MU's guards, status quo edition

[Elonsmusk]

Do you honestly think Burton, Turner, DeJulius, Carton and Mane were/are being recruited as back ups? Wojo is looking for a starting PG and a starting SG because he doesn't think he'll win much with what he has. A preseason #77 ranking agrees. So do I.

But Lenny - Hath you no faith to "trust the process?"  The 7th Year of the Golden Power Point was going to deliver the goods. We are on our way to being Duke, and it's a beautiful thing.

[muguru]

Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.

If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.

Lenny man, you continually kill it with your knowledge and reasonableness. I wish more people would listen to you instead of always trying to think everything is seashells and balloons. Too many people don't realize just how big of a blow today was for next year's team. Landing one of them was the difference between making the tournament or not. I mean, what are the currents guards upside?? Between them they average what?? 25-30PPG?? From 4 guys?? Good teams, or great teams have TWO guards that average that between them. It shouldn't take 4 to average that. The Guards MU has now, wouldn't be starters on any other team in the Big East, and they certainly wouldn't play even as big of a role for a lot of high majors as they do for MU. That's a problem...a major one.

[wadesworld]

Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.

If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.

Again, nobody said they're confident they are studs. Your claim was Wojo wouldn't be going after guards if he felt they were. My thought is that is flat out wrong. There are 4 guards on the roster. There are 3 scholarships available. No matter how good he feels about the 4 guards on the roster he'd be going after more guards this offseason. Personally, I hope those guards he'd be going after would be the best possible player he could go after even if he feels like the starting spots are filled. Apparently you think if Wojo feels he has the starting spots filled he should go after players that aren't great. Difference of opinion between us I suppose.

[MU82]

All 4 are not "unknowns". Greg has been here for 3 years. He has big trouble staying healthy and when he can play Wojo has decided he's a back up, even to a player struggling as much as Koby. Koby started 31 games for us and played big minutes. He was great in a few games, OK in a few others and bad to awful in a bunch. Symir shows some potential as a floor general but was so bad on D he played very little. Dexter wasn't rated highly out of high school and was redshirted.

A more honest assessment is we know quite a bit and most of what we know isn't encouraging. Wojo agrees - if he didn't we wouldn't be "teaching out" to pretty much every guard in the transfer portal.

Lenny, I do see how there is just enough unknown about each of the 4 -- especially the 3 not named Koby -- to give Scoopers who want to be optimistic a reason for their optimism. What if Greg comes in 100% healthy and can stay healthy? What if Symir takes the kind of step a lot of top-100 recruits do in their second year, especially when so much PT is available? What if Dexter is at least the next Sacar? Even Koby ... what if he settles down in his 2nd MU season and is totally healthy?

But yes, I agree with you that we do already know quite a bit about 3 of the 4, especially Koby. And we know that if at least a couple of them don't improve a ton, it could be a real rough season.

Because I'm a big believer in Always Be Recruiting and in worrying about roster fallout after great players are brought in, I do like to think that Wojo would still go after a stud guard or two even if he had a more settled backcourt. But I also think you are right that he wouldn't be going on an all-out, full-court press for a bunch of transfer guards if he was bursting with confidence about the guards currently on our roster. That's just common sense, and you did a nice job expressing that.

IMHO, we need at least one guard who is significantly more talented than what our guards have shown so far. If that significantly more talented guard turns out to be, say, Symir, that's cool. But that's asking a lot of him, so it almost surely needs to come from outside the program.

Having said all that, I simply refuse to work myself into a tizzy over something I can't control, as a few Scoopers have. (Not you.) It's basketball. It's important to all of us, but I'm not consumed by it. Sources say a few more important things are going on in the world.

[bilsu]

I really do not know what to think about next year.
Symir needs to get physically stronger. Koby needs to get some confidence. Greg needs to stay healthy.
I think Dexter has a big East body, but he will need a year to gain experience.

What gives me hope is that we will not be so reliant on Howard. I find it interesting that the last three years Howard got injured during a Big East game (all on the road) and the team rallied to win all those games without him. We won at Creighton, at Georgetown and at Xavier. I believe, but I would have to look it up to be sure, that we also won the next games, which were at home without him.

[MU82]

I really do not know what to think about next year.
Symir needs to get physically stronger. Koby needs to get some confidence. Greg needs to stay healthy.
I think Dexter has a big East body, but he will need a year to gain experience.

What gives me hope is that we will not be so reliant on Howard. I find it interesting that the last three years Howard got injured during a Big East game (all on the road) and the team rallied to win all those games without him. We won at Creighton, at Georgetown and at Xavier. I believe, but I would have to look it up to be sure, that we also won the next games, which were at home without him.

You are 67% misremembering about the games following Howard's injuries.

Markus didn't play in the game after he got hurt at Creighton and we beat St. John's without him; got big games from Sam and Rowsey; Elliott started in his place and went 11-5-3 in 28 minutes. However, the next two seasons in the games after Markus got hurt, Markus not only played but played well. After Georgetown, he played 37 minutes and went 24-9-3 as we beat Providence. In the game after he got hurt at Xavier, Markus played all 40 minutes and had 31 points in a win over DePaul.

Your point is still well-taken, though. We did survive 1 full game and 3 partial games without him the last 3 years. When he was a sophomore, we had two other big-time scorers in Sam and Rowsey. When he was a junior and got hurt at Georgetown, we were very fortunate that GT was poorly coached and couldn't take advantage, but yes the guys (especially Sam and Sacar) stepped up nicely without him.

Maybe we will have more offensive flow next season, we'll get big-time contributions from a couple new players, and several Warriors will emerge from Markus' shadow to excel. The cool thing is that we'll get to actually see instead of speculate. Unfortunately, we have 7 months of speculation (mostly filled with Scoop angst and doom-and-gloom) ahead of us before then.

[The Sultan]

Lenny, I do see how there is just enough unknown about each of the 4 -- especially the 3 not named Koby -- to give Scoopers who want to be optimistic a reason for their optimism. What if Greg comes in 100% healthy and can stay healthy? What if Symir takes the kind of step a lot of top-100 recruits do in their second year, especially when so much PT is available? What if Dexter is at least the next Sacar? Even Koby ... what if he settles down in his 2nd MU season and is totally healthy?

If you are going to go full out, unrealistic optimism.  Then sure.  Things are GREAT next year!!!

I mean, we apparently have Pervis Ellison on the front line as well!!!  All we need now is for Wojo to turn into John Wooden.

[The Sultan]

brewcity just tweeted an excellent summation of the problem:

Alan Bykowski
@brewcity1977
·
8m
Replying to
@AnonymousEagle
There's clearly been a big failing in replacing the Markus Howard sized hole in backcourt scoring. Tried to get Burnett or Davis & missed, Koby looks like an unsafe bet, Jones & Turner went elsewhere, now it's down to Mane or bust. Who's left? Darius Perry? Jonah Antonio?

---

I simply don't understand the optimism or the people giving Wojo a pass here.  We have a woefully inadequate backcourt next year.  Our two main candidates for PG were turnover machines, Elliott can't stay healthy and hasn't been consistent even when he is healthy, and then Dexter.

This isn't a recent problem either.  There haven't been any guard transfers since Haanif.  Wojo knew this was coming, struck out on all '20 targets, and now is down to what looks like one immediately eligible transfer target in Carton.

[Aircraftcarrier]

Fluffy.Wojo needs to go.People are dreaming if they think it is going to get better.This is the 7th year and it could be a very long year.Marquette needs to bite the bullet and pay the buyout.Hire Beilein

[The Sultan]

Fluffy.Wojo needs to go.People are dreaming if they think it is going to get better.This is the 7th year and it could be a very long year.Marquette needs to bite the bullet and pay the buyout.Hire Beilein

Marquette aint paying a buyout in this economic situation.  You can't rant all you want, it's not changing for awhile.

[Aircraftcarrier]

Then the University really does not care about the basketball program.Is that what you are saying?Are you happy with the state of the program?

[The Sultan]

Then the University really does not care about the basketball program.Is that what you are saying?Are you happy with the state of the program?

I'm saying that Marquette is facing significant financial unknowns / challenges.  It was in a bad place financially even before the pandemic, and is now looking at an even worse enrollment problem, a potential basketball season without paying customers, and an economy that may make philanthropy much more difficult.

Paying the buyout of a mediocre basketball coach will be far down the list of priorities.  As it should be.

Let's see where everything is a year from now.  Then we can have his discussion again.

[Elonsmusk]

I'm saying that Marquette is facing significant financial unknowns / challenges.  It was in a bad place financially even before the pandemic, and is now looking at an even worse enrollment problem, a potential basketball season without paying customers, and an economy that may make philanthropy much more difficult.

Paying the buyout of a mediocre basketball coach will be far down the list of priorities.  As it should be.

Let's see where everything is a year from now.  Then we can have his discussion again.

All good points.  Hard to predict a once in a century pandemic hitting, BUT this is the consequence of "being patient," and rewarding mediocrity with contract extensions to "help recruiting."

I suspect most business owners would agree that you know within 6-12 months max IF a hire has "it."  Wojo isn't high major head coach material.  He's an assistant. 

Recruiting against MU/Wojo is getting easier and easier.  Marquette?  Are you aware they haven't won an NCAA tournament game in 6 years under Wojo?  Are you aware there aren't any players in the NBA currently that were coached/recruited by Wojo?  Did you know Marquette hasn't finished a season ranked in the Top 25 under Wojo?

[The Sultan]

All good points.  Hard to predict a once in a century pandemic hitting, BUT this is the consequence of "being patient," and rewarding mediocrity with contract extensions to "help recruiting."

Eh.  Many programs do this.  My guess is the buyout looked a lot more affordable when it was signed than it does now.

[jesmu84]

All good points.  Hard to predict a once in a century pandemic hitting, BUT this is the consequence of "being patient," and rewarding mediocrity with contract extensions to "help recruiting."

I suspect most business owners would agree that you know within 6-12 months max IF a hire has "it."  Wojo isn't high major head coach material.  He's an assistant. 

Recruiting against MU/Wojo is getting easier and easier.  Marquette?  Are you aware they haven't won an NCAA tournament game in 6 years under Wojo?  Are you aware there aren't any players in the NBA currently that were coached/recruited by Wojo?  Did you know Marquette hasn't finished a season ranked in the Top 25 under Wojo?

Yet still bringing in top tier recruits. 

[MU82]

If you are going to go full out, unrealistic optimism.  Then sure.  Things are GREAT next year!!!

I mean, we apparently have Pervis Ellison on the front line as well!!!  All we need now is for Wojo to turn into John Wooden.

So, you're taking one paragraph out of a longer post in which I acknowledged more than once that we could be in trouble with our guard situation next season?

You should be better than that, Sultan. Very hoopaloopy of you.

[Elonsmusk]

Yet still bringing in top tier recruits. 

As of last summer/fall with Stan on the staff...yes.  This spring?  AMPLE playing time to sell, and so far we've come up empty.

Now, there is still some hope with Carton or DeJulius.  Let's hope he can close one of those guys, or even the JUCO we just got involved with.  The roster balance is a mess, and we have three open scholarships at present.  Hardly the marker of a program in good shape.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

As of last summer/fall with Stan on the staff...yes.  This spring?  AMPLE playing time to sell, and so far we've come up empty.

Now, there is still some hope with Carton or DeJulius.  Let's hope he can close one of those guys, or even the JUCO we just got involved with.  The roster balance is a mess, and we have three open scholarships at present.  Hardly the marker of a program in good shape.

The JUCO was a class of 2021 kid, no? 

[bilsu]

Wojo has made a great effort to recruit top 25 players across the country and of course has been striking out. This bothers me, because while he is doing this he is ignoring players like the point guard from St. Catherine's.
I believe we would of had (maybe we still will) the recruit from St Catherine's, but he is now seeing interest from other top programs. Maybe MU should reduce its recruiting budget, which would force Wojo and his staff to concentrate more on realistic targets instead of chasing every pipe dream.

[panda]

Yet still bringing in top tier recruits. 

Exactly and I mentioned this earlier. The freshman signed before the season and the guys we're going after are immediate impact, experienced players.

It doesn't appear those type of guys are buying what Wojo has to sell anymore.

[lawdog77]

Well, if you think Greg, Koby, Symir and Dexter are proven studs, no big deal. Odd opinions are the life blood of the internet.

If Wojo thinks they're studs, though, we've got a real problem. I'm comforted by the fact that he seems to want a starting backcourt different from the one he has now and is doing everything he can to insure it. Two "noes" today, hopefully a couple of "yeses" in the future. If not, it'll be a long, cold winter in Beertown next year.

I think Sy will be a stud next year. I truly believe he has been given full reign in running next year's offense, which will be forward oriented. Look for it to be more of an old Duke offense.

[NCMUFan]

You want someone with a controlled head at the point.
That means no Koby.
Greg or Symir at the point.
Koby is good for 5 fouls and an occasional surprise.  But minimize the ball in his hand.
Dexter is a huge unknown.  It would be awesome if he could surprise us like Sacar after his redshirt.

[wadesworld]

Ah yes.  Stan, the guy who kept the team together after Wojo left but it took up so much of his time he couldn't devote one second to player development or anything other than holding the hands of the players already on the roster to keep them at Marquette, is now gone.  Wojo never landed a high level player before he came aboard and I'll just ago ahead and forget the idea we ever land another top 100 player at Marquette without Stan the Man.

I also forgot that it's absolutely impossible to get out of an NLI, so thank goodness our three top 100 recruits this very year, while it is very, very easy to recruit against MU, are stone cold locked into being at MU against their will.

[Elonsmusk]

Ah yes.  Stan, the guy who kept the team together after Wojo left but it took up so much of his time he couldn't devote one second to player development or anything other than holding the hands of the players already on the roster to keep them at Marquette, is now gone.  Wojo never landed a high level player before he came aboard and I'll just ago ahead and forget the idea we ever land another top 100 player at Marquette without Stan the Man.

I also forgot that it's absolutely impossible to get out of an NLI, so thank goodness our three top 100 recruits this very year, while it is very, very easy to recruit against MU, are stone cold locked into being at MU against their will.

I'll concede.  You're right Wades.  Wojo is crushing it on all levels!  It is a beautiful thing.  Almost Duke like, now that he has "all of his guys."

[withoutbias]

I'll concede.  You're right Wades.  Wojo is crushing it on all levels!  It is a beautiful thing.  Almost Duke like, now that he has "all of his guys."

Not quite yet. But once he lands the 5'7" unathletic guard who can't shoot, couldn't guard my grandma, and will be a 24 year junior by the time he'd be playing for Marquette we'll be set.

Of course you'd be a huge fan of McCabe. The guy can dribble like he's playing on street ball, which has no functionality to actually winning basketball games but it looks dope in a highlight package so give the guy max minutes and he's Steve Nash!

Cluelessness galore.