I’m not calling for his head

[forgetful]

4 possessions. Relevant sample size on a game of 70 possessions. Got it. First sign of adversity, go back to that stellar M2M that has worked wonders all year leading us to a 10th place D rating in conference play, while also yielding the worst FT Rate.

No sense in debating against the stalwart basketball gurus here that bow at the altar of Wojo.

Makes BRITTLIANT sense to defend M2M when you are undersized/outathleticed at every position as it relates to strength, length, quickness. 

Look - Im as happy that we beat the Number 100 ranked team in OT last night, while shooting 58% from the 3pt line on 18 makes. That’s awesome. It also is absolutely NO formula for ever being a Top 25 team.

No one said 4 possessions was a relevant sample size for how the statistics would play out.  It was a relevant sample size to realize our zone was not going to work against Georgetown.

If he had stuck with it for 10 more possessions we would have lost, and everyone on here would have been saying Wojo sucks, he doesn't make in game adjustments.

He did exactly that in this game.  The zone was awful.  Govan/Derrickson were eating us alive in the middle, and/or when we collapse on them kicking out to wide open shooters.  It was bad against Creighton too, they just missed their wide open 3's (they won't do that again), and their coach didn't understand to put a guy who can hit a 12 footer in the middle of the zone.  That won't happen again either.

If we come out in a 2-3 zone, and play it the majority of the game against Creighton, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose by 15+.  They will put Hegner or Epperson into the middle of the zone and they will either hit the 12-footer, or we will be forced to guard it, and the bigs will dump it down between each other and light us up (that is what Georgetown was doing with Govan/Derrickson).  They will not put Harrell in the middle again for us to exploit. 

[Its DJOver]

Sorry. If you can’t understand the thought process I outlined above, we will agree to disagree.

I don’t put stock in a 4 possession sample size. I want Wojo to roll with a zone exclusively, with Cain playing big minutes. 

The physical/athletic challenge we face is mitigated by a zone defense. M2M exposes our warts far more and that is why it’s been a steady progression of the opposition to the FT Line.

I understand that the small sample size leads to somewhat misleading stats, but GU looked like they knew exactly how to attack it.  Further, their two best players are post players, and the one area where Matt is above average in mtm defensively is straight up post D.  This is why they started posting up whichever one Sam was guarding, that's when we started doubling which had some success.  I understand that both Govan and Derrickson shoot the 3 well for bigs, but the threes that they were hitting were contested, not just the wide open 3s we usually give up.  If they're both hitting contested 3s I don't think a zone would slow them down.

Cain is a good defender in the zone, however GU was going high low with two post players and that is extremely effective against a 2-3,  that's why the Davante Otule line-up was extremely successful against Cuse, but didn't really work against anyone else.  We'll never know if we could have won playing more zone, but based on the results, with an admitted small sample size, going away from the zone was the right move. 

I still think we'll need it again this season, but I can't stress enough how important match-ups are when determining to run with mtm or zone.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

It sure is nice having Ners back to endlessly re-argue every point...again, and again, and again, and again....

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It sure is nice having Ners back to endlessly re-argue every point...again, and again, and again, and again....

I'm not saying it is not annoying, but it takes more than one to argue.

[Its DJOver]

I'm not saying it is not annoying, but it takes more than one to argue.

Apologies.  If you longer wish to read discussions about MU basketball please visit one of the other wonderful websites that the internet has to offer.

[jesmu84]

4 possessions. Relevant sample size on a game of 70 possessions. Got it. First sign of adversity, go back to that stellar M2M that has worked wonders all year leading us to a 10th place D rating in conference play, while also yielding the worst FT Rate.

No sense in debating against the stalwart basketball gurus here that bow at the altar of Wojo.

Makes BRITTLIANT sense to defend M2M when you are undersized/outathleticed at every position as it relates to strength, length, quickness. 

Look - Im as happy that we beat the Number 100 ranked team in OT last night, while shooting 58% from the 3pt line on 18 makes. That’s awesome. It also is absolutely NO formula for ever being a Top 25 team.

We beat a ranked Seton Hall using man. So...

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Apologies.  If you longer wish to read discussions about MU basketball please visit one of the other wonderful websites that the internet has to offer.

I am missing why you quoted me?  I was just pointing out that you can't blame one person alone for an argument.

[Its DJOver]

I am missing why you quoted me?  I was just pointing out that you can't blame one person alone for an argument.

Given Ners reputation I thought that you were implying that everyone should just ignore him and let him piss and moan until he gets tired and leaves. If this was not your intention then I offer a sincere apology.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Given Ners reputation I thought that you were implying that everyone should just ignore him and let himself piss and moan until he gets tired and leaves. If this was not your intention then I offer a sincere apology.

Except he NEVER gets tired of pissing and moaning and continually rearguing the same point, and he'll never leave until forcibly made to do so.  Which happens, multiple times, on every site he participates in.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I really don't understand your thought process.  Everyone knows that our MTM is bad. No one is saying otherwise.  People have been saying play more zone.  People have been criticizing Wojo for not being able to make adjustments in game.  He made the move to zone, it didn't work, he moved back, it did work. Pretty simple.  How long would you have stuck with zone if we continued to give up 2.5ppp?  It seems like you would be happier if we had played more zone and lost.  Also the is no such thing as a bad conference road win.

It's the same thought process he had about Magic Dawson. No one thought Derrick Wilson was a good PG. We just thought he was better than John Dawson. No one thinks our M2M is good,  it's just better than our zone. But because both had one game where it worked really well,  Ners has decided it's the answer and doing anything else means the coach is an idiot.

Now I could buy an argument where one could say that zone should have been our base defense from the beginning and that we would be better at defense now if that had happened... Might be true... But right now our M2M is better than our zone

[Floorslapper]

No one said 4 possessions was a relevant sample size for how the statistics would play out.  It was a relevant sample size to realize our zone was not going to work against Georgetown.

If he had stuck with it for 10 more possessions we would have lost, and everyone on here would have been saying Wojo sucks, he doesn't make in game adjustments.

He did exactly that in this game.  The zone was awful.  Govan/Derrickson were eating us alive in the middle, and/or when we collapse on them kicking out to wide open shooters.  It was bad against Creighton too, they just missed their wide open 3's (they won't do that again), and their coach didn't understand to put a guy who can hit a 12 footer in the middle of the zone.  That won't happen again either.

If we come out in a 2-3 zone, and play it the majority of the game against Creighton, I wouldn't be surprised if we lose by 15+.  They will put Hegner or Epperson into the middle of the zone and they will either hit the 12-footer, or we will be forced to guard it, and the bigs will dump it down between each other and light us up (that is what Georgetown was doing with Govan/Derrickson).  They will not put Harrell in the middle again for us to exploit.

Will be fun to see how things play out against Creighton.  Wojo will have every option at his disposal.

I like how you are Nostradamus and can project that if we played 10 possessions of zone we would have lost because the irrelevant sample size of 4 possessions was proof positive.

Unfortunate that the same handful of folks here can't handle a dissenting opinion and revert back to their usual par for the course tactic:  If you can't attack the argument, attack the poster.

It's the same thought process he had about Magic Dawson. No one thought Derrick Wilson was a good PG. We just thought he was better than John Dawson. No one thinks our M2M is good,  it's just better than our zone. But because both had one game where it worked really well,  Ners has decided it's the answer and doing anything else means the coach is an idiot.

Now I could buy an argument where one could say that zone should have been our base defense from the beginning and that we would be better at defense now if that had happened... Might be true... But right now our M2M is better than our zone

WE went 4-14 in the Big East with Wojo's roster decision-making year 1.  We've yet to win 3 conference games in a row with Wojo as head coach, now in Year 4 of the regime.  I'd say there is far more evidence toward Wojo not having "it," than there is that he has "it."  Hopefully Wojo gets it figured out in Year 5.  Don't want another "rebuild."

I'm still waiting for you to provide PPP in zone versus M2M for Big East play TAMU.  And why would it matter if our base defense was zone from the beginning?  Doing something over and over and over (repetition/consistency) is of absolutely no value, right? 

P.S. - WE didn't win last night because our defense was even satisfactory.  We won, because, just as it always requires, we were elite shooting the basketball.  Our M2M last night was awful, just as it always is.

[Its DJOver]

It's the same thought process he had about Magic Dawson. No one thought Derrick Wilson was a good PG. We just thought he was better than John Dawson. No one thinks our M2M is good,  it's just better than our zone. But because both had one game where it worked really well,  Ners has decided it's the answer and doing anything else means the coach is an idiot.

Now I could buy an argument where one could say that zone should have been our base defense from the beginning and that we would be better at defense now if that had happened... Might be true... But right now our M2M is better than our zone

When you say beginning, are you referring to the beginning of the game, season, or Wojos tenure?  Because after the 1st year where our offensive was so bad outside of two players so we couldn't even evaluate our D properly, we have been pretty consistently bad on D.  If Wojo had switched to almost exclusively zone in Hanks year, do you think we're better defensively at this point? 

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Unfortunate that the same handful of folks here can't handle a dissenting opinion and revert back to their usual par for the course tactic:  If you can't attack the argument, attack the poster.

Yes, yes, it is everyone else's fault.

Questions for you:
How many times have you been banned from this site?
How many times have you been banned from Dodd's site?
How many times have you been banned from other sites?
What is the common element in the three items above?

[Floorslapper]

Yes, yes, it is everyone else's fault.

Questions for you:
How many times have you been banned from this site?
How many times have you been banned from Dodd's site?
How many times have you been banned from other sites?
What is the common element in the three items above?

Believe about 4 times from here and Dodds site.

Common denominator, a handful of soft, sensitive personality types, that cannot handle a dissenting opinion than their own (which is generally critical of Wojo,) and as a result snowflake their way to the moderator asking for removal.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Believe about 4 times from here and Dodds site.

Common denominator, a handful of soft, sensitive personality types, that cannot handle a dissenting opinion than their own (which is generally critical of Wojo,) and as a result snowflake their way to the moderator asking for removal.

Oohhhhhh, sorry, I didn't realize.  You're being persecuted?  Why didn't you say so? 

Thoughts and prayers.

[Its DJOver]

Serious question for you slapper.  You seem pretty well dug in that zone is the answer on D.  As pointed out we only played 4 possessions of zone yesterday, but gave up 10 points (2.5ppp).  How many possessions giving up 2.5 ppp would it have taken to convince you otherwise?  If we had played the entire half and given up 50?  The entire game giving up 100?  If a team continues to torch the zone, but we don't have any foul trouble (because of the zone), would you ever make the switch to man just for the sake of throwing a new look at them? 

Over more possessions the 2.5ppp would have had to drop, just because that's pretty ridiculous, but if we had only gotten it down to 1.7-1.5, still awful, but better than 2.5, would you still declare the zone a success, or would you still try to shift the blame to Wojo by saying that he should have played Cain more?  Just trying to figure out where the line is? 

[BM1090]

Serious question for you slapper.  You seem pretty well dug in that zone is the answer on D.  As pointed out we only played 4 possessions of zone yesterday, but gave up 10 points (2.5ppp).  How many possessions giving up 2.5 ppp would it have taken to convince you otherwise?  If we had played the entire half and given up 50?  The entire game giving up 100?  If a team continues to torch the zone, but we don't have any foul trouble (because of the zone), would you ever make the switch to man just for the sake of throwing a new look at them? 

Over more possessions the 2.5ppp would have had to drop, just because that's pretty ridiculous, but if we had only gotten it down to 1.7-1.5, still awful, but better than 2.5, would you still declare the zone a success, or would you still try to shift the blame to Wojo by saying that he should have played Cain more?  Just trying to figure out where the line is?

And also, on the first paragraph. Knowing yesterday was a must win game, how long would you have stuck with the zone? 5 consecutive miserable possessions in a must win game is more than enough of a sample size for me to decide it was time to switch away from it.

[GGGG]

If FTs no matta, then why does it matta to get to the FT Line and since percentage doesn't matta you can miss them all.  It's a dumb argument.  Period. 

No you just either don't get what JB is saying, or you are just trying to argue again.

[GGGG]

Believe about 4 times from here and Dodds site.

Common denominator, a handful of soft, sensitive personality types, that cannot handle a dissenting opinion than their own (which is generally critical of Wojo,) and as a result snowflake their way to the moderator asking for removal.

[Floorslapper]

Serious question for you slapper.  You seem pretty well dug in that zone is the answer on D.  As pointed out we only played 4 possessions of zone yesterday, but gave up 10 points (2.5ppp).  How many possessions giving up 2.5 ppp would it have taken to convince you otherwise?  If we had played the entire half and given up 50?  The entire game giving up 100?  If a team continues to torch the zone, but we don't have any foul trouble (because of the zone), would you ever make the switch to man just for the sake of throwing a new look at them? 

Over more possessions the 2.5ppp would have had to drop, just because that's pretty ridiculous, but if we had only gotten it down to 1.7-1.5, still awful, but better than 2.5, would you still declare the zone a success, or would you still try to shift the blame to Wojo by saying that he should have played Cain more?  Just trying to figure out where the line is?

I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently.  As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions.  I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.

I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M.  This pattern followed throughout the first half.  We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game.  No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise.  I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half.   We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.

[wadesworld]

Guys, Ners was an All North Woods Conference performer for Minoqua High School.  He's the only person that's ever posted on a basketball forum with any kind of actual basketball playing experience.  He can also dunk a basketball, even on a 10 foot hoop!  He once was allowed to volunteer at Buzz's basketball camps by holding kids' hands as they crossed 17th and Wisconsin to ensure they made it safely back and forth between the Al and the Rec Center.

Obviously, given all these incredible credentials and the unbelievable athleticism he has, he has forgotten more than Wojo and every member on Scoop combined will ever know about basketball.  When he speaks, simply bow to him and say, "You are, as always, right."

(What I'm saying is the guy is completely clueless and there's no need to argue with him.  No matter how much evidence you will give him, he's always going to be "smarter" than you.  No matter how many times he's told to move on from a topic or move on from the board, he'll continue to come back here and be unable to move on from those very few topics he can't get away from.  Much like Chicos, the unhealthy inability to ever be wrong, admit they are wrong, move on when asked to do so, or stay away when asked to do so will never go away for him.)

[ATL MU Warrior]

I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently.  As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions.  I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.

I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M.  This pattern followed throughout the first half.  We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game.  No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise.  I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half.   We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.

Does it matter at all to you who the opponent is and how they match up relative to the zone?

[Its DJOver]

I'm simply not a fan of doing anything inconsistently.  As a result, I don't like the concept of sprinkling in a possession of zone approximately every 7 possessions.  I don't feel you get reliable results by doing anything at a ratio of 1:7.

I realize GTown scored against the zone in its first attempt, and as a result, Wojo chose to kneejerk and go back to M2M.  This pattern followed throughout the first half.  We have concrete evidence that we suck in M2M - especially with both Rowsey and Howard in the game.  No sane, objective person here would argue otherwise.  I simply would like to see Wojo give the zone a REAL chance (as in exclusively), as he did at Creighton, and see how the chips fall with Cain playing in the zone 16 minutes per half.   We have basically 60 minutes of data points on playing predominately zone (granted it was only about 65% against St. Johns), but we got MUCH better results than we've seen in M2M. The layup line at the basket, and excessive following and FTA were greatly reduced in those 60 minutes.

I guess this is where we'll agree to disagree.  I believe that in an ideal situation, we would have at least three different defenses and two different presses that we can use to disrupt the rhythm of the other team.  With our poor defense (both mtm and zone) we need to do everything we can to reduce the amount of time that the other team can run real offense.  If we start in our 3/4 court press, that usually burns about 7 or 8 seconds.  Then if we fall back into a look that is different, the other teams point guard is going to spend 2-3 seconds talking with their coach.  Then teams usually just swing the ball around the perimeter for 10-15 seconds without really attacking, just to see how the zone reacts.  That's 20-25 seconds where we're not getting burned.  If we only have to defend for 5-10 seconds, our defense is exponentially better.  If we can do that with 2-3 different looks, per game, with each look getting 2 stops before the other team figures it out.  That's 6 possessions per game, which would have resulted in at least 4 more wins this year. 

Obviously the scenario above is an ideal situation, but if you have a 2-3, 3-2, 1-3-1, maybe something else a little obscure that certainly won't work for more than a hand full of possessions, but forces other teams to work harder for shots, you will have a halfway decent defense.  Our problem is that we give up too many easy looks (that lay-up line you like referencing).  All that said, you need a halfway decent defense that you run most of the time, where everybody knows their responsibilities, to go to when you need a stop in end of game situations, which we currently don't have.  You can hide the fact that you don't have a good single type of defense, by having multiple not terrible defenses.  If the zone was not terrible vs GU, I would have been fully in support of running more of it.  The mtm was terrible against CU, we switched, the zone was bad against GU, we switched.

As for Cain, I would love it if he could play 30+ mpg.  I just don't think he is there yet.  He is good at defending in the zone, but it limited offensively.  He can hit the 3 at a good clip, but only if someone finds him when he's wide open, and has a chance to set his feet.  He as shown flashes of being a good driver, and I think that 9 months and 15 lbs from now he will be, but the strength and handles just aren't there yet.  I think Cain will be the best player of our current Freshman class by the time they graduate, but expecting that much from him is a little premature IMO.

[tower912]

Everyone references a 3-2.    While I understand the theoretical application, please cite examples of D1 teams running a 3-2 zone.     In all seriousness, I want to watch video and try to incorporate it into my coaching.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

Everyone references a 3-2.    While I understand the theoretical application, please cite examples of D1 teams running a 3-2 zone.     In all seriousness, I want to watch video and try to incorporate it into my coaching.

Dr. Tom Davis ran the 3-2 matchup zone.