would be anything but the opposite of a concern for non catholics who want that higher education.
Quote from: panda on March 13, 2021, 08:22:26 PM
Marquette has been moving in a more secular direction for years. It's not a bad thing. Always remember the mission while broadening your reach.
I think this is spot on and I think that Marquette understands that many like minded individuals share the same end goal of service/giving back/searching for truth/common benefit without having the same commitments to Catholicism and faith.
I've run into Lovell while jogging a few years ago and tried to talk MU basketball and it was obvious he wasn't even paying attention to the games. Just isn't a bball fan, I guess.
Quote from: NolongerWarriors on March 13, 2021, 09:36:27 PM
I've run into Lovell while jogging a few years ago and tried to talk MU basketball and it was obvious he wasn't even paying attention to the games. Just isn't a bball fan, I guess.
That's sad. I've been fortunate enough to spend a fair amount of time with Father Wild. He lives and breathes Marquette and Marquette basketball. He truly understood what men's basketball means to the university.
Always great to see him at mass wearing his final four jacket. He is a true fan with an incredible vision for the school.
Quote from: NolongerWarriors on March 13, 2021, 09:36:27 PM
I've run into Lovell while jogging a few years ago and tried to talk MU basketball and it was obvious he wasn't even paying attention to the games. Just isn't a bball fan, I guess.
Maybe he was just trying to jog and didn't want to talk to you lol
Quote from: Steve Buscemi on March 13, 2021, 09:47:58 PM
Maybe he was just trying to jog and didn't want to talk to you lol
Or he is too busy chatting up donors during the games to pay attention.
Quote from: NolongerWarriors on March 13, 2021, 09:36:27 PM
I've run into Lovell while jogging a few years ago and tried to talk MU basketball and it was obvious he wasn't even paying attention to the games. Just isn't a bball fan, I guess.
Knowing the starting center for the basketball team should be 154th on Lovell's priority list. I know this is a basketball board, but if you think otherwise you probably need a primer on the operations of a university.
Quote from: Royale on March 13, 2021, 11:12:02 PM
Knowing the starting center for the basketball team should be 154th on Lovell's priority list. I know this is a basketball board, but if you think otherwise you probably need a primer on the operations of a university.
Men's basketball is part of the lifeblood of the university. As the program fades into irrelevance, so too does the university in some ways. So while I'd normally agree with what you just said, it's just not true at Marquette, in particular.
Quote from: Royale on March 13, 2021, 11:12:02 PM
Knowing the starting center for the basketball team should be 154th on Lovell's priority list. I know this is a basketball board, but if you think otherwise you probably need a primer on the operations of a university.
So you're saying the President of Marquette University isn't smart enough to know 154 things about the University he is president of?
Quote from: Farley36 on March 13, 2021, 11:36:56 PM
So you're saying the President of Marquette University isn't smart enough to know 154 things about the University he is president of?
Yes, that was the takeaway, the specific number and order of things the president should know.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 13, 2021, 11:15:16 PM
Men's basketball is part of the lifeblood of the university. As the program fades into irrelevance, so too does the university in some ways. So while I'd normally agree with what you just said, it's just not true at Marquette, in particular.
Athletics are part of the puzzle, and I know what drives donations and applications, but, first and foremost, universities are about education not sports. Again, this is a basketball board. I don't expect that to be a popular opinion, but the basketball team should take a backseat to the Klinger College of Arts and Sciences.
If Marquette is going to stick around for another century-plus, it'll be as an educational institution not a semi-pro sports organization.
Quote from: Royale on March 13, 2021, 11:42:21 PM
Yes, that was the takeaway, the specific number and order of things the president should know.
You're obviously too dense to get the point which is the President of a major University should be smart enough to know all the really important stuff and know about the basketball team which is super important to a large percent if the school's alumni base. Your excuse to let him off the hook is a stupid one.
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 12:16:41 AM
You're obviously too dense to get the point which is the President of a major University should be smart enough to know all the really important stuff and know about the basketball team which is super important to a large percent if the school's alumni base. Your excuse to let him off the hook is a stupid one.
LOL, and you are damning him because some poster tried to talk him up while jogging. This place is hilarious.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 13, 2021, 09:21:29 PM
I graduated 50 years ago and it is significantly different. All Catholic students were required to take 12 credits in Catholic theology. The only required theology course back then was Christian marriage. The emphasis on Catholic teaching has been significantly reduced. The Church itself is to blame in this regard as the sexual abuse scandal by priests on young boys and to some extent girls has compromised its moral authority.
Taking courses on Catholic theology isn't the only way a school can be defined as Catholic. In fact I would argue is a poor way to define it
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 06:27:29 AM
Taking courses on Catholic theology isn't the only way a school can be defined as Catholic. In fact I would argue is a poor way to define it
One of the few reasons I didn't choose Marquette for undergrad is because of required catholic teachings.
The problem for some is the broad spectrum of Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching, and particularly Jesuit philosophy on Catholic teaching on multiple issues regarding social justice, racism, the environment, capitalism, the death penalty, are quite liberal. If any Catholic university focuses more on those, they are accused of drifting from Catholic teaching.
Neither current American political party matches up with Catholicism across the board.
Quote from: #UnleashDiener on March 14, 2021, 06:49:39 AM
One of the few reasons I didn't choose Marquette for undergrad is because of required catholic teachings.
When I was in school, you had to take three THEO classes. One was the required THEO 001, taught by a Lutheran, and the other two I took were comparative courses - Islam (taught by a Jesuit) and Eastern Christianity (taught by an Orthodox monk)
But again it isn't just about the classes you take. It's about how the Catholic, Jesuit mission is interwoven thoughout the University and reflects itself in multiple ways. I would argue in an increasingly secular world, and in one where more MU students don't identify themselves as Catholic, I think the mission is even more important.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 13, 2021, 08:14:28 PM
How is Marquette moving in a secular direction?
Lovell's, hence MU's support of the BLM organization is one example. The organization BLM is pro-choice. Another has to do with LGBTQ.
Quote from: naginiF on March 13, 2021, 08:19:09 PM
Why would moving in a secular direction be of concern to non catholics? It's becoming more and more a secular world. If MU doesn't adapt....
i come from a family of MU grads. We are not Catholic. I'm a Christian. All Christians, regardless of denomination should be concerned with secularism. And, just because the world is moving secular does not mean we give-in on our convictions. However, with Lovell MU appears to be doing so.
Quote from: Steve Buscemi on March 13, 2021, 09:47:58 PM
Maybe he was just trying to jog and didn't want to talk to you lol
When I'm running don't expect more than a "Hello" out of me or stopping unless it's a stoplight or traffic.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 14, 2021, 07:45:41 AM
i come from a family of MU grads. We are not Catholic. I'm a Christian. All Christians, regardless of denomination should be concerned with secularism. And, just because the world is moving secular does not mean we give-in on our convictions. However, with Lovell MU appears to be doing so.
I don't understand the concern with secularism from Christians. As an atheist (I credit Marquette with making my path to atheism shorter than it otherwise would've been) I understand that LGTBQ rights/equalities and pro choice positions are not what the church preaches. Are there other areas of secularism that are a concern?
There is only one non religious private school in our neighborhood so our social circle is made up of people who choose to send their kids to religious schools and, granted it's not a huge sample size but I can't imagine its too far from the norm, I can tell you with certainty a) very few see abortion as a black and white issue, b) most support LGTBQ rights to the same extent I do (which is total). The catholics struggle with trans issues but not as much as 3 - 5 years ago, and c) there are a surprising number of atheists, and people of faith that will encourage their kids to find their own beliefs, that send their kids to Christian/Catholic schools.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 14, 2021, 07:39:07 AM
Lovell's, hence MU's support of the BLM organization is one example. The organization BLM is pro-choice. Another has to do with LGBTQ.
For the one millionth time, they support the BLM *movement* not BLM, LLC. Two different things.
And Marquette supported LGBTQ organizations when I was in school. That hasn't changed.
I appreciate all the insight in this post. It's interesting the divide, even evident on this board. Either way, here's to hoping like hell we can get the basketball program respectful again!
I bumped into Father Wild a few times when I was on campus and he was always down to talk hoops.
If Lovell doesn't understand or care about how big basketball is for MU that is a major problem.
Quote from: swoopem on March 14, 2021, 12:08:10 PM
I bumped into Father Wild a few times when I was on campus and he was always down to talk hoops.
If Lovell doesn't understand or care about how big basketball is for MU that is a major problem.
There is a difference between actively watching and following the team, and understanding and caring about how big basketball is for MU and its alumni.
Quote from: swoopem on March 14, 2021, 12:08:10 PM
I bumped into Father Wild a few times when I was on campus and he was always down to talk hoops.
If Lovell doesn't understand or care about how big basketball is for MU that is a major problem.
FWIW, I didn't go to Marquette but my undergrad, at the time, had a very strong mid major basketball program and non-P5 football team that actually finished top 10 my freshman year. The President at the time was a stereotypical elitist academic type who was standoffish and routinely acted like any student interaction was a droll inconvenience. Never saw him at games or sporting events, but everything with the athletic department and funding was on point and thriving.
A year or two later, he retired and a new President arrived. Super outgoing, vocal sports fans. Loved by students, always had time to chat. He brought on a new AD and oversaw multiple coaching searches for football and BB. Results were disastrous, both teams have floundered for years and while a new President has since arrived, neither team has really rebounded. Also refreshes are very much needed for both the football stadium and basketball arena and he wasn't able to push anything forward, but did get a new baseball field ::)
Now not saying this is the case with Lovell given the Wojo stuff, and I've heard enough to suggest he's struggling all over, but just a direct empirical Devils advocate example to show a reticence to chat Marquette hoops or even lack of active and enthused fanship of the team doesn't necessarily mean he's ill equipped to do what's best for the program.
1. Lovell is/was at all home and mostly every away game before this year. Not sure about this season. He is actively involved and loves #mubb.
2. Lovell funds the #mubb program in his job and MU is without want--they get whatever they need with Lovell's blessing. The construction of the Athletics facility across the street from the Al (I call it the Joe True Center) was a big priority just to assist #mubb by creating more space in the Al for Men's hoops.
3. Lovell has not only made Joan of Arc Chapel the focus of campus but he has added, with the help of donors, the Shrine to Mary. Masses are available all weekend for students as well as the weekly campus mass at Joan of Arc and the 6pm Sunday Mass at Gesu--formerly the last chance Mass for Milwaukeeans, now a Campus Ministry Mass.
4. When Lovell took the job, one of his selling points was his Catholicity.
I have no problem criticizing Lovell for some of his decisions but the criticism needs to be tempered by the facts. Perhaps the curriculum is "less Catholic" but Lovell has pushed the Catholic and Jesuit identity of the University and the need to live up to AMDG and "persons for others" espoused by the Jesuits. I, too, have criticisms but some of those espoused in this string are not fair criticisms.
Quote from: Gato78 on March 14, 2021, 12:44:14 PM
1. Lovell is/was at all home and mostly every away game before this year. Not sure about this season. He is actively involved and loves #mubb.
2. Lovell funds the #mubb program in his job and MU is without want--they get whatever they need with Lovell's blessing. The construction of the Athletics facility across the street from the Al (I call it the Joe True Center) was a big priority just to assist #mubb by creating more space in the Al for Men's hoops.
3. Lovell has not only made Joan of Arc Chapel the focus of campus but he has added, with the help of donors, the Shrine to Mary. Masses are available all weekend for students as well as the weekly campus mass at Joan of Arc and the 6pm Sunday Mass at Gesu--formerly the last chance Mass for Milwaukeeans, now a Campus Ministry Mass.
4. When Lovell took the job, one of his selling points was his Catholicity.
I have no problem criticizing Lovell for some of his decisions but the criticism needs to be tempered by the facts. Perhaps the curriculum is "less Catholic" but Lovell has pushed the Catholic and Jesuit identity of the University and the need to live up to AMDG and "persons for others" espoused by the Jesuits. I, too, have criticisms but some of those espoused in this string are not fair criticisms.
Giving a very coach friendly extension to Wojo after his first sign of success is turning into a black eye on his tenure.
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 12:46:36 PM
Giving a very coach friendly extension to Wojo after his first sign of success is turning into a black eye on his tenure.
That is a fair criticism, provided you know how the contract was extended.
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 12:46:36 PM
Giving a very coach friendly extension to Wojo after his first sign of success is turning into a black eye on his tenure.
Dude seriously...
Quote from: Gato78 on March 14, 2021, 12:44:14 PM
1. Lovell is/was at all home and mostly every away game before this year. Not sure about this season. He is actively involved and loves #mubb.
2. Lovell funds the #mubb program in his job and MU is without want--they get whatever they need with Lovell's blessing. The construction of the Athletics facility across the street from the Al (I call it the Joe True Center) was a big priority just to assist #mubb by creating more space in the Al for Men's hoops.
3. Lovell has not only made Joan of Arc Chapel the focus of campus but he has added, with the help of donors, the Shrine to Mary. Masses are available all weekend for students as well as the weekly campus mass at Joan of Arc and the 6pm Sunday Mass at Gesu--formerly the last chance Mass for Milwaukeeans, now a Campus Ministry Mass.
4. When Lovell took the job, one of his selling points was his Catholicity.
I have no problem criticizing Lovell for some of his decisions but the criticism needs to be tempered by the facts. Perhaps the curriculum is "less Catholic" but Lovell has pushed the Catholic and Jesuit identity of the University and the need to live up to AMDG and "persons for others" espoused by the Jesuits. I, too, have criticisms but some of those espoused in this string are not fair criticisms.
Excellent points.
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 12:46:36 PM
Giving a very coach friendly extension to Wojo after his first sign of success is turning into a black eye on his tenure.
You have to give coaches extensions for recruiting purposes.
This isn't a Marquette only issue.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 12:55:31 PM
Dude seriously...
Yes.
He had yet to earn a contract extension like the one he received. 4-14, 8-10, 10-8 and 9-9 records previous to his 12-6. He wasn't being seriously courted by other programs. Why hand over the castle at that point? Where was he going to go?
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 14, 2021, 12:56:26 PM
You have to give coaches extensions for recruiting purposes.
This isn't a Marquette only issue.
I agree. They also don't have to involve massive buyouts which in normal times would have been a tough pill to swallow if his one excellent season turned out to be a flash in the pan.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 14, 2021, 12:56:26 PM
You have to give coaches extensions for recruiting purposes.
This isn't a Marquette only issue.
Sew den, eye assume you ar inn favor if xtendin' again now, hey?
Just shaking my head that Scoop has come to the conclusion that Lovell isn't interested in basketball success because he didn't talk someone up while jogging.
🙄🙄🙄
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 01:00:17 PM
I agree. They also don't have to involve massive buyouts which in normal times would have been a tough pill to swallow if his one excellent season turned out to be a flash in the pan.
Yep, an extension would certainly have to include a buyout revision.
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 12:59:09 PM
Yes.
He had yet to earn a contract extension like the one he received. 4-14, 8-10, 10-8 and 9-9 records previous to his 12-6. He wasn't being seriously courted by other programs. Why hand over the castle at that point? Where was he going to go?
What terms were changed, how long is the extension? What are the roll over provisions?
Quote from: Nukem2 on March 14, 2021, 01:13:52 PM
Yep, an extension would certainly have to include a buyout revision.
Since we're a private school and we don't have access to the contract how do we know it doesn't?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 14, 2021, 01:16:20 PM
Since we're a private school and we don't have access to the contract how do we know it doesn't?
I said "revision" not clause. Seriously doubt there has been a buyout revision to his contract, though you are right in that we don't know if such a revision was agreed to at some point though that's unlikely?
From my admittedly distant perspective I don't see Lovell as the problem HOWEVER I also don't think he understands the role of Men's Basketball as part of the external persona of the university and how that relates to alumni satisfaction, fundraising, admissions, enrollment, etc.
Good sports = good publicity. There is no other way to get so many eyeballs on your university logo.
Quote from: Gato78 on March 14, 2021, 01:14:29 PM
What terms were changed, how long is the extension? What are the roll over provisions?
Following the '19 season, he received two extra years on his contract. An extension for recruiting purposes. It is widely purported that the extension also included a buy out which has now bound the school to a coach who has underachieved significantly during his tenure here.
If he receives an extension following this season for recruiting purposes, like has happened before, there is no requirement to up his buyout. Why would they have done that when he wasn't a hot coaching commodity and coming off of a brutal end to a season?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 06:09:09 AM
LOL, and you are damning him because some poster tried to talk him up while jogging. This place is hilarious.
It's embarrassing that you graduated from Marquette. I don't care if Lovell discussed hoops with some random alum or not but the argument that as President he has too many other priorities to have knowledge of the basketball team is ridiculous.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 01:12:54 PM
Just shaking my head that Scoop has come to the conclusion that Lovell isn't interested in basketball success because he didn't talk someone up while jogging.
🙄🙄🙄
Maybe Scoop had come to that conclusion because he seems content to let the program be a bottom Big East team.
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 01:27:54 PM
Following the '19 season, he received two extra years on his contract. An extension for recruiting purposes. It is widely purported that the extension also included a buy out which has now bound the school to a coach who has underachieved significantly during his tenure here.
If he receives an extension following this season for recruiting purposes, like has happened before, there is no requirement to up his buyout. Why would they have done that when he wasn't a hot coaching commodity and coming off of a brutal end to a season?
The extension was timed with this generous gift.
https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-receives-2.5-million-gift-to-support-innovation-alley-and-basketball.php
Quote from: panda on March 14, 2021, 01:27:54 PM
Following the '19 season, he received two extra years on his contract. An extension for recruiting purposes. It is widely purported that the extension also included a buy out which has now bound the school to a coach who has underachieved significantly during his tenure here.
If he receives an extension following this season for recruiting purposes, like has happened before, there is no requirement to up his buyout. Why would they have done that when he wasn't a hot coaching commodity and coming off of a brutal end to a season?
Yep if the buyout he was given during his last extension is now prohibiting us from moving on from him, as has been speculated, that's absolutely Lovell's mistake. That's not even a controversial take.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 14, 2021, 01:40:18 PM
The extension was timed with this generous gift.
https://www.marquette.edu/news-center/2019/marquette-receives-2.5-million-gift-to-support-innovation-alley-and-basketball.php
" For 18 straight years, the Marquette men's basketball team finished among the top-25 teams in the nation in regular season average attendance thanks to the dedication and support of its tremendous fan base. The Swobodas have donated $1.5 million of the gift to support the program's continued growth."
Freezing cold takes?
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 14, 2021, 07:39:07 AM
Lovell's, hence MU's support of the BLM organization is one example. The organization BLM is pro-choice. Another has to do with LGBTQ.
They support the movement not the organization. Which is the Jesuit thing to do.
The Pope himself is moving the church in a more LGBTQ friendly direction. As the Jesuits have always historically been ahead of Rome on social justice issues, I think Marquette is exactly where a Jesuit university should be. If anything, they are taking too conservative of an approach for a Jesuit school.
My experience at Marquette was that the commitment to service and being men/women for others has never been higher. The curricula does require less THEO courses and whether or not that is a good thing is a good topic for discussion.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 14, 2021, 01:42:37 PM
Yep if the buyout he was given during his last extension is now prohibiting us from moving on from him, as has been speculated, that's absolutely Lovell's mistake. That's not even a controversial take.
The buyout was already part of the contract and it was one in line with the market. Marquette could afford it in a normal year. It was unforseeable that a Global Pandemic would tank MU's finances and lead to a faculty revolt. Despite Jim Christian getting canned early at BC, movement on the coaching carousel has been slow so far. I think a lot of coaches are going to get saved by COVID. It's hardly an MU only issue.
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 01:34:43 PM
It's embarrassing that you graduated from Marquette. I don't care if Lovell discussed hoops with some random alum or not but the argument that as President he has too many other priorities to have knowledge of the basketball team is ridiculous.
I was under the impression that Marquette alumni possessed simple reading skills. Apparently you do not since I never said that.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 14, 2021, 01:50:52 PM
The buyout was already part of the contract and it was one in line with the market. Marquette could afford it in a normal year. It was unforseeable that a Global Pandemic would tank MU's finances and lead to a faculty revolt. Despite Jim Christian getting canned early at BC, movement on the coaching carousel has been slow so far. I think a lot of coaches are going to get saved by COVID. It's hardly an MU only issue.
Considering the issues surrounding the program at the time of the extension, not adjusting the buyout is questionable at best and lacked foresight at worst. Either way it has proven to have been a mistake.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 14, 2021, 01:55:50 PM
Considering the issues surrounding the program at the time of the extension, not adjusting the buyout is questionable at best and lacked foresight at worst. Either way it has proven to have been a mistake.
How do you know this?
Quote from: Gato78 on March 14, 2021, 02:00:28 PM
How do you know this?
I don't. That's why I qualified with "if" and "has been speculated". I'm hoping it's not the case and Wojo is rightfully fired.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 14, 2021, 01:50:52 PM
The buyout was already part of the contract and it was one in line with the market. Marquette could afford it in a normal year. It was unforseeable that a Global Pandemic would tank MU's finances and lead to a faculty revolt. Despite Jim Christian getting canned early at BC, movement on the coaching carousel has been slow so far. I think a lot of coaches are going to get saved by COVID. It's hardly an MU only issue.
Clearly you dwere not aware that Dr. Lovell's job description includes the requirement to be able to predict the future with 100% accuracy.
Whenever there are conversations like this, I'm genuinely interested in what percentage of Marquette alums are deeply interested in the basketball program. I am. My wife isn't (although she humors me). I don't doubt that success of the basketball program is good for the university, but I do doubt that an overwhelming majority of alums -- if even a majority -- consider the state of the basketball program as one of Lovell's top priorities. I'm not necessarily saying that they would be right, but I do think that a lot of times we who participate on a MU Basketball message board make the mistake of thinking that we're representative of MU alums as a whole. I'd be curious what percentage of MU alums never attended a single basketball game while they were at MU. I'd be curious what percentage of MU alums haven't watched a single basketball game in the past 10 years.
That'd be absolutely nuts to be at MU for 4 years and never attend a basketball game. What would you do on Saturday's? Do you even have friends? I'm sure people have done it but it's wild to me. Not even one game?
Quote from: swoopem on March 14, 2021, 02:49:17 PM
That'd be absolutely nuts to be at MU for 4 years and never attend a basketball game. What would you do on Saturday's? Do you even have friends? I'm sure people have done it but it's wild to me. Not even one game?
I agree. I'd love to know that number, and I suspect it would be much higher than most of us would think. A lot of people just really aren't into sports. I don't get it.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 14, 2021, 02:53:40 PM
I agree. I'd love to know that number, and I suspect it would be much higher than most of us would think. A lot of people just really aren't into sports. I don't get it.
I was a senior during the final four run in 03. I remember the morning of the Kansas game I ran into a guy in a couple of my classes at campus foods. I tried to make some small talk and asked if he was getting ready for the game and he responded with something like "no I'm just getting some lunch, I dont get into sports at all" and held up some canned tomatoes. I never talked to him again.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 14, 2021, 02:44:10 PM
Whenever there are conversations like this, I'm genuinely interested in what percentage of Marquette alums are deeply interested in the basketball program. I am. My wife isn't (although she humors me). I don't doubt that success of the basketball program is good for the university, but I do doubt that an overwhelming majority of alums -- if even a majority -- consider the state of the basketball program as one of Lovell's top priorities. I'm not necessarily saying that they would be right, but I do think that a lot of times we who participate on a MU Basketball message board make the mistake of thinking that we're representative of MU alums as a whole. I'd be curious what percentage of MU alums never attended a single basketball game while they were at MU. I'd be curious what percentage of MU alums haven't watched a single basketball game in the past 10 years.
I think the rise in funding and applications/admissions post-2003 FF tell the story about what basketball success can mean for a university. It's bore out at other schools across the country.
Which then spreads out into things those "non sports fans" care about.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 14, 2021, 02:44:10 PM
Whenever there are conversations like this, I'm genuinely interested in what percentage of Marquette alums are deeply interested in the basketball program. I am. My wife isn't (although she humors me). I don't doubt that success of the basketball program is good for the university, but I do doubt that an overwhelming majority of alums -- if even a majority -- consider the state of the basketball program as one of Lovell's top priorities. I'm not necessarily saying that they would be right, but I do think that a lot of times we who participate on a MU Basketball message board make the mistake of thinking that we're representative of MU alums as a whole. I'd be curious what percentage of MU alums never attended a single basketball game while they were at MU. I'd be curious what percentage of MU alums haven't watched a single basketball game in the past 10 years.
I think it's pretty low to be honest. Maybe you get 40% that would watch a March Madness game. I know people that couldn't name a player on the team, but get fired up for National Marquette Day and March Madness.
For students, it's the main social event on campus, but they probably don't keep up with it much after leaving.
For the BC, I think the student section was 4,000 seats. So about 50% undergrad. Maybe half of that would regularly show up. I'm guessing that's the group that probably still watches games.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 07:19:08 AM
When I was in school, you had to take three THEO classes. One was the required THEO 001, taught by a Lutheran, and the other two I took were comparative courses - Islam (taught by a Jesuit) and Eastern Christianity (taught by an Orthodox monk)
But again it isn't just about the classes you take. It's about how the Catholic, Jesuit mission is interwoven thoughout the University and reflects itself in multiple ways. I would argue in an increasingly secular world, and in one where more MU students don't identify themselves as Catholic, I think the mission is even more important.
It would seem to me that the Jesuit mission today his profoundly different than the Jesuit mission of 50 years ago. All my theo classes were taught by Jesuits: 2 covered the old and new testament, 3 covered the sacraments and 1 covered evangelization. How can the University's mission be rooted in Catholic tradition when it is taught by Lutherans and Islam taught by a Jesuit. It seem its mission is more rooted in ecumenism rather than teaching Catholicism.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2021, 03:49:27 PM
It would seem to me that the Jesuit mission today his profoundly different than the Jesuit mission of 50 years ago. All my theo classes were taught by Jesuits: 2 covered the old and new testament, 3 covered the sacraments and 1 covered evangelization. How can the University's mission be rooted in Catholic tradition when it is taught by Lutherans and Islam taught by a Jesuit. It seem its mission is more rooted in ecumenism rather than teaching Catholicism.
Outside of ND, can a Catholic university, especially one like MU, be a national university and exclusively Catholic?
It sounds like you want us to be the University of Dallas or Ava Maria.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 14, 2021, 01:47:01 PM
They support the movement not the organization. Which is the Jesuit thing to do.
The Pope himself is moving the church in a more LGBTQ friendly direction. As the Jesuits have always historically been ahead of Rome on social justice issues, I think Marquette is exactly where a Jesuit university should be. If anything, they are taking too conservative of an approach for a Jesuit school.
My experience at Marquette was that the commitment to service and being men/women for others has never been higher. The curricula does require less THEO courses and whether or not that is a good thing is a good topic for discussion.
question...and admittedly this has nothing to do about Marquette University, Marquette basketball or Lovell. If the Pope and scripture differ, in what direction do you go? If the church says turn here, but you know a better way is taking the turn a block down, what way do you go? (weak analogy, I know)
Btw, I love that Marquette is committed to service, as you mention. I do want MU alums to be, as the slogan goes, be the difference.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 14, 2021, 04:24:00 PM
question...and admittedly this has nothing to do about Marquette University, Marquette basketball or Lovell. If the Pope and scripture differ, in what direction do you go? If the church says turn here, but you know a better way is taking the turn a block down, what way do you go? (weak analogy, I know)
Btw, I love that Marquette is committed to service, as you mention. I do want MU alums to be, as the slogan goes, be the difference.
I don't think its relevant in this case. The Pope is moving the church in the direction of scripture away from a path not based in scripture.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 14, 2021, 04:24:00 PM
question...and admittedly this has nothing to do about Marquette University, Marquette basketball or Lovell. If the Pope and scripture differ, in what direction do you go? If the church says turn here, but you know a better way is taking the turn a block down, what way do you go? (weak analogy, I know)
Btw, I love that Marquette is committed to service, as you mention. I do want MU alums to be, as the slogan goes, be the difference.
Catholicism has a long history of not being literalist when it comes to scripture. One of the reasons certain branches of protestantism refers to Catholics as papists. Because they prefer their version of a literal interpretation of scripture, even when they disagree.
Maybe a protestant theology course would have helped, ai'na?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 01:54:30 PM
I was under the impression that Marquette alumni possessed simple reading skills. Apparently you do not since I never said that.
You shouldn't talk about reading comprehension here. I wasn't damning Lovell as you stated I was. I was commenting on someone else's post that Lovell shouldn't know the name of MU's starting center because he has 154 other things to do as Pres. That's a stupid argument which implies a university President can't do his job and know about the basketball team. But you jumped in completely clueless and made another in a long line of dumb comments. You might want to work on your basic reading comprehension.
I was at an MU preseason scrimmage where Lovell was helping Wojo recruit Dawson Garcia. He specifically came down to half court at the Al and sat down with Dawson and his family for the second half of the scrimmage. He spoke with them almost the entire time. From what I saw he absolutely gets the importance of the basketball program to the University.
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 04:42:58 PM
You shouldn't talk about reading comprehension here. I wasn't damning Lovell as you stated I was. I was commenting on someone else's post that Lovell shouldn't know the name of MU's starting center because he has 154 other things to do as Pres. That's a stupid argument which implies a university President can't do his job and know about the basketball team. But you jumped in completely clueless and made another in a long line of dumb comments. You might want to work on your basic reading comprehension.
So you quoted my post but commented on another? Lol. Sure.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2021, 03:49:27 PM
It would seem to me that the Jesuit mission today his profoundly different than the Jesuit mission of 50 years ago. All my theo classes were taught by Jesuits: 2 covered the old and new testament, 3 covered the sacraments and 1 covered evangelization. How can the University's mission be rooted in Catholic tradition when it is taught by Lutherans and Islam taught by a Jesuit. It seem its mission is more rooted in ecumenism rather than teaching Catholicism.
I mean this was 30 years ago. That has been my frame of reference the entire time - that little has changed in 30 years.
But you do have an outdated view of a contemporary Jesuit education.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 14, 2021, 04:31:55 PM
I don't think its relevant in this case. The Pope is moving the church in the direction of scripture away from a path not based in scripture.
Yep yep!
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 05:05:44 PM
So you quoted my post but commented on another? Lol. Sure.
Wow you're dumb and making yourself look dumber by the minute. I quoted Royal and then you jumped in and quoted me. You IQ is shrinking by the minute
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on March 14, 2021, 05:03:40 PM
I was at an MU preseason scrimmage where Lovell was helping Wojo recruit Dawson Garcia. He specifically came down to half court at the Al and sat down with Dawson and his family for the second half of the scrimmage. He spoke with them almost the entire time. From what I saw he absolutely gets the importance of the basketball program to the University.
This.
Just because Dr. Lovell can't tell you the average number of minutes that Justin Lewis plays per game or any of the other million points of data some of you guys can spend hours on doesn't mean that he doesn't understand the importance of basketball to MU.
If he understands the importance then he should fire Wojo
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 05:10:56 PM
Wow you're dumb and making yourself look dumber by the minute. I quoted Royal and then you jumped in and quoted me. You IQ is shrinking by the minute
You've had previous identities banned, and complained about our policies. But the problem is you can't post without insults. Last warning.
Quote from: swoopem on March 14, 2021, 05:16:55 PM
If he understands the importance then he should fire Wojo
Winner, winner.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 14, 2021, 05:17:22 PM
You've had previous identities banned, and complained about our policies. But the problem is you can't post without insults. Last warning.
Do you feel like Thanos after collecting all the Infinity Stones?
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 05:24:45 PM
Do you feel like Thanos after collecting all the Infinity Stones?
Try me!
Who?
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 05:10:56 PM
Wow you're dumb and making yourself look dumber by the minute. I quoted Royal and then you jumped in and quoted me. You IQ is shrinking by the minute
Lol. It goes back to this. You're funny!
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=61629.msg1322052#msg1322052
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 05:08:06 PM
I mean this was 30 years ago. That has been my frame of reference the entire time - that little has changed in 30 years.
But you do have an outdated view of a contemporary Jesuit education.
If you mean Jesuit education does not mean Catholic education we can agree. If the University in becoming more secular just be honest about it and drop the Catholic identity and don't pretend to be something you are not.
It is a Catholic identity. In tune with the complete Catholic social teachings.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2021, 07:03:07 PM
If you mean Jesuit education does not mean Catholic education we can agree. If the University in becoming more secular just be honest about it and drop the Catholic identity and don't pretend to be something you are not.
Because this is what a contemporary Catholic university looks like.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 14, 2021, 04:23:28 PM
Outside of ND, can a Catholic university, especially one like MU, be a national university and exclusively Catholic?
It sounds like you want us to be the University of Dallas or Ava Maria.
MU was a national Catholic University in my day and the theology requirements were meant for Catholic students only so the University was not exclusively Catholic. Is ND exclusively Catholic, if so that is news to me?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 07:12:17 PM
Because this is what a contemporary Catholic university looks like.
To a non-Catholic.
Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2021, 07:05:16 PM
It is a Catholic identity. In tune with the complete Catholic social teachings.
...and while de-emphasizing catechetical teaching.
You need to brush up on your catechism.
Catholic teachings on race, capitalism, the environment, social justice, death penalty, dignity of labor, immigration, just war are quite liberal.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2021, 07:22:28 PM
To a non-Catholic.
No, this is what a contemporary Catholic university looks like. Your view is not a contemporary one - it's from 50+ years ago.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2021, 07:26:12 PM
...and while de-emphasizing catechetical teaching.
I didnt go to the Marquette you describe and I am not a young person.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 14, 2021, 07:22:28 PM
To a non-Catholic.
Proud Catholic. And I agree with Fluffy.
Proud Catholic and I agree with muwarrior69. Need more traditional Catholicism in today's Catholic education maybe more than ever. My opinion.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 06:08:36 PM
Lol. It goes back to this. You're funny!
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=61629.msg1322052#msg1322052
Nope it doesn't. Look back further to when you said what I quoted here. Where you quoted me. Look who I was quoting. Wasn't you. Look what I was referring to. Wasn't what you claim I was doing. I can't point out your shortcomings or Rocky Thanos will snap his fingers with all his great powers but try to think it through. You can do it. I believe in you.
Quote from: Farley36 on March 14, 2021, 09:06:12 PM
Nope it doesn't. Look back further to when you said what I quoted here. Where you quoted me. Look who I was quoting. Wasn't you. Look what I was referring to. Wasn't what you claim I was doing. I can't point out your shortcomings or Rocky Thanos will snap his fingers with all his great powers but try to think it through. You can do it. I believe in you.
Farley, I want more. Keep it clean and carry on. Yeah!
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 14, 2021, 08:58:55 PM
Proud Catholic and I agree with muwarrior69. Need more traditional Catholicism in today's Catholic education maybe more than ever. My opinion.
What is "traditional Catholicism"? Because for me it means reading the gospel and following the teachings of Jesus.
Quote from: marqfan22 on March 13, 2021, 02:51:25 PM
Haven't they secured a few absolutely massive donations?
Law school was like $60million
Lovell had nothing to do with that donation. I know the family that made that donation very very well. Can't credit him with that one unless we're handing him a trophy for right place right time to accept a check that was coming anyway.
Quote from: awilhelmscream on March 14, 2021, 10:27:40 PM
Lovell had nothing to do with that donation. I know the family that made that donation very very well. Can't credit him with that one unless we're handing him a trophy for right place right time to accept a check that was coming anyway.
Can you ask them what the big wigs think of Wojo? I'm pretty sure the family that donated is also involved in basketball (that's what the press release said). It'd be interesting to hear what donors actually think
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 14, 2021, 07:27:07 PM
No, this is what a contemporary Catholic university looks like. Your view is not a contemporary one - it's from 50+ years ago.
This is a pretty well-thought out piece on what traditional Catholic liberal arts education is and how it's lost its way from the focus of educating the whole person via the seven liberal arts. MU has waived some of these requirements even today, and is focusing on educating secular specialists. This is what some of us are positing.
I don't even know what "contemporary Catholic education" model is. When cuts are being made as we speak and requirements are being waived to some of the seven liberal arts, the university may be "faith-based" still, but it's not a "Catholic education" in any defined sense--contemporary or traditionally. It's moving us to secular Marquette Tech.
This is not about evangelizing to convert students into Catholics. It's about exposing and educating them to these liberal arts. For example, I was exposed to all seven at MU and didn't even take any classes in my major until junior year. So if waiving religion, fine arts, logic and other curricular defines contemporary, what that really means means is secular. And the educational focus has shifted from the whole person to a specialist.
And that may be fine to many as MU is following the market. But to others, we feel MU is losing its way and identity from its mission. Look no further than its capital investments under Lovell. This is the rub for us dissenters.
https://reverentcatholicmass.com/blog/best-overview-catholic-classical-education
Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2021, 07:27:03 PM
You need to brush up on your catechism.
Catholic teachings on race, capitalism, the environment, social justice, death penalty, dignity of labor, immigration, just war are quite liberal.
...emphasizing the temporal world rather than the eternal.
Why would the University in its mission statement, and with a broad brush, accuse former alumni that we were complicit in "white supremacy/racism and failed to confront racial injustice". Who the heck marched for civil rights back in the 60s. It was students like me. Yet simply because of the color our skin the University says we were blind to it. Its offensive.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 15, 2021, 07:44:15 AM
This is a pretty well-thought out piece on what traditional Catholic liberal arts education is and how it's lost its way from the focus of educating the whole person via the seven liberal arts. MU has waived some of these requirements even today, and is focusing on educating secular specialists. This is what some of us are positing.
I don't even know what "contemporary Catholic education" model is. When cuts are being made as we speak and requirements are being waived to some of the seven liberal arts, the university may be "faith-based" still, but it's not a "Catholic education" in any defined sense--contemporary or traditionally. It's moving us to secular Marquette Tech.
This is not about evangelizing to convert students into Catholics. It's about exposing and educating them to these liberal arts. For example, I was exposed to all seven at MU and didn't even take any classes in my major until junior year. So if waiving religion, fine arts, logic and other curricular defines contemporary, what that really means means is secular. And the educational focus has shifted from the whole person to a specialist.
And that may be fine to many as MU is following the market. But to others, we feel MU is losing its way and identity from its mission. Look no further than its capital investments under Lovell. This is the rub for us dissenters.
https://reverentcatholicmass.com/blog/best-overview-catholic-classical-education
What that article is emphasizing as a model of the liberal arts that hasn't existed for years at most places. And is this fundamentally all that different?
https://bulletin.marquette.edu/undergrad/marquettecorecurriculum/#requirementstext
And the idea of not taking any courses in your major until you are a junior is one that went by the wayside years ago. And for good reason. Exposing students to their major early on, while simultaneously taking core courses, lets them see the value in what they are taking from a liberal arts perspective. And it also gives them on opportunity to change their mind early in their tenure. (Furthermore it helps with retention.)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 08:17:54 AM
What that article is emphasizing as a model of the liberal arts that hasn't existed for years at most places. And is this fundamentally all that different?
https://bulletin.marquette.edu/undergrad/marquettecorecurriculum/#requirementstext
And the idea of not taking any courses in your major until you are a junior is one that went by the wayside years ago. And for good reason. Exposing students to their major early on, while simultaneously taking core courses, lets them see the value in what they are taking from a liberal arts perspective. And it also gives them on opportunity to change their mind early in their tenure. (Furthermore it helps with retention.)
The article actually highlights a model that is coming back more and more especially in the earlier years into high school and has seen students thrive at the next level. Being taught how to think versus what to think.
And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets. It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 08:17:54 AM
What that article is emphasizing as a model of the liberal arts that hasn't existed for years at most places. And is this fundamentally all that different?
https://bulletin.marquette.edu/undergrad/marquettecorecurriculum/#requirementstext
And the idea of not taking any courses in your major until you are a junior is one that went by the wayside years ago. And for good reason. Exposing students to their major early on, while simultaneously taking core courses, lets them see the value in what they are taking from a liberal arts perspective. And it also gives them on opportunity to change their mind early in their tenure. (Furthermore it helps with retention.)
But "gone by the wayside" is not a contemporary Catholic education model. It's is a faith-based, non-sectarian education focused on specialists and not on creating a whole person. Which is why the Jesuits were founded and is Marquette's mission.
Northwestern was founded by the Methodists, but it is now a private research university that is faith based. It is a model that works but it is not one that is Catholic by any definition. Lovell should just go ahead and make the mission change then. As you said, MU hasn't been "whole person" focused for many years.
The differences are profound, however, which is the rub. And in terms of being obsolete, I would argue that we could use more "whole person" educational institutions today, where ideas are soundly argued and considered, but not shouted up or down on Twitter.
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 15, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
The article actually highlights a model that is coming back more and more especially in the earlier years into high school and has seen students thrive at the next level. Being taught how to think versus what to think.
And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets. It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.
Yes Catholicism doesn't change. Except you know Vatican 2, stance on the death penalty, limbo, the concept of hell, marriage for priests, stance on slavery. Etc etc etc.
And that is the beauty and conflict of Catholicism. Those tenets have been in place for a long time. Very few Catholics agree with every single teaching. Our own perceptions, biases, politics hold heavy influence. Try to find a fierce anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-death penalty, environmental, social justice, anti-capitalism, pro-immigration warrior.
You can't. We are all cafeteria Catholics.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 15, 2021, 09:03:51 AM
Yes Catholicism doesn't change. Except you know Vatican 2, stance on the death penalty, limbo, the concept of hell, marriage for priests, stance on slavery. Etc etc etc.
All things that are a bit contentious. I put them in the watered down category. Vatican 2 is a touchy subject and the council had some arguable flaws.
Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2021, 09:09:30 AM
And that is the beauty and conflict of Catholicism. Those tenets have been in place for a long time. Very few Catholics agree with every single teaching. Our own perceptions, biases, politics hold heavy influence. Try to find a fierce anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-death penalty, environmental, social justice, anti-capitalism, pro-immigration warrior.
You can't. We are all cafeteria Catholics.
Agree Tower and that's not good. Rather large breakdown in the catechesis. As I said, watered down.
And I completely disagree. That is the challenge. Do you know of any Catholic who fervently believes all of those things? I know that I don't. My priest doesn't believe all of those things.
It's good conversation Tower. Some of those are non-negotiable and some are bigger buckets that have some nuances to them. What the Church fathers and doctors of the Church have to say is important and I admittedly have more to learn on all of this. There is so much that I feel is now just generalized into buckets. The truth does not change.
And even there we disagree. The old testament is ok with slavery, selling your children, and stoning to death those who labor on the sabbath.
Do you keep holy the sabbath? Are sports in Sunday sinful by old testament standards? Do you associate with anyone who is divorced? Shouldn't they be shunned? Have you ever dropped a GD it? Taking the Lord's name in vain. Isn't the entire US consumer culture based on the notion of coveting?
Which is why I dispute the notion of watered down religion.
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 15, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
The article actually highlights a model that is coming back more and more especially in the earlier years into high school and has seen students thrive at the next level. Being taught how to think versus what to think.
And that's fine. I have no idea what is happening at the high school level in that regard. I am talking about a college program where the liberal arts are almost exclusively taught in the first two years, isn't really contemporary nor do I believe it is necessarily Catholic.
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 15, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets. It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.
But I have had the opportunity to hear Fr. Dennis Holtschneider, president of the ACCU and former president of DePaul, speak multiple times on this issue. I am pretty sure he doesn't believe that Marquette, or many other Catholic universities, are straying from the core tenets of Catholicism.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 15, 2021, 08:59:47 AM
But "gone by the wayside" is not a contemporary Catholic education model. It's is a faith-based, non-sectarian education focused on specialists and not on creating a whole person. Which is why the Jesuits were founded and is Marquette's mission.
Northwestern was founded by the Methodists, but it is now a private research university that is faith based. It is a model that works but it is not one that is Catholic by any definition. Lovell should just go ahead and make the mission change then. As you said, MU hasn't been "whole person" focused for many years.
The differences are profound, however, which is the rub. And in terms of being obsolete, I would argue that we could use more "whole person" educational institutions today, where ideas are soundly argued and considered, but not shouted up or down on Twitter.
You and I have a different understanding of what creating a whole person means and how it is accomplished. And I think Marquette still does that.
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 15, 2021, 09:37:51 AM
It's good conversation Tower. Some of those are non-negotiable and some are bigger buckets that have some nuances to them. What the Church fathers and doctors of the Church have to say is important and I admittedly have more to learn on all of this. There is so much that I feel is now just generalized into buckets. The truth does not change.
Seeing as your principle argument seems to be that the Catholic Church is true and yet the Catholic Church is built on the Jewish church's foundation, which was fundamentally changed when a congregation of rabis decided that God's wife Ashera would just be written out of the tora then would seem that the truth can be changed. Another instance is that it was over the course of 5 hundred years that the various regional early Christian churches agreed on the modern biblical texts, we have ignored many, attempted to erase some, etc. the truth as it is in religion is not unchanging.
The liberal arts argument seems more suited for complaining that Marquette is losing its Jesuit foundation and becoming more cafeteria Catholic than it is secular.
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 15, 2021, 09:37:51 AM
The truth does not change.
I would agree that the truth doesn't change. But what is actually truth? That's the issue.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 15, 2021, 10:07:47 AM
Seeing as your principle argument seems to be that the Catholic Church is true and yet the Catholic Church is built on the Jewish church's foundation, which was fundamentally changed when a congregation of rabis decided that God's wife Ashera would just be written out of the tora then would seem that the truth can be changed. Another instance is that it was over the course of 5 hundred years that the various regional early Christian churches agreed on the modern biblical texts, we have ignored many, attempted to erase some, etc. the truth as it is in religion is not unchanging.
Galway,
I think your saying that the early church didn't agree at all and there was all these somewhat differing beliefs and texts that wasn't "standardized" until the Roman Emperor, Constantine, convened the council of Nicaea in 325? They threw out some texts and set the beliefs more or less.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 10:06:15 AM
You and I have a different understanding of what creating a whole person means and how it is accomplished. And I think Marquette still does that.
What is your definition then? My definition is based on the strict definition of what a Catholic education is: One that stresses exposure to the seven liberal arts with the goal of creating a whole person.
A faith-based education that is focusing on educating/training specialists is very different. If Marquette is waiving and cutting on 3 or 4 of the liberal arts, it is not educating "the whole person" in the traditional Catholic way.
One thing we agree on: Marquette has strayed from that mission for better or worse. One thing we will never agree: Many feel MU has lost its identity because of it, including as we see, many in its faculty and alumni.
Quote from: Warrior_2002 on March 15, 2021, 08:58:36 AM
And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets. It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.
I agree, that has been a problem for 1000s of years, the church keeps changing their interpretation of Jesus' words to try to fit a current narrative. Get rid of the anti-LGBT stuff, condemn capitalism, welcome the immigrant, take from the rich and give to the poor, challenge racism, champion women's rights, and most of all love thy neighbor regardless of their race, class, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc.
I think we would do much better as a society if we embraced the message of the gospels rather than the interpretations of men.
The liberal arts discussion is a good and necessary one but I guess I'm confused why people think Marquette has gotten away from it. When I was a student I was required to take classes in each of the seven traditional liberal arts (Class of 2011 grad). Have things changed since then? Or are people saying we need more of these classes to be required?
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on March 15, 2021, 10:22:03 AM
Galway,
I think your saying that the early church didn't agree at all and there was all these somewhat differing beliefs and texts that wasn't "standardized" until the Roman Emperor, Constantine, convened the council of Nicaea in 325? They threw out some texts and set the beliefs more or less.
Yeah that's what I was getting at. Couldn't remember the councils name at all. But the larger point is that there's a truth issue in the foundation, there's a truth issue at what texts we've deemed right or not. The "truth" is not unchanging in religion.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 10:28:15 AM
The liberal arts discussion is a good and necessary one but I guess I'm confused why people think Marquette has gotten away from it. When I was a student I was required to take classes in each of the seven traditional liberal arts (Class of 2011 grad). Have things changed since then? Or are people saying we need more of these classes to be required?
Here was my core: Two English, two math (calculus), two speech (public speaking and debate), two philosophy (general and logic), three general liberal arts including foreign language, physical science (I bypassed foreign language and science as I had in high school so I minored in Sociology), three fine arts and three theology classes. These were required in Bus Ad.
Today, many of these are optional, not required or switchable amongst the core, and instead of three business majors I was offered there are many more specialized options.
And, that's fine if that if the what the contemporary student wants. I get that the market has migrated that way. By definition, that is not a "Catholic education", where students are exposed and are expected to master the liberal arts to educate the "whole person" before moving on to a major.
MU is delivering faith-based specialties today where the mastering of the liberal arts is really a dusting and to a large degree, optional. Capital investments are going into the technical and cuts are being made to the liberal arts. It's very different than the original core.
And that's the base of the pro and con to Lovell and his administration I would say based on what I have heard. The identity has changed.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 15, 2021, 12:36:11 PM
Here was my core: Two English, two math (calculus), two speech (public speaking and debate), two philosophy (general and logic), three general liberal arts including foreign language, physical science (I bypassed foreign language and science as I had in high school so I minored in Sociology), three fine arts and three theology classes. These were required in Bus Ad.
Today, many of these are optional, not required or switchable amongst the core, and instead of three business majors I was offered there are many more specialized options.
And, that's fine if that if the what the contemporary student wants. I get that the market has migrated that way. By definition, that is not a "Catholic education", where students are exposed and are expected to master the liberal arts to educate the "whole person" before moving on to a major.
MU is delivering faith-based specialties today where the mastering of the liberal arts is really a dusting and to a large degree, optional. Capital investments are going into the technical and cuts are being made to the liberal arts. It's very different than the original core.
And that's the base of the pro and con to Lovell and his administration I would say based on what I have heard. The identity has changed.
My required core was largely the same in 2011. One less Theo, two less fine arts, and one less speech IIRC. Has it changed significantly since then?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 10:28:15 AM
The liberal arts discussion is a good and necessary one but I guess I'm confused why people think Marquette has gotten away from it. When I was a student I was required to take classes in each of the seven traditional liberal arts (Class of 2011 grad). Have things changed since then? Or are people saying we need more of these classes to be required?
my requirements as class of 98 A&S:
4 semesters of a foreign language (one could test out of two semesters)
3 semesters of Theology (Intro to Theology required)
4 semesters of Philosophy (two required - 050 and 104, Theory of Ethics)
4 semesters of English (including the 2 semesters of Expository Writing)
2 semesters of Western Civ
2 semesters of Math
2 semesters of Science
30 credits in my major
other random classes (I took a lot of history)
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 15, 2021, 12:48:33 PM
my requirements as class of 98 A&S:
4 semesters of a foreign language (one could test out of two semesters)
3 semesters of Theology (Intro to Theology required)
4 semesters of Philosophy (two required - 050 and 104, Theory of Ethics)
4 semesters of English (including the 2 semesters of Expository Writing)
2 semesters of Western Civ
2 semesters of Math
2 semesters of Science
30 credits in my major
other random classes (I took a lot of history)
That's pretty much what mine was too. My recollection was that it was three semesters of foreign language, but they were four credit classes.
And all of my extra courses were used to fill my major and double minor.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 12:53:20 PM
That's pretty much what mine was too. My recollection was that it was three semesters of foreign language, but they were four credit classes.
And all of my extra courses were used to fill my major and double minor.
I remember four semesters as I was miserable taking a foreign language. Meanwhile, my wife took them as blow-off courses.
I had enough credits for a History minor but not the right credits. Not a big deal for me though. I had my own interests that I wanted to study.
I omitted Western Civ so add that to my list.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 10:25:03 AM
I agree, that has been a problem for 1000s of years, the church keeps changing their interpretation of Jesus' words to try to fit a current narrative. Get rid of the anti-LGBT stuff, condemn capitalism, welcome the immigrant, take from the rich and give to the poor, challenge racism, champion women's rights, and most of all love thy neighbor regardless of their race, class, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc.
I think we would do much better as a society if we embraced the message of the gospels rather than the interpretations of men.
So much for that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-same-sex-unions-licit/2021/03/15/8c51ee80-8581-11eb-be4a-24b89f616f2c_story.html
It says that same-sex unions are "not ordered to the Creator's plan." It says acknowledging those unions is "illicit." It says that God "cannot bless sin."
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 12:42:45 PM
My required core was largely the same in 2011. One less Theo, two less fine arts, and one less speech IIRC. Has it changed significantly since then?
Here is Biz Ad today. Very different and scaled back on liberal arts and many are optional/elective.
https://www.marquette.edu/explore/major-business-administration.php
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 01:05:26 PM
So much for that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-same-sex-unions-licit/2021/03/15/8c51ee80-8581-11eb-be4a-24b89f616f2c_story.html
It says that same-sex unions are "not ordered to the Creator's plan." It says acknowledging those unions is "illicit." It says that God "cannot bless sin."
That's only as far as religion goes. He's previously stated that they deserve the same legal union rights on the civil side of things.
I swear the pope understands the separation of church and state better than most people who actually live in this country.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 15, 2021, 01:12:29 PM
That's only as far as religion goes. He's previously stated that they deserve the same legal union rights on the civil side of things.
I swear the pope understands the separation of church and state better than most people who actually live in this country.
...but the lifestyle is still sinful in the eyes of the church which is more interested in the salvation of their souls than their civil rights.
Can this be moved to the SUPERBAR please ? ? ? 8-)
I just looked through my transcript and assume the following must have been required in the 87-91 time frame. I don't know exactly what category a couple of them must have been in.
English - 4 classes
Philosophy - 4 classes
History - 2 classes
Poly Sci - 1 class
Foreign Language - 2 classes
Theology - 3 classes
Science - 3 classes (Psychology might have been an elective and/or fit into another category)
Economics - 1 class (probably fits into some other category)
Statistics - 1 class (probably fits into some other category)
I'm sure that there were probably some fine arts requirements too, but my minor was within fine arts, so I'm not sure what other students had to do.
I toured a school with my daughter this past weekend that considers itself a "liberal arts" but which I would characterize as "liberal arts lite" when compared to what I had to do. I'm a fan of liberal arts, so I am pleased that she does have to pick up some classes in a core curriculum (including some from natural sciences, social sciences, fine arts, humanities and foreign language) - but not nearly as much as I had to do at Marquette. However, it is more than my wife had to do at Marquette as an engineering student.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 01:34:39 PM
...but the lifestyle is still sinful in the eyes of the church which is more interested in the salvation of their souls than their civil rights.
Which is where separation of church and state comes in. To my reading, the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment allows for civil unions. I doubt that most religions will endorse it for a few more decades.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 15, 2021, 01:49:39 PM
I'm sure that there were probably some fine arts requirements too, but my minor was within fine arts, so I'm not sure what other students had to do.
Oh yeah, Fine Arts. I took Acting for Non Theatre Majors and Rony Eford was in my class.
My wife was BUS and they did not have to take a foreign language. In fact, BUS was where most hoops players ended up to avoid that requirement.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 01:05:26 PM
So much for that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-same-sex-unions-licit/2021/03/15/8c51ee80-8581-11eb-be4a-24b89f616f2c_story.html
It says that same-sex unions are "not ordered to the Creator's plan." It says acknowledging those unions is "illicit." It says that God "cannot bless sin."
This is an example of the church not following Jesus' teachings in the gospel but rather the interpretations of men made after Jesus' time.
And there's a difference between being "anti-LGBT" and saying that priests cannot bless same sex unions. Pope Francis has moved the church in the correct direction, back towards Jesus' message of undiscriminating love, but organizations as old as the Church can only move so fast. I am hopeful that we will see blessed same-sex unions in my lifetime.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 15, 2021, 01:06:21 PM
Here is Biz Ad today. Very different and scaled back on liberal arts and many are optional/elective.
https://www.marquette.edu/explore/major-business-administration.php
These are major requirements. But don't all students have to fulfill their core curriculum requirements?
https://bulletin.marquette.edu/undergrad/marquettecorecurriculum/#requirementstext
These seem to be very heavily focused on liberal arts.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 02:04:59 PM
These are major requirements. But don't all students have to fulfill their core curriculum requirements?
https://bulletin.marquette.edu/undergrad/marquettecorecurriculum/#requirementstext
These seem to be very heavily focused on liberal arts.
That appears to be a significant reduction in liberal arts from what I listed (including Western Civ). My only business classes my first two years was two Accounting modules, mostly to weed people out. I didn't get into my major (Business) into junior year.
With the common liberal arts foundation, you expected to master those 7 areas before you moved onto your major. In many ways it was utilitarian in that you could pick the major you discovered along that journey. Today, if I switched from Business to Engineering after sophomore year, I'd would have wasted two years, for example.
I would say the closest to providing a "Catholic Education" in the traditional sense today are the Marianists. Fluffy or some other pros here can correct me.
Btw, looking back, these were some of my most memorable classes while at MU.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 15, 2021, 02:40:47 PM
That appears to be a significant reduction in liberal arts from what I listed (including Western Civ). My only business classes my first two years was two Accounting modules, mostly to weed people out. I didn't get into my major (Business) into junior year.
With the common liberal arts foundation, you expected to master those 7 areas before you moved onto your major. In many ways it was utilitarian in that you could pick the major you discovered along that journey. Today, if I switched from Business to Engineering after sophomore year, I'd would have wasted two years, for example.
I would say the closest to providing a "Catholic Education" in the traditional sense today are the Marianists. Fluffy or some other pros here can correct me.
Btw, looking back, these were some of my most memorable classes while at MU.
Interesting. It looks like you took 18 liberal arts courses and the current core requires 10 but I would imagine most majors contain at least a few classes that focus on the liberal arts. I'm passionate about the liberal arts and would hate to see MU lose that part of its identity. I personally don't think they have but it's certainly not as heavy of a focus as it once was. What the best balance is, I'm not certain. Thanks for the perspective.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 15, 2021, 02:40:47 PM
I would say the closest to providing a "Catholic Education" in the traditional sense today are the Marianists. Fluffy or some other pros here can correct me.
Oh I am hardly a curriculum pro, but here is Dayton's Common Academic Program.
http://catalog.udayton.edu/undergraduate/cap/requirements/
Now this may look like a lot. But many courses in their major can count toward this program. And some courses actually count toward two CAP requirements. So I have no idea how this actually plays out when you go there and pick a major. But what I like about it is that it gets rid of the "checkbox" style of a core curriculum, and shows how the liberal arts play a role in your major.
Depended on the major when I was there, class of 2015.
In some Health Science majors you didn't have to take anything. No math, only one Theo, no language, no fine arts, two english and that was about all.
In Arts and Science it was one math, two languages, Two theo one science. Common core classes have really quite dropped off significantly from what I remember.
I think AP classes cover some of those requirements too. So not all may be taken at MU.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 03:03:39 PM
Oh I am hardly a curriculum pro, but here is Dayton's Common Academic Program.
http://catalog.udayton.edu/undergraduate/cap/requirements/
Now this may look like a lot. But many courses in their major can count toward this program. And some courses actually count toward two CAP requirements. So I have no idea how this actually plays out when you go there and pick a major. But what I like about it is that it gets rid of the "checkbox" style of a core curriculum, and shows how the liberal arts play a role in your major.
Here's ND:
The Notre Dame Core Curriculum
Six Courses in the General Liberal Arts
Liberal Arts 1: Quantitative Reasoning
Liberal Arts 2: Science & Technology
Liberal Arts 3: Quantitative Reasoning or Science & Technology
Liberal Arts 4: Art & Literature, or Advanced Language & Culture
Liberal Arts 5: History or Social Science
Liberal Arts 6: Integration or Way of Knowing not yet chosen from 4 or 5
Four Courses Exploring Explicitly Catholic Dimensions of the Liberal Arts
Theology 1: Foundational
Theology 2: Developmental
Philosophy 1: Introductory
Philosophy 2 or CAD: Philosophy elective or Catholicism and the Disciplines
Two Courses in Writing
Writing 1: University Seminar*
Writing 2: Writing & Rhetoric or Other Writing-Intensive Course
Moreau First Year Experience
Moreau: One two-semester course
(this is a program that helps new students to integrate their academic, co-curricular, and residential experiences)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
This is an example of the church not following Jesus' teachings in the gospel but rather the interpretations of men made after Jesus' time.
And there's a difference between being "anti-LGBT" and saying that priests cannot bless same sex unions. Pope Francis has moved the church in the correct direction, back towards Jesus' message of undiscriminating love, but organizations as old as the Church can only move so fast. I am hopeful that we will see blessed same-sex unions in my lifetime.
So you are saying the Pope signed off on a decree to which he is opposed and does not believe that same sex unions are illicit and sinful? Jesus' message of undiscriminating love is the love where he died and rose again so that we who believe in Him will be redeemed of our sins. That love and sex are the same are interpretations of men made after Jesus' time.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 05:27:09 PM
So you are saying the Pope signed off on a decree to which he is opposed and does not believe that same sex unions are illicit and sinful? Jesus' message of undiscriminating love is the love where he died and rose again so that we who believe in Him will be redeemed of our sins. That love and sex are the same are interpretations of men made after Jesus' time.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 01:34:39 PM
...but the lifestyle is still sinful in the eyes of the church which is more interested in the salvation of their souls than their civil rights.
This is what happens when the pope recognizes genuinely being a good person vs what the teachings of the church are. They cannot say it isn't a sin within the church. They're instructing their followers to be good people and not discriminate against them.
This isn't a complicated thought process
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 05:27:09 PM
So you are saying the Pope signed off on a decree to which he is opposed and does not believe that same sex unions are illicit and sinful? Jesus' message of undiscriminating love is the love where he died and rose again so that we who believe in Him will be redeemed of our sins. That love and sex are the same are interpretations of men made after Jesus' time.
I don't think I said anything about sex and love being the same thing. If you could point to where in the gospel Jesus says anything condemning same sex relationships, I would love to read it.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 15, 2021, 01:58:33 PM
Oh yeah, Fine Arts. I took Acting for Non Theatre Majors and Rony Eford was in my class.
My wife was BUS and they did not have to take a foreign language. In fact, BUS was where most hoops players ended up to avoid that requirement.
'89-93 BUS there was absolutely a foreign language requirement. I was able to test out of it as I had four years of German in HS and was fluent at the time.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
This is an example of the church not following Jesus' teachings in the gospel but rather the interpretations of men made after Jesus' time.
And there's a difference between being "anti-LGBT" and saying that priests cannot bless same sex unions. Pope Francis has moved the church in the correct direction, back towards Jesus' message of undiscriminating love, but organizations as old as the Church can only move so fast. I am hopeful that we will see blessed same-sex unions in my lifetime.
how does blessed same-sex unions jive with 1Cor 6:9-10 or Gal. 5:19, to offer two passages on the subject. Jesus' love does not discriminate, so true. However, "the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God". -NIV If we are to follow the word of God, the teachings of Christ, we can't have it two ways. Love our brothers and sisters in Christ, but not, in some instances, the lifestyle. Same sex union, marriage, however you want to label or define it, cannot be blessed if following true to scripture.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 15, 2021, 06:59:48 PM
how does blessed same-sex unions jive with 1Cor 6:9-10 or Gal. 5:19, to offer two passages on the subject. Jesus' love does not discriminate, so true. However, "the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God". -NIV If we are to follow the word of God, the teachings of Christ, we can't have it two ways. Love our brothers and sisters in Christ, but not, in some instances, the lifestyle. Same sex union, marriage, however you want to label or define it, cannot be blessed if following true to scripture.
We always pick the scripture that suits our point of view and not vice versa.
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 15, 2021, 06:59:48 PM
how does blessed same-sex unions jive with 1Cor 6:9-10 or Gal. 5:19, to offer two passages on the subject. Jesus' love does not discriminate, so true. However, "the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God". -NIV If we are to follow the word of God, the teachings of Christ, we can't have it two ways. Love our brothers and sisters in Christ, but not, in some instances, the lifestyle. Same sex union, marriage, however you want to label or define it, cannot be blessed if following true to scripture.
Galatians and Corinthians are Paul's words, not Jesus' no?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 06:39:03 PM
I don't think I said anything about sex and love being the same thing. If you could point to where in the gospel Jesus says anything condemning same sex relationships, I would love to read it.
Jesus never condemned slavery, but that does not mean he condoned it either. Illicit sex such as adultery was punishable by death, unthinkable today, yet He told the adulteress after shaming the crowd that no one is without sin, to go and sin no more. As a Jew and rabbi I can safely conclude that Jesus would not condone sodomy or homosexuality, but like the adulteress neither condemn them for their sin. He was in the business of saving souls not condemning them.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 15, 2021, 07:11:24 PM
We always pick the scripture that suits our point of view and not vice versa.
are you implying that's what I'm doing? I'm not. I don't.
Guys, if you want to talk about Lovell, Marquette, Catholicism, and what the faith means to Marquette, great. But the interpretation of the scripture (preaching) is a bit much. Thanks.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 07:13:12 PM
Galatians and Corinthians are Paul's words, not Jesus' no?
Paul's words. Can we agree as gained by Christ? Per MUWarrior69, Jesus would never condone homosexuality. Rather, He condemns it. Hence, how could the church bless it?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 15, 2021, 07:36:43 PM
Jesus never condemned slavery, but that does not mean he condoned it either. Illicit sex such as adultery was punishable by death, unthinkable today, yet He told the adulteress after shaming the crowd that no one is without sin, to go and sin no more. As a Jew and rabbi I can safely conclude that Jesus would not condone sodomy or homosexuality, but like the adulteress neither condemn them for their sin. He was in the business of saving souls not condemning them.
Jesus did condemn slavery. Slavery is based in hatred and oppression which Jesus condemned at every opportunity. Same sex relationships are based in love which Jesus championed at every opportunity.
How do you get jesus was against same sex relationships from him sparing an adulterer? Im sure Jesus was against adultery no matter the genitals involved.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 15, 2021, 07:42:35 PM
Guys, if you want to talk about Lovell, Marquette, Catholicism, and what the faith means to Marquette, great. But the interpretation of the scripture (preaching) is a bit much. Thanks.
hey man, don't make me give you a T! From crappy coaching to loser Lovell, 26% 3-ball shooting to theology 101...long live scoop😀
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 15, 2021, 07:42:35 PM
Guys, if you want to talk about Lovell, Marquette, Catholicism, and what the faith means to Marquette, great. But the interpretation of the scripture (preaching) is a bit much. Thanks.
Apologies Rocky. Didn't know that was a no no. I'll withdraw.
69, feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue our conversation
Quote from: Marq3332 on March 15, 2021, 07:52:48 PM
hey man, don't make me give you a T! From crappy coaching to loser Lovell, 26% 3-ball shooting to theology 101...long live scoop😀
FWIW, as a non-Catholic engineering major, I really enjoyed the theology and philosophy courses at Marquette. It doesn't sound like they've been totally lost, so that's a good thing :)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2021, 07:48:38 PM
Jesus did condemn slavery. Slavery is based in hatred and oppression which Jesus condemned at every opportunity. Same sex relationships are based in love which Jesus championed at every opportunity.
How do you get jesus was against same sex relationships from him sparing an adulterer? Im sure Jesus was against adultery no matter the genitals involved.
This is why we pay the big bucks and subscribe to MU Scoop (https://media4.giphy.com/media/1BFEEIo4h1BuTH8eqP/giphy.gif)
Engineering major from '87 to '91.
When applying to universities I was split between History French double major or engineering. Engineering seemed like more stable work afterwards.
I wanted to take French for all my few a&s class requirements but Marquette would not allow me. I took French 2 during first semester Freshman because I was told that's where I placed. 1 month in I was told I shouldn't have been enrolled because I didn't place into but the Prof signed off saying I was fine and fit in. Nothing else fit my schedule afterwards since they kill you with classes in engineering. I ended up with 2 poly sci courses instead going forward.