I am not as bearish (I rarely am) as some about MU's guard situation for 20-21 if they fail to land an immediately eligible transfer. Sure, it would be nice to bring in a guard talented enough to start or take the lead, but failing that, some act as if things will be as bad as when Crean had to have Marcus Jackson bring the ball up against Western Michigan. Of course, my optimism is predicated on the pie-in-the-sky notion of good health for all 4.
All have size, all have played the point. I foresee Symir and Koby starting and playing 25 each. Greg 20. Dexter 10. Symir will play all of his minutes at the point. Either Greg or Koby will play the point when Symir sits. If, as I envision, the forwards are Bailey and Garcia, I am not worried about pressure as both handle the ball well and it is rare to have 4 defenders on the floor at the same time who can play man-to-man for 94 feet.
I won't hazard a guess yet what their record will be. Hell, I won't hazard a guess that there will be a season. But, if MU rides with the 10 already in the fold, I am more worried about defense than offense.
Reasonable, optimistic (but not overly so), logical take.
Shame on you, man. This is Scoop!
I'm guessing NIT. If there is an NIT. If there is a season.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 13, 2020, 03:09:07 PM
I'm guessing NIT. If there is an NIT. If there is a season.
If there is a world (JayBee'd)
The in-house guard situation is scary bad. Can't convince me otherwise. Symir may be a dude as an upperclassman, and I expect him to be better next season than he was this past, but he's certainly not going to be a go-to player next season.
Greg and Koby are best suited as bench players. No one knows what we have with Dexter.
That's it. That's the guard picture as we stand right now.
We BADLY need Carton (and a subsequent waiver).
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 13, 2020, 03:26:26 PM
The in-house guard situation is scary bad. Can't convince me otherwise. Symir may be a dude as an upperclassman, and I expect him to be better next season than he was this past, but he's certainly not going to be a go-to player next season.
Greg and Koby are best suited as bench players. No one knows what we have with Dexter.
That's it. That's the guard picture as we stand right now.
We BADLY need Carton (and a subsequent waiver).
Scary bad is starting a season with 3 guards and one of them is Chartouny. Or having Joe Chapman as the only healthy guard and therefore having Marcus Jackson bring the ball up.
This is a lot of unknowns and injury history. There is upside here.
The upside is that we haven't seen three of the four play significant minutes yet.
This is a classic glass half full vs. glass half empty debate.
Quote from: tower912 on April 13, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Scary bad is starting a season with 3 guards and one of them is Chartouny. Or having Joe Chapman as the only healthy guard and therefore having Marcus Jackson bring the ball up.
This is a lot of unknowns and injury history. There is upside here.
Meh. I don't really see it. I see a guy that looked over matched against higher level competition (Koby), and guy who has struggled to stay healthy and has been nothing more than an energy guy when he plays (Greg), an interesting PG project who is probably at least another year away from being a focal point of high major team (Sy), and an unhearalded recruit none of us have seen play (Dex).
I don't see the upside. I think Sy and maybe even Greg could be high very good CBB players down the road, just not counting on it for next season.
Quote from: tower912 on April 13, 2020, 03:29:44 PM
Scary bad is starting a season with 3 guards and one of them is Chartouny.
Yeah. Who's the Markus with this bunch?
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 13, 2020, 03:35:53 PM
Meh. I don't really see it. I see a guy that looked over matched against higher level competition (Koby), and guy who has struggled to stay healthy and has been nothing more than an energy guy when he plays (Greg), an interesting PG project who is probably at least another year away from being a focal point of high major team (Sy), and an unhearalded recruit none of us have seen play (Dex).
I don't see the upside. I think Sy and maybe even Greg could be high very good CBB players down the road, just not counting on it for next season.
I agree that it's smart to temper expectations of this quartet.
Still, when I think of "scary bad" Marquette backcourts of relatively recent vintage, I think of the one Buzz trotted out game after game after effen game his final season.
I mean, none of those 4 will shoot .071 from 3 and .442 from the line while averaging 30.8 mpg next season.
Quote from: MU82 on April 13, 2020, 03:57:36 PM
I agree that it's smart to temper expectations of this quartet.
Still, when I think of "scary bad" Marquette backcourts of relatively recent vintage, I think of the one Buzz trotted out game after game after effen game his final season.
I mean, none of those 4 will shoot .071 from 3 and .442 from the line while averaging 30.8 mpg next season.
Maybe "scary bad" wasn't the right wording. How about "under .500 bad"?
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 13, 2020, 04:02:17 PM
Maybe "scary bad" wasn't the right wording. How about "under .500 bad"?
Could happen, sure.
Or not.
I don't see them competing with a healthy Golden State backcourt. I think all have an upside.
Does anyone else believe so much of the slump from Koby is due to the injury he suffered? I saw some mention that his hand injury never fully healed but I have to think he has to spend his offseason just figuring out emotional control.
That being said, the wide unknown is terrifying for next year (in all worldly facets) but we need to look for some optimism.
Quote from: zcg2013 on April 13, 2020, 04:49:17 PM
Does anyone else believe so much of the slump from Koby is due to the injury he suffered? I saw some mention that his hand injury never fully healed but I have to think he has to spend his offseason just figuring out emotional control.
That being said, the wide unknown is terrifying for next year (in all worldly facets) but we need to look for some optimism.
I think skepticism is more than warranted. I don't think optimism is crazy, either. I think Sy has the tools to be a Golden Eagle. But whether he puts it together or not, I don't know. It's a great unknown
Quote from: zcg2013 on April 13, 2020, 04:49:17 PM
Does anyone else believe so much of the slump from Koby is due to the injury he suffered? I saw some mention that his hand injury never fully healed but I have to think he has to spend his offseason just figuring out emotional control.
That being said, the wide unknown is terrifying for next year (in all worldly facets) but we need to look for some optimism.
You could see him flinch from time to time. I think he went through a slump, injured the hand, and was never able to really regain his form.
And yes, all 4 are unknowns. So wariness is justified.
Quote from: tower912 on April 13, 2020, 04:52:15 PM
You could see him flinch from time to time. I think he went through a slump, injured the hand, and was never able to really regain his form.
And yes, all 4 are unknowns. So wariness is justified.
All 4 are not "unknowns". Greg has been here for 3 years. He has big trouble staying healthy and when he can play Wojo has decided he's a back up, even to a player struggling as much as Koby. Koby started 31 games for us and played big minutes. He was great in a few games, OK in a few others and bad to awful in a bunch. Symir shows some potential as a floor general but was so bad on D he played very little. Dexter wasn't rated highly out of high school and was redshirted.
A more honest assessment is we know quite a bit and most of what we know isn't encouraging. Wojo agrees - if he didn't we wouldn't be "teaching out" to pretty much every guard in the transfer portal.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 08:02:05 PM
All 4 are not "unknowns". Greg has been here for 3 years. He has big trouble staying healthy and when he can play Wojo has decided he's a back up, even to a player struggling as much as Koby. Koby started 31 games for us and played big minutes. He was great in a few games, OK in a few others and bad to awful in a bunch. Symir shows some potential as a floor general but was so bad on D he played very little. Dexter wasn't rated highly out of high school and was redshirted.
A more honest assessment is we know quite a bit and most of what we know isn't encouraging. Wojo agrees - if he didn't we wouldn't be "teaching out" to pretty much every guard in the transfer portal.
We probably would be "reaching (I assume) out" to pretty much every guard in the portal even if it was Symir and Greg who graduated and we returned Markus and Sacar. We have 4 guards. Even if we play 2 forwards and a center for 40 minutes for every game, you're still filling 2 spots with 4 total players and have 3 scholarships available. Injury to one guy while foul trouble to one or two in a game and you are in big trouble. Why would you not reach out to every guard out there and see if there's interest?
I was looking for a thread like this... thanks Tower for starting it.
Symir passes the eye test, has natural PG skills, and the best thing about Freshmen is they become sophomores.
Kobe struggled but also showed incredible bright spots. Whether he improves remains to be seen, but he was PG on a team that was headed for the NCAA tournament, was good against the press, has good size, and plays good D. Maybe he's a full sized Derrek Wilson in the end... who knows
Greg has great upside, can make the 3 and get to the rim. if he can somehow stay healthy would be a major contributor.
Dexter has had a year to develop... let's see.
Lots of posters are saying this team has "no" guards. I count 4, all with excellent upside.
The challenge is, will Wojo run an offense that doesn't rely on one guy taking (and making) all the shots? Can he develop something that gets people open? If the offense doesn't change, MU will really suck next year because giving any of these guys more than 10 shots per game is more than they can contribute... unless they are wide open layups, dunks etc.
Keys to the season:
1. Finx the fairy godmother who cast a spell on Koby for end of regulation and OT1 @ Xavier and get her on staff
Quote from: wadesworld on April 13, 2020, 08:18:02 PM
We probably would be "reaching (I assume) out" to pretty much every guard in the portal even if it was Symir and Greg who graduated and we returned Markus and Sacar. We have 4 guards. Even if we play 2 forwards and a center for 40 minutes for every game, you're still filling 2 spots with 4 total players and have 3 scholarships available. Injury to one guy while foul trouble to one or two in a game and you are in big trouble. Why would you not reach out to every guard out there and see if there's interest?
Do you honestly think Burton, Turner, DeJulius, Carton and Mane were/are being recruited as back ups? Wojo is looking for a starting PG and a starting SG because he doesn't think he'll win much with what he has. A preseason #77 ranking agrees. So do I.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Do you honestly think Burton, Turner, DeJulius, Carton and Mane were/are being recruited as back ups? Wojo is looking for a starting PG and a starting SG because he doesn't think he'll win much with what he has. A preseason #77 ranking agrees. So do I.
Who said that? You like to try to put words in people's mouths. You implied Wojo wouldn't be offering those guys if he thought Greg, Symir, Koby, and Dexter were studs. I'm fairly confident, though I can't be certain, that no matter how good those four are, four guards aren't enough when you have three scholarships to fill.
But hey, maybe if he thought those four were studs he'd just go after some scrub guards to keep a bench seat warm.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 13, 2020, 08:37:21 PM
Who said that? You like to try to put words in people's mouths. You implied Wojo wouldn't be offering those guys if he thought Greg, Symir, Koby, and Dexter were studs. I'm fairly confident, though I can't be certain, that no matter how good those four are, four guards aren't enough when you have three scholarships to fill.
But hey, maybe if he thought those four were studs he'd just go after some scrub guards to keep a bench seat warm.
If the 4 guards we had were studs Wojo would be recruiting a back up guard or two, not looking for an entirely new starting backcourt. And "those guys" would have had zero interest in coming in to play behind our "studs".
We have 4 back up level guards. If we get two more back up level guards we'll have 6 back up level guards. That will move the needle not at all.
We need back court guys who are BE quality starters. Right now we have no one who has proven he fits that description.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 09:20:01 PM
If the 4 guards we had were studs Wojo would be recruiting a back up guard or two, not looking for an entirely new starting backcourt. And "those guys" would have had zero interest in coming in to play behind our "studs".
We have 4 back up level guards. If we get two more back up level guards we'll have 6 back up level guards. That will move the needle not at all.
We need back court guys who are BE quality starters. Right now we have no one who has proven he fits that description.
So why would Wojo bother going after Michael Foster or Kendall Brown? Does he already not consider Osa or Garcia to be studs/starting caliber BE wings/forwards?
Regardless of how good Wojo feels about the players he already has on the roster, I'd hope he'd go after the best players he could.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 13, 2020, 09:23:52 PM
So why would Wojo bother going after Michael Foster or Kendall Brown? Does he already not consider Osa or Garcia to be studs/starting caliber BE wings/forwards?
Regardless of how good Wojo feels about the players he already has on the roster, I'd hope he'd go after the best players he could.
Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.
If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Do you honestly think Burton, Turner, DeJulius, Carton and Mane were/are being recruited as back ups? Wojo is looking for a starting PG and a starting SG because he doesn't think he'll win much with what he has. A preseason #77 ranking agrees. So do I.
But Lenny - Hath you no faith to "trust the process?" The 7th Year of the Golden Power Point was going to deliver the goods. We are on our way to being Duke, and it's a beautiful thing.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 09:49:44 PM
Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.
If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.
Lenny man, you continually kill it with your knowledge and reasonableness. I wish more people would listen to you instead of always trying to think everything is seashells and balloons. Too many people don't realize just how big of a blow today was for next year's team. Landing one of them was the difference between making the tournament or not. I mean, what are the currents guards upside?? Between them they average what?? 25-30PPG?? From 4 guys?? Good teams, or great teams have TWO guards that average that between them. It shouldn't take 4 to average that. The Guards MU has now, wouldn't be starters on any other team in the Big East, and they certainly wouldn't play even as big of a role for a lot of high majors as they do for MU. That's a problem...a major one.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 09:49:44 PM
Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.
If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.
Again, nobody said they're confident they are studs. Your claim was Wojo wouldn't be going after guards if he felt they were. My thought is that is flat out wrong. There are 4 guards on the roster. There are 3 scholarships available. No matter how good he feels about the 4 guards on the roster he'd be going after more guards this offseason. Personally, I hope those guards he'd be going after would be the best possible player he could go after even if he feels like the starting spots are filled. Apparently you think if Wojo feels he has the starting spots filled he should go after players that aren't great. Difference of opinion between us I suppose.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 08:02:05 PM
All 4 are not "unknowns". Greg has been here for 3 years. He has big trouble staying healthy and when he can play Wojo has decided he's a back up, even to a player struggling as much as Koby. Koby started 31 games for us and played big minutes. He was great in a few games, OK in a few others and bad to awful in a bunch. Symir shows some potential as a floor general but was so bad on D he played very little. Dexter wasn't rated highly out of high school and was redshirted.
A more honest assessment is we know quite a bit and most of what we know isn't encouraging. Wojo agrees - if he didn't we wouldn't be "teaching out" to pretty much every guard in the transfer portal.
Lenny, I do see how there is just enough unknown about each of the 4 -- especially the 3 not named Koby -- to give Scoopers who want to be optimistic a reason for their optimism. What if Greg comes in 100% healthy and can stay healthy? What if Symir takes the kind of step a lot of top-100 recruits do in their second year, especially when so much PT is available? What if Dexter is at least the next Sacar? Even Koby ... what if he settles down in his 2nd MU season and is totally healthy?
But yes, I agree with you that we do already know quite a bit about 3 of the 4, especially Koby. And we know that if at least a couple of them don't improve a ton, it could be a real rough season.
Because I'm a big believer in Always Be Recruiting and in worrying about roster fallout after great players are brought in, I do like to think that Wojo would still go after a stud guard or two even if he had a more settled backcourt. But I also think you are right that he wouldn't be going on an all-out, full-court press for a bunch of transfer guards if he was bursting with confidence about the guards currently on our roster. That's just common sense, and you did a nice job expressing that.
IMHO, we need at least one guard who is significantly more talented than what our guards have shown so far. If that significantly more talented guard turns out to be, say, Symir, that's cool. But that's asking a lot of him, so it almost surely needs to come from outside the program.
Having said all that, I simply refuse to work myself into a tizzy over something I can't control, as a few Scoopers have. (Not you.) It's basketball. It's important to all of us, but I'm not consumed by it. Sources say a few more important things are going on in the world.
I really do not know what to think about next year.
Symir needs to get physically stronger. Koby needs to get some confidence. Greg needs to stay healthy.
I think Dexter has a big East body, but he will need a year to gain experience.
What gives me hope is that we will not be so reliant on Howard. I find it interesting that the last three years Howard got injured during a Big East game (all on the road) and the team rallied to win all those games without him. We won at Creighton, at Georgetown and at Xavier. I believe, but I would have to look it up to be sure, that we also won the next games, which were at home without him.
Quote from: bilsu on April 13, 2020, 11:32:08 PM
I really do not know what to think about next year.
Symir needs to get physically stronger. Koby needs to get some confidence. Greg needs to stay healthy.
I think Dexter has a big East body, but he will need a year to gain experience.
What gives me hope is that we will not be so reliant on Howard. I find it interesting that the last three years Howard got injured during a Big East game (all on the road) and the team rallied to win all those games without him. We won at Creighton, at Georgetown and at Xavier. I believe, but I would have to look it up to be sure, that we also won the next games, which were at home without him.
You are 67% misremembering about the games following Howard's injuries.
Markus didn't play in the game after he got hurt at Creighton and we beat St. John's without him; got big games from Sam and Rowsey; Elliott started in his place and went 11-5-3 in 28 minutes. However, the next two seasons in the games after Markus got hurt, Markus not only played but played well. After Georgetown, he played 37 minutes and went 24-9-3 as we beat Providence. In the game after he got hurt at Xavier, Markus played all 40 minutes and had 31 points in a win over DePaul.
Your point is still well-taken, though. We did survive 1 full game and 3 partial games without him the last 3 years. When he was a sophomore, we had two other big-time scorers in Sam and Rowsey. When he was a junior and got hurt at Georgetown, we were very fortunate that GT was poorly coached and couldn't take advantage, but yes the guys (especially Sam and Sacar) stepped up nicely without him.
Maybe we will have more offensive flow next season, we'll get big-time contributions from a couple new players, and several Warriors will emerge from Markus' shadow to excel. The cool thing is that we'll get to actually see instead of speculate. Unfortunately, we have 7 months of speculation (mostly filled with Scoop angst and doom-and-gloom) ahead of us before then.
Quote from: MU82 on April 13, 2020, 11:07:12 PM
Lenny, I do see how there is just enough unknown about each of the 4 -- especially the 3 not named Koby -- to give Scoopers who want to be optimistic a reason for their optimism. What if Greg comes in 100% healthy and can stay healthy? What if Symir takes the kind of step a lot of top-100 recruits do in their second year, especially when so much PT is available? What if Dexter is at least the next Sacar? Even Koby ... what if he settles down in his 2nd MU season and is totally healthy?
If you are going to go full out, unrealistic optimism. Then sure. Things are GREAT next year!!!
I mean, we apparently have Pervis Ellison on the front line as well!!! All we need now is for Wojo to turn into John Wooden.
brewcity just tweeted an excellent summation of the problem:
Alan Bykowski
@brewcity1977
ยท
8m
Replying to
@AnonymousEagle
There's clearly been a big failing in replacing the Markus Howard sized hole in backcourt scoring. Tried to get Burnett or Davis & missed, Koby looks like an unsafe bet, Jones & Turner went elsewhere, now it's down to Mane or bust. Who's left? Darius Perry? Jonah Antonio?
---
I simply don't understand the optimism or the people giving Wojo a pass here. We have a woefully inadequate backcourt next year. Our two main candidates for PG were turnover machines, Elliott can't stay healthy and hasn't been consistent even when he is healthy, and then Dexter.
This isn't a recent problem either. There haven't been any guard transfers since Haanif. Wojo knew this was coming, struck out on all '20 targets, and now is down to what looks like one immediately eligible transfer target in Carton.
Fluffy.Wojo needs to go.People are dreaming if they think it is going to get better.This is the 7th year and it could be a very long year.Marquette needs to bite the bullet and pay the buyout.Hire Beilein
Quote from: Aircraftcarrier on April 14, 2020, 08:34:10 AM
Fluffy.Wojo needs to go.People are dreaming if they think it is going to get better.This is the 7th year and it could be a very long year.Marquette needs to bite the bullet and pay the buyout.Hire Beilein
Marquette aint paying a buyout in this economic situation. You can't rant all you want, it's not changing for awhile.
Then the University really does not care about the basketball program.Is that what you are saying?Are you happy with the state of the program?
Quote from: Aircraftcarrier on April 14, 2020, 08:40:19 AM
Then the University really does not care about the basketball program.Is that what you are saying?Are you happy with the state of the program?
I'm saying that Marquette is facing significant financial unknowns / challenges. It was in a bad place financially even before the pandemic, and is now looking at an even worse enrollment problem, a potential basketball season without paying customers, and an economy that may make philanthropy much more difficult.
Paying the buyout of a mediocre basketball coach will be far down the list of priorities. As it should be.
Let's see where everything is a year from now. Then we can have his discussion again.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 14, 2020, 08:47:39 AM
I'm saying that Marquette is facing significant financial unknowns / challenges. It was in a bad place financially even before the pandemic, and is now looking at an even worse enrollment problem, a potential basketball season without paying customers, and an economy that may make philanthropy much more difficult.
Paying the buyout of a mediocre basketball coach will be far down the list of priorities. As it should be.
Let's see where everything is a year from now. Then we can have his discussion again.
All good points. Hard to predict a once in a century pandemic hitting, BUT this is the consequence of "being patient," and rewarding mediocrity with contract extensions to "help recruiting."
I suspect most business owners would agree that you know within 6-12 months max IF a hire has "it." Wojo isn't high major head coach material. He's an assistant.
Recruiting against MU/Wojo is getting easier and easier. Marquette? Are you aware they haven't won an NCAA tournament game in 6 years under Wojo? Are you aware there aren't any players in the NBA currently that were coached/recruited by Wojo? Did you know Marquette hasn't finished a season ranked in the Top 25 under Wojo?
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 14, 2020, 09:25:24 AM
All good points. Hard to predict a once in a century pandemic hitting, BUT this is the consequence of "being patient," and rewarding mediocrity with contract extensions to "help recruiting."
Eh. Many programs do this. My guess is the buyout looked a lot more affordable when it was signed than it does now.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 14, 2020, 09:25:24 AM
All good points. Hard to predict a once in a century pandemic hitting, BUT this is the consequence of "being patient," and rewarding mediocrity with contract extensions to "help recruiting."
I suspect most business owners would agree that you know within 6-12 months max IF a hire has "it." Wojo isn't high major head coach material. He's an assistant.
Recruiting against MU/Wojo is getting easier and easier. Marquette? Are you aware they haven't won an NCAA tournament game in 6 years under Wojo? Are you aware there aren't any players in the NBA currently that were coached/recruited by Wojo? Did you know Marquette hasn't finished a season ranked in the Top 25 under Wojo?
Yet still bringing in top tier recruits. ::)
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 14, 2020, 07:32:13 AM
If you are going to go full out, unrealistic optimism. Then sure. Things are GREAT next year!!!
I mean, we apparently have Pervis Ellison on the front line as well!!! All we need now is for Wojo to turn into John Wooden.
So, you're taking one paragraph out of a longer post in which I acknowledged more than once that we could be in trouble with our guard situation next season?
You should be better than that, Sultan. Very hoopaloopy of you.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 14, 2020, 09:54:28 AM
Yet still bringing in top tier recruits. ::)
As of last summer/fall with Stan on the staff...yes. This spring? AMPLE playing time to sell, and so far we've come up empty.
Now, there is still some hope with Carton or DeJulius. Let's hope he can close one of those guys, or even the JUCO we just got involved with. The roster balance is a mess, and we have three open scholarships at present. Hardly the marker of a program in good shape.
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 14, 2020, 09:57:35 AM
As of last summer/fall with Stan on the staff...yes. This spring? AMPLE playing time to sell, and so far we've come up empty.
Now, there is still some hope with Carton or DeJulius. Let's hope he can close one of those guys, or even the JUCO we just got involved with. The roster balance is a mess, and we have three open scholarships at present. Hardly the marker of a program in good shape.
The JUCO was a class of 2021 kid, no?
Wojo has made a great effort to recruit top 25 players across the country and of course has been striking out. This bothers me, because while he is doing this he is ignoring players like the point guard from St. Catherine's.
I believe we would of had (maybe we still will) the recruit from St Catherine's, but he is now seeing interest from other top programs. Maybe MU should reduce its recruiting budget, which would force Wojo and his staff to concentrate more on realistic targets instead of chasing every pipe dream.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 14, 2020, 09:54:28 AM
Yet still bringing in top tier recruits. ::)
Exactly and I mentioned this earlier. The freshman signed before the season and the guys we're going after are immediate impact, experienced players.
It doesn't appear those type of guys are buying what Wojo has to sell anymore.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 13, 2020, 09:49:44 PM
Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.
If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.
I think Sy will be a stud next year. I truly believe he has been given full reign in running next year's offense, which will be forward oriented. Look for it to be more of an old Duke offense.
You want someone with a controlled head at the point.
That means no Koby.
Greg or Symir at the point.
Koby is good for 5 fouls and an occasional surprise. But minimize the ball in his hand.
Dexter is a huge unknown. It would be awesome if he could surprise us like Sacar after his redshirt.
Ah yes. Stan, the guy who kept the team together after Wojo left but it took up so much of his time he couldn't devote one second to player development or anything other than holding the hands of the players already on the roster to keep them at Marquette, is now gone. Wojo never landed a high level player before he came aboard and I'll just ago ahead and forget the idea we ever land another top 100 player at Marquette without Stan the Man.
I also forgot that it's absolutely impossible to get out of an NLI, so thank goodness our three top 100 recruits this very year, while it is very, very easy to recruit against MU, are stone cold locked into being at MU against their will.
:o
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2020, 02:28:43 PM
Ah yes. Stan, the guy who kept the team together after Wojo left but it took up so much of his time he couldn't devote one second to player development or anything other than holding the hands of the players already on the roster to keep them at Marquette, is now gone. Wojo never landed a high level player before he came aboard and I'll just ago ahead and forget the idea we ever land another top 100 player at Marquette without Stan the Man.
I also forgot that it's absolutely impossible to get out of an NLI, so thank goodness our three top 100 recruits this very year, while it is very, very easy to recruit against MU, are stone cold locked into being at MU against their will.
:o
I'll concede. You're right Wades. Wojo is crushing it on all levels! It is a beautiful thing. Almost Duke like, now that he has "all of his guys."
Quote from: Elonsmusk on April 14, 2020, 02:35:13 PM
I'll concede. You're right Wades. Wojo is crushing it on all levels! It is a beautiful thing. Almost Duke like, now that he has "all of his guys."
Not quite yet. But once he lands the 5'7" unathletic guard who can't shoot, couldn't guard my grandma, and will be a 24 year junior by the time he'd be playing for Marquette we'll be set.
Of course you'd be a huge fan of McCabe. The guy can dribble like he's playing on street ball, which has no functionality to actually winning basketball games but it looks dope in a highlight package so give the guy max minutes and he's Steve Nash!
Cluelessness galore.
The last time we had guards this unproven we had a 17-15 record. And that was with a frontcourt of Davante Gardner, Jamil Wilson, Chris Otule, Deonte Burton, Steve Taylor, and Juan Anderson.
My guess is the frontcourt probably is not a talented as that 13'-14' team.
I am very concerned. You need good guards in college basketball. If there isn't a quality addition this is barely an NIT team.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on April 14, 2020, 03:51:10 PM
The last time we had guards this unproven we had a 17-15 record. And that was with a frontcourt of Davante Gardner, Jamil Wilson, Chris Otule, Deonte Burton, Steve Taylor, and Juan Anderson.
My guess is the frontcourt probably is not a talented as that 13'-14' team.
I am very concerned. You need good guards in college basketball. If there isn't a quality addition this is barely an NIT team.
As structured, there is no way this an NIT team. We're a Greg Elliott injury (decent chance that happens based on historical data) away from needing to play walk-ons in the backcourt regularly. We have three role playing guards and a complete unknown in Dexter. I would sure think MU would be an attractive destination for a guy like Carton at this point, but several others have opted for other places. So who knows.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 14, 2020, 03:58:39 PM
As structured, there is no way this an NIT team. We're a Greg Elliott injury (decent chance that happens based on historical data) away from needing to play walk-ons in the backcourt regularly. We have three role playing guards and a complete unknown in Dexter. I would sure think MU would be an attractive destination for a guy like Carton at this point, but several others have opted for other places. So who knows.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Carton is good enough that he can start on most teams in the country. Given that, our available playing time may not be as appealing to him as it seems through our lens.
Quote from: panda on April 14, 2020, 04:01:21 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that. Carton is good enough that he can start on most teams in the country. Given that, our available playing time may not be as appealing to him as it seems through our lens.
Sure, he could start. But he's not going to "the guy" on most top 25 teams. He certainly would be at Marquette next season. If his goal is to get the NBA ASAP, that has to be attractive. Not to mention as system that just graduated a guard as a first team all american that had the ultimate green light.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 14, 2020, 03:58:39 PM
As structured, there is no way this an NIT team. We're a Greg Elliott injury (decent chance that happens based on historical data) away from needing to play walk-ons in the backcourt regularly. We have three role playing guards and a complete unknown in Dexter. I would sure think MU would be an attractive destination for a guy like Carton at this point, but several others have opted for other places. So who knows.
We wouldn't need to play walk ons. There are several current front court players that could play the 2G spot- Bailey, Cain, Dawson to name 3- so it isn't as extreme as you claim.
Sure, not ideal, but definitely better than walk ons. This is the point where someone jumps in and says Dawson can run the point!
We know wojo typically runs shorts rotations featuring his best guys. We also know that MU only really has one true 5 bruiser, at least from a defensive perspective. All the truly "need" is one of the guards to play PG and handle the ball 30 mins per game. Between Sy, Koby, GE, akanno they will have that too. Then you play 3 of the reminding 3/4 guys- Bailey, Cain, Garcia, Oso, J Lew- at the 2,3,4 positions and you're set, no walk ons needed!
Not seashells and balloons, especially from a depth perspective, but not disastrous either. It seems to me that Theos health and ability to play 25-30 mins per game is even more important than getting another stud guard (assuming wojo knows that no one is leaving.)
We all want another good player at MU but it's not as dire and gloomy as many make it seem
I'd take .500 for sure. Not where we want to be but this is the reality.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on April 14, 2020, 05:53:47 PM
I'd take .500 for sure. Not where we want to be but this is the reality.
.500 overall? I'll bet over.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on April 14, 2020, 05:57:57 PM
Get to Vegas my friend.
.500 overall is basically meaningless. DePaul (3-15, dead last in the conference) finished at .500 (16-16). Only Georgetown was overall below .500 (15-17), the other 8 were all over .500.
0-31. Damn.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 14, 2020, 06:10:01 PM
.500 overall is basically meaningless. DePaul (3-15, dead last in the conference) finished at .500 (16-16). Only Georgetown was overall below .500 (15-17), the other 8 were all over .500.
Very cool. Maybe he should've considered that when he posted that we'd be under .500.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on April 14, 2020, 05:57:57 PM
Get to Vegas my friend.
Not willing to put your money where your mouth is?
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Very cool. Maybe he should've considered that when he posted that we'd be under .500.
Not willing to put your money where your mouth is?
He should have. If he wants to bet more than you want to I'll take your side. An under .500 overall season for a P6 program is borderline disastrous.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on April 14, 2020, 03:51:10 PM
The last time we had guards this unproven we had a 17-15 record. And that was with a frontcourt of Davante Gardner, Jamil Wilson, Chris Otule, Deonte Burton, Steve Taylor, and Juan Anderson.
My guess is the frontcourt probably is not a talented as that 13'-14' team.
I am very concerned. You need good guards in college basketball. If there isn't a quality addition this is barely an NIT team.
I think our front court is more talented than 13-14 team, but lacks the experience. Wilson was very good. Otule was limited by having one eye. He had great size, but he had no perpetual vision on one side of the court. Gardner wanted to play forward, but he was not quick enough to do that. Gardner was great at scoring down low, but outside of that was not a great player. I refused to believe that our starting two guards next year will not be better than the Thomas/Wilson combo.
Quote from: bilsu on April 14, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
I refused to believe that our starting two guards next year will not be better than the Thomas/Wilson combo.
So let it be written, so let be done.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 14, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Very cool. Maybe he should've considered that when he posted that we'd be under .500.
Not willing to put your money where your mouth is?
I never said below .500. I think expecting more is unfair to this team. Wojo will be run out of town of the bar is the NCAA or NIT.
Quote from: WhiteTrash on April 14, 2020, 09:45:15 PM
I never said below .500. I think expecting more is unfair to this team. Wojo will be run out of town of the bar is the NCAA or NIT.
Fair enough. You didn't say we would be below .500. You said you'd "take .500." Usually when I say I'd take a certain record it means I'm pretty sure our actual record won't be as good as that record I'd take.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on April 14, 2020, 04:04:52 PM
Sure, he could start. But he's not going to "the guy" on most top 25 teams. He certainly would be at Marquette next season. If his goal is to get the NBA ASAP, that has to be attractive. Not to mention as system that just graduated a guard as a first team all american that had the ultimate green light.
He won't be "the guy" on a top-25 team at Marquette either.
Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.
Quote from: muguru on April 15, 2020, 07:33:53 AM
Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.
Yep. It would take a great coaching job by Wojo to get it there.
Quote from: muguru on April 15, 2020, 07:33:53 AM
Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.
Drugs are illegal in Wisconsin. This includes marijuana because it is a gateway drug to bath salts. If you're a fan of Marquette and live in a state where marijuana is legal, you've probably been overrun by crime and can't access a computer. Tough scene.
My weed consumption leads me to believe this team is a borderline tournament team as constructed.
Quote from: Uncle Rico on April 15, 2020, 07:44:40 AM
Drugs are illegal in Wisconsin. This includes marijuana because it is a gateway drug to bath salts. If you're a fan of Marquette and live in a state where marijuana is legal, you've probably been overrun by crime and can't access a computer. Tough scene.
My weed consumption leads me to believe this team is a borderline tournament team as constructed.
Which tournament?
Quote from: bilsu on April 14, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
I think our front court is more talented than 13-14 team, but lacks the experience. Wilson was very good. Otule was limited by having one eye. He had great size, but he had no perpetual vision on one side of the court. Gardner wanted to play forward, but he was not quick enough to do that. Gardner was great at scoring down low, but outside of that was not a great player. I refused to believe that our starting two guards next year will not be better than the Thomas/Wilson combo.
I agree with this.
We all loved Davante but he was about as one-dimensional as a player could be. He was very good at that dimension (unless going against a taller and quicker defender), but it was just one dimension. I like to think Garcia will be a much better all-around player, though as you say he might not be ready to be that as a freshman.
Jamil is one of the most frustrating Marquette players ever, capable of taking over games occasionally (VERY occasionally) but disappearing far too often. As a 5th-year senior, he was expected to finally realize his potential, but in 14 of our 32 games, he scored 10 points or fewer; when we desperately needed him down the stretch he had games of 3, 5 and 7 points; he only shot 33% from 3 and 67% from the line - pitiful for a guy who was considered a good shooter; he had double-figure rebounds only 3x the entire season. In many ways, Bailey is very similar. Maybe he can take that next step to be consistently good.
Theo is quite a bit better than Otule if he stays out of foul trouble (a big "if").
And any two guards we throw out there will be better than the two from that season who amazingly combined to play more than 60 mpg.
That team had Burton, JJJ, Taylor, Mayo, Juan and Magic on the bench, and that would appear to be much better than next season's bench as presently constituted. But Buzz didn't like to use his bench very much.
Buzz, obviously, is a much better coach than Wojo is, though he wasn't a very good coach that season.
Having said all that, we should be striving to be far better than Buzz's last team -- in the backcourt and everywhere else.
Alright... starts with 'National.'
Quote from: muguru on April 15, 2020, 07:33:53 AM
Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.
Maybe we are the ones that are not smoking
Same stuff was said a year ago when the Hausers left. I am reluctant to make a prediction for the 20-21 season because so much is going to be based on freshmen and guys with injury histories staying healthy. If everything falls into place, there will be a tourney bid. But if even a couple of little things go wrong, it could go sideways. I doubt everything goes right.
Quote from: tower912 on April 15, 2020, 11:52:07 AM
Same stuff was said a year ago when the Hausers left. I am reluctant to make a prediction for the 20-21 season because so much is going to be based on freshmen and guys with injury histories staying healthy. If everything falls into place, there will be a tourney bid. But if even a couple of little things go wrong, it could go sideways. I doubt everything goes right.
Yep. We didn't have much margin for error this season. We probably will have even less margin for error next season.
We will need the likes of Bailey, Cain and Elliott to not only stay healthy but to be consistently good. It's possible, as players do mature and get better. Think of Vander, Kaminsky, any number of other examples. But it's not very reassuring to have to count on getting something out of players who have not yet given it consistently at all.
I hate to bring up the Badgers, but last year at this time who thought they had a team that could win the Big Ten? I know someone will bring up that they have Gard and we have Wojo, but there weren't many on this board that had a high opinion of Gard then.
So just to mess things up. For those who view Stan as a god, I love Stan for sure, he has said that Lewis can be the second coming of Markus. In Stan we trust.
Quote from: wiscwarrior on April 15, 2020, 01:04:28 PM
I hate to bring up the Badgers, but last year at this time who thought they had a team that could win the Big Ten? I know someone will bring up that they have Gard and we have Wojo, but there weren't many on this board that had a high opinion of Gard then.
Several posters on this board were saying in January that Gard should be fired. Badger students were posting signs in dorms to fire Gard. I imagine posters on the UW boards were also wanting to fire Gard.
Quote from: tower912 on April 15, 2020, 11:52:07 AM
Same stuff was said a year ago when the Hausers left. I am reluctant to make a prediction for the 20-21 season because so much is going to be based on freshmen and guys with injury histories staying healthy. If everything falls into place, there will be a tourney bid. But if even a couple of little things go wrong, it could go sideways. I doubt everything goes right.
We were ranked #17 preseason in Pomeroy. We underachieved what he and most Scoopers predicted (some even saying addition by subtraction, it will give an MU "all timer" a chance to show his stuff, etc.) but still finished in the mid 30s. Unless we get Mane, Carton or DeJulius we are projected in the 70s next year. Expectations are lower for next season than they were in April 2019 for the 19-20 one.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 15, 2020, 03:32:32 PM
We were ranked #17 preseason in Pomeroy. We underachieved what he and most Scoopers predicted (some even saying addition by subtraction, it will give an MU "all timer" a chance to show his stuff, etc.) but still finished in the mid 30s. Unless we get Mane, Carton or DeJulius we are projected in the 70s next year. Expectations are lower for next season than they were in April 2019 for the 19-20 one.
If 31 is "mid 30s," sure.
And KenPom hasn't released any 2021 projections or rankings yet. Probably because the day to withdraw from the Draft hasn't even approached, let alone all transfers finding a new home or even entering into the portal.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2020, 03:44:44 PM
If 31 is "mid 30s," sure.
And KenPom hasn't released any 2021 projections or rankings yet. Probably because the day to withdraw from the Draft hasn't even approached, let alone all transfers finding a new home or even entering into the portal.
Pomeroy usually doesn't release until October, I believe. Last year it was October 20 when his first rankings dropped.
Not going with the status quo.
Get him eligible.
Quote from: muguru on April 15, 2020, 07:33:53 AM
Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.
Heard things like this the past few years and we keep on making it. MU, if there is a season, will be back in the tournament again for the fourth time in five years. That will not be good enough for some here.
Quote from: WarriorDad on April 15, 2020, 09:28:06 PM
Heard things like this the past few years and we keep on making it. MU, if there is a season, will be back in the tournament again for the fourth third time in five years. That will not be good enough for some here.
They would've been there this year, but because there was no tournament, they weren't. Just like Dayton didn't get a 1-seed, Marquette didn't get a tourney berth, even if they did what was necessary on the court to earn it.
If Carton is eligible for the upcoming season that is anything but status quo. My confidence level just raised significantly with a quality guard added to the mix.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2020, 07:43:24 PM
Not going with the status quo.
Hooray!!! Well done Wojo!! Assuming he gets a waiver, we've seen the last of Koby at the point. Hope he finds himself as a 2/3. Win/win.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 15, 2020, 10:25:34 PM
Hooray!!! Well done Wojo!! Assuming he gets a waiver, we've seen the last of Koby at the point. Hope he finds himself as a 2/3. Win/win.
That's a great point here, Lenny. Koby might not be thrilled about it, but it would make him a more valuable Warrior. He'd have a lot less pressure on him, he could kind of play the Lockett role, and I think he could do quite well.
Quote from: MU82 on April 15, 2020, 10:28:01 PM
That's a great point here, Lenny. Koby might not be thrilled about it, but it would make him a more valuable Warrior. He'd have a lot less pressure on him, he could kind of play the Lockett role, and I think he could do quite well.
I see you're point on the Trent comparison, but Koby is better than that and it should be considered a disappointment is that's the type of senior year he has.
Trent shoutout and likely little known fact is that although he only avg 7ppg and 5rpg in his one season, he had not one, but TWO double digit rebounding games in the dance, one versus Davidson in that amazing comeback with the Vander kiss and one versus Miami in the sweet 16. That's big dude work right there, and I'm sure a sweet 16 trip alone would solidify Koby as job well done at MU.
That said, Koby avg 15, 5, 3 both years at Utah st. He dropped down to less than 10ppg and 5rpg, 3apg this past season with his percentages plummeting from 46% to 33% fg and 42% to 29% from 3 from year one to year three. That's a massive drop, and obviously part of it is the transition to the tougher conference.
However, I think the other major part is the stress and emphasis that wojo tried to place on Koby being Robin to Markus' Batman from day one. I'd like to consider myself a neutral observer in the projo/Nojo bullshite, so much so that it kind of disgusts me to even get into it, but I do think that one of Wojos early massive deficiencies is forcing the issue with guys and trying to make them work whether it's succeeding or not. This happened with Koby and I think it hurt the team- wojo put him on the ball a ton in order to play Markus off the ball and Koby was gassed. You could visibly see him just being so tired trying his damndest to be a pg, which he is not.
It was too much and too soon from wojo. To his defense, wojo knew that the best path to success last season was a Koby/sacar co Robin to Markus, but he forced the issue and it hurt Kobys game. Other guys of note that he has done that with recently were Joey- I think he felt obligated to force the issue and play him more than he deserved and it backfired when baby Joey showed up- and BB, I think he's forced the issue last year w Bailey too. Jamal played well enough to earn more of those minutes.
Anyhow digression alert. My point is that I think Koby is better than he showed last year, and I think that MU needs him to avg somewhere in the range of 12-13ppg with his standard 5 boards. I think his percentages will be somewhere in between year 1 and 3, he will hopefully shoot mid 30% from 3 and low 40% from the field. That is substantially better than the Lockett role, much closer to the sacar type role from last year
Quote from: DoctorV on April 16, 2020, 11:09:50 PM
I see you're point on the Trent comparison, but Koby is better than that and it should be considered a disappointment is that's the type of senior year he has.
Trent shoutout and likely little known fact is that although he only avg 7ppg and 5rpg in his one season, he had not one, but TWO double digit rebounding games in the dance, one versus Davidson in that amazing comeback with the Vander kiss and one versus Miami in the sweet 16. That's big dude work right there, and I'm sure a sweet 16 trip alone would solidify Koby as job well done at MU.
That said, Koby avg 15, 5, 3 both years at Utah st. He dropped down to less than 10ppg and 5rpg, 3apg this past season with his percentages plummeting from 46% to 33% fg and 42% to 29% from 3 from year one to year three. That's a massive drop, and obviously part of it is the transition to the tougher conference.
However, I think the other major part is the stress and emphasis that wojo tried to place on Koby being Robin to Markus' Batman from day one. I'd like to consider myself a neutral observer in the projo/Nojo bullcrape, so much so that it kind of disgusts me to even get into it, but I do think that one of Wojos early massive deficiencies is forcing the issue with guys and trying to make them work whether it's succeeding or not. This happened with Koby and I think it hurt the team- wojo put him on the ball a ton in order to play Markus off the ball and Koby was gassed. You could visibly see him just being so tired trying his damndest to be a pg, which he is not.
It was too much and too soon from wojo. To his defense, wojo knew that the best path to success last season was a Koby/sacar co Robin to Markus, but he forced the issue and it hurt Kobys game. Other guys of note that he has done that with recently were Joey- I think he felt obligated to force the issue and play him more than he deserved and it backfired when baby Joey showed up- and BB, I think he's forced the issue last year w Bailey too. Jamal played well enough to earn more of those minutes.
Anyhow digression alert. My point is that I think Koby is better than he showed last year, and I think that MU needs him to avg somewhere in the range of 12-13ppg with his standard 5 boards. I think his percentages will be somewhere in between year 1 and 3, he will hopefully shoot mid 30% from 3 and low 40% from the field. That is substantially better than the Lockett role, much closer to the sacar type role from last year
All good points about Koby, I agree, he might be better next year with less pressure than last year. But I am still thinking that Mane comes and Koby rides the pines
and only plays 10-15 minutes a game. If he is on, let him play more but more often then not he was a turnover to happen.
Quote from: DoctorV on April 16, 2020, 11:09:50 PM
I see you're point on the Trent comparison, but Koby is better than that and it should be considered a disappointment is that's the type of senior year he has.
Trent shoutout and likely little known fact is that although he only avg 7ppg and 5rpg in his one season, he had not one, but TWO double digit rebounding games in the dance, one versus Davidson in that amazing comeback with the Vander kiss and one versus Miami in the sweet 16. That's big dude work right there, and I'm sure a sweet 16 trip alone would solidify Koby as job well done at MU.
That said, Koby avg 15, 5, 3 both years at Utah st. He dropped down to less than 10ppg and 5rpg, 3apg this past season with his percentages plummeting from 46% to 33% fg and 42% to 29% from 3 from year one to year three. That's a massive drop, and obviously part of it is the transition to the tougher conference.
However, I think the other major part is the stress and emphasis that wojo tried to place on Koby being Robin to Markus' Batman from day one. I'd like to consider myself a neutral observer in the projo/Nojo bullcrape, so much so that it kind of disgusts me to even get into it, but I do think that one of Wojos early massive deficiencies is forcing the issue with guys and trying to make them work whether it's succeeding or not. This happened with Koby and I think it hurt the team- wojo put him on the ball a ton in order to play Markus off the ball and Koby was gassed. You could visibly see him just being so tired trying his damndest to be a pg, which he is not.
It was too much and too soon from wojo. To his defense, wojo knew that the best path to success last season was a Koby/sacar co Robin to Markus, but he forced the issue and it hurt Kobys game. Other guys of note that he has done that with recently were Joey- I think he felt obligated to force the issue and play him more than he deserved and it backfired when baby Joey showed up- and BB, I think he's forced the issue last year w Bailey too. Jamal played well enough to earn more of those minutes.
Anyhow digression alert. My point is that I think Koby is better than he showed last year, and I think that MU needs him to avg somewhere in the range of 12-13ppg with his standard 5 boards. I think his percentages will be somewhere in between year 1 and 3, he will hopefully shoot mid 30% from 3 and low 40% from the field. That is substantially better than the Lockett role, much closer to the sacar type role from last year
Coaches play the guys they think will help the team win. They rarely do something just to make a point -- and even then it's usually just for a few minutes a game, or maybe a game or two in the season.
Case in point ... we know that Wojo loved Luke. But when he felt it would be better for the team for Heldt to replace Luke in the lineup, he did it.
If Wojo felt that giving some or all of Koby's minutes to Cain or Elliott or whomever would have made us better, he would have done it IMHO.
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2020, 04:13:35 PM
Case in point ... we know that Wojo loved Luke. But when he felt it would be better for the team for Heldt to replace Luke in the lineup, he did it.
Bad example, Mike. Luke was a Buzz guy. Whether Wojo "loved" him is anyone's guess but there are no facts to support it. On the other hand, Wojo loved Heldt like no other and in on record saying it. Wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2020, 04:22:18 PM
Bad example, Mike. Luke was a Buzz guy. Whether Wojo "loved" him is anyone's guess but there are no facts to support it. On the other hand, Wojo loved Heldt like no other and in on record saying it. Wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day.
Was Luke a "Buzz guy?" He was on campus for one semester before Buzz left, never took the floor under him as a transfer, and played for Wojo his entire Marquette career.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 04:24:38 PM
Was Luke a "Buzz guy?" He was on campus for one semester before Buzz left, never took the floor under him as a transfer, and played for Wojo his entire Marquette career.
He was a Buzz recruit inherited by Wojo.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2020, 04:37:40 PM
He was a Buzz recruit inherited by Wojo.
I mean I guess. He transferred here largely because it was close to home.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2020, 04:22:18 PM
Bad example, Mike. Luke was a Buzz guy. Whether Wojo "loved" him is anyone's guess but there are no facts to support it. On the other hand, Wojo loved Heldt like no other and in on record saying it. Wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day.
It was a perfectly good example, Lenny.
If Wojo only played Heldt over Luke because he "loved Heldt like no other," it's funny that Wojo played Heldt about 10 seconds a game when Heldt was a senior.
Had he lost his love for Heldt? Not at all. In fact, he wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day ... even though Matt made almost no contributions that entire season ... because Wojo didn't play him hardly at all ... because coaches want to win.
Wojo will not play Koby "just because." He'll play Koby because he thinks doing so gives the team the best chance to win. It's what coaches do.
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2020, 05:08:32 PM
Wojo will not play Koby "just because." He'll play Koby because he thinks doing so gives the team the best chance to win. It's what coaches do.
I see your point but I didn't particularly mean he plays the guys he "likes" more. On the contrary, I think your Heldt example shows that he doesn't let his love/admiration for a particular player affect his decision making with regards to minutes played (you could argue for good or bad on a case by case basis).
I more-so meant that I think he locks into a thought/feeling about the quality of a player and then said player gets more slack than others who are more of a work-in-progress. It seems that the guys that are higher rated and should be better get that slight preference because, and I assume here, in his mind he's thinking "this guy is bound to figure it out and become who I think he can become."
Don't crush me on the complete conjecture, and overall he does a nice job allocating the minutes, but my main point is that he really wanted Koby to work last yr and he force fed him at the 1 spot, which didn't do him any favors in the fans eyes
Quote from: DoctorV on April 17, 2020, 05:20:33 PM
I see your point but I didn't particularly mean he plays the guys he "likes" more. On the contrary, I think your Heldt example shows that he doesn't let his love/admiration for a particular player affect his decision making with regards to minutes played (you could argue for good or bad on a case by case basis).
I more-so meant that I think he locks into a thought/feeling about the quality of a player and then said player gets more slack than others who are more of a work-in-progress. It seems that the guys that are higher rated and should be better get that slight preference because, and I assume here, in his mind he's thinking "this guy is bound to figure it out and become who I think he can become."
Don't crush me on the complete conjecture, and overall he does a nice job allocating the minutes, but my main point is that he really wanted Koby to work last yr and he force fed him at the 1 spot, which didn't do him any favors in the fans eyes
Yes. When a lesser player makes one mistake Wojo sometimes handles it differently than when a star player makes the same mistake.
That is how sports are at every level. If Markus takes a contested 3 pointer early in the shot clock he will not get pulled. If Theo takes a contested 3 pointer early in the shot clock he will get pulled.
I'm guessing just about any coach in the country would handle that the same.
Quote from: MU82 on April 17, 2020, 05:08:32 PM
It was a perfectly good example, Lenny.
If Wojo only played Heldt over Luke because he "loved Heldt like no other," it's funny that Wojo played Heldt about 10 seconds a game when Heldt was a senior.
Had he lost his love for Heldt? Not at all. In fact, he wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day ... even though Matt made almost no contributions that entire season ... because Wojo didn't play him hardly at all ... because coaches want to win.
Wojo will not play Koby "just because." He'll play Koby because he thinks doing so gives the team the best chance to win. It's what coaches do.
Wojo sat an inherited player who was a starter for a very limited player who was his favorite and to you this is a perfect example of not showing favoritism? Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying Wojo did it because of his bias towards Matt/against Luke. Who knows? Just saying that picking your favorite in a close call is not an example (perfect or otherwise) of proving you don't favor your favorites. Sounds like logic your pal in Washington might use.
Had you originally used Wojo SITTING a very limited
player (Heldt) that he loved for a couple of newcomers your point would have at the very least supported your thesis instead of contradicting it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2020, 07:56:24 PM
Wojo sat an inherited player who was a starter for a very limited player who was his favorite and to you this is a perfect example of not showing favoritism? Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying Wojo did it because of his bias towards Matt/against Luke. Who knows? Just saying that picking your favorite in a close call is not an example (perfect or otherwise) of proving you don't favor your favorites. Sounds like logic your pal in Washington might use.
Had you originally used Wojo SITTING a very limited
player (Heldt) that he loved for a couple of newcomers your point would have at the very least supported your thesis instead of contradicting it.
FFS Lenny. Heldt started *7* games over Fischer that year. Fischer started 25.
In the two years they were on the same roster, they played 65 games. Fischer started 58 of them. (And Fischer started 19 of the 24 games he was eligible to play in during Wojo's first year.)
This is really a dumb argument. Heldt starting had nothing to do with playing favorites. It was because Fischer was struggling.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 08:08:23 PM
This is really a dumb argument. Heldt starting had nothing to do with playing favorites. It was because Fischer was struggling.
As I recall, Heldt was starting over Fischer the end of that year because of Fischer's issues staying out of foul trouble, not performance struggles. It was a way to protect Fischer from taking himself out of the game early.
And i was of opinion too that Fischer had a target on his back often, and foul issues were not always on him.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on April 17, 2020, 08:08:23 PM
FFS Lenny. Heldt started *7* games over Fischer that year. Fischer started 25.
In the two years they were on the same roster, they played 65 games. Fischer started 58 of them. (And Fischer started 19 of the 24 games he was eligible to play in during Wojo's first year.)
This is really a dumb argument. Heldt starting had nothing to do with playing favorites. It was because Fischer was struggling.
Fluff
With all due respect you are missing my point. People were arguing about whether coaches always play their best players or sometimes go with their "favorites".
To make his point that Wojo always plays his best guys, Mike cited the fact that Wojo sat down one of his favorites (Luke) and played Matt. Well Luke wasn't his favorite. Matt was. Saying he took out his starter to play his favorite guy and claiming this is proof Wojo doesn't play favorites is ass backwards. I'm not saying Wojo plays favorites. I'm just saying citing the one time you could make an argument that he did as your example that he doesn't is bizarre.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2020, 07:56:24 PM
Wojo sat an inherited player who was a starter for a very limited player who was his favorite and to you this is a perfect example of not showing favoritism? Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying Wojo did it because of his bias towards Matt/against Luke. Who knows? Just saying that picking your favorite in a close call is not an example (perfect or otherwise) of proving you don't favor your favorites. Sounds like logic your pal in Washington might use.
Had you originally used Wojo SITTING a very limited
player (Heldt) that he loved for a couple of newcomers your point would have at the very least supported your thesis instead of contradicting it.
It appears that we agree, Lenny, so I'm not gonna argue with you.
I may be wrong, but didn't the Heldt Fischer switch come after Wojo announced that every position was open and would be determined by effort in practice during the week off? JjJ got a DNP-CD and Heldt started after that.
Quote from: tower912 on April 18, 2020, 06:47:26 AM
I may be wrong, but didn't the Heldt Fischer switch come after Wojo announced that every position was open and would be determined by effort in practice during the week off? JjJ got a DNP-CD and Heldt started after that.
Correct
Pretty straight forward reasoning then and not some conspiracy theory.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on April 17, 2020, 09:42:13 PM
As I recall, Heldt was starting over Fischer the end of that year because of Fischer's issues staying out of foul trouble, not performance struggles.
I get your point. Truly do; but that statement is a little ironic.