1. Watching the ball fly away. After another turnover. Too many.
2. Seton Hall is bigger, more experienced, held onto the ball better, shot 3s better and almost never showed the same defense on consecutive possessions. Press, no press, trap at half court, how they rotated. Chefs kiss.
3. Also did not shoot the 3 well. While the Hall was making it rain.
4. Could never make the consecutive shots or the stops that would have turned the flow.
5. I hope Garcia was taking notes from Mamu. Garcia could be even better if he sticks around. He isn't yet, though. Same with Lewis.
6. And it wasn't a lack of ball movement, it wasn't hero ball, it wasn't poor shot selection. Missed lay ups, probably due to the intimidation factor. Decent looks from 3 that didn't fall.
7. A 7 man rotation isn't enough. Hurry back Symir. Find your game Dexter.
8. And they still had a chance. For all of the failings, the team has heart. But the Big East is tough.
9. BTW, Koby travelled. Rarely called, but it was.
utterly frustrating loss.. painful
Absolute trash program. Kevin Willard can go to hell. Hate that team with every fiber.
Hate to see a team rewarded on defense for falling over, clear flop against J Lew late
Hate Seton Hall. Same goes for the turds in the game thread that give up at any sign of adversity.
Justin fouling was the pivotal play. He's good but still young. Needs to know the advantage he had didn't require that sort of a move.
Think we all knew this team would be inexperience but its really frustrating be this careless in 3/3 of the games against teams on paper comparable to us.
We are the kings of self inflicted momentum killers. Shouldnt have lost to to these dbags.
We really don't give up though. Team is always battling so that good to see.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on December 17, 2020, 10:08:29 PM
Absolute trash program. Kevin Willard can go to hell. Hate that team with every fiber.
You are WAY too hung up on that. They're expressive and talk a lot, but they play hard and they're not dirty. Remind me of Buzz's teams.
Quote from: tower912 on December 17, 2020, 10:06:56 PM
9. BTW, Koby travelled. Rarely called, but it was.
And DJ travelled before that call. Can't complain about that call. Saw the traveling call at a game I was at on Tuesday
Loss sucks obviously.
But this team has heart. Bunnies not falling.
Don't blame the refs.
Quote from: tower912 on December 17, 2020, 10:06:56 PM
9. BTW, Koby travelled. Rarely called, but it was.
Perhaps so, the issue being that Hall got away several obvious and egregious travels with no calls.
Jamal has been a welcome sight this year.
Where was Greg tonight?
Perhaps this was covered in the game thread or elsewhere, but where was Elliott tonight? Seems odd that he'd hardly play (or get a DNP?) after having one of his better games a few nights ago.
Too experienced. Too physical. Too many turnovers. Nice they didn't fold though.
Would have preferred Theo on the floor at the end but I guess I'm being picky.
too many turnovers nned to value rock better. Seton hall is always a street fight amazed that they had just 4 fouls called with 20 seconds left.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 17, 2020, 10:13:42 PM
Perhaps this was covered in the game thread or elsewhere, but where was Elliott tonight? Seems odd that he'd hardly play (or get a DNP?) after having one of his better games a few nights ago.
He played. Wasn't very good when he was out there.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 17, 2020, 10:11:30 PM
You are WAY too hung up on that. They're expressive and talk a lot, but they play hard and they're not dirty. Remind me of Buzz's teams.
Buzz had no one on his teams with the trash talk and dirty plays of Myles Powell and a couple others.
Too many open threes by SH Don't understand constant doubling, but many were wide, wide open. Great job by SH to see that and no adjustments by MU to stop.
MU missed probably 10 layups or shots within two feet.
As the constant theme over the years, it the refs..... every...single...game.
Two home losses, gotta win those, fans or no fans. It's your arena.
Tough loss. Happy they battled back to tie it and had a chance to take the lead. Showed fight after I'd chalked it up as a loss.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 17, 2020, 10:13:42 PM
Perhaps this was covered in the game thread or elsewhere, but where was Elliott tonight? Seems odd that he'd hardly play (or get a DNP?) after having one of his better games a few nights ago.
Needed the size. As opposed to Creighton, Cain was playing better.
Too many turnovers and too many times losing the shooter in the corner opposite Mamu.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 17, 2020, 10:13:42 PM
Perhaps this was covered in the game thread or elsewhere, but where was Elliott tonight? Seems odd that he'd hardly play (or get a DNP?) after having one of his better games a few nights ago.
You didn't watch? He got 11 minutes, and....one steal (zeros everywhere else)
Quote from: statnik on December 17, 2020, 10:15:38 PM
Buzz had no one on his teams with the trash talk and dirty plays of Myles Powell and a couple others.
I have no idea how they reviewed the play where Aiken shoved Cain to the ground with a two-handed push in the chest and decided not to call anything.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 17, 2020, 10:11:30 PM
You are WAY too hung up on that. They're expressive and talk a lot, but they play hard and they're not dirty. Remind me of Buzz's teams.
Completely. Anyone here who thinks DJO, Van, Crowder were choir boys on the court have some selective memories.
Quote from: tower912 on December 17, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Needed the size. As opposed to Creighton, Cain was playing better.
And more specifically foul trouble for Cain and any other player was not a issue. So we could play the starters a lot.
Great hustle throughout by both teams. Theo was an absolute monster with skill and huge hustle plays.
Can't stand them, but Hall earned it. Mamu is frustratingly good and a really tough matchup. Makes teams decide how to defend him and makes you pay with great passing if you double him. Hall had an answer for every run.
Thought we had it when we tied it at 61. Offensive foul then travel were huge empty possessions.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on December 17, 2020, 10:10:00 PM
Think we all knew this team would be inexperience but its really frustrating be this careless in 3/3 of the games against teams on paper comparable to us.
We are the kings of self inflicted momentum killers. Shouldnt have lost to to these dbags.
We really don't give up though. Team is always battling so that good to see.
Agreed. Really frustrating to be inconsistent. But that's probably the year we're gonna' have.
I feel like the fast pace that MU plays (often in response to the opponent) doesn't help young guys like Garcia and Lewis. It's like they both play with too much adrenaline when they get the ball in the low post.
I suppose that's the notion of having the game slow down for them.
It has for Theo after all these years.
Quote from: nyg on December 17, 2020, 10:15:54 PM
Two home losses, gotta win those, fans or no fans. It's your arena.
I disagree with this. They're just playing games in empty gyms. There's no real home court advantage this season.
Mamu seemed to hook almost every drive and dish. Do they not call that anymore?
For not enough of the game, MU didn't match the SH effort in my opinion. Has to be for 40 minutes.
When shots aren't falling, and ball handling challenged, it's difficult to win while only drawing 4 fouls in the 2nd half. Sure in the final seconds, a few more were tacked on at the end, but drawing 4 fouls in 20 minutes wasn't going to be good enough.
For a team that can struggle on the ball on offense, MU spent a lot of time dribbling and pounding the ball into the ground, instead of moving the ball, and moving without the ball.
On defense, close outs were not good enough. Mamu at times looking like a Magic Johnson assist machine when not scoring.
MU is a win one lose one kind of team so far against the decent to good teams.
Quote from: shoothoops on December 17, 2020, 10:20:15 PM
MU is a win one lose one kind of team so far against the decent to good teams.
About right for this regime.
Quote from: ATC03 on December 17, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Mamu seemed to hook almost every drive and dish. Do they not call that anymore?
Called it on Theo once.
My only real issue was with allowing that timeout after the hall player had fallen. Clear travel on replay. Beyond that, bad shooting night. Hung in and battled back.
unnatural carnal knowledge the refs
No what I said was unnatural carnal knowledge the refs. Both h about carnal or any of that bullshit. unnatural carnal knowledge the refs
No. I said unnatural carnal knowledge THE REFS
Quote from: Galway Eagle on December 17, 2020, 10:23:11 PM
My only real issue was with allowing that timeout after the hall player had fallen. Clear travel on replay. Beyond that, bad shooting night. Hung in and battled back.
Totally agree.
Quote from: fjm on December 17, 2020, 10:26:12 PM
No. I said unnatural carnal knowledge THE REFS
I liked the way they called it, save the charge call late.
I'd rather have a more physical game with less whistles than one with 50 fouls called
I'll take refs like these any day. Let the guys play. Stayed away from calling touch fouls.
There were no calls that stood out as egregious.
The charge call bothers me much more than the Koby travel, although Mamu took a good 4-5 steps on a drive earlier in the game that wasn't called so some consistency would help.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 17, 2020, 10:18:50 PM
Agreed. Really frustrating to be inconsistent. But that's probably the year we're gonna' have.
Had the same thought, rock. We will win games we aren't supposed to (already have won 2) and lose games we probably shouldn't (already have lost 2). No matter who we play the rest of the way, we aren't good enough to give away possessions like we did the first half and shoot poorly most of the game.
And yet, I guess I'm crazy, but I came away fairly encouraged. Wojo let DJ play through more than a half of struggles and the kid delivered big-time down the stretch; DJ is gonna be a stud when he values the ball a little more. I hate that we lost that game, but we showed a lot of character and fight, and I'd expect nothing less.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 17, 2020, 10:30:51 PM
The charge call bothers me much more than the Koby travel, although Mamu took a good 4-5 steps on a drive earlier in the game that wasn't called so some consistency would help.
The SHU player sold it well, but Lewis threw his shoulder into him. Marquette didn't lose this game because of the refs. Also, Marquette's next time down the court after the Koby travel, SHU got whistled for two quick fouls.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 17, 2020, 10:16:53 PM
I have no idea how they reviewed the play where Aiken shoved Cain to the ground with a two-handed push in the chest and decided not to call anything.
I thought it was something until they showed the replay. Cain made the most of the opposing player having two hands on his chest, but the guy didn't really have much follow through and was turning back to the ball before Cain had fallen.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 17, 2020, 10:34:08 PM
The SHU player sold it well, but Lewis threw his shoulder into him. Marquette didn't lose this game because of the refs. Also, Marquette's next time down the court after the Koby travel, SHU got whistled for two quick fouls.
Not blaming the refs for the loss but just like Greg got penalized for flopping against Creighton I don't think Hall should have been rewarded there.
MU lost this in the first 8 minutes of the game with sloppy play and turnovers. From that point on it was even. Without that stretch MU has a small lead at half and likely pulls away at the end. As usual SH is the tougher team.
If you had told me 7 years ago Willard would have built a tougher and more consistently winning program than whoever we hired to replace Buzz I would have said you were crazy and Willard will be more likely to be fired. I don't like his style but I'd sure take his results.
For a PG, DJ has incredibly poor dribbling skills.
Frustrating result but I like this team. No quit. Ball didn't go in the basket like it did against Creighton, but the Pirates don't give a team as many easy looks as the Blue Jays do.
I evidently watched the same game as Fluffy - but not the one seen by other Scoopers. Refs were actually good, let both teams play. Don't understand the hate for Seton Hall. They have one outstanding player and a bunch of lunch pail guys who bust their asses. Tough but not dirty.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2020, 11:12:59 PM
Frustrating result but I like this team. No quit. Ball didn't go in the basket like it did against Creighton, but the Pirates don't give a team as many easy looks as the Blue Jays do.
I evidently watched the same game as Fluffy - but not the one seen by other Scoopers. Refs were actually good, let both teams play. Don't understand the hate for Seton Hall. They have one outstanding player and a bunch of lunch pail guys who bust their asses. Tough but not dirty.
Ball just didn't go in. It happens. On to the next one
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on December 17, 2020, 11:09:12 PM
For a PG, DJ has incredibly poor dribbling skills.
It's a weakness of his, but he is the most athletic PG they've had in many years so he does have some strengths that offset that. He had more blocked shots and dunks tonight than we've had combined at that position in over 10 years. I'll take our chances with DJ at the point this year.
There is a principle I have learned that you should always attack height. When MU did tonight, they were successful on offense, winning points in the paint. When they didn't, they struggled. When MU cleared the press, they didn't attack the advantage, they pulled it back out and reset the offense. The results showed it.
Coming into the game, MU was very good at free throw rate but they attempted just eight free throws tonight. PIP went MU's way 26-20 tonight. PIP+ FTM went SH's way 35-34. MU didn't push that advantage enough and lost the war of attrition. And the frosh learned some lessons tonight about life in the BE.
Btw, good defensive game overall. 1.04 Deff. Mamu did kill us out of the doubles with 7 assists, though.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2020, 11:12:59 PM
Frustrating result but I like this team. No quit. Ball didn't go in the basket like it did against Creighton, but the Pirates don't give a team as many easy looks as the Blue Jays do.
I evidently watched the same game as Fluffy - but not the one seen by other Scoopers. Refs were actually good, let both teams play. Don't understand the hate for Seton Hall. They have one outstanding player and a bunch of lunch pail guys who bust their asses. Tough but not dirty.
The opposing team always seems more like punks and dirty when they have beaten you 5 straight times.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2020, 11:12:59 PM
Frustrating result but I like this team. No quit. Ball didn't go in the basket like it did against Creighton, but the Pirates don't give a team as many easy looks as the Blue Jays do.
I evidently watched the same game as Fluffy - but not the one seen by other Scoopers. Refs were actually good, let both teams play. Don't understand the hate for Seton Hall. They have one outstanding player and a bunch of lunch pail guys who bust their asses. Tough but not dirty.
Yeah I personally hate Hall for the old Hazel and Pope days. A little frustrated Willard essentially kept his job by the sketchy whitehead recruitment. And genuinely jealous they've gone from Delgado & co, to Powell, to Mamu. a great system now that's taken some time to install.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2020, 11:19:06 PM
Btw, good defensive game overall. 1.04 Deff. Mamu did kill us out of the doubles with 7 assists, though.
No it wasn't and yes he did. Guys completely out of position and unable to recover to challenge the open shooter sufficiently. I'd argue there shouldn't have been so much weak side help when Mamu was in the paint area. He and the shooters he was finding killed us, and the biggest basket of the night happened because of it.
Too many open 3's allowed.
Too few 3's made.
Quote from: CountryRoads on December 17, 2020, 11:18:15 PM
It's a weakness of his, but he is the most athletic PG they've had in many years so he does have some strengths that offset that. He had more blocked shots and dunks tonight than we've had combined at that position in over 10 years. I'll take our chances with DJ at the point this year.
I love DJ's overall game and really hope we have him beyond this year. But he's got to clean up the sloppy handling. He's one of our worst turnover offenders. And Wojo needs to start making him accountable.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 17, 2020, 11:33:39 PM
No it wasn't and yes he did. Guys completely out of position and unable to recover to challenge the open shooter sufficiently. I'd argue there shouldn't have been so much weak side help when Mamu was in the paint area. He and the shooters he was finding killed us, and the biggest basket of the night happened because of it.
Do you think the 1.22 against Creighton was? In fact, MU's defense was good tonight and kept us in the game. You have to pick your poison with Mamu, and MU picked to give up the perimeter. The freshman would have been abused inside 1:1. I do agree our rotations were slow at times but 1.04 is very good for a BE game. MU's offense was crap.
Of course, our easy transition points given up on turnovers in the 1st half didn't help our defense.
Contrary to what many have said, I feel like we played solid defense 90% of the possessions this game. But every single possession we didn't play good defense, Seton Hall made us pay. Mamu abused us every time we doubled him in the paint. This is completely off memory but I think Seton Hall went 5/7 from three when Mamu passed out of a double. Need to do a better job of blocking passing lanes when we double in the post, have been consistently burned on this all season. I think a better strategy tonight would have been to play Mamu straight up and let him get his while locking down everyone else, especially given how the refs were calling the game. Poor coaching decision to continue to double Mamu.
Justin Lewis is a force on the boards and a very good offensive play. He's a bad defender. Which is fine, a lot of freshman are, he'll get better. That inbound to Mamu for an open three was a killer and was completely on Lewis for losing track of his assignment.
Also love Dawson on the boards and actually thought when he was on Mamu he did a good job defending him. He needs to get stronger in the post on offense. Given Seton Hall's size, not surprised he struggled. Should have a better game against Xavier.
Jared Rhoden made some very tough, contested, long twos. I really like him as a player and hate him as an opponent.
The turnovers were brutal in the first half. Contrary to what some seemed to have suggested, Wojo made some halftime adjustments and the turnovers were under control in the second half. 9 turnovers at half, 12 turnovers heading into the last minute of the game. The flop/charge and Koby travels were terrible ways for this game to end.
While I prefer this to 50 foul calls a game, I don't think the refs did a good job overall. That physical of a game, with that aggressive of a press by Seton Hall, there should have been more foul calls on both sides. In a normal game, I wouldn't minded the charge call on Lewis, but did seem inconsistent with the way the game had been called. The travel on Koby was a travel...but that call happens 3 or 4 times every game and I would say it doesn't get called more times than it does....as others have pointed out, there were a couple of missed travels on the other end that were killers (Rhoden, Aiken). Also, Mamu hooks almost every time he is in the post. I'm fine with it not being called...until you call it on John.
The other play that was an absolute run killer was the D.J. Carton block. Carton makes the huge three to cut the lead to 1. Comes down on the other end and obliterates Aiken's layup from behind. Garcia isn't expecting the rebound, fumbles it straight into the hands of Molson for an uncontested layup to push the lead out to 3. Even though we ended up tying it after the next possession, I feel like that changed the momentum.
I liked the adjustment to bring John down to help handle the press. Offense looked much more smooth in the second half. We can't wait until halftime to make that adjustment. Wojo has to be better about make adjustments on the fly. Also, we waited too long to burn our first timeout, should have happened after Dawson gave the ball away and Rhoden converted on the other end.
I hated Dawson fouling with .5 seconds left. Every point matters in the NET, pay attention and let the clock run out.
Carton absolutely has the ability to be an NBA point guard...if he can fix his handle. He's a wizard some times but other times he just begs to be turned over.
I love what John can do when fully healthy.
I appreciate that our team is trying to work the ball to find a great shot, but sometimes you need to let it fly when you have a good shot early in the shot clock. Too often we pass up an open look in favor of passing around the perimeter for another 10-15 seconds which sometimes gets a better look but more often than not gets a similar or worse look. With how good we are on the offensive glass, I think we can afford to have a quick trigger sometimes and just play volleyball with our misses.
No question, expected to win this one. Disappointed we didn't. Still ahead of where we need to be at this point in season. Get 1 of the next 2 and I'm feeling very good about the remainder of the season.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2020, 11:46:11 PM
Do you think the 1.22 against Creighton was? In fact, MU's defense was good tonight and kept us in the game. You have to pick your poison with Mamu, and MU picked to give up the perimeter. The freshman would have been abused inside 1:1. I do agree our rotations were slow at times but 1.04 is very good for a BE game. MU's offense was crap.
Of course, our easy transition points given up on turnovers in the 1st half didn't help our defense.
First half defense wasn't great. There was a stretch in the 2nd half that it was really impressive. SHU couldn't do too much and two of their baskets were lucky putbacks.
Agreed with what Lenny said earlier, no quit in this team. Mental mistakes dug them a huge hole but they clawed and scratched their way back to a tie game with a chance to take the lead in the final minute. One more lucky bounce or favorable call for us or one less for the bad guys and we likely win this game. Still, horseshoes and hand grenades. Gotta take what they learned and take it out on Xavier.
This game is what happens when the core of your team includes two freshman, and almost-freshman in DJ Carton, Akanno and Torrance. One night you'll beat Creighton and the next night you slip on banana peel against thugs like Seton Hall.
It happens.
A year from now, this team pounds Seton Hall into the dirt, head first. They're that good. But they're maddingly inconsistent, which is why coaches often balk at playing freshmen. The turnovers last night are one example. I pulled what's left of my hair out over them. The sloppiness at times was too much to watch. That's a young team trying to find itself.
Morale of story: Savor the wins against Wisconsin and Creighton but know now that the Oklahoma States, UCLAs and Seton Halls are going to happen. It will happen again but as the season wears on, we'll grow in maturity and BIg East skills. Hopefull, if we see these turkeys again, we'll give them what they deserve.
Zyprexa anyone? This team is bipolar. Down one day up the next.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 17, 2020, 11:50:14 PM
I appreciate that our team is trying to work the ball to find a great shot, but sometimes you need to let it fly when you have a good shot early in the shot clock. Too often we pass up an open look in favor of passing around the perimeter for another 10-15 seconds which sometimes gets a better look but more often than not gets a similar or worse look. With how good we are on the offensive glass, I think we can afford to have a quick trigger sometimes and just play volleyball with our misses.
I have thought this same thing for the past few games. We seem to be so intent on running the offense that we pass up a lot of open shots that we should just let fly. I appreciate the desire to work the ball inside but it gets us into trouble with the shot clock often.
Teams kill us on high PnR leaving shooters in the corners with rotations being slow. Wisco ran a perfect one with Trice/ Reuvers to a wide open Ford late in that game. Hall was doing the same last night. Looked like Wojo started switching the high screen with about 5 minutes left.
Big East is a tough conference historically every possession Is a battle. With a 20 game conference season, the winners are going to be those who can consistently bring their their energy for 40 minutes.
It was With great spirit that we fought back to tie it . Just need to find a way to keep it going to the victory. Closing out for wins is hard to do in any sport.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on December 17, 2020, 11:43:53 PM
I love DJ's overall game and really hope we have him beyond this year. But he's got to clean up the sloppy handling. He's one of our worst turnover offenders. And Wojo needs to start making him accountable.
I'm curious what you mean by "hold him accountable."
Had Wojo not stuck with DJ in this game, we would have lost by 20.
Besides, how do you know he didn't hold him accountable by talking to him at length at halftime, or having an assistant do so during the game? Holding him accountable by benching him for 10 minutes would not have helped either DJ or the team.
And there were a couple of games where Wojo DID sit DJ for some stretches after DJ played poorly. Each situation is different.
You can't treat each player the same. We know that DJ has battled some things, and that's how he ended up on the transfer market in the first place. For all you and I know, Wojo -- who is far closer to DJ than you or I will ever be -- has handled DJ's situation absolutely perfectly this season.
Last night, I was thrilled that Wojo let DJ play his way out of his problems. Doing so almost won the game for us.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 17, 2020, 10:16:53 PM
I have no idea how they reviewed the play where Aiken shoved Cain to the ground with a two-handed push in the chest and decided not to call anything.
This was the only quibble I had with the refs. I guess it wasn't flagrant enough or above the shoulders.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on December 17, 2020, 10:38:29 PM
Not blaming the refs for the loss but just like Greg got penalized for flopping against Creighton I don't think Hall should have been rewarded there.
Eh, Lewis lowered his shoulder and went straight through the defender. They are gonna call that almost every time. I thought Koby travelled, too.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 17, 2020, 11:19:06 PM
When MU cleared the press, they didn't attack the advantage, they pulled it back out and reset the offense. The results showed it.
Excellent point. Seton Hall played a very good game defensively. Reminded me of OK State. Carton did not handle the tight pressure defense real well, especially in the first half.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 17, 2020, 10:16:53 PM
I have no idea how they reviewed the play where Aiken shoved Cain to the ground with a two-handed push in the chest and decided not to call anything.
Cain flopped his head back, thats why. Refs were fine, mu lost this one on their own.
This is a fun team to watch as opposed to Wojos previous teams. You can clearly see the talent and fight. I am optimistic they will be a top 10 team or better a year from now as they progress as a team and mature. For this year, what we have seen so far is what we will get. Some exceptional games, some not.
We saw BE preseason player of the year in Zegarowski. We saw Mamu. Zegaroeski is good (and had a bad game versus us) but Mamu is, to me, so much harder and versatile to matchup with. I don't see where it's even close on POY.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 18, 2020, 07:30:24 AM
We saw BE preseason player of the year in Zegarowski. We saw Mamu. Zegaroeski is good (and had a bad game versus us) but Mamu is, to me, so much harder and versatile to matchup with. I don't see where it's even close on POY.
We still have a whole season ahead to see other candidates, but I agree with you that it's hard to imagine a better all-around player in the league than Mamu. As you say, a difficult matchup for anybody.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 18, 2020, 07:30:24 AM
We saw BE preseason player of the year in Zegarowski. We saw Mamu. Zegaroeski is good (and had a bad game versus us) but Mamu is, to me, so much harder and versatile to matchup with. I don't see where it's even close on POY.
Agree. Bad game against us aside for Zegarowski, everything Seton Hall does seems to come off Mamu creating something for himself or a wide open look for somebody. Last night those somebodies were hitting at a good clip. Mamu's combination of size, skill, unselfishness and speed make him a really tough guard for almost all college players. He'll be a solid pro.
Quote from: MU82 on December 18, 2020, 06:58:07 AM
I'm curious what you mean by "hold him accountable."
Had Wojo not stuck with DJ in this game, we would have lost by 20.
Besides, how do you know he didn't hold him accountable by talking to him at length at halftime, or having an assistant do so during the game? Holding him accountable by benching him for 10 minutes would not have helped either DJ or the team.
And there were a couple of games where Wojo DID sit DJ for some stretches after DJ played poorly. Each situation is different.
You can't treat each player the same. We know that DJ has battled some things, and that's how he ended up on the transfer market in the first place. For all you and I know, Wojo -- who is far closer to DJ than you or I will ever be -- has handled DJ's situation absolutely perfectly this season.
Last night, I was thrilled that Wojo let DJ play his way out of his problems. Doing so almost won the game for us.
The skill gap between DJ and our next best Point guard is a mile wide. With Symir out it is even wider. Whether he's at the top of his game or he's struggling, Carton has to play as many minutes as he's physically able.
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 18, 2020, 07:50:01 AM
Agree. Bad game against us aside for Zegarowski, everything Seton Hall does seems to come off Mamu creating something for himself or a wide open look for somebody. Last night those somebodies were hitting at a good clip. Mamu's combination of size, skill, unselfishness and speed make him a really tough guard for almost all college players. He'll be a solid pro.
He will have a good pro career, but not sure it will be in the NBA. While he IS big, he doesn't really PLAY big. And I am not sure he is a good enough shooter to overcome a lack of athleticism.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 18, 2020, 08:00:16 AM
The skill gap between DJ and our next best Point guard is a mile wide. With Symir out it is even wider. Whether he's at the top of his game or he's struggling, Carton has to play as many minutes as he's physically able.
Yep. It would have done neither DJ nor the team any good to bench him last night. He is still relatively young -- still hasn't played the equivalent of one full college season. He will get better on the court, experiencing the highs and lows while learning on the fly, not on the bench.
We have a sophomore PG who only played a half a season of basketball. You can see the talent there. Yes he turns it over too much, but IMO the only thing that helps that is experience.
I mean, what are the options? Koby isn't much better and Symir...well let's just say I am not sure he is a BE PG. Time will tell I guess.
Quote from: Spaniel with a Short Tail on December 17, 2020, 11:09:12 PM
For a PG, DJ has incredibly poor dribbling skills.
Most dynamic PG we've had in a long time. He prob takes too much risk dribbling because he's confident with the ball. I thought he's handling the ball really well against pressure vs prior years when press resulted in high probability turnover.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2020, 08:15:45 AM
We have a sophomore PG who only played a half a season of basketball. You can see the talent there. Yes he turns it over too much, but IMO the only thing that helps that is experience.
I mean, what are the options? Koby isn't much better and Symir...well let's just say I am not sure he is a BE PG. Time will tell I guess.
This has been my issue for this team. Overall guard play hasn't been good enough at times. Depth is thin at the 1,2,3. Coach is responsible for the roster. This may be a concern again next season at some of these spots.
Kevin Willard:
First 5 seasons at SH were a struggle bus. The next 5? His teams did not finish worse than 3rd in the league any season. They haven't had much NCAA success, but they have in the league.
Quote from: shoothoops on December 18, 2020, 08:35:13 AM
This has been my issue for this team. Overall guard play hasn't been good enough at times. Depth is thin at the 1,2,3. Coach is responsible for the roster. This may be a concern again next season at some of these spots.
Symir, out. Dexter, recovering, but for all intents and purposes out. There WAS plenty of depth at the 1-2-3. Injuries and COVID stripped it.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
Symir, out. Dexter, recovering, but for all intents and purposes out. There WAS plenty of depth at the 1-2-3. Injuries and COVID stripped it.
Symir could barely get on the court last year when we didn't have a PG on the roster and DA is a total unknown. I wouldn't call that great depth.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
Symir, out. Dexter, recovering, but for all intents and purposes out. There WAS plenty of depth at the 1-2-3. Injuries and COVID stripped it.
At what level of play?
I am certainly willing to wait and see, but I am not automatically going to say Symir and Dex are taking big, huge, leaps from where they are now, this year, and next year. Cain doesn't have the handles, and has an inconsistent jumper, average defender, but he has the quickness, athleticism, length that I would like to see more of. He has certainly improved this season.
How much better would MU be right now with Symir and Dex? A little? A lot? Greg can shoot it and get to the line in limited sparked minutes at times, but he hasn't been healthy in years.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 18, 2020, 08:02:03 AM
He will have a good pro career, but not sure it will be in the NBA. While he IS big, he doesn't really PLAY big. And I am not sure he is a good enough shooter to overcome a lack of athleticism.
It will be interesting to see. Given the style of play currently in the NBA, it seems height and skill is more important than brawn. He can dribble, pass and hit the open 3 (43% from 3 last year). Athleticism is probably the biggest question mark, but he seems athletic enough to me relative to 3s or more likely 4s he would be asked to guard. He looked very athletic running the floor for a transition dunk in the first half. The NBA game is so different from college, it's always interesting to see how skills translate.
Don't blame the refs, we're above that.
This is what happens with a young team.
This team doesn't quit.
Nice to see that we don't just live and die by one player. Koby, Justin and Dawson were inefficient, but Theo and Jamal stepped up. The last three years it's been if one particular player has a bad game, we lose, end of discussion. More balance is better in the long run IMO.
Quote from: shoothoops on December 18, 2020, 08:49:21 AM
At what level of play?
I am certainly willing to wait and see, but I am not automatically going to say Symir and Dex are taking big, huge, leaps from where they are now, this year, and next year. Cain doesn't have the handles, and has an inconsistent jumper, average defender, but he has the quickness, athleticism, length that I would like to see more of. He has certainly improved this season.
How much better would MU be right now with Symir and Dex? A little? A lot? Greg can shoot it and get to the line in limited sparked minutes at times, but he hasn't been healthy in years.
I'd go do far as to say if Symir was available against Creighton we would have been likely to lose, as minutes for him and less for Greg or DJ or Koby would have hurt the cause.
Two months ago, we had plenty of depth at guard. Symir was outplaying DJ and therefore started the first few games. Dexter had a huge summer scrimmaging with pros and hopes were high. Dexter was knocked out by COVID for 4 weeks and Symir injured his toe. These are facts.
In my opinion, Symir can be a very good back up PG this year. 12-15 mpg, sometimes letting DJ slide to the two. Certainly better than Koby.
My hopes for Dexter for this year diminish by the day.
But our lack of depth at guard is not due to some failing of the coaching staff. Injuries and illness.
Quote from: tower912 on December 18, 2020, 09:16:03 AM
Two months ago, we had plenty of depth at guard. Symir was outplaying DJ and therefore started the first few games. Dexter had a huge summer scrimmaging with pros and hopes were high. Dexter was knocked out by COVID for 4 weeks and Symir injured his toe. These are facts.
In my opinion, Symir can be a very good back up PG this year. 12-15 mpg, sometimes letting DJ slide to the two. Certainly better than Koby.
My hopes for Dexter for this year diminish by the day.
But our lack of depth at guard is not due to some failing of the coaching staff. Injuries and illness.
We only got the highlights of Dex... and they were distributed by the guy who stands to make money from the appearance of success. It was basically a mix tape.
Tough to win when you are only getting 8 foul shots.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 18, 2020, 04:43:15 AM
This game is what happens when the core of your team includes two freshman, and almost-freshman in DJ Carton, Akanno and Torrance. One night you'll beat Creighton and the next night you slip on banana peel against thugs like Seton Hall.
It happens.
A year from now, this team pounds Seton Hall into the dirt, head first. They're that good. But they're maddingly inconsistent, which is why coaches often balk at playing freshmen. The turnovers last night are one example. I pulled what's left of my hair out over them. The sloppiness at times was too much to watch. That's a young team trying to find itself.
IF the team stays together. Wojo has some history of losing key guys to transfer/going pro/etc.. I hope this team stays together. Then they will be much better next season.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 18, 2020, 11:07:14 AM
IF the team stays together. Wojo has some history of losing key guys to transfer/going pro/etc.. I hope this team stays together. Then they will be much better next season.
Get older together. It would be nice to see
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 18, 2020, 11:07:14 AM
IF the team stays together. Wojo has some history of losing key guys to transfer/going pro/etc.. I hope this team stays together. Then they will be much better next season.
Honestly, they will be much better this season too. For example, Dawson has greatly improved already in rebounding. I'd like to see him get a few more moves around the rim and re-establish his confidence in his 3 pt jumper. Lots of guys figuring it out as we go. There's gonna be inconsistency, and as was the case last night, some nights where the shots don't fall and the ball doesn't bounce your way. But what the team doesn't lack is intensity and grit--and this season, that may be enough to keep you in some games.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on December 18, 2020, 11:09:54 AM
Honestly, they will be much better this season too.
What Jake says. We already are better than we were 3 weeks ago. I still think this team can be quite good.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 18, 2020, 11:07:14 AM
IF the team stays together. Wojo Just about every P6 coach has some history of losing key guys to transfer/going pro/etc.. I hope this team stays together. Then they will be much better next season.
FIFY
As tough a loss as it was, this team does not know what the word "QUIT" means.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 17, 2020, 11:50:14 PM
Carton absolutely has the ability to be an NBA point guard...if he can fix his handle. He's a wizard some times but other times he just begs to be turned over.
First of all, I absolutely love having DJ on the team, he is the best PG since Dom perhaps. I think he has the size and athleticism for the NBA, and the loose/careless dribbling is absolutely fixable.
The one thing that the could hold him back in my very unscientific opinion is his jump shot. Seems like his release is far too low to be successful in the NBA. I know it is possible to completely rebuild your jump shot, but I don't imagine it is very easy or a sure thing to do so.
Quote from: Slick on December 18, 2020, 11:39:15 AM
As tough a loss as it was, this team does not know what the word "QUIT" means.
There's no I in QUIT!
While I am disappointed with the loss, I am happy with the look of the team and to a possibly better future. Like our D a lot and hope we can extend it to 3/4 and full court on a more regular basis, but big improvement. Like the two big Freshmen a lot and really, really like Carton. IMO, the PG is the most important position on the court and we have a really good one. He can play both sides of the court, push the ball, makes good decisions and can score. I know I will get heat for this but he is Rick Pitino type PG and I love it.
Probably the most optimistic I have been in a long time that we might be turning the corner. Hoping he can add more pieces on recruiting front and land a top notch transfer or two for next season. I hope the young guys play a ton and looking forward to seeing them improve during the season.
Yea, in years past that's probably a game Seton Hall wins going away. One of those super fun 20 point losses.
Quote from: Goose on December 18, 2020, 11:42:16 AM
While I am disappointed with the loss, I am happy with the look of the team and to a possibly better future. Like our D a lot and hope we can extend it to 3/4 and full court on a more regular basis, but big improvement. Like the two big Freshmen a lot and really, really like Carton. IMO, the PG is the most important position on the court and we have a really good one. He can play both sides of the court, push the ball, makes good decisions and can score. I know I will get heat for this but he is Rick Pitino type PG and I love it.
Probably the most optimistic I have been in a long time that we might be turning the corner. Hoping he can add more pieces on recruiting front and land a top notch transfer or two for next season. I hope the young guys play a ton and looking forward to seeing them improve during the season.
This is kind of where I am too, Goose.
Carton, Garcia and Lewis are Big East players who already have improved since the season started and who have high ceilings. DJ will be the best player on the court in several of our games this season IMHO. We play the kind of D that can keep us in every game. This already has been an entertaining season with two big wins, and I think it can get better if COVID-19 cooperates.
Wojo had very good games against Madison and Creighton, a very bad game against Oklahoma State and in between against the others. Can he continue to improve? We'll see.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 18, 2020, 04:43:15 AM
This game is what happens when the core of your team includes two freshman, and almost-freshman in DJ Carton, Akanno and Torrance. One night you'll beat Creighton and the next night you slip on banana peel against thugs like Seton Hall.
Uh, thugs? 😒
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 18, 2020, 09:07:45 AM
It will be interesting to see. Given the style of play currently in the NBA, it seems height and skill is more important than brawn. He can dribble, pass and hit the open 3 (43% from 3 last year). Athleticism is probably the biggest question mark, but he seems athletic enough to me relative to 3s or more likely 4s he would be asked to guard. He looked very athletic running the floor for a transition dunk in the first half. The NBA game is so different from college, it's always interesting to see how skills translate.
Mamu had a lot of feedback on what he needed to do to reach NBA
https://www.nj.com/setonhall/2020/12/hall-of-famer-rick-pitino-nba-personnel-talk-up-seton-halls-sandro-mamukelashvilis-pro-potential.html
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 18, 2020, 12:38:23 PM
Uh, thugs? 😒
Tough and scrappy or thuggish and dirty.
Depends on your point of view, aina?
Though I do understand the dislike for the word 'thug'... since it does have racial connotations. I would suggest others find another adjective!
Quote from: MU82 on December 18, 2020, 11:30:02 AMWe already are better than we were 3 weeks ago. I still think this team can be quite good.
The numbers disagree. Our KenPom rating has actually regressed over the past 3 weeks.
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on December 18, 2020, 01:49:29 PM
The numbers disagree. Our KenPom rating has actually regressed over the past 3 weeks.
very easily could be sitting at 3-5 right now with @ X and Nova coming up next. thankfully we are not. will learn alot more about this team this time next week
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 18, 2020, 01:45:11 PM
Tough and scrappy or thuggish and dirty.
Depends on your point of view, aina?
Though I do understand the dislike for the word 'thug'... since it does have racial connotations. I would suggest others find another adjective!
In this situation I do not see any racial connotation, but I also fail to see justification for using the word for this SH team. Powell is gone and put they replaced him with a Harvard graduate.
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 18, 2020, 09:07:45 AM
It will be interesting to see. Given the style of play currently in the NBA, it seems height and skill is more important than brawn. He can dribble, pass and hit the open 3 (43% from 3 last year). Athleticism is probably the biggest question mark, but he seems athletic enough to me relative to 3s or more likely 4s he would be asked to guard. He looked very athletic running the floor for a transition dunk in the first half. The NBA game is so different from college, it's always interesting to see how skills translate.
Ersan Ilyasova is a good comp and had a great career
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 18, 2020, 02:16:22 PM
In this situation I do not see any racial connotation, but I also fail to see justification for using the word for this SH team. Powell is gone and put they replaced him with a Harvard graduate.
Was he the one with the full strength two-handed shove of cain?
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2020, 02:50:41 PM
Was he the one with the full strength two-handed shove of cain?
Source? Brew already covered this in a post yesterday, but there was nothing there on that play.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 18, 2020, 02:54:39 PM
Source? Brew already covered this in a post yesterday, but there was nothing there on that play.
So it is written, so it is done.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on December 18, 2020, 02:54:39 PM
Source? Brew already covered this in a post yesterday, but there was nothing there on that play.
I disagree that there was nothing there.
And I was genuinely asking if he was the one who shoved Cain, because I honestly don't remember.
I thought it was #15 Molson, though I can't say for sure. Spent a couple of minutes looking for it but haven't been able to find it. Not saying that it should have been a flagrant, but definitely a foul. Count Theo's basket and we get the ball again underneath. Would have been a good momentum swing opportunity for us.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on December 18, 2020, 04:26:00 PM
I thought it was #15 Molson, though I can't say for sure. Spent a couple of minutes looking for it but haven't been able to find it. Not saying that it should have been a flagrant, but definitely a foul. Count Theo's basket and we get the ball again underneath. Would have been a good momentum swing opportunity for us.
Definitely was a physical game and the refs let it go. Both sides tho. I think we are physical too so we dont want refs calling a foul fest but optimally want more fouls called than last game.
I think SH had like 3 team fouls late in the second half. We were low too. Optimal would be in bonus with 5-7min remain even if other team had it as well.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 18, 2020, 04:33:54 PM
Definitely was a physical game and the refs let it go. Both sides tho. I think we are physical too so we dont want refs calling a foul fest but optimally want more fouls called than last game.
I think SH had like 3 team fouls late in the second half. We were low too. Optimal would be in bonus with 5-7min remain even if other team had it as well.
Agreed here. Difference was the full-extension two-handed shove away from the play. I don't think it was malicious. But definitely a foul worth calling especially after review
Anyone remember Theo getting tossed for a shove?
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 18, 2020, 02:16:22 PM
In this situation I do not see any racial connotation, but I also fail to see justification for using the word for this SH team. Powell is gone and put they replaced him with a Harvard graduate.
Think about it this way. If SHU was a team full of blue eyed blonde guys would they still be thugs?
There's your answer.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 18, 2020, 04:40:51 PM
Think about it this way. If SHU was a team full of blue eyed blonde guys would they still be thugs?
No, they would be called Hitler Youth.
Yes, they lost but I am optimistic.
1) Cain has come alive. He is finally showing what he can do.
2) McEwen is playing much stronger and smarter than last year.
3) John is now a real offensive threat and can hit the three when necessary. Who would have thought.
4) Garcia and Lewis are going to get better and better. Great play for Freshman early in the season.
5) Last but not least Carton is a smart point guard who can shoot and pass. He will jell this team.
6) More heart than we have seen in years.
7) Shots did not drop and some bad turnovers but they played at another level in the second half against a very physical team.
8) This is a team we should be proud of. Al's teams often did not hit their shots. They beat you with defense, heart and desire.
Do not underestimate this team.
Quote from: Class71 on December 18, 2020, 05:33:19 PM
Yes, they lost but I am optimistic.
1) Cain has come alive. He is finally showing what he can do.
2) McEwen is playing much stronger and smarter than last year.
3) John is now a real offensive threat and can hit the three when necessary. Who would have thought.
4) Garcia and Lewis are going to get better and better. Great play for Freshman early in the season.
5) Last but not least Carton is a smart point guard who can shoot and pass. He will jell this team.
6) More heart than we have seen in years.
7) Shots did not drop and some bad turnovers but they played at another level in the second half against a very physical team.
8) This is a team we should be proud of. Al's teams often did not hit their shots. They beat you with defense, heart and desire.
Do not underestimate this team.
I agree with this analysis
Quote from: lawdog77 on December 18, 2020, 05:22:00 PM
No, they would be called Hitler Youth.
Now, THAT is funny. Well done, lapdog!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 18, 2020, 05:48:57 PM
Now, THAT is funny. Well done, lapdog!
Same to you JennysTap!
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on December 18, 2020, 02:14:02 PM
very easily could be sitting at 3-5 right now with @ X and Nova coming up next.
Very easily could be sitting at 8-0 right now with @X and Nova coming up next.
MU lost to a team that played better on the day. I'm not sure hall is a better team but they are long and strong and athletic and yesterday they made their shots. At the end of the season this one goes to OT or is a win.
Quote from: WarriorFan on December 19, 2020, 01:11:10 AM
MU lost to a team that played better on the day. I'm not sure hall is a better team but they are long and strong and athletic and yesterday they made their shots. At the end of the season this one goes to OT or is a win.
You're obviously unfamiliar with the way things go for us at the end of seasons.
Quote from: MU82 on December 18, 2020, 10:59:19 PM
Very easily could be sitting at 8-0 right now with @X and Nova coming up next.
Yeah butt, da Badgers are probably sayin', "how did we lose to those stiffs in Milwaukee," hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2020, 08:25:44 AM
Yeah butt, da Badgers are probably sayin', "how did we lose to those stiffs in Milwaukee," hey?
Da Badgers sayin dat or ewe, Aina?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2020, 08:25:44 AM
Yeah butt, da Badgers are probably sayin', "how did we lose to those stiffs in Milwaukee," hey?
So? Who gives a flying eff what those whiny M-Fers say after we rolled 'em?
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 18, 2020, 04:43:15 AM
This game is what happens when the core of your team includes two freshman, and almost-freshman in DJ Carton, Akanno and Torrance.
This. Also doesn't help that the program had to shut down for 14 days when one player came down with COVID. They will get better, they are getting better.
Quote from: lurch91 on December 19, 2020, 12:17:35 PM
This. Also doesn't help that the program had to shut down for 14 days when one player came down with COVID. They will get better, they are getting better.
Akanno is hardly a core of the team and Torrence didn't play.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2020, 12:24:18 PM
Akanno is hardly a core of the team and Torrence didn't play.
A
That's all you gleaned from that post? Nothing about the lack of practice time, that our 3 best players have been on the team for one semester, that our 3 best role players are just that and will disappear from game to game. Our most consistent player has been McEwen, while I appreciate what he brings to a game, he's not going to take games over for us and will the team to a victory. I can see Carton, Lewis and Garcia doing that eventually game in game out, but for the rest we have to wait for them to have that one in 10 game where they can't miss (like Elliot in the Creighton game).