MUScoop

To be fair, I think most folks here are pretty consistent in their no-jo, pro-jo and so-so-jo positions. That said, what would it take to move your needle on Wojo this season. I've tried to put in some pretty comprehensive possibilities from both the projo and nojo sides - and I realize some might be "either/or" (like either a conference title or a deep NCAA run), but I don't think Rocky has invested in that kind of poll technology.

For me, I think a run to the BET finals or a NCAA Tourney win would go a long ways. Where the team is right now, I think either of those would mean a solid coaching performance. Granted, it's a small sample size, but something at least moving the program forward.

For reference, I'm currently of the belief that Wojo isn't going to take us to new heights. He's pretty much Crean without the Final Four. My hope is an ACC job opens up and both sides part amicably.

There are a few things I'd like to see from this point forward:

No more than 3 losses in conference the rest of the way, which would give us a total of 6 for the season.  In other words, a strong conference record.  This has been a consistent problem under Wojo.

Two NCAA tournament wins.  Winning in just the first round would be nice, but beating two good teams in one weekend will require some good coaching and motivation from Wojo.  And he needs to win two to make up for his complete goose egg thus far.

I said other, as I think there is a result a bit short of a conference title that would move my needle. That is a top 3 finish in the BEast. To do so, we'd need to avoid the late season collapse (which is important to my perception of Wojo's success this season).

I would like to see decent results in both the BEast tourney and the NCAAs, but I think that COVID is likely to wreak havoc on how those function this year, so the standard metric of, say, two wins in each may not mean the same as in normal years.

To date, I've fallen on the side of being patient, of giving Wojo more time. Like many others, though, I'm fearing that he has reached his plateau. And I'd like more and better for MU.

A scandal.   

For me it's less about results and more about trends. I want to see a team that understands the value of a possession. I want to see a team that limits opponents opportunities from three, regardless of make or miss since 3PFG% defense is really just luck. And I want to see clear evidence from the staff that they understand the importance of advanced analytics, particularly because understanding and knowing how to manipulate those numbers in game is more important now than ever before because it is the foundation of the NET which determines bids and seeding.

You can win a game against the odds like Georgetown or Creighton, you can sneak in and make a surprising S16 run, but that doesn't address the long-term trends that underlie the program's backward trajectory.

What would it take? Hire a video coordinator that understands analytics rather than just promoting a grad assistant. Add assistants from analytic savvy programs rather than just another recruiter.

This is why I'm less encouraged by wins. The problems I'm seeing are fundamental and in my opinion need a mindset change to correct. I'm not convinced this is a staff willing to unlearn what they think they know to move forward with a program suited for 21st century success.

There is a lot more to good decision making than the numbers.
Numbers are only a part of good decision making.
People call it decision making when the numbers really make the decision and not the human.
A good "decision" to dump WOJO would require a plan going forward besides relying on luck and another time consuming project.  Iona chose Rick Paterno, he is doing well, his numbers look good.  Who is in with him as our next coach?  What if he makes a run in the NCAA?
BTW, Iona is a well regarded NYC area Christian Brothers university.
There is more to life than the numbers.

Quote from: tower912 on January 04, 2021, 09:44:13 AM
A scandal.

Come on, I put the "cocaine and strippers" option there just for you - you could have clicked it!

Quote from: 1SE on January 04, 2021, 09:59:11 AM
Come on, I put the "cocaine and strippers" option there just for you - you could have clicked it!

Love it, so you are in with Pitino, me too.
Let's trash WOJO and go for the gold, hay, Iona is doing it.
A year or two of contrition, forgivness, and we sign him up.
Go with a winner, you can't lose.

Quote from: vogue65 on January 04, 2021, 10:08:47 AM
Love it, so you are in with Pitino, me too.
Let's trash WOJO and go for the gold, hay, Iona is doing it.
A year or two of contrition, forgivness, and we sign him up.
Go with a winner, you can't lose.

Marquette has had good coaches a with less than flawless moral compass. We've had quality moral coaches that were less than spectacular basketball coaches. I don't think it's too much to hope for both.

Quote from: 1SE on January 04, 2021, 09:59:11 AM
Come on, I put the "cocaine and strippers" option there just for you - you could have clicked it!

That's less of a scandal and more of a good time...wait, does this mean I support hiring Pitino?

Hey, it's why pencils have erasers. I thought there was something about forgiveness and redemption in THEO 1001.

Quote from: 1SE on January 04, 2021, 12:39:02 PM
Hey, it's why pencils have erasers. I thought there was something about forgiveness and redemption in THEO 1001.

THEO 1001 was all blocks and fouls.

Quote from: 1SE on January 04, 2021, 12:39:02 PM
Hey, it's why pencils have erasers. I thought there was something about forgiveness and redemption in THEO 1001.

I didn't think MU was allowed to teach that anymore. 

Quote from: 1SE on January 04, 2021, 09:59:11 AM
Come on, I put the "cocaine and strippers" option there just for you - you could have clicked it!

I dont think cocaine and stippers would even have a chance of being fun with Wojo. 

I have switched during the last 18 months from very pro-jo due to his clean program and strong recruiting to no-jo because he cannot actually coach basketball.  I do believe that teaching and coaching the game should be part of the job requirements. 

Quote from: WarriorFan on January 05, 2021, 02:53:12 AM
I have switched during the last 18 months from very pro-jo due to his clean program and strong recruiting to no-jo because he cannot actually coach basketball.  I do believe that teaching and coaching the game should be part of the job requirements.

Yeah, lots of folks could run a scandal free basketball programme for a lot less than 2 million a year if that is the only criterion for the job.

 A sub .500 conference record with this team would turn me into a nojo (the needle would go from middle toward a solid negative direction).

Just win baby!

Winning has a way of solving even the most severe problems. At this point, I want Coach Wojo and the guys to win every day!

Quote from: dgies9156 on January 05, 2021, 08:02:18 AM
Just win baby!

Winning has a way of solving even the most severe problems. At this point, I want Coach Wojo and the guys to win every day!

Groundbreaking analysis, truly.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on January 05, 2021, 07:27:31 AM
A sub .500 conference record with this team would turn me into a nojo (the needle would go from middle toward a solid negative direction).

First five is a guy who's played 25 collegiate games, a guy who's in his second year with the program, a guy who's never been a regular starter, a rookie, and a foul prone big.

Off the bench is a rookie, a sophomore PG, and a walking injury.

What kind of results are you expecting with "this team"?

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 05, 2021, 10:22:51 AM
First five is a guy who's played 25 collegiate games, a guy who's in his second year with the program, a guy who's never been a regular starter, a rookie, and a foul prone big.

Off the bench is a rookie, a sophomore PG, and a walking injury.

What kind of results are you expecting with "this team"?

its not the losing. It's how they lose. Same garbage for now a 7th season.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 05, 2021, 10:22:51 AM
First five is a guy who's played 25 collegiate games, a guy who's in his second year with the program, a guy who's never been a regular starter, a rookie, and a foul prone big.

Or, you could say that the first five are a fifth year senior, two fourth year seniors, a McDonald's AA, and the No. 31 recruit in the 2019 class who played twenty games with Ohio State last year, averaging 24mpg and 10ppg.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 05, 2021, 11:10:27 AM
Or, you could say that the first five are a fifth year senior, two fourth year seniors, a McDonald's AA, and the No. 31 recruit in the 2019 class who played twenty games with Ohio State last year, averaging 24mpg and 10ppg.

I could have called Cam Marotta a 4th year senior last season, it wouldn't have made him good.

Preseason KenPom said this roster was 34th best in the country. T-Rank I don't remember exactly but I think it was 76th. Most Scoopers ranged from "barely make the tournament" to "lucky to make the NIT".

I think the truth of how good this roster is likely between the two extremes of KP and T-Rank. If we end up on the high end of that range (9 seed), I think that means Wojo had a good year.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 05, 2021, 12:16:34 PM
I could have called Cam Marotta a 4th year senior last season, it wouldn't have made him good.

I guess I don't get this...are you saying Cain and Theo aren't good, or just inexperienced?

Theo has appeared in 108 career games, starting 74.

Cain has appeared in 104 games, starting 16.  He averaged 17mpg as a freshman and 18mpg last year.  He has been a rotation guy for two of his three seasons at Marquette.

Koby, our fifth year senior, was a starter for two years at Utah State.  He's played in 102 career games and started 101.

We are not an inexperienced team, and I actually think we have quite a bit of talent.  And if it's the talent that's lacking, well, that's on Wojo.

Strong conference showing—top 3.  Tournaments are a crapshoot but a great big east season without a late season collapse is the mark of a well-coached team.

Is moving a "Wojo Needle" akin to a "Buzz Woody" (to quote Wee Willie)?

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 05, 2021, 01:20:26 PM
I guess I don't get this...are you saying Cain and Theo aren't good, or just inexperienced?

Theo has appeared in 108 career games, starting 74.

Cain has appeared in 104 games, starting 16.  He averaged 17mpg as a freshman and 18mpg last year.  He has been a rotation guy for two of his three seasons at Marquette.

Koby, our fifth year senior, was a starter for two years at Utah State.  He's played in 102 career games and started 101.

We are not an inexperienced team, and I actually think we have quite a bit of talent.  And if it's the talent that's lacking, well, that's on Wojo.

I'm saying that being a 4th or 5th year senior doesn't mean anything.

We have exactly one guy on the roster who's averaged more than 21 minutes a game in a season (unless you count Jose's minutes at Gardner-Webb). Age helps. Experience helps. Age with experience matters the most.

An unbiased evaluator of our team's roster would say we are somewhere between a bubble team who makes the tourney and a team that just makes the NIT. If we finish towards the top end of that range, I think that means Wojo was able to get the most out of his roster and should be given a modest extension. If we finish towards the back of that, it means he got the minimum out of his roster and should be on the chopping block. If we finish above or below that range, I think he either needs a significant extension or to be fired out of a cannon. Knowing Wojo, he'll finish squarely in the middle leaving us in no-man's land again.

I'm fine with being in this range a season after graduating a consensus All-American and our second best player. Most teams that graduate that much talent end up in this range the following year. I know you don't like talk about "down years" but any unbiased observer could have told you that MU was heading into a down year this season. If a down year means an NCAAT appearance, we're on the right track.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 05, 2021, 10:22:51 AM
First five is a guy who's played 25 collegiate games, a guy who's in his second year with the program, a guy who's never been a regular starter, a rookie, and a foul prone big.

Off the bench is a rookie, a sophomore PG, and a walking injury.

What kind of results are you expecting with "this team"?

Your description describes many NCAA tournament teams.  Wojo has talent on this team.  Some of the best talent may be young but here is a good mix of veterans.  Finishing under .500 in a down Big East year where we are only predicted to get four teams in the tournament as of now would be a negative in my opinion.  More of the same mediocrity.  I want to see evidence that Wojo can coach this team up.  I have not seen that for previous teams.  I want evidence that he is getting better as a coach.  An under .500 record with our talent would not convince me he is the right guy.

I am a projo right now. I want this to work because he runs the program with class and I like his recruiting to date.  But now I want evidence he can coach.  If he can't get this team to a 500 conference record and an NCAA bid it will be a mark in the negative column for me with several other negatives already in it. 

I understand why someone would feel otherwise. 

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on January 05, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
Your description describes many NCAA tournament teams.  Wojo has talent on this team.  Some of the best talent may be young but here is a good mix of veterans.  Finishing under .500 in a down Big East year where we are only predicted to get four teams in the tournament as of now would be a negative in my opinion.  More of the same mediocrity.  I want to see evidence that Wojo can coach this team up.  I have not seen that for previous teams.  I want evidence that he is getting better as a coach.  An under .500 record with our talent would not convince me he is the right guy.

I am a projo right now. I want this to work because he runs the program with class and I like his recruiting to date.  But now I want evidence he can coach.  If he can't get this team to a 500 conference record and an NCAA bid it will be a mark in the negative column for me with several other negatives already in it. 

I understand why someone would feel otherwise. 

I wonder about the rankings, without much non-conference play are the rankings justified with so many teams from just the power conferences?

Big Ten   10
ACC   9
SEC   6
Big 12   6
Big East   5
Pac-12   4
American   2
Mountain West   2
Atlantic 10   2

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 05, 2021, 10:22:51 AM
First five is a guy who's played 25 collegiate games, a guy who's in his second year with the program, a guy who's never been a regular starter, a rookie, and a foul prone big.

Off the bench is a rookie, a sophomore PG, and a walking injury.

What kind of results are you expecting with "this team"?

Gee, Lanche, the team you describe sounds awful. Who are they and who put them together?

I'd add an option .. "3 years of top 5 BE finishes, plus 3 NCAA appearances, 2 years with at least 1 NCAAT win" will move my needle on Wojo.  Yeah, my bar is high after 7 years of failure.

At this point, one season with some success at the end is .. just a fluke.

I don't think that (3 seasons) will happen, and I don't want to wait 3 years for it to not happen to realize a wasted decade of MUBB .. which is where it's heading.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on January 05, 2021, 07:27:31 AM
A sub .500 conference record with this team would turn me into a nojo (the needle would go from middle toward a solid negative direction).

I picked bottom three finish. There is no way this roster should finish behind Gtown, Butler, DePaul, or St. John's. We should be ahead of PC too.

Now, unless Nate Oats openly says he wants the job, anything else than the above would be enough for me to keep Wojo.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on January 05, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
Your description describes many NCAA tournament teams.  Wojo has talent on this team.  Some of the best talent may be young but here is a good mix of veterans.  Finishing under .500 in a down Big East year where we are only predicted to get four teams in the tournament as of now would be a negative in my opinion.  More of the same mediocrity.  I want to see evidence that Wojo can coach this team up.  I have not seen that for previous teams.  I want evidence that he is getting better as a coach.  An under .500 record with our talent would not convince me he is the right guy.

I am a projo right now. I want this to work because he runs the program with class and I like his recruiting to date.  But now I want evidence he can coach.  If he can't get this team to a 500 conference record and an NCAA bid it will be a mark in the negative column for me with several other negatives already in it. 

I understand why someone would feel otherwise.

Don't agree with "many" Tournament teams having this makeup but it's clear a bubble team could have this makeup.

I asked on results because most everyone writes in generalities about Wojo and not the actual team. The way this squad is constructed screamed eight to 11 wins this season and nothing to this point has changed that outlook.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 05, 2021, 04:10:18 PM
Gee, Lanche, the team you describe sounds awful. Who are they and who put them together?

I don't think that team sounds awful.

Some needles may have moved tonight.

Quote from: NCMUFan on January 05, 2021, 10:40:17 PM
Some needles may have moved tonight.

Needle moved for me. In the Nojo camp now.

It's really hard to see how anyone can still think this is the guy for the long term.

At this point the only real conversations are what is the strategy to get him gone and who can we bring in.

Scholl also needs the ax for getting us into a contract that is too expensive to get out of at the end of this year.

I really thought we had turned the corner as of February 23rd 2018-2019. But, other than pulling lighting out of the hat a few odd times, the program has been a dumpster fire since that date.

Since then

11-19 against conference foes (.366 win pct)
25-24 overall

With rosters entirely of his own making. With a 1st team All-American for the bulk of those games.

Brutal.

No.
The team looked tired, they had tired legs.
A lot of standing around and watching.
Also some obvious freshman mistakes which will be corrected.
They are a work in progress.
The best is yet to come.
Can the double teaming be corrected in game?
Finding the open man needs to be worked on.
It is two steps forward, one step back.

Quote from: NCMUFan on January 05, 2021, 10:40:17 PM
Some needles may have moved tonight.

Mine did. Went from 3/4 in the Projo camp to about 7/8ths in the Nojo camp.

I fear he has lost this team.

I remember earlier this year when this team could not handle the press, it has been corrected.
I remember when this tean had problems inbounding the ball, it has been corrected.
Now we have freshman making freshman mistakes, a few defensive bad habits and tired legs.
These and a few other shortcomings will be corrected.
The best is yet to come.
There will be time to change coaches, now is not the time.

BTW, how is Buzz doing with all his Texas connections and metric management?    Mr. analytics has been struggling for 7 years.  Perhaps its not in the numbers after all. 

Everyone tries to portray me as a ProJo.   Honestly, my needle on Wojo is where it has always been.     Looking back on my posts from when he was hired, I expressed concern that he would ever grow out of his Duke roots, as winning at MU and in the Big East is different.    I suspended my skepticism as it turned out he landed a number of good recruits.    I said that I wasn't thrilled, but I could see the foundation he was building, could see the road map.     Those were the early years.   
   I have never thought he was a great game coach.    I have compared him multiple times to Crean without Wade and I do not consider that a compliment.    Well, he is also Crean without the used car salesman vibe, which is a point in Wojo's favor.  I recently started a thread about the hole in Wojo's recruiting, the lack of switchables, and that was exposed again last night.    Old Herm had a phrase in recruiting, 'pogo sticks'.    MU doesn't have them.   
   I broke with Wojo when the letter story came out.   If it was true, then he made the worst decision of his tenure by allowing those two to stay on his team.   And if it were true, it was better that they left.   But, because he doesn't recruit the way Buzz did, he didn't have back up plans and couldn't just dial up and get a couple of JUCO's.   
  So, I look back at my initial concerns and realize that I was probably right then.    He really hasn't grown past the Duke roots.   But, and this is the big one, it really doesn't matter what I think.    I try to see the big picture, particularly from the university's standpoint.    Wanting a clean program.   Wanting to stay off the front pages for negative reasons.    In a financial situation that would make it difficult to buy him out.      I get it all.    And I firmly believe that Wojo is not going anywhere anytime soon.   

But that doesn't mean I think he is a great coach.   I never have.    I just choose to not rake him over the coals for the Kennedy assassination.     

Killings for Head Coach

Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2021, 07:35:25 AM
Everyone tries to portray me as a ProJo.   Honestly, my needle on Wojo is where it has always been.     Looking back on my posts from when he was hired, I expressed concern that he would ever grow out of his Duke roots, as winning at MU and in the Big East is different.    I suspended my skepticism as it turned out he landed a number of good recruits.    I said that I wasn't thrilled, but I could see the foundation he was building, could see the road map.     Those were the early years.   
   I have never thought he was a great game coach.    I have compared him multiple times to Crean without Wade and I do not consider that a compliment.    Well, he is also Crean without the used car salesman vibe, which is a point in Wojo's favor.  I recently started a thread about the hole in Wojo's recruiting, the lack of switchables, and that was exposed again last night.    Old Herm had a phrase in recruiting, 'pogo sticks'.    MU doesn't have them.   
   I broke with Wojo when the letter story came out.   If it was true, then he made the worst decision of his tenure by allowing those two to stay on his team.   And if it were true, it was better that they left.   But, because he doesn't recruit the way Buzz did, he didn't have back up plans and couldn't just dial up and get a couple of JUCO's.   
  So, I look back at my initial concerns and realize that I was probably right then.    He really hasn't grown past the Duke roots.   But, and this is the big one, it really doesn't matter what I think.    I try to see the big picture, particularly from the university's standpoint.    Wanting a clean program.   Wanting to stay off the front pages for negative reasons.    In a financial situation that would make it difficult to buy him out.      I get it all.    And I firmly believe that Wojo is not going anywhere anytime soon.   

But that doesn't mean I think he is a great coach.   I never have.    I just choose to not rake him over the coals for the Kennedy assassination.     

Spoken like a true Wojo homer

Thanks for the laugh, Willie.

Quote from: Trump Loves The Big East on January 06, 2021, 07:49:43 AM
Killings for Head Coach

The only way I could see this happening is if they got rid of Wojo mid-season and gave Killings the rest of the year to see if he could right the ship, sort of like a Greg Gard situation.  Short of that, I say burn it all to the ground and start from scratch before it's too late.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 06, 2021, 09:42:18 AM
The only way I could see this happening is if they got rid of Wojo mid-season and gave Killings the rest of the year to see if he could right the ship, sort of like a Greg Gard situation.  Short of that, I say burn it all to the ground and start from scratch before it's too late.

Wondering if it is not already too late.

What is the most interesting thought to me long-term about the program is that Bill Scholl did not hire Wojo.  Scholl was hired after Wojo was in 2014.  It was Cords and the BOT that oversaw the hiring of Wojo.  I'd be curious what a true head coaching search under Scholl would look like, if it ever came to be.  He did hire James Whitford at Ball State, which is uninspiring to say the least, but Ball State is not Marquette.  Scholl's other hires at Marquette have been very strong IMO, especially Carolyn Kieger and Megan Duffy for the women's side. 

I doubt Doc will last the full year in Philly, especially if they trade for Harden.  As soon as Doc tries to hold Harden accountable for anything, he'll be out.  Which means he'd be available. His availability would move my Wojo needle to "don't let the door hit you on the way out".

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 05, 2021, 07:33:12 PM
Now, unless Nate Oats openly says he wants the job, anything else than the above would be enough for me to keep Wojo.

What would the temperature be on Stan Johnson being in play, whether after this year or in a couple, ala what Wisconsin football did with Chryst. Let him leave to get feet wet as HC and come back next opportunity?

That is what Duke did with Wojo.

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 06, 2021, 10:27:05 AM
What would the temperature be on Stan Johnson being in play, whether after this year or in a couple, ala what Wisconsin football did with Chryst. Let him leave to get feet wet as HC and come back next opportunity?

The issues with this team in terms of defense, turnovers, and rotations were all present when Stan was here. If he couldn't fix them when he was on staff, why would we expect him to be able to change them now?

I'm cool with staying in the family when everyone is content with the family's success. But so far, the evidence is that Stan can get guys but the jury is out on if he can coach. Which is the same question we have about Wojo after 6+ years.

Quote from: vogue65 on January 06, 2021, 06:38:38 AM
I remember earlier this year when this team could not handle the press, it has been corrected.
I remember when this tean had problems inbounding the ball, it has been corrected.
Now we have freshman making freshman mistakes, a few defensive bad habits and tired legs.
These and a few other shortcomings will be corrected.
The best is yet to come.
There will be time to change coaches, now is not the time.

BTW, how is Buzz doing with all his Texas connections and metric management?    Mr. analytics has been struggling for 7 years.  Perhaps its not in the numbers after all.

Tired legs? Really though? 2 games in 13 days and they have tired legs?  You might have to dig deeper into your book of excuses to replace that one. Maybe ask Tower for help.

Wojo has been at or within a game of .500 in conference in 4 of his 6 seasons. One season at 12-6 and another at 4-14. His ceiling is around the 12-6 mark and the floor is 4-14. Every other season is bang average.

The only thing that will change my mind is two straight seasons with a conference record well above 500. I will go on record saying there is a zero percent chance of that happening. The longer we stick with him, the less appealing our job becomes to others.

vogue

Speaking of Texas, how is Shaka doing down there this year?

Quote from: Goose on January 06, 2021, 11:20:23 AM
vogue

Speaking of Texas, how is Shaka doing down there this year?

Pretty similarly to how Wojo was doing 2 years ago at this point in the season.

BLM

Don't you have a protest to attend?

The one in Washington?

Overall, I've been a So no supporter because of his recruiting. But I've been frustrated by his poor game coaching. After watching his post game press conference, he admitted being clueless how to coach during the UConn game in the second half. He said "the responsibility for the loss falls on him and that he has to get better."  After seven years, I think we all know that he's a nice guy and Good recruiter but he just can't coach.

Quote from: Goose on January 06, 2021, 12:19:28 PM
BLM

Don't you have a protest to attend?

Sorry I made you uncomfortable.

Quote from: vogue65 on January 06, 2021, 06:38:38 AM
I remember earlier this year when this team could not handle the press, it has been corrected.
I remember when this tean had problems inbounding the ball, it has been corrected.
Now we have freshman making freshman mistakes, a few defensive bad habits and tired legs.
These and a few other shortcomings will be corrected.
The best is yet to come.
There will be time to change coaches, now is not the time.

BTW, how is Buzz doing with all his Texas connections and metric management?    Mr. analytics has been struggling for 7 years.  Perhaps its not in the numbers after all.

Lists a number of problems and says "it has been corrected".  About a team who has lost 4 of 5, just blew an 18 point lead at home, and would have lost 5 of 5 if not for a monumental comeback against the likely worst team in the conference. I shudder at what they would look like if all these shortcomings hadn't been corrected.  2 games in 2 weeks and they have tired legs  ::)

As for your Buzz dig,  he took a VT program who hadn't been to the NCAA in 8 years and had 3 straight losing seasons and took them to 3 straight NCAAs and their first S16 in 50 years.  Now he's at A&M, they are 6-2. He brought in 2 top 100 guys last year and has a top 25 signing for next year, their first 5 star recruit since DeAndre Jordan 15 years ago.

You can defend Wojo and the job you think he's doing and that Buzz isn't coming back, we should move on, fair. But don't act like Buzz has been "struggling" or use him as a positive comp for Wojo, cause that is patently false.  He's an infinitely better coach, for all his flaws, and he's succeeding like he does.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 06, 2021, 12:44:20 PM
Overall, I've been a So no supporter because of his recruiting. But I've been frustrated by his poor game coaching. After watching his post game press conference, he admitted being clueless how to coach during the UConn game in the second half. He said "the responsibility for the loss falls on him and that he has to get better."  After seven years, I think we all know that he's a nice guy and Good recruiter but he just can't coach.

Which is it?  He is a good recruiter or he can't coach. 
If he is a good recruiter then why did they miss so many shots?
If he can't coach then why does he win some games with inferior talent?
O.K., then he can coach, but he recruits inferior talent making him a poor recruiter.
He may be a good recruiter and a good coach or a poor recruiter and a poor coach.
When you guys figure this out let me know.

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 06, 2021, 10:27:05 AM
What would the temperature be on Stan Johnson being in play, whether after this year or in a couple, ala what Wisconsin football did with Chryst. Let him leave to get feet wet as HC and come back next opportunity?

The temperature would be very high.

Quote from: JWags85 on January 06, 2021, 01:24:24 PM
Lists a number of problems and says "it has been corrected".  About a team who has lost 4 of 5, just blew an 18 point lead at home, and would have lost 5 of 5 if not for a monumental comeback against the likely worst team in the conference. I shudder at what they would look like if all these shortcomings hadn't been corrected.  2 games in 2 weeks and they have tired legs  ::)

As for your Buzz dig,  he took a VT program who hadn't been to the NCAA in 8 years and had 3 straight losing seasons and took them to 3 straight NCAAs and their first S16 in 50 years.  Now he's at A&M, they are 6-2. He brought in 2 top 100 guys last year and has a top 25 signing for next year, their first 5 star recruit since DeAndre Jordan 15 years ago.

You can defend Wojo and the job you think he's doing and that Buzz isn't coming back, we should move on, fair. But don't act like Buzz has been "struggling" or use him as a positive comp for Wojo, cause that is patently false.  He's an infinitely better coach, for all his flaws, and he's succeeding like he does.

I'm a big Buzz fan, and a very poor communicator.

There is no comp. for Wojo, that's the problem.

I don't defend Wojo, I favor patience.

Sometimes you just don't match up well with another team.
I don't know why they had no legs the other night, but they didn't.
Yes, many shortcomings have bern corrected,  there is more work to be done.
There, is that better?

Quote from: vogue65 on January 06, 2021, 01:29:05 PM
Which is it?  He is a good recruiter or he can't coach. 
If he is a good recruiter then why did they miss so many shots?
If he can't coach then why does he win some games with inferior talent?
O.K., then he can coach, but he recruits inferior talent making him a poor recruiter.
He may be a good recruiter and a good coach or a poor recruiter and a poor coach.
When you guys figure this out let me know.

Vogue:
You seem confused. My take is that Wojo is an above average recruiter. But he's a below average coach. He seems to lack teaching skills, especially during game. Many times when the tv cameras would zoom in on Marquette huddles So no would be barking at the players in two or three word grunts. Secondly, his game coaching to recognize changes made by opponents and make counter changes is lacking. And he seems clueless how to stop opponents' momentum by changing the tempo (like Al did and even Buzz) to win games. He doesn't know how to help the team win. The bottom line is that he's a "B" recruiter and a "D" coach.  After seven years this is as good as it gets with Wojo.

Quote from: vogue65 on January 06, 2021, 06:18:37 AM
No.
The team looked tired, they had tired legs.
A lot of standing around and watching.
Also some obvious freshman mistakes which will be corrected.
They are a work in progress.
The best is yet to come.
Can the double teaming be corrected in game?
Finding the open man needs to be worked on.
It is two steps forward, one step back.

Spoken like a true Wojo sycophant

Quote from: vogue65 on January 06, 2021, 01:47:38 PM
I'm a big Buzz fan, and a very poor communicator.

There is no comp. for Wojo, that's the problem.

I don't defend Wojo, I favor patience.

Sometimes you just don't match up well with another team.
I don't know why they had no legs the other night, but they didn't.
Yes, many shortcomings have bern corrected,  there is more work to be done.
There, is that better?

You're a big Buzz fan but yet you blatantly misrepresented his time post-MU.  That wasn't poor communication, unless you were implying he was struggling and it's "not in the numbers" in some way other than his day job.

And there are plenty of comps for Wojo. You keep talking about this nebulous patience idea yet you have no verifiable metrics. Just that "things are corrected" and "they will get better".  I respect different viewpoints about his performance as a coach, but you just seem to play bingo with every generic excuse for poor team performance.

"Tired legs"
"Bad matchup"
"Coaches don't make the shots"

Quote from: Goose on January 06, 2021, 12:19:28 PM
BLM

Don't you have a protest to attend?

this didn't age well.

Regarding Wojo - shouldn't a large part of the collective ire be focussed on the BOT/MU exec wing? Current pandemic induced financial situation aside, they are the ones that set the criteria for what "success" is for both the program and the coach. Are their expectations for W's lower than the average Scoop fan or are they not super skilled at managing their staff to their expectations? If it's the former I'm actually somewhat OK with what's happening (i.e. I trust that they know more about what's good for the total institution than I do), if it's the latter I'm more displeased with them than Wojo

**that concludes my "not really answering the question" point of view**

Quote from: 1SE on January 06, 2021, 05:56:07 AM
Scholl also needs the ax for getting us into a contract that is too expensive to get out of at the end of this year.

I don't believe for a second that MU can not buy him out.

Dead man walking.

Quote from: tower912 on January 06, 2021, 07:35:25 AM
Everyone tries to portray me as a ProJo.   Honestly, my needle on Wojo is where it has always been.     Looking back on my posts from when he was hired, I expressed concern that he would ever grow out of his Duke roots, as winning at MU and in the Big East is different.    I suspended my skepticism as it turned out he landed a number of good recruits.    I said that I wasn't thrilled, but I could see the foundation he was building, could see the road map.     Those were the early years.   
   I have never thought he was a great game coach.    I have compared him multiple times to Crean without Wade and I do not consider that a compliment.    Well, he is also Crean without the used car salesman vibe, which is a point in Wojo's favor.  I recently started a thread about the hole in Wojo's recruiting, the lack of switchables, and that was exposed again last night.    Old Herm had a phrase in recruiting, 'pogo sticks'.    MU doesn't have them.   
   I broke with Wojo when the letter story came out.   If it was true, then he made the worst decision of his tenure by allowing those two to stay on his team.   And if it were true, it was better that they left.   But, because he doesn't recruit the way Buzz did, he didn't have back up plans and couldn't just dial up and get a couple of JUCO's.   
  So, I look back at my initial concerns and realize that I was probably right then.    He really hasn't grown past the Duke roots.   But, and this is the big one, it really doesn't matter what I think.    I try to see the big picture, particularly from the university's standpoint.    Wanting a clean program.   Wanting to stay off the front pages for negative reasons.    In a financial situation that would make it difficult to buy him out.      I get it all.    And I firmly believe that Wojo is not going anywhere anytime soon.   

But that doesn't mean I think he is a great coach.   I never have.    I just choose to not rake him over the coals for the Kennedy assassination.     

There's a line I really like from the pilot episode of Deadwood, where Seth Bullock says to a rabble rouser, "You called the law in, Sampson.  You don't get to call it off now that you're liquored up and popular on payday."

And I think that quote applies to your post pretty well.  You've been one of Wojo's biggest supporters on this board for years.  You've rationalized nearly every bad move he's made, every bad loss we've had.  You'll write entire recaps like you did last night without once mentioning his poor coaching.  And now that there's a large enough sample size of his work, now that his failures as a coach are obvious beyond the shadow of a doubt, you're trying to backtrack to...save face on here, I guess?  That's okay.  I can think of one other poster who will take a similarly ambivalent stance when Wojo finally gets canned, so you're not alone in this behavior.

It's perfectly fine to admit you were wrong, and that you're now off the Wojo bandwagon.  Plenty of people have said, "I was Projo, but after (insert bad game here) I'm in the Nojo camp."  I respect them for that, and lord knows there's plenty of room on the Nojo bandwagon.  Heck, if Wojo somehow turned into Jay Wright and won two national championships in the next three years, I'd happily admit I was wrong.  What I won't do is come out and say something like, "Everybody portrays me as Nojo, but I never said I *didn't* support him.  I often said his coaching was garbage and that he's a gut maggot with no guts, but I always supported him during our games."

And finally, I think the "Crean without Wade" comparison is BS, and always have.  It's totally meaningless.  I don't like Crean, but he accomplished far more in his time at MU than Wojo has, and in a shorter period.  Crean *did* get us Wade, he delivered when he had him and got us a FF, and he revived a moribund program in the process.  If you want to call him Crean without Wade, you can just say, "He's a bad coach with no personality.  Sort of like Crean without the actual success that Crean had."

Bottom line, it's okay to admit you were wrong about Wojo, and it's fine to jump from Projo to Nojo.  But to try and act like you never supported him when you so obviously did just to, I don't know, save face around here so you can still do your game recaps, is a little unnecessary. 

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 06, 2021, 05:32:58 PM
There's a line I really like from the pilot episode of Deadwood, where Seth Bullock says to a rabble rouser, "You called the law in, Sampson.  You don't get to call it off now that you're liquored up and popular on payday."

And I think that quote applies to your post pretty well.  You've been one of Wojo's biggest supporters on this board for years.  You've rationalized nearly every bad move he's made, every bad loss we've had.  You'll write entire recaps like you did last night without once mentioning his poor coaching.  And now that there's a large enough sample size of his work, now that his failures as a coach are obvious beyond the shadow of a doubt, you're trying to backtrack to...save face on here, I guess?  That's okay.  I can think of one other poster who will take a similarly ambivalent stance when Wojo finally gets canned, so you're not alone in this behavior.

It's perfectly fine to admit you were wrong, and that you're now off the Wojo bandwagon.  Plenty of people have said, "I was Projo, but after (insert bad game here) I'm in the Nojo camp."  I respect them for that, and lord knows there's plenty of room on the Nojo bandwagon.  Heck, if Wojo somehow turned into Jay Wright and won two national championships in the next three years, I'd happily admit I was wrong.  What I won't do is come out and say something like, "Everybody portrays me as Nojo, but I never said I *didn't* support him.  I often said his coaching was garbage and that he's a gut maggot with no guts, but I always supported him during our games."

And finally, I think the "Crean without Wade" comparison is BS, and always have.  It's totally meaningless.  I don't like Crean, but he accomplished far more in his time at MU than Wojo has, and in a shorter period.  Crean *did* get us Wade, he delivered when he had him and got us a FF, and he revived a moribund program in the process.  If you want to call him Crean without Wade, you can just say, "He's a bad coach with no personality.  Sort of like Crean without the actual success that Crean had."

Bottom line, it's okay to admit you were wrong about Wojo, and it's fine to jump from Projo to Nojo.  But to try and act like you never supported him when you so obviously did just to, I don't know, save face around here so you can still do your game recaps, is a little unnecessary.

As someone who genuinely likes tower as a person, this may be a truth bomb for basketball.

Quote from: Goose on January 06, 2021, 12:19:28 PM
BLM

Don't you have a protest to attend?

Welp.  This aged about as poorly as anything on the internet ever has.  What an embarrassing day for the anti-BLM-protests.  We can protest for equality, social justice, and ending racism, or we can protest because the guy whose feet we kiss lost an election.

Just gonna say, I refuse to accept the titles projo and nojo, and if people want to take one of those titles on themselves, ok, fine.  But if you gonna' label someone else, well, that's not quite how it works. 

I myself, always want Marquette to succeed.  I was willing to give Wojo a chance - and even for this year.  I'll always cheer on his teams and players.

However unless there's miraculous improvement, I don't think he's done enough.  Nonetheless, little chance any change happiness before the end of the 2021-2022 season, so Go Marquette!

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 06, 2021, 05:32:58 PM
There's a line I really like from the pilot episode of Deadwood, where Seth Bullock says to a rabble rouser, "You called the law in, Sampson.  You don't get to call it off now that you're liquored up and popular on payday."

And I think that quote applies to your post pretty well.  You've been one of Wojo's biggest supporters on this board for years.  You've rationalized nearly every bad move he's made, every bad loss we've had.  You'll write entire recaps like you did last night without once mentioning his poor coaching.  And now that there's a large enough sample size of his work, now that his failures as a coach are obvious beyond the shadow of a doubt, you're trying to backtrack to...save face on here, I guess?  That's okay.  I can think of one other poster who will take a similarly ambivalent stance when Wojo finally gets canned, so you're not alone in this behavior.

It's perfectly fine to admit you were wrong, and that you're now off the Wojo bandwagon.  Plenty of people have said, "I was Projo, but after (insert bad game here) I'm in the Nojo camp."  I respect them for that, and lord knows there's plenty of room on the Nojo bandwagon.  Heck, if Wojo somehow turned into Jay Wright and won two national championships in the next three years, I'd happily admit I was wrong.  What I won't do is come out and say something like, "Everybody portrays me as Nojo, but I never said I *didn't* support him.  I often said his coaching was garbage and that he's a gut maggot with no guts, but I always supported him during our games."

And finally, I think the "Crean without Wade" comparison is BS, and always have.  It's totally meaningless.  I don't like Crean, but he accomplished far more in his time at MU than Wojo has, and in a shorter period.  Crean *did* get us Wade, he delivered when he had him and got us a FF, and he revived a moribund program in the process.  If you want to call him Crean without Wade, you can just say, "He's a bad coach with no personality.  Sort of like Crean without the actual success that Crean had."

Bottom line, it's okay to admit you were wrong about Wojo, and it's fine to jump from Projo to Nojo.  But to try and act like you never supported him when you so obviously did just to, I don't know, save face around here so you can still do your game recaps, is a little unnecessary.

This is an inconvenient truth for Tower and echoes how he comes off in his posts.

Yawn.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 06, 2021, 06:25:09 PM
Just gonna say, I refuse to accept the titles projo and nojo, and if people want to take one of those titles on themselves, ok, fine.  But if you gonna' label someone else, well, that's not quite how it works. 

I myself, always want Marquette to succeed.  I was willing to give Wojo a chance - and even for this year.  I'll always cheer on his teams and players.

However unless there's miraculous improvement, I don't think he's done enough.  Nonetheless, little chance any change happiness before the end of the 2021-2022 season, so Go Marquette!

So you're a so-sojo then?

Quote from: 1SE on January 07, 2021, 07:13:12 AM
So you're a so-sojo then?

;D

How is Wojo doing compared to some of his peers? We mention Villanova as a lofty program goal. Nova Nation aside, what else would be a good sign of progress? What jumps out?

Greg McDermott has Creighton positioned for its 5th straight top 3 league finish.

Kevin Willard completed Seton Hall's 5th straight top 3 league finish this past season.

A Wojo/MU run of 5 straight top 3 league finishes would be nice. (He has 2 in six seasons, likely seven seasons)

A few others left for Power 5 leagues. (Mack went 3 for 5, Holtmann went 2 for 3 in this top 3 league finish discussion before moving on)

Quote from: shoothoops on January 07, 2021, 02:11:00 PM
How is Wojo doing compared to some of his peers? We mention Villanova as a lofty program goal. Nova Nation aside, what else would be a good sign of progress? What jumps out?

Greg McDermott has Creighton positioned for its 5th straight top 3 league finish.

Kevin Willard completed Seton Hall's 5th straight top 3 league finish this past season.

A Wojo/MU run of 5 straight top 3 league finishes would be nice. (He has 2 in six seasons, likely seven seasons)

A few others left for Power 5 leagues. (Mack went 3 for 5, Holtmann went 2 for 3 in this top 3 league finish discussion before moving on)

According to some, he needs at least 10 season to get his feet wet.

Quote from: panda on January 07, 2021, 02:14:30 PM
According to some, he needs at least 10 season to get his feet wet.

Willard struggled for five seasons at Seton Hall before going top 3 in the league each of the next five.

Others did it sooner or left for Power 5 while on a good path.

Quote from: shoothoops on January 07, 2021, 02:22:53 PM
Willard struggled for five seasons at Seton Hall before going top 3 in the league each of the next five.

Others did it sooner or left for Power 5 while on a good path.

The overall program and expectations at Seton Hall when Willard took over there are not comparable to what they were at Marquette when Wojo became our head coach.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 07, 2021, 02:45:03 PM
The overall program and expectations at Seton Hall when Willard took over there are not comparable to what they were at Marquette when Wojo became our head coach.

I don't disagree with that.

Not that it matters much but Heard Marquette has one of the worst Win per Fan Attendance ratios in the Country since joining the New Big East. Guess we have high Fan Attendance,  prior to covid, with a relatively low amount of Wins in comparison. Is this true. Not Sure how but this should or has to change

Quote from: MarquetteMike1977 on January 07, 2021, 03:29:08 PM
Not that it matters much but Heard Marquette has one of the worst Win per Fan Attendance ratios in the Country since joining the New Big East. Guess we have high Fan Attendance,  prior to covid, with a relatively low amount of Wins in comparison. Is this true. Not Sure how but this should or has to change

Very concerning.

Quote from: MarquetteMike1977 on January 07, 2021, 03:29:08 PM
Win per Fan Attendance ratios

no way?  that feels like a social media troll.  that can't be a real stat.

Quote from: MarquetteMike1977 on January 07, 2021, 03:29:08 PM
Not that it matters much but Heard Marquette has one of the worst Win per Fan Attendance ratios in the Country since joining the New Big East. Guess we have high Fan Attendance,  prior to covid, with a relatively low amount of Wins in comparison. Is this true. Not Sure how but this should or has to change

It means we're not cheering loud enough because we're such bad fans and we should stop booing Wojo because we're such bad fans. Maybe as fans we need to look in the mirror and be better fans and maybe then the team on the floor would win more. Also fans' opinions have absolutely no effect on the teams performance or the direction of the program so why bother with any of it anyway?

I think I covered all the reasons.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 07, 2021, 02:45:03 PM
The overall program and expectations at Seton Hall when Willard took over there are not comparable to what they were at Marquette when Wojo became our head coach.

What are the overall program expectations at Marquette? Not your expectations, not my expectations, not Scoops expectations but what are the expectations placed on the program by the BOT/President/AD? I honestly don't know but those expectations are the important ones.

Quote from: naginiF on January 07, 2021, 04:41:58 PM
What are the overall program expectations at Marquette? Not your expectations, not my expectations, not Scoops expectations but what are the expectations placed on the program by the BOT/President/AD? I honestly don't know but those expectations are the important ones.

I hope they have higher expectations than Seton Hall did 10 years ago, but I am having doubts about that.

Quote from: Badgerhater on January 07, 2021, 05:09:51 PM
I hope they have higher expectations than Seton Hall did 10 years ago, but I am having doubts about that.

Agreed. But if they weren't happy with Buzz because of some of the things within the program that accompanied the success it points to them not valuing the deep runs as much or they have much more patience on when/if runs occur. If that is the case then some expectations here are set too high.

Quote from: naginiF on January 07, 2021, 06:56:08 PM
Agreed. But if they weren't happy with Buzz because of some of the things within the program that accompanied the success it points to them not valuing the deep runs as much or they have much more patience on when/if runs occur. If that is the case then some expectations here are set too high.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I think there were some changes to be made. If the response to the sexual assault allegations happened today, Buzz may have been fired. I think some of the academic restrictions was getting in front of the NCAA APR requirements.

Now, to implement those changes, I don't think either side handled it very well. I'm guessing it was a pretty toxic working environment at the end. I don't think Buzz tanked the last season at all, but I do think all that drama negatively impacted the team.

Quote from: naginiF on January 07, 2021, 06:56:08 PM
Agreed. But if they weren't happy with Buzz because of some of the things within the program that accompanied the success it points to them not valuing the deep runs as much or they have much more patience on when/if runs occur. If that is the case then some expectations here are set too high.

Nah.

I decide my own expectations for the program. I decide if those expectations match those that make head coaching decisions at MU. And, if my expectations are different, I decide how much or how little I support the program. The same goes for everyone else. Just because a certain group of people make basketball head coaching decisions, doesn't mean they are correct, or have the correct expectations etc...that is for every individual to decide for his or herself accordingly. Hopefully they match up. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Quote from: cheebs09 on January 07, 2021, 07:28:01 PM
I'm not sure I'd go that far. I think there were some changes to be made. If the response to the sexual assault allegations happened today, Buzz may have been fired. I think some of the academic restrictions was getting in front of the NCAA APR requirements.

Now, to implement those changes, I don't think either side handled it very well. I'm guessing it was a pretty toxic working environment at the end. I don't think Buzz tanked the last season at all, but I do think all that drama negatively impacted the team.

Fair

Quote from: shoothoops on January 07, 2021, 07:48:08 PM
Nah.

I decide my own expectations for the program. I decide if those expectations match those that make head coaching decisions at MU. And, if my expectations are different, I decide how much or how little I support the program. The same goes for everyone else. Just because a certain group of people make basketball head coaching decisions, doesn't mean they are correct, or have the correct expectations etc...that is for every individual to decide for his or herself accordingly. Hopefully they match up. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

I think we're in agreement but any rational college basketball fan that doesn't root for AZ, KU, OkSt, etc. balances their expectations with the realities of managing the entire institution and the many variables that go into that. We can all be MUGURU (RIP) and believe that success on the court should come before everything else and live in perpetual disappointment because that's not what MU is about. The last 18 -24 (arguably 48) months would indicate that those making the decision are OK with the performance. I realize that extensions and PR are mostly for appearances and that maybe/hopefully the gears of change are in motion but from what is known we should all probably strap in through next season regardless.

I agree, your support or lack there of, is

Quote from: naginiF on January 07, 2021, 08:57:19 PM
FairI think we're in agreement but any rational college basketball fan that doesn't root for AZ, KU, OkSt, etc. balances their expectations with the realities of managing the entire institution and the many variables that go into that. We can all be MUGURU (RIP) and believe that success on the court should come before everything else and live in perpetual disappointment because that's not what MU is about. The last 18 -24 (arguably 48) months would indicate that those making the decision are OK with the performance. I realize that extensions and PR are mostly for appearances and that maybe/hopefully the gears of change are in motion but from what is known we should all probably strap in through next season regardless.

I agree, your support or lack there of, is

Some might take a pass on strapping in. If MU struggles, misses the tourney etc...an additional segment of people may walk away with it, maybe donate less, maybe don't renew those tix, maybe less walk ups next year etc...and so on...I certainly understand pandemic dollars and decisions. But the people have the power. And few things have more power than apathy.

Quote from: Badgerhater on January 07, 2021, 05:09:51 PM
I hope they have higher expectations than Seton Hall did 10 years ago, but I am having doubts about that.

12 years ago Seton Hall was told by BE leaders to get their crap together in hoops (financial commitments particularly) or be left behind when the inevitable new BE formed. Willard also took over for a train wreck in Gonzalez. SH had not been to the NCAA tourney since 2006 (3 since 1994) and 1 NIT in that span 3 since 1999). MU....?

Quote from: shoothoops on January 07, 2021, 09:18:57 PM
Some might take a pass on strapping in. If MU struggles, misses the tourney etc...an additional segment of people may walk away with it, maybe donate less, maybe don't renew those tix, maybe less walk ups next year etc...and so on...I certainly understand pandemic dollars and decisions. But the people have the power. And few things have more power than apathy.

And if you fire Wojo and you have mass transfers out and left with a 20+ Games a year in losses, what is the apathy then.  Answer, huge!

The only way to offset it is to spend big for a high profile coach ($4+m). This is the last thing the BOT will do in this pandemic year.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 06, 2021, 04:59:20 PM
I don't believe for a second that MU can not buy him out.

Dead man walking.

Why? MU financials are not good at the moment. Actually, pretty bad. He is not getting fired.

Quote from: 79Warrior on January 08, 2021, 03:56:17 PM
Why? MU financials are not good at the moment. Actually, pretty bad. He is not getting fired.

Exactly.  We don't have the donor base to step up to buy him out and even if we did, the optics of the university doing that while laying off staff, cutting programs, and facing a $45 million deficit would be brutal:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/09/30/marquette-facing-deep-cuts-due-covid-19-lower-enrollment-outlook/3579205001/

Hey, if Harbaugh can get an extension at UM, pretty sure Woj can get one at MU, aina?

I was out on Wojo the moment Sam and Joey left, and the fact he handled it like a petulant child.
You don't lose a player or a person like Sam Hauser, who received as much PT as he could handle from Day 1 and who had a universal approval rating in the program/community, unless you're completely inept.  Which he is.

All he's done since then is completely collapse last season with the most decorated player in school history and a group of 3+ year program/collegiate (Koby) guys and blow game after game this season with a roster most people here can agree is more talented.

What we have to show for this is a few great regular season wins (Nova, Creighton, Wisco), a 2nd place finish in conference because we couldn't win 1 game in 2 weeks, no further than a Quarterfinal appearance in the Big East Tourney, and 2 NCAA games where we were competitive for a half before getting completely annihilated by 7 seed South Carolina and 12 seed Murray St.

We are becoming nationally irrelevant.  It'll end up being a decade since we last won a tourney game.  10 years!!  We're about a year or two away from becoming Wake Forest.  And our administration is too stupid (apparently hamstringing themselves with a contract they can't get out of) and a large portion of the fanbase too apathetic to truly want change.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  If we truly give a crap about this program, you'd throw the bag at John Belien and finally bring in a quality, proven coach.  No more half measures, no more flashy assistants.  Would be a perfect fit.  But they're pinching pennies and are fine with our complete mediocrity so long as our coach is a "good guy" and we're occasionally on the bubble.  What a fucking shame.

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 08, 2021, 07:55:31 PM
I was out on Wojo the moment Sam and Joey left, and the fact he handled it like a petulant child.
You don't lose a player or a person like Sam Hauser, who received as much PT as he could handle from Day 1 and who had a universal approval rating in the program/community, unless you're completely inept.  Which he is.

All he's done since then is completely collapse last season with the most decorated player in school history and a group of 3+ year program/collegiate (Koby) guys and blow game after game this season with a roster most people here can agree is more talented.

What we have to show for this is a few great regular season wins (Nova, Creighton, Wisco), a 2nd place finish in conference because we couldn't win 1 game in 2 weeks, no further than a Quarterfinal appearance in the Big East Tourney, and 2 NCAA games where we were competitive for a half before getting completely annihilated by 7 seed South Carolina and 12 seed Murray St.

We are becoming nationally irrelevant.  It'll end up being a decade since we last won a tourney game.  10 years!!  We're about a year or two away from becoming Wake Forest.  And our administration is too stupid (apparently hamstringing themselves with a contract they can't get out of) and a large portion of the fanbase too apathetic to truly want change.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  If we truly give a crap about this program, you'd throw the bag at John Belien and finally bring in a quality, proven coach.  No more half measures, no more flashy assistants.  Would be a perfect fit.  But they're pinching pennies and are fine with our complete mediocrity so long as our coach is a "good guy" and we're occasionally on the bubble.  What a unnatural carnal knowledgeing shame.

Yeah. The administration is incompetent because they didn't prepare for a pandemic that would kill them financially.

MU has never been able to bring in a coach the caliber of John Belien. Proven high level coaches aren't lining up to come to Marquette. They weren't after Crean. They weren't after Buzz. They won't be after Wojo.

Quote from: BLM on January 08, 2021, 08:02:36 PM
Yeah. The administration is incompetent because they didn't prepare for a pandemic that would kill them financially.

MU has never been able to bring in a coach the caliber of John Belien. Proven high level coaches aren't lining up to come to Marquette. They weren't after Crean. They weren't after Buzz. They won't be after Wojo.

Pandemic or not - giving Wojo a contract where you have to eat a significant amount of money / years if he needs to go is a mistake.

You can say it's impossible to recruit without a 4 year contract, which may be true, but I don't think the University was obligated to guarantee the thing to the point where a buyout costs millions.

All that being said - it's possible the buyout is insignificant and the admin is simply happy with what they see. We don't know for sure. But Lovell and Scholl are straight-laced weenies so I wouldn't put it past them.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 08, 2021, 08:17:09 PM
Pandemic or not - giving Wojo a contract where you have to eat a significant amount of money / years if he needs to go is a mistake.

You can say it's impossible to recruit without a 4 year contract, which may be true, but I don't think the University was obligated to guarantee the thing to the point where a buyout costs millions.

All that being said - it's possible the buyout is insignificant and the admin is simply happy with what they see. We don't know for sure. But Lovell and Scholl are straight-laced weenies so I wouldn't put it past them.

They are not paying their basketball coach more than $2.5M. Pandemic or not. Big buyout or not. And John Belien is not coaching Marquette for less than $2.5M. So if Scholl and Lovell are tight laced weenies or the administration is incompetent because they can't get John Belien to coach Marquette then they're those things.

Quote from: BLM on January 06, 2021, 06:09:14 PM
Welp.  This aged about as poorly as anything on the internet ever has.  What an embarrassing day for the anti-BLM-protests.  We can protest for equality, social justice, and ending racism, or we can protest because the guy whose feet we kiss lost an election.

The coalition continues to build, Blue Lives Matter can now join BLM with common cause.
Great that Antifa did not go for the bait.
The end of the Tea Party era, the dawn has come....

Don't no wear y'all get dis Belien chitfrom, butt he ain't cummin' heer, know way, no how, hey?

Hey, we agree.   Woot.

Hire Beilein and in about 2 years, we're top 2-3 conference annually and making NCAA runs. 

Sadly, I don't see it happening either because Lovell and Scholl don't seem  capable of such a bold move.  And their poor leadership.

When did everyone start hating Lovell and Scholl? And why? Especially Scholl

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 09, 2021, 08:18:53 AM
Hire Beilein and in about 2 years, we're top 2-3 conference annually and making NCAA runs. 

Sadly, I don't see it happening either because Lovell and Scholl don't seem  capable of such a bold move.  And their poor leadership.

Again. MU has not hired a proven coach to run its program once in my lifetime. Those guys aren't lining up to coach Marquette basketball. Belien will have his pick of programs to run if he even wants to do that. And he'll make double what MU can pay a coach.

But yeah. Poor leadership and no balls by the administration is the only thing keeping MU from hiring John Belien. Lol.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 09, 2021, 08:50:03 AM
When did everyone start hating Lovell and Scholl? And why? Especially Scholl

I think it's the thought that they are pleased with the state of the program and would be fine with less wins if it meant no off the court issues. The idea that Wojo's seat is ice cold. I don't know if it's true, but it doesn't sound like they are putting too much heat on Wojo based on what some people in the know say.

ETA: Not that I'm advocating we hire someone that would break the rules to get more wins. More that right now it seems like the best thing about Wojo as a coach is that he runs a clean program and is a nice guy.

Quote from: BLM on January 09, 2021, 08:51:40 AM
Again. MU has not hired a proven coach to run its program once in my lifetime. Those guys aren't lining up to coach Marquette basketball. Belien will have his pick of programs to run if he even wants to do that. And he'll make double what MU can pay a coach.

But yeah. Poor leadership and no balls by the administration is the only thing keeping MU from hiring John Belien. Lol.

He will have his pick of programs, yes. MU doesn't have to take a back seat however to anyone in terms of tradition, fan support, investment in men's basketball, conference, etc. 

It would come down to dollars of course.  And I disagree MU couldn't make that work too. Imagine telling your sugar daddy donors we can get Beilein.  They'd be licking their chops at bringing him on board.

If you have an opening, I think it's worth making the call, if only to gauge interest. But bear in mind Beilein may want a Dick Bennett situation to rehab his son Patrick's reputation and possibly set him up to take over in 5-10 years. And I think it's highly unlikely he would end up here. Worth the call, but one I don't think would amount to much.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2021, 09:23:41 AM
If you have an opening, I think it's worth making the call, if only to gauge interest. But bear in mind Beilein may want a Dick Bennett situation to rehab his son Patrick's reputation and possibly set him up to take over in 5-10 years. And I think it's highly unlikely he would end up here. Worth the call, but one I don't think would amount to much.

I think our program is such a call to Beilein and he would have interest immediately. It wouldn't take selling our program to him.  We have so much to sell that speaks for itself.

And if you're the one proactive and making that call first, you're instantly up on everyone else who may be thinking about him too.

So then it's about money from there. And we're not crying poor or lacking in sugar daddy's for the program. 

As unbelievable as it may be, some people don't make all their career decisions based on money.

I wear one pair of shoes at a time, I drive one car at a time, I eat oatmeal for breakfast.  ( examples of reality and values)

I am a Buzz fan, in my view his ambition has been to get back to Texas and make a lot of money, fine, that's him.  (this is on subject, an aside, a comment we can identify with, we may disagree, but Buzz should be relatable to most of us)

I am a pretty good judge of character, I look at motivation and ambition when judging someone.
Then there is intellegence, education, creativity, experience, work ethic, and reputation.

(same subject, new paragraph, wrap up, conclusion)
I think the focus on a win loss record is simplistic.
For me, pipe dreams about hypothetical saviors is a waste of time.

Troll count 2
Defensive rate. 4.5
Off toplic 3.8
Worth reading, not really
Worth posting,  probably not

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 09, 2021, 09:30:01 AM
So then it's about money from there. And we're not crying poor or lacking in sugar daddy's for the program.

How much will you be willing to chip in?

Or maybe you wouldn't have to. Maybe he is already rich and would view Marquette as SUCH a good job he'd do it for $1.

Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 09, 2021, 09:30:01 AM
I think our program is such a call to Beilein and he would have interest immediately. It wouldn't take selling our program to him.  We have so much to sell that speaks for itself.

And if you're the one proactive and making that call first, you're instantly up on everyone else who may be thinking about him too.

So then it's about money from there. And we're not crying poor or lacking in sugar daddy's for the program.

Source?

Beilein will be 68 in a couple weeks.  He's a stud coach but if MU hired him, he'd probably be on the verge of retirement by the time he got the program rolling.  It'd be a nice shot in the arm, but we'd just be going through the hiring process again in a couple years.  Not that we don't need a shot in the arm.

The above is very true.

What MU can do is when they go the assistant route is require the HC to put a seasoned Dale Layer or Jerry Wainright type on the bench. 

My needle is the lowest it has been since he was hired but am still in the middle. If the last three games are the new norm for the rest of the season,  I'll end up in the fire Wojo camp at the end of the season. Still think we have enough runaway to turn it around but need much better performances than the last three

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 09, 2021, 02:52:44 PM
My needle is the lowest it has been since he was hired but am still in the middle. If the last three games are the new norm for the rest of the season,  I'll end up in the fire Wojo camp at the end of the season. Still think we have enough runaway to turn it around but need much better performances than the last three

Yeah, I guess 7 years still is not enough.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 09, 2021, 09:23:41 AM
If you have an opening, I think it's worth making the call, if only to gauge interest. But bear in mind Beilein may want a Dick Bennett situation to rehab his son Patrick's reputation and possibly set him up to take over in 5-10 years. And I think it's highly unlikely he would end up here. Worth the call, but one I don't think would amount to much.

Considering what happened at Niagara, MU leaders wouldn't go for that.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2021, 07:44:23 AM
Don't no wear y'all get dis Belien chitfrom, butt he ain't cummin' heer, know way, no how, hey?

You are right Bellien most likely won't come but whom do you suggest they get?  I agree that at the end of the season barring a miracle run MU should consider firing him.  But I have zero idea who would be better or what type of coach would be acceptable to the 70s guys. You seem pretty confident about firing Wojo and about his replacement. Can you give us an idea of your insight into the situation?  Or are you just a 70s MU basketball historian (and I don't mean to insult, it's nice to hear about the old days). 

(With apologies to Neil Young)

Wojo's knockin' on the cellar door
Nojos hate him, baby, he's such a bore.
Ooh, ooh, the damage done

He beat Creighton and Bucky too
But in all the losses, man, he really blew
Gone, gone, the damage done

Nojos sing the song because they hate the man
They say that ProJos just don't understand
He's a dud, we've got to run him out

Wojo Needle? Hey, the damage is done
Tourney games, the guy has never won
Apathy's set in, this ain't no fun.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on January 09, 2021, 10:56:15 PM
You are right Bellien most likely won't come but whom do you suggest they get?  I agree that at the end of the season barring a miracle run MU should consider firing him.  But I have zero idea who would be better or what type of coach would be acceptable to the 70s guys. You seem pretty confident about firing Wojo and about his replacement. Can you give us an idea of your insight into the situation?  Or are you just a 70s MU basketball historian (and I don't mean to insult, it's nice to hear about the old days).

Thad Matta?

Quote from: YoungMUFan4 on January 10, 2021, 05:49:52 AM
Thad Matta?

I liked the idea of Matta a lot more a few years ago. That he's still not working is concerning. That said, I could probably scrape together a list of 15-20 names, given a few hours to consider it.

Some thoughts.  Not advocating for any of these but some ideas of who might be on a "short list" if Scholl felt compelled to make one. 


The obvious

Brian Wardle:  MU alum.  Successful mid-major coach

TJ Otzelberger:  Milwaukee native.  Successful mid-major coach.  Reputation as a top recruiter.


Assistants

Brian Michaelson:  Gonzaga assistant who isn't the coach in waiting.  Considered the key to their recruitment and transfer success.

Luke Murray:  Louisville assistant who has also worked for Sean Miller and Dan Hurley.  Considered an excellent recruiter.  Slimy?  Who knows.

Ryan Humphrey:  Notre Dame assistant.  Only reason I have him on this list is because of Scholl connections.  Probably a couple years away.


Current Head Coaches

Niko Medved:  Head coach Colorado State.  Midwestern roots, but built program at Furman and has had initial success at CSU.

Ben Jacobsen:  Head coach Northern Iowa.  Seems like the bloom has gone off his rose over the last few years though.

Randy Bennett:  Head coach St. Mary's.  He's been there 20 years and likely isn't leaving at the age of 58.

Kyle Smith:  Head coach Washington State.  Former Randy Bennett assistant.  Had nice success at Columbia and San Francisco before heading to WSU.

Jamion Christian:  Head coach at GW.  Prior to this worked at Sienna and Mount St. Mary's.  Former Shaka assistant.  Probably need to see how he does at GW for a few years because he inherited a dumpster fire there. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 10, 2021, 08:04:05 AM
I liked the idea of Matta a lot more a few years ago. That he's still not working is concerning. That said, I could probably scrape together a list of 15-20 names, given a few hours to consider it.

Matta's only 53, and Georgia apparently went hard after him before they hired Crean, but he turned them down because they weren't the right fit.  He's a lifelong Midwesterner who's coached at Butler and Xavier, two programs that are pretty similar to us.  If he's up to it, he might be interested. 

Jeez, he's only 53?

Yeah then I think MU should take a shot.  Why not? 

Is Otz still considered successful after a 1-7 start in a year he was supposed to be a top 4 team in the MWC? I say that as someone who was intrigued by TJO as a potential candidate last season.

The names that excite me most on that list are Wardle,  Michaelson, and Medved... which isn't very exciting. That being said,  no one was excited about Buzz when he got the nod and he turned out great on the court.

But it doesn't matter. Barring an alum offering to pay the buyout or Wojo leaving on his own accord,  he will be our coach next season. Best case scenario for Marquette is for the team to pull it together and start winning some games.

Matta is interesting if he's truly up for it.

But it also no matta  ;D

TAMU it is the rare coaching search that actually results in people being excited.  Maybe the only time I have legit been excited about a coaching hire was Kevin O'Neill, and that's because Dukiet was SO bad, and Marquette was SO desperate, that hiring away Lute Olson's top assistant seemed miraculous. 

Anyway, you may be right about TJO, but I don't know about the situation there enough to know if he is just working through some things that coaches have to work through.

Oh I 100% agree Fluffy. Just pointing out the obvious.

Quote from: cheebs09 on January 09, 2021, 08:56:44 AM
I think it's the thought that they are pleased with the state of the program and would be fine with less wins if it meant no off the court issues. The idea that Wojo's seat is ice cold. I don't know if it's true, but it doesn't sound like they are putting too much heat on Wojo based on what some people in the know say.

ETA: Not that I'm advocating we hire someone that would break the rules to get more wins. More that right now it seems like the best thing about Wojo as a coach is that he runs a clean program and is a nice guy.

For me it's the fact that we are (according to the general consensus of this board) hamstrung from parting ways with Wojo because of the buyout in his current contract. Nothing in the performance of his first contract warranted that kind of situation. That's on Scholl (and ultimately Lovell - but you don't fire a University President for an underperforming but clean coach - but you can fire the AD for getting into a contract he can't get out of when he wants to)

Quote from: 1SE on January 10, 2021, 10:36:35 AM
For me it's the fact that we are (according to the general consensus of this board) hamstrung from parting ways with Wojo because of the buyout in his current contract. Nothing in the performance of his first contract warranted that kind of situation. That's on Scholl (and ultimately Lovell - but you don't fire a University President for an underperforming but clean coach - but you can fire the AD for getting into a contract he can't get out of when he wants to)

There was performance that merited the extension. The roster he inherited was picked to barely finish inside the top 100 by KenPom. In 5 years, he had a team that just missed a Big East regular season championship and earned a top 5 seed. It was time to extend or cut bait (because standard practice is to keep coaches signed four years out for recruiting purposes) and with that resume any school in the country would have extended him. He didn't get an outrageous extension, it was standard for the market. What wasn't known and couldn't have been known was the global pandemic that would hamstring the university financially. That's not on Scholl.

Quote from: BLM on January 08, 2021, 08:02:36 PM
MU has never been able to bring in a coach the caliber of John Belien. Proven high level coaches aren't lining up to come to Marquette. They weren't after Crean. They weren't after Buzz. They won't be after Wojo.

Ben Howland interested in Marquette job, per report
Howland reached three Final Fours with the Bruins. Could he replace Buzz Williams at Marquette?
Mar 23, 2014, 11:09am EDT

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2014/3/23/5539054/ben-howland-marquette-coaching-rumors-ucla

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2021, 10:43:32 AM
There was performance that merited the extension. The roster he inherited was picked to barely finish inside the top 100 by KenPom. In 5 years, he had a team that just missed a Big East regular season championship and earned a top 5 seed. It was time to extend or cut bait (because standard practice is to keep coaches signed four years out for recruiting purposes) and with that resume any school in the country would have extended him. He didn't get an outrageous extension, it was standard for the market. What wasn't known and couldn't have been known was the global pandemic that would hamstring the university financially. That's not on Scholl.

I don't want to relitigate 2018-2019 in every single topic, but everything Wojo had done by 14:00 on February 23rd that year was undone by April 15th. And yet Wojo still got a contract extension with terms the school can't get out of on May 7th. Yes - fine - extend him - but with minimum buyout or with a performance-dependent buy-out. It's not like other schools were going to swoop in and pick up a coach who had just lost 6 of 7 and just had 2 of his star players transfer out because he couldn't manage a locker room.

The contract that he got is 100% on Scholl being terrible at his job.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 10, 2021, 09:14:11 AM
Some thoughts.  Not advocating for any of these but some ideas of who might be on a "short list" if Scholl felt compelled to make one. 


The obvious

Brian Wardle:  MU alum.  Successful mid-major coach

TJ Otzelberger:  Milwaukee native.  Successful mid-major coach.  Reputation as a top recruiter.


Assistants

Brian Michaelson:  Gonzaga assistant who isn't the coach in waiting.  Considered the key to their recruitment and transfer success.

Luke Murray:  Louisville assistant who has also worked for Sean Miller and Dan Hurley.  Considered an excellent recruiter.  Slimy?  Who knows.

Ryan Humphrey:  Notre Dame assistant.  Only reason I have him on this list is because of Scholl connections.  Probably a couple years away.

Thanks Fluff.  Good information.

Quote from: 1SE on January 10, 2021, 10:51:31 AM
I don't want to relitigate 2018-2019 in every single topic, but everything Wojo had done by 14:00 on February 23rd that year was undone by April 15th. And yet Wojo still got a contract extension with terms the school can't get out of on May 7th. Yes - fine - extend him - but with minimum buyout or with a performance-dependent buy-out. It's not like other schools were going to swoop in and pick up a coach who had just lost 6 of 7 and just had 2 of his star players transfer out because he couldn't manage a locker room.

The contract that he got is 100% on Scholl being terrible at his job.

Your first paragraph is fine, but to be honest you don't know what the buyout is.

And therefore you second, one sentence paragraph really isn't fair. You have no idea not only about the contract, but the dymanics at play with Wojo, Lovell and the BOT.

1. Darian Devries
(Big Dropoff)
2. Otz
3. Wardle

Quote from: Heisenberg v2.0 on January 10, 2021, 10:44:27 AM
Ben Howland interested in Marquette job, per report
Howland reached three Final Fours with the Bruins. Could he replace Buzz Williams at Marquette?
Mar 23, 2014, 11:09am EDT

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2014/3/23/5539054/ben-howland-marquette-coaching-rumors-ucla

Retread who left UCLA under shady circumstances. Which, of course, you knew.

I'll lazily quote Wikipedia:

In February 2012, a Sports Illustrated article portrayed UCLA player Reeves Nelson as a bully on and off the court, who at times intentionally tried to injure his teammates. The article stated that Howland looked the other way and did not discipline Nelson for over two years. Both UCLA and Howland disputed the story, some as untrue and others as beyond the knowledge of the program. From 2008—the Bruins last Final Four appearance—through 2012, at least 11 players left the UCLA program, including Nelson who was suspended twice and dismissed in December 2011. After 2008, UCLA did not advance past the first weekend of the NCAA tourney, and did not qualify for the tournament in 2010 and 2012. In 2009, Howland pulled a scholarship offer to Kendall Williams, who had verbally committed to attend UCLA in 2010. Several Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) coaches in Southern California thought that Howland delayed notifying Williams to deter other Pac-12 Conference coaches from pursuing him. Wary of Howland, many AAU coaches began advising their top players against playing for the Bruins. After the 2010 recruiting class, Norman Powell was the only one of Howland's 10 recruits who were from Southern California.
Despite the winning, Howland had developed a reputation for coaching a boring brand of basketball.

In addition to that baggage, there's the fact that UCLA underperformed his last 5 years there and the fact (using 20/20 hindsight) that he hasn't done any better at Mississippi State (in what most consider a lesser conference) than Wojo has at Marquette.

Once Mrs. Shaka turned us down, there was no NCAA-tourney-proven, baggage-free coach expressing interest in Marquette. And certainly no John Beilein. That's why we ended up with another (albeit ultimately less successful) version of career assistants O'Neill, Crean and Buzz.

But sure, if you want to claim Howland was "a coach the caliber of John Beilein" in 2014, knock yourself out.

After Buzz, there was no way Marquette was going to someone with Howland's dirty laundry.

Quote from: 1SE on January 10, 2021, 10:51:31 AM
I don't want to relitigate 2018-2019 in every single topic, but everything Wojo had done by 14:00 on February 23rd that year was undone by April 15th. And yet Wojo still got a contract extension with terms the school can't get out of on May 7th. Yes - fine - extend him - but with minimum buyout or with a performance-dependent buy-out. It's not like other schools were going to swoop in and pick up a coach who had just lost 6 of 7 and just had 2 of his star players transfer out because he couldn't manage a locker room.

The contract that he got is 100% on Scholl being terrible at his job.

The point you are missing is that the buyout isn't prohibitive. In a normal year, MU could and would afford the buyout if they wanted to move on from Wojo. This is not a normal year. No one could have seen COVID coming two years ago.

The buyout hasn't been a factor in the decision whether or not to fire Wojo until this year. Wojo has kept his job to this point because he has performed well enough to keep his job.  Depending on how the rest of this season goes the buyout may save his job this season. We will see,  we still actually have over half a season to play,  lots can happen,  good and bad.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2021, 01:17:07 PM
The point you are missing is that the buyout isn't prohibitive. In a normal year, MU could and would afford the buyout if they wanted to move on from Wojo. This is not a normal year. No one could have seen COVID coming two years ago.

The buyout hasn't been a factor in the decision whether or not to fire Wojo until this year. Wojo has kept his job to this point because he has performed well enough to keep his job.  Depending on how the rest of this season goes the buyout may save his job this season. We will see,  we still actually have over half a season to play,  lots can happen,  good and bad.

I have no reason to doubt you, TAMU. Still, that seems like a lot of certainty given that nobody 'round these parts seems to have a clue what the buyout is.

Is it $500K, $1M, $2M, $5M, what?

And what people don't seem to realize is that it's not just Wojo's buyout. Gotta pay off assistants. Then spend presumably more money to hire a new head coach and all-new staff.

I also am not saying it's prohibitive because I have no clue what Marquette's finances are, either in non-pandemic or pandemic times. Just pointing out what should be obvious: It's not an easy-peasy deal.

Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2021, 01:26:14 PM
I have no reason to doubt you, TAMU. Still, that seems like a lot of certainty given that nobody 'round these parts seems to have a clue what the buyout is.

Is it $500K, $1M, $2M, $5M, what?

And what people don't seem to realize is that it's not just Wojo's buyout. Gotta pay off assistants. Then spend presumably more money to hire a new head coach and all-new staff.

I also am not saying it's prohibitive because I have no clue what Marquette's finances are, either in non-pandemic or pandemic times. Just pointing out what should be obvious: It's not an easy-peasy deal.

I guess I just used Occam's razor. I think it is more likely that Scholl is somewhat competent at his job and gave Wojo a contract with a buyout that Marquette could handle if it needed to but didn't anticipate a global pandemic two years in advance than it is that Scholl is incompetent at his job and gave Wojo a contract that would make Wojo the only non-hall of fame coach that was unfireable due to a prohibitive buyout.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 10, 2021, 09:14:11 AM
Some thoughts.  Not advocating for any of these but some ideas of who might be on a "short list" if Scholl felt compelled to make one. 


The obvious

Brian Wardle:  MU alum.  Successful mid-major coach

TJ Otzelberger:  Milwaukee native.  Successful mid-major coach.  Reputation as a top recruiter.


Assistants

Brian Michaelson:  Gonzaga assistant who isn't the coach in waiting.  Considered the key to their recruitment and transfer success.

Luke Murray:  Louisville assistant who has also worked for Sean Miller and Dan Hurley.  Considered an excellent recruiter.  Slimy?  Who knows.

Ryan Humphrey:  Notre Dame assistant.  Only reason I have him on this list is because of Scholl connections.  Probably a couple years away.


Current Head Coaches

Niko Medved:  Head coach Colorado State.  Midwestern roots, but built program at Furman and has had initial success at CSU.

Ben Jacobsen:  Head coach Northern Iowa.  Seems like the bloom has gone off his rose over the last few years though.

Randy Bennett:  Head coach St. Mary's.  He's been there 20 years and likely isn't leaving at the age of 58.

Kyle Smith:  Head coach Washington State.  Former Randy Bennett assistant.  Had nice success at Columbia and San Francisco before heading to WSU.

Jamion Christian:  Head coach at GW.  Prior to this worked at Sienna and Mount St. Mary's.  Former Shaka assistant.  Probably need to see how he does at GW for a few years because he inherited a dumpster fire there.

My choices are
1. Coach Killings
2. Stan Johnson

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2021, 01:54:21 PM
I guess I just used Occam's razor. I think it is more likely that Scholl is somewhat competent at his job and gave Wojo a contract with a buyout that Marquette could handle if it needed to but didn't anticipate a global pandemic two years in advance than it is that Scholl is incompetent at his job and gave Wojo a contract that would make Wojo the only non-hall of fame coach that was unfireable due to a prohibitive buyout.

Reasonable. I'd still love to know what that buyout is, though.

Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2021, 02:35:23 PM
Reasonable. I'd still love to know what that buyout is, though.

Right, but my impression from the rumors over the years is that the buyout in this extension IS prohibitively high, even for non-pandemic years

But we don't know, so it's all pretty wild speculation.

Then again, what's a fan board for?

Quote from: 1SE on January 10, 2021, 03:29:14 PM
Right, but my impression from the rumors over the years is that the buyout in this extension IS prohibitively high, even for non-pandemic years

Years? There's been one offseason since Wojo was extended and he was a lock for the NCAAT before it was canceled (meaning he wasn't going to be fired) and the pandemic had already started. There literally hasn't been a non pandemic year since Wojo was extended.

Quote from: Trump Loves The Big East on January 10, 2021, 02:34:43 PM
My choices are
1. Coach Killings
2. Stan Johnson

Pat Kelsey, Winthrop

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 10, 2021, 09:14:11 AM
Some thoughts.  Not advocating for any of these but some ideas of who might be on a "short list" if Scholl felt compelled to make one. 


The obvious

Brian Wardle:  MU alum.  Successful mid-major coach

TJ Otzelberger:  Milwaukee native.  Successful mid-major coach.  Reputation as a top recruiter.


Assistants

Brian Michaelson:  Gonzaga assistant who isn't the coach in waiting.  Considered the key to their recruitment and transfer success.

Luke Murray:  Louisville assistant who has also worked for Sean Miller and Dan Hurley.  Considered an excellent recruiter.  Slimy?  Who knows.

Ryan Humphrey:  Notre Dame assistant.  Only reason I have him on this list is because of Scholl connections.  Probably a couple years away.


Current Head Coaches

Niko Medved:  Head coach Colorado State.  Midwestern roots, but built program at Furman and has had initial success at CSU.

Ben Jacobsen:  Head coach Northern Iowa.  Seems like the bloom has gone off his rose over the last few years though.

Randy Bennett:  Head coach St. Mary's.  He's been there 20 years and likely isn't leaving at the age of 58.

Kyle Smith:  Head coach Washington State.  Former Randy Bennett assistant.  Had nice success at Columbia and San Francisco before heading to WSU.

Jamion Christian:  Head coach at GW.  Prior to this worked at Sienna and Mount St. Mary's.  Former Shaka assistant.  Probably need to see how he does at GW for a few years because he inherited a dumpster fire there.

No love for Matt McMahon?

Come on everyone, you're missing the most obvious candidate: Gregggggggg Marshall. Proven winner, desperate for work, psycho wife.

Of course, the chances of Marshall being hired at MU are exactly the same as Wojo being fired after this season.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 10, 2021, 06:06:49 PM
Come on everyone, you're missing the most obvious candidate: Gregggggggg Marshall. Proven winner, desperate for work, psycho wife.

Of course, the chances of Marshall being hired at MU are exactly the same as Wojo being fired after this season.

You really think there's a possibility we hire Marshall?

First rule of College Presidents is no scandals.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 10, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
You really think there's a possibility we hire Marshall?

Wojo could lose every game and nor be fired. COVID sucks

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 10, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
You really think there's a possibility we hire Marshall?

None.

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 10, 2021, 06:30:22 PM
You really think there's a possibility we hire Marshall?

That's why I said the chance of Greggggg is the same as Wojo being fired is equal.

Unless Wojo drags the national title trophy behind his car around campus wearing a Bucky Badger costume, with kidnapped naked cheerleaders with him, he isn't getting fired this year. And I'm more likely dunk on Giannis than that ever happening this season. Follow the (lack of) money.

Just da female cheerleaders or male too, hey?

The wojo slurp support just keeps rising to the defense of Capt. Mediocrity. With support like this it appears that he has a lifetime contract. So we can all deal with it as MU continues to slide into lower depths of college bb.

Becky Hammon

Stan Johnson

Quote from: Eldon on January 10, 2021, 08:15:48 PM
Becky Hammon

Stan Johnson

Hammon's not coming to MU.

And Stan?  We will see how he pans out as a head coach first.

Quote from: willie warrior on January 10, 2021, 07:36:26 PM
The wojo slurp support just keeps rising to the defense of Capt. Mediocrity. With support like this it appears that he has a lifetime contract. So we can all deal with it as MU continues to slide into lower depths of college bb.

What part of "COVID is going to keep the university from firing Wojo" translates to "slurp support"?

Quote from: Eldon on January 10, 2021, 08:15:48 PM
Becky Hammon

Stan Johnson

Hammon will likely be a NBA coach soon, no reason to take on the additional headaches of the college game.

That said, she's a lot closer to my top two choices than anyone else mentioned in this thread.

Hammon wants to, and will, be a head coach in the NBA within the next few years.  Plus, she likely doesn't have the recruiting network and experience that a veteran head or assistant coach at the college level has.  This would also be why I'm against hiring Doc Rivers; no way he'd want to go into a teenager's home and kiss butt to the kid's parents.  And that's half the job of a college coach.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 10, 2021, 07:25:03 PM
That's why I said the chance of Greggggg is the same as Wojo being fired is equal.

Unless Wojo drags the national title trophy behind his car around campus wearing a Bucky Badger costume, with kidnapped naked cheerleaders with him, he isn't getting fired this year. And I'm more likely dunk on Giannis than that ever happening this season. Follow the (lack of) money.

It was a joke; I knew what you were getting at and tend to agree with you. Should have used teal. 

I don't see a change happening nor do I see MU extending Wojo either.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2021, 09:58:05 AM
Is Otz still considered successful after a 1-7 start in a year he was supposed to be a top 4 team in the MWC? I say that as someone who was intrigued by TJO as a potential candidate last season.

The names that excite me most on that list are Wardle,  Michaelson, and Medved... which isn't very exciting. That being said,  no one was excited about Buzz when he got the nod and he turned out great on the court.

But it doesn't matter. Barring an alum offering to pay the buyout or Wojo leaving on his own accord,  he will be our coach next season. Best case scenario for Marquette is for the team to pull it together and start winning some games.

Is Wardle still considered successful after losing to 2-7 N. Iowa today?  Bradley is now 6-4. Is this going to be the 2nd time in six seasons Wardle has a winning league record at Bradley?

Quote from: WhiteTrash on January 10, 2021, 09:21:25 PM
I don't see a change happening nor do I see MU extending Wojo either.

I think an extension is inevitable. But if it happens, it will come with a renegotiated buyout.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2021, 09:36:50 PM
I think an extension is inevitable. But if it happens, it will come with a renegotiated buyout.

How will we know if it does?

darian devries needs to be high up on the list.  what he has done at drake is incredible and he has plenty of midwest and big east ties.

Quote from: MU82 on January 10, 2021, 11:04:21 PM
How will we know if it does?

Occam's razor again. If Wojo gets extended after a blah season it either means a): Scholl is at least somewhat competent at his job and is giving Wojo the tools to succeed (an extension to help recruiting) and an incentive to win now or be fired (lowered buyout) or b) Scholl is incompetent and doesn't know how to handle an underperforming coach. I think a) is more likely.

Quote from: JTJ3 on January 10, 2021, 11:08:20 PM
darian devries needs to be high up on the list.  what he has done at drake is incredible and he has plenty of midwest and big east ties.

Darian, is that you?

Quote from: MUBurrow on January 10, 2021, 11:54:52 PM
Darian, is that you?

nope lol.  i also really like nate oats and otz as potential candidates.  both would do very well back home in milwaukee.  wardle would be kinda meh to me, but i understand the mu ties, and he does seem to be a better in game coach than wojo.  just has never recruited at the high major level as even an assistant coach.

Quote from: JTJ3 on January 10, 2021, 11:08:20 PM
darian devries needs to be high up on the list.  what he has done at drake is incredible and he has plenty of midwest and big east ties.

Well, DeVries' AD is Scholl's protege.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 10, 2021, 05:02:25 PM
Years? There's been one offseason since Wojo was extended and he was a lock for the NCAAT before it was canceled (meaning he wasn't going to be fired) and the pandemic had already started. There literally hasn't been a non pandemic year since Wojo was extended.

Sorry, I meant had there been no pandemic - it seems that even in the absence of the pandemic Wojo's buyout has appeared too high (according the the rumors on this site). If it really is, who knows.

But the basic point is the buck stops with the guy in charge. MUBB doesn't win, that's on Wojo. MU keeps around a coach that doesn't win, that's on Scholl.

And let's not kid ourselves, Marquette is a fine school but, overall, there is nothing from an academic standpoint that sets it aside from dozens of other private, non-selective, universities across the country. The thing that brings MU national attention (and thus interest from students, more donor money, etc.) is its basketball program.

Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2021, 04:46:03 AM
Sorry, I meant had there been no pandemic - it seems that even in the absence of the pandemic Wojo's buyout has appeared too high (according the the rumors on this site). If it really is, who knows.

But the basic point is the buck stops with the guy in charge. MUBB doesn't win, that's on Wojo. MU keeps around a coach that doesn't win, that's on Scholl.

And let's not kid ourselves, Marquette is a fine school but, overall, there is nothing from an academic standpoint that sets it aside from dozens of other private, non-selective, universities across the country. The thing that brings MU national attention (and thus interest from students, more donor money, etc.) is its basketball program.

OK but cmon...

When did you think he should have been fired.  In 2019 because they failed down the stretch?  In 2020 when Covid didn't even let them play in the tournament?

Look, I am not a fan of the guy and think its best to move on.  But realistically I know that there was no way they were going to fire the guy after the last two seasons.  Unless this season becomes an absolute dumpster fire, I don't see it after this year either.

Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2021, 04:46:03 AM
Sorry, I meant had there been no pandemic - it seems that even in the absence of the pandemic Wojo's buyout has appeared too high (according the the rumors on this site). If it really is, who knows.

But the basic point is the buck stops with the guy in charge. MUBB doesn't win, that's on Wojo. MU keeps around a coach that doesn't win, that's on Scholl.

And let's not kid ourselves, Marquette is a fine school but, overall, there is nothing from an academic standpoint that sets it aside from dozens of other private, non-selective, universities across the country. The thing that brings MU national attention (and thus interest from students, more donor money, etc.) is its basketball program.

Isn't out physical therapy program like no3 in the country? I mean I feel like that sets it apart if you're after that program.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 11, 2021, 08:29:08 AM

OK but cmon...

When did you think he should have been fired.  In 2019 because they failed down the stretch?  In 2020 when Covid didn't even let them play in the tournament?

Look, I am not a fan of the guy and think its best to move on.  But realistically I know that there was no way they were going to fire the guy after the last two seasons.  Unless this season becomes an absolute dumpster fire, I don't see it after this year either.

Revisionist history here but I think the best time to fire him would've been after the Hauser debacle and then hire Nate Oats

Now we're stuck with him for at least another year due to the financial situation. However, if it were up to me id fire him the second the season ends this year (I understand they won't and realistically can't)

Quote from: swoopem on January 11, 2021, 08:47:58 AM
Revisionist history here but I think the best time to fire him would've been after the Hauser debacle and then hire Nate Oats

He mishandled that situation, but the optics of that timing would have been really bad. What coach is gonna want to walk into a situation where they fire a guy over transfers?

It's too bad Oats didn't wait a year, because I think a case could have been made after last season. But alas, malaise forever.

Quote from: swoopem on January 11, 2021, 08:47:58 AM
Revisionist history here but I think the best time to fire him would've been after the Hauser debacle and then hire Nate Oats

Now we're stuck with him for at least another year due to the financial situation. However, if it were up to me id fire him the second the season ends this year (I understand they won't and realistically can't)

Right.  That's probably when a lot of people on the fence started jumping ship.

But there was no way to fire him then.

And no, there was no way they were going to fire him after last season either.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 11, 2021, 08:55:54 AM
Right.  That's probably when a lot of people on the fence started jumping ship.

But there was no way to fire him then.

And no, there was no way they were going to fire him after last season either.

Yea, it's kind of like the Herb Kohl Bucks. Very much a treadmill team. Good enough to get the 8 seed, but going to be stuck there.

I think if we finish Big East like 5-15 this year, in normal times, they'd maybe pull the trigger. I think right now the only way Wojo isn't the coach next year is if he takes a different job.

I hope at the end of the year we are talking about how Wojo turned things around and we had a great year and be excited to extend him. It just doesn't seem to be trending that way.

Paint Touches posted a sobering chart today. We aren't keeping our opponents away from quality looks.

https://twitter.com/painttouches/status/1348635482691948547?s=21

Quote from: MUfan12 on January 11, 2021, 08:53:24 AM
He mishandled that situation, but the optics of that timing would have been really bad. What coach is gonna want to walk into a situation where they fire a guy over transfers?

It's too bad Oats didn't wait a year, because I think a case could have been made after last season. But alas, malaise forever.

Trust me, it get it. But the collapse alone could've been a reason for firing.

I'm just saying I think Oats would've been the best guy for the job and the timing happened to work out that offseason

Quote from: swoopem on January 11, 2021, 09:29:09 AM
Trust me, it get it. But the collapse alone could've been a reason for firing.

I'm just saying I think Oats would've been the best guy for the job and the timing happened to work out that offseason

There's still a decent group of people to this day who truly believe the Hauser's completely blindsided Wojo with their discontent/transfer.

There was no way admin was making a move right after the fact.

Quote from: panda on January 11, 2021, 09:32:36 AM
There's still a decent group of people to this day who truly believe the Hauser's completely blindsided Wojo with their discontent/transfer.

There was no way admin was making a move right after the fact.

My understanding is Wojo thought mommy or daddy were venting and basically misread the situation. So while he may not have been blindsided it may have still been a surprise.

Quote from: panda on January 11, 2021, 09:32:36 AM
There's still a decent group of people to this day who truly believe the Hauser's completely blindsided Wojo with their discontent/transfer.

There was no way admin was making a move right after the fact.

Wojo was blindsided yet there were posters here saying after the Buffalo game (December) that the Hausers were getting frustrated. For 3 months Wojo had no clue his players were unhappy??? Sounds like a guy who's really got control of his locker room

I still remember the one and only press conference where someone asked him about the transfers and he snapped at the guy asking it saying to ask Sam and Joey and he didn't see it coming. Bullsh!t

Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2021, 04:46:03 AM
Sorry, I meant had there been no pandemic - it seems that even in the absence of the pandemic Wojo's buyout has appeared too high (according the the rumors on this site). If it really is, who knows.

You are forgetting half of the "rumor." The rumor is that Wojo's buyout is too high to fire him during an economic crisis caused by a global pandemic. The buyout discussion didn't come up until last offseason during the beginning of the COVID pandemic.

Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2021, 04:46:03 AM
But the basic point is the buck stops with the guy in charge. MUBB doesn't win, that's on Wojo. MU keeps around a coach that doesn't win, that's on Scholl.

If you want to look at the world in absolutes, sure. But you add even the slightest bit of context and you realize that Scholl has zero ability to fire Wojo, even if he wanted to. The only thing Scholl is guilty of is not forseeing a global pandemic.

Quote from: swoopem on January 11, 2021, 08:47:58 AM
Revisionist history here but I think the best time to fire him would've been after the Hauser debacle and then hire Nate Oats

Find me an example of a coach that was fired immediately after earning a 5-seed in the NCAAT without NCAA or criminal violations being involved.

I'll save you time, it's never happened. No program EVER would have fired Wojo after year five. To say MU should have is not reasonable.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 09:53:15 AM
Find me an example of a coach that was fired immediately after earning a 5-seed in the NCAAT without NCAA or criminal violations being involved.

I'll save you time, it's never happened. No program EVER would have fired Wojo after year five. To say MU should have is not reasonable.

Exactly. What coach would want to come in and work at a program where they would get fired after those type of results?

If we want to look at the silver lining, the job situation now is much more appealing to a broad coaching search. Candidates will look at the loyalty the school shows to Wojo and know they'll have time to build something.

He wasn't blindsided. He thought he fixed it in a four hour meeting a week before they announced the transfer.

It was handled terribly from start to finish.

Quote from: swoopem on January 11, 2021, 09:43:20 AM
Wojo was blindsided yet there were posters here saying after the Buffalo game (December) that the Hausers were getting frustrated. For 3 months Wojo had no clue his players were unhappy??? Sounds like a guy who's really got control of his locker room

I still remember the one and only press conference where someone asked him about the transfers and he snapped at the guy asking it saying to ask Sam and Joey and he didn't see it coming. Bullsh!t

The Hausers may be the only players in the history of basketball to be frustrated after an 18 point win over a top 15 opponent and rather than celebrate their teammate going for 45, 5, and 4 on 12/25 shooting and 9/13 from 3, they start thinking about transferring.  I don't blame Wojo if that surprised him.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 09:53:15 AM
Find me an example of a coach that was fired immediately after earning a 5-seed in the NCAAT without NCAA or criminal violations being involved.

I'll save you time, it's never happened. No program EVER would have fired Wojo after year five. To say MU should have is not reasonable.

I actually hate that we got that 5 season because based on any criteria from the NCAA before that season we'd have been at least a 7.  We got the 5 seed because of our fluky win pattern of beating some top 75 teams on the road for tier one wins but losing to them at home where the teams weren't good enough to count as tier 1 losses.  I still think if we just flopped where we won a couple of our games we'd have been an 7 or 8 where we belonged.

Quote from: CTWarrior on January 11, 2021, 11:09:54 AM
I actually hate that we got that 5 season because based on any criteria from the NCAA before that season we'd have been at least a 7.  We got the 5 seed because of our fluky win pattern of beating some top 75 teams on the road for tier one wins but losing to them at home where the teams weren't good enough to count as tier 1 losses.  I still think if we just flopped where we won a couple of our games we'd have been an 7 or 8 where we belonged.

That doesn't change the fact that we were a 5 seed. I hate that we were in the NIT in 2018 because the NCAA was still using RPI even though using NET we'd have been in over Providence. But fact remains we were out they were in given the selection process.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 09:51:15 AM
You are forgetting half of the "rumor." The rumor is that Wojo's buyout is too high to fire him during an economic crisis caused by a global pandemic. The buyout discussion didn't come up until last offseason during the beginning of the COVID pandemic.

If you want to look at the world in absolutes, sure. But you add even the slightest bit of context and you realize that Scholl has zero ability to fire Wojo, even if he wanted to. The only thing Scholl is guilty of is not forseeing a global pandemic.

Bill, that you?

Quote from: BLM on January 11, 2021, 10:36:16 AM
The Hausers may be the only players in the history of basketball to be frustrated after an 18 point win over a top 15 opponent and rather than celebrate their teammate going for 45, 5, and 4 on 12/25 shooting and 9/13 from 3, they start thinking about transferring.  I don't blame Wojo if that surprised him.

The limits you'll go to defend Wojo, like that game alone was a deciding factor in their justified frustrations rather than the more obvious months and months of issues building up, are comical.  With fans like you caping for our mediocrity, it's less surprising this fanbase is becoming apathetic.

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 11, 2021, 01:31:06 PM
The limits you'll go to defend Wojo, like that game alone was a deciding factor in their justified frustrations rather than the more obvious months and months of issues building up, are comical.  With fans like you caping for our mediocrity, it's less surprising this fanbase is becoming apathetic.

If the Hausers are really "all about winning," I don't know how they came away from the Buffalo game frustrated, a 15 point win over a top 15 opponent to push Marquette to 10-2.

I haven't really defended Wojo at all this year.  But what I do is call out absolute BS.  The Hausers can't be "all about winning" and come away from Buffalo frustrated enough that all of Scoop knew about it but somehow it went undetected by Wojo.

Quote from: BLM on January 11, 2021, 02:31:23 PM
If the Hausers are really "all about winning," I don't know how they came away from the Buffalo game frustrated, a 15 point win over a top 15 opponent to push Marquette to 10-2.

I haven't really defended Wojo at all this year.  But what I do is call out absolute BS.  The Hausers can't be "all about winning" and come away from Buffalo frustrated enough that all of Scoop knew about it but somehow it went undetected by Wojo.

You're so fixated on this one, singular game.  To fit some narrative.
It was so much deeper than a Buffalo game and had been going on well before then, while lasting well after.

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 11, 2021, 02:41:44 PM
You're so fixated on this one, singular game.  To fit some narrative.
It was so much deeper than a Buffalo game and had been going on well before then, while lasting well after.

Buffalo was 1 month into the season. What exactly do you call "going on well before then".

I won't claim any inside knowledge and you could clearly see an issue appearing in either the second SJU or second Nova where things weren't clicking right and Markus arguably screwed it up. But Wades has a point, if there was an issue after Buffalo or even prior then that the Hausers being fragile not the other way.

Quote from: swoopem on January 11, 2021, 09:43:20 AM
Wojo was blindsided yet there were posters here saying after the Buffalo game (December) that the Hausers were getting frustrated. For 3 months Wojo had no clue his players were unhappy??? Sounds like a guy who's really got control of his locker room

I still remember the one and only press conference where someone asked him about the transfers and he snapped at the guy asking it saying to ask Sam and Joey and he didn't see it coming. Bullsh!t

There is no question that Wojo lost control of the locker room on the Hauser fiasco. He blew it big time.

Quote from: willie warrior on January 11, 2021, 02:52:50 PM
There is no question that Wojo lost control of the locker room on the Hauser fiasco. He blew it big time.

I don't recall Wojo losing any other players to transfer that year so how is that "losing control of the locker room"? He lost control of 2 players who had their own agendas.

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 11, 2021, 02:41:44 PM
You're so fixated on this one, singular game.  To fit some narrative.
It was so much deeper than a Buffalo game and had been going on well before then, while lasting well after.

Yes, Joey was throwing his hands in the air when he didn't get the ball in November of his freshman year.

My understanding is that frustrations grew when Markus was allowed to go home over the summer while the rest of the team was on campus for team workouts.

The reason for him going home was never clearly communicated from the top and several guys, rightly or wrongly, saw that as preferential treatment and ignoring the team concept.

Oh good.  We're back to rehashing this.  Some of you need to learn to move on...

Quote from: wiscwarrior on January 11, 2021, 03:03:55 PM
I don't recall Wojo losing any other players to transfer that year so how is that "losing control of the locker room"? He lost control of 2 players who had their own agendas.

It was widely speculated on here that had the Hausers not transferred, at least 2 or 3 others would have, the most likely candidates being Anim, Cain, and Bailey.  They might've left anyway, but it was said that Stan convinced them to come back.  I have no inside info and am not sure if all that went down, but it was the scuttlebutt on Scoop.

Koby was also visibly unhappy while playing next to Markus last season, so Joey's bad body language was not an isolated incident.  Team chemistry has been a problem under Wojo.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 11, 2021, 03:25:39 PM
Oh good.  We're back to rehashing this.  Some of you need to learn to move on...

You must be new here.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 11, 2021, 03:25:39 PM
Oh good.  We're back to rehashing this.  Some of you need to learn to move on...

Until Wojo proves that he can consistently compete for Big East championships and win games in the postseason, some will continue to bash him for his failings as a coach, and rightfully so.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 03:30:31 PM
Until Wojo proves that he can consistently compete for Big East championships and win games in the postseason, some will continue to bash him for his failings as a coach, and rightfully so. with weird obsession on the same topics for years

Quote from: panda on January 11, 2021, 03:10:36 PM
My understanding is that frustrations grew when Markus was allowed to go home over the summer while the rest of the team was on campus for team workouts.

The reason for him going home was never clearly communicated from the top and several guys, rightly or wrongly, saw that as preferential treatment and ignoring the team concept.

Letting him go home was the right thing to do. Also not communicating why was the right thing to do. Frankly, it was no one else's business but it is understandable why other players would question it. It's a good reminder to not assume the worst in a situation. When someone else gets something that you don't, it's not necessarily because they are getting special treatment, it's because their needs are different than yours.

To be clear Panda, I'm not attacking your post, I'm agreeing that it was a factor and lamenting the fact that it was.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 03:45:22 PM
Letting him go home was the right thing to do. Also not communicating why was the right thing to do. Frankly, it was no one else's business but it is understandable why other players would question it. It's a good reminder to not assume the worst in a situation. When someone else gets something that you don't, it's not necessarily because they are getting special treatment, it's because their needs are different than yours.

To be clear Panda, I'm not attacking your post, I'm agreeing that it was a factor and lamenting the fact that it was.

No hard feelings tamu. It was a warranted special circumstance that, in my opinion, required some better messaging from the top.

Much like some posters pointing to the Buffalo game like it was the exact point of the downward spiral, this instance was not remotely close to the breaking point.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 03:26:52 PM
It was widely speculated on here that had the Hausers not transferred, at least 2 or 3 others would have, the most likely candidates being Anim, Cain, and Bailey.  They might've left anyway, but it was said that Stan convinced them to come back.  I have no inside info and am not sure if all that went down, but it was the scuttlebutt on Scoop.

Koby was also visibly unhappy while playing next to Markus last season, so Joey's bad body language was not an isolated incident.  Team chemistry has been a problem under Wojo.

Scuttlebutt on Scoop is another term for cow caca aina?

I'm not sure that team chemistry is the right phrase.  By all accounts, the team is very close, is consistently described as a family, seems to respect and get along with Wojo and the other coaches. The family environment of the team is consistently mentioned by recruits, enough that's it not a cliche but something that's viewed as a positive of the program.

I think Markus was a hard player to play with. He defies  team oriented basketball because a bad shot from Howard was better than a good shot from most of his teammates. No matter how much a player may give lip service to wanting the team to do well, all players want minutes, shots, and opportunities. Howard sucked up a lot of shots and opportunities from other players and I have to imagine that would be frustrating to teammates.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 03:45:22 PM
Letting him go home was the right thing to do. Also not communicating why was the right thing to do. Frankly, it was no one else's business but it is understandable why other players would question it. It's a good reminder to not assume the worst in a situation. When someone else gets something that you don't, it's not necessarily because they are getting special treatment, it's because their needs are different than yours.

To be clear Panda, I'm not attacking your post, I'm agreeing that it was a factor and lamenting the fact that it was.

The question is, would other players have been allowed to go home like Markus did without repercussions in regards to their playing time and role on the team?  Would other players have been allowed to go home like Markus did, period? 

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 04:09:15 PM
The question is, would other players have been allowed to go home like Markus did without repercussions in regards to their playing time and role on the team?  Would other players have been allowed to go home like Markus did, period?

I have no problem with him going home and frankly it was the right move given the circumstances.

I take issue with the lack of messaging from the top as to why he could go home while everyone else needed to stay on campus.

Quote from: panda on January 11, 2021, 04:12:15 PM
I have no problem with him going home and frankly it was the right move given the circumstances.

I take issue with the lack of messaging from the top as to why he could go home while everyone else needed to stay on campus.

Well if it were related to a mental health issue, Wojo shouldn't be disclosing the reason.  The team doesn't have a right to know.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 04:09:15 PM
The question is, would other players have been allowed to go home like Markus did without repercussions in regards to their playing time and role on the team?  Would other players have been allowed to go home like Markus did, period?

If they had the same circumstances as Markus? Absolutely.

Maybe the reason we talk about the Wojo issue so much is there's nothing of substance to talk about on the basketball court anymore?

Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 11, 2021, 03:25:39 PM
Oh good.  We're back to rehashing this.  Some of you need to learn to move on...

I'll take the blame for re-litigating the Sam/Joey saga, since I mentioned it in my first post on this thread.  But when the topic is Wojo's standing as our coach, are you in or out, that is 1000% relevant.

When I was informed by those who would know what went down in the days leading up to (check the receipts, I found out Masters Sunday they were gone and was the first to post here soon after)/following their transfers, I was out on Wojo.  He was a child.  His collapses that season, last season, and our current freefall only strengthen that belief.

If a pillar of coaching is building relationships and maintaining a positive culture where everyone is buying in, Wojo has failed.  The same issues continually pop up with his teams.  Then you take into account his comically lousy in-game coaching and I'm left wondering how people on this board are still bullish on him.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 04:37:49 PM
Maybe the reason we talk about the Wojo issue so much is there's nothing of substance to talk about on the basketball court anymore?

^^^^^

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 11, 2021, 05:12:35 PM
I'll take the blame for re-litigating the Sam/Joey saga, since I mentioned it in my first post on this thread.  But when the topic is Wojo's standing as our coach, are you in or out, that is 1000% relevant.

When I was informed by those who would know what went down in the days leading up to (check the receipts, I found out Masters Sunday they were gone and was the first to post here soon after)/following their transfers, I was out on Wojo.  He was a child.  His collapses that season, last season, and our current freefall only strengthen that belief.

If a pillar of coaching is building relationships and maintaining a positive culture where everyone is buying in, Wojo has failed.  The same issues continually pop up with his teams.  Then you take into account his comically lousy in-game coaching and I'm left wondering how people on this board are still bullish on him.

Every coach in America has transfers just about every year.  So if that isn't getting everyone to buy in, then no coach in America is succeeding at one of the pillars of coaching.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 11, 2021, 04:14:15 PM

Well if it were related to a mental health issue, Wojo shouldn't be disclosing the reason.  The team doesn't have a right to know.

It was presented as, Markus is going home to work out with his family. I don't think anyone on the team was aware of anything else beyond that and the coaching staff didn't address anything further.

Quote from: panda on January 11, 2021, 05:52:44 PM
It was presented as, Markus is going home to work out with his family. I don't think anyone on the team was aware of anything else beyond that and the coaching staff didn't address anything further.

Ok. Again they don't have a right to know more. Did anyone ask him directly?

Quote from: BLM on January 11, 2021, 05:37:39 PM
Every coach in America has transfers just about every year.  So if that isn't getting everyone to buy in, then no coach in America is succeeding at one of the pillars of coaching.

Every coach has transfers.  Not every coach loses two starters from a projected top 10 team.

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 11, 2021, 05:58:29 PM
Ok. Again they don't have a right to know more. Did anyone ask him directly?

I'm just telling you what I know. Feel free to pm if you'd like to discuss further.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 03:30:31 PM
Until Wojo proves that he can consistently compete for Big East championships and win games in the postseason, some will continue to bash him for his failings as a coach, and rightfully so.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 04:37:49 PM
Maybe the reason we talk about the Wojo issue so much is there's nothing of substance to talk about on the basketball court anymore?

The re-hashing I'm referring to is the Hauser letter.  Too bad we never allowed discussion on this topic before  :o

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 11, 2021, 05:12:35 PM
I'll take the blame for re-litigating the Sam/Joey saga, since I mentioned it in my first post on this thread.  But when the topic is Wojo's standing as our coach, are you in or out, that is 1000% relevant.

It is your fault!   I've mentioned several times that I really don't feel the need to talk about wojos job status anymore.  It's been flogged to death.  There's not a single *new* argument anyone is making.

Now - sometimes people confuse my opinion as some sort of mandate because I have the fancy word "moderator" around my profile.  This is really just my opinion that I'm tired of the topics.   I've not banned or even PM'd anyone here for being a someone who doesn't like wojo (unless I think it's purely a troll account) - I just generally stay out of the discussions. 

And yes, I realize that if people  want to get it off their chest (again, and again, and again) that's essentially why we're here for.  And there hasn't been a lot of MU hoops played the past couple weeks, so we've had more of these discussions. 

So that's all to say, Go Marquette.  Tomorrow night can't come soon enough for me.

Quote from: onepostdavis on January 11, 2021, 05:12:35 PM
I'll take the blame for re-litigating the Sam/Joey saga, since I mentioned it in my first post on this thread.  But when the topic is Wojo's standing as our coach, are you in or out, that is 1000% relevant.

When I was informed by those who would know what went down in the days leading up to (check the receipts, I found out Masters Sunday they were gone and was the first to post here soon after)/following their transfers, I was out on Wojo.  He was a child.  His collapses that season, last season, and our current freefall only strengthen that belief.

If a pillar of coaching is building relationships and maintaining a positive culture where everyone is buying in, Wojo has failed.  The same issues continually pop up with his teams.  Then you take into account his comically lousy in-game coaching and I'm left wondering how people on this board are still bullish on him.

I don't know what bullish posts you are seeing but the reason some people aren't as down as you are is because they don't know what you think you know. You've told this vague story about Wojo being a child for years but not every actually happened or who your source is. Which is fine,  you don't owe us anything.

Personally,  I don't buy your version. I've heard dozens of interpretations of Hausergate, included some from people "who would know" and they combine to cast blame on Wojo, Sam,  Joey,  Markus, Stan,  Mr. Hauser, and Mrs. Hauser, hell Froling made a cameo in one. Some make it 100% on Wojo, others make it 0% on Wojo. I find both extremes unbelievable. The truth as it usually is,  is likely somewhere in the middle. There's plenty of blame to go around and the most should go to Wojo as head coach. But the version that makes the most sense to me doesn't involve Wojo acting like a child. It does involve a Hauser acting like a college student and Wojo repeatedly failing to solve a growing problem.

In the end,  you're going to believe who you're going to believe. But my guess if you were being honest,  you would acknowledge that your source was likely biased and gave you a version with elements of truth and elements of spin. Which is fine,  all sources have bias,  we're just need to account for it

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 07:05:21 PM
I've heard dozens of interpretations of Hausergate, included some from people "who would know" and they combine to cast blame on Wojo, Sam,  Joey,  Markus, Stan,  Mr. Hauser, and Mrs. Hauser, hell Froling made a cameo in one.

I agree there is plenty of blame to go around. Lemme take a stab-

Wojo: Refused to rein Markus in, didn't read the locker room, cussed out a 21 year old kid when told of the transfer.
Sam: Didn't like not being the guy, tolerated it until things took a nosedive.
Joey: Immature-ass kid who checked out.
Markus: Played the way his coaches let him play.
Stan: Probably perceived as favoring MH, but that's a new one for me.
Mom and Dad: Wouldn't shut up about the way SPASH played the entire time Sam was here, like the program was UCLA under Wooden.
Froling: Dumbass who almost got kicked off the team in February of that season. Poisoned the well with Joey.

How'd I do?

Quote from: MUfan12 on January 11, 2021, 07:34:58 PM
I agree there is plenty of blame to go around. Lemme take a stab-

Wojo: Refused to rein Markus in, didn't read the locker room, cussed out a 21 year old kid when told of the transfer.
Sam: Didn't like not being the guy, tolerated it until things took a nosedive.
Joey: Immature-ass kid who checked out.
Markus: Played the way his coaches let him play.
Stan: Probably perceived as favoring MH, but that's a new one for me.
Mom and Dad: Wouldn't shut up about the way SPASH played the entire time Sam was here, like the program was UCLA under Wooden.
Froling: Dumbass who almost got kicked off the team in February of that season. Poisoned the well with Joey.

How'd I do?

I forgot about Harry.

Quote from: MUfan12 on January 11, 2021, 07:34:58 PM
I agree there is plenty of blame to go around. Lemme take a stab-

Wojo: Refused to rein Markus in, didn't read the locker room, cussed out a 21 year old kid when told of the transfer.
Sam: Didn't like not being the guy, tolerated it until things took a nosedive.
Joey: Immature-ass kid who checked out.
Markus: Played the way his coaches let him play.
Stan: Probably perceived as favoring MH, but that's a new one for me.
Mom and Dad: Wouldn't shut up about the way SPASH played the entire time Sam was here, like the program was UCLA under Wooden.
Froling: Dumbass who almost got kicked off the team in February of that season. Poisoned the well with Joey.

How'd I do?

Seems quite plausible to me. Markus-haters would say you forgot to mention him berating Joey, which pissed off the little boy.

Unfortunately, Joey did worse than just "check out." He killed us down the stretch. There was one game (Creighton, I want to say) he gave the ball away so easily and so often that I joked at the time the fix musta been in.

Quote from: MUfan12 on January 11, 2021, 07:34:58 PMFroling: Dumbass who almost got kicked off the team in February of that season. Poisoned the well with Joey.

I'd love to know the truth as to what, if any impact this had. I was reading back over old articles about Joey enrolling and immediately thought "well THAT'S interesting" when I saw that Froling was Joey's roommate his first year.

Quote from: MUfan12 on January 11, 2021, 07:34:58 PM
I agree there is plenty of blame to go around. Lemme take a stab-

Wojo: Refused to rein Markus in, didn't read the locker room, cussed out a 21 year old kid when told of the transfer.
Sam: Didn't like not being the guy, tolerated it until things took a nosedive.
Joey: Immature-ass kid who checked out.
Markus: Played the way his coaches let him play.
Stan: Probably perceived as favoring MH, but that's a new one for me.
Mom and Dad: Wouldn't shut up about the way SPASH played the entire time Sam was here, like the program was UCLA under Wooden.
Froling: Dumbass who almost got kicked off the team in February of that season. Poisoned the well with Joey.

How'd I do?

I'd like to hear more about the cussing and Froling

Harry acted like it was a temporary stop on the way to the pros. Didn't care much for school, didn't really want to be coached.

I don't know for certain if he influenced Joey while they lived together, but if one of TAMU's versions of events had him as part of the issue...

We do really need to let this thing go, though. They've been gone for almost two years. Markus is in Denver. And well, I think Wojo has learned from it. Now he's gotta figure out how to make it all work on the floor with this group.

Harry Froling was the most ass-garbage player that ever came through Marquette under Wojo. Every second he was on the court was worse than the previous one.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 09:17:20 PM
Harry Froling was the most ass-garbage player that ever came through Marquette under Wojo. Every second he was on the court was worse than the previous one.

And to think some were saying he would save the season when he became eligible, would be the next Henry Ellenson, etc.  Just more slurpery in line with the Dexter mixtape from this past summer.  Harry was another transfer bust in a long line of them, hey?

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 09:21:59 PM
And to think some were saying he would save the season when he became eligible, would be the next Henry Ellenson, etc.  Just more slurpery in line with the Dexter mixtape from this past summer.  Harry was another transfer bust in a long line of them, hey?

It's a theme - Wojo gets the most credit for players that haven't even stepped on the court. All summer I was told only a moron would call for the firing of Wojo when you've got a guy like Dawson Garcia coming in.

Well, nothing against Dawson, but he's just a decent frosh. Nothing more, nothing less. And certainly nothing worth handcuffing the University to an incapable dullard that rips the fanbase in the subtext of his postgame pressers to deflect from his own failures while simultaneously collecting our money by the bushel.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 09:21:59 PM
And to think some were saying he would save the season when he became eligible, would be the next Henry Ellenson, etc.  Just more slurpery in line with the Dexter mixtape from this past summer.  Harry was another transfer bust in a long line of them, hey?

+1 it's honestly astonishing how often the same people buy so deep into the  hype every year. Just ridiculous.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 09:27:20 PM
It's a theme - Wojo gets the most credit for players that haven't even stepped on the court. All summer I was told only a moron would call for the firing of Wojo when you've got a guy like Dawson Garcia coming in.

Well, nothing against Dawson, but he's just a decent frosh. Nothing more, nothing less. And certainly nothing worth handcuffing the University to an incapable dullard that rips the fanbase in the subtext of his postgame pressers to deflect from his own failures while simultaneously collecting our money by the bushel.

This is just false Wojo gets the most credit for bringing in recruits better than Buzz or Crean (Henry, Dawson, Joey, Markus prior to reclassifying), bringing in the all time leading scorer and by far the best freshman we've had in my lifetime at least. And bringing in great transfers.

There's plenty of things to criticize Wojo for that are valid, like what he hasn't done with those recruits. But there is a slight uptick and compare Dawson Henry Lewis etc to literally anyone's freshman year under Crean and buzz except James' and I'd take Wojo's freshmen.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 09:27:20 PM
It's a theme - Wojo gets the most credit for players that haven't even stepped on the court. All summer I was told only a moron would call for the firing of Wojo when you've got a guy like Dawson Garcia coming in.

Well, nothing against Dawson, but he's just a decent frosh. Nothing more, nothing less. And certainly nothing worth handcuffing the University to an incapable dullard that rips the fanbase in the subtext of his postgame pressers to deflect from his own failures while simultaneously collecting our money by the bushel.

If you decide the coach has to go, you fire him. There will be more recruits. So like you, I've never liked that reason that some have given for keeping him.

That being said, there wasn't a school out there that would have fired Wojo given the actual results on the court. You don't like that. We all get it. But it's a fact.

So all this angst is just angst. And that's cool. You like to blow off steam, and you blow a lot.

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 09:27:20 PM
It's a theme - Wojo gets the most credit for players that haven't even stepped on the court. All summer I was told only a moron would call for the firing of Wojo when you've got a guy like Dawson Garcia coming in.

Well, nothing against Dawson, but he's just a decent frosh. Nothing more, nothing less. And certainly nothing worth handcuffing the University to an incapable dullard that rips the fanbase in the subtext of his postgame pressers to deflect from his own failures while simultaneously collecting our money by the bushel.

13 points and 8 rebounds per game, shooting 40% from 3. Just a decent freshman.

But calling a 5th year senior who averaged 9 and 4 on bad shooting is spitting in the face of a guy who gave MU everything. Lol.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 09:21:59 PM
And to think some were saying he would save the season when he became eligible, would be the next Henry Ellenson, etc.  Just more slurpery in line with the Dexter mixtape from this past summer.  Harry was another transfer bust in a long line of them, hey?

I could be misremembering after years but I don't recall anyone saying that Froling would be the next Ellenson. I think there were comparisons to Ellenson's playstyle but I don't remember anyone saying that Froling would be as good as him. I think the "save the season" line was also something that people said sarcastically after he sucked, not something that was actually said before he started. I think what was actually said was that he may have been good enough to start given that the Milkman was our starting center at the time. Sadly, Froling failed to live up to even half of that low bar.

Dexter was rocked by COVID during the offseason. Maybe that's a line that I'm being fed or maybe that's why he hasn't been the factor some thought he would be. We'll find out next season.

Quote from: MU82 on January 11, 2021, 09:47:10 PM


That being said, there wasn't a school out there that would have fired Wojo given the actual results on the court. You don't like that. We all get it. But it's a fact.

Mike,

Am I misunderstanding or are you claiming "it's a fact" that schools like Kentucky, Kansas, etc., wouldn't fire a coach with Wojo's record?

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 09:27:20 PM
It's a theme - Wojo gets the most credit for players that haven't even stepped on the court. All summer I was told only a moron would call for the firing of Wojo when you've got a guy like Dawson Garcia coming in.

There may have been people who said that. If there were, they were wrong. You shouldn't keep a coach simply because he has a good recruiting class coming in.

What I remember people saying was idiotic was the idea that it was reasonable to expect Marquette to fire a guy coming off two consecutive scandal-free NCAAT appearances* given that only one other non-blue blood school in the past 20+ years had fired a guy like that....especially given that there was a financial crisis caused by a global pandemic.

*One appearance and was a lock for a second appearance according to over 100 bracketologists prior to the NCAAT getting cancelled due to COVID-19

Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on January 11, 2021, 09:27:20 PM
Well, nothing against Dawson, but he's just a decent frosh. Nothing more, nothing less.

I know you don't like quibbling over vocabulary...and neither do I...but "a decent frosh" doesn't seem like a fair descriptor for a guy averaging 13 points and 7.6 rebounds a game while shooting 51.3 eFG%. Who were your good MU frosh if Garcia is decent?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Mike,

Am I misunderstanding or are you claiming "it's a fact" that schools like Kentucky, Kansas, etc., wouldn't fire a coach with Wojo's record?

OK ... it is my opinion that it is highly unlikely that the vast majority of institutions would have fired their coach after going to three NCAA tournaments in four years.

Thanks for holding my feet to the fire, Tony. I'll be sure to do the same for you!

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 10:21:30 PM
There may have been people who said that. If there were, they were wrong. You shouldn't keep a coach simply because he has a good recruiting class coming in.

What I remember people saying was idiotic was the idea that it was reasonable to expect Marquette to fire a guy coming off two consecutive scandal-free NCAAT appearances* given that only one other non-blue blood school in the past 20+ years had fired a guy like that....especially given that there was a financial crisis caused by a global pandemic.

*One appearance and was a lock for a second appearance according to over 100 bracketologists prior to the NCAAT getting cancelled due to COVID-19

I know you don't like quibbling over vocabulary...and neither do I...but "a decent frosh" doesn't seem like a fair descriptor for a guy averaging 13 points and 7.6 rebounds a game while shooting 51.3 eFG%. Who were your good MU frosh if Garcia is decent?

Or to put it another way, a guy thats gone 2-10 over the final 6 games of two consecutive seasons. I bet a lot.of coaches with those kind of.finishes have been fired.

If we miss the NCAAT this year there is no question he SHOULD be gone. COVID may save his a$$, fine, but there then needs to be a hot seat with mega expectations for 2021-22.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 09:21:59 PM
And to think some were saying he would save the season when he became eligible, would be the next Henry Ellenson, etc.  Just more slurpery in line with the Dexter mixtape from this past summer.  Harry was another transfer bust in a long line of them, hey?

Actually...no. Prior to Harry, Wojo's transfer track record was excellent. Carlino was a stud. Rowsey didn't defend, but was an offensive dynamo. Reinhardt was a solid rotation player and really good sixth man. The only previous transfer that didn't work out was Gabe Levin, who at the time was averaging 18.5/7.3 for LBSU.

In addition, we could only go on what we were told, and it was people like Jay Bilas that were talking about what an impact player Froling would be. Regardless, at the time, there was reason to trust Wojo's transfers.

In The Athletic's college hoops mailbag, Dana O'Neil was asked which mid-major coaches would be getting recruited to big-boy schools. Her answer:

There are a bunch. Start out west with Russell Turner at UC Irvine. The Anteaters (also winning the mascot game) have won 52 games in the last two seasons and are atop the Big West standings again.

I mentioned John Becker at Vermont as a potential candidate at Penn State, and that's largely based on a remarkable run at Vermont. He has won at least 20 games in every year since joining the Catamounts in 2011.

Ben Jacobsen at Northern Iowa has proven to be more than just an Ali Farokhmanesh 3-pointer, and in the same league, Drake is going to have to work to hang on to Darian DeVries, who has two 20 win seasons and now a 13-0 start.

Just like the Valley, the SoCon is loaded with great coaches: Wes Miller at UNCG, Bob Richey at Furman and Duggar Baucom at The Citadel.

She also was asked about coaches on the hot seat, but the question specifically asked about P5 coaches. So if she thinks Wojo is on the hot seat she wouldn't have included the Big East anyway.

Quote from: Silent Verbal on January 11, 2021, 09:21:59 PM
And to think some were saying he would save the season when he became eligible, would be the next Henry Ellenson, etc.  Just more slurpery in line with the Dexter mixtape from this past summer.  Harry was another transfer bust in a long line of them, hey?

Oh come on. That is hardly unique to Wojo or Marquette.

Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2021, 07:38:27 AM
In The Athletic's college hoops mailbag, Dana O'Neil was asked which mid-major coaches would be getting recruited to big-boy schools. Her answer:

There are a bunch. Start out west with Russell Turner at UC Irvine. The Anteaters (also winning the mascot game) have won 52 games in the last two seasons and are atop the Big West standings again.

I mentioned John Becker at Vermont as a potential candidate at Penn State, and that's largely based on a remarkable run at Vermont. He has won at least 20 games in every year since joining the Catamounts in 2011.

Ben Jacobsen at Northern Iowa has proven to be more than just an Ali Farokhmanesh 3-pointer, and in the same league, Drake is going to have to work to hang on to Darian DeVries, who has two 20 win seasons and now a 13-0 start.

Just like the Valley, the SoCon is loaded with great coaches: Wes Miller at UNCG, Bob Richey at Furman and Duggar Baucom at The Citadel.

She also was asked about coaches on the hot seat, but the question specifically asked about P5 coaches. So if she thinks Wojo is on the hot seat she wouldn't have included the Big East anyway.

So she gave 7 names and one is not Brian Wardle.  Again, if he had gone to Xavier, or anywhere not named Marquette, nobody on MUScoop would ever have mentioned his name.  To me, where the candidate went to school should not matter unless in an absolute deadlock tie between two candidates.

Quote from: BLM on January 12, 2021, 08:19:10 AM
So she gave 7 names and one is not Brian Wardle.  Again, if he had gone to Xavier, or anywhere not named Marquette, nobody on MUScoop would ever have mentioned his name.  To me, where the candidate went to school should not matter unless in an absolute deadlock tie between two candidates.

Unless they went to Notre Dame or Madison. That sh*t matters

Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 12, 2021, 08:25:00 AM
Unless they went to Notre Dame or Madison. That sh*t matters

I stand corrected.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2021, 04:43:23 AM


In addition, we could only go on what we were told, and it was people like Jay Bilas that were talking about what an impact player Froling would be. Regardless, at the time, there was reason to trust Wojo's transfers.

Brew

Who do you think was the source of Bilas's glowing reports on Froling? 100% the info was coming directly from Wojo.

Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2021, 04:43:23 AM
Actually...no. Prior to Harry, Wojo's transfer track record was excellent. Carlino was a stud. Rowsey didn't defend, but was an offensive dynamo. Reinhardt was a solid rotation player and really good sixth man. The only previous transfer that didn't work out was Gabe Levin, who at the time was averaging 18.5/7.3 for LBSU.

In addition, we could only go on what we were told, and it was people like Jay Bilas that were talking about what an impact player Froling would be. Regardless, at the time, there was reason to trust Wojo's transfers.

I wonder how things would have worked out if Levin stayed. He did very well at Long Beach State as you pointed out.

Quote from: Trump Loves The Big East on January 12, 2021, 09:25:05 AM
I wonder how things would have worked out if Levin stayed. He did very well at Long Beach State as you pointed out.

He would've been an All big East player and we would've opened up the greatest HS pipeline ever.

Kidding of course, he probably would've been decent but nowhere near as dominant as he was in the mid majors. I'd wager he would've been less or equal to Katin the next year, really helpful on the 18 team when we had no actual PF. But that's it.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 12, 2021, 08:33:27 AM
Brew

Who do you think was the source of Bilas's glowing reports on Froling? 100% the info was coming directly from Wojo.

Sure, but that doesn't change the track record of success with transfers to that point nor the apparent belief from the staff that Froling had potential, even if Bilas was the mouthpiece they used to convey that information.

I really don't care about the Froling thing. He was worth taking a flier on, didn't work out, move on. But if people believed Froling could come in and really help that 2018 team, there were proven reasons as to why those beliefs would have been justified. Including that Wojo had previous success immediately incorporating a mid-season transfer big in Luke Fischer.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2021, 07:05:21 PM
I don't know what bullish posts you are seeing but the reason some people aren't as down as you are is because they don't know what you think you know. You've told this vague story about Wojo being a child for years but not every actually happened or who your source is. Which is fine,  you don't owe us anything.

Personally,  I don't buy your version. I've heard dozens of interpretations of Hausergate, included some from people "who would know" and they combine to cast blame on Wojo, Sam,  Joey,  Markus, Stan,  Mr. Hauser, and Mrs. Hauser, hell Froling made a cameo in one. Some make it 100% on Wojo, others make it 0% on Wojo. I find both extremes unbelievable. The truth as it usually is,  is likely somewhere in the middle. There's plenty of blame to go around and the most should go to Wojo as head coach. But the version that makes the most sense to me doesn't involve Wojo acting like a child. It does involve a Hauser acting like a college student and Wojo repeatedly failing to solve a growing problem.

In the end,  you're going to believe who you're going to believe. But my guess if you were being honest,  you would acknowledge that your source was likely biased and gave you a version with elements of truth and elements of spin. Which is fine,  all sources have bias,  we're just need to account for it

"Vague story".  No, I wasn't going to publicly air out sources on this message board, but I've sent out the story to dozens who PM'd for it.  The person who told me this is someone who worked for Wojo for four years and if he had any bias, it would be in favor of Wojo.

You don't want to believe it, that's fine.  It was a massive drop in a bucket that's been overflowing for Wojo.  Time to move on.

Quote from: MU82 on January 12, 2021, 07:38:27 AM
In The Athletic's college hoops mailbag, Dana O'Neil was asked which mid-major coaches would be getting recruited to big-boy schools. Her answer:

There are a bunch. Start out west with Russell Turner at UC Irvine. The Anteaters (also winning the mascot game) have won 52 games in the last two seasons and are atop the Big West standings again.

I mentioned John Becker at Vermont as a potential candidate at Penn State, and that's largely based on a remarkable run at Vermont. He has won at least 20 games in every year since joining the Catamounts in 2011.

Ben Jacobsen at Northern Iowa has proven to be more than just an Ali Farokhmanesh 3-pointer, and in the same league, Drake is going to have to work to hang on to Darian DeVries, who has two 20 win seasons and now a 13-0 start.

Just like the Valley, the SoCon is loaded with great coaches: Wes Miller at UNCG, Bob Richey at Furman and Duggar Baucom at The Citadel.

She also was asked about coaches on the hot seat, but the question specifically asked about P5 coaches. So if she thinks Wojo is on the hot seat she wouldn't have included the Big East anyway.

Turner is waiting for a Pac-12 job. Washington, Oregon State, and Utah may all have openings after this season.

Jacobson is interesting, but his contract runs through 2027, and had a huge buyout a few years ago which kept SLU from pursuing him. Would MU be willing to buyout Wojo and pay Jacobson's buyout in the current financial crisis MU is facing? Doubtful.

Becker would be interesting. I'd prefer someone with demonstrated HC success like he had. But, we'll have to keep pace with Penn State to get him (sound familiar?).

I think DeVries is very realistic. Drake's AD is Scholls' protege who he brought with him to from Ball State.

That said, barring a major scandal Wojo will be our coach next year.

Quote from: Billy Hoyle on January 12, 2021, 11:43:10 AM
That said, barring a major scandal Wojo will be our coach next year.

Can we photoshop him participating in the Capitol riots last week?

Quote from: Galway Eagle on January 11, 2021, 11:56:57 AM
That doesn't change the fact that we were a 5 seed. I hate that we were in the NIT in 2018 because the NCAA was still using RPI even though using NET we'd have been in over Providence. But fact remains we were out they were in given the selection process.

You are right about that, of course.  I just don't think we really earned that 5 seed is all.  I usually think we get hosed in seeding, but 2019 was the one tournament where I thought our seed was an out and out gift.

To move the needle on Wojo, I'd like to see us finish a season in the top 25.

Quote from: CTWarrior on January 12, 2021, 03:26:24 PM
To move the needle on Wojo, I'd like to see us finish a season in the top 25.

Yep - we've yet to finish in the top 25 under wojo

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 12, 2021, 02:47:54 PM
Can we photoshop him participating in the Capitol riots last week?

THAT was good! LOL

Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on January 12, 2021, 02:47:54 PM
Can we photoshop him participating in the Capitol riots last week?

I literally laughed out loud. Well done.