In a sincere attempt to understand "the other side of the aisle" - I'm really curious, 4 years and 5 games into the Wojo era, do the Wojo faithful still feel the same optimism from Years 2 or 3 or 4 that Wojo will bring Marquette back to national relevance?
I think most would agree that he's an above average recruiter and that it's nice to not have to worry about the MU name popping up in any FBI investigations. But has his performance to date - accounting for all 130 games - still made you think he's the guy?
To me, the guy seems inflexible as a coach. One-dimensional offenses, limited in-game adjustments, bad (but improving) defenses, not competing for 40 full minutes, sub-par roster management... All the same things he has been critiqued for since Year 1 seem to still be there, with defense maybe being an exception with this year's team.
And just to be clear, I'm not writing off the season by any means, but I'm also no closer to thinking Wojo is a capable head coach than I have been the last 4 years.
- Joe didn't start tonight.
- Markus was allowed to take a ton of bad shots when we desperately needed points.
- We had a 9 (!!!) minute scoring drought.
- Joe, Jamal, and Sacar look scared to even play offense.
- We never attacked Azibuike when he got his 3rd foul.
- It took us 35 (!!!) minutes to take a single free throw.
That stuff falls on Wojo in my book. He has a talented roster, but he's not getting 100% out of it right now.
Louisville is a REALLY big game
I do not feel the same optimism.
I'm willing to let this year play out.
I'm not upset about tonight.
I'll be very upset if we lose Friday.
Timing of the post....
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 22, 2018, 02:14:38 AM
Timing of the post....
Just up late fighting off some lingering jet lag from a trip overseas. Not what it may appear to be.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 01:19:24 AM
And just to be clear, I'm not writing off the season by any means, but I'm also no closer to thinking Wojo is a capable head coach than I have been the last 4 years.
- Joe didn't start tonight.
- Markus was allowed to take a ton of bad shots when we desperately needed points.
- We had a 9 (!!!) minute scoring drought.
- Joe, Jamal, and Sacar look scared to even play offense.
- We never attacked Azibuike when he got his 3rd foul.
- It took us 35 (!!!) minutes to take a single free throw.
That stuff falls on Wojo in my book. He has a talented roster, but he's not getting 100% out of it right now.
Can't fault you for any of this. The last point especially, and it is related to your 4th point. Nobody driving or attacking. I was one of the few people going in who thought we could win this game, and it was there for the taking.
Just as I was stewing in my "what could have been" mode, a gentleman sitting next to me at the bar (ironically an IU grad, who didn't watch our debacle against his alma mater) chimed in that MU impressed him greatly. This wouldn't be a big deal, until I found out he coached HS basketball in the Chicago suburbs for years, and really knows the game. He correctly noted how for the first time in years, we have a nice inside presence with Theo (and hopefully Morrow...if that block becomes a regular occurrence), he restated the obvious: how good the Hausers are. He also noted Cain and Bailey's length and that breakout games can take awhile with freshman, and once they get confidence (Brendan), look out. Maybe he was just trying to console me, but his next words shocked me...." your team looks like a team who, by March, nobody will want to play...I could easily see you guys making a deep run." Hope he is right.
And no, I am not drunk (timing of post lol). Just recurring insomnia.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 22, 2018, 02:50:58 AM
Can't fault you for any of this. The last point especially, and it is related to your 4th point. Nobody driving or attacking. I was one of the few people going in who thought we could win this game, and it was there for the taking.
Just as I was stewing in my "what could have been" mode, a gentleman sitting next to me at the bar (ironically an IU grad, who didn't watch our debacle against his alma mater) chimed in that MU impressed him greatly. This wouldn't be a big deal, until I found out he coached HS basketball in the Chicago suburbs for years, and really knows the game. He correctly noted how for the first time in years, we have a nice inside presence with Theo (and hopefully Morrow...if that block becomes a regular occurrence), he restated the obvious: how good the Hausers are. He also noted Cain and Bailey's length and that breakout games can take awhile with freshman, and once they get confidence (Brendan), look out. Maybe he was just trying to console me, but his next words shocked me...." your team looks like a team who, by March, nobody will want to play...I could easily see you guys making a deep run." Hope he is right.
And no, I am not drunk (timing of post lol). Just recurring insomnia.
Was the IU guy drunk?
It is just past 10:30 am CST and that second half from last night makes me want to have a drink.
I appreciate that our guys will improve, but what about our coaching?
By all appearances Wojo is a really good guy, represents MU in the way I think that way most of us want to be represented.
But.....nothing I have seen would suggest that he can coach at the level we aspire to. In game adjustments, or lack of would support this IMO.
Lots of people on Scoop with good info say the seat is not hot, ok but I think it should be. At least an audible clock ticking in the background.
Gotta beat L'Ville or there will be a smoking crater where Scoop used to be.
Happy Thanksgiving to all you Scoopers.
Quote from: manny31 on November 22, 2018, 10:46:17 AM
By all appearances Wojo is a really good guy, represents MU in the way I think that way most of us want to be represented.
But.....nothing I have seen would suggest that he can coach at the level we aspire to. In game adjustments, or lack of would support this IMO.
Lots of people on Scoop with good info say the seat is not hot, ok but I think it should be. At least an audible clock ticking in the background.
Call me crazy, but if the biggest thing in the pros column for Wojo is just the squeaky clean image, that can't be enough for him to keep his job. Right? Winning (aka ROI) has to mean something to the powers that be.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 01:19:24 AM
And just to be clear, I'm not writing off the season by any means, but I'm also no closer to thinking Wojo is a capable head coach than I have been the last 4 years.
- Joe didn't start tonight. Agree
- Markus was allowed to take a ton of bad shots when we desperately needed points. Yes and no shooters will shoot, remember same about Rowsey, but can't be PG for that long
- We had a 9 (!!!) minute scoring drought. Missing shots we made in 1st half and dumb turnovers
- Joe, Jamal, and Sacar look scared to even play offense. Joe and Sacar not expected to play good on offense that is gravy if they do. Cain had a bad offensive game, it happens, plus maybe too much energy spent on hard D
- We never attacked Azibuike when he got his 3rd foul.Don't really have someone to be able to and refs (not to say it is their fault) seemed more reluctant to call fouls in 2nd half against him
- It took us 35 (!!!) minutes to take a single free throw. We couldn't really drive against their bigs inside, the few times we tried we weren't successful most of the time, and don't think refs were giving us benefit of the doubt on fouls
That stuff falls on Wojo in my book. He has a talented roster, but he's not getting 100% out of it right now. He is the coach so ultimately, yes, but I saw a lot of improvement
This game gave me a better feeling than IU. One of the main things I put on Wojo when Joe and Markus are in at the same time no way should Markus be PG, Joe becomes a liability on offense and it is easier to defend Markus. Tomorrow's game is huge. If we win I think we will be right on our way, if we lose it will become almost a must we win all remaining non conference games.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 10:54:30 AM
Call me crazy, but if the biggest thing in the pros column for Wojo is just the squeaky clean image, that can't be enough for him to keep his job. Right? Winning (aka ROI) has to mean something to the powers that be.
The powers that be are very happy with Wojo and how he represents the University.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 11:07:18 AM
The powers that be are very happy with Wojo and how he represents the University.
Are basketball coaches such degenerates that no one out there is capable of both winning and playing by the rules? Or is that at least the university's position?
Things are really off right now, definitely think other coaches would be getting more out of this team. Very disappointing for a year five team. Very depressing that we keep seeing the same mistakes and horrible offense in year five. I am just not sure Wojo is the guy.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Are basketball coaches such degenerates that no one out there is capable of both winning and playing by the rules? Or is that at least the university's position?
Obviously not and I don't know.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Are basketball coaches such degenerates that no one out there is capable of both winning and playing by the rules? Or is that at least the university's position?
All coaches cheat.
if being "clean" (IE not caught) is the top pro we have for him, things are looking bleak. I think by far the most glaring issue is that of the scoring droughts. They happen in every big game, and even a lot of cupcakes. Now all teams can go a couple of minutes without scoring every once and a while. But Marquette has perfected that art, how many games have been lost in the past 5 years because they didn't make a basket for 5,6,7,8,9 or 10 minutes?
Quote from: Newsdreams on November 22, 2018, 10:57:30 AM
This game gave me a better feeling than IU. One of the main things I put on Wojo when Joe and Markus are in at the same time no way should Markus be PG, Joe becomes a liability on offense and it is easier to defend Markus. Tomorrow's game is huge. If we win I think we will be right on our way, if we lose it will become almost a must we win all remaining non conference games.
This is a great point too. It falls under roster management issues, which Wojo still struggles with. Something has to give here soon.
Quote from: #UnleashMatt on November 22, 2018, 11:41:29 AM
if being "clean" (IE not caught) is the top pro we have for him, things are looking bleak.
This is exactly why I wanted to hear from other people who are still fans of his. So far, we aren't really getting any feedback about what there is to like or why we should be optimistic.
Wojo is a good guy and wants to succeed badly here. However, he hasn't met my expectations as a fan which are:
Five year period:
-3 NCAA tournaments (seed doesn't matter and losing in the first round is acceptable)
-1 NCAA tournament (team has a 5+ seed and wins 1+ games)
-1 year of no postseason (NIT is a bonus but I don't really care about that tournament personally)
Certainly a failure in the first five years. Yes, you can point to the fact that it was a "total rebuild" but honestly a good coach should have his team up and running by year 2 (or 3 at the latest).
What concerns me is that I'm not confident wojo will meet my expectations (which I think are pretty reasonable) in the second five year plan (MU_FiveYrPlan_2.ppt).
I also think the wojo "hot seat" talk is loser talk. Anytime fans start debating whether the coach is on the hot seat means only one thing which is that the team kind of sucks and has for quite some time.
Are there any examples of coaches that have once been on the "hot seat" (according to fans) and have gone on to turn it around and have sustained success?
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 10:54:30 AM
Call me crazy, but if the biggest thing in the pros column for Wojo is just the squeaky clean image, that can't be enough for him to keep his job. Right? Winning (aka ROI) has to mean something to the powers that be.
Winning while not dragging the university's name through the mud is paramount. MU has long made that decision. Some of you either better get on board with this, or start following another program. That isn't going to change despite protestations from some fans.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 12:03:44 PM
Winning while not dragging the university's name through the mud is paramount. MU has long made that decision. Some of you either better get on board with this, or start following another program. That isn't going to change despite protestations from some fans.
Well, winning AND not dragging the university's name in the mud is good. We need to work on the winning part. Winning regularly, getting ranked, getting to NCAA tourney and winning some games there
Chico's is right. MU made decision on how they want the basketball program to be run, and good for them. Seven years ago I realized the direction of the program changed. Sadly, I still slip into believing that MU is still a basketball school.
Quote from: Daniel on November 22, 2018, 12:12:24 PM
Well, winning AND not dragging the university's name in the mud is good. We need to work on the winning part. Winning regularly, getting ranked, getting to NCAA tourney and winning some games there
Average of 20 wins the last three years. One NCAA and one NIT. .500 record in the Big East in that time period in which the conference was never worse than 3rd in the nation.
We will go to the NCAAs this year. The amount of panic over two losses that all experts and unbiased (Ken pom) said would happen has been strange. I know, it was not that we lost, but how. At the conclusion, Michigan State lost to Kansas as did Marquette. An L is an L.
Unbiased ranking (Ken Pom)
2019 34th currently
2018 53rd
2017 32nd
----------
2016 97th
2015 93rd
2014 68th (Coach Williams last year)
It looks to me like the last few years are different than the ones preceding
Quote from: Goose on November 22, 2018, 12:17:49 PM
Chico's is right. MU made decision on how they want the basketball program to be run, and good for them. Seven years ago I realized the direction of the program changed. Sadly, I still slip into believing that MU is still a basketball school.
Ok Chicos. ::)
Meanwhile, Marquette is still a basketball school. To suggest otherwise is wrong. We are playing in Fiserv Arena, not at some dump down the street. We're in the Big East, not some mid major conference. We have improved over the last three years and will make the NCAAs this year, next year and beyond. Some of you have the outlook of negativity that is downright depressing.
So we're punting on year 5 just 5 games into the season?
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 12:33:26 PM
So we're punting on year 5 just 5 games into the season?
You obviously disagree and think Wojo is up to the task of providing a solid performance this year. Care to expand on why that is? That was the point of the thread in the first place.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 12:03:44 PM
Winning while not dragging the university's name through the mud is paramount. MU has long made that decision. Some of you either better get on board with this, or start following another program. That isn't going to change despite protestations from some fans.
We haven't been winning, though, at least not at the level Crean or Buzz had us at. We're winning at a Mike Deane level. Heck, if Sumner and Mo Watson hadn't gotten hurt in Wojo's third year, that 4-0 against Xavier and Creighton is probably 0-4 or 1-3 and we don't make the tournament.
Anim, Heldt, John, Chartouny, Morrow, Cain, Bailey. These guys look Mike Deane players.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 12:44:13 PM
You obviously disagree and think Wojo is up to the task of providing a solid performance this year. Care to expand on why that is? That was the point of the thread in the first place.
I'll try. This team has one senior, doesn't even play much. We're picked 2nd in the Big East for a reason. Some have even picked us as a darkhorse Final Four team (CBS). It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose. We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman. We have a key player out due to a thumb injury. The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected. I also expect that we will finish in the NCAA tournament. Maybe you had us at 5-0. Good for you, but you would have been wrong.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 12:45:39 PM
We haven't been winning, though, at least not at the level Crean or Buzz had us at. We're winning at a Mike Deane level. Heck, if Sumner and Mo Watson hadn't gotten hurt in Wojo's third year, that 4-0 against Xavier and Creighton is probably 0-4 or 1-3 and we don't make the tournament.
Anim, Heldt, John, Chartouny, Morrow, Cain, Bailey. These guys look Mike Deane players.
Mike Deane took a NCAA team and when he left we weren't even a NIT team, in Conference USA. His recruiting was terrible.
Wojo took a non-NIT team, in the Big East, has competed in a Big East that has won two of the last three national titles, multiple Final Four and Elite eight teams. He has us picked to be a NCAA team and 2nd place finisher in the Big East.
Your comparison is ill conceived on every level starting with the words Mike Deane.
Crean had a once in a generation player and plenty of ups and downs. Coach Buzz had good years and not so good years. With some off court issues for both those coaches that no longer is tolerated apparently. Different teams, difference conferences, different rules / policies for coaches to follow. This last part seems to keep being missed by fans.
Your comments about the players is uncalled for. Brandon Bailey was a top 100 even top 50 player.
He's a freshman. https://247sports.com/college/marquette/Article/Brendan-Bailey-is-Marquettes-recruit-on-a-Mormon-Mission-105778530/
Ed Morrow was a top 100 player in some service when he signed with Nebraska at 95, a 4 star ranking. Deane didn't get those kinds of players.
Mike Deane wishes he could have recruited a Jamal Cain, who chose us over Florida State, Georgia and Cincinnati. Kid is going to be good. Deane wishes he could have landed a John who chose us over Minnesota, Purdue, Cal.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 12:46:36 PM
I'll try. This team has one senior, doesn't even play much. We're picked 2nd in the Big East for a reason. Some have even picked us as a darkhorse Final Four team (CBS). It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose. We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman. We have a key player out due to a thumb injury. The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected. I also expect that we will finish in the NCAA tournament. Maybe you had us at 5-0. Good for you, but you would have been wrong.
Pretty much, yup. We got boat raced on the road in a hostile environment where both teams were playing their first meaningful game. Ideal? Of course not. Reason to cancel the season? For reasonable people, no. There were a maximum of maybe 5 teams that might've beat IU that night. To me it doesn't matter if we lose by 45 or 3.
We then competed with, but ultimately lost to, one of what I consider to be a group of maybe 6 teams that can win the national title this year on a neutral court. Again, ideal? No. But reason to cancel the season? Again, no.
Win Friday and we're just fine. Go 2-1 or better in our last 3 big non-con games (or just go 3-1 including Louisville) and I think we can very easily get to 12 conference wins. If we do that I think we're a 6ish seed. Which is exactly what I've been expecting.
The offense will come around. Chartouny is showing signs of being a floor general which is what we need. My only concern is Markus being a ball stopper. If we get that out of the offense I'm very confident in our ability to win big games, including in the NCAA a tournament.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 12:45:39 PM
We haven't been winning, though, at least not at the level Crean or Buzz had us at. We're winning at a Mike Deane level. Heck, if Sumner and Mo Watson hadn't gotten hurt in Wojo's third year, that 4-0 against Xavier and Creighton is probably 0-4 or 1-3 and we don't make the tournament.
Anim, Heldt, John, Chartouny, Morrow, Cain, Bailey. These guys look Mike Deane players.
Playing the "if" game is a slippery slope, and one that works both ways.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 12:53:58 PM
Pretty much, yup. We got boat raced on the road in a hostile environment where both teams were playing their first meaningful game. Ideal? Of course not. Reason to cancel the season? For reasonable people, no. There were a maximum of maybe 5 teams that might've beat IU that night. To me it doesn't matter if we lose by 45 or 3.
We then competed with, but ultimately lost to, one of what I consider to be a group of maybe 6 teams that can win the national title this year on a neutral court. Again, ideal? No. But reason to cancel the season? Again, no.
Win Friday and we're just fine. Go 2-1 or better in our last 3 big non-con games (or just go 3-1 including Louisville) and I think we can very easily get to 12 conference wins. If we do that I think we're a 6ish seed. Which is exactly what I've been expecting.
The offense will come around. Chartouny is showing signs of being a floor general which is what we need. My only concern is Markus being a ball stopper. If we get that out of the offense I'm very confident in our ability to win big games, including in the NCAA a tournament.
Not a single comment about Wojo and why you think he's capable of winning. Telling.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 12:19:31 PM
Average of 20 wins the last three years. One NCAA and one NIT. .500 record in the Big East in that time period in which the conference was never worse than 3rd in the nation.
Whoopee!!!!
We're averaging one NCAA berth, one NIT berth and one shutout every 3 years. And zero NCAA tourney wins. Those are lower than the expectations that Mike Deane was fired for.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 01:01:58 PM
Not a single comment about Wojo and why you think he's capable of winning. Telling.
What are you hoping to hear?
I expect the team Wojo has to be a 6ish seed in the NCAA Tournament this year. What more would make you comfortable?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 01:02:37 PM
Whoopee!!!!
We're averaging one NCAA berth, one NIT berth and one shutout every 3 years. And zero NCAA tourney wins. Those are lower than the expectations that Mike Deane was fired for.
If we make the NCAAs this year and next year, which I predict we will in both situations, that will be three NCAAs in four years, with the other year a NIT year.
Mike Deane got fired for terrible recruiting, in an also ran conference, with a trend line that was not good. Wojo's trend line isn't the same, but rather much higher than Deane's was. The comparisons are bizarre.
Coach Williams left MU, he also has zero tourney wins in his new stint, but he's doing well. NCAA tournament wins don't always align with success or failure of the team that year.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 12:46:36 PM
I'll try. This team has one senior, doesn't even play much. We're picked 2nd in the Big East for a reason. Some have even picked us as a darkhorse Final Four team (CBS). It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose. We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman. We have a key player out due to a thumb injury. The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected. I also expect that we will finish in the NCAA tournament. Maybe you had us at 5-0. Good for you, but you would have been wrong.
Pre-season picks don't matter. Analysts saw the talent and depth on paper that isn't playing out. I highly doubt anyone would have us as a final four contender after seeing the product on the floor so far. And not because it's been awful, but because the expected performance for guys like Joe, Morrow, and Bailey have been not been anywhere close to being met.
I also see the commentary on Greg this year being similar to the commentary on Harry from last year. Be patient, the key piece will be available in a few weeks. Greg was on par or maybe a bit behind Jamal last year. If Greg were able to come back tomorrow and perform at the level Jamal is at right away, it would help with some depth, but ultimately wouldn't make a big impact.
As many others have stated, I'm not as worried about the record as I am about the product on the floor. We haven't competed for 40 minutes yet. I'm not sure we've competed for 30 minutes yet. That is troubling for the remainder of the season when the schedule becomes less lopsided.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 01:05:58 PM
What are you hoping to hear?
I expect the team Wojo has to be a 6ish seed in the NCAA Tournament this year. What more would make you comfortable?
You defend Wojo over and over but offer no reasons why you think he's good at what he does. Critiques of Wojo are specific. Defenses of Wojo are not. Doesn't make sense to me. If you disagree with the criticism, I would think you'd have a similarly long list of things you've seen that make you think he's a good coach or at least that the criticism offered is wrong.
Saying you expect to make the tournament isn't much of an explanation as to why we should believe in Wojo as a head coach.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 01:11:27 PM
You defend Wojo over and over but offer no reasons why you think he's good at what he does. Critiques of Wojo are specific. Defenses of Wojo are not. Doesn't make sense to me. If you disagree with the criticism, I would think you'd have a similarly long list of things you've seen that make you think he's a good coach or at least that the criticism offered is wrong.
Saying you expect to make the tournament isn't much of an explanation as to why we should believe in Wojo as a head coach.
I believe in Wojo as a head coach because I think he's put together a team that will compete for a BE title.
All you want to hear is a counter to "our D sucks?" Okay, well our O has been one of the best in the country. Does that help?
Or does this season disprove that? Then wouldn't the "our D sucks" be disproven?
Quote from: Its DJOver on November 22, 2018, 12:59:17 PM
Playing the "if" game is a slippery slope, and one that works both ways.
My point was we weren't a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 01:22:03 PM
My point was we weren't a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.
Tournament is a crapshoot. South Carolina was not a top 4 team that year, but they got hot at the right time.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 01:22:03 PM
My point was we weren't a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.
Duke must've sucked that year too, hey?
UVA must've been one of the worst teams in the country last year as evidenced by their blowout loss to a low major program in the tournament.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 01:22:03 PM
My point was we weren't a very good team that year, as evidenced by our blowout loss in the tournament.
Was Virginia a good team last year? They were ranked #1 for a good chunk of it, but got blown out in the NCAA tournament by a 16 seed.
In your mind, one game performance defines that a team isn't very good? Oklahoma made the Final Four a few years ago and Villanova creamed them, therefore Oklahoma wasn't a very good team, as evidence by their blowout loss in the tournament?
The South Carolina team that blew us out, the game was tied with under 10 minutes to play if memory serves. Also, if memory serves SC went to the Final Four, they were on an amazing run.
So when we get blown out in our one and only tournament game under Wojo, it's beyond irrelevant because other teams lose in the tournament and it's a crapshoot anyway. When we lose to Indiana and Kansas, no biggie, those were our two toughest games of the season. If we get beat by Kansas State next week, it'll be, "We lost to a top 15 team." Should we fall to Nova later this year, we can say, "We lost to the defending national champions." I think I've got it down. I'd always wondered how Antonio Banderas felt during that montage scene in The Thirteenth Warrior where he learns the Viking language, and now I know.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 12:33:26 PM
So we're punting on year 5 just 5 games into the season?
No we are just b:;$&ing about a couple of bitter losses.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
So when we get blown out in our one and only tournament game under Wojo, it's beyond irrelevant because other teams lose in the tournament and it's a crapshoot anyway. When we lose to Indiana and Kansas, no biggie, those were our two toughest games of the season. If we get beat by Kansas State next week, it'll be, "We lost to a top 15 team." Should we fall to Nova later this year, we can say, "We lost to the defending national champions." I think I've got it down. I'd always wondered how Antonio Banderas felt during that montage scene in The Thirteenth Warrior where he learns the Viking language, and now I know.
Good idea to change your argument.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Good idea to change your argument.
What's your argument? That good teams can lose in a one game playoff? That the tournament is a crapshoot? Okay, fine. Let's throw out tournament losses, but if we do that, we can also throw out tournament wins. Post season no matta. So how does one judge the overall quality of a team in any given season? By looking at what they did in the regular season? If that's the case, in four years and five games at the helm, Wojo has had us ranked exactly once, for one week, at No. 24. Unfortunately, we then played one of our two toughest games of the season and got knocked out of that spot.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
So when we get blown out in our one and only tournament game under Wojo, it's beyond irrelevant because other teams lose in the tournament and it's a crapshoot anyway. When we lose to Indiana and Kansas, no biggie, those were our two toughest games of the season. If we get beat by Kansas State next week, it'll be, "We lost to a top 15 team." Should we fall to Nova later this year, we can say, "We lost to the defending national champions." I think I've got it down. I'd always wondered how Antonio Banderas felt during that montage scene in The Thirteenth Warrior where he learns the Viking language, and now I know.
You made the very poor argument that because a team was blown out in the NCAA tournament, it means the team wasn't good. That was a dumb argument, and you were called out for it.
The game was 68-65 with under 10 minutes to play. It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play. There are blowouts, and then there are games in which in desperation mode you foul at the end, make games outcomes worse than they are. We were the underdog in that game per our seeding. Two days later they beat Duke. Then Baylor. Then Florida. They lost to #1 seed Gonzaga by 4 points. Again, you were called out for a dumb argument, as you should have been.
IMHO, We are witnessing the 'beginning of the end'. Not giving up on the season. I'm watching the season and it is not good. I really wanted Wojo to do well but this looks like high water mark and a lot like Tommy Amaker at Michigan.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 02:11:16 PM
You made the very poor argument that because a team was blown out in the NCAA tournament, it means the team wasn't good. That was a dumb argument, and you were called out for it.
The game was 68-65 with under 10 minutes to play. It was a two possession game with under 7 minutes to play. There are blowouts, and then there are games in which in desperation mode you foul at the end, make games outcomes worse than they are. We were the underdog in that game per our seeding. Two days later they beat Duke. Then Baylor. Then Florida. They lost to #1 seed Gonzaga by 4 points. Again, you were called out for a dumb argument, as you should have been.
We lost the one game we played in the tournament. At no point in the year were we in the top 25. We went 4-0 against Creighton and Xavier, who had both lost very key players due to injury. We weren't a very good team. Not terrible, just not especially good.
A lot of people also talk about how playing IU at home is hard place to win. When was the last time you could say the same about MU?
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 02:20:35 PM
We lost the one game we played in the tournament. At no point in the year were we in the top 25. We went 4-0 against Creighton and Xavier, who had both lost very key players due to injury. We weren't a very good team. Not terrible, just not especially good.
We were a fun team to watch that year. Had JJJ , Luke, Duane, Katin, Sam , Markus , Haanif etc very good team chemistry I thought.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 02:20:35 PM
We lost the one game we played in the tournament. At no point in the year were we in the top 25. We went 4-0 against Creighton and Xavier, who had both lost very key players due to injury. We weren't a very good team. Not terrible, just not especially good.
And yet the only evidence that you've presented to support your claim is that we lost in the tournament and that we could have lost other games if players weren't injured. Again, if you start playing playing the "if" game, the are potential scenarios that favor your argument as well as those that counter your argument.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 01:06:38 PM
Coach Williams left MU, he also has zero tourney wins in his new stint, but he's doing well. NCAA tournament wins don't always align with success or failure of the team that year.
Coach Williams is at a historically bad program. Achieving at a slightly higher level of success at V Tech (or Rutgers, say) than the guy at Marquette is roughly equivalent to the guy at Marquette doing slightly better than the guy at UNC, Kansas, Duke or Kentucky. I'd take that any day. Coming close to Virginia Tech? Not so much.
Quote from: Its DJOver on November 22, 2018, 02:27:04 PM
And yet the only evidence that you've presented to support your claim is that we lost in the tournament and that we could have lost other games if players weren't injured. Again, if you start playing playing the "if" game, the are potential scenarios that favor your argument as well as those that counter your argument.
I also stated we were never in the top 25 that year.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 02:32:20 PM
I also stated we were never in the top 25 that year.
Fair point. That is still not enough evidence to make a compelling argument IMO.
I don't think Wojo is a great coach. He's been decidedly average so far. He is a C level coach. Doesn't make the team better than the sum of its parts, doesn't make it worse. He can make up for this by assembling strong rosters. I think he has assembled a B+ A- type roster this season. If he plays to expectations, we will have an enjoyable season. Next season we should have an A/A- roster and really enjoy the season. If Wojo doesn't meet expectations those preaching patience will quickly grow impatient.
Oh and he gets an A in all other aspects of being a coach.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 02:20:35 PM
We lost the one game we played in the tournament. At no point in the year were we in the top 25. We went 4-0 against Creighton and Xavier, who had both lost very key players due to injury. We weren't a very good team. Not terrible, just not especially good.
The same Xavier team that went to the Elite 8? The same Creighton team that also made the NCAA tournament, finished 3rd in the Big East, made the Big East tournament final?
Despite their loss of key players, they somehow managed to do just fine that year.
Honest question, how much non MU college basketball do Scoopers watch? Because I hear things like "our offense has always sucked" and "we always have long periods where we don't score" and "we looked too sloppy against the cupcakes". It makes me feel like the answer is "none". I am pretty much in a constant state of watching college basketball and also every game I have watched this season has featured an extended scoring drought for at least one of the teams (Disclaimer, yes the one last night was extreme). Go back and watch some of the replays of our old teams under Buzz, if you want to see some painful offense. Most high majors have periods where they look sloppy against cupcakes.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 02:30:26 PM
Coach Williams is at a historically bad program. Achieving at a slightly higher level of success at V Tech (or Rutgers, say) than the guy at Marquette is roughly equivalent to the guy at Marquette doing slightly better than the guy at UNC, Kansas, Duke or Kentucky. I'd take that any day. Coming close to Virginia Tech? Not so much.
Va Tech was the better seed last season and lost. What happened the previous 100 years doesn't particularly matter. Last season they were in the tournament, had the higher seed and lost. The previous season they were the 9 seed and lost to Wisconsin by double digits.
Your history doesn't play games. You earn what you earn each year. What your history can do is help to recruit, help to validate a program, but in the moment of the game it means nothing. Your 5 guys against their 5 guys. This the year he gets a tournament win? Probably, especially if their freshman's ACT test results are cleared and they add his talent.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 02:32:20 PM
I also stated we were never in the top 25 that year.
We were according to the computer guys a few times. Voters are usually the last to know.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 03:02:38 PM
The same Xavier team that went to the Elite 8? The same Creighton team that also made the NCAA tournament, finished 3rd in the Big East, made the Big East tournament final?
Despite their loss of key players, they somehow managed to do just fine that year.
That Creighton team was 18-1 before Watson's injury, 7-9 after.
Xavier, after losing Sumner, went through a stretch where they lost 6 in a row, during which we played them twice. The first time we played them, they were also missing Blueitt. Eventually they figured out how to play without Sumner and made a nice run in the tournament (crapshoot), but we caught them at the best possible time.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 03:23:43 PM
That Creighton team was 18-1 before Watson's injury, 7-9 after.
Xavier, after losing Sumner, went through a stretch where they lost 6 in a row, during which we played them twice. The first time we played them, they were also missing Blueitt. Eventually they figured out how to play without Sumner and made a nice run in the tournament (crapshoot), but we caught them at the best possible time.
Okay. We were 0-4 against those 2 teams that year then.
And since we haven't had Greg this year, let's just call Indiana and Kansas wins!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 22, 2018, 02:53:34 PM
I don't think Wojo is a great coach. He's been decidedly average so far. He is a C level coach. Doesn't make the team better than the sum of its parts, doesn't make it worse. He can make up for this by assembling strong rosters. I think he has assembled a B+ A- type roster this season. If he plays to expectations, we will have an enjoyable season. Next season we should have an A/A- roster and really enjoy the season. If Wojo doesn't meet expectations those preaching patience will quickly grow impatient.
Oh and he gets an A in all other aspects of being a coach.
In general, I would agree with this. Based on what we've seen this year, I'm beginning to worry that if he isn't able to reign Markus in, that we could end up seeing a team that is worse than the sum of its parts. I don't think the second half of Kansas will be a common occurrence, but complaints of hero ball are nothing new. And too much hero ball can make other players worse.
Also, what other aspects of being a coach do you give him an A for? He gets a B+/A- for recruiting and a C for X's and O's based on your comments above? What's left? Is this a reference to running a clean program?
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 03:07:11 PM
Va Tech was the better seed last season and lost. What happened the previous 100 years doesn't particularly matter. Last season they were in the tournament, had the higher seed and lost. The previous season they were the 9 seed and lost to Wisconsin by double digits.
Your history doesn't play games. You earn what you earn each year. What your history can do is help to recruit, help to validate a program, but in the moment of the game it means nothing. Your 5 guys against their 5 guys. This the year he gets a tournament win? Probably, especially if their freshman's ACT test results are cleared and they add his talent.
History doesn't matter? Come on, everyone knows that's wrong. Tradition and historical success absolutely matter in college athletics. To say otherwise is just... crazy.
Posted by willie warrior
So what should be the minimum acceptable results for next year to put out the red carpet for Wojo. This would be a good scenario:
1. Compete for BEast regular season title--at least a top 3 finish.
2. A deep run in BEast tourney
3. A top 15 ranking
4. Regular season record of at least 23-7
5. NCAA tourney regional seed of 4 or better
6. No one and done in tourney
7. Improved home attendance.
The above should be easily attainable given the assets Wojo/MU has, and the support many on this board have advocated on Wojo, and their reasons why we should be so good.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 03:07:11 PM
Va Tech was the better seed last season and lost. What happened the previous 100 years doesn't particularly matter. Last season they were in the tournament, had the higher seed and lost. The previous season they were the 9 seed and lost to Wisconsin by double digits.
Your history doesn't play games. You earn what you earn each year. What your history can do is help to recruit, help to validate a program, but in the moment of the game it means nothing. Your 5 guys against their 5 guys. This the year he gets a tournament win? Probably, especially if their freshman's ACT test results are cleared and they add his talent.
You're right. History doesn't matter. If a guy coaches Rutgers to the same success as the guy coaching Kentucky, they are equal. History no matta.
Utter BS.
History matters no doubt. But I don't think it matters as much as you are implying. Kentucky is a great program because of huge fan support, monied donors backing the program, and SEC money. History is part of that, but also history CREATES that.
There are examples of historically poor programs using their resources to become national powers. Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida were all programs that shed their history and took that next step.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 03:23:43 PM
That Creighton team was 18-1 before Watson's injury, 7-9 after.
Xavier, after losing Sumner, went through a stretch where they lost 6 in a row, during which we played them twice. The first time we played them, they were also missing Blueitt. Eventually they figured out how to play without Sumner and made a nice run in the tournament (crapshoot), but we caught them at the best possible time.
This is spot on. Any fair, non slurper assessment acknowledges how incredibly lucky we were to catch Creighton and Xavier when we did. If we go 2-2 in those games (best scenario possible IMO) do we even make the tournament?
So now we are going to asterisk our good wins?
Don't overthink it. A win is a win. A loss is a loss.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 07:52:08 PM
This is spot on. Any fair, non slurper assessment acknowledges how incredibly lucky we were to catch Creighton and Xavier when we did. If we go 2-2 in those games (best scenario possible IMO) do we even make the tournament?
Teams deal with injuries and players missing games for any number of reasons. Who cares what our record would've been had those teams been playing with those players? They weren't.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 07:40:14 PM
History matters no doubt. But I don't think it matters as much as you are implying. Kentucky is a great program because of huge fan support, monied donors backing the program, and SEC money. History is part of that, but also history CREATES that.
There are examples of historically poor programs using their resources to become national powers. Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida were all programs that shed their history and took that next step.
Bo Ryan, Lute Olson and Billy Donovan are hall of famers.
And historically speaking I don't think any of those programs ranked as low as V Tech.
But I agree it's not impossible to win there - just a lot harder than it is to win at Marquette.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 07:57:54 PM
Bo Ryan, Lute Olson and Billy Donovan are hall of famers.
And historically speaking I don't think any of those programs ranked as low as V Tech.
But I agree it's not impossible to win there - just a lot harder than it is to win at Marquette.
Which is why Buzz has not, and likely will not, have the same success that he did at MU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 07:52:08 PM
This is spot on. Any fair, non slurper assessment acknowledges how incredibly lucky we were to catch Creighton and Xavier when we did. If we go 2-2 in those games (best scenario possible IMO) do we even make the tournament?
No we don't. But that's a bad argument. Providence "caught us at the best possible time" after our win vs. Villanova. We also had to play our game at providence on a damn ice rink. Our loss to Pitt came as we were working a bunch of new guys into the lineup. We played without one of our guys at Georgetown if I remember correctly.
There are good breaks and bad breaks over the course of the season. It happens every year
I mean, at some point having our best perimeter defender out gives a close loss an asterisk this year right?
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 22, 2018, 08:01:39 PM
No we don't. But that's a bad argument. Providence "caught us at the best possible time" after our win vs. Villanova. We also had to play our game at providence on a damn ice rink. Our loss to Pitt came as we were working a bunch of new guys into the lineup. We played without one of our guys at Georgetown if I remember correctly.
There are good breaks and bad breaks over the course of the season. It happens every year
LOL. There is a big difference between phony excuses and legit ones. We played 7-9 Creighton and 0-6 Xavier both twice. They were without their best players, not "a guy".
Dishonest assessments of where we are and where we've been as a program won't make this any better, but by all means keep drinking the kool aid.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 08:15:47 PM
LOL. There is a big difference between phony excuses and legit ones. We played 7-9 Creighton and 0-6 Xavier both twice. They were without their best players, not "a guy".
Dishonest assessments of where we are and where we've been as a program won't make this any better, but by all means keep drinking the kool aid.
Talk about LOL. 0-6 Xavier? Did Sumner recover from an ACL tear in 3 weeks? I guess he was with them as they went to the Elite Eight.
Sheesh. The chicken littles will go to great lengths.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 08:17:40 PM
Talk about LOL. 0-6 Xavier? Did Sumner recover from an ACL tear in 3 weeks? I guess he was with them as they went to the Elite Eight.
Sheesh. The chicken littles will go to great lengths.
They played one game against us without Blueitt and Sumner, one just without Sumner. Regrouped and overcame Sumner's absence in the tourney (after initially being in shock)
But keep slurpin'.
You know Lenny's has a losing argument when he gets all haughty. It's amusing.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 06:49:33 PM
Also, what other aspects of being a coach do you give him an A for? He gets a B+/A- for recruiting and a C for X's and O's based on your comments above? What's left? Is this a reference to running a clean program?
I think there's a general category for representing the university. Running a clean program, embracing the tradition/history, relating to students, etc. In my opinion, this third category isn't as important as the first two...though you need to reach a minimum threshold.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 08:29:08 PM
They played one game against us without Blueitt and Sumner, one just without Sumner. Regrouped and overcame Sumner's absence in the tourney (after initially being in shock)
But keep slurpin'.
Or maybe they just played 6 straight games against NCAA Tournament teams, half of them on the road. Then got a win over DePaul to end the regular season, got 2 wins in the BET, and then went to the E8.
But yeah, 0-6 Xavier.
And I'm a slurper because I won't discount 4 wins and say we haven't made an NCAA Tournament under Wojo. Good one.
Figurin' wee now kneed 6 years ta judge, hey?
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 08:30:35 PM
You know Lenny's has a losing argument when he gets all haughty. It's amusing.
LOL. Didn't realize I was being haughty. But I'll readily concede you're the expert here when it comes to haughty, so you should recognize it in others.
How does one manage to be "all haughty" with both winning and losing arguments like you do?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 22, 2018, 08:45:53 PM
Figurin' wee now kneed 6 years ta judge, hey?
Some don't get it Doc. Think "Win every other day" should be our motto.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 12:46:36 PM
...It's 5 games in, we lost two games that most expected us to lose. We are integrating two transfers into the team, as well as a freshman. We have a key player out due to a thumb injury. The 3-2 record is exactly how I expected....
Every time someone writes that 3-2 is where we expected to be, I think to myself, I agree. And I also think to myself, Marquette would also be 3-2 if literally no one was coaching the team.
At the beginning of last night's game, when they were showing graphics for the coaches, under Wojo's name they said, "Two time NCAA champion as Duke assistant." The guy's in his fifth season as our head coach, and that's what they put. For me, that says all you need to know about his time here.
And nobody's said Wojo never made the tournament, just that he had to catch a few breaks to get there. If people are going to hold 2016-17 up as his crowning achievement, let's call it what it was: A mediocre, forgettable season by MU standards. We went 19-13 and got bounced in the first round of the tournament. Heck, after beating No. 1 Villanova, the signature win of the Wojo era, we lost 4 out of our next 5, with our one win in that stretch coming against DePaul. A mediocre team does that, not a good one.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 07:40:14 PM
History matters no doubt. But I don't think it matters as much as you are implying. Kentucky is a great program because of huge fan support, monied donors backing the program, and SEC money. History is part of that, but also history CREATES that.
There are examples of historically poor programs using their resources to become national powers. Wisconsin, Arizona, Florida were all programs that shed their history and took that next step.
This is spot on and why college b-ball is great. If you spend the money, get a good coach, are in a decent conference — you too can be the next UConn.
It also makes it disappointing to shed momentum. The resources on the way in to create momentum are more than keeping it going.
Quote from: CleanishProgram on November 22, 2018, 08:56:21 PM
Every time someone writes that 3-2 is where we expected to be, I think to myself, I agree. And I also think to myself, Marquette would also be 3-2 if literally no one was coaching the team.
Incredible first post. Welcome to Scoop.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 08:59:07 PM
At the beginning of last night's game, when they were showing graphics for the coaches, under Wojo's name they said, "Two time NCAA champion as Duke assistant." The guy's in his fifth season as our head coach, and that's what they put. For me, that says all you need to know about his time here.
And nobody's said Wojo never made the tournament, just that he had to catch a few breaks to get there. If people are going to hold 2016-17 up as his crowning achievement, let's call it what it was: A mediocre, forgettable season by MU standards. We went 19-13 and got bounced in the first round of the tournament. Heck, after beating No. 1 Villanova, the signature win of the Wojo era, we lost 4 out of our next 5, with our one win in that stretch coming against DePaul. A mediocre team does that, not a good one.
+1000
There are plenty of players from the mike deane era that were better recruits than some guys on our roster
Amal was an awesome big
Chris crawford. Both had short nba careers
Lets not forget mike deane was actually the one that started recruitment for d wade
At this point ill take mike deane with a seat belt over wojo
#wojohasnomojo
Wojo is at the very least representing MU very well, and from what I can tell has kept the team acting as such. Same cannot be said from the Buzz era. MU isnt winning, but at least noone is getting in trouble.
Quote from: 46-47warriorcaptain on November 22, 2018, 09:05:48 PM
There are plenty of players from the mike deane era that were better recruits than some guys on our roster
Amal was an awesome big
Chris crawford. Both had short nba careers
Lets not forget mike deane was actually the one that started recruitment for d wade
At this point ill take mike deane with a seat belt over wojo
#wojohasnomojo
I believe McCaskill and Crawford were both O'Neill players.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 08:15:47 PM
LOL. There is a big difference between phony excuses and legit ones. We played 7-9 Creighton and 0-6 Xavier both twice. They were without their best players, not "a guy".
Dishonest assessments of where we are and where we've been as a program won't make this any better, but by all means keep drinking the kool aid.
I was actually wrong about the Georgetown game. Looks like we had everyone.
I'm with you on Creighton #1 and Xavier #1. We caught breaks. Doesn't mean that season should be diminished.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 09:10:52 PM
I believe McCaskill and Crawford were both O'Neill players.
You are correct. Aaron Hutchins was also an O'Neill recruit.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 08:53:03 PM
Some don't get it Doc. Think "Win every other day" should be our motto.
No he doesn't. Neither do you.
No one is saying that he needs next year to fully judge him. I think he's a pretty average coach. I think many people are saying its dumb to judge THIS SEASON based on the first five games. I've been very clear since last March what my expectations were for this season. (Top 4 BE, 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament.) I'm not going to write that off yet. (Ask me in a couple weeks and I may have a different answer.)
I'm also not going to make crap up like "Kansas just wasn't trying" or "we only beat the injured teams" to dishonestly reinforce my position.
If you want to say "Wojo hasn't recruited enough slashers" or "the defense has been a consistent problem," then yes. Those are obvious facts that clearly are marks against him. But the other stuff? Nonsense.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 09:10:52 PM
I believe McCaskill and Crawford were both O'Neill players.
Sorry my mistake. But they did get drafted under is tenure
On a side note would anybody love to still have cordell henry or hutch or miller on this roster right now as a real pg??????
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 09:17:54 PM
No he doesn't. Neither do you.
No one is saying that he needs next year to fully judge him. I think he's a pretty average coach. I think most people are saying its dumb to judge THIS SEASON based on the first five games. I've been very clear since last March what my expectations were for this season. (Top 4 BE, 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament.) I'm not going to write that off yet. (Ask me in a couple weeks and I may have a different answer.)
I'm also not going to make crap up like "Kansas just wasn't trying" or "we only beat the injured teams" to dishonestly reinforce my position.
If you want to say "Wojo hasn't recruited enough slashers" or "the defense has been a consistent problem," then yes. Those are obvious facts that clearly are marks against him. But the other stuff? Nonsense.
I also think Wojo is being judged "harshly" THIS SEASON so early into it, because of the lack of success of past seasons. Patience is wearing out.
You know what else is true? Greg F'in Gard is kicking Wojo's ass as a coach.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 09:22:54 PM
I also think Wojo is being judged "harshly" THIS SEASON so early into it, because of the lack of success of past seasons. Patience is wearing out.
I mean I get that, but there really is no reason for people to make sh*t up. The results will speak for themselves.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 09:22:54 PM
You know what else is true? Greg F'in Gard is kicking Wojo's ass as a coach.
I'm not sure he's "kicking Wojo's ass," but he certainly looks to have grown nicely into the job.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 09:17:07 PM
You are correct. Aaron Hutchins was also an O'Neill recruit.
O'Neill left us some good players. Pieper was also a key contributor on those first couple of Deane teams.
Kevin O'Neill...now there's a guy who came into a dumpster fire and did remarkable work. Same with Crean. Wojo had it tougher than both of them, though!
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 09:22:54 PM
I also think Wojo is being judged "harshly" THIS SEASON so early into it, because of the lack of success of past seasons. Patience is wearing out.
You know what else is true? Greg F'in Gard is kicking Wojo's ass as a coach.
Greg F'in Gard hasn't coached against anyone remotely close to as good as even Indiana this year, let alone Kansas.
Quote from: 46-47warriorcaptain on November 22, 2018, 09:21:55 PM
On a side note would anybody love to still have cordell henry or hutch or miller on this roster right now as a real pg??????
I'd like to have Dean Meminger, heck I'd like Chris Paul, but again like in the other thread, just not a logical discussion.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 09:29:02 PM
Greg F'in Gard hasn't coached against anyone remotely close to as good as even Indiana this year, let alone Kansas.
He will tomorrow against Virginia.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 09:28:11 PM
O'Neill left us some good players. Pieper was also a key contributor on those first couple of Deane teams.
Kevin O'Neill...now there's a guy who came into a dumpster fire and did remarkable work. Same with Crean. Wojo had it tougher than both of them, though!
Well obviously not.
But at this time in year five of O'Neill's tenure, he had a 0-1 tournament record under his belt and was 3-2 in year five with losses to Washington State and UWGB. Of course he ended that season in the S16, but not before getting blown out in Madison and in Tucson.
So let's just see how the next couple of weeks go.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 09:17:54 PM
I've been very clear since last March what my expectations were for this season. (Top 4 BE, 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament.) I'm not going to write that off yet.
We may finish top four in the Big East. The league looks to be down big time and we're very experienced and (for what it's worth) deep. Top 5 seed? I can't believe from what I've seen so far we're among the 20 best teams in college BB. Hope like hell I'm wrong, and if so I'll be first in line to tip my hat to Wojo.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 09:29:02 PM
Greg F'in Gard hasn't coached against anyone remotely close to as good as even Indiana this year, let alone Kansas.
Well in one less season at the helm, Gard has:
2016 NCAA tourney Wins over Jamie Dixon and Chris Mack
2017 NCAA tourney Wins over Buzz Williams and Jay Wright
WI began the season as 19 in Pomeroy and they've climbed to 11. Marquette began as 29 and is now at 35.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 09:47:26 PM
Well in one less season at the helm, Gard has:
2016 NCAA tourney Wins over Jamie Dixon and Chris Mack
2017 NCAA tourney Wins over Buzz Williams and Jay Wright
WI began the season as 19 in Pomeroy and they've climbed to 11. Marquette began as 29 and is now at 35.
Compare what Gard was left with to what Wojo was left with. That'll explain a lot to anyone who doesn't compare John Dawson to Magic Johnson.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 09:17:54 PM
I'm also not going to make crap up like "Kansas just wasn't trying" or "we only beat the injured teams" to dishonestly reinforce my position.
If you want to say "Wojo hasn't recruited enough slashers" or "the defense has been a consistent problem," then yes. Those are obvious facts that clearly are marks against him. But the other stuff? Nonsense.
I never said "Kansas wasn't trying" or "We only beat the injured teams", but just as it's obvious that Wojo hasn't recruited enough athletes/slashers and that defense has been a constant problem isn't it also obvious that the team that was 15-13 against the rest of its schedule benefitted greatly from playing X and Creighton 4x without their best players? And that the odds of going 4-0 against them if those guys had played would have been astronomical?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 22, 2018, 09:52:16 PM
I never said "Kansas wasn't trying" or "We only beat the injured teams", but just as it's obvious that Wojo hasn't recruited enough athletes/slashers and that defense has been a constant problem isn't it also obvious that the team that was 15-13 against the rest of its schedule benefitted greatly from playing X and Creighton 4x without their best players? And that the odds of going 4-0 against them if those guys had played would have been astronomical?
It doesn't matter.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 09:50:39 PM
Compare what Gard was left with to what Wojo was left with. That'll explain a lot to anyone who doesn't compare John Dawson to Magic Johnson.
I'm fully aware of what Wojo was left with, and know that if he could "coach," he would have done a lot more with what he inherited. Took all of 3 games for me to figure out he didn't have "it."
And let's get it straight: I said "Dawson made some passes that were Magic Johnson-esque."
We can squash this though, does Wojo make the Sweet 16 this year?
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 10:10:04 PM
I'm fully aware of what Wojo was left with, and know that if he could "coach," he would have done a lot more with what he inherited. Took all of 3 games for me to figure out he didn't have "it."
And let's get it straight: I said "Dawson made some passes that were Magic Johnson-esque."
We can squash this though, does Wojo make the Sweet 16 this year?
Just like your poll, this is an awful question.
Virginia had a terrible season last year because they lost in the first round to a 16 seed.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 01:15:05 AM
and that it's nice to not have to worry about the MU name popping up in any FBI investigations.
Did i miss something?
Quote from: jesmu84 on November 22, 2018, 10:18:48 PM
Just like your poll, this is an awful question.
Virginia had a terrible season last year because they lost in the first round to a 16 seed.
Well the poll was a very simple and straightforward question: Do we make the NCAA or not? (Not even if we win a game.) Not sure what is so offensive about that poll question?
As for Sweet 16 relevance: Wades seems to think Gard's success at Madison is only the result of what he inherited...and not any proof he can coach, and that Wojo was the victim of what he inherited. Wojo is now in Year 5. Wojo is now well past inherited players. This is the second year of all his guys. Year 1 we missed the NIT. We are now in Year 2.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 10:10:04 PM
I'm fully aware of what Wojo was left with, and know that if he could "coach," he would have done a lot more with what he inherited. Took all of 3 games for me to figure out he didn't have "it."
And let's get it straight: I said "Dawson made some passes that were Magic Johnson-esque."
We can squash this though, does Wojo make the Sweet 16 this year?
I still do not understand why Wojo thought it made sense to throw Deonte and John under the bus. Deonte is in the NBA now and John is in the g league so it's not as if they couldn't play at the Big East Level. We could have had a winning team that first year and would have been very well positioned to make some noise the second year. My only explanation is that he was inexperienced as a head coach and made a mistake .
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 10:25:51 PM
Well the poll was a very simple and straightforward question: Do we make the NCAA or not? (Not even if we win a game.) Not sure what is so offensive about that poll question?
As for Sweet 16 relevance: Wades seems to think Gard's success at Madison is only the result of what he inherited...and not any proof he can coach, and that Wojo was the victim of what he inherited. Wojo is now in Year 5. Wojo is now well past inherited players. This is the second year of all his guys. Year 1 we missed the NIT. We are now in Year 2.
This is why nobody can take you seriously.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56952.0
If your poll was a simple straightforward question of whether we make the NCAA Tournament or not and not even asking if we win a game, why is the title of the thread, the question in the poll, and your post in the thread all whether we win an NCAA Tournament game?
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 22, 2018, 10:29:52 PM
I still do not understand why Wojo thought it made sense to throw Deonte and John under the bus. Deonte is in the NBA now and John is in the g league so it's not as if they couldn't play at the Big East Level. We could have had a winning team that first year and would have been very well positioned to make some noise the second year. My only explanation is that he was inexperienced as a head coach and made a mistake .
Lol.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 22, 2018, 10:25:51 PM
Well the poll was a very simple and straightforward question: Do we make the NCAA or not? (Not even if we win a game.) Not sure what is so offensive about that poll question?
As for Sweet 16 relevance: Wades seems to think Gard's success at Madison is only the result of what he inherited...and not any proof he can coach, and that Wojo was the victim of what he inherited. Wojo is now in Year 5. Wojo is now well past inherited players. This is the second year of all his guys. Year 1 we missed the NIT. We are now in Year 2.
Your poll asked if we would win a game. Not if we would make the tournament. HUGE difference. Do you understand that?
If you seriously wanted to evaluate this season, you would want the most data points providing the conclusion. So you'd make your questions centered around total wins, big east finish or NCAA appearance (outside of a BET championship).
I just want to say that this thread is an all-timer. I no longer have any idea what's going on in it, and I'm partly to blame for that. There's like six different discussions happening. We've got OP's original question about why people are optimistic about Wojo. I took it off the rails a little when I brought up the X and Creighton injuries, we also have some discourse about relevance of program histories, Gard vs Wojo, an argument about some poll Ners made, and now John Dawson has been brought into the mix.
Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Let's make Chris Mack pay for leaving the Big East tomorrow.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 08:04:52 PM
I mean, at some point having our best perimeter defender out gives a close loss an asterisk this year right?
Greg would not have made enough difference in either of our losses to date. No way.
Like I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of the Greg commentary right now is similar to the Harry commentary from last year. Holding out hope that a key piece of the puzzle is just out of commission for a while, and when he's back we'll become much better. It's an easy fall back plan to help explain why we're just not quite where we want to be.
Greg had some good moments last year, especially for a freshman, but he wasn't and likely still isn't at the same level as Sacar in terms of defense. And from what we've seen this year, I think I might slot Joe ahead of Greg on defense too. I also think that Greg may have looked better last year at times because he provided a nice spark off the bench replacing awful defenders.
Quote from: CleanishProgram on November 22, 2018, 08:56:21 PM
Every time someone writes that 3-2 is where we expected to be, I think to myself, I agree. And I also think to myself, Marquette would also be 3-2 if literally no one was coaching the team.
Playing the same illogical game you play, insert 99% of coaches instead of Wojo and our record would be, 3-2.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 03:23:43 PM
That Creighton team was 18-1 before Watson's injury, 7-9 after.
Xavier, after losing Sumner, went through a stretch where they lost 6 in a row, during which we played them twice. The first time we played them, they were also missing Blueitt. Eventually they figured out how to play without Sumner and made a nice run in the tournament (crapshoot), but we caught them at the best possible time.
Did you also look at who they lost to? The 18-1 was against a mix of good and weak teams. Truman State, Longwood, Akron, Buffalo, Loyola (MD), Oral Roberts, Wazzu, UMKC, The 7-9 they went after the Watson injury, how many would they have lost whether Watson was playing? Those losses included at Marquette, at Villanova, at Georgetown, Villanova again, at Seton Hall. Most of those if not all of those they are losing anyway.
Xavier's 6 game losing streak. At Marquette, #2 Villanova, at Providence, at Seton Hall, #22 Butler, Marquette. They were going to lose at least 4 if not 5 of those regardless.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 10:51:23 PM
Greg would not have made enough difference in either of our losses to date. No way.
Like I mentioned earlier, I think a lot of the Greg commentary right now is similar to the Harry commentary from last year. Holding out hope that a key piece of the puzzle is just out of commission for a while, and when he's back we'll become much better. It's an easy fall back plan to help explain why we're just not quite where we want to be.
Greg had some good moments last year, especially for a freshman, but he wasn't and likely still isn't at the same level as Sacar in terms of defense. And from what we've seen this year, I think I might slot Joe ahead of Greg on defense too. I also think that Greg may have looked better last year at times because he provided a nice spark off the bench replacing awful defenders.
1st statement, probably right though impossible to know. 2nd statement, I personally remember there being a lot more hope for Harry being a difference maker than there is for Greg this season, maybe I'm wrong though. 3rd statement, Greg was our best defender last season and I think he would be our best defender this season. He led the team in points per possession allowed and it was by a very wide margin.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 22, 2018, 11:18:46 PM
Playing the same illogical game you play, insert 99% of coaches instead of Wojo and our record would be, 3-2.
I can't agree with 99%, but you do help make my point. In Wojo defense comments, you and others have tried to bring down the fire wojo fervor by pointing out that we are performing at expectations from a record standpoint. Sure...but I believe the product on the court has been absolutely disappointing and the way we have lost is meaningful in terms of the ongoing dialogue.
Its hard to see this year's team beating any other non-conference, non-cupcake teams now that Kansas has drawn up the blueprint.
Quote from: CleanishProgram on November 23, 2018, 06:24:49 AM
I can't agree with 99%, but you do help make my point. In Wojo defense comments, you and others have tried to bring down the fire wojo fervor by pointing out that we are performing at expectations from a record standpoint. Sure...but I believe the product on the court has been absolutely disappointing and the way we have lost is meaningful in terms of the ongoing dialogue.
Its hard to see this year's team beating any other non-conference, non-cupcake teams now that Kansas has drawn up the blueprint.
You're making the assumption that teams don't improve, coaches don't introduce new concepts and opponents execute game plans perfectly. There are plenty of examples of poor Marquette performances followed by good ones against quality teams.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 22, 2018, 01:15:05 AM
In a sincere attempt to understand "the other side of the aisle" - I'm really curious, 4 years and 5 games into the Wojo era, do the Wojo faithful still feel the same optimism from Years 2 or 3 or 4 that Wojo will bring Marquette back to national relevance?
I think most would agree that he's an above average recruiter and that it's nice to not have to worry about the MU name popping up in any FBI investigations. But has his performance to date - accounting for all 130 games - still made you think he's the guy?
To me, the guy seems inflexible as a coach. One-dimensional offenses, limited in-game adjustments, bad (but improving) defenses, not competing for 40 full minutes, sub-par roster management... All the same things he has been critiqued for since Year 1 seem to still be there, with defense maybe being an exception with this year's team.
Didn't anyone watch the IU game. How, where and what has given people the idea that our defense has improved or is improving?
Quote from: Charlotte Warrior on November 23, 2018, 07:03:36 AM
Didn't anyone watch the IU game. How, where and what has given people the idea that our defense has improved or is improving?
Statistically it has.
Quote from: Research Report on November 22, 2018, 09:10:52 PM
I believe McCaskill and Crawford were both O'Neill players.
definitely ONeill guys
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2018, 09:17:54 PM
No he doesn't. Neither do you.
No one is saying that he needs next year to fully judge him. I think he's a pretty average coach. I think many people are saying its dumb to judge THIS SEASON based on the first five games. I've been very clear since last March what my expectations were for this season. (Top 4 BE, 5 seed or better in the NCAA tournament.) I'm not going to write that off yet. (Ask me in a couple weeks and I may have a different answer.)
I'm also not going to make crap up like "Kansas just wasn't trying" or "we only beat the injured teams" to dishonestly reinforce my position.
If you want to say "Wojo hasn't recruited enough slashers" or "the defense has been a consistent problem," then yes. Those are obvious facts that clearly are marks against him. But the other stuff? Nonsense.
Sew eye'll ax ewe dis, if UL hands Wojo his ass tonite, duz yo mood change, hey?
Rock chalk, Warhawk
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 23, 2018, 07:50:41 AM
Sew eye'll ax ewe dis, if UL hands Wojo his ass tonite, duz yo mood change, hey?
Rock chalk, Warhawk
Yes. I said as such earlier. Most of this will be answered within a couple of weeks.
I'd asked earlier but no one answered. I am genuinely curious, how much non-MU college basketball do scoopers watch? And I mean in the past couple of years, not I used to watch a lot in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 00s.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 22, 2018, 10:30:25 PM
This is why nobody can take you seriously.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=56952.0
If your poll was a simple straightforward question of whether we make the NCAA Tournament or not and not even asking if we win a game, why is the title of the thread, the question in the poll, and your post in the thread all whether we win an NCAA Tournament game?
Ha. That's funny. I'd forgotten how I phrased the poll question. My bad. That said, not sure what the issue is with the poll question as it was stated. A simple black and white question to assess the level of the confidence in our fanbase.
So, not surprised you failed to answer my question: Does MU make the Sweet 16 this year? Let's squash this once and for all. You've told us to #respecttheprocess. Gard has two Sweet 16's and his team at 11 this year. Wojo?
MU does not make the S16 this year and UW might.
Gard had the benefit of a continuity that Wojo did not however. The question is can Gard maintain it, which should be answered after Happ leaves this year. Looks like it might be the case.
If by continuity you mean running Bo's system, I'll agree. Besides, my opinion is Gard's coaching ability is superior to Wojo's. Steve has that "deer in headlights" look and I think it says a lot.
Wojo is making the same mistake with Marcus that he made with Ellenson, which is catering to the star recruit's NBA dreams to the detriment of the overall team. Marcus is a high character young man who can be a fantastic collegiate scorer, but has very little chance at a successful NBA career. Unfortunately I don't see this dream ending anytime soon, and MU will continue to underachieve as a result.
MH's gonna make bread playin' hoops, butt likely in some spots like Istanbul or Budapest, hey?
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2018, 09:09:26 AM
MU does not make the S16 this year and UW might.
You have MU as a top 5 seed. 1,2,3,4 and 5 seeds all have a pretty good shot at the S16, no?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 08:32:07 AM
I'd asked earlier but no one answered. I am genuinely curious, how much non-MU college basketball do scoopers watch? And I mean in the past couple of years, not I used to watch a lot in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 00s.
A lot.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 23, 2018, 07:50:41 AM
Sew eye'll ax ewe dis, if UL hands Wojo his ass tonite, duz yo mood change, hey?
Rock chalk, Warhawk
A neutral court loss to UL would not be well received. This is a game most if not all MU fans penciled in as a win.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 08:32:07 AM
I'd asked earlier but no one answered. I am genuinely curious, how much non-MU college basketball do scoopers watch? And I mean in the past couple of years, not I used to watch a lot in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 00s.
Very little outside of the tournament. I find the product hard to watch.
Quote from: MUfan12 on November 23, 2018, 10:23:31 AM
Very little outside of the tournament. I find the product hard to watch.
That's a common occurrence. Important to remember that when judging our team
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 08:32:07 AM
I'd asked earlier but no one answered. I am genuinely curious, how much non-MU college basketball do scoopers watch? And I mean in the past couple of years, not I used to watch a lot in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 00s.
#NersTest
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 10:33:55 AM
That's a common occurrence. Important to remember that when judging our team
Is it, though? Even though I don't watch many of the games, I keep tabs on just about everything in the major conferences.
And when it comes to MU, the breakdowns are so fundamental and repetitive, watching Penn State-Rutgers doesn't change my view of our issues.
Quote from: MUfan12 on November 23, 2018, 10:46:18 AM
Is it, though? Even though I don't watch many of the games, I keep tabs on just about everything in the major conferences.
And when it comes to MU, the breakdowns are so fundamental and repetitive, watching Penn State-Rutgers doesn't change my view of our issues.
You misunderstand me. It's important to keep in mind that the product is hard to watch. This wasnt me bragging that I watch more college basketball that would be dumb.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 10:33:55 AM
That's a common occurrence. Important to remember that when judging our team
In November thru March, if I'm going to watch sports on tv, CBB is my sport of choice. During Big East conference play, I watch at least parts of a few games a week, and all Marquette games. As an adult with a job and a social life and other hobbies, I think that's pretty good.
What's your point in asking that question? That people who don't watch a lot of CBB aren't fit to judge the product Marquette's throwing out there? Even if I went a season or two without watching a ton of NCAA hoops, I've been watching ball since I was old enough to know what was going on in a sports game. I know what a good basketball team and ball game look like.
Quote from: Research Report on November 23, 2018, 11:03:49 AM
In November thru March, if I'm going to watch sports on tv, CBB is my sport of choice. During Big East conference play, I watch at least parts of a few games a week, and all Marquette games. As an adult with a job and a social life and other hobbies, I think that's pretty good.
What's your point in asking that question? That people who don't watch a lot of CBB aren't fit to judge the product Marquette's throwing out there? Even if I went a season or two without watching a ton of NCAA hoops, I've been watching ball since I was old enough to know what was going on in a sports game. I know what a good basketball team and ball game look like.
Read the post above this one.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 11:06:39 AM
Read the post above this one.
Overall, I don't find the product hard to watch, so I disagree with you. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I prefer college to the NBA.
Quote from: Research Report on November 23, 2018, 11:11:34 AM
Overall, I don't find the product hard to watch, so I disagree with you. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I prefer college to the NBA.
I prefer it too. The amateurism is a part of the reason why. It's important to compare them to other college basketball teams.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2018, 09:42:45 AM
You have MU as a top 5 seed. 1,2,3,4 and 5 seeds all have a pretty good shot at the S16, no?
Yes. But they won't.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 23, 2018, 09:14:55 AM
If by continuity you mean running Bo's system, I'll agree. Besides, my opinion is Gard's coaching ability is superior to Wojo's. Steve has that "deer in headlights" look and I think it says a lot.
Not just running Bo's system. But players and coaches both knowing what to expect.
Quote from: Room510 on November 23, 2018, 09:35:51 AM
Wojo is making the same mistake with Marcus that he made with Ellenson, which is catering to the star recruit's NBA dreams to the detriment of the overall team. Marcus is a high character young man who can be a fantastic collegiate scorer, but has very little chance at a successful NBA career. Unfortunately I don't see this dream ending anytime soon, and MU will continue to underachieve as a result.
I agree with this analysis.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 23, 2018, 09:14:55 AM
If by continuity you mean running Bo's system, I'll agree. Besides, my opinion is Gard's coaching ability is superior to Wojo's. Steve has that "deer in headlights" look and I think it says a lot.
Yet Gard and Wojo head to head....
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 12:36:16 AM
1st statement, probably right though impossible to know. 2nd statement, I personally remember there being a lot more hope for Harry being a difference maker than there is for Greg this season, maybe I'm wrong though. 3rd statement, Greg was our best defender last season and I think he would be our best defender this season. He led the team in points per possession allowed and it was by a very wide margin.
I'm a bit cautious to take that as proof that he's our best defender. Partly because he played more limited minutes and didn't have the same assignments as Sacar, Markus or Rowsey. And partly because playing fewer minutes gave him an advantage from an energy perspective.
This is not a knock on Greg; he played the role he was asked to play extremely well. But I think stats can at times not paint the full picture. Case in point - Matt Heldt was one of the most efficient players in the country last year - are you putting the ball in his hands at the end of a game when you're down?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 08:32:07 AM
I'd asked earlier but no one answered. I am genuinely curious, how much non-MU college basketball do scoopers watch? And I mean in the past couple of years, not I used to watch a lot in the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 00s.
I watch a ton. I'd say I average at least a game per day during the season. Most weekends it's closer to 4 or 5 (the benefits of having multiple TVs).
The most noticeable thing for me in the last few years is that we lack a lot of the pure athleticism of many other high majors. There are a ton of guys that are incredible athletes but only OK basketball players. MU, on the other hand, has a lot of very good basketball players who aren't all that athletic (comparatively).
And in general, the athleticism from other guys seems to translate better into defense than offense. They're quicker and can jump higher, so they can guard and rebound better. For us, our guys are great shooters, which translates into better 3FG%.
Villanova has a big lead but is currently 3 happy.
Ended up shooting over 40 3's, many of the one pass and shoot type.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 23, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
I prefer it too. The amateurism is a part of the reason why. It's important to compare them to other college basketball teams.
When I look at Marquette, I certainly don't compare them to NBA teams. I'm even cautious about comparing them to programs like Duke, who get players Marquette could never hope to. Frankly, there was no comparison between Marquette and Kansas (another blue blood) on Wednesday. If those teams played ten times, MU
might win once.
Compared to good college basketball teams who aren't blue bloods, like Indiana (haven't been at that level since Knight), Marquette looks fair to middling at best, bad at worst. MU's big men aren't good and they don't really have any guys who can take it to the basket. We have three high level basketball players in the Hausers and Howard, and they aren't particularly athletic.
The record isn't the issue. We weren't expected to win either game, but the fact that we didn't look like we belonged in the same building, let alone the same court in either game is what's so disappointing. What's even more disappointing is that the MU fan base and scoop accepts the fact that we're not supposed to win either game but that if only we were really competitive and were in both games the season could be salvaged. Since when is that ok? Why can't the alums vote with their wallets, not go to games, not buy season tickets and make a statement that nothing short of a return to the blue blood status we enjoyed in the 70's is acceptable? The only reason Porky is attending this evening is because a business associate provided him with complementary tickets. Porky Would not spend any $$ or go out of his way to watch mediocrity. That doesn't mean Porky is a fair weather fan at all. Still go out of the way to watch on TV and support the team but the administration is making it extremely difficult. At the Circles event in NYC last month, Scholl made a point to single out Markus as the sole player representative to the NCAA Men's Basketball Div. 1 Oversight committee. While that's great that Markus represents our program in a positive light, is a great student with tremendous leadership abilities and could be a future POTUS, blah blah blah, what about on the court? Why shouldn't the Kansas and IU games be toss ups, on the road or on a neutral court and why can't we be favored at home? In short, that's what Porky wants. Do you?
Quote from: PorkysButthole on November 23, 2018, 01:06:08 PM
The record isn't the issue. We weren't expected to win either game, but the fact that we didn't look like we belonged in the same building, let alone the same court in either game is what's so disappointing. What's even more disappointing is that the MU fan base and scoop accepts the fact that we're not supposed to win either game but that if only we were really competitive and were in both games the season could be salvaged. Since when is that ok? Why can't the alums vote with their wallets, not go to games, not buy season tickets and make a statement that nothing short of a return to the blue blood status we enjoyed in the 70's is acceptable? The only reason Porky is attending this evening is because a business associate provided him with complementary tickets. Porky Would not spend any $$ or go out of his way to watch mediocrity. That doesn't mean Porky is a fair weather fan at all. Still go out of the way to watch on TV and support the team but the administration is making it extremely difficult. At the Circles event in NYC last month, Scholl made a point to single out Markus as the sole player representative to the NCAA Men's Basketball Div. 1 Oversight committee. While that's great that Markus represents our program in a positive light, is a great student with tremendous leadership abilities and could be a future POTUS, blah blah blah, what about on the court? Why shouldn't the Kansas and IU games be toss ups, on the road or on a neutral court and why can't we be favored at home? In short, that's what Porky wants. Do you?
We didn't belong in the same building despite having a lead at halftime? OK then.
Quote from: Newsdreams on November 23, 2018, 11:42:46 AM
Yet Gard and Wojo head to head....
1-1?
Let's see how Wojo coaches when he loses two starting players. (We've yet to see Wojo even have to coach through losing a playe for more than 1 game due to injury.) MU health has been truly blessed in his tenure.
1-1 yes, with Wisconsin being the substantial favorite each year.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 23, 2018, 01:08:45 PM
We didn't belong in the same building despite having a lead at halftime? OK then.
Is that what you tell your daughter when you give her a participation trophy... "Its ok hunny, your team won the first half."
By the first media timeout in the second half we knew the game was over. We didn't compete, we didn't adjust, and we didn't score a freakin point for 9 full mintues. It looked like a KU but game to me, and that's not acceptable.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 23, 2018, 02:11:56 PM
1-1?
Let's see how Wojo coaches when he loses two starting players. (We've yet to see Wojo even have to coach through losing a playe for more than 1 game due to injury.) MU health has been truly blessed in his tenure.
Matt Carlino says hi as does Greg Elliot and I'm pretty sure Duane Wilson missed a couple games as well.
edit: Katin Reinhardt also missed 3 games
Lol, had a double digit lead and it looked like we didn't belong.
This is why I can't take some seriously. It's okay to criticize but to completely dismiss half the game is ridiculous. Overall Kansas is the better team, no question.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 23, 2018, 02:16:43 PM
Is that what you tell your daughter when you give her a participation trophy... "Its ok hunny, your team won the first half."
By the first media timeout in the second half we knew the game was over. We didn't compete, we didn't adjust, and we didn't score a freakin point for 9 full mintues. It looked like a KU but game to me, and that's not acceptable.
No, nor did I with my other kids, one of which was a DI athlete. However, I also didn't make dumb statements that said their teams didn't belong in the same building when they clearly did, win or lose, if they indeed belonged in the same building. MU did.
Did UCLA losing to Michigan State last night mean they didn't belong to be a DI program, and should cash in the season? I refuse to live my life in misery of my teams. If we're bad, I'll say it. If we lose to a much better program, that's different. I'm reserving judgment later in the season, not through 5 games.
Quote from: PorkysButthole on November 23, 2018, 01:06:08 PM
What's even more disappointing is that the MU fan base and scoop accepts the fact that we're not supposed to win either game but that if only we were really competitive and were in both games the season could be salvaged.
Don't let the voices of the few drown out the many. There are a few people on scoop who are very pro Wojo and another few who are just very patient. And they post a lot. If you were to count individual posts, the views may seems evenly split on Wojo. But if you count the individuals, I think you'll see more who are frustrated with the current state of the program. If you go outside scoop to the other 95% of the fanbase, you'll definitely find more frustration than patience.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 23, 2018, 04:25:24 PM
Don't let the voices of the few drown out the many. There are a few people on scoop who are very pro Wojo and another few who are just very patient. And they post a lot. If you were to count individual posts, the views may seems evenly split on Wojo. But if you count the individuals, I think you'll see more who are frustrated with the current state of the program. If you go outside scoop to the other 95% of the fanbase, you'll definitely find more frustration than patience.
I don't think you could have it anymore wrong. And if you could the seat would be at least a little, slight bit warm.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 23, 2018, 04:25:24 PM
Don't let the voices of the few drown out the many. There are a few people on scoop who are very pro Wojo and another few who are just very patient. And they post a lot. If you were to count individual posts, the views may seems evenly split on Wojo. But if you count the individuals, I think you'll see more who are frustrated with the current state of the program. If you go outside scoop to the other 95% of the fanbase, you'll definitely find more frustration than patience.
Oh Lord. This is some high quality research right here.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 23, 2018, 04:30:46 PM
I don't think you could have it anymore wrong. And if you could the seat would be at least a little, slight bit warm.
High quantity Wojo guy, right on cue.
Yes, the calm ones are the problem. Sounds like the rest of the internet.
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 04:40:26 PM
Yes, the calm ones are the problem. Sounds like the rest of the internet.
Was literally thinking this. It seems like the guys who hate wojo can only accept it if others hate wojo. There's no ground for patience, or frustration but still hopeful it's he has to go now or you're pro wojo.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 23, 2018, 04:30:46 PM
I don't think you could have it anymore wrong. And if you could the seat would be at least a little, slight bit warm.
I don't think you 'reading the tea leafs' correctly. I don't think Wojo is going to be fired at the end of the year but I also know why MU has not offered an extension. Wojo is coaching for his job and MU is being very patient and giving him every opportunity to keep it. I for one hope he earns an extension but he hasn't yet and that is supported by MU's wait and see approach.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 23, 2018, 04:42:12 PM
Was literally thinking this. It seems like the guys who hate wojo can only accept it if others hate wojo. There's no ground for patience, or frustration but still hopeful it's he has to go now or you're pro wojo.
After 4 years of pretty mediocre results (10 games under .500 in the conference) despite one of the biggest basketball budgets in the country, I'd say most folks have been pretty patient.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 04:57:48 PM
After 4 years of pretty mediocre results (10 games under .500 in the conference) despite one of the biggest basketball budgets in the country, I'd say most folks have been pretty patient.
I can't remember if you were around for wojos first and second years. There was a still a lot of the same posters complaining saying the same stuff.
And anyone who continues to bring up "biggest budget" gets automatically discounted in my book.
Quote from: Galway Eagle on November 23, 2018, 05:01:00 PM
I can't remember if you were around for wojos first and second years. There was a still a lot of the same posters complaining saying the same stuff.
That's why I posted "most folks"
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2018, 05:05:40 PM
And anyone who continues to bring up "biggest budget" gets automatically discounted in my book.
And all these years I thought the Yankees had an unfair advantage when it came to competing with the Reds.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
And all these years I thought the Yankees had an unfair advantage when it came to competing with the Reds.
No. Please pay attention to what makes up the "basketball budget" at Marquette and how it differs from other schools.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
No. Please pay attention to what makes up the "basketball budget" at Marquette and how it differs from other schools.
Educate me. I'm open minded.
Lots of threads devolve into the topic of why wojo is good/bad at his job. So I made this thread very specifically to ask the people who think he's the right guy for the job why they think that. So far, only one or two posts addressed that. To me, that says something about where the fanbase stands. Could be confirmation bias, I'll admit that, but I expected this thread to go differently.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 05:15:24 PM
Educate me. I'm open minded.
I have explained it before. Marquette includes the rent paid for the FF in the basketball budget. I am not sure, but I do believe that they allocate some costs related to academic support and athletic training toward basketball as well. Other schools may not do that. In other words, it's not a completely accurate survey because of these differences in reporting.
The bottom line is that Marquette doesn't have the overall resources available that the P5 football schools do, but they do devote a great deal to its basketball program.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 23, 2018, 04:25:24 PM
Don't let the voices of the few drown out the many. There are a few people on scoop who are very pro Wojo and another few who are just very patient. And they post a lot. If you were to count individual posts, the views may seems evenly split on Wojo. But if you count the individuals, I think you'll see more who are frustrated with the current state of the program. If you go outside scoop to the other 95% of the fanbase, you'll definitely find more frustration than patience.
Based on what research? Your buddies you talk to after the game?
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 04:57:48 PM
After 4 years of pretty mediocre results (10 games under .500 in the conference) despite one of the biggest basketball budgets in the country, I'd say most folks have been pretty patient.
.500 the last three years, two of those years the Conference had a team winning the national championship, plus others that went to Final Four and Elite 8. Conference no worse than 3rd in those three years. But use the first year under Wojo in which he was 4-14 (that's your 10 games under) to keep your agenda going.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 23, 2018, 05:26:39 PM
.500 the last three years, two of those years the Conference had a team winning the national championship, plus others that went to Final Four and Elite 8. Conference no worse than 3rd in those three years. But use the first year under Wojo in which he was 4-14 (that's your 10 games under) to keep your agenda going.
Who went to the FF? By my count the Big East's runs have been Nova win the championship twice, Xavier with an elite 8 and sweet 16, Butler with a Sweet 16.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 23, 2018, 05:24:20 PM
Based on what research? Your buddies you talk to after the game?
Yup. Same "research" as everyone else.
Do you have a better way to gauge the fanbase?
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 23, 2018, 05:26:39 PM
.500 the last three years, two of those years the Conference had a team winning the national championship, plus others that went to Final Four and Elite 8. Conference no worse than 3rd in those three years. But use the first year under Wojo in which he was 4-14 (that's your 10 games under) to keep your agenda going.
My agenda??? Explain to me my agenda. Wojo seems like a nice guy who is a good ambassador for the program. Are you satisfied with the results the last few years? I'm not satisfied with two wins in the NIT . Maybe Buzz spoiled me. That's my position, I don't think I have an agenda.
Hope you're getting help with your emotional problems Chico.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2018, 05:23:40 PM
I have explained it before. Marquette includes the rent paid for the FF in the basketball budget. I am not sure, but I do believe that they allocate some costs related to academic support and athletic training toward basketball as well. Other schools may not do that. In other words, it's not a completely accurate survey because of these differences in reporting.
The bottom line is that Marquette doesn't have the overall resources available that the P5 football schools do, but they do devote a great deal to its basketball program.
Fair enough. I learned something.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 05:36:42 PM
My agenda??? Explain to me my agenda. Wojo seems like a nice guy who is a good ambassador for the program. Are you satisfied with the results the last few years? I'm not satisfied with two wins in the NIT . Maybe Buzz spoiled me. That's my position, I don't think I have an agenda.
I'll drink to that.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 05:36:42 PM
My agenda??? Explain to me my agenda. Wojo seems like a nice guy who is a good ambassador for the program. Are you satisfied with the results the last few years? I'm not satisfied with two wins in the NIT . Maybe Buzz spoiled me. That's my position, I don't think I have an agenda.
Hope you're getting help with your emotional problems Chico.
Chico,
If you don't have an agenda, why did you make a claim of 10 games under .500, but everyone knows that was year one in a rebuild. You went overboard talking about 10 games under, but apparently couldn't recognize .500 in the last three? Feels like an agenda, chico.
Quote from: WarriorDad on November 23, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
Chico,
If you don't have an agenda, why did you make a claim of 10 games under .500, but everyone knows that was year one in a rebuild. You went overboard talking about 10 games under, but apparently couldn't recognize .500 in the last three? Feels like an agenda, chico.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O8kRTVkjEI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O8kRTVkjEI)
Honestly.. I hesitate to ask but I will anyway.
Who is Chicos posting under and the same question for Ners?
Thanks...
Quote from: manny31 on November 23, 2018, 09:03:08 PM
Honestly.. I hesitate to ask but I will anyway.
Who is Chicos posting under and the same question for Ners?
Thanks...
Ners is floorslapper.
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
Ners is floorslapper.
Ok, got it. Thanks. How about Chicos? I thought "WarriorDad" but was throw by an exchange that involved MUtaman??? Apologies for any collateral damage...
It is widely assumed that Warriordad is Chico. He is being very cagey and throwing up smoke every chance he gets.
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 09:10:50 PM
It is widely assumed that Warriordad is Chico. He is being very cagey and throwing up smoke every chance he gets.
Doesn't he also have BillyHoyle and one other one?
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 09:10:50 PM
It is widely assumed that Warriordad is Chico. He is being very cagey and throwing up smoke every chance he gets.
Needs to be a general amnesty.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 23, 2018, 05:12:07 PM
And all these years I thought the Yankees had an unfair advantage when it came to competing with the Reds.
So you think what Arizona was paying its players is in their books? LOL!
We won so F this thread!!
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
Ners is floorslapper.
yes, and Willie is mazzoburger. Remember if you read it on the internet, it has to be true.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 23, 2018, 11:02:30 PM
yes, and Willie is mazzoburger. Remember if you read it on the internet, it has to be true.
Lol, uhh, not that there was any question, but thanks for confirming that. Hahahaha
Quote from: manny31 on November 23, 2018, 09:08:27 PM
Ok, got it. Thanks. How about Chicos? I thought "WarriorDad" but was throw by an exchange that involved MUtaman??? Apologies for any collateral damage...
i can't be Chico. I've never said anything discriminatory about black people (that I recall) and i don't think I've ever said anything bad about Buzz.
Quote from: wadesworld on November 23, 2018, 09:48:39 PM
So you think what Arizona was paying its players is in their books? LOL!
Fair point. Plus I assume unlike Arizona and Ohio State, Wojo's players actually have to go to class.
Eye'm knot well heeled orr connected. Sew, eye kant bee warriorchick, aina?
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 23, 2018, 09:46:30 PM
Needs to be a general amnesty.
I haven't gotten into it since his return. I haven't gotten into it with Keefe since his return. Tolerance and patience, baby.
Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2018, 09:10:50 PM
It is widely assumed that Warriordad is Chico. He is being very cagey and throwing up smoke every chance he gets.
He is also openly posting as Cheeks...which is funny, because people started calling Warrior Dad "Cheeks" and totally coincidentally Chicos also starts posting as Cheeks.
Quote from: TSmith34 on November 24, 2018, 11:06:02 AM
He is also openly posting as Cheeks...which is funny, because people started calling Warrior Dad "Cheeks" and totally coincidentally Chicos also starts posting as Cheeks.
I was called Cheeks here going back to at least 2012. I'd ask that you use some facts. One of hundreds of examples where I have been called cheeks here.
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33907.msg413301#msg413301
I'm not Billy Hoyle or warriordad or anyone else here.
Quote from: tower912 on November 24, 2018, 10:18:01 AM
I haven't gotten into it since his return. I haven't gotten into it with Keefe since his return. Tolerance and patience, baby.
MU82 is enjoying some good posts:)
Bump
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2019, 07:28:41 AM
Bump
Another fantastic thread to read today.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 24, 2018, 08:34:36 PM
MU82 is enjoying some good posts:)
Why, yes I am. Including many of your typically clueless posts.
So much good stuff in here above and beyond 9-9-9, though. I think I especially like the "Gard is kicking Wojo's arse" angle.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 23, 2018, 02:11:56 PM
1-1?
Let's see how Wojo coaches when he loses two starting players. (We've yet to see Wojo even have to coach through losing a playe for more than 1 game due to injury.) MU health has been truly blessed in his tenure.
Would Morrow and Howard count? I guess this box was checked.
Comedy gold.
I was out of town without internet access when this thread started. Very thankful I missed it. Just reading the first page alone is exhausting. And it goes on and on from there. No thank you. I don't believe for a minute, however, that our recent success means an end to pessimistic diatribes. Simply a welcome respite.
4 to 5 years to do it patiently, get high school kids through, build a culture.
There are other ways to do it. Both are legit. Key for Wojo is who comes in after these Junior depart. If he hits on those kids, then sky's the limit. Need to avoid the rebuild.
Quote from: TSmith34 on November 24, 2018, 11:06:02 AM
He is also openly posting as Cheeks...which is funny, because people started calling Warrior Dad "Cheeks" and totally coincidentally Chicos also starts posting as Cheeks.
And Willie is the Mazzoburger guy!
Quote from: willie warrior on January 31, 2019, 09:44:38 AM
And Willie is the Mazzoburger guy!
I'm mean it's either you or you have a really dedicated superfan
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2019, 07:28:41 AM
Bump
What a difference a few months can make. I've never been happier to have been so wrong.
At the same time, though, how much time do some people have on their hands? Going back through hundreds or thousands of threads to bring up old conversations? Yikes.
All the snow is putting out the fires for Tower
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 31, 2019, 10:02:32 AM
I'm mean it's either you or you have a really dedicated superfan
It could be both.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 31, 2019, 02:12:31 PM
It could be both.
So you're your own biggest fan?
(http://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/04f6b5593a07d13314096b28a30e951852dd6f-wm.jpg?v=3)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 31, 2019, 02:26:36 PM
So you're your own biggest fan?
Leave me out of this, man.