MU's guards, status quo edition

[bilsu]

Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.

Maybe we are the ones that are not smoking

[tower912]

Same stuff was said a year ago when the Hausers left.     I am reluctant to make a prediction for the 20-21 season because so much is going to be based on freshmen and guys with injury histories staying healthy.     If everything falls into place, there will be a tourney bid.    But if even a couple of little things go wrong, it could go sideways.     I doubt everything goes right.   

[MU82]

Same stuff was said a year ago when the Hausers left.     I am reluctant to make a prediction for the 20-21 season because so much is going to be based on freshmen and guys with injury histories staying healthy.     If everything falls into place, there will be a tourney bid.    But if even a couple of little things go wrong, it could go sideways.     I doubt everything goes right.

Yep. We didn't have much margin for error this season. We probably will have even less margin for error next season.

We will need the likes of Bailey, Cain and Elliott to not only stay healthy but to be consistently good. It's possible, as players do mature and get better. Think of Vander, Kaminsky, any number of other examples. But it's not very reassuring to have to count on getting something out of players who have not yet given it consistently at all.

[wiscwarrior]

I hate to bring up the Badgers, but last year at this time who thought they had a team that could win the Big Ten? I know someone will bring up that they have Gard and we have Wojo, but there weren't many on this board that had a high opinion of Gard then.

[Newsdreams]

So just to mess things up. For those who view Stan as a god, I love Stan for sure, he has said that Lewis can be the second coming of Markus. In Stan we trust.

[bilsu]

I hate to bring up the Badgers, but last year at this time who thought they had a team that could win the Big Ten? I know someone will bring up that they have Gard and we have Wojo, but there weren't many on this board that had a high opinion of Gard then.

Several posters on this board were saying in January that Gard should be fired. Badger students were posting signs in dorms to fire Gard. I imagine posters on the UW boards were also wanting to fire Gard.

[Lennys Tap]

Same stuff was said a year ago when the Hausers left.     I am reluctant to make a prediction for the 20-21 season because so much is going to be based on freshmen and guys with injury histories staying healthy.     If everything falls into place, there will be a tourney bid.    But if even a couple of little things go wrong, it could go sideways.     I doubt everything goes right.

We were ranked #17 preseason in Pomeroy. We underachieved what he and most Scoopers predicted (some even saying addition by subtraction, it will give an MU "all timer" a chance to show his stuff, etc.) but still finished in the mid 30s. Unless we get Mane, Carton or DeJulius we are projected in the 70s next year. Expectations are lower for next season than they were in April 2019 for the 19-20 one.

[wadesworld]

We were ranked #17 preseason in Pomeroy. We underachieved what he and most Scoopers predicted (some even saying addition by subtraction, it will give an MU "all timer" a chance to show his stuff, etc.) but still finished in the mid 30s. Unless we get Mane, Carton or DeJulius we are projected in the 70s next year. Expectations are lower for next season than they were in April 2019 for the 19-20 one.

If 31 is "mid 30s," sure.

And KenPom hasn't released any 2021 projections or rankings yet. Probably because the day to withdraw from the Draft hasn't even approached, let alone all transfers finding a new home or even entering into the portal.

[brewcity77]

If 31 is "mid 30s," sure.

And KenPom hasn't released any 2021 projections or rankings yet. Probably because the day to withdraw from the Draft hasn't even approached, let alone all transfers finding a new home or even entering into the portal.

Pomeroy usually doesn't release until October, I believe. Last year it was October 20 when his first rankings dropped.

[wadesworld]

Not going with the status quo.

[tower912]

Get him eligible.

[WarriorDad]

Anyone that thinks this MU team, as currently constructed is anywhere near an NCAA tournament team..I want some of what you're smoking.

Heard things like this the past few years and we keep on making it.  MU, if there is a season, will be back in the tournament again for the fourth time in five years.  That will not be good enough for some here.

[brewcity77]

Heard things like this the past few years and we keep on making it.  MU, if there is a season, will be back in the tournament again for the fourth third time in five years.  That will not be good enough for some here.

They would've been there this year, but because there was no tournament, they weren't. Just like Dayton didn't get a 1-seed, Marquette didn't get a tourney berth, even if they did what was necessary on the court to earn it.

[MarquetteDano]

If Carton is eligible for the upcoming season that is anything but status quo.  My confidence level just raised significantly with a quality guard added to the mix.

[Lennys Tap]

Not going with the status quo.

Hooray!!! Well done Wojo!! Assuming he gets a waiver, we've seen the last of Koby at the point. Hope he finds himself as a 2/3. Win/win.

[MU82]

Hooray!!! Well done Wojo!! Assuming he gets a waiver, we've seen the last of Koby at the point. Hope he finds himself as a 2/3. Win/win.

That's a great point here, Lenny. Koby might not be thrilled about it, but it would make him a more valuable Warrior. He'd have a lot less pressure on him, he could kind of play the Lockett role, and I think he could do quite well.

[DoctorV]

That's a great point here, Lenny. Koby might not be thrilled about it, but it would make him a more valuable Warrior. He'd have a lot less pressure on him, he could kind of play the Lockett role, and I think he could do quite well.

I see you're point on the Trent comparison, but Koby is better than that and it should be considered a disappointment is that's the type of senior year he has.

Trent shoutout and likely little known fact is that although he only avg 7ppg and 5rpg in his one season, he had not one, but TWO double digit rebounding games in the dance, one versus Davidson in that amazing comeback with the Vander kiss and one versus Miami in the sweet 16. That's big dude work right there, and I'm sure a sweet 16 trip alone would solidify Koby as job well done at MU.

That said, Koby avg 15, 5, 3 both years at Utah st. He dropped down to less than 10ppg and 5rpg, 3apg this past season with his percentages plummeting from 46% to 33% fg and 42% to 29% from 3 from year one to year three. That's a massive drop, and obviously part of it is the transition to the tougher conference.

However, I think the other major part is the stress and emphasis that wojo tried to place on Koby being Robin to Markus' Batman from day one. I'd like to consider myself a neutral observer in the projo/Nojo bullshite, so much so that it kind of disgusts me to even get into it, but I do think that one of Wojos early massive deficiencies is forcing the issue with guys and trying to make them work whether it's succeeding or not. This happened with Koby and I think it hurt the team- wojo put him on the ball a ton in order to play Markus off the ball and Koby was gassed. You could visibly see him just being so tired trying his damndest to be a pg, which he is not.

It was too much and too soon from wojo. To his defense, wojo knew that the best path to success last season was a Koby/sacar co Robin to Markus, but he forced the issue and it hurt Kobys game. Other guys of note that he has done that with recently were Joey- I think he felt obligated to force the issue and play him more than he deserved and it backfired when baby Joey showed up- and BB, I think he's forced the issue last year w Bailey too. Jamal played well enough to earn more of those minutes.

Anyhow digression alert. My point is that I think Koby is better than he showed last year, and I think that MU needs him to avg somewhere in the range of 12-13ppg with his standard 5 boards. I think his percentages will be somewhere in between year 1 and 3, he will hopefully shoot mid 30% from 3 and low 40% from the field. That is substantially better than the Lockett role, much closer to the sacar type role from last year

[BCHoopster]

I see you're point on the Trent comparison, but Koby is better than that and it should be considered a disappointment is that's the type of senior year he has.

Trent shoutout and likely little known fact is that although he only avg 7ppg and 5rpg in his one season, he had not one, but TWO double digit rebounding games in the dance, one versus Davidson in that amazing comeback with the Vander kiss and one versus Miami in the sweet 16. That's big dude work right there, and I'm sure a sweet 16 trip alone would solidify Koby as job well done at MU.

That said, Koby avg 15, 5, 3 both years at Utah st. He dropped down to less than 10ppg and 5rpg, 3apg this past season with his percentages plummeting from 46% to 33% fg and 42% to 29% from 3 from year one to year three. That's a massive drop, and obviously part of it is the transition to the tougher conference.

However, I think the other major part is the stress and emphasis that wojo tried to place on Koby being Robin to Markus' Batman from day one. I'd like to consider myself a neutral observer in the projo/Nojo bullcrape, so much so that it kind of disgusts me to even get into it, but I do think that one of Wojos early massive deficiencies is forcing the issue with guys and trying to make them work whether it's succeeding or not. This happened with Koby and I think it hurt the team- wojo put him on the ball a ton in order to play Markus off the ball and Koby was gassed. You could visibly see him just being so tired trying his damndest to be a pg, which he is not.

It was too much and too soon from wojo. To his defense, wojo knew that the best path to success last season was a Koby/sacar co Robin to Markus, but he forced the issue and it hurt Kobys game. Other guys of note that he has done that with recently were Joey- I think he felt obligated to force the issue and play him more than he deserved and it backfired when baby Joey showed up- and BB, I think he's forced the issue last year w Bailey too. Jamal played well enough to earn more of those minutes.

Anyhow digression alert. My point is that I think Koby is better than he showed last year, and I think that MU needs him to avg somewhere in the range of 12-13ppg with his standard 5 boards. I think his percentages will be somewhere in between year 1 and 3, he will hopefully shoot mid 30% from 3 and low 40% from the field. That is substantially better than the Lockett role, much closer to the sacar type role from last year

All good points about Koby, I agree, he might be better next year with less pressure than last year.  But I am still thinking that Mane comes and Koby rides the pines
and only plays 10-15 minutes a game.  If he is on, let him play more but more often then not he was a turnover to happen.

[MU82]

I see you're point on the Trent comparison, but Koby is better than that and it should be considered a disappointment is that's the type of senior year he has.

Trent shoutout and likely little known fact is that although he only avg 7ppg and 5rpg in his one season, he had not one, but TWO double digit rebounding games in the dance, one versus Davidson in that amazing comeback with the Vander kiss and one versus Miami in the sweet 16. That's big dude work right there, and I'm sure a sweet 16 trip alone would solidify Koby as job well done at MU.

That said, Koby avg 15, 5, 3 both years at Utah st. He dropped down to less than 10ppg and 5rpg, 3apg this past season with his percentages plummeting from 46% to 33% fg and 42% to 29% from 3 from year one to year three. That's a massive drop, and obviously part of it is the transition to the tougher conference.

However, I think the other major part is the stress and emphasis that wojo tried to place on Koby being Robin to Markus' Batman from day one. I'd like to consider myself a neutral observer in the projo/Nojo bullcrape, so much so that it kind of disgusts me to even get into it, but I do think that one of Wojos early massive deficiencies is forcing the issue with guys and trying to make them work whether it's succeeding or not. This happened with Koby and I think it hurt the team- wojo put him on the ball a ton in order to play Markus off the ball and Koby was gassed. You could visibly see him just being so tired trying his damndest to be a pg, which he is not.

It was too much and too soon from wojo. To his defense, wojo knew that the best path to success last season was a Koby/sacar co Robin to Markus, but he forced the issue and it hurt Kobys game. Other guys of note that he has done that with recently were Joey- I think he felt obligated to force the issue and play him more than he deserved and it backfired when baby Joey showed up- and BB, I think he's forced the issue last year w Bailey too. Jamal played well enough to earn more of those minutes.

Anyhow digression alert. My point is that I think Koby is better than he showed last year, and I think that MU needs him to avg somewhere in the range of 12-13ppg with his standard 5 boards. I think his percentages will be somewhere in between year 1 and 3, he will hopefully shoot mid 30% from 3 and low 40% from the field. That is substantially better than the Lockett role, much closer to the sacar type role from last year

Coaches play the guys they think will help the team win. They rarely do something just to make a point -- and even then it's usually just for a few minutes a game, or maybe a game or two in the season.

Case in point ... we know that Wojo loved Luke. But when he felt it would be better for the team for Heldt to replace Luke in the lineup, he did it.

If Wojo felt that giving some or all of Koby's minutes to Cain or Elliott or whomever would have made us better, he would have done it IMHO.

[Lennys Tap]

Case in point ... we know that Wojo loved Luke. But when he felt it would be better for the team for Heldt to replace Luke in the lineup, he did it.

Bad example, Mike. Luke was a Buzz guy. Whether Wojo "loved" him is anyone's guess but there are no facts to support it. On the other hand, Wojo loved Heldt like no other and in on record saying it. Wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day.

[The Sultan]

Bad example, Mike. Luke was a Buzz guy. Whether Wojo "loved" him is anyone's guess but there are no facts to support it. On the other hand, Wojo loved Heldt like no other and in on record saying it. Wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day.

Was Luke a "Buzz guy?"  He was on campus for one semester before Buzz left, never took the floor under him as a transfer, and played for Wojo his entire Marquette career.

[Lennys Tap]

Was Luke a "Buzz guy?"  He was on campus for one semester before Buzz left, never took the floor under him as a transfer, and played for Wojo his entire Marquette career.

He was a Buzz recruit inherited by Wojo.

[The Sultan]

He was a Buzz recruit inherited by Wojo.

I mean I guess.  He transferred here largely because it was close to home.

[MU82]

Bad example, Mike. Luke was a Buzz guy. Whether Wojo "loved" him is anyone's guess but there are no facts to support it. On the other hand, Wojo loved Heldt like no other and in on record saying it. Wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day.

It was a perfectly good example, Lenny.

If Wojo only played Heldt over Luke because he "loved Heldt like no other," it's funny that Wojo played Heldt about 10 seconds a game when Heldt was a senior.

Had he lost his love for Heldt? Not at all. In fact, he wept describing Matt's contributions on Senior Day ... even though Matt made almost no contributions that entire season ... because Wojo didn't play him hardly at all ... because coaches want to win.

Wojo will not play Koby "just because." He'll play Koby because he thinks doing so gives the team the best chance to win. It's what coaches do.

[DoctorV]

Wojo will not play Koby "just because." He'll play Koby because he thinks doing so gives the team the best chance to win. It's what coaches do.

I see your point but I didn't particularly mean he plays the guys he "likes" more. On the contrary, I think your Heldt example shows that he doesn't let his love/admiration for a particular player affect his decision making with regards to minutes played (you could argue for good or bad on a case by case basis).

I more-so meant that I think he locks into a thought/feeling about the quality of a player and then said player gets more slack than others who are more of a work-in-progress. It seems that the guys that are higher rated and should be better get that slight preference because, and I assume here, in his mind he's thinking "this guy is bound to figure it out and become who I think he can become."

Don't crush me on the complete conjecture, and overall he does a nice job allocating the minutes, but my main point is that he really wanted Koby to work last yr and he force fed him at the 1 spot, which didn't do him any favors in the fans eyes