I don't know who said it, but a poster did make an argument for firing Wojo this season that made sense to me. If Shaka were to somehow keep his job at Texas, MU could very well be the top job available on the market this season. That does give me some pause as it could that theoretically mean that we would have our pick of coaches. And despite my skepticism at Keefe' Beilein carpet bombing last night, maybe if he is desperate to get back into college coaching (he certainly can afford to wait a year if he wants), we could land him. So what jobs could legitimately come open that MU would have to compete with? This is what I came up with:
Texas
Miami (FL)
Kansas State
Wake Forest
Utah
Georgia Tech (unlikely)
Oregon State (unlikely)
Boston College (unlikely)
Northwestern (unlikely)
Did I miss anyone? There's usually one surprise departure that no one is expecting (though I think the national media would say MU is that surprise departure if it were to happen). I don't think any of the big name coaches are looking at retiring. Maybe the NBA picks off one of the top coaches but that usually doesn't happen until mid-summer. If Shaka hangs on and if this is the competition, then we may be at the top of the coaching search food chain.
All this being said, I think the point is moot. Wojo won't be fired this season. I don't think he will leave for another job either. I think Wojo is more of the stubbornly prove them wrong type then the cut and run type.
Here's hoping I'm looking back at this thread in late March and early April feeling silly after a deep postseason run.
Minnesota
I was also going to say Minnesota. Also, lots of Indiana fans have been making similar coaching complaints for months...
"I think Wojo is more the stubbornly prove them wrong type than the cut and run type."
The morning the Hausers transferred, there was a thread about the possibility of it happening. IIRC, you dug in and gave a bunch of reasons why their transfer wouldn't make sense. And then that ten minute window occurred where everybody with sources found out before it was officially announced, and you posted something to the effect of, "I may need to take that last post back." And sure enough, right after that the news came out. Just saying.
To the point of your thread, even if the Texas job opens up, they'll probably go after someone like Beard before anyone else. So MU may well be in the unique position of being the most attractive job on the market.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 04, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
I don't know who said it, but a poster did make an argument for firing Wojo this season that made sense to me. If Shaka were to somehow keep his job at Texas, MU could very well be the top job available on the market this season. That does give me some pause as it could that theoretically mean that we would have our pick of coaches. And despite my skepticism at Keefe' Beilein carpet bombing last night, maybe if he is desperate to get back into college coaching (he certainly can afford to wait a year if he wants), we could land him. So what jobs could legitimately come open that MU would have to compete with? This is what I came up with:
Texas
Miami (FL)
Kansas State
Wake Forest
Utah
Georgia Tech (unlikely)
Oregon State (unlikely)
Boston College (unlikely)
Northwestern (unlikely)
Did I miss anyone? There's usually one surprise departure that no one is expecting (though I think the national media would say MU is that surprise departure if it were to happen). I don't think any of the big name coaches are looking at retiring. Maybe the NBA picks off one of the top coaches but that usually doesn't happen until mid-summer. If Shaka hangs on and if this is the competition, then we may be at the top of the coaching search food chain.
All this being said, I think the point is moot. Wojo won't be fired this season. I don't think he will leave for another job either. I think Wojo is more of the stubbornly prove them wrong type then the cut and run type.
Here's hoping I'm looking back at this thread in late March and early April feeling silly after a deep postseason run.
It doesn't matter if you're the best program available. What matters is if the right fit is available. MU would most likely hire another assistant or a young coach from a mid major who's turned things around. That's what they've always done historically. For those thinking an assistant will get the job......please. They'll let Wojo play out his contract before that happens.
I would be shocked at Kansas State opening. They literally won the Big 12 last year and had 3 straight tourney appearances (including an Elite 8). That has basically quieted the voices calling for his head pre-2018.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 04, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
I don't know who said it, but a poster did make an argument for firing Wojo this season that made sense to me. If Shaka were to somehow keep his job at Texas, MU could very well be the top job available on the market this season. That does give me some pause as it could that theoretically mean that we would have our pick of coaches. And despite my skepticism at Keefe' Beilein carpet bombing last night, maybe if he is desperate to get back into college coaching (he certainly can afford to wait a year if he wants), we could land him. So what jobs could legitimately come open that MU would have to compete with? This is what I came up with:
Texas
Miami (FL)
Kansas State
Wake Forest
Utah
Georgia Tech (unlikely)
Oregon State (unlikely)
Boston College (unlikely)
Northwestern (unlikely)
Did I miss anyone? There's usually one surprise departure that no one is expecting (though I think the national media would say MU is that surprise departure if it were to happen). I don't think any of the big name coaches are looking at retiring. Maybe the NBA picks off one of the top coaches but that usually doesn't happen until mid-summer. If Shaka hangs on and if this is the competition, then we may be at the top of the coaching search food chain.
All this being said, I think the point is moot. Wojo won't be fired this season. I don't think he will leave for another job either. I think Wojo is more of the stubbornly prove them wrong type then the cut and run type.
Here's hoping I'm looking back at this thread in late March and early April feeling silly after a deep postseason run.
I think this scenario (along with the collapse the last couple weeks) changes MU's approach. I think they're much more inclined to start putting together a short list of candidates and putting feelers out there. Also, it sounds like Beilein is pretty serious about getting back into NCAA. If he's interested in talking, they've got to explore that avenue.
Quote from: LAZER on March 04, 2020, 09:20:39 AM
Minnesota
Quote from: MUDPT on March 04, 2020, 09:21:40 AM
I was also going to say Minnesota. Also, lots of Indiana fans have been making similar coaching complaints for months...
Minnesota is a good catch. Tough break for Little Richard, I think he has a good team this season but is caught in a very very good year for the B1G.
Indiana I can't see. Their fans will complain about anything.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 04, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
I would be shocked at Kansas State opening. They literally won the Big 12 last year and had 3 straight tourney appearances (including an Elite 8). That has basically quieted the voices calling for his head pre-2018.
You are probably right. I should have put an "unlikely" by them. My impression of them was that they had been wanting to get rid of Bruce Weber for a year or two but needed a bad year from him in order to do it.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 04, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
I would be shocked at Kansas State opening. They literally won the Big 12 last year and had 3 straight tourney appearances (including an Elite 8). That has basically quieted the voices calling for his head pre-2018.
Would this be the time the Weber finally comes back to Milwaukee?
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 09:23:56 AM
"I think Wojo is more the stubbornly prove them wrong type than the cut and run type."
The morning the Hausers transferred, there was a thread about the possibility of it happening. IIRC, you dug in and gave a bunch of reasons why their transfer wouldn't make sense. And then that ten minute window occurred where everybody with sources found out before it was officially announced, and you posted something to the effect of, "I may need to take that last post back." And sure enough, right after that the news came out. Just saying.
I'm not sure what one has to do with the other.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 04, 2020, 09:38:13 AM
Would this be the time the Weber finally comes back to Milwaukee?
NO
I've been a quiet supporter of Wojo, and really didn't see the point in firing the guy based on the fact we'd likely just get another up and comer and have another 3-4 year rebuilding process. But I am turning. This is a crap show right now, and last night was inexcusable. I frankly don't think there is enough time to turn this barge around before the NCAAT. We'll get there - and likely a floor of a 10 seed with two more losses, but my expectations for any sort of run are now zilch.
That being said, I highly doubt Beilen or any other needle moving coach is coming to Milwaukee. If it were to happen (still an HUGE if in my mind), it is going to be a TJ Otzelberger, Niko Medved, or Craig Smith type. And then we're in for another shitty half decade. Hard for me to get too excited about that.
Give it to Stan.
He knows the program, the culture, the players and the recruits. I have a limited data set but he sounds like he can coach - actually teaching as opposed to the endless cliches we have been hearing. Not an expert at all, but from what I have seen and heard, he looks like a real coach.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 10:05:23 AM
Give it to Stan.
He knows the program, the culture, the players and the recruits. I have a limited data set but he sounds like a coach - actually teaching as opposed to the endless cliches we have been hearing. Not an expert at all, but from what I have seen and heard, he looks like a real coach.
Sounds like a coach or looks like a coach isn't something you hang your hat on. Then again, many people are susceptible to image vs. reality.
Quote from: MikeDeanesDarkGlasses on March 04, 2020, 10:09:58 AM
Sounds like a coach or looks like a coach isn't something you hang your hat on. Then again, many people are susceptible to image vs. reality.
Very valid point, as proven by our current coaching situation.
I edited my post. Thank you for pointing out my poor choice of phrase.
Haven't there been rumors of Jay Wright to the Knicks? Wouldn't be surprised if Cal left either.
I'd be cool with TJ. But everything else looks kinda meh right now, so I'd rather stick with the meh we know and hope Wojo can keep progressing with next years class.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 04, 2020, 09:38:13 AM
Would this be the time the Weber finally comes back to Milwaukee?
Would you trade Wojo for Weber? Would Kansas St fans?
I'm not advocating or promoting, but going off of past searches and the searches that our current leadership has undergone with head coaches, anyone thinking we would go after a proven, successful head coach at the major level is fooling themselves. If anything, we would likely hire an experienced, successful head coach from a lower conference (at best). In the last year, Scholl has hired Megan Duffy (Women's Basketball), Andrew Stimmel (Men's Lacrosse) and Frank Pelaez (Women's Soccer); Stimmel and Pelaez had prior MU connections as assistant coaches, and Duffy had a connection to Scholl as a graduate of Notre Dame. Each not only had been a part of successful, winning programs when they were hired, but they also had Catholic backgrounds at prior stops (Duffy - ND/SJU; Stimmel - MU; Pelaez - MU/Loyola-CHI).
My guess is that a hypothetical pool would include Brian Wardle (MU alum), Porter Moser (success at Loyola), or T. J. Otzelberger (Milwaukee native).
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 10:05:23 AM
Give it to Stan.
He knows the program, the culture, the players and the recruits. I have a limited data set but he sounds like he can coach - actually teaching as opposed to the endless cliches we have been hearing. Not an expert at all, but from what I have seen and heard, he looks like a real coach.
yeah, hiring the top assistant of a coach you've just fired because he "looks the part" screams "high major"
Quote from: SaveOD238 on March 04, 2020, 10:31:00 AM
Would you trade Wojo for Weber? Would Kansas St fans?
I'm not advocating for weber, i just know that he's been interested in the MU job for a long time.
He's an old meh, IMO.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 04, 2020, 11:01:06 AM
I'm not advocating or promoting, but going off of past searches and the searches that our current leadership has undergone with head coaches, anyone thinking we would go after a proven, successful head coach at the major level is fooling themselves. If anything, we would likely hire an experienced, successful head coach from a lower conference (at best). In the last year, Scholl has hired Megan Duffy (Women's Basketball), Andrew Stimmel (Men's Lacrosse) and Frank Pelaez (Women's Soccer); Stimmel and Pelaez had prior MU connections as assistant coaches, and Duffy had a connection to Scholl as a graduate of Notre Dame. Each not only had been a part of successful, winning programs when they were hired, but they also had Catholic backgrounds at prior stops (Duffy - ND/SJU; Stimmel - MU; Pelaez - MU/Loyola-CHI).
My guess is that a hypothetical pool would include Brian Wardle (MU alum), Porter Moser (success at Loyola), or T. J. Otzelberger (Milwaukee native).
Interesting read on the situation. Maybe Scholl would look at an assistant from ND? Rod Balanis fits the bill.
Or, Martin Inglelsby. Former Assistant at Notre Dame from 09-16, current Head Coach at Delaware where he has improved the team every year for 4 years.
I think it may not be wise to assume Scholl would run a men's basketball search similar to one where the revenues are much less significant.
I would be VERY curious to know what the biggest donors to the program are thinking/feeling right now, and just how much sway they might have with Lovell/Scholl.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 04, 2020, 11:03:23 AM
yeah, hiring the top assistant of a coach you've just fired because he "looks the part" screams "high major"
The last unknown assistant we hired did pretty well until someone screwed with his happy.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 11:45:39 AM
The last unknown assistant we hired did pretty well until someone screwed with his happy.
Meh, arguably the biggest mistake in program history. Certainly in my time as a fan and it's not close.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 11:49:48 AM
Meh, arguably the biggest mistake in program history. Certainly in my time as a fan and it's not close.
Screwing with his happy(I 1000% agree), or hiring him to begin with??
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 11:49:48 AM
Meh, arguably the biggest mistake in program history. Certainly in my time as a fan and it's not close.
Buzz didn't end well but biggest mistake in program history?
Bob Dukiet owns that title, imo.
Quote from: asdfasdf on March 04, 2020, 11:31:21 AM
Or, Martin Inglelsby. Former Assistant at Notre Dame from 09-16, current Head Coach at Delaware where he has improved the team every year for 4 years.
Plus he has a gelled side part, which is probably high on the list
Quote from: muguru on March 04, 2020, 12:01:44 PM
Screwing with his happy(I 1000% agree), or hiring him to begin with??
I think he means hiring him to begin with. I won't go as far as Brew because Buzz delivered three memorable tournament runs, but I don't think he was ever staying at MU regardless of "his happy".
He wanted to get to a school in Texas. He accomplished that.
Quote from: asdfasdf on March 04, 2020, 11:31:21 AM
Or, Martin Inglelsby. Former Assistant at Notre Dame from 09-16, current Head Coach at Delaware where he has improved the team every year for 4 years.
You can't replace Wojo with a guy like that.
Quote from: muguru on March 04, 2020, 11:45:05 AM
I would be VERY curious to know what the biggest donors to the program are thinking/feeling right now, and just how much sway they might have with Lovell/Scholl.
I've been curious about this all day too. It's one things for basketball fans on a message board to complain to one another about the status of the program; it's probably another if the high rollers/money backers begin/have done the same things too.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 12:02:02 PM
Buzz didn't end well but biggest mistake in program history?
Bob Dukiet owns that title, imo.
Nope, because we recovered from Dukiet relatively quickly. If we don't hire Buzz, we hire Tony Bennett. And unlike Buzz, he likely would've stayed. Put TB in here for the past 11 years and we'd be in a vastly different place.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 04, 2020, 11:43:37 AM
I think it may not be wise to assume Scholl would run a men's basketball search similar to one where the revenues are much less significant.
Let's look at the institution as a whole, then, from a historical perspective:
Wojo - hired as an assistant at Duke
Buzz - hired as an assistant at Marquette
Crean - hired as an assistant at MSU
Deane - hired as head coach at Siena
O'Neill - hired as assistant at Arizona
Dukiet - hired as head coach at St. Peter's
Majerus - hired as assistant at MU
Hank - hired as assistant at MU
Al - hired as head coach at Belmont Abbey
Again, what gives anyone a belief that MU would actively hire-away a proven/successful head coach from a major program? Historical results don't show that. Before Wojo was hired, Shaka was rumored as the target (he was coming from a current A-10 program, which just got plucked from the Colonial Athletic Association - VCU).
Many of us won't like it, but it is what it is. We aren't the type of program to buy-away a proven/successful coach from a major program. We invest in up-and-comers; some are hits, some are misses, but I doubt that strategy will change even after Wojo leaves (whether this Spring or in any future season).
Isn't Greg Gard getting fired?
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 04, 2020, 12:28:19 PM
Let's look at the institution as a whole, then, from a historical perspective:
Wojo - hired as an assistant at Duke
Buzz - hired as an assistant at Marquette
Crean - hired as an assistant at MSU
Deane - hired as head coach at Siena
O'Neill - hired as assistant at Arizona
Dukiet - hired as head coach at St. Peter's
Majerus - hired as assistant at MU
Hank - hired as assistant at MU
Al - hired as head coach at Belmont Abbey
Again, what gives anyone a belief that MU would actively hire-away a proven/successful head coach from a major program? Historical results don't show that. Before Wojo was hired, Shaka was rumored as the target (he was coming from a current A-10 program, which just got plucked from the Colonial Athletic Association - VCU).
Many of us won't like it, but it is what it is. We aren't the type of program to buy-away a proven/successful coach from a major program. We invest in up-and-comers; some are hits, some are misses, but I doubt that strategy will change even after Wojo leaves (whether this Spring or in any future season).
Has anyone suggested any active P6 head coaches as potential targets?
Quote from: LAZER on March 04, 2020, 12:36:48 PM
Has anyone suggested any active P6 head coaches as potential targets?
Not sure, but Steve Pikiell would be high on my list of people to call.
Bring in Bennett, UVA is down, he's won there, nothing more to see. And...Sam can follow him back 😳
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 12:41:15 PM
Not sure, but Steve Pikiell would be high on my list of people to call.
Pikiell just signed an extension at Rutgers, I think.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 12:41:15 PM
Not sure, but Steve Pikiell would be high on my list of people to call.
He just got a nice extension and he's bringing his whole team back next year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 12:21:25 PM
Nope, because we recovered from Dukiet relatively quickly. If we don't hire Buzz, we hire Tony Bennett. And unlike Buzz, he likely would've stayed. Put TB in here for the past 11 years and we'd be in a vastly different place.
We hit a home run in getting KO to revive the program after Dukiet - that was huge.
Was TB really interested? I don't remember that.
And he wouldn't leave Rutgers to come to Marquette anyway. He's an east coast guy.
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 12:57:32 PM
We hit a home run in getting KO to revive the program after Dukiet - that was huge.
Was TB really interested? I don't remember that.
He was.
The only P6 head coaches that would be interested in MU are those who are either desperate for a change for job reasons or those at the couple of places where Marquette would be a significant enough upgrade. For instance, Washington State.
Might the Syracuse job open up? If so, that might be appealing to other coaches on the move. At the same time, it might be the kind of place Wojo could land (similar to Wake Forest, though with better history).
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 12:21:25 PM
Nope, because we recovered from Dukiet relatively quickly. If we don't hire Buzz, we hire Tony Bennett. And unlike Buzz, he likely would've stayed. Put TB in here for the past 11 years and we'd be in a vastly different place.
Buzz led us to three straight Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight. If hiring him was a mistake, I'll take two.
To say that Bennett "likely would've stayed" at Marquette is pure speculation. The UCLA, Texas, Florida, Michigan, Indiana, Louisville, and Ohio State jobs have all opened up since 2008. Bennett would've been a candidate for every one of those if he'd been at MU.
I understand folks are butt hurt because Wojo didn't get them a pony last night, but calling Buzz's hire "the biggest mistake in program history" is laughable.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 01:12:06 PM
Buzz led us to three straight Sweet 16s and an Elite Eight. If hiring him was a mistake, I'll take two.
To say that Bennett "likely would've stayed" at Marquette is pure speculation. The UCLA, Texas, Florida, Michigan, Indiana, Louisville, and Ohio State jobs have all opened up since 2008. Bennett would've been a candidate for every one of those if he'd been at MU.
I understand folks are butt hurt because Wojo didn't get them a pony last night, but calling Buzz's hire "the biggest mistake in program history" is laughable.
Bennett stayed at Virginia, which was never his home before that move. Buzz got Sweet 16s. Whoop-di-freaking-doo. Bennett got league titles, 1-seeds, and won the big one. That matters. What Buzz did didn't to anyone outside Milwaukee.
So seriously, what are the drawbacks to TJO? Milwaukee guy. Young. Earned his stripes in the mid-majors. What's his buyout at UNLV?
Quote from: 1SE on March 04, 2020, 01:18:39 PM
So seriously, what are the drawbacks to TJO? Milwaukee guy. Young. Earned his stripes in the mid-majors. What's his buyout at UNLV?
If we move on, I think he'd be a good choice. No idea on his buyout, but local ties and has had success as a head coach. Could definitely do worse
Quote from: 1SE on March 04, 2020, 01:18:39 PM
So seriously, what are the drawbacks to TJO? Milwaukee guy. Young. Earned his stripes in the mid-majors. What's his buyout at UNLV?
He's never been at a job longer than 3 years, so you don't know if he can build long-term. Compared to a Wes Miller or John Becker type that have have built what they have now.
I like TJO & think he could be a great hire, but all hires have risk.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 01:17:30 PM
Bennett stayed at Virginia, which was never his home before that move. Buzz got Sweet 16s. Whoop-di-freaking-doo. Bennett got league titles, 1-seeds, and won the big one. That matters. What Buzz did didn't to anyone outside Milwaukee.
So now we're not even blaming Buzz's last season for Wojo's lackluster tenure at Marquette. We're blaming the fact that he was ever hired to begin with.
We didn't lose to DePaul last night because Buzz got hired 11 years ago. We lost because our coach who's been here for 6 years is arguably the worst coach in the conference.
Things to consider if Wojo stays :
- How many students show up to Midnight Madness?
- How many students show up in the student section?
- How many more departures from season tickets are there?
- What response do the donors of the program have? Less donations?
- How will the optics of more boo'ing next year affect recruiting?
Random other thoughts :
if I am Wojo, I tell the current team that the Freshman will start next year. Noone has been good enough to earn a starting bid.
Wojo needs to relate to the fanbase. Crean (sucks) used to do a great job of getting on the big screen before the games and pumping up the crowd/students. Buzz came out, walked through the student section, slapped high fives, etc. Wojo goes to the bench, has the same deer in headlights look, and moves on to gametime.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 04, 2020, 01:08:38 PM
The only P6 head coaches that would be interested in MU are those who are either desperate for a change for job reasons or those at the couple of places where Marquette would be a significant enough upgrade. For instance, Washington State.
Kyle Smith is a really good coach. Only been WSU for this year though.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 01:28:45 PM
So now we're not even blaming Buzz's last season for Wojo's lackluster tenure at Marquette. We're blaming the fact that he was ever hired to begin with.
We didn't lose to DePaul last night because Buzz got hired 11 years ago. We lost because our coach who's been here for 6 years is arguably the worst coach in the conference.
No, it's on the administration for rushing the hire after Crean left. Buzz was always going to be there. Had they done as thorough a search in 2008 as they did in 2014, this would be a completely different program. Buzz didn't hire himself.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 04:55:53 PM
No, it's on the administration for rushing the hire after Crean left. Buzz was always going to be there. Had they done as thorough a search in 2008 as they did in 2014, this would be a completely different program. Buzz didn't hire himself.
Didn't Bennett originally say no and then call back later and say yes? Or wasn't he waiting to see if the LSU job opened up because his wife is from there? If he said "no" or was waffling, I don't blame MU for looking at other options.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 05:00:33 PM
Didn't Bennett originally say no and then call back later and say yes? Or wasn't he waiting to see if the LSU job opened up because his wife is from there? If he said "no" or was waffling, I don't blame MU for looking at other options.
He turned down Marquette to pursue LSU, then called back to ask if the job was still available a half-hour after Buzz signed.
At the time, I was in shock Crean left after all the jobs he had flirted with and not left, but even more shocked they handed the reins to the first year assistant less than a week later. It was rushed, and even if you end up with Buzz, I felt that wasn't a thorough enough search, especially when you ended up with a future Hall of Famer calling to ask for your job.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 05:14:16 PM
He turned down Marquette to pursue LSU, then called back to ask if the job was still available a half-hour after Buzz signed.
At the time, I was in shock Crean left after all the jobs he had flirted with and not left, but even more shocked they handed the reins to the first year assistant less than a week later. It was rushed, and even if you end up with Buzz, I felt that wasn't a thorough enough search, especially when you ended up with a future Hall of Famer calling to ask for your job.
Should have Respected The Process...
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 05:14:16 PM
He turned down Marquette to pursue LSU, then called back to ask if the job was still available a half-hour after Buzz signed.
At the time, I was in shock Crean left after all the jobs he had flirted with and not left, but even more shocked they handed the reins to the first year assistant less than a week later. It was rushed, and even if you end up with Buzz, I felt that wasn't a thorough enough search, especially when you ended up with a future Hall of Famer calling to ask for your job.
You are a great poster and love your work with CS, but this is an extreme take and an odd moment to point back to all these years later. I mean this is like the Butterfly Effect. Buzz turned out ok for MU and it's hard to argue they didn't get a steal there.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 12:21:25 PM
Nope, because we recovered from Dukiet relatively quickly. If we don't hire Buzz, we hire Tony Bennett. And unlike Buzz, he likely would've stayed. Put TB in here for the past 11 years and we'd be in a vastly different place.
This is not correct
And so it begins...
https://twitter.com/ACCSports/status/1235315275605708802?s=20
Quote from: CountryRoads on March 04, 2020, 05:22:40 PM
You are a great poster and love your work with CS, but this is an extreme take and an odd moment to point back to all these years later. I mean this is like the Butterfly Effect. Buzz turned out ok for MU and it's hard to argue they didn't get a steal there.
If it's extreme to say I wish they would've done a thorough search that would've landed us a Hall of Famer, then I'm an extremist.
Taking the first warm body that said yes gave us a little fun, but opened more cans of worms than anyone in administration wanted.
If we're in the market, I want a thorough process. Maybe it ends up with another Wojo, but looking at the competition, both Martin & Howland were as bad or worse. If Marquette hired Stan Johnson less than a week after Wojo departed, I would not be happy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 05:27:44 PM
If it's extreme to say I wish they would've done a thorough search that would've landed us a Hall of Famer, then I'm an extremist.
Taking the first warm body that said yes gave us a little fun, but opened more cans of worms than anyone in administration wanted.
If we're in the market, I want a thorough process. Maybe it ends up with another Wojo, but looking at the competition, both Martin & Howland were as bad or worse. If Marquette hired Stan Johnson less than a week after Wojo departed, I would not be happy.
Imo, Howland started at Mississippi State in a deeper hole with far less tradition and resources, despite this, he has steadily advanced the program. Can we same the same has happened at MU?
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 05:37:24 PM
Imo, Howland started at Mississippi State in a deeper hole with far less tradition and resources, despite this, he has steadily advanced the program. Can we same the same has happened at MU?
Cheaters never prosper
It isn't who is available now. It is who is going to want be here in 5 to 6 years in when "It's Indiana, It's Indiana" or bolt to Blacksburg comes along.
In our history, we have had two coaches over 10year. One of them lead us to a national title. A total of 4 at nine or more. most are <6.
Going back to Al, the only first time coach with a tenure of >6 years was Crean. Our best hires were first time coaches who left for something else.
Going back to Al, our worst hires were Mike Deane and Dukiet. both had previous coaching experience. both were asked to leave.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 01:27:12 PM
He's never been at a job longer than 3 years, so you don't know if he can build long-term. Compared to a Wes Miller or John Becker type that have have built what they have now.
I like TJO & think he could be a great hire, but all hires have risk.
Becker took over a program that had won 4 conference titles in 5 years. He's been a good coach and kept it at that level, but Lonergan built that program. Becker's also been fortunate that the America East has been absolute garbage for the last 5+ years. Respect his ability as a coach but he'd be a No Thanks for me.
We're def aligned on Wes Miller as Ive said before. Think he could be the next Gregg Marshall. Think he'd have had Marshall's Winthrop-like success in conference if not for Steve Forbes and Mike Young being really good as well.
Besides Ma and Pa, hoo are da big donors, hey?
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 01:17:30 PM
Bennett stayed at Virginia, which was never his home before that move. Buzz got Sweet 16s. Whoop-di-freaking-doo. Bennett got league titles, 1-seeds, and won the big one. That matters. What Buzz did didn't to anyone outside Milwaukee.
Respectfully I have an entirely different opinion.
I understand that you are making it a Buzz MU results vs TB UVA results thing. And you are doing so because of timing. But these are apples to oranges places. It is unknown at best how well TB would have done at MU. It is however known that in 4 of 6 seasons in Big East, Buzz won 14,14,12,11 games and never had a losing league record. In those six seasons he had an elite 8, sweet 16, sweet 16, and five NCAA appearances and a Big East Title. These are some of the best results in modern MU history. TB has had strong seasons at UVA. But we are comparing Buzz here to other MU coaches and their results.
Idealistically MU can some day find a coach that will win at high levels and also stay a long time. My first priority is winning. As Adrian told Rocky when she woke up from the coma, "Win."
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 04, 2020, 09:11:48 AM
I don't know who said it, but a poster did make an argument for firing Wojo this season that made sense to me. If Shaka were to somehow keep his job at Texas, MU could very well be the top job available on the market this season. That does give me some pause as it could that theoretically mean that we would have our pick of coaches. And despite my skepticism at Keefe' Beilein carpet bombing last night, maybe if he is desperate to get back into college coaching (he certainly can afford to wait a year if he wants), we could land him. So what jobs could legitimately come open that MU would have to compete with? This is what I came up with:
Texas
Miami (FL)
Kansas State
Wake Forest
Utah
Georgia Tech (unlikely)
Oregon State (unlikely)
Boston College (unlikely)
Northwestern (unlikely)
Did I miss anyone? There's usually one surprise departure that no one is expecting (though I think the national media would say MU is that surprise departure if it were to happen). I don't think any of the big name coaches are looking at retiring. Maybe the NBA picks off one of the top coaches but that usually doesn't happen until mid-summer. If Shaka hangs on and if this is the competition, then we may be at the top of the coaching search food chain.
Yup, I'm just jumping in this thread, but that was me that made that argument last night. I said Shaka saving his season could be the best thing that happened to MU.
I'm by no stretch comparing MU to these blue bloods, but soon be it age, scandal, NBA, or other, it's not entirely impossible next year (April 2021) to envision Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, UNC becoming open (not all). If the MU job opened this spring, it would be the best opening by far.
I haven't read through this thread yet, so some of this I'm sure is argued here.
Timing is so vital in these coaching searches.
Quote from: 1SE on March 04, 2020, 01:18:39 PM
So seriously, what are the drawbacks to TJO? Milwaukee guy. Young. Earned his stripes in the mid-majors. What's his buyout at UNLV?
I'd love to hear people's analysis on why they believe TJO would be an upgrade on Wojo.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 04, 2020, 07:22:00 PM
I'd love to hear people's analysis on why they believe TJO would be an upgrade on Wojo.
Agreed. He had success when he was left with the best player in the history of his conference. He helped recruit to Iowa State. Of course Wojo never had success recruiting to a high major program before coming to MU...
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 01:28:45 PM
So now we're not even blaming Buzz's last season for Wojo's lackluster tenure at Marquette. We're blaming the fact that he was ever hired to begin with.
We didn't lose to DePaul last night because Buzz got hired 11 years ago. We lost because our coach who's been here for 6 years is arguably the worst coach in the conference.
Yep. Stupid.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 04, 2020, 07:22:00 PM
I'd love to hear people's analysis on why they believe TJO would be an upgrade on Wojo.
4 years of head coaching experience.
‪#MUBB‬
‪Watching these other Big East games and I can see how far we have fallen. We definitely don't play with this hustle or intensity. We did at times this year, what happened ?? 😢‬
Players are the same so it has to be coaching right?
Another sad year for Marquette fans 😢
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 01:28:45 PM
So now we're not even blaming Buzz's last season for Wojo's lackluster tenure at Marquette. We're blaming the fact that he was ever hired to begin with.
We didn't lose to DePaul last night because Buzz got hired 11 years ago. We lost because our coach who's been here for 6 years is arguably the worst coach in the conference.
+1000. To say that hiring the 2nd most successful coach in MU history was our biggest mistake is CRAZY. So is assuming TB ends up at MU if we don't hire Buzz.
BTW, the absolutely awful Texas A+M team Buzz inherited just ended Auburn's long home court winning streak (17 or 19 games).
Mark Miller tweeted a link to this article today. Maybe it doesn't always take 5 years. Some Buzz like qualities.
https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2020/mar/04/tj-otzelberger-turning-around-unlv-in-a-hurry/
Quote from: asdfasdf on March 04, 2020, 11:27:01 AM
Interesting read on the situation. Maybe Scholl would look at an assistant from ND? Rod Balanis fits the bill.
You're not from around here, aren't you?
Quote from: Room510 on March 04, 2020, 08:36:01 PM
Mark Miller tweeted a link to this article today. Maybe it doesn't always take 5 years. Some Buzz like qualities.
https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2020/mar/04/tj-otzelberger-turning-around-unlv-in-a-hurry/
Sign him up the second UNLV is eliminated from the tournament.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 05:14:16 PM
He turned down Marquette to pursue LSU, then called back to ask if the job was still available a half-hour after Buzz signed.
At the time, I was in shock Crean left after all the jobs he had flirted with and not left, but even more shocked they handed the reins to the first year assistant less than a week later. It was rushed, and even if you end up with Buzz, I felt that wasn't a thorough enough search, especially when you ended up with a future Hall of Famer calling to ask for your job.
Okay, so MU offered him the job and he said no. What else were they supposed to do but pursue other candidates and make an offer if they liked what they saw? They had no idea TB would change his mind. He'd literally told them he didn't want the job.
And you know what? Maybe that process wasn't as rushed as you think it was. Maybe Buzz just blew them away in the interview. After all, he's a top 15 coach in the country. He was a home run hire for Marquette.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 09:56:01 PM
Okay, so MU offered him the job and he said no. What else were they supposed to do but pursue other candidates and make an offer if they liked what they saw? They had no idea TB would change his mind. He'd literally told them he didn't want the job.
And you know what? Maybe that process wasn't as rushed as you think it was. Maybe Buzz just blew them away in the interview. After all, he's a top 15 coach in the country. He was a home run hire for Marquette.
Exactly. And 14 other teams could have had Giannis for free. That doesn't mean the guy they drafted ruined their entire franchise. Especially teams that got a solid player like Oladipo or Steven Adams.
Some people will do anything to convince themselves Buzz was bad for our program. He left like a jerk. Yeah it sucks. Let's move on and figure out how we're going to be successful moving forward.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 04, 2020, 09:56:01 PM
Okay, so MU offered him the job and he said no. What else were they supposed to do but pursue other candidates and make an offer if they liked what they saw? They had no idea TB would change his mind. He'd literally told them he didn't want the job.
And you know what? Maybe that process wasn't as rushed as you think it was. Maybe Buzz just blew them away in the interview. After all, he's a top 15 coach in the country. He was a home run hire for Marquette.
Buzz was an outstanding hire by Marquette. The most successful coach at MU not named Al.
His teams were talented but, more importantly, they were tough. They played an exciting brand of ball that was fun to watch.
F#ck The Poet and Larry Williams.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 04, 2020, 05:14:16 PM
He turned down Marquette to pursue LSU, then called back to ask if the job was still available a half-hour after Buzz signed.
This is your unsourced story/rumor. Even if true, he wasn't exactly "all in" on coming home. Turned down a solid offer from MU to take a flyer on a job at a football school with very little basketball history - but when they have no interest he'll take Marquette cause it means escaping Pullman, Wa. Sounds like he would have been out of Milwaukee too at the first opportunity.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2020, 10:49:33 PM
This is your unsourced story/rumor. Even if true, he wasn't exactly "all in" on coming home. Turned down a solid offer from MU to take a flyer on a job at a football school with very little basketball history - but when they have no interest he'll take Marquette cause it means escaping Pullman, Wa. Sounds like he would have been out of Milwaukee too at the first opportunity.
No, no. TB would have won a national championship in Milwaukee. Ipso facto - Buzz cost us a national champioship. unnatural carnal knowledge Buzz.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2020, 10:49:33 PM
This is your unsourced story/rumor.
Well put, Lenny. Sums it up precisely.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 04, 2020, 07:22:00 PM
I'd love to hear people's analysis on why they believe TJO would be an upgrade on Wojo.
He's won championships as a HC? With a team that had just been D2?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2020, 10:49:33 PM
This is your unsourced story/rumor. Even if true, he wasn't exactly "all in" on coming home. Turned down a solid offer from MU to take a flyer on a job at a football school with very little basketball history - but when they have no interest he'll take Marquette cause it means escaping Pullman, Wa. Sounds like he would have been out of Milwaukee too at the first opportunity.
LSU has a very underrated basketball history. More Final Fours than us and a player that's at least on Wades level on the MT Rushmore of greats
The more I read the more I like this guy
"Other coaches may have preached patience after taking over a roster in flux, but Otzelberger never asked for a grace period when he accepted the UNLV job last April. He simply recruited the best team available for 2019-20 and then set about coaching them into a respectable unit."
Have to assume that MU would be a dream job for him (maybe along with ISU where wife is BB alum). Let's grab him before he gets pulled into P6 job and becomes much more costly.
Seriously, after starting the season 4-8 he has won 6 of the last 7, including the road win over SDSU. Mirror opposite to Wojo's collapse.
After leading SDSU to two tournament championships (and NCAA appearances) and two league championships in 3 years.
This thread started out as rational for why it could make sense for MU to fire Wojo now assuming the slide plays out. While I see the logic and it would be great to have a shot at Beilein I don't see anyway this happens. Remember that just a few weeks ago MU was ranked 18 and looked poised for a top 4 BE finish and a high Tourne seed. Wojo appears to have locked up the recruiting class that was one of the key things he would have been judged on this year. Assuming MU limps into the NCAAs and then loses in the first round I just don't think that will be enough to convince the people who must be convinced to pull the trigger and be ready to recruit a new coach around the final 4 when this stuff normally gets done.
I think its far more likely and likely and probably better for MU if he stays 1 more year. Assuming this season ends poorly that combined with Markus leaving will cause a number of STH not to renew. I've already been told by a couple people they won't renew next year. I significant drop in STH is going to get the admin and board's attention. That should cause them to start putting feelers out to coaches agents to see who might be willing to consider MU.
At the same time the recruiting class will enroll. MU will be talented but young and will be picked toward the bottom of the BE. Assuming Wojo doesn't exceed expectations (which he has yet to do) thats where they will finish missing the NCAAs. I think that is the point that the MU admin is forced to pull the trigger.
I know no one wants to wait another year but I'd be shocked if they moved more quickly. And honestly getting this new class in gives the new guy something to work with assuming he can keep them. Next season will be wash out if there is a coaching change anyway and if I had to screw up a recruiting class I'd rather it be the one needed to replace Theo, Cain and Koby.
Quote from: 1SE on March 05, 2020, 07:08:50 AM
The more I read the more I like this guy
"Other coaches may have preached patience after taking over a roster in flux, but Otzelberger never asked for a grace period when he accepted the UNLV job last April. He simply recruited the best team available for 2019-20 and then set about coaching them into a respectable unit."
Have to assume that MU would be a dream job for him (maybe along with ISU where wife is BB alum). Let's grab him before he gets pulled into P6 job and becomes much more costly.
Seriously, after starting the season 4-8 he has won 6 of the last 7, including the road win over SDSU. Mirror opposite to Wojo's collapse.
After leading SDSU to two tournament championships (and NCAA appearances) and two league championships in 3 years.
The first paragraph is the most telling, as some believe Wojo, being a first time head coach, is still in his grace period. Hell, he seems to think so, too. He's talked about how much work there was to do when he got there, in his fourth season he said we were the youngest team in the oldest league. TJO seems to have that Buzz mentality where each year is its own thing and you try to win as much as possible, because there's no telling what next year will bring.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 05, 2020, 07:10:46 AM
This thread started out as rational for why it could make sense for MU to fire Wojo now assuming the slide plays out. While I see the logic and it would be great to have a shot at Beilein I don't see anyway this happens. Remember that just a few weeks ago MU was ranked 18 and looked poised for a top 4 BE finish and a high Tourne seed. Wojo appears to have locked up the recruiting class that was one of the key things he would have been judged on this year. Assuming MU limps into the NCAAs and then loses in the first round I just don't think that will be enough to convince the people who must be convinced to pull the trigger and be ready to recruit a new coach around the final 4 when this stuff normally gets done.
I think its far more likely and likely and probably better for MU if he stays 1 more year. Assuming this season ends poorly that combined with Markus leaving will cause a number of STH not to renew. I've already been told by a couple people they won't renew next year. I significant drop in STH is going to get the admin and board's attention. That should cause them to start putting feelers out to coaches agents to see who might be willing to consider MU.
At the same time the recruiting class will enroll. MU will be talented but young and will be picked toward the bottom of the BE. Assuming Wojo doesn't exceed expectations (which he has yet to do) thats where they will finish missing the NCAAs. I think that is the point that the MU admin is forced to pull the trigger.
I know no one wants to wait another year but I'd be shocked if they moved more quickly. And honestly getting this new class in gives the new guy something to work with assuming he can keep them. Next season will be wash out if there is a coaching change anyway and if I had to screw up a recruiting class I'd rather it be the one needed to replace Theo, Cain and Koby.
Wojo is the embodiment of the sunk cost fallacy.
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 05, 2020, 07:15:35 AM
The first paragraph is the most telling, as some believe Wojo, being a first time head coach, is still in his grace period. Hell, he seems to think so, too. He's talked about how much work there was to do when he got there, in his fourth season he said we were the youngest team in the oldest league. TJO seems to have that Buzz mentality where each year is its own thing and you try to win as much as possible, because there's no telling what next year will bring.
Exactly. Seems like he has Buzz-like tenacity (and maybe OCD) but he's a Milwaukee native and (maybe) can run a clean program? It's like matching the best of Wojo (boy scout who the admin loves) with the best of Buzz (tunnel focused on winning with whatever hand he has).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2020, 10:49:33 PM
This is your unsourced story/rumor. Even if true, he wasn't exactly "all in" on coming home. Turned down a solid offer from MU to take a flyer on a job at a football school with very little basketball history - but when they have no interest he'll take Marquette cause it means escaping Pullman, Wa. Sounds like he would have been out of Milwaukee too at the first opportunity.
Just like Shaka! How dare he let his wife's influence come into his thought process! Who needs him?
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 05, 2020, 06:49:51 AM
LSU has a very underrated basketball history. More Final Fours than us and a player that's at least on Wades level on the MT Rushmore of greats
They have made 4 FFs (one in 1953). Played 6 games (2 for 3rd place, when that was a "thing"), lost all 6. Never made an NIT final, in their only semifinal they lost to us by 22. So underrated, but nothing compared to their football program.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2020, 08:22:17 AM
They have made 4 FFs (one in 1953). Played 6 games (2 for 3rd place, when that was a "thing"), lost all 6. Never made an NIT final, in their only semifinal they lost to us by 22. So underrated, but nothing compared to their football program.
Didn't say it was anything compared to the football program. Only meant to say they had much more history than you were crediting them with.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on March 05, 2020, 08:29:19 AM
Didn't say it was anything compared to the football program. Only meant to say they had much more history than you were crediting them with.
Poor choice of words on my part. "Very little" is inaccurate. Their b-ball program has had periods of success and failure.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 04, 2020, 08:50:55 PM
Sign him up the second UNLV is eliminated from the tournament.
They won't. I have a feeling even if Wojo leaves, and TJO wants to come here, Marquette won't touch him.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2020, 09:38:57 AM
They won't. I have a feeling even if Wojo leaves, and TJO wants to come here, Marquette won't touch him.
Why?
Quote from: 1SE on March 05, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
Why?
I just have a feeling with his Juco background and how he helped ISU rely on transfers, that MU isn't going to be interested.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 04, 2020, 07:22:00 PM
I'd love to hear people's analysis on why they believe TJO would be an upgrade on Wojo.
If a change is made after this season I am fully on board with Otz. He's made adjustments and his teams have gotten better as the season progresses. He's played at different paces, slow his first year and this year at UNLV, fast his last two years at South Dakota St. This shows he's not stuck in his ways and changes things based on his personnel and to maximize his team's potential. He has four years of head coaching experience and has won two conference regular season championships, two conference tournament championships, and was the summit league coach of the year in 2018. It's a bonus that he lived in Wisconsin for the first 27 years of his life so he knows and has existing relationships in the area.
There's risk in any hire, but besides getting a coach who has won big in the NCAA tournament (which rarely happens for non-blue bloods), this guy checks a lot of boxes for me. If he's interested, I think he should be near the top of the wish list.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2020, 09:46:47 AM
I just have a feeling with his Juco background and how he helped ISU rely on transfers, that MU isn't going to be interested.
Wojo has dined on transfers every year. If MU relies on coaches who don't recruit JUCOs, let's also take Tony Bennett, Porter Moser, and every BE coach except Jay Wright off the list. So, we are left with Chris Carrawell and Jon Scheyer.
Quote from: keefe on March 04, 2020, 10:44:12 PM
They played an exciting brand of ball that was fun to watch.
Perhaps a quibble but this is a bit revisinist. Buzz's results were great to watch but the teams in-game style was ghastly. With the exception of DJO, watching them trying to hit a jump shot was a miserable experience. I hate the teams style under Buzz but at the end of the day if it gets result, I'm in.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2020, 10:00:14 AM
Wojo has dined on transfers every year. If MU relies on coaches who don't recruit JUCOs, let's also take Tony Bennett, Porter Moser, and every BE coach except Jay Wright off the list. So, we are left with Chris Carrawell and Jon Scheyer.
I 100% agree with you. As I said, I just have a feeling MU wouldn't be interested.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 05, 2020, 10:00:14 AM
Wojo has dined on transfers every year. If MU relies on coaches who don't recruit JUCOs, let's also take Tony Bennett, Porter Moser, and every BE coach except Jay Wright off the list. So, we are left with Chris Carrawell and Jon Scheyer.
JUCOs aren't "banned" at MU, but some of the highly questionable JUCOs (academics and character) that Buzz brought in or went after would be not welcomed at MU these days.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 05, 2020, 10:00:27 AM
Perhaps a quibble but this is a bit revisinist. Buzz's results were great to watch but the teams in-game style was ghastly. With the exception of DJO, watching them trying to hit a jump shot was a miserable experience. I hate the teams style under Buzz but at the end of the day if it gets result, I'm in.
"bit revisionist" is mild. It's a downright lie.
Ghastly was the correct word to use describing style. Any MU fan saying Buzz' teams were exciting and fun to watch on the whole is one not worth their words.
Quote from: 1SE on March 05, 2020, 01:44:03 AM
He's won championships as a HC? With a team that had just been D2?
Assuming you're talking about SDSU, they definitely were not recently D2 when he took over.
Quote from: BM1090 on March 05, 2020, 10:14:53 AM
Assuming you're talking about SDSU, they definitely were not recently D2 when he took over.
Jeez I'm old - I knew they were D1 when he was there but since I remembered the move I figured it must have only been a few years earlier - but no, 2004!
Quote from: 1SE on March 05, 2020, 10:20:03 AM
Jeez I'm old - I knew they were D1 when he was there but since I remembered the move I figured it must have only been a few years earlier - but no, 2004!
Regardless, he did an excellent job there.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 05, 2020, 10:11:44 AM
"bit revisionist" is mild. It's a downright lie.
Ghastly was the correct word to use describing style. Any MU fan saying Buzz' teams were exciting and fun to watch on the whole is one not worth their words.
I'm pretty sure I thought winning 8 out of the 13 NCAA tournament games that were played during Buzz's 6 year tenure was somewhat exciting.
I don't really care if it's pretty, I'd just prefer they win when it really matters more often than we've seen - especially over the last two years.
Since 2013, here are the coaching changes that the Big East has had:
Butler - Brandon Miller left on medical leave in 2013, hired Chris Holtmann full-time in 2014 (left for OSU in 2017), hired LaVall Jordan (UW-Milwaukee) in 2017.
DePaul - Oliver Purnell resigned in 2015, hired Dave Leitao (Missouri assistant) in 2015.
Georgetown - Fired JTIII in 2017, hired Patrick Ewing (Charlotte Hornets) in 2017.
St. John's - Steve Lavin and school mutually parted ways in 2015, hiring Chris Mullin (Sacramento Kings advisor) in 2015; Mullin resigns in 2019, leading to the hire of Mike Anderson (Arkansas).
Xavier - Chris Mack leaves for Louisville in 2018, leading to hire of Travis Steele.
Miller, Holtmann and Steele were all hired as (then) assistants for the program. Jordan, Leitao, Ewing and Mullin all had prior associations with the school, whether as an alum, assistant coach or head coach. Wojo and Mike Anderson are the lone head coaches of the Big East (in this incarnation, 2013-present) that have had zero associations with the school.
McDermott (Iowa State, Northern Iowa, ND State and Wayne State), Willard (Iona), Wright (Hofstra) and Cooley (Fairfield), arguably the top-4 programs in the BE this year, all had head coaching experience prior to arriving at their current stops, and all four had ties to their areas before being named head coach at their school. Buzz, too, had prior HC experience (abeit one season at New Orleans), but little-to-no Midwestern ties.
IF our job were to open this Spring (and I have strong, strong doubts that it will), I feel we would need to prioritize head coaching experience with any new hire. I know it often gets ridiculed around here, but - considering these factors - it does lend credence to the strong possibility that Wardle would be a strong candidate. His status as an alum/former player, being a head coach at two different Midwestern schools (UWGB/Bradley), each program improving and making strides yearly, and level of success (won 20 games in five years as a head coach, and all five were at end of tenures, not beginning), it reveals a proven, upward trajectory not unlike many of the successful coaches our conference currently has. Many will point to the lack of tournament success as a "barrier", but which head coach that Marquette has hired in history had proven, identifiable tournament success in March when they were hired as a head coach?
Quote from: mu03eng on March 05, 2020, 10:04:44 AM
JUCOs aren't "banned" at MU, but some of the highly questionable JUCOs (academics and character) that Buzz brought in or went after would be not welcomed at MU these days.
exactly. JUCO's who can actually graduate in two (or three, in the case of Butler) are all good. It was the Crowders of the world who would never graduate and needed summer school every year just to get eligible that MU was fed up with.
At first, Crean could not recruit JUCO's, then when he recruited Marcus Jackson he had to graduate until he could bring in another one (Kinsella not counting as he was a 4-2-4 who started at Rice).
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 05, 2020, 10:57:34 AM
exactly. JUCO's who can actually graduate in two (or three, in the case of Butler) are all good. It was the Crowders of the world who would never graduate and needed summer school every year just to get eligible that MU was fed up with.
At first, Crean would not recruit JUCO's, then when he recruited Marcus Jackson he had to graduate until he could bring in another one (Kinsella not counting as he was a 4-2-4 who started at Rice).
100% correct. Some of the JUCO kids that Buzz was trying to force in academically was just bonkers. The Crowder experience worked out on the court but we are very, very, very lucky that no one took a closer look at that from a certain governing institution.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 05, 2020, 11:06:15 AM
100% correct. Some of the JUCO kids that Buzz was trying to force in academically was just bonkers. The Crowder experience worked out on the court but we are very, very, very lucky that no one took a closer look at that from a certain governing institution.
??? The NCAA did look at it. And declared him, by their own rules, to be eligible. This revisionist history is silly.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2020, 11:21:36 AM
??? The NCAA did look at it. And declared him, by their own rules, to be eligible. This revisionist history is silly.
it's the school that declares him eligible, not the NCAA. That's only for freshmen and if you go JUCO you don't have to be cleared academically by the Eligibility Center.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 05, 2020, 11:23:17 AM
it's the school that declares him eligible, not the NCAA. That's only for freshmen and if you go JUCO you don't have to be cleared academically by the Eligibility Center.
He had to graduate from an accredited institution with his associates degree. He did that. What else is there to look into?
MU just needs to find itself a Jay Wright. Easy peasy. (Teal)
18 completed seasons at Villanova.
14 NCAA's
6 out of 18 2nd weekend
3 of 18 first round exits
6 Big East Regular Season Titles
2 National Titles
Took him his 4th season to make NCAA's and has missed it once since.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2020, 11:25:30 AM
He had to graduate from an accredited institution with his associates degree. He did that. What else is there to look into?
There were having accreditation issues at the time and the transcripts were a mess. Additionally, a lot of his credits were not transferable(mostly the ones from Georgia South Tech) to MU at the time though a lot of that was waived.......
An example of some of the mess that Howard Junior College has gotten itself into over the last two decades
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/31/financial-sanctions-howard-university (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/31/financial-sanctions-howard-university)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2020, 11:21:36 AM
??? The NCAA did look at it. And declared him, by their own rules, to be eligible. This revisionist history is silly.
Not revisionist, it is fact from a fully knowledgeable direct source contemporaneous to the events at the time. Buzz was pulling slimy stuff with JUCOs, including with Jae Crowder. Was it intended to be shady or was Buzz's whole "second chances" schtick real? Tough to say, but we were 100% doing a lot of academically questionable things with JUCO targets during the Buzz era.
If you're Otzelberger, how much money would Marquette have to offer you to come here? He already makes 1.1 million. I think Wojo makes ~ 1.4 million. If Marquette gives Otzelberger the same salary as Wojo, would that extra $300,000 be enough to come here?
If you're Marquette, would you readily give Otzelberger the same salary as Wojo?
I'm just not sure the numbers will add up for MU to get Otzelberger, unless he's willing to keep the same salary he currently has at UNLV to move here.
Quote from: asdfasdf on March 05, 2020, 11:41:22 AM
If you're Otzelberger, how much money would Marquette have to offer you to come here? He already makes 1.1 million. I think Wojo makes ~ 1.4 million. If Marquette gives Otzelberger the same salary as Wojo, would that extra $300,000 be enough to come here?
If you're Marquette, would you readily give Otzelberger the same salary as Wojo?
I'm just not sure the numbers will add up for MU to get Otzelberger, unless he's willing to keep the same salary he currently has at UNLV to move here.
https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2019/05/07/marquette-signs-mens-basketball-coach.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2019/05/07/marquette-signs-mens-basketball-coach.html)
If you trust this article, he made $1.86 million in 2015. I would imagine it's higher now.
Quote from: Happy Meehl on March 05, 2020, 11:54:50 AM
https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2019/05/07/marquette-signs-mens-basketball-coach.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2019/05/07/marquette-signs-mens-basketball-coach.html)
If you trust this article, he made $1.86 million in 2015. I would imagine it's higher now.
Yikes, my mistake. Not sure why I thought it was 1.4 million. According to the form 990 submitted in 2019 Wojo made ~2.2 million the previous year.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/390806251/08_2019_prefixes_38-42%2F390806251_201806_990_2019083016611745
Quote from: f/k/a humanlung on March 04, 2020, 10:05:23 AM
Give it to Stan.
He knows the program, the culture, the players and the recruits. I have a limited data set but he sounds like he can coach - actually teaching as opposed to the endless cliches we have been hearing. Not an expert at all, but from what I have seen and heard, he looks like a real coach.
How many players actually came here because Wojo recruited them or did Stan actually recruit them?
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on March 05, 2020, 09:38:57 AM
They won't. I have a feeling even if Wojo leaves, and TJO wants to come here, Marquette won't touch him.
With all the MU to ISU transfers, especially WI guys, I wonder if there was any tampering that would leave a sour taste. Real or perceived tampering.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 05, 2020, 12:42:33 PM
With all the MU to ISU transfers, especially WI guys, I wonder if there was any tampering that would leave a sour taste. Real or perceived tampering.
I'm sure there was. Also I'm pretty sure there is 'tampering' in most every transfer situations through back channels.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 05, 2020, 12:16:14 PM
How many players actually came here because Wojo recruited them or did Stan actually recruit them?
Wojo's assistants are the lead recruiters. Wojo is the closer and recruits all of the players.
I mean if I had to "settle" for a guy...I might give Nate Oates a call before TJ. But I'd be really curious to see who MU could land if they paid 4-5 mill per year or more(which they could easily do).
Quote from: mu03eng on March 05, 2020, 11:36:24 AM
There were having accreditation issues at the time and the transcripts were a mess. Additionally, a lot of his credits were not transferable(mostly the ones from Georgia South Tech) to MU at the time though a lot of that was waived.......
An example of some of the mess that Howard Junior College has gotten itself into over the last two decades
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/31/financial-sanctions-howard-university (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/08/31/financial-sanctions-howard-university)
Jae Crowder went to Howard University??
Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2020, 02:39:09 PM
I mean if I had to "settle" for a guy...I might give Nate Oates a call before TJ. But I'd be really curious to see who MU could land if they paid 4-5 mill per year or more(which they could easily do).
Why do you think that is something that MU can easily do?
Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2020, 02:39:09 PM
I mean if I had to "settle" for a guy...I might give Nate Oates a call before TJ. But I'd be really curious to see who MU could land if they paid 4-5 mill per year or more(which they could easily do).
Why do you think the Marquette could "easily" pay a coach $4 to $5 million? Based on what?
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 05, 2020, 02:51:18 PM
Why do you think that is something that MU can easily do?
And, on that point, is MU really going to pay, roughly, $8 million for Wojo's buyout (at $2 million annually, with a contract that runs through '24). Very, very unlikely (especially since we are still projected safely into the tournament).
So, we are looking at, minimum (not including assistant salaries), around $12-$13 million for an entire coaching change, no (assuming we would now be paying $4-$5 million?)?
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 05, 2020, 02:57:32 PM
And, on that point, is MU really going to pay, roughly, $8 million for Wojo's buyout (at $2 million annually, with a contract that runs through '24). Very, very unlikely (especially since we are still projected safely into the tournament).
So, we are looking at, minimum (not including assistant salaries), around $12-$13 million for an entire coaching change, no (assuming we would now be paying $4-$5 million?)?
And that's only if we don't have to buyout the 4 or 5 million dollar coach.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 05, 2020, 02:57:32 PM
And, on that point, is MU really going to pay, roughly, $8 million for Wojo's buyout (at $2 million annually, with a contract that runs through '24). Very, very unlikely (especially since we are still projected safely into the tournament).
So, we are looking at, minimum (not including assistant salaries), around $12-$13 million for an entire coaching change, no (assuming we would now be paying $4-$5 million?)?
Exactly why we shouldn't have given him a contract extension for no reason.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on March 05, 2020, 02:57:32 PM
And, on that point, is MU really going to pay, roughly, $8 million for Wojo's buyout (at $2 million annually, with a contract that runs through '24). Very, very unlikely (especially since we are still projected safely into the tournament).
So, we are looking at, minimum (not including assistant salaries), around $12-$13 million for an entire coaching change, no (assuming we would now be paying $4-$5 million?)?
Jesus, is that really what his buyout would be if we wanted to let him go?
Quote from: Silent Verbal on March 05, 2020, 03:02:16 PM
Jesus, is that really what his buyout would be if we wanted to let him go?
Not necessarily. As was mentioned when it was signed, it depends on the language in the contract. Wojo may have sacrificed more years and the stability on the recruiting trail that comes with that, for a lower buyout.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 05, 2020, 03:01:41 PM
Exactly why we shouldn't have given him a contract extension for no reason.
It wasn't for no reason. Universities typically keep coaches extend out at least 5 years so the coach can assure recruits that he will be there until they graduate.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 05, 2020, 03:01:41 PM
Exactly why we shouldn't have given him a contract extension for no reason.
Unless someone reported differently, we have no idea what the buyout is--or for that matter that the contract extension increased or decreased the existing buyout in the old contract.
We honestly should have just let his contract run out. Then changed the combination on the doors at the Al.
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 05, 2020, 03:21:41 PM
We honestly should have just let his contract run out. Then changed the combination on the doors at the Al.
Some people just don't understand what they're being told.
Quote from: Retire0 on March 05, 2020, 03:37:00 PM
Some people just don't understand what they're being told.
No, I just don't care. I don't care about Wojo's mythical unicorn big fish 5-start that just hasn't made it to campus yet. I've seen this musical many times before and the ending is always the same.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 05, 2020, 02:51:18 PM
Why do you think that is something that MU can easily do?
Buzz was making what?? 3 million or there a bouts?? I have talked to a few people that would know that have said coming up with $4-5 million for a Coach would be "not a problem".
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 05, 2020, 03:41:16 PM
No, I just don't care. I don't care about Wojo's mythical unicorn big fish 5-start that just hasn't made it to campus yet. I've seen this musical many times before and the ending is always the same.
Then it's just ignorance. Worse.
Quote from: Retire0 on March 05, 2020, 05:14:57 PM
Then it's just ignorance. Worse.
Facts = ignorance now? Interesting take but go for it.
Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2020, 04:22:25 PM
Buzz was making what?? 3 million or there a bouts?? I have talked to a few people that would know that have said coming up with $4-5 million for a Coach would be "not a problem".
I don't remember what buzz was making but let's say it was 3 million. That was after 5 years of success. He started a lot lower than that.
You want to pay a coach that hasn't done anything for MU 1 to 2 million more a year then the most successful MU coach in the past 40 years made at his peak?
And this is based on your friends telling you it would be no problem? When MU is currently slashing academic budgets and higher education as a whole is preparing for massive drops in enrollment due to changing demographics?
This excites me because the only way your friends would be right is if they are planning to personally pay for the new coach's salary out of their own pocket every year. Tell your friends thank you fur their generosity.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 05, 2020, 05:41:51 PM
I don't remember what buzz was making but let's say it was 3 million. That was after 5 years of success. He started a lot lower than that.
You want to pay a coach that hasn't done anything for MU 1 to 2 million more a year then the most successful MU coach in the past 40 years made at his peak?
And this is based on your friends telling you it would be no problem? When MU is currently slashing academic budgets and higher education as a whole is preparing for massive drops in enrollment due to changing demographics?
This excites me because the only way your friends would be right is if they are planning to personally pay for the new coach's salary out of their own pocket every year. Tell your friends thank you fur their generosity.
You can explain it to him but you can't understand it for him.....that's the gap
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 05, 2020, 05:41:51 PM
Tell your friends thank you fur (breakfast) their generosity.
(https://lewisartcafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/M%C3%A9ret_Oppenheim_Object.jpg)
Quote from: mu03eng on March 05, 2020, 06:00:45 PM
You can explain it to him but you can't understand it for him.....that's the gap
Hmmm, okay so you're calling me a liar..I'm telling you they CAN pay $4-5 million a year for a Coach. Of course this wouldn't be for a guy like Wojo, this would be for a guy that has proven experience at the high major level.
Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2020, 07:19:05 PM
Hmmm, okay so you're calling me a liar..I'm telling you they CAN pay $4-5 million a year for a Coach. Of course this wouldn't be for a guy like Wojo, this would be for a guy that has proven experience at the high major level.
How would you define proven experience?
Quote from: 5DollarPitcher on March 05, 2020, 05:24:14 PM
Facts = ignorance now? Interesting take but go for it.
What facts do you have that detail letting Wojo's contract run out would have been a net positive for Marquette?
I have no faith that MU could hire a coach with division one success.
Quote from: bilsu on March 05, 2020, 10:38:18 PM
I have no faith that MU could hire a coach with division one success.
MU absolutely could. It's a matter of whether they're willing to do it.
I've got to think that there are tons of mid-major coaches that would love to have a shot to move into the Big East. A guy like John Becker at Vermont who has been super successful for a long stretch makes sense to me. Or maybe we give Matt McMahon from Murray State a look, assuming we can get over the hard feelings from last March. Casey Alexander from Belmont is interesting too. He did well at Lipscomb the last few years and is now having a strong first year as the HC at Belmont, where he was a long-time assistant.
Heck, what about Mark Pope at BYU, Anthony Grant from Dayton, or Ben Jacobs at UNI. They're all having great seasons this year, but they're not in top tier destinations.
These are the kinds of coaches I'd be excited to get. And I don't see why it would be hard for us to lure these guys away from their current positions. The money, the conference, the facilities, the recruiting power... it would all be a big step up. Seems like a win-win to me.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 05, 2020, 11:34:20 PM
MU absolutely could. It's a matter of whether they're willing to do it.
I've got to think that there are tons of mid-major coaches that would love to have a shot to move into the Big East. A guy like John Becker at Vermont who has been super successful for a long stretch makes sense to me. Or maybe we give Matt McMahon from Murray State a look, assuming we can get over the hard feelings from last March. Casey Alexander from Belmont is interesting too. He did well at Lipscomb the last few years and is now having a strong first year as the HC at Belmont, where he was a long-time assistant.
Heck, what about Mark Pope at BYU, Anthony Grant from Dayton, or Ben Jacobs at UNI. They're all having great seasons this year, but they're not in top tier destinations.
These are the kinds of coaches I'd be excited to get. And I don't see why it would be hard for us to lure these guys away from their current positions. The money, the conference, the facilities, the recruiting power... it would all be a big step up. Seems like a win-win to me.
Like where your head is at, absent the last 3. Pope needs some time, Ben Jacobson has had MANY opportunities to leave UNI and I think he may be a lifer. He's got a comfortable salary, tons of security, and has been on the bench there 20 years, and all the true success of the program has been under him. I think Anthony Grant is also a guy who is better at the mid major level. And gotta see what he does post-Toppin cause his time at Bama was uninspiring.
Ive spoken my mind about Becker, I wouldn't prefer a low-major guy in his mid 50s who has never been at a high level, period. But Alexander and Matt McMahon would be on my list with Wes Miller and maybe Steve Forbes
Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2020, 07:19:05 PM
Hmmm, okay so you're calling me a liar..I'm telling you they CAN pay $4-5 million a year for a Coach. Of course this wouldn't be for a guy like Wojo, this would be for a guy that has proven experience at the high major level.
Not calling you a liar, simply saying you are either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant of the economic factors at play. Your single choice (fire Wojo and hire away a well established HC) generates the following expenses:
-Pay Wojo's buyout (we don't know what it is but it ain't small)
-Acquire a new HC at 2x of our current salary level
-Likely have to fund some of the buyout from said HC's current school
The first and third items are one time expenses but they are big and the second is a substantial recurring expense. All of this while the demographic shift for universities generally and private universities specifically is forcing schools to really look at expenses and cut where possible. Unless your suggestion is going to bring in 3x current revenue (donations + ticket sales) it makes zero sense. Might as well sell tickets to the money burning party, it would be as profitable.
Bottom line, if you look at the metrics that matter to MU, the Wojo era has little to no decrease from the Buzz era so there is zero incentive to further ramp up our spending on basketball.
NM
The fact is that Marquette needs athletics to not only be self-sustaining (with revenues coming from a small student fee, gifts, sponsorships and ticket revenue), but they need men's basketball to cover the deficits created by the other athletic programs.
So could Marquette pay a $5 million salary? Sure. I mean, its possible.
But is Marquette going to pay a $5 million salary AND create a deficit that would need to be covered by income such as tuition? Which will likely mean cuts elsewhere?
Very doubtful. Donor(s) would need to step up big time to cover that cost on an annual basis. And with all the needs the campus has, I just don't see it happening.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 06, 2020, 08:14:47 AM
Not calling you a liar, simply saying you are either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant of the economic factors at play. Your single choice (fire Wojo and hire away a well established HC) generates the following expenses:
-Pay Wojo's buyout (we don't know what it is but it ain't small)
-Acquire a new HC at 2x of our current salary level
-Likely have to fund some of the buyout from said HC's current school
The first and third items are one time expenses but they are big and the second is a substantial recurring expense. All of this while the demographic shift for universities generally and private universities specifically is forcing schools to really look at expenses and cut where possible. Unless your suggestion is going to bring in 3x current revenue (donations + ticket sales) it makes zero sense. Might as well sell tickets to the money burning party, it would be as profitable.
Bottom line, if you look at the metrics that matter to MU, the Wojo era has little to no decrease from the Buzz era so there is zero incentive to further ramp up our spending on basketball.
Paying the new head coach 2x or 3x the current head coach's salary does not double or triple all basketball expenses. Not even close. If we pay the new head coach 2 million more than Wojo, all we need to do to break even is increase revenue by 2 million or reduce some expenses. For the buy outs, I assume most programs would just accept higher costs for a year, knowing that it's in the best interest in the long run. Do what you can to offset as much as you can for that year, then take your bath and move on.
No matter the scenario, there is no need to double or triple revenue. That's just hyperbole trying to make it seem impossible to move on from Wojo.
To follow up my last post, there's this forced Catch 22 coming from a lot of people that keep popping up in the discussion of what happens if we move on from Wojo. We've heard from many scoopers that it's the norm in college basketball to extend contracts beyond the next couple years to give recruits assurance that the coach will be around. And then we also hear that a buyout for Wojo and potentially the next coach would be a huge financial hurdle, nearly impossible to consider.
So in this view, where coaches should expect extensions and buyout clauses that schools will struggle to pay, how does a school ever pull the trigger and move on from the current coach?
Quote from: skianth16 on March 06, 2020, 08:35:49 AM
Paying the new head coach 2x or 3x the current head coach's salary does not double or triple all basketball expenses. Not even close. If we pay the new head coach 2 million more than Wojo, all we need to do to break even is increase revenue by 2 million or reduce some expenses. For the buy outs, I assume most programs would just accept higher costs for a year, knowing that it's in the best interest in the long run. Do what you can to offset as much as you can for that year, then take your bath and move on.
No matter the scenario, there is no need to double or triple revenue. That's just hyperbole trying to make it seem impossible to move on from Wojo.
I see, yes absolutely multi-million dollar organizations often just except large one time expenses with little to no increase in revenue...I had forgotten about that class in business school....good call.
It's not meant to say it's impossible to move on from Wojo....it's meant to say it's stupid to move on from Wojo AND double our coaching expenses when it is unlikely to substantially change our revenue.
Let's do some basic math here, let's assume it's $8M in buyouts(some combination of Wojo and new coach buyouts) which I think is a conservative number. Let's also assume that they spread the buyouts over 4 years, so $2M a year in additional expense. Let's also assume a $3M annual salary from this super coach Guru wants, which is a rough doubling of our current salary. Let's use $17.5M for our annual basketball revenue this year (see link below) and $4.3M for our expenses.......that's a "profit" margin of roughly 75%. If our expenses go up by $3.5M (amortized buyout plus added coach salary) to maintain the same profit margin on $7.8M in expenses our revenue would have to be $31.2M. That's what we have to do to stay neutral, so yeah I better see a 2 or 3x revenue projection before I'm making a move like that.
And yes, we could have donors step up to pay buyouts and/or supplement salaries.....but what other things is MU not able to do because those monies are going to fund Guru's fever dream? MU is in the midst of a campaign to fund a new B-school and further expand the Engineer School + Innovation Alley. What do we put on hold because we hope that paying a more established coach will result in an avalanche of tournament success and national championships.
I'm fine with getting rid of Wojo, but we better recognize that when we do that he is going to be replaced at the same or lower salary.
https://www.businessinsider.com/louisville-was-college-basketballs-biggest-money-maker-in-2016-2018-2#8-university-of-north-carolina-21408475-18 (https://www.businessinsider.com/louisville-was-college-basketballs-biggest-money-maker-in-2016-2018-2#8-university-of-north-carolina-21408475-18)
mueng - I'd be very surprised if our athletic department functioned like a publicly traded company and demanded that we maintain margins year over year when making big decisions like this. As a non-profit, I would guess the goal would be to focus more on break-even views, rather than margin-focused views. (If anyone has insights into how this is managed, I'm curious to know more on this).
Or looking at more of an NPV kind of view, you don't need to double your revenues in Year 1 to make the decision worthwhile. A coaching change could re-engage a portion of the restless fanbase, driving incremental revenue in future years. It doesn't need to happen all at once like you're suggesting.
In the scenario you're suggesting, where schools only make the change when they can maintain profit margin, no school would ever pay the buyout. It would be impossible to maintain margins for nearly all the buyout values I've seen. Coaching changes would never happen outside of end of contract situations or the coach violating a clause in their contract.
Edit - I would add to this that schools would be hard pressed to ever offer a raise to their coaches in your margin-focused view. Wasn't Wojo making about $1-$1.2 million a few years ago? And now he's up to $1.7 I think. Did MU assume a need to increase revenue by 20% when he got a raise? I just don't see your view playing out in the MU AD.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 06, 2020, 09:40:30 AM
Or looking at more of an NPV kind of view, you don't need to double your revenues in Year 1 to make the decision worthwhile. A coaching change could re-engage a portion of the restless fanbase, driving incremental revenue in future years. It doesn't need to happen all at once like you're suggesting.
How much of the fanbase is really restless? We just finished in the top 15 in attendance and sold out our last home game. We have a lot of Nojos shouting and screaming on Scoop, but in my experience those usually aren't the big donor types. I have no idea how the big donors feel about Wojo, but my guess is they're more rational than the Nojos on here. Maybe things change for season-ticket renewals next year, but that depends how the rest of the season goes. If we win an NCAA tournament game I don't think there's going to be much restlessness.
On the profit margins, we need that additional revenue to run the rest of our athletic department, so it probably is a break-even situation.
Quote from: asdfasdf on March 05, 2020, 12:01:00 PM
Yikes, my mistake. Not sure why I thought it was 1.4 million. According to the form 990 submitted in 2019 Wojo made ~2.2 million the previous year.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/390806251/08_2019_prefixes_38-42%2F390806251_201806_990_2019083016611745
asdfasdf found this earlier in the thread. Maybe his base salary was $1.7 million but his total compensation was $2.2 million
Quote from: Litehouse on March 06, 2020, 09:58:51 AM
How much of the fanbase is really restless? We just finished in the top 15 in attendance and sold out our last home game. We have a lot of Nojos shouting and screaming on Scoop, but in my experience those usually aren't the big donor types. I have no idea how the big donors feel about Wojo, but my guess is they're more rational than the Nojos on here. Maybe things change for season-ticket renewals next year, but that depends how the rest of the season goes. If we win an NCAA tournament game I don't think there's going to be much restlessness.
On the profit margins, we need that additional revenue to run the rest of our athletic department, so it probably is a break-even situation.
Completely fair question to ask, and it's hard to truly tell. My view is that attendance rankings probably don't tell the whole story since we play in a bigger stadium than most schools. Attendance change from one year to the next for MU would help clarify more. Or maybe season tickets sold from one year to the next. I'm sure there are metrics the athletic dept tracks that would give more clarity here.
I will say that most of the comments I've seen online this season outside of Scoop, and the conversations I hear among fans at Fiserv are more negative than positive when it comes to Wojo. Obviously, that's a very small sample of the overall fanbase, and there's some confirmation bias on my part in there too. But the complaints seem noticeable in the last 15 months than I can remember since '05 when I first started following the team.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 06, 2020, 09:40:30 AM
mueng - I'd be very surprised if our athletic department functioned like a publicly traded company and demanded that we maintain margins year over year when making big decisions like this. As a non-profit, I would guess the goal would be to focus more on break-even views, rather than margin-focused views. (If anyone has insights into how this is managed, I'm curious to know more on this).
Or looking at more of an NPV kind of view, you don't need to double your revenues in Year 1 to make the decision worthwhile. A coaching change could re-engage a portion of the restless fanbase, driving incremental revenue in future years. It doesn't need to happen all at once like you're suggesting.
In the scenario you're suggesting, where schools only make the change when they can maintain profit margin, no school would ever pay the buyout. It would be impossible to maintain margins for nearly all the buyout values I've seen. Coaching changes would never happen outside of end of contract situations or the coach violating a clause in their contract.
Edit - I would add to this that schools would be hard pressed to ever offer a raise to their coaches in your margin-focused view. Wasn't Wojo making about $1-$1.2 million a few years ago? And now he's up to $1.7 I think. Did MU assume a need to increase revenue by 20% when he got a raise? I just don't see your view playing out in the MU AD.
The basketball margin pays for the rest of the athletic department funding (by and large) so even if you don't assume similar profit margins and want to break even.....any such more has to generate roughly $3.5M a year in the first four years using my example....that means 20% increase in revenue in the next four years. You aren't going to get that when MU is already in the top 15 in attendance. Maybe there are big donors out there that aren't investing because of Wojo that flips this equation on it's head but I'm highly highly doubtful there is a significant pool of donor money waiting to be collected.
Again, I'm not saying don't get rid of Wojo......we absolutely can but we are going to replace him with someone within our means which means a low level HC or an up and coming assistant.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 06, 2020, 10:20:54 AM
Attendance change from one year to the next for MU would help clarify more.
Here's what I found for avg attendance:
2016 - 13,308
2017 - 13,715
2018 - 12,323 (the Al NIT games dropped this)
2019 - 15,611 (Fiserv bump and UW at home)
2020 - 15,145
This year held pretty steady from the previous year, considering the new arena novelty is gone and UW was away. I don't have season ticket holder numbers, but I'm guessing this year was pretty close to last year.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 06, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
Here's what I found for avg attendance:
2016 - 13,308
2017 - 13,715
2018 - 12,323 (the Al NIT games dropped this)
2019 - 15,611 (Fiserv bump and UW at home)
2020 - 15,145
This year held pretty steady from the previous year, considering the new arena novelty is gone and UW was away. I don't have season ticket holder numbers, but I'm guessing this year was pretty close to last year.
Correct, and this is why I said the metrics that matter to MU (STH#, overall attendance, potential student applications, application conversions, etc) are not getting appreciably worse. Until that happens, I don't think Wojo gets canned and there is almost no way MU blows up the current coaching model while also firing Wojo.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 06, 2020, 10:24:55 AM
The basketball margin pays for the rest of the athletic department funding (by and large) so even if you don't assume similar profit margins and want to break even.....any such more has to generate roughly $3.5M a year in the first four years using my example....that means 20% increase in revenue in the next four years. You aren't going to get that when MU is already in the top 15 in attendance. Maybe there are big donors out there that aren't investing because of Wojo that flips this equation on it's head but I'm highly highly doubtful there is a significant pool of donor money waiting to be collected.
Again, I'm not saying don't get rid of Wojo......we absolutely can but we are going to replace him with someone within our means which means a low level HC or an up and coming assistant.
This is a reasonable take, and I think it's a very fair point to make. I think you're right in the big picture in saying that hiring a big name coach with a big salary demand will be tough to do. Adding to that the fact that the talent pool in that salary range is more limited to begin with, and I would agree that it's highly unlikely that we go after a big fish.
Quote from: JWags85 on March 05, 2020, 11:56:31 PMIve spoken my mind about Becker, I wouldn't prefer a low-major guy in his mid 50s who has never been at a high level, period.
I get it, but let's be honest about Becker. He's 51 & will probably be doing this for another 15-20 years.
An older coach is fine and maybe even preferable. If he's successful the first 5 years, he's 56 and not young enough for the big dogs to go after but is young enough to stick for a decade plus. He's not my first or only choice, but he's consistently improved his 3-year batch numbers (maybe hitting a ceiling this year) and his teams are vastly better than anything Lonergan did. He'd be worth a look.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 05, 2020, 11:34:20 PM
MU absolutely could. It's a matter of whether they're willing to do it.
I've got to think that there are tons of mid-major coaches that would love to have a shot to move into the Big East. A guy like John Becker at Vermont who has been super successful for a long stretch makes sense to me. Or maybe we give Matt McMahon from Murray State a look, assuming we can get over the hard feelings from last March. Casey Alexander from Belmont is interesting too. He did well at Lipscomb the last few years and is now having a strong first year as the HC at Belmont, where he was a long-time assistant.
Heck, what about Mark Pope at BYU, Anthony Grant from Dayton, or Ben Jacobs at UNI. They're all having great seasons this year, but they're not in top tier destinations.
These are the kinds of coaches I'd be excited to get. And I don't see why it would be hard for us to lure these guys away from their current positions. The money, the conference, the facilities, the recruiting power... it would all be a big step up. Seems like a win-win to me.
First; it's Jacobson, not Jacobs. He's a reasonable candidate but he's got a very large buyout. Unless Wojo leaves on his own MU isn't going to be able to afford to pay both.
Second; Pope? Really? He's LDS, BYU is his dream job and for him, it is a "top tier destination." They have more money than we do to keep him around. Plus, he just finished his first year with a senior (citizen) laden team left by his predecessor. Besides, he's nearly guaranteed to finish in the top three every year in a multi-bid league and be in contention for the tourney.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on March 06, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
First; it's Jacobson, not Jacobs. He's a reasonable candidate but he's got a very large buyout. Unless Wojo leaves on his own MU isn't going to be able to afford to pay both.
Second; Pope? Really? He's LDS, BYU is his dream job and for him, it is a "top tier destination." They have more money than we do to keep him around. Plus, he just finished his first year with a senior (citizen) laden team left by his predecessor. Besides, he's nearly guaranteed to finish in the top three every year in a multi-bid league and be in contention for the tourney.
I should have put the religious connection in for Pope. Duh, makes total sense.
I'm not nearly as informed on who's in/out of the coaching carousel as others here. I was just responding to the idea that MU would struggle to get a proven D1 coach. And in that sense, there are plenty of guys out there doing a good job for lesser schools/conferences. Guys like the coaches mentioned above aren't overly abundant, but they're not super scarce either. I've got to think there are some good opportunities available for MU if we look for current HCs.
Quote from: skianth16 on March 06, 2020, 12:34:24 PM
I should have put the religious connection in for Pope. Duh, makes total sense.
I'm not nearly as informed on who's in/out of the coaching carousel as others here. I was just responding to the idea that MU would struggle to get a proven D1 coach. And in that sense, there are plenty of guys out there doing a good job for lesser schools/conferences. Guys like the coaches mentioned above aren't overly abundant, but they're not super scarce either. I've got to think there are some good opportunities available for MU if we look for current HCs.
It's a rule that BYU coaches have to be LDS. It greatly limits qualified candidates. In football, they only had two legit candidates and were turned down by their top choice. If Pope hadn't accepted their next choice was Barrett Perry of Portland State.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 06, 2020, 08:14:47 AM
Not calling you a liar, simply saying you are either intentionally or unintentionally ignorant of the economic factors at play. Your single choice (fire Wojo and hire away a well established HC) generates the following expenses:
-Pay Wojo's buyout (we don't know what it is but it ain't small)
-Acquire a new HC at 2x of our current salary level
-Likely have to fund some of the buyout from said HC's current school
The first and third items are one time expenses but they are big and the second is a substantial recurring expense. All of this while the demographic shift for universities generally and private universities specifically is forcing schools to really look at expenses and cut where possible. Unless your suggestion is going to bring in 3x current revenue (donations + ticket sales) it makes zero sense. Might as well sell tickets to the money burning party, it would be as profitable.
Bottom line, if you look at the metrics that matter to MU, the Wojo era has little to no decrease from the Buzz era so there is zero incentive to further ramp up our spending on basketball.
Your points are all valid, however as we all know every school has donors that help with this stuff. MU is no different. Thus, the actual money MU pays out, wouldn't be as significant as it seems, a very sizable chunk of it would be taken care of by donors.
Bennett will never come to MU. He thinks that we screwed his dad, who finally go to UW.
Quote from: muguru on March 06, 2020, 01:38:05 PM
Your points are all valid, however as we all know every school has donors that help with this stuff. MU is no different. Thus, the actual money MU pays out, wouldn't be as significant as it seems, a very sizable chunk of it would be taken care of by donors.
That assumes there are big donors that really want to get rid of Wojo. We just don't know if that's true or not.
Quote from: harryp on March 06, 2020, 01:59:06 PM
Bennett will never come to MU. He thinks that we screwed his dad, who finally go to UW. is a legend at a better school and program than MU, and most likely is paid better than MU can pay him.
FIFY.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 06, 2020, 02:05:02 PM
That assumes there are big donors that really want to get rid of Wojo. We just don't know if that's true or not.
Correct, but IF the decision is made to let him go, donors would be called and asked if they would be willing to help out etc.
Quote from: muguru on March 06, 2020, 02:28:26 PM
Correct, but IF the decision is made to let him go, donors would be called and asked if they would be willing to help out etc.
Had a golden opportunity with Give Marquette Day. Could have had an option to put towards Wojo's buyout.
Quote from: muguru on March 06, 2020, 02:28:26 PM
Correct, but IF the decision is made to let him go, donors would be called and asked if they would be willing to help out etc.
So to get a high value coach you are cool with taking $14M (my approximation based on the scenario) away from other funding efforts at MU whether by direct expense or re-directing of donation dollars?
I mean, if we have a donor(s) that's willing to pony up the money necessary and it has zero impact on other MU funding efforts, totally down. It's just that there is slim to no chance(with slim on a horse out of town) that there is money sitting around waiting to fire Wojo and hire a big name coach.....wouldn't we have done that post-Crean or post-Buzz?
Quote from: mu03eng on March 06, 2020, 03:08:20 PM
So to get a high value coach you are cool with taking $14M (my approximation based on the scenario) away from other funding efforts at MU whether by direct expense or re-directing of donation dollars?
I mean, if we have a donor(s) that's willing to pony up the money necessary and it has zero impact on other MU funding efforts, totally down. It's just that there is slim to no chance(with slim on a horse out of town) that there is money sitting around waiting to fire Wojo and hire a big name coach.....wouldn't we have done that post-Crean or post-Buzz?
Not saying it's feasible or a good idea but you have to remember that guru, like me, did not go to Marquette so I'm sure he would be cool with taking money away from other things. However, it's not realistic in my mind. I think the only way Marquette pays a coach $4-5 million is if that coach is here for a decade plus and wins big over the long haul.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 06, 2020, 11:26:21 AM
I get it, but let's be honest about Becker. He's 51 & will probably be doing this for another 15-20 years.
An older coach is fine and maybe even preferable. If he's successful the first 5 years, he's 56 and not young enough for the big dogs to go after but is young enough to stick for a decade plus. He's not my first or only choice, but he's consistently improved his 3-year batch numbers (maybe hitting a ceiling this year) and his teams are vastly better than anything Lonergan did. He'd be worth a look.
I didn't mean it like he was close to retirement. But he'd be 52 and never recruited anywhere close to the level it would take at Marquette. He's a great coach and Xs and Os guy, but the Big East is a long way from America East where you can coach up 2 stars. Anthony Lamb was a fantastic player, and probably the best he had, and he chose Vermont over Stony Brook. I don't think he's had a top 200 recruit, much less top 150, in his time there. Thats my concern. A young mid major coach is one thing, someone who spent his coaching career at the D3 level and then the low major level worries me a bit.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 06, 2020, 02:39:21 PM
Had a golden opportunity with Give Marquette Day. Could have had an option to put towards Wojo's buyout.
LOL
Now that is funny.
The recruiting aspect is why I would shy away from a mid major/low major Head Coach. I just don't think they could recruit at a level high enough for MU. I also am tired of them going the assistant route as well.
Quote from: muguru on March 06, 2020, 06:52:01 PM
The recruiting aspect is why I would shy away from a mid major/low major Head Coach. I just don't think they could recruit at a level high enough for MU. I also am tired of them going the assistant route as well.
And I assume you'd be against going after a mediocre coach at the high major level. Which leaves us with...who, exactly, that would leave the job they're having success at?
High major coach having success, up and leaves for a program that just fired its coach coming off back to back NCAA appearances and 3 in the last 4 years, with a 5 star and 2 4 stars coming in.
Sorry, but not many coaches with a successful track record are jumping at that situation.
Best option if he's healthy (big if) is Thad Matta. No buyout, probably the best college coach to never win a title (sorry Beilein, you're no Thad), elite recruiter, and young enough to stick for 15 years.
If he's healthy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 06, 2020, 08:02:34 PM
Best option if he's healthy (big if) is Thad Matta. No buyout, probably the best college coach to never win a title (sorry Beilein, you're no Thad), elite recruiter, and young enough to stick for 15 years.
If he's healthy.
I don't remember his name being associated with any openings last season and I haven't heard any early mentions of him this season. My guess is that he's not healthy.
I think Titus saw him at a game this year and said he was itching but also liked being away.
Quote from: muguru on March 06, 2020, 06:52:01 PM
The recruiting aspect is why I would shy away from a mid major/low major Head Coach. I just don't think they could recruit at a level high enough for MU. I also am tired of them going the assistant route as well.
In a lot of ways, the bigger schools sell themselves. Sure, there's probably a learning curve for coaches that are used to recruiting for schools like Buffalo or Vermont moving into the big leagues, but with the added resources and the better "selling story" I think a lot of coaches would adapt quite well.
I have no interest in Matta. His OSU teams were declining dramatically in his last few years.
Maybe that was due to health, but it's a huge risk.
Quote from: TAMU Garcia on March 06, 2020, 09:57:47 PM
I don't remember his name being associated with any openings last season and I haven't heard any early mentions of him this season. My guess is that he's not healthy.
He interviewed for one, can't remember which, but when it didn't go forward, I wondered if it was health concerns. Like I said, big if.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2020, 02:41:51 PM
Jae Crowder went to Howard University?
No, he went to Howard College in Texas.