But this was just a horrendous coaching job by Wojo.
Rowsey chucking was abysmal as well but Wojo is mind boggling today.
Next year is the year but I'd love an explanation on this.
Season crippler
What do you want Wojo to do? We're likely going to hold them below 70 points, but we couldn't buy a basket. We're not going to win many games when we shoot this poorly.
I agree 1000%' I take all the credit I gave to Wojo for being adaptable. We won 2 games playing zone, we have an injured guard, Rowsey gets 2 fouls in 2 minutes, and he keeps playing M2M. This is all on him.
Quote from: DJO's Jaw on February 24, 2018, 12:52:55 PM
What do you want Wojo to do? We're likely going to hold them below 70 points, but couldn't buy a basket.
Uhh, maybe have a better offensive approach? Or adjust? Or stop having Rowsey chuck? Seriously, how can all blame always be deflected away from him?
Everything that allowed us to win the last two games Wojo went away from today. Hell the lineup that built a first half lead wasn't even used in the second half.
Quote from: DJO's Jaw on February 24, 2018, 12:52:55 PM
What do you want Wojo to do? We're likely going to hold them below 70 points, but couldn't buy a basket.
Play a fucking zone and DePaul doesn't get 26 free throws
How would playing a zone help the offense or the rebounding?
People really think the defense was the issue? Lol.
Embarrassing :o
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 12:58:40 PM
People really think the defense was the issue? Lol.
You do realize not being able to defend without fouling is a problem right?
Completely don't understand Woj's approach today, and it most likely stuck a fork in MU's season. Guys have to hit shots, but Woj did not put his team in a position to win today.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 12:58:40 PM
People really think the defense was the issue? Lol.
Yes, because our shitty M2M caused our bad rebounding, all the fouls(which allowed DePaul to score so many points from the line)
Quote from: DJO's Jaw on February 24, 2018, 12:57:43 PM
How would playing a zone help the offense or the rebounding?
Check the stats the last 2 games, we rebound better when we play zone.
Wojo wasn't even smart enough to use the lineup in the second half that got him the lead in the first half. I mean it's embarrassing
How does Rowsey not realize that we're a much better team when he's driving and distributing than when he goes into chuck mode? Why wasn't Wojo able to get any control over the bad shots in the second half? Just sad.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 12:58:40 PM
People really think the defense was the issue? Lol.
There were a lot of issues today and no adjustments
1 game but Wojo was baaaaaad today
Our defense gave up 70 points and maybe 8? of those were free throws while we were trying to extend the game. We gave up 37% shooting from the field to DePaul. The defense was not the issue.
We scored 62 points. And about 8 of those came after DePaul was conceding baskets.
The defense was not the issue.
Some of you guys are just hopeless. Remember the good ole times of three days ago when everyone thought no Markus wasn't a bad thing?
Well...
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on February 24, 2018, 01:03:26 PM
How does Rowsey not realize that we're a much better team when he's driving and distributing than when he goes into chuck mode? Why wasn't Wojo able to get any control over the bad shots in the second half? Just sad.
Rowsey is what he is.
This years team needs his jekyl and Hyde play.
But next year with bodies we will be considerably better without him
Quote from: denverMU on February 24, 2018, 01:03:08 PM
Check the stats the last 2 games, we rebound better when we play zone.
Correct
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 12:59:50 PM
You do realize not being able to defend without fouling is a problem right?
I'm not sure being in a zone stops Rowsey from reaching in on a rebounder or from grabbing someone on a fast break. Other than that Sacar got into foul trouble in the second half after being a non factor all game.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 12:59:50 PM
You do realize not being able to defend without fouling is a problem right?
Most of our fouls were during scrambles/put backs after offensive rebounds. The zone would have made our rebounding even worse.
It actually could have made our fouls increase in this game.
We also had about 4 fouls called on clean blocks. Those had nothing to do with zone or M2M.
When we did play zone, Depaul got a lot of very easy buckets. I think they shot 50%+ against the zone. They shot around 35% against M2M. Our defensive game plan was solid.
Depaul out fought us on the boards, and we couldn't make a shot to save our life.
Blaming Wojo in this game is idiotic.
The defense against Depaul getting offensive rebounds were.
Depaul 49 rebounds 19 offensive
MU 30 rebounds 6 offensive
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 01:03:51 PM
Our defense gave up 70 points and maybe 8? of those were free throws while we were trying to extend the game. We gave up 37% shooting from the field to DePaul. The defense was not the issue.
We scored 62 points. And about 8 of those came after DePaul was conceding baskets.
The defense was not the issue.
Exactly. The same old whiners and complainers are blaming it on the coach when the team shot like sh*t.
It's really unbelievable.
EDIT: Actually it is completely believable.
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
Most of our fouls were during scrambles/put backs after offensive rebounds. The zone would have made our rebounding even worse.
It actually could have made our fouls increase in this game.
We also had about 4 fouls called on clean blocks. Those had nothing to do with zone or M2M.
When we did play zone, Depaul got a lot of very easy buckets. I think they shot 50%+ against the zone. They shot around 35% against M2M. Our defensive game plan was solid.
Depaul out fought us on the boards, and we couldn't make a shot to save our life.
Blaming Wojo in this game is idiotic.
We rebounded better the last two games while we played zone. Zone also would've meant less time with Howard and Rowsey on the floor together which is the right lineup for this team.
Again Wojo didn't even use the lineup in the 2nd half that he used to build a lead in the 1st. Coaching absolutely played a role
Quote from: MUDish on February 24, 2018, 01:01:22 PM
Completely don't understand Woj's approach today, and it most likely stuck a fork in MU's season. Guys have to hit shots, but Woj did not put his team in a position to win today.
going to be a hit to the rpi with this loss.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:08:09 PM
We rebounded better the last two games while players no zone. Zone also would've meant less time with Howard and Rowsey on the floor together which is the right lineup for this team.
Again Wojo didn't even use the lineup that he used to build a lead. Coaching absolutely played a role
Not really.
But everyone needs a scapegoat.
Wojo had this team completely unprepared to play today.
DePaul was horrible for much of the first half, and they still win hadily.
I was Wojo's biggest defender, but today he lost me.
Playing the midgets together early in the second half gave DePaul confidence.
Outside of an 8 minute stretch in the first half, we were completely outplayed by a terrible team. DePaul is embarrassing and we weren't even in their league today - in a must win game.
Season over!
Thank god Rowsey is off the team after this year. Next year is make or break for Wojo. If there's no tournament appearance next year, then I want him gone. And I like Wojo a lot. How do we lose to DePaul with the season on the line? Unbelievable.
I am still hopeful for next season with an even more talented & experienced squad.
However 4 out of the last 5 years missing the tournament should never be close to acceptable at Marquette. I don't care how much the cupboard was "left bare" when Wojo arrived.
Hell, even Mike Deane made the tournament in 2 out of his 5 years at least (I know he inherited a good amount of talent from KO's recruiting efforts).
I really hope MU fans don't attend any NIT games should they get a home game at the BC. No reason to support a subpar season. The last game anyone attends at the Bradley Center should be next Saturday against Creighton.
.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:08:56 PM
Not really.
But everyone needs a scapegoat.
When you finally give up on Wojo I'll be around to remind you how late you were to wise up
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 01:03:51 PM
Our defense gave up 70 points and maybe 8? of those were free throws while we were trying to extend the game. We gave up 37% shooting from the field to DePaul. The defense was not the issue.
We scored 62 points. And about 8 of those came after DePaul was conceding baskets.
The defense was not the issue.
Hmm...
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
Most of our fouls were during scrambles/put backs after offensive rebounds. The zone would have made our rebounding even worse.
It actually could have made our fouls increase in this game.
We also had about 4 fouls called on clean blocks. Those had nothing to do with zone or M2M.
When we did play zone, Depaul got a lot of very easy buckets. I think they shot 50%+ against the zone. They shot around 35% against M2M. Our defensive game plan was solid.
Depaul out fought us on the boards, and we couldn't make a shot to save our life.
Blaming Wojo in this game is idiotic.
Interesting...
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:10:48 PM
When you finally give up on Wojo I'll be around to remind you how late you were to wise up
I've said that next year is the year and I'm not completely sold on him.
But today wasn't an example of poor coaching.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:10:48 PM
When you finally give up on Wojo I'll be around to remind you how late you were to wise up
He never will...because NEXT YEAR is THE year..Just ask him(and many others). If you can still support him after losing to a HS team with the season on the line..then you simply just don't get it.
Yes, the team shot like carp and not one MU player showed up.
Losing this game will destroy its RPI out of bid range and now they must win the next two to even be close to consideration. This is the one game they could not lose. Depaul is terrible.
MU shot 8 for 27 from three.
Foul trouble again, 25 fouls to 12. Every game.....
Depaul made 23 for 32 free throws, MU was 6 for 9. 23 to 6.
Add that with offensive rebound difference and thats the ballgame.
As I said before, Depaul had 10 turnovers and 10 made baskets in first half and MU couldn't take advantage cause their offense sucked and turnovers. 10 and 10 is just unreal.
Very disappointed as others, but this is just worst loss of year and will come back to haunt the team.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:08:56 PM
Not really.
But everyone needs a scapegoat.
Not really what? It is factually accurate that we outrebounded the last 2 teams we played while playinf mostly zone.
Quote from: 94Warrior on February 24, 2018, 01:09:17 PM
Wojo had this team completely unprepared to play today.
DePaul was horrible for much of the first half, and they still win hadily.
I was Wojo's biggest defender, but today he lost me.
Playing the midgets together early in the second half gave DePaul confidence.
Outside of an 8 minute stretch in the first half, we were completely outplayed by a terrible team. DePaul is embarrassing and we weren't even in their league today - in a must win game.
Season over!
Maybe for you, but we can still get in. If you have nice tickets for Saturday I'll take them off your hands.
Quote from: denverMU on February 24, 2018, 01:14:02 PM
Not really what? It is factually accurate that we outrebounded the last 2 teams we played while playinf mostly zone.
That coaching was the problem. It wasn't.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:13:01 PM
I've said that next year is the year and I'm not completely sold on him.
But today wasn't an example of poor coaching.
Ok. So he might be a poor coach (we'll know next year) but he might have coached well today. Got it
It almost seems the team plays bettter with only one of the midgets in the game at a time. I wonder what the team practices . They can't seem to rebound , box out or dribble down court.
Quote from: muguru on February 24, 2018, 01:13:10 PM
He never will...because NEXT YEAR is THE year..Just ask him(and many others). If you can still support him after losing to a HS team with the season on the line..then you simply just don't get it.
Can't be a loss without our resident Chicken Little showing up...
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:15:37 PM
That coaching was the problem. It wasn't.
You are exactly right, we lost to the worst team in the Big East today and the coach had nothing to do with it.
Quote from: muwar2014@gmail.com on February 24, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
It almost seems the team plays bettter with only one of the midgets in the game at a time. I wonder what the team practices . They can't seem to rebound , box out or dribble down court.
You'd think the head coach would know this. It's like he wasn't there to witness the last two games. Just inexcusably unreal
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:16:00 PM
Ok. So he might be a poor coach (we'll know next year) but he might have coached well today. Got it
No he's not a poor coach. That would have been evident by now. Maybe not good enough though. Time will tell.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:04:18 PM
Some of you guys are just hopeless. Remember the good ole times of three days ago when everyone thought no Markus wasn't a bad thing?
Well...
Clearly Wojo cannot be left to his own devices. The midget ball M2M formula does not work. Period. No Markus was a good thing because it saved Wojo from Wojo. Simple as that.
It's a bad thing when the head coach can't figure out his team is out=athleticed at every position and insists on playing M2M.
Quote from: denverMU on February 24, 2018, 01:17:48 PM
You are exactly right, we lost to the worst team in the Big East today and the coach had nothing to do with it.
Well he put together an incomplete roster that is too reliant on the outside shot. That's on him.
But outside of that? Nah. If the players don't hit shots there's not much a coach can do.
We stunk today. Ultimately the coach is responsible. The offense was more of a problem than the defense. We shot poorly mostly because we were taking tough shots. Not enough ball movement. We only missed 4 or 5 in rhythm 3s. We were taking forced, not squared up 3s quite a bit.
The other thing is that other than Sacar, our satellite players got very tentative when we fell behind. They have to take their shots and look to score when they get the ball.
The only thing I really hated that he did was the stretch with Hauser playing center. We did poorly with that and he came back with it after a timeout.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Clearly Wojo cannot be left to his own devices. The midget ball M2M formula does not work. Period. No Markus was a good thing because it saved Wojo from Wojo. Simple as that.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! But you dunked in high school right???
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Clearly Wojo cannot be left to his own devices. The midget ball M2M formula does not work. Period. No Markus was a good thing because it saved Wojo from Wojo. Simple as that.
It's a bad thing when the head coach can't figure out his team is out=athleticed at every position and insists on playing M2M.
Do you thought the defense was the issue?
Awesome. Some things never change.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Clearly Wojo cannot be left to his own devices. The midget ball M2M formula does not work. Period. No Markus was a good thing because it saved Wojo from Wojo. Simple as that.
It's a bad thing when the head coach can't figure out his team is out=athleticed at every position and insists on playing M2M.
Yep. I said earlier this week having Howard back would present Wojo with his biggest challenge yet in figuring out his lineups. And he failed miserably
It would not be such a bad thing if Wojo got caught up in the NCAA scandal ... would help the university save face and move on more quickly from this disaster of a coach.
I felt this for awhile. The team offense disappears when Markus is in the game. This game became a three point chucking contest instead of looking for good shots.
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2018, 01:05:34 PM
Most of our fouls were during scrambles/put backs after offensive rebounds. The zone would have made our rebounding even worse.
It actually could have made our fouls increase in this game.
We also had about 4 fouls called on clean blocks. Those had nothing to do with zone or M2M.
When we did play zone, Depaul got a lot of very easy buckets. I think they shot 50%+ against the zone. They shot around 35% against M2M. Our defensive game plan was solid.
Depaul out fought us on the boards, and we couldn't make a shot to save our life.
Blaming Wojo in this game is idiotic.
Perhaps the most idiotic thing ever posted here. Our coach was given an absolute blueprint on how to use his team this year, via a gift horse at Creighton, and he does a complete 180 and reverts back to the formula that gave us mediocrity at best.
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:22:27 PM
Yep. I said earlier this week having Howard back would present Wojo with his biggest challenge yet in figuring out his lineups. And he failed miserably
Yep. If he only had your basketball acumen. Man would he be something.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Perhaps the most idiotic thing ever posted here.
No you've set the bar for that. Repeatedly.
I wonder which two or three players will transfer?
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:22:27 PM
Yep. I said earlier this week having Howard back would present Wojo with his biggest challenge yet in figuring out his lineups. And he failed miserably
Excactly NickelDimer!!!!
Completely unprepared in a MUST WIN game. I gave Wojo the benefit of the doubt, until today.
The team clearly plays better with Rowsey or Howard on the bench.
The team needs to play zone to cover up its defensive deficiencies.
Yes, we are all excited for next year, but I honestly don't see the progress from the coaching staff to allow us to reach our potential. This is year 4, and it simply is NOT good enough.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:25:33 PM
Yep. If he only had your basketball acumen. Man would he be something.
Mine? Hell if he only had enough acumen to learn from recent success he'd be worth more than he is. Even yours would suffice! Imagine that!
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:20:37 PM
Well he put together an incomplete roster that is too reliant on the outside shot. That's on him.
But outside of that? Nah. If the players don't hit shots there's not much a coach can do.
Wait, so now your position is that Wojo should not be responsible for player improvement?
That's increasingly pathetic. It's his job to get the game plan right, to improve player skills, to teach a freaking decent defense. He doesn't get a pass because the players he recruited arents good enough. It's year 4.
He hasn't improved and has pretty much relied on success coming from skills players had before getting to Marquette (i.e. shooting).
Quote from: DJO's Jaw on February 24, 2018, 12:52:55 PM
What do you want Wojo to do? We're likely going to hold them below 70 points, but we couldn't buy a basket. We're not going to win many games when we shoot this poorly.
Not play 30 & 0 together. Give 5 & 23 some run. Trap an awful DP team. Anything but what he did.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Perhaps the most idiotic thing ever posted here. Our coach was given an absolute blueprint on how to use his team this year, via a gift horse at Creighton, and he does a complete 180 and reverts back to the formula that gave us mediocrity at best.
This. This times 1000000
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 24, 2018, 01:28:03 PM
Wait, so now your position is that Wojo should not be responsible for player improvement?
That's increasingly pathetic. It's his job to get the game plan right, to improve player skills, to teach a freaking decent defense. He doesn't get a pass because the players he recruited arents good enough. It's year 4.
He hasn't improved and has pretty much relied on success coming from skills players had before getting to Marquette (i.e. shooting).
Holy f*ck what?
You haven't seen improvement in the players since they have gotten here? Wow. Talk about blind.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:25:54 PM
No you've set the bar for that. Repeatedly.
Says the guy who advocates for us getting a Derrick Wilson clone as a grad transfer next year. You are a real piece Sultan.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Perhaps the most idiotic thing ever posted here. Our coach was given an absolute blueprint on how to use his team this year, via a gift horse at Creighton, and he does a complete 180 and reverts back to the formula that gave us mediocrity at best.
Agreed. It is painfully obvious...to just about everyone.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 24, 2018, 01:28:03 PM
Wait, so now your position is that Wojo should not be responsible for player improvement?
That's increasingly pathetic. It's his job to get the game plan right, to improve player skills, to teach a freaking decent defense. He doesn't get a pass because the players he recruited arents good enough. It's year 4.
He hasn't improved and has pretty much relied on success coming from skills players had before getting to Marquette (i.e. shooting).
Wait, you don't think Wojo's players have shown improvements under Wojo? Uhh, okay, I guess? Lol.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:20:37 PM
Well he put together an incomplete roster that is too reliant on the outside shot. That's on him.
But outside of that? Nah. If the players don't hit shots there's not much a coach can do.
Glad you are okay with a loss to DePaul..and here telling everyone they can't be pissed off..
Missed the game today but from what I read, seems like the problem is the same as the one we had all season -- H-E-R-O B-A-L-L.
How long will it take until the guys realize that you win by playing a complete game involving all five of your team members?
How long will it take until your coach sits your Hero Ball players on the bench. He didn't with Carlino. He didn't with Ellenson. He didn't with Reinhardt and now he's not with Rowsey
Do we really expect next year to be any different? We will have more talent yes but our guards are addicted to the "3" ball.
Lot of this reminds me of my grade school. The centers and forwards are there to rebound and toss the ball to the Heroes. It may work in suburban Nashville grade schools. It doesn't work for a high-level NCAA team.
Cue up.. "I'm Looking for a Hero....!"
Quote from: muguru on February 24, 2018, 01:35:18 PM
Glad you are okay with a loss to DePaul..and here telling everyone they can't be pissed off..
1. Never said I was OK with a loss.
2. I never said you couldn't be pissed off.
Reading is fundamental.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:06:09 PM
Exactly. The same old whiners and complainers are blaming it on the coach when the team shot like sh*t.
It's really unbelievable.
EDIT: Actually it is completely believable.
You've got to be kidding me, right sultan?
You have a formula that's won the past two games -1 midget and zone defense (for the majority).
You go away from that in the second half with mostly Roawey/Howard in at the same time...and you lose.
That's NOT ON WOJO? How do you NOT play Cain more? Sacar and Sam looked worse with those TWO BOTH ON THE FLOOR.
Dumb take. Wojo's fault today. Seat is hot next year and I'm the last person that wants that.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 01:34:28 PM
Wait, you don't think Wojo's players have shown improvements under Wojo? Uhh, okay, I guess? Lol.
Here's the deal: Wojo has recruited well. Very skilled shooters. Players ARE improving under Wojo and staff. BUT, the problem is, THE COACH ISN'T IMPROVING.
I mean we all know eFG reigns supreme and we were 4th in the country in eFG last season and we BARELY snuck in the NCAA tourney. We had prolifically great shooting last year, and to an extent again this year - yet best we can be is a 9-9 Big East team that misses NCAA or limps into the NCAA as 10 seed?
Wojo deserves next year. Still not advocating in any way to move on from him after this year, BUT, today was BAD.
Quote from: TheGRIMEYwrk on February 24, 2018, 01:38:07 PM
You've got to be kidding me, right sultan?
You have a formula that's won the past two games -1 midget and zone defense (for the majority).
You go away from that in the second half with mostly Roawey/Howard in at the same time...and you lose.
That's NOT ON WOJO? How do you NOT play Cain more? Sacar and Sam looked worse with those TWO BOTH ON THE FLOOR.
Dumb take. Wojo's fault today. Seat is hot next year and I'm the last person that wants that.
Nah.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Perhaps the most idiotic thing ever posted here. Our coach was given an absolute blueprint on how to use his team this year, via a gift horse at Creighton, and he does a complete 180 and reverts back to the formula that gave us mediocrity at best.
What game plan did we use when we beat Seton Hall by 20, or UW by 20, or battled #1 Nova to the wire?
You are self-proclaiming two games as "our best" of the year, because it suits your argument, and in the process throwing out a season of data.
You throw out games like Howard single handily winning the game for us @Providence by scoring 52, and instead focus on a short series of games where he was struggling, to justify an argument of us being better without Howard. Those are all invalid approaches, and display extreme bias from the reality of the data.
We win when we shoot well. We lose when we struggle to score.
We beat Depaul by 18 the first time, because we out rebounded them, using the same game plan as tonight.
We couldn't score, and we couldn't rebound in this game. We played great defense. That is the reality.
Stop Maric/Strauss from combining for 9 offensive rebounds and we win this game too. Heldt/Theo grab a few offensive rebounds of their own, and we win by 10.
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2018, 01:42:03 PM
What game plan did we use when we beat Seton Hall by 20, or UW by 20, or battled #1 Nova to the wire?
You are self-proclaiming two games as "our best" of the year, because it suits your argument, and in the process throwing out a season of data.
You throw out games like Howard single handily winning the game for us @Providence by scoring 52, and instead focus on a short series of games where he was struggling, to justify an argument of us being better without Howard. Those are all invalid approaches, and display extreme bias from the reality of the data.
We win when we shoot well. We lose when we struggle to score.
We beat Depaul by 18 the first time, because we out rebounded them, using the same game plan as tonight.
We couldn't score, and we couldn't rebound in this game. We played great defense. That is the reality.
Stop Maric/Strauss from combining for 9 offensive rebounds and we win this game too. Heldt/Theo grab a few offensive rebounds of their own, and we win by 10.
Amen brother! Well stated.
I count DR in defense. John and Cain getting 6 total minutes in the 2nd half and Froling playing zero minutes is weird when we are getting killed on the defensive boards.
Also, after we had crawled back into the game, ran a Sacar ISO out of the time out, which was also weird.
If you would have told me before the game we hold Depaul to 37% shooting, 17% 3 point shooting, and under 72 points I would have taken it.
Defense had some issues here and there, but this was a terrible offensive game from the opening tip. FT disparity partly on our style of play, but the refs were avg at best.
Rebounding. 30 to 49. How many possessions did they have 3 or 4 rebounds? A frustrating day.
Quote from: bilsu on February 24, 2018, 01:23:19 PM
I felt this for awhile. The team offense disappears when Markus is in the game. This game became a three point chucking contest instead of looking for good shots.
Today it was Rowsey not Markus.
We got a lead at half with just Markus.
Then the Rowsey chuck came.
I think that first one early in the second half was from 50 feet
My son heard Wojo scream "F'ing predictable" in the tunnel. Do you think Coach has an account on Scoop!
When I read this board it appears that folks are split into two separate distinct realities concerning Wojo that will all be clarified next year. You see some experts on this board say it takes 5 years to assess a coach. Well Wojo is going nowhere so we will find out.
What I do know is Wojo can not coach Rowsey consistently. Wojo understands the problem as he has said many times we win when Rowsey distributes. Well did Rowsey distribute today, did he stay out of foul trouble, did he protect the ball?
Interesting we win games when we drive the ball and take open 3's. When we do not play hero ball. When we play as a team. Yes we did not block out and we did not rebound. It is a contributing factor but when our splash heros do not hit their shots they also simply forget the other aspects of the game. I believe Wojo is spot on that we lack maturity. But it is not the Freshman who are the problem.
Next year will be better but please someone help us if we do not find a team oriented point guard. Please Wojo no more hero ball for me.
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2018, 01:42:03 PM
What game plan did we use when we beat Seton Hall by 20, or UW by 20, or battled #1 Nova to the wire?
You are self-proclaiming two games as "our best" of the year, because it suits your argument, and in the process throwing out a season of data.
You throw out games like Howard single handily winning the game for us @Providence by scoring 52, and instead focus on a short series of games where he was struggling, to justify an argument of us being better without Howard. Those are all invalid approaches, and display extreme bias from the reality of the data.
We win when we shoot well. We lose when we struggle to score.
We beat Depaul by 18 the first time, because we out rebounded them, using the same game plan as tonight.
We couldn't score, and we couldn't rebound in this game. We played great defense. That is the reality.
Stop Maric/Strauss from combining for 9 offensive rebounds and we win this game too. Heldt/Theo grab a few offensive rebounds of their own, and we win by 10.
Beating Wisconsin is no great feat this year dude. We haven't beaten a Top 30 Pomeroy team all year. Here's a season of data you should chew on: We suck in M2M defense with the Howard/Rowsey lineup. We give teams 25+ trips to FT line every game while in your great formula. WE are generally outsized and outathletic-ed at every position, and our coach INSISTS on playing M2M.
Rebounding is part of playing defense, and yes, we were abysmal in rebounding today. Yet somehow we managed to outrebound Creighton and St Johns will playing 65-70% zone D. When you are consistently at a disadvantage athletically in M2M D, you are generally trailing the overall possession, which in turn creates challenges for defensive rebounding.
Quote from: Class71 on February 24, 2018, 01:53:26 PM
When I read this board it appears that folks are split into two separate distinct realities concerning Wojo that will all be clarified next year. You see some experts on this board say it takes 5 years to assess a coach. Well Wojo is going nowhere so we will find out.
What I do know is Wojo can not coach Rowsey consistently. Wojo understands the problem as he has said many times we win when Rowsey distributes. Well did Rowsey distribute today, did he stay out of foul trouble, did he protect the ball?
Interesting we win games when we drive the ball and take open 3's. When we do not play hero ball. When we play as a team. Yes we did not block out and we did not rebound. It is a contributing factor but when our splash heros doe not hit their shots they also simply forget the other aspects of the game. I believe Wojo is spot on that we lack maturity. But it is not the Freshman who are the problem.
Next year will be better but please someone help us if we do not find a team oriented point guard. Please Wojo no more hero ball for me.
I'm in the middle camp.
Today his coaching/adjustments were terrible.
Have thought other days he's been great.
Next year he will have a squad. Gonna have to prove the haters or the backers wrongs
Hopefully it's the haters
Quote from: DienerTime34 on February 24, 2018, 01:22:36 PM
It would not be such a bad thing if Wojo got caught up in the NCAA scandal ... would help the university save face and move on more quickly from this disaster of a coach.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/1e9a3f6d3a4e675f299360ee0f710396/tenor.gif?itemid=7567890)
This is so ridiculous on every possible ridiculous level.
Quote from: TheGRIMEYwrk on February 24, 2018, 01:38:07 PM
You've got to be kidding me, right sultan?
You have a formula that's won the past two games -1 midget and zone defense (for the majority).
You go away from that in the second half with mostly Roawey/Howard in at the same time...and you lose.
That's NOT ON WOJO? How do you NOT play Cain more? Sacar and Sam looked worse with those TWO BOTH ON THE FLOOR.
Dumb take. Wojo's fault today. Seat is hot next year and I'm the last person that wants that.
Defense was the issue today? Not the game I attended. Rebounding was. Zone defenses are killer in rebounding and we already were being blown out on the glass.
Quote from: MUDPT on February 24, 2018, 01:47:47 PM
I count DR in defense. John and Cain getting 6 total minutes in the 2nd half and Froling playing zero minutes is weird when we are getting killed on the defensive boards.
Also, after we had crawled back into the game, ran a Sacar ISO out of the time out, which was also weird.
He ran Sacar isos v. both Creighton and SJU and they both resulted in baskets.
Would've like to have seen more Theo. Not sure if that was a foul thing or not. Heldt was only one without a TO today though.
Chalking it up mostly to an abysmal shooting and rebounding day, but some of Wojo's 2nd half lineup choices did frustrate me. Worst loss on the resume, but losing to DePaul isn't an automatic nuclear bomb to your season as some people are irrationally spouting off. A steep uphill battle to the tourney, we'll see how it plays out.
Quote from: WarriorDad on February 24, 2018, 02:02:21 PM
Defense was the issue today? Not the game I attended. Rebounding was. Zone defenses are killer in rebounding and we already were being blown out on the glass.
Defensive rebounding is part of defense. We can't play man without fouling and got killed in the FT margin. And again our rebounding stats in zone are why we won the rebounding battle the last two games
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 01:08:09 PM
We rebounded better the last two games while we played zone. Zone also would've meant less time with Howard and Rowsey on the floor together which is the right lineup for this team.
Again Wojo didn't even use the lineup in the 2nd half that he used to build a lead in the 1st. Coaching absolutely played a role
Missed the game, what lineup was it?
Small signs of life followed by laying a big egg has been a trademark of the Wojo era. Very similar to Kidd's tenure with the Bucks.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
He ran Sacar isos v. both Creighton and SJU and they both resulted in baskets.
That creighton "ISO" you are thinking of, was a designed drive and kick.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on February 24, 2018, 02:04:54 PM
Missed the game, what lineup was it?
Howard, GE, Sam and a mix of Cain/Anim and Theo/Heldt
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 02:04:08 PM
Defensive rebounding is part of defense. We can't play man without fouling and got killed in the FT margin. And again our rebounding stats in zone are why we win the rebounding battle the last two games
Rebounding is about 50-50 balls. Defense is preventing shots, forcing bad shots, forcing turnovers. Once the ball hits the rim, that is 50-50 time, we've done our job defensively now secure the loose ball. We were terrible at it today, at times the refs let Depaul get away some stuff, but overall terrible.
Bad loss. Bad team loss.
Quote from: i71_dawg on February 24, 2018, 01:10:15 PM
I really hope MU fans don't attend any NIT games should they get a home game at the BC.
.
::)
I'm on the Blue & Gold Shuttle, not a lot of blue & gold colored glasses here.
Quote from: MUDPT on February 24, 2018, 02:06:46 PM
That creighton "ISO" you are thinking of, was a designed drive and kick.
I'd also add if you're going to iso Anim you have him drive paint where he's 1000x better not baseline
Quote from: NickelDimer on February 24, 2018, 02:06:52 PM
Howard, GE, Sam and a mix of Cain/Anim and Theo/Heldt
Cain played 7 minutes total....Today was small, small ball.
Quote from: WarriorDad on February 24, 2018, 02:07:26 PM
Rebounding is about 50-50 balls. Defense is preventing shots, forcing bad shots, forcing turnovers. Once the ball hits the rim, that is 50-50 time, we've done our job defensively now secure the loose ball. We were terrible at it today, at times the refs let Depaul get away some stuff, but overall terrible.
Bad loss. Bad team loss.
Far cry from chokin' dogs peein' down our legs, a'ina?
Quote from: forgetful on February 24, 2018, 01:42:03 PM
What game plan did we use when we beat Seton Hall by 20, or UW by 20, or battled #1 Nova to the wire?
You are self-proclaiming two games as "our best" of the year, because it suits your argument, and in the process throwing out a season of data.
You throw out games like Howard single handily winning the game for us @Providence by scoring 52, and instead focus on a short series of games where he was struggling, to justify an argument of us being better without Howard. Those are all invalid approaches, and display extreme bias from the reality of the data.
We win when we shoot well. We lose when we struggle to score.
We beat Depaul by 18 the first time, because we out rebounded them, using the same game plan as tonight.
We couldn't score, and we couldn't rebound in this game. We played great defense. That is the reality.
Stop Maric/Strauss from combining for 9 offensive rebounds and we win this game too. Heldt/Theo grab a few offensive rebounds of their own, and we win by 10.
Agreed. Our poor shooting certainly contributed, and we got absolutely destroyed on the boards. 49-30? 19 offensive boards for DP? That's more than double their season average. Woof!
As for our defense...we held DP to 37%. That would have been good enough to win if we had just kept them off the offensive glass.
Losing Cheatham -- a 6'5" starting guard -- after 5 games had a devastating ripple effect on the team.
It led to the imbalanced lineup -- two small guards who are scorers, not distributors -- playing at the same time. Cheatham was also a much better defender than either Rowsey or Howard. And it forced Elliott to play a lot more than he otherwise would have. That's probably a good thing in the long-run, but didn't help our win-loss record this season.
I think a lot of folks have already forgotten that our back court should have mainly been Cheatham & Howard with Rowsey & to a lesser extent Elliott off the bench.
Quote from: Mutaman on February 24, 2018, 02:06:32 PM
Small signs of life followed by laying a big egg has been a trademark of the Wojo era. Very similar to Kidd's tenure with the Bucks.
We do seem to have big swings lately. Why is that? How can this team beat Creighton on the road and then play some badly against Depaul? Weird team to root for. Lots of ups and downs.
Quote from: WarriorHal on February 24, 2018, 02:34:02 PM
Losing Cheatham -- a 6'5" starting guard -- after 5 games had a devastating ripple effect on the team.
It led to the imbalanced lineup -- two small guards who are scorers, not distributors -- playing at the same time. Cheatham was also a much better defender than either Rowsey or Howard. And it forced Elliott to play a lot more than he otherwise would have. That's probably a good thing in the long-run, but didn't help our win-loss record this season.
I think a lot of folks have already forgotten that our back court should have mainly been Cheatham & Howard with Rowsey & to a lesser extent Elliott off the bench.
Cheatham, Howard and Rowsey were all starting at the beginning of the year. Anim is the one who is starting now that Cheatham is gone.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 24, 2018, 02:38:49 PM
We do seem to have big swings lately. Why is that? How can this team beat Creighton on the road and then play some badly against Depaul? Weird team to root for. Lots of ups and downs.
Would be nice to have prolonged "up" for about the next month, but I'll take the next 2-3 games. Baffles me too.
I'm not sure if the zone would've been the difference but Rowsey was getting abused in the lane by Cyrus. An adjustment needed to be made there. Having said that, name a time this team has shot this poorly. And the rebounding was atrocious. Hard for any coach to overcome that.
Quote from: PGsHeroes32 on February 24, 2018, 01:59:59 PM
I'm in the middle camp.
Today his coaching/adjustments were terrible.
Have thought other days he's been great.
Next year he will have a squad. Gonna have to prove the haters or the backers wrongs
Hopefully it's the haters
Yup, next year we will be really good. And the year after too.Aint no thang to lose to DePaul
Quote from: denverMU on February 24, 2018, 12:54:15 PM
I agree 1000%' I take all the credit I gave to Wojo for being adaptable. We won 2 games playing zone, we have an injured guard, Rowsey gets 2 fouls in 2 minutes, and he keeps playing M2M. This is all on him.
Huh?
Yes Rowsey got 2 early fouls, and he played Marcus. What would you do? Camaction?
Played zone. Didn't work. Shot like crap. Lost.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 01:19:29 PM
No he's not a poor coach. That would have been evident by now. Maybe not good enough though. Time will tell.
Well, if he's not a poor coach, then the talent he brought in is piss poor, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 24, 2018, 04:01:48 PM
Well, if he's not a poor coach, then the talent he brought in is piss poor, hey?
Nah. It's inexperienced and incomplete. You've got guys you can definitely build around. Joey and Ed will make a big difference next year.
Quote from: Mutaman on February 24, 2018, 02:06:32 PM
Small signs of life followed by laying a big egg has been a trademark of the Wojo era. Very similar to Kidd's tenure with the Bucks.
This.
Concerned that other coaches are beating Wojo in the rematch game, save for SH and St. Johns. Talent hasn't changed. Therefore, others make adjustments while Wojo stands there and grasps his johnson.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 24, 2018, 04:08:27 PM
Concerned that other coaches are beating Wojo in the rematch game, save for SH and St. Johns. Talent hasn't changed. Therefore, others make adjustments while Wojo stands there and grasps his johnson.
Ummm...in rematches where we split, Wojo is 1-2 (beat SJU, lost to PC and DP). Nova, X, Butler and SHU were sweeps, and GTown and Creighton are tbd.
If we lose both of those, you might be on to something.....
Why did Cain, Frolling and John get a combined 17 minutes? Might not have been the answer, but certainly playing a nowhere near 100% Markus for 31 wasn't either.
Try some different lineups. Make some adjustments. Feed the post. Again, that still might not have worked, but a good coach should at least try his hand with all the options he has in the toolbox.
What, exactly, did Wojo do that earned him his $33,333 tonight?
Well, he gave us hope for next year. That's worth something, right?
Quote from: #bansultan on February 24, 2018, 04:03:14 PM
Nah. It's inexperienced and incomplete. You've got guys you can definitely build around. Joey and Ed will make a big difference next year.
Ed will help rebounding. Joey is an unknown.
Quote from: connie on February 24, 2018, 04:35:26 PM
Well, he gave us hope for next year. That's worth something, right?
Yup. the top mantra here is there is always next year, as each season flames out.
Quote from: The Lens on February 24, 2018, 02:08:24 PM
I'm on the Blue & Gold Shuttle, not a lot of blue & gold colored glasses here.
This. Those who say Wojo is on the hot seat are wrong. Those who say it is ice cold are also wrong.
There was a very small MU Alumni Pre-game...say 50ish. Nice gig but tepid. Post game in the bars: Apathetic to resigned.
This may be known as the game Wojo lost the alumni.
Quote from: WayOfTheWarrior on February 24, 2018, 02:54:16 PM
Would be nice to have prolonged "up" for about the next month, but I'll take the next 2-3 games. Baffles me too.
I heard on the Real Chilly Podcast that Wojo has never won 3 Big East games in a row.
Quote from: tower912 on February 24, 2018, 03:56:06 PM
Played zone. Didn't work. Shot like crap. Lost.
[/
I believe you meant.....Played M2M (fucking terrible as usual) Didn't work (SUPRISE! SUPRISE! SUPRISE! Jethro) Lost!
Quote from: denverMU on February 24, 2018, 05:33:02 PM
Quote from: tower912 on February 24, 2018, 03:56:06 PM
Played zone. Didn't work. Shot like crap. Lost.
[/
I believe you meant.....Played M2M (unnatural carnal knowledgeing terrible as usual) Didn't work (SUPRISE! SUPRISE! SUPRISE! Jethro) Lost!
We gave up 70 points, of which at least 10% came while we were intentionally sending them to the line to extend the game, and allowed them to shoot a whopping 37% from the floor. I'd say our defense worked very well, unless you were expecting to hold them under about 55 points and about 25% shooting. Then yeah, I guess our defense didn't work.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 05:36:32 PM
We gave up 70 points, of which at least 10% came while we were intentionally sending them to the line to extend the game, and allowed them to shoot a whopping 37% from the floor. I'd say our defense worked very well, unless you were expecting to hold them under about 55 points and about 25% shooting. Then yeah, I guess our defense didn't work.
You can shoot 37% from the floor when you get 19 offensive rebounds, and send the opposition to the FT line 32 times. And yea, I'm aware about 8 of the FT trips were due to intentionally fouling. We got abused physically in this game. M2M D with an undersized lineup is not the answer.
We used zone about 7 possessions today. Major mistake.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 05:39:33 PM
You can shoot 37% from the floor when you get 19 offensive rebounds, and send the opposition to the FT line 32 times. And yea, I'm aware about 8 of the FT trips were due to intentionally fouling. We got abused physically in this game. M2M D with an undersized lineup is not the answer.
We used zone about 7 possessions today. Major mistake.
We gave up many more PPP in the zone than we did in man. Even with all the offensive rebounds, we would've given up maybe 65? Points if we didn't have to foul to extend the game. The defense was never the problem. Turnovers and missed shots lost this game.
Woof. Think that was the toughest game of the year to watch. Other than that one crazy 50 50 ball that led to a Rowdy three, I thought we got out toughed on almost every rebound and loose ball. Hate seeing that. Bad loss, no way around that.
I saw more issues with players than coaching today. Howard clearly wasnt 100%, Rowdy had zero success getting into the teeth od the defense and distributing. Heldt and every guard was consistently out muscled on rebounds. Hauser and the frosh weren't hitting shots that they were the past few games.
M2M defense forced a lot of TOs but we did nothing with a lot of them. Felt like we played down to DePauls sloppiness.
I don't have the numbers yet but my eye test tells me that the zone was not effective today while the M2M was. I'll post numbers when they become available.
The rebounding was so frustrating. Conventional basketball wisdom says that zones are harder to rebound in than M2M. But those pointing out that we've been great rebounding in the zone aren't wrong. Is there something with our team that makes it easier to rebound in zone? Or did we just have really good rebounding games the last two? Not sure.
Those screaming about Wojo playing the midgets together...We started the second half with just Rowdy on the court....the "lineup that won us the last two games." That's when DePaul went on its biggest run of the game. Wojo tried it and it didn't work this game. He tried a bunch of lineups after it that all had similar issues. It was a 2 midget lineup that finally broke our offensive slump and cut it to 5. We had a wife open three that would have cut it to 2 bur it didn't fall. Game fell out of reach after that.
I missed the first minute. We're Rowdy's fouls defending in the M2M? Thought I saw someone say they were on a rebound and a daybreak.
Definitely room to criticize the coaching staff. Took too long to figure out how to attack DePauls second half defense. Thought we could have used more Cain and Froling with all the rebounding woes. But this honestly seems more like a case of too many players having really bad games at the same time. Not one of the big three were locked in today
Quote from: wadesworld on February 24, 2018, 05:41:14 PM
We gave up many more PPP in the zone than we did in man. Even with all the offensive rebounds, we would've given up maybe 65? Points if we didn't have to foul to extend the game. The defense was never the problem. Turnovers and missed shots lost this game.
It was a combination of poor shooting on our part, and awful defensive rebounding. 19 Offensive Boards yielded was a major component to our losing. I consider securing the defensive rebound part of defense.
What is your breakdown for this game on PPP zone vs man? IMO, playing ~7 possessions of zone isn't enough. We played it exclusively in 2nd half of Creighton game, with a lot of Cain in the zone, and they were .94ppp. Cain had quick fouls in the game today, but he played 7 minutes. His length is supremely helpful to the team defensively and on the glass.
I simply do not understand why Wojo would insist on playing M2M with both Howard and Rowsey on the floor together for a vast majority of the 2nd half. Can you honestly say that makes any sense after what we observed the 60 minutes of game time against Creighton and St. John's?
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 05:49:25 PM
I simply do not understand why Wojo would insist on playing M2M with both Howard and Rowsey on the floor together for a vast majority of the 2nd half. Can you honestly say that makes any sense after what we observed the 60 minutes of game time against Creighton and St. John's?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2018, 05:44:58 PM
Those screaming about Wojo playing the midgets together...We started the second half with just Rowdy on the court....the "lineup that won us the last two games." That's when DePaul went on its biggest run of the game. Wojo tried it and it didn't work this game. He tried a bunch of lineups after it that all had similar issues. It was a 2 midget lineup that finally broke our offensive slump and cut it to 5. We had a wife open three that would have cut it to 2 bur it didn't fall. Game fell out of reach after that.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 24, 2018, 06:54:26 PM
We started the second half in M2M. The formula is simple: One of Markus or Rowsey on the floor, and the team plays zone...with a lot of Jamal Cain. Period. End of story. Cain played 7 minutes.
Wojo totally abandoned the zone today. As chronicled multiple times, we are a train wreck rebounding out of M2M, have a much higher propensity to foul, and between the 19 O-Rebounds yielded, and 33 FTs given - you can't win a basketball game like that when your A-game offense isn't there.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 24, 2018, 05:30:00 PM
I heard on the Real Chilly Podcast that Wojo has never won 3 Big East games in a row.
And yet, according to some, he's the third best coach in the conference. Wonder how that works...
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 24, 2018, 09:33:58 PM
We started the second half in M2M. The formula is simple: One of Markus or Rowsey on the floor, and the team plays zone...with a lot of Jamal Cain. Period. End of story. Cain played 7 minutes.
Wojo totally abandoned the zone today. As chronicled multiple times, we are a train wreck rebounding out of M2M, have a much higher propensity to foul, and between the 19 O-Rebounds yielded, and 33 FTs given - you can't win a basketball game like that when your A-game offense isn't there.
Cain had 4 fouls in 7 minutes. Our problem was rebounding and offense i still dont get the people that are screaming that we needed zone. Yes maybe normally but not in this one, they shredded our zone and our man was pretty good. We have been giving up over 90 ppg on the road in BE. If we shoot the ball n value the ball like we have in all our other BE games we win comfortably. We didnt, man was the ticket today, kudos to Wojo. I understand people are frustrated but the zone mantra is wrong on this day.
all
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 25, 2018, 12:07:39 AM
Cain had 4 fouls in 7 minutes. Our problem was rebounding and offense i still dont get the people that are screaming that we needed zone. Yes maybe normally but not in this one, they shredded our zone and our man was pretty good. We have been giving up over 90 ppg on the road in BE. If we shoot the ball n value the ball like we have in all our other BE games we win comfortably. We didnt, man was the ticket today, kudos to Wojo. I understand people are frustrated but the zone mantra is wrong on this day.
all
Cain had three fouls. One of which was a horse crap call. We barely played any zone. It wasn't shredded. Out M2M gets shredded via being a fouling machine. We've rebounded much better out of zone two prior games.
Why are we talking about defense? What game and season have you guys been watching?
MU lost yesterday 70-62. Notice that 62? It's the lowest point total all year.
Fine, maybe playing zone might have shaved 5-10 points off DePaul's total. Hell, maybe 15 points.
MU lost because their offense over 40 minutes wasn't hitting season averages. Specifically, MU opened the 2H scoring SIX points over THIRTEEN minutes. That's horrific and MU was only had a chance because their defense held DePaul to 37%.
Letting DePaul score 70 points was not the issue. Scoring the fewest points of the entire season .. that was it. I don't see Wojo that culpable in guys missing shots. His guys had a bad shooting night and didn't get the foul calls.
(Side note .. Looking at DePaul's season, this is the 5th time they've lost 3-in-a-row, then won a game. What a strange pattern. Their entire BE season .. win a game, lose 3.)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 25, 2018, 08:22:09 AM
Why are we talking about defense? What game and season have you guys been watching?
MU lost yesterday 70-62. Notice that 62? It's the lowest point total all year.
Fine, maybe playing zone might have shaved 5-10 points off DePaul's total. Hell, maybe 15 points.
MU lost because their offense over 40 minutes wasn't hitting season averages. Specifically, MU opened the 2H scoring SIX points over THIRTEEN minutes. That's horrific and MU was only had a chance because their defense held DePaul to 37%.
Letting DePaul score 70 points was not the issue. Scoring the fewest points of the entire season .. that was it. I don't see Wojo that culpable in guys missing shots. His guys had a bad shooting night and didn't get the foul calls.
(Side note .. Looking at DePaul's season, this is the 5th time they've lost 3-in-a-row, then won a game. What a strange pattern. Their entire BE season .. win a game, lose 3.)
+ Worst statistically offensive game since the Iowa cow pie.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 25, 2018, 08:37:03 AM
+ Worst statistically offensive game since the Iowa cow pie.
And against a team like DuhPaul, that still should have been enough..
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 25, 2018, 08:22:09 AM
Why are we talking about defense? What game and season have you guys been watching?
MU lost yesterday 70-62. Notice that 62? It's the lowest point total all year.
Fine, maybe playing zone might have shaved 5-10 points off DePaul's total. Hell, maybe 15 points.
MU lost because their offense over 40 minutes wasn't hitting season averages. Specifically, MU opened the 2H scoring SIX points over THIRTEEN minutes. That's horrific and MU was only had a chance because their defense held DePaul to 37%.
Letting DePaul score 70 points was not the issue. Scoring the fewest points of the entire season .. that was it. I don't see Wojo that culpable in guys missing shots. His guys had a bad shooting night and didn't get the foul calls.
(Side note .. Looking at DePaul's season, this is the 5th time they've lost 3-in-a-row, then won a game. What a strange pattern. Their entire BE season .. win a game, lose 3.)
Yep. And rebounding: getting beat 49-30 on the boards is inexcusable.
The offense stood still. I am confident Wojo did not tell the team to stop moving on offense.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 25, 2018, 08:22:09 AM
Why are we talking about defense? What game and season have you guys been watching?
MU lost yesterday 70-62. Notice that 62? It's the lowest point total all year.
Fine, maybe playing zone might have shaved 5-10 points off DePaul's total. Hell, maybe 15 points.
MU lost because their offense over 40 minutes wasn't hitting season averages. Specifically, MU opened the 2H scoring SIX points over THIRTEEN minutes. That's horrific and MU was only had a chance because their defense held DePaul to 37%.
Letting DePaul score 70 points was not the issue. Scoring the fewest points of the entire season .. that was it. I don't see Wojo that culpable in guys missing shots. His guys had a bad shooting night and didn't get the foul calls.
(Side note .. Looking at DePaul's season, this is the 5th time they've lost 3-in-a-row, then won a game. What a strange pattern. Their entire BE season .. win a game, lose 3.)
offense definitely the problem in this game, and you are correct missing shots is not on Wojo.
However, having few other alternatives to dribbling out the play clock and chucking up a 3 is on Wojo both in terms of not having the personnel and not having a better system. This team is one dimensional and flawed. Take away their one dimension and the team is screwed. To me that's on the coach.
Quote from: tower912 on February 25, 2018, 08:50:16 AM
The offense stood still. I am confident Wojo did not tell the team to stop moving on offense.
No but it's the same offense we've seen too often in conference play when Howard and Rowsey are on the floor together. Predictable
Quote from: hairy worthen on February 25, 2018, 08:53:58 AM
offense definitely the problem in this game, and you are correct missing shots is not on Wojo.
However, having few other alternatives to dribbling out the play clock and chucking up a 3 is on Wojo both in terms of not having the personnel and not having a better system. This team is one dimensional and flawed. Take away their one dimension and the team is screwed. To me that's on the coach.
We had multiple good looks that just didn't fall. I can think of at least 3 that Sam alone had in the 2nd half. AR shot selection was largely the same that it was against St John's, if he's hitting he's SOTG, if he's missing he's heavily criticized. It's the life of a high volume chucker, it's who he is and has always been.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 25, 2018, 09:08:08 AM
We had multiple good looks that just didn't fall. I can think of at least 3 that Sam alone had in the 2nd half. AR shot selection was largely the same that it was against St John's, if he's hitting he's SOTG, if he's missing he's heavily criticized. It's the life of a high volume chucker, it's who he is and has always been.
agree but that's my point. those shots don't always fall, you have to have other ways to score.
Quote from: hairy worthen on February 25, 2018, 09:14:24 AM
agree but that's my point. those shots don't always fall, you have to have other ways to score.
We haven't had other ways to score all year. It's not a problem that wojo is gonna be able to fix on the fly. Next year it shouldn't be a problem as we will have a legitimate post presence
We also have no one that can really penetrate well other than Sacar. There were a number of times we'd try and drive, take two dribbles and be stuck. We'd have to throw the ball out about 5 feet behind the 3 point line and start over.
It seems like we went away from the Hauser post up game. Maybe DePaul scouted that well and took it away, but it seemed like too much Rowsey/Howard iso again.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 25, 2018, 08:22:09 AM
Why are we talking about defense? What game and season have you guys been watching?
MU lost yesterday 70-62. Notice that 62? It's the lowest point total all year.
The offense sucked, but the defense allowed 19 extra opportunities. We shot a higher percentage from 2 and 3 but lost in part because we gave them so many extra chances.
If the offense is average, we win, but if we box out and don't let DePaul get 3, 4, 5 shots on the same possession, we also win.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 25, 2018, 09:16:52 AM
We haven't had other ways to score all year. It's not a problem that wojo is gonna be able to fix on the fly. Next year it shouldn't be a problem as we will have a legitimate post presence
right but who is responsible for recruiting a post presence? hope it improves next year I think it will.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 25, 2018, 09:20:59 AM
The offense sucked, but the defense allowed 19 extra opportunities. We shot a higher percentage from 2 and 3 but lost in part because we gave them so many extra chances.
If the offense is average, we win, but if we box out and don't let DePaul get 3, 4, 5 shots on the same possession, we also win.
Yes yes yes
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 25, 2018, 09:16:52 AM
We haven't had other ways to score all year. It's not a problem that wojo is gonna be able to fix on the fly. Next year it shouldn't be a problem as we will have a legitimate post presence
We've had Sacar, Greg, and Jamal on the team all year, which means we've had the ability to get to the rim all year. The game last week against Creighton looked like a different team in terms of ball movement and how they looked to get shots than we've seen more much of the year. Where has that been for the rest of the conference season? More importantly, why wouldn't we try to incorporate more of those looks in other games too?
We've seen this offense do more than just chuck 3's, even if that is our bread and butter. When that's not getting the job done, a coach needs to be able to be more flexible and have some new options for the team. Yes, the players need to execute, but we've got to have more options in our offensive game.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 25, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
We've had Sacar, Greg, and Jamal on the team all year, which means we've had the ability to get to the rim all year. The game last week against Creighton looked like a different team in terms of ball movement and how they looked to get shots than we've seen more much of the year. Where has that been for the rest of the conference season? More importantly, why wouldn't we try to incorporate more of those looks in other games too?
We've seen this offense do more than just chuck 3's, even if that is our bread and butter. When that's not getting the job done, a coach needs to be able to be more flexible and have some new options for the team. Yes, the players need to execute, but we've got to have more options in our offensive game.
It sounds like upset at Sacar, Greg, and Jamal for not being more aggressive. All three IMO are hit or miss. They were hitting In the 2nd half again Creighton and the entire game vs st johns, they were missing vs DePaul. It happens with young players
How many times did we try and take it to the basket in the second half.....
Jack....Jack.....Jack.....
Lazy.....Lazy....Lasy.....
And we all know the Prima-donna was the worst.....
Excellent senior leadership.....Totally focused.....Too much dipody-do in his hair????
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 25, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
It sounds like upset at Sacar, Greg, and Jamal for not being more aggressive. All three IMO are hit or miss. They were hitting In the 2nd half again Creighton and the entire game vs st johns, they were missing vs DePaul. It happens with young players
You're right that it can happen with younger guys, but my bigger concern or gripe is that the coaching staff didn't intervene to try to get them to be more aggressive. The inconsistency that we've had this year is so frustrating as a fan because some of it seems correctable. If Jamal or Sacar look flat footed on offense, someone needs to point it out and encourage them to change things up. Isn't that a big part of what coaching is all about? Helping the team adjust mid-game?
I am still numb from losing to DePaul. Wojo this one's on you. Boohoo!
Quote from: skianth16 on February 25, 2018, 04:09:28 PM
You're right that it can happen with younger guys, but my bigger concern or gripe is that the coaching staff didn't intervene to try to get them to be more aggressive. The inconsistency that we've had this year is so frustrating as a fan because some of it seems correctable. If Jamal or Sacar look flat footed on offense, someone needs to point it out and encourage them to change things up. Isn't that a big part of what coaching is all about? Helping the team adjust mid-game?
I haven't rewatched the game so I can't tell you the exact possession, but I remember in the second half we ran the exact play for Sacar where he hit the go ahead shot against Creighton, and that also was successful against St John's. It's a play that clearly wojo likes and has worked recently. Depaul defended it well and Sacar tool and missed a contested shot. It happens. Did we shoot too many threes? Yes. Did Markus and Andrew run too much hero ball? Yes. But the freshman + Sacar did take shots too. Unfortunately our leaders didn't step up, and neither did the younger players that have shown the potential to step up. That's why the game isn't played on paper.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 25, 2018, 06:28:30 PM
I am still numb from losing to DePaul. Wojo this one's on you. Boohoo!
Ya think the players might have had a tad to do with the loss.....?
Quote from: skianth16 on February 25, 2018, 04:09:28 PM
The inconsistency that we've had this year is so frustrating as a fan because some of it seems correctable.
3 freshmen + 4 sophomores = inconsistency.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 25, 2018, 06:40:14 PM
Ya think the players might have had a tad to do with the loss.....?
So if Wojo is excused from any culpability in yesterday's loss, because the guys had a bad shooting night, why then would Wojo get any credit for coaching well when guys are shooting well?
My concern: We were elite shooting the ball last year, and for the most part again this year - yet we will have likely finished a combined .500 in two seasons of Big East play with elite level offense/shooting, and only 1 NCAA tourney bid to show for it, with no NCAA tourney wins.
A coach has to be able to scheme, and adjust, adapt when the A-game isn't there. Wojo got gifted a blueprint for how to use this year's roster, and he went away from that blueprint yesterday for virtually the whole game (Not playing zone), and then for 15 of the 20 minutes of the second half playing Rowsey and Howard together in M2M defense.
IF MU doesn't yield 33 FTs and 19 Offensive boards, despite our poor shooting yesterday (that isn't Wojo's "fault,") we still win the game something like 62-55.
The defense was a problem yesterday as it has been all season long in M2M - a fouling machine and constantly trailing in a possession in M2M and not being able to secure the D-board as a result of being put into rotation/help.
FT's may not matta to some - but I'll trust Buzz Williams more than JayBee. A core coaching philosophy of Buzz's was to make more FT's than the opposition attempts. That never happens under Wojo in conference play. Zone helps mitigate fouling. But Wojo can't get it through his skull that it is his best option for this athletically and size challenged team, even after being shown as much for 60 minutes of basketball in the two preceding games.
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 25, 2018, 06:40:14 PM
Ya think the players might have had a tad to do with the loss.....?
Your right. Fire the GM!
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 25, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
It sounds like upset at Sacar, Greg, and Jamal for not being more aggressive. All three IMO are hit or miss. They were hitting In the 2nd half again Creighton and the entire game vs st johns, they were missing vs DePaul. It happens with young players
I agree. Sacar is really the only guy who has shown he can get to the rim somewhat consistently, and that has only happened over the last few games. Greg and Cain do not have a tight enough handle or the strength to drive successfully yet.
I was disappointed with Sacar on Saturday because he had a great first half, and then only drove a couple times in the second half. Tough to pin it on him though because he is still developing, but wished he would've kept driving. Could've helped get some open shots if nothing else.
What can Wojo control once the game starts?
Offensive sets: Marquette tried to run the same stuff that makes it such a highly ranked offense. They stood still too much and shot poorly. Getting many of the looks that have led to victory. Default scouted MU well.
Defensive sets: held Depaul to 70.
Matchups: I disagree with going small in the second half. Thought Theo should have got more run. But Cain and Elliott played poorly, so what other options did Wojo have other than to ride the 2 top scorers and hope?
My criticism of Wojo for yesterday would have been to run more post up. Play Theo more. Maybe try a twin tower look in the zone when Depaul was dominating the offensive boards.
But he can't make shots. He can't magically make freshmen play well on the road in conference games.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 25, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
So if Wojo is excused from any culpability in yesterday's loss, because the guys had a bad shooting night, why then would Wojo get any credit for coaching well when guys are shooting well.
Wojo took full responsibility. What else do you want? While MU stopped running the offense despite Wojo burning his timeouts, the shots MU missed were wide open.
It was the worst offensive day in a couple of years...the coaching staff isn't blameless...but it is the Big East. Man up for the game tomorrow.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 25, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
So if Wojo is excused from any culpability in yesterday's loss, because the guys had a bad shooting night, why then would Wojo get any credit for coaching well when guys are shooting well?
Bingo. At this point in the season, people are dug in, though. Those on the 5 year plan still won't criticize Wojo when we struggle this season. Depaul was only lost for this crew because our shots didn't fall. Coaches don't take shots, and all that. Losses are on the players. Wins are due to gameplanning. On the other hand, those on the 2 year plan rarely give him credit when we exceed expectations. Pull off an upset on the road? We got lucky some shots fell and studs didn't play up to par. Low opponent FG% wasn't from defense but just good fortune and cold shooting. Losses are on the coaches, wins are due to players showing up.
Realistically, blame and congratulations are owed to all parties, but I'm of the mindset that coaches play a pretty darn big role in the outcome of the games. When we drop the ball like we did Saturday, I think the coaching staff could have done more to prepare the team and make adjustments to the opponent's gameplan. Yeah, Rowsey took some bad shots, and our guys were soft on the boards. But Wojo ignored lessons learned at CU and against SJU, going right back to the same things that have been comfortable all year, an offense-first mindset that doesn't work with cold shooters. Then when we come out shooting cold, we end up dead in the water.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 25, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
So if Wojo is excused from any culpability in yesterday's loss, because the guys had a bad shooting night, why then would Wojo get any credit for coaching well when guys are shooting well?
My concern: We were elite shooting the ball last year, and for the most part again this year - yet we will have likely finished a combined .500 in two seasons of Big East play with elite level offense/shooting, and only 1 NCAA tourney bid to show for it, with no NCAA tourney wins.
A coach has to be able to scheme, and adjust, adapt when the A-game isn't there. Wojo got gifted a blueprint for how to use this year's roster, and he went away from that blueprint yesterday for virtually the whole game (Not playing zone), and then for 15 of the 20 minutes of the second half playing Rowsey and Howard together in M2M defense.
IF MU doesn't yield 33 FTs and 19 Offensive boards, despite our poor shooting yesterday (that isn't Wojo's "fault,") we still win the game something like 62-55.
The defense was a problem yesterday as it has been all season long in M2M - a fouling machine and constantly trailing in a possession in M2M and not being able to secure the D-board as a result of being put into rotation/help.
FT's may not matta to some - but I'll trust Buzz Williams more than JayBee. A core coaching philosophy of Buzz's was to make more FT's than the opposition attempts. That never happens under Wojo in conference play. Zone helps mitigate fouling. But Wojo can't get it through his skull that it is his best option for this athletically and size challenged team, even after being shown as much for 60 minutes of basketball in the two preceding games.
Actually JB and Buzz are on the same page regarding free throws.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 25, 2018, 09:21:49 PM
Actually JB and Buzz are on the same page regarding free throws.
This was my first reaction too
Quote from: #bansultan on February 25, 2018, 09:21:49 PM
Actually JB and Buzz are on the same page regarding free throws.
+1,000
Buzz wanted the team to make more than the other team took, but that was all about getting to the line, not FT percentage. Have we already forgotten all the "Every player must shoot 1,000 free throws" threads that popped up here because people couldn't understand why Buzz's players didn't practice free throws?
Quote from: #bansultan on February 25, 2018, 09:21:49 PM
Actually JB and Buzz are on the same page regarding free throws.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
Quote from: #bansultan on February 25, 2018, 09:21:49 PM
Actually JB and Buzz are on the same page regarding free throws.
If FTs no matta, then why does it matta to get to the FT Line and since percentage doesn't matta you can miss them all. It's a dumb argument. Period.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 08:22:23 AM
If FTs no matta, then why does it matta to get to the FT Line and since percentage doesn't matta you can miss them all. It's a dumb argument. Period.
I see you found a new schtick since the zone didn't work last night.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 08:29:32 AM
I see you found a new schtick since the zone didn't work last night.
FTs no matta not my schtick. Zone didn't work last night? How many possessions did we play it with just one of Rowsey or Markus on the floor? Furthermore alternating in and out of defenses is not the formula.
Was an entertaining and fun game to watch. We won thanks to the incredible shot making of Andrew and Sam. We win, when we shoot at an elite level. If that's not there? We lose. We are a fouling machine in our M2M defense. Feel free to bury your head in the sand and not acknowledge we have a serious problem defending without fouling in M2M
You should find a new schtick other than defending every decision our head coach makes.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 08:33:09 AM
FTs no matta not my schtick. Zone didn't work last night? How many possessions did we play it with just one of Rowsey or Markus on the floor? Furthermore alternating in and out of defenses is not the formula.
Was an entertaining and fun game to watch. We won thanks to the incredible shot making of Andrew and Sam. We win, when we shoot at an elite level. If that's not there? We lose. We are a fouling machine in our M2M defense. Feel free to bury your head in the sand and not acknowledge we have a serious problem defending without fouling in M2M
You should find a new schtick other than defending every decision our head coach makes.
You clearly know more than Wojo, my apologies. Please continue to grace us with your presence when you take over as head coach.
Or, you just like to complain, and start pointless debates. JB has brought out the advanced stats multiple times proving his point.
The decisions that our head coach made last night resulted in a W, blaming Wojo for a win is an interesting perspective. I have said multiple times that throwing different looks on D is something that we should do, but the 2-3 wasn't working last night. Should Wojo also have a 1-3-1, or a 3-2 in his back pocket to pull out in certain situations? Yes. But the mtm was the better defense last night.
I see zone defense is the new John Dawson
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 27, 2018, 08:56:25 AM
I see zone defense is the new John Dawson
Oh God, you mean the zone is going to leave us too? Just when we were getting comfortable with it?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 27, 2018, 08:56:25 AM
I see zone defense is the new John Dawson
now that's funny.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 08:33:09 AM
FTs no matta not my schtick. Zone didn't work last night? How many possessions did we play it with just one of Rowsey or Markus on the floor? Furthermore alternating in and out of defenses is not the formula.
4 possessions. Georgetown shot 80% from the floor (4-5), they got an offensive rebound on their 1 miss and then scored. They scored 10 points in those 4 possessions for a PPP of 2.5.
One good game and it is the Savior.
Quote from: forgetful on February 27, 2018, 09:18:17 AM
4 possessions. Georgetown shot 80% from the floor (4-5), they got an offensive rebound on their 1 miss and then scored. They scored 10 points in those 4 possessions for a PPP of 2.5.
4 possessions. Relevant sample size on a game of 70 possessions. Got it. First sign of adversity, go back to that stellar M2M that has worked wonders all year leading us to a 10th place D rating in conference play, while also yielding the worst FT Rate.
No sense in debating against the stalwart basketball gurus here that bow at the altar of Wojo.
Makes BRITTLIANT sense to defend M2M when you are undersized/outathleticed at every position as it relates to strength, length, quickness.
Look - Im as happy that we beat the Number 100 ranked team in OT last night, while shooting 58% from the 3pt line on 18 makes. That's awesome. It also is absolutely NO formula for ever being a Top 25 team.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 10:29:14 AM
4 possessions. Relevant sample size on a game of 70 possessions. Got it. First sign of adversity, go back to that stellar M2M that has worked wonders all year leading us to a 10th place D rating in conference play, while also yielding the worst FT Rate.
No sense in debating against the stalwart basketball gurus here that bow at the altar of Wojo.
Makes BRITTLIANT sense to defend M2M when you are undersized/outathleticed at every position as it relates to strength, length, quickness.
Look - Im as happy that we beat the Number 100 ranked team in OT last night, while shooting 58% from the 3pt line on 18 makes. That's awesome. It also is absolutely NO formula for ever being a Top 25 team.
I really don't understand your thought process. Everyone knows that our MTM is bad. No one is saying otherwise. People have been saying play more zone. People have been criticizing Wojo for not being able to make adjustments in game. He made the move to zone, it didn't work, he moved back, it did work. Pretty simple. How long would you have stuck with zone if we continued to give up 2.5ppp? It seems like you would be happier if we had played more zone and lost. Also the is no such thing as a bad conference road win.
Magic Zone.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 27, 2018, 08:56:25 AM
I see zone defense is the new John Dawson
And Wojo is the new Derrick Wilson.
If the zone works, stick with it. Teams are preparing for it, just like they do for MU's offense. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. The other coaches adjust, too.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 10:35:27 AM
I really don't understand your thought process. Everyone knows that our MTM is bad. No one is saying otherwise. People have been saying play more zone. People have been criticizing Wojo for not being able to make adjustments in game. He made the move to zone, it didn't work, he moved back, it did work. Pretty simple. How long would you have stuck with zone if we continued to give up 2.5ppp? It seems like you would be happier if we had played more zone and lost. Also the is no such thing as a bad conference road win.
Sorry. If you can't understand the thought process I outlined above, we will agree to disagree.
I don't put stock in a 4 possession sample size. I want Wojo to roll with a zone exclusively, with Cain playing big minutes.
The physical/athletic challenge we face is mitigated by a zone defense. M2M exposes our warts far more and that is why it's been a steady progression of the opposition to the FT Line.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 10:29:14 AM
4 possessions. Relevant sample size on a game of 70 possessions. Got it. First sign of adversity, go back to that stellar M2M that has worked wonders all year leading us to a 10th place D rating in conference play, while also yielding the worst FT Rate.
No sense in debating against the stalwart basketball gurus here that bow at the altar of Wojo.
Makes BRITTLIANT sense to defend M2M when you are undersized/outathleticed at every position as it relates to strength, length, quickness.
Look - Im as happy that we beat the Number 100 ranked team in OT last night, while shooting 58% from the 3pt line on 18 makes. That's awesome. It also is absolutely NO formula for ever being a Top 25 team.
No one said 4 possessions was a relevant sample size for how the statistics would play out. It was a relevant sample size to realize our zone was not going to work against Georgetown.
If he had stuck with it for 10 more possessions we would have lost, and everyone on here would have been saying Wojo sucks, he doesn't make in game adjustments.
He did exactly that in this game. The zone was awful. Govan/Derrickson were eating us alive in the middle, and/or when we collapse on them kicking out to wide open shooters. It was bad against Creighton too, they just missed their wide open 3's (they won't do that again), and their coach didn't understand to put a guy who can hit a 12 footer in the middle of the zone. That won't happen again either.
If we come out in a 2-3 zone, and play it the majority of the game against Creighton, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose by 15+. They will put Hegner or Epperson into the middle of the zone and they will either hit the 12-footer, or we will be forced to guard it, and the bigs will dump it down between each other and light us up (that is what Georgetown was doing with Govan/Derrickson). They will not put Harrell in the middle again for us to exploit.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 11:19:01 AM
Sorry. If you can't understand the thought process I outlined above, we will agree to disagree.
I don't put stock in a 4 possession sample size. I want Wojo to roll with a zone exclusively, with Cain playing big minutes.
The physical/athletic challenge we face is mitigated by a zone defense. M2M exposes our warts far more and that is why it's been a steady progression of the opposition to the FT Line.
I understand that the small sample size leads to somewhat misleading stats, but GU looked like they knew exactly how to attack it. Further, their two best players are post players, and the one area where Matt is above average in mtm defensively is straight up post D. This is why they started posting up whichever one Sam was guarding, that's when we started doubling which had some success. I understand that both Govan and Derrickson shoot the 3 well for bigs, but the threes that they were hitting were contested, not just the wide open 3s we usually give up. If they're both hitting contested 3s I don't think a zone would slow them down.
Cain is a good defender in the zone, however GU was going high low with two post players and that is extremely effective against a 2-3, that's why the Davante Otule line-up was extremely successful against Cuse, but didn't really work against anyone else. We'll never know if we could have won playing more zone, but based on the results, with an admitted small sample size, going away from the zone was the right move.
I still think we'll need it again this season, but I can't stress enough how important match-ups are when determining to run with mtm or zone.
It sure is nice having Ners back to endlessly re-argue every point...again, and again, and again, and again....
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 27, 2018, 11:57:46 AM
It sure is nice having Ners back to endlessly re-argue every point...again, and again, and again, and again....
I'm not saying it is not annoying, but it takes more than one to argue.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 27, 2018, 11:59:02 AM
I'm not saying it is not annoying, but it takes more than one to argue.
Apologies. If you longer wish to read discussions about MU basketball please visit one of the other wonderful websites that the internet has to offer.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 10:29:14 AM
4 possessions. Relevant sample size on a game of 70 possessions. Got it. First sign of adversity, go back to that stellar M2M that has worked wonders all year leading us to a 10th place D rating in conference play, while also yielding the worst FT Rate.
No sense in debating against the stalwart basketball gurus here that bow at the altar of Wojo.
Makes BRITTLIANT sense to defend M2M when you are undersized/outathleticed at every position as it relates to strength, length, quickness.
Look - Im as happy that we beat the Number 100 ranked team in OT last night, while shooting 58% from the 3pt line on 18 makes. That's awesome. It also is absolutely NO formula for ever being a Top 25 team.
We beat a ranked Seton Hall using man. So...
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 12:10:00 PM
Apologies. If you longer wish to read discussions about MU basketball please visit one of the other wonderful websites that the internet has to offer.
I am missing why you quoted me? I was just pointing out that you can't blame one person alone for an argument.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 27, 2018, 01:10:48 PM
I am missing why you quoted me? I was just pointing out that you can't blame one person alone for an argument.
Given Ners reputation I thought that you were implying that everyone should just ignore him and let him piss and moan until he gets tired and leaves. If this was not your intention then I offer a sincere apology.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 01:14:47 PM
Given Ners reputation I thought that you were implying that everyone should just ignore him and let himself piss and moan until he gets tired and leaves. If this was not your intention then I offer a sincere apology.
Except he NEVER gets tired of pissing and moaning and continually rearguing the same point, and he'll never leave until forcibly made to do so. Which happens, multiple times, on every site he participates in.
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 10:35:27 AM
I really don't understand your thought process. Everyone knows that our MTM is bad. No one is saying otherwise. People have been saying play more zone. People have been criticizing Wojo for not being able to make adjustments in game. He made the move to zone, it didn't work, he moved back, it did work. Pretty simple. How long would you have stuck with zone if we continued to give up 2.5ppp? It seems like you would be happier if we had played more zone and lost. Also the is no such thing as a bad conference road win.
It's the same thought process he had about Magic Dawson. No one thought Derrick Wilson was a good PG. We just thought he was better than John Dawson. No one thinks our M2M is good, it's just better than our zone. But because both had one game where it worked really well, Ners has decided it's the answer and doing anything else means the coach is an idiot.
Now I could buy an argument where one could say that zone should have been our base defense from the beginning and that we would be better at defense now if that had happened... Might be true... But right now our M2M is better than our zone
Quote from: forgetful on February 27, 2018, 11:20:14 AM
No one said 4 possessions was a relevant sample size for how the statistics would play out. It was a relevant sample size to realize our zone was not going to work against Georgetown.
If he had stuck with it for 10 more possessions we would have lost, and everyone on here would have been saying Wojo sucks, he doesn't make in game adjustments.
He did exactly that in this game. The zone was awful. Govan/Derrickson were eating us alive in the middle, and/or when we collapse on them kicking out to wide open shooters. It was bad against Creighton too, they just missed their wide open 3's (they won't do that again), and their coach didn't understand to put a guy who can hit a 12 footer in the middle of the zone. That won't happen again either.
If we come out in a 2-3 zone, and play it the majority of the game against Creighton, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose by 15+. They will put Hegner or Epperson into the middle of the zone and they will either hit the 12-footer, or we will be forced to guard it, and the bigs will dump it down between each other and light us up (that is what Georgetown was doing with Govan/Derrickson). They will not put Harrell in the middle again for us to exploit.
Will be fun to see how things play out against Creighton. Wojo will have every option at his disposal.
I like how you are Nostradamus and can project that if we played 10 possessions of zone we would have lost because the irrelevant sample size of 4 possessions was proof positive.
Unfortunate that the same handful of folks here can't handle a dissenting opinion and revert back to their usual par for the course tactic: If you can't attack the argument, attack the poster.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 27, 2018, 01:51:01 PM
It's the same thought process he had about Magic Dawson. No one thought Derrick Wilson was a good PG. We just thought he was better than John Dawson. No one thinks our M2M is good, it's just better than our zone. But because both had one game where it worked really well, Ners has decided it's the answer and doing anything else means the coach is an idiot.
Now I could buy an argument where one could say that zone should have been our base defense from the beginning and that we would be better at defense now if that had happened... Might be true... But right now our M2M is better than our zone
WE went 4-14 in the Big East with Wojo's roster decision-making year 1. We've yet to win 3 conference games in a row with Wojo as head coach, now in Year 4 of the regime. I'd say there is far more evidence toward Wojo not having "it," than there is that he has "it." Hopefully Wojo gets it figured out in Year 5. Don't want another "rebuild."
I'm still waiting for you to provide PPP in zone versus M2M for Big East play TAMU. And why would it matter if our base defense was zone from the beginning? Doing something over and over and over (repetition/consistency) is of absolutely no value, right?
P.S. - WE didn't win last night because our defense was even satisfactory. We won, because, just as it always requires, we were elite shooting the basketball. Our M2M last night was awful, just as it always is.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 27, 2018, 01:51:01 PM
It's the same thought process he had about Magic Dawson. No one thought Derrick Wilson was a good PG. We just thought he was better than John Dawson. No one thinks our M2M is good, it's just better than our zone. But because both had one game where it worked really well, Ners has decided it's the answer and doing anything else means the coach is an idiot.
Now I could buy an argument where one could say that zone should have been our base defense from the beginning and that we would be better at defense now if that had happened... Might be true... But right now our M2M is better than our zone
When you say beginning, are you referring to the beginning of the game, season, or Wojos tenure? Because after the 1st year where our offensive was so bad outside of two players so we couldn't even evaluate our D properly, we have been pretty consistently bad on D. If Wojo had switched to almost exclusively zone in Hanks year, do you think we're better defensively at this point?
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 02:00:47 PM
Unfortunate that the same handful of folks here can't handle a dissenting opinion and revert back to their usual par for the course tactic: If you can't attack the argument, attack the poster.
Yes, yes, it is everyone else's fault.
Questions for you:
How many times have you been banned from this site?
How many times have you been banned from Dodd's site?
How many times have you been banned from other sites?
What is the common element in the three items above?
Quote from: TSmith34 on February 27, 2018, 02:34:21 PM
Yes, yes, it is everyone else's fault.
Questions for you:
How many times have you been banned from this site?
How many times have you been banned from Dodd's site?
How many times have you been banned from other sites?
What is the common element in the three items above?
Believe about 4 times from here and Dodds site.
Common denominator, a handful of soft, sensitive personality types, that cannot handle a dissenting opinion than their own (which is generally critical of Wojo,) and as a result snowflake their way to the moderator asking for removal.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 02:39:09 PM
Believe about 4 times from here and Dodds site.
Common denominator, a handful of soft, sensitive personality types, that cannot handle a dissenting opinion than their own (which is generally critical of Wojo,) and as a result snowflake their way to the moderator asking for removal.
Oohhhhhh, sorry, I didn't realize. You're being
persecuted? Why didn't you say so?
Thoughts and prayers.
Serious question for you slapper. You seem pretty well dug in that zone is the answer on D. As pointed out we only played 4 possessions of zone yesterday, but gave up 10 points (2.5ppp). How many possessions giving up 2.5 ppp would it have taken to convince you otherwise? If we had played the entire half and given up 50? The entire game giving up 100? If a team continues to torch the zone, but we don't have any foul trouble (because of the zone), would you ever make the switch to man just for the sake of throwing a new look at them?
Over more possessions the 2.5ppp would have had to drop, just because that's pretty ridiculous, but if we had only gotten it down to 1.7-1.5, still awful, but better than 2.5, would you still declare the zone a success, or would you still try to shift the blame to Wojo by saying that he should have played Cain more? Just trying to figure out where the line is?
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
Serious question for you slapper. You seem pretty well dug in that zone is the answer on D. As pointed out we only played 4 possessions of zone yesterday, but gave up 10 points (2.5ppp). How many possessions giving up 2.5 ppp would it have taken to convince you otherwise? If we had played the entire half and given up 50? The entire game giving up 100? If a team continues to torch the zone, but we don't have any foul trouble (because of the zone), would you ever make the switch to man just for the sake of throwing a new look at them?
Over more possessions the 2.5ppp would have had to drop, just because that's pretty ridiculous, but if we had only gotten it down to 1.7-1.5, still awful, but better than 2.5, would you still declare the zone a success, or would you still try to shift the blame to Wojo by saying that he should have played Cain more? Just trying to figure out where the line is?
And also, on the first paragraph. Knowing yesterday was a must win game, how long would you have stuck with the zone? 5 consecutive miserable possessions in a must win game is more than enough of a sample size for me to decide it was time to switch away from it.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 08:22:23 AM
If FTs no matta, then why does it matta to get to the FT Line and since percentage doesn't matta you can miss them all. It's a dumb argument. Period.
No you just either don't get what JB is saying, or you are just trying to argue again.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 02:39:09 PM
Believe about 4 times from here and Dodds site.
Common denominator, a handful of soft, sensitive personality types, that cannot handle a dissenting opinion than their own (which is generally critical of Wojo,) and as a result snowflake their way to the moderator asking for removal.
(http://www.bigisthenewsmall.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/self-awareness-241x300.jpg)
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 27, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
Serious question for you slapper. You seem pretty well dug in that zone is the answer on D. As pointed out we only played 4 possessions of zone yesterday, but gave up 10 points (2.5ppp). How many possessions giving up 2.5 ppp would it have taken to convince you otherwise? If we had played the entire half and given up 50? The entire game giving up 100? If a team continues to torch the zone, but we don't have any foul trouble (because of the zone), would you ever make the switch to man just for the sake of throwing a new look at them?
Over more possessions the 2.5ppp would have had to drop, just because that's pretty ridiculous, but if we had only gotten it down to 1.7-1.5, still awful, but better than 2.5, would you still declare the zone a success, or would you still try to shift the blame to Wojo by saying that he should have played Cain more? Just trying to figure out where the line is?
I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently. As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions. I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.
I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M. This pattern followed throughout the first half. We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game. No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise. I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half. We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.
Guys, Ners was an All North Woods Conference performer for Minoqua High School. He's the only person that's ever posted on a basketball forum with any kind of actual basketball playing experience. He can also dunk a basketball, even on a 10 foot hoop! He once was allowed to volunteer at Buzz's basketball camps by holding kids' hands as they crossed 17th and Wisconsin to ensure they made it safely back and forth between the Al and the Rec Center.
Obviously, given all these incredible credentials and the unbelievable athleticism he has, he has forgotten more than Wojo and every member on Scoop combined will ever know about basketball. When he speaks, simply bow to him and say, "You are, as always, right."
(What I'm saying is the guy is completely clueless and there's no need to argue with him. No matter how much evidence you will give him, he's always going to be "smarter" than you. No matter how many times he's told to move on from a topic or move on from the board, he'll continue to come back here and be unable to move on from those very few topics he can't get away from. Much like Chicos, the unhealthy inability to ever be wrong, admit they are wrong, move on when asked to do so, or stay away when asked to do so will never go away for him.)
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 05:20:31 PM
I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently. As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions. I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.
I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M. This pattern followed throughout the first half. We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game. No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise. I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half. We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.
Does it matter at all to you who the opponent is and how they match up relative to the zone?
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 05:20:31 PM
I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently. As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions. I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.
I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M. This pattern followed throughout the first half. We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game. No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise. I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half. We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.
I guess this is where we'll agree to disagree. I believe that in an ideal situation, we would have at least three different defenses and two different presses that we can use to disrupt the rhythm of the other team. With our poor defense (both mtm and zone) we need to do everything we can to reduce the amount of time that the other team can run real offense. If we start in our 3/4 court press, that usually burns about 7 or 8 seconds. Then if we fall back into a look that is different, the other teams point guard is going to spend 2-3 seconds talking with their coach. Then teams usually just swing the ball around the perimeter for 10-15 seconds without really attacking, just to see how the zone reacts. That's 20-25 seconds where we're not getting burned. If we only have to defend for 5-10 seconds, our defense is exponentially better. If we can do that with 2-3 different looks, per game, with each look getting 2 stops before the other team figures it out. That's 6 possessions per game, which would have resulted in at least 4 more wins this year.
Obviously the scenario above is an ideal situation, but if you have a 2-3, 3-2, 1-3-1, maybe something else a little obscure that certainly won't work for more than a hand full of possessions, but forces other teams to work harder for shots, you will have a halfway decent defense. Our problem is that we give up too many easy looks (that lay-up line you like referencing). All that said, you need a halfway decent defense that you run most of the time, where everybody knows their responsibilities, to go to when you need a stop in end of game situations, which we currently don't have. You can hide the fact that you don't have a good single type of defense, by having multiple not terrible defenses. If the zone was not terrible vs GU, I would have been fully in support of running more of it. The mtm was terrible against CU, we switched, the zone was bad against GU, we switched.
As for Cain, I would love it if he could play 30+ mpg. I just don't think he is there yet. He is good at defending in the zone, but it limited offensively. He can hit the 3 at a good clip, but only if someone finds him when he's wide open, and has a chance to set his feet. He as shown flashes of being a good driver, and I think that 9 months and 15 lbs from now he will be, but the strength and handles just aren't there yet. I think Cain will be the best player of our current Freshman class by the time they graduate, but expecting that much from him is a little premature IMO.
Everyone references a 3-2. While I understand the theoretical application, please cite examples of D1 teams running a 3-2 zone. In all seriousness, I want to watch video and try to incorporate it into my coaching.
Quote from: tower912 on February 27, 2018, 06:30:02 PM
Everyone references a 3-2. While I understand the theoretical application, please cite examples of D1 teams running a 3-2 zone. In all seriousness, I want to watch video and try to incorporate it into my coaching.
Dr. Tom Davis ran the 3-2 matchup zone.
Baylor runs a bunch of different looks out of a zone.
I think their base is a 1-3-1 but there are times they morph out of it into a 3-2 for a handful of possessions.
I understand the 3-2 and 1-2-2 variations of the zone. From everything I have ever read, the 3-2 is weak against 3's from the top of the key and corners as well as dribble penetration. So, Anim at the top of the key, Markus and Rowsey on the wings, Matt and Sam down low. Skip pass to the corner on Heldt's side, Heldt closing out on a shooter who can shoot the 3 if he is a step late, leaving no size under the basket, or drive by him if he closes out wrong, leaving, wait for it, no size under the basket. Or Heldt staying home and one of the midgets being responsible for an entire side of the court. IMO, this is why it is not commonly used at the D1 level. Sorry, but I am not feeling it. At the end of the day, I do not think there is a defense that will cover up the individual defensive weaknesses of playing Markus and Andrew together. And the alternative is to take minutes away from 20 ppg scorers and giving them to a pair of inconsistent freshmen. In the end, no truly good options.
I haven't watched much of Baylor this year, but they used to run a lot of the "Amoeba Zone."
http://www.coachesclipboard.net/AmoebaDefense.html
Drew picked it up from Southern Utah when they were in the same conference as Valpo.
Requiring long, quick defenders.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 27, 2018, 05:51:39 PM
Guys, Ners was an All North Woods Conference performer for Minoqua High School. He's the only person that's ever posted on a basketball forum with any kind of actual basketball playing experience. He can also dunk a basketball, even on a 10 foot hoop! He once was allowed to volunteer at Buzz's basketball camps by holding kids' hands as they crossed 17th and Wisconsin to ensure they made it safely back and forth between the Al and the Rec Center.
Obviously, given all these incredible credentials and the unbelievable athleticism he has, he has forgotten more than Wojo and every member on Scoop combined will ever know about basketball. When he speaks, simply bow to him and say, "You are, as always, right."
(What I'm saying is the guy is completely clueless and there's no need to argue with him. No matter how much evidence you will give him, he's always going to be "smarter" than you. No matter how many times he's told to move on from a topic or move on from the board, he'll continue to come back here and be unable to move on from those very few topics he can't get away from. Much like Chicos, the unhealthy inability to ever be wrong, admit they are wrong, move on when asked to do so, or stay away when asked to do so will never go away for him.)
Sounds like a bad case of projection. You should re-read what you post here. You come off every bit the sanctimonious type, you espouse me to be.
Meanwhile, your boy has yet to win 3 Big East games in a row, through 4 seasons as coach at MU. I understand you bowed at the altar early, and have major wood for the Woj, and thus to have to come here and try to defend the very, very mediocre results thus far, is challenging. Now, I could go through and search your previous posts where you touted this year being our major breakthrough year - but, I won't be cheesy and out you and that idiocy you posted 3 years ago.
That all aside, I hope Wojo pulls through next year, and advances the program to consistent NCAA appearances. He's certainly shown to do well recruiting, but the in-game coaching ceiling likely will be a C.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 02:00:47 PM
I'm still waiting for you to provide PPP in zone versus M2M for Big East play TAMU. And why would it matter if our base defense was zone from the beginning? Doing something over and over and over (repetition/consistency) is of absolutely no value, right?
P.S. - WE didn't win last night because our defense was even satisfactory. We won, because, just as it always requires, we were elite shooting the basketball. Our M2M last night was awful, just as it always is.
Like I told you before, Synergy doesn't have a setting for conference play. I can't even look at individual games and tell you PPP by man or by zone. I can tell you how many times a team scored against the zone and how many times they didn't....but it doesn't tell me how much they scored in those possessions. I can't tell if they scored three pointers, 2 pointers, or got fouled and made 1/2 FTs.
What I can tell you is that for the season Marquette is allowing .95 ppp in man defense and 1.06 in zone defense. I can also tell you that Creighton was the only game where Marquette allowed a higher % of scoring possessions in man than in zone in conference play. Which supports the hypothesis that Wojo is willing to try zone and will stick with it when its working and will move away from it when its not.
And yes consistency and practice over the course of a year absolutely makes a team better at a defense. Absolutely. But over the course of 20 minutes in a basketball game? Hell no.
Our M2M was awful last night. As it always is. The zone was worse. Like it has been every game other than Creighton. We won last night because of our offense....like we've won 95% of our games. That's part of our identity this season. Do I wish I wasn't? Hell yes! But its who we are this year. I don't really give a rip how we win as long as we win. This is what happens when two of your best three players are awful sub 6 foot defenders.
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 08:17:03 PM
Sounds like a bad case of projection. You should re-read what you post here. You come off every bit the sanctimonious type, you espouse me to be.
Meanwhile, your boy has yet to win 3 Big East games in a row, through 4 seasons as coach at MU. I understand you bowed at the altar early, and have major wood for the Woj, and thus to have to come here and try to defend the very, very mediocre results thus far, is challenging. Now, I could go through and search your previous posts where you touted this year being our major breakthrough year - but, I won't be cheesy and out you and that idiocy you posted 3 years ago.
That all aside, I hope Wojo pulls through next year, and advances the program to consistent NCAA appearances. He's certainly shown to do well recruiting, but the in-game coaching ceiling likely will be a C.
You are right Ners. Now before you get a chance to put me on a poster like you have so many other poor north woods souls, please allow me to step to the side!
Quote from: Floorslapper on February 27, 2018, 05:20:31 PM
I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently. As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions. I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.
I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M. This pattern followed throughout the first half. We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game. No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise. I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half. We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.
This is why Wojo is the coach and you're not. Wojo can see something isn't working after a few possessions. You need an entire half in order to know for sure!