Question on Lovell

[Dr. Blackheart]

What that article is emphasizing as a model of the liberal arts that hasn't existed for years at most places.  And is this fundamentally all that different?

https://bulletin.marquette.edu/undergrad/marquettecorecurriculum/#requirementstext

And the idea of not taking any courses in your major until you are a junior is one that went by the wayside years ago.  And for good reason.  Exposing students to their major early on, while simultaneously taking core courses, lets them see the value in what they are taking from a liberal arts perspective.  And it also gives them on opportunity to change their mind early in their tenure.  (Furthermore it helps with retention.)

But "gone by the wayside" is not a contemporary Catholic education model. It's is a faith-based, non-sectarian education focused on specialists and not on creating a whole person. Which is why the Jesuits were founded and is Marquette's mission.

Northwestern was founded by the Methodists, but it is now a private research university that is faith based. It is a model that works but it is not one that is Catholic by any definition. Lovell should just go ahead and make the mission change then.  As you said, MU hasn't been "whole person" focused for many years.

The differences are profound, however, which is the rub. And in terms of being obsolete, I would argue that we could use more "whole person" educational institutions today, where ideas are soundly argued and considered, but not shouted up or down on Twitter.

[Galway Eagle]

The article actually highlights a model that is coming back more and more especially in the earlier years into high school and has seen students thrive at the next level.  Being taught how to think versus what to think.

And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets.  It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.

Yes Catholicism doesn't change. Except you know Vatican 2, stance on the death penalty, limbo, the concept of hell, marriage for priests, stance on slavery. Etc etc etc.

[tower912]

And that is the beauty and conflict of Catholicism.   Those tenets have been in place for a long time.   Very few Catholics agree with every single teaching.   Our own perceptions, biases, politics hold heavy influence.    Try to find a fierce anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-death penalty, environmental, social justice, anti-capitalism, pro-immigration warrior.

You can't.   We are all cafeteria Catholics.

[Warrior_2002]

Yes Catholicism doesn't change. Except you know Vatican 2, stance on the death penalty, limbo, the concept of hell, marriage for priests, stance on slavery. Etc etc etc.

All things that are a bit contentious.  I put them in the watered down category.  Vatican 2 is a touchy subject and the council had some arguable flaws. 

[Warrior_2002]

And that is the beauty and conflict of Catholicism.   Those tenets have been in place for a long time.   Very few Catholics agree with every single teaching.   Our own perceptions, biases, politics hold heavy influence.    Try to find a fierce anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anti-death penalty, environmental, social justice, anti-capitalism, pro-immigration warrior.

You can't.   We are all cafeteria Catholics.

Agree Tower and that's not good.  Rather large breakdown in the catechesis.  As I said, watered down.

[tower912]

And I completely disagree.   That is the challenge.    Do you know of any Catholic who fervently believes all of those things?   I know that I don't.   My priest doesn't believe all of those things.

[Warrior_2002]

It's good conversation Tower.  Some of those are non-negotiable and some are bigger buckets that have some nuances to them.  What the Church fathers and doctors of the Church have to say is important and I admittedly have more to learn on all of this.  There is so much that I feel is now just generalized into buckets.  The truth does not change.

[tower912]

And even there we disagree.   The old testament is ok with slavery, selling your children, and stoning to death those who labor on the sabbath.

Do you keep holy the sabbath?  Are sports in Sunday sinful by old testament standards?   Do you associate with anyone who is divorced?   Shouldn't they be shunned?   Have you ever dropped a GD it?  Taking the Lord's name in vain.   Isn't the entire US consumer culture based on the notion of coveting?

Which is why I dispute the notion of watered down religion.

[The Sultan]

The article actually highlights a model that is coming back more and more especially in the earlier years into high school and has seen students thrive at the next level.  Being taught how to think versus what to think.

And that's fine.  I have no idea what is happening at the high school level in that regard.  I am talking about a college program where the liberal arts are almost exclusively taught in the first two years, isn't really contemporary nor do I believe it is necessarily Catholic.

And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets.  It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.

But I have had the opportunity to hear Fr. Dennis Holtschneider, president of the ACCU and former president of DePaul, speak multiple times on this issue.  I am pretty sure he doesn't believe that Marquette, or many other Catholic universities, are straying from the core tenets of Catholicism.

[The Sultan]

But "gone by the wayside" is not a contemporary Catholic education model. It's is a faith-based, non-sectarian education focused on specialists and not on creating a whole person. Which is why the Jesuits were founded and is Marquette's mission.

Northwestern was founded by the Methodists, but it is now a private research university that is faith based. It is a model that works but it is not one that is Catholic by any definition. Lovell should just go ahead and make the mission change then.  As you said, MU hasn't been "whole person" focused for many years.

The differences are profound, however, which is the rub. And in terms of being obsolete, I would argue that we could use more "whole person" educational institutions today, where ideas are soundly argued and considered, but not shouted up or down on Twitter.

You and I have a different understanding of what creating a whole person means and how it is accomplished.  And I think Marquette still does that.

[Galway Eagle]

It's good conversation Tower.  Some of those are non-negotiable and some are bigger buckets that have some nuances to them.  What the Church fathers and doctors of the Church have to say is important and I admittedly have more to learn on all of this.  There is so much that I feel is now just generalized into buckets.  The truth does not change.

Seeing as your principle argument seems to be that the Catholic Church is true and yet the Catholic Church is built on the Jewish church's foundation, which was fundamentally changed when a congregation of rabis decided that God's wife Ashera would just be written out of the tora then would seem that the truth can be changed. Another instance is that it was over the course of 5 hundred years that the various regional early Christian churches agreed on the modern biblical texts, we have ignored many, attempted to erase some, etc. the truth as it is in religion is not unchanging.

[Galway Eagle]

The liberal arts argument seems more suited for complaining that Marquette is losing its Jesuit foundation and becoming more cafeteria Catholic than it is secular.

[The Sultan]

The truth does not change.

I would agree that the truth doesn't change.  But what is actually truth?  That's the issue.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Seeing as your principle argument seems to be that the Catholic Church is true and yet the Catholic Church is built on the Jewish church's foundation, which was fundamentally changed when a congregation of rabis decided that God's wife Ashera would just be written out of the tora then would seem that the truth can be changed. Another instance is that it was over the course of 5 hundred years that the various regional early Christian churches agreed on the modern biblical texts, we have ignored many, attempted to erase some, etc. the truth as it is in religion is not unchanging.

Galway,
I think your saying that the early church didn't agree at all and there was all these somewhat differing beliefs and texts that wasn't "standardized" until the Roman Emperor, Constantine, convened the council of Nicaea in 325?  They threw out some texts and set the beliefs more or less.

[Dr. Blackheart]

You and I have a different understanding of what creating a whole person means and how it is accomplished.  And I think Marquette still does that.

What is your definition then? My definition is based on the strict definition of what a Catholic education is: One that stresses exposure to the seven liberal arts with the goal of creating a whole person.

A faith-based education that is focusing on educating/training specialists is very different. If Marquette is waiving and cutting on 3 or 4 of the liberal arts, it is not educating "the whole person" in the traditional Catholic way.

One thing we agree on: Marquette has strayed from that mission for better or worse. One thing we will never agree: Many feel MU has lost its identity because of it, including as we see, many in its faculty and alumni.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And to answer an earlier question about traditional Catholicism, I'll simplify it by saying it is a Catholicism that is not watered down and holds true to its tenets.  It doesn't change and try to look more like the contemporary world.

I agree, that has been a problem for 1000s of years, the church keeps changing their interpretation of Jesus' words to try to fit a current narrative. Get rid of the anti-LGBT stuff, condemn capitalism, welcome the immigrant, take from the rich and give to the poor, challenge racism, champion women's rights, and most of all love thy neighbor regardless of their race, class, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

I think we would do much better as a society if we embraced the message of the gospels rather than the interpretations of men.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The liberal arts discussion is a good and necessary one but I guess I'm confused why people think Marquette has gotten away from it. When I was a student I was required to take classes in each of the seven traditional liberal arts (Class of 2011 grad). Have things changed since then? Or are people saying we need more of these classes to be required?

[Galway Eagle]

Galway,
I think your saying that the early church didn't agree at all and there was all these somewhat differing beliefs and texts that wasn't "standardized" until the Roman Emperor, Constantine, convened the council of Nicaea in 325?  They threw out some texts and set the beliefs more or less.

Yeah that's what I was getting at. Couldn't remember the councils name at all. But the larger point is that there's a truth issue in the foundation, there's a truth issue at what texts we've deemed right or not. The "truth" is not unchanging in religion.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The liberal arts discussion is a good and necessary one but I guess I'm confused why people think Marquette has gotten away from it. When I was a student I was required to take classes in each of the seven traditional liberal arts (Class of 2011 grad). Have things changed since then? Or are people saying we need more of these classes to be required?

Here was my core: Two English, two math (calculus), two speech (public speaking and debate), two philosophy (general and logic), three general liberal arts including foreign language, physical science (I bypassed foreign language and science as I had in high school so I minored in Sociology), three fine arts and three theology classes. These were required in Bus Ad.

Today, many of these are optional, not required or switchable amongst the core,  and instead of three business majors I was offered there are many more specialized options.

And, that's fine if that if the what the contemporary student wants. I get that  the market has migrated that way. By definition, that is not a "Catholic education", where students are exposed and are expected to master the liberal arts to educate the "whole person" before moving on to a major.

MU is delivering faith-based specialties today where the mastering of the liberal arts is really a dusting and to a large degree, optional. Capital investments are going into the technical and cuts are being made to the liberal arts. It's very different than the original core.

And that's the base of the pro and con to Lovell and his administration I would say based on what I have heard. The identity has changed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Here was my core: Two English, two math (calculus), two speech (public speaking and debate), two philosophy (general and logic), three general liberal arts including foreign language, physical science (I bypassed foreign language and science as I had in high school so I minored in Sociology), three fine arts and three theology classes. These were required in Bus Ad.

Today, many of these are optional, not required or switchable amongst the core,  and instead of three business majors I was offered there are many more specialized options.

And, that's fine if that if the what the contemporary student wants. I get that  the market has migrated that way. By definition, that is not a "Catholic education", where students are exposed and are expected to master the liberal arts to educate the "whole person" before moving on to a major.

MU is delivering faith-based specialties today where the mastering of the liberal arts is really a dusting and to a large degree, optional. Capital investments are going into the technical and cuts are being made to the liberal arts. It's very different than the original core.

And that's the base of the pro and con to Lovell and his administration I would say based on what I have heard. The identity has changed.

My required core was largely the same in 2011. One less Theo,  two less fine arts, and one less speech IIRC. Has it changed significantly since then?

[Billy Hoyle]

The liberal arts discussion is a good and necessary one but I guess I'm confused why people think Marquette has gotten away from it. When I was a student I was required to take classes in each of the seven traditional liberal arts (Class of 2011 grad). Have things changed since then? Or are people saying we need more of these classes to be required?

my requirements as class of 98 A&S:

4 semesters of a foreign language (one could test out of two semesters)
3 semesters of Theology (Intro to Theology required)
4 semesters of Philosophy (two required - 050 and 104, Theory of Ethics)
4 semesters of English (including the 2 semesters of Expository Writing)
2 semesters of Western Civ
2 semesters of Math
2 semesters of Science
30 credits in my major
other random classes (I took a lot of history)

[The Sultan]

my requirements as class of 98 A&S:

4 semesters of a foreign language (one could test out of two semesters)
3 semesters of Theology (Intro to Theology required)
4 semesters of Philosophy (two required - 050 and 104, Theory of Ethics)
4 semesters of English (including the 2 semesters of Expository Writing)
2 semesters of Western Civ
2 semesters of Math
2 semesters of Science
30 credits in my major
other random classes (I took a lot of history)

That's pretty much what mine was too.  My recollection was that it was three semesters of foreign language, but they were four credit classes.

And all of my extra courses were used to fill my major and double minor.

[Billy Hoyle]

That's pretty much what mine was too.  My recollection was that it was three semesters of foreign language, but they were four credit classes.

And all of my extra courses were used to fill my major and double minor.

I remember four semesters as I was miserable taking a foreign language. Meanwhile, my wife took them as blow-off courses.

I had enough credits for a History minor but not the right credits. Not a big deal for me though. I had my own interests that I wanted to study.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I omitted Western Civ so add that to my list.

[muwarrior69]

I agree, that has been a problem for 1000s of years, the church keeps changing their interpretation of Jesus' words to try to fit a current narrative. Get rid of the anti-LGBT stuff, condemn capitalism, welcome the immigrant, take from the rich and give to the poor, challenge racism, champion women's rights, and most of all love thy neighbor regardless of their race, class, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

I think we would do much better as a society if we embraced the message of the gospels rather than the interpretations of men.

So much for that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-same-sex-unions-licit/2021/03/15/8c51ee80-8581-11eb-be4a-24b89f616f2c_story.html

It says that same-sex unions are "not ordered to the Creator's plan." It says acknowledging those unions is "illicit." It says that God "cannot bless sin."