I'm not going to write a tome or try to counter lots of Brew's well-made points. Instead I take issue with the premise.
1) The average reader/poster on this boarder is more more interested/engaged than the average MU fan. If there is a constituency of dissatisfied supporters here that certainly translated to a broader population of dissatisfied, or worse disinterested, supporters elsewhere. I'm not sure if any form MUBB follows this board, but if they do, having some sense of all dimensions of the pulse of their fanbase probably isn't the worst thing for their business model. Of course they take a holistic view but pretending dissatisfaction isn't there doesn't do the program any favors.
2) Complacency breeds mediocrity. The modal NCAA DI high major team makes the Tourney what, maybe once every 3 years on average? It's very easy to become a modal team.
3) The "old guard" here are, to a large extent, an echo chamber. Their consensus is that Wojo is leading the team in the right direction and that we should all respect the process. While that may ultimately be true, it ultimately might not. Having both viewpoints keeps us all on our toes.
4) This is a freakin' anonymous message board. For the most part the Wojo skeptics aren't even trolls. Almost every poster here wants success and the best for MU. There's just difference visions of what might bring that.
5) Starting a thread on "Whining" exhibits something I've seen a lot of from the "old guard" - patronizing and ad hominem attacks against those who aren't toeing the party line. Accepting that others might have a different view of a coach/program doesn't seem like something to get so worked up about.
So I say keep whining - it's healthy and it staves off settling for second best. Let's continue to demand more than the best for MUBB. Of course we aren't going to achieve it, but the goal should be win everyday. Cut down the nets every year. Until we go on a 89 game win streak or have 8 consecutive titles let's aspire to more!
I think incessant whining on a message board reveals character. (see signature)
Well, thanks for validating my point on ad hominems.
I only kept the "Whine" to mirror the other thread.
How about "Demand Excellence"? (see signature)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/aMZzPnpf5DIT6/giphy.gif)
I agree with MU03's gif....
That being said, I say keep things fact based and try not to to attack anyone who has an opinion personally. Feels like that has been increasing lately...
Criticizing people for being "patronizing" and referring to those same people as "the old guard" is too delicious to be run-of-the-mill irony.
As for your point ...
Yep, it's a free country (for now). Whine away.
It's also free for those who wish to tell whiners to stop whining.
Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2017, 08:54:45 AM
.
How about "Demand Excellence"? (see signature)
I think it is more accurate to read "Demand Excellence NOW"
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 08:50:14 AM
I think incessant whining on a message board reveals character. (see signature)
Incessant whining reveals childish behavior and relatedly, the need for a nap.
To me, there's a significant difference between incessant or absurd whining vs. having logical concerns or being constructively critical. To me, there sure seems to be a lot more of the former, especially after a disheartening loss.
I'm as frustrated as any with our tourney drought and that the games we gave away to Pitt and Seton Hall will come back to bite us. And while I do think improvements are necessary in terms of coaching, I think the recruiting has been above average to excellent, and that's where it starts.
Wojo inherited a sh*t show of a roster and to already expect a top 25 team is just not realistic, IMO.
1) I would say Scoopers don't reflect the opinions of the average Marquette fan.
2) We made it 8 straight years (2006-2013) so we can miss the next 21 years and maintain your average.
3) I think we are on the right track but I agree with you. It helps to look at different perspectives.
4) I think a good portion of the Wojo skeptics are trolls seeing as they only come out after losses.
5) Personally, I don't care if someone has a different opinion. It's just that the opinions are often very radical. After a win the "where are we ranked" thread comes out. After a loss it's "fire Wojo"! Criticisms of Wojo are more than reasonable, but calling for his head after every loss is a bit much. Just as is planning our trip to the Final Four.
This is like giving candy to your toddler mid-temper tantrum. But I suppose that's what parenting is nowadays.
While I am clearly in the "Old Guard" camp I don't attack anybody. Additionally I prefer to think of my posts as not whining. I think they fall more into the category of incessant bitching about MU's lack of toughness. Maybe we need need to delineate threads as being whine free, and safe zone if you will. This Froling kid better be tough. G'day all.
Lame thread.
Quote from: MU82 on January 11, 2017, 08:59:58 AM
Criticizing people for being "patronizing" and referring to those same people as "the old guard" is too delicious to be run-of-the-mill irony.
As for your point ...
Yep, it's a free country (for now). Whine away.
It's also free for those who wish to tell whiners to stop whining.
Voluminous posters?
Quote from: fjm on January 11, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Lame thread.
Naw, this thread is just a clear indication we're getting a jump on off-season Scoop season.
The response to this thread is just indicative.
All I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that a bit of grumbling from the rank and file keeps everyone sharp. The only reason I'm "encouraging" that is because we have an 11 page thread dedicated to disparaging discontent.
Other than Tower (who seems to think it's a major accomplishment for MU just to put 5 bodies on the floor) has anyone really had their expectations exceeded in the last 3 years?
I'm no millennial, but I teach them at the university level. The grading of Wojo by many of the mainstays on this board seems to be on their scale - he's trying hard and is generally pointed in the right direction so that should be a B+. I would say given the situation he walked into, overall (combining recruiting, player development, game prep, and game coaching), Wojo has done an average job. On my scale that's a C. You all may be content with C but I expect a bit more from a basketball program that is resourced in the top 25 across the country.
Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2017, 09:27:19 AM
The response to this thread is just indicative.
All I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that a bit of grumbling from the rank and file keeps everyone sharp. The only reason I'm "encouraging" that is because we have an 11 page thread dedicated to disparaging discontent.
Other than Tower (who seems to think it's a major accomplishment for MU just to put 5 bodies on the floor) has anyone really had their expectations exceeded in the last 3 years?
I'm no millennial, but I teach them at the university level. The grading of Wojo by many of the mainstays on this board seems to be on their scale - he's trying hard and is generally pointed in the right direction so that should be a B+. I would say given the situation he walked into, overall (combining recruiting, player development, game prep, and game coaching), Wojo has done an average job. On my scale that's a C. You all may be content with C but I expect a bit more from a basketball program that is resourced in the top 25 across the country.
(http://cdn2.teen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/large1.gif)
At the very best I would Wojo a C grade at this point. As always, I would give MU admin a D for a grade.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 11, 2017, 09:02:21 AM
Wojo inherited a sh*t show of a roster and to already expect a top 25 team is just not realistic, IMO.
Ridiculous. The guy we should have had, Shaka Smart, already has Texas on the verge of the national title!
Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2017, 09:27:19 AM
The response to this thread is just indicative.
All I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that a bit of grumbling from the rank and file keeps everyone sharp. The only reason I'm "encouraging" that is because we have an 11 page thread dedicated to disparaging discontent.
Other than Tower (who seems to think it's a major accomplishment for MU just to put 5 bodies on the floor) has anyone really had their expectations exceeded in the last 3 years?
I'm no millennial, but I teach them at the university level. The grading of Wojo by many of the mainstays on this board seems to be on their scale - he's trying hard and is generally pointed in the right direction so that should be a B+. I would say given the situation he walked into, overall (combining recruiting, player development, game prep, and game coaching), Wojo has done an average job. On my scale that's a C. You all may be content with C but I expect a bit more from a basketball program that is resourced in the top 25 across the country.
1SE, I have looked at the talent on hand, looked at the schedule, and attempted to make my expectations objectively and dispassionately. Wojo's first year was exactly what I expected based on MU's roster. Last year, Henry was better than I expected and what I had analyzed as a 17 win team turned into a 20 win team. My expectations for this team was that it would be a better team that could end up with a worse record due to a potentially fatal lack of size that was going to take some really good coaching to overcome. I predicted the defensive struggles and the cause of them 7 months ago.
I would argue that I have been right all 3 years in my preseason assessments of Wojo's teams. This isn't low expectations. These are realistic expectations. I have also said repeatedly that I am not yet completely sold on Wojo as I have yet to see him produce the alchemy/voodoo/magic that makes a team better than the sum of its parts. I have said that his long term success is predicated upon his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. But he can recruit and I can see what he is trying to do.
So I choose to be patient. I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to. It is something that I revel in when it occurs. And therefore, unless I see a complete disintegration of the team, signs that Wojo has lost the program, or a complete backslide for no obvious reason (obvious reasons being injuries, unforeseen transfers with no replacement in place. I view those as reasons, not excuses) I don't feel the need to lose my mind when the team loses or an individual player isn't playing well. I see progress. I see good young players. I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place. I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected. I don't do whining when I don't get my needs for instant gratification met. So we differ. Keep challenging.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 09:44:04 AM
1SE, I have looked at the talent on hand, looked at the schedule, and attempted to make my expectations objectively and dispassionately. Wojo's first year was exactly what I expected based on MU's roster. Last year, Henry was better than I expected and what I had analyzed as a 17 win team turned into a 20 win team. My expectations for this team was that it would be a better team that could end up with a worse record due to a potentially fatal lack of size that was going to take some really good coaching to overcome. I predicted the defensive struggles and the cause of them 7 months ago.
I would argue that I have been right all 3 years in my preseason assessments of Wojo's teams. This isn't low expectations. These are realistic expectations. I have also said repeatedly that I am not yet completely sold on Wojo as I have yet to see him produce the alchemy/voodoo/magic that makes a team better than the sum of its parts. I have said that his long term success is predicated upon his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. But he can recruit and I can see what he is trying to do.
So I choose to be patient. I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to. It is something that I revel in when it occurs. And therefore, unless I see a complete disintegration of the team, signs that Wojo has lost the program, or a complete backslide for no obvious reason (obvious reasons being injuries, unforeseen transfers with no replacement in place. I view those as reasons, not excuses) I don't feel the need to lose my mind when the team loses or an individual player isn't playing well. I see progress. I see good young players. I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place. I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected. I don't do whining when I don't get my needs for instant gratification met. So we differ. Keep challenging.
This is an extremely objective, even-handed, mature analysis. At the risk of embarrassing you with praise, it should be the template for all others. Seriously, well done my friend.
Quote from: MU82 on January 11, 2017, 09:52:46 AM
This is an extremely objective, even-handed, mature analysis. At the risk of embarrassing you with praise, it should be the template for all others. Seriously, well done my friend.
It ignores some very apparent systemic problems with the program. IE defense and toughness. Also a rather large roster turnover still going on in year 3.
This is also factual and even handed.
tomato, tomato...
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 11, 2017, 10:15:20 AM
It ignores some very apparent systemic problems with the program. IE defense and toughness. Also a rather large roster turnover still going on in year 3.
This is also factual and even handed.
tomato, tomato...
No, they are factored into my expectations. In fact, I specifically stated that I predicted this team's defensive shortcomings 7 months ago.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 10:19:40 AM
No, they are factored into my expectations. In fact, I specifically stated that I predicted this team's defensive shortcomings 7 months ago.
And that my MU friend is an opinion...
Its fine and valid and all. But its just an opinion.
Also, Im predicting defensive shortcomings next season. IMO these frosh and Frolling will be behind Fischer defensively, whom I believe is scapegoat for many on this board.
But Im not ok with it IMO.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 09:40:28 AM
At the very best I would Wojo a C grade at this point. As always, I would give MU admin a D for a grade.
Why? (Admin not wojo)
My expectations when Wojo was hired was tourney by year 3 and start of another streak of tournies by year 5. I'm not sure if we'll make the tourney this year or not. It's clearly in reach but there's a lot of work to be done. If we make it I'd say my expectations have been met. If we don't, I think we're behind but still on track for the five year goal.
TAMU
Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.
As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
TAMU
Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.
As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.
So what you are saying is the admin gets a d for hirng wojo?
Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time. I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program. The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 11, 2017, 10:15:20 AM
It ignores some very apparent systemic problems with the program. IE defense and toughness. Also a rather large roster turnover still going on in year 3.
This is also factual and even handed.
tomato, tomato...
Um, there is no direct, quantifiable evidence that there are systemic problems with defense or toughness.
I have concerns about Wojo's ability to coach/manage/strategize around defense, but what we've seen to date could be a direct result of roster/skill set mismatch to defensive strategy which resolves itself as Wojo gets more of his guys on the roster.
And toughness is some ethereal catch all that people use to justify a complaint about a result that they can't actually hang on something measurable. How do you measure toughness and show that MU is not as tough as years past.
Lastly, the roster turnover in the Wojo is no more than average for a coaching transition where the new coach comes in from outside of the program.
If you are going to insist on an evidence based evaluation, you should probably use...ya know....evidence.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AM
Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time. I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program. The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.
Considering your consistent moaning for the past many months, I'm unsure why you're here. It's the twilight of your ride and you should have a hobby that brings joy rather then pain. Move on.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AM
Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time. I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program. The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.
Pretty brutal.
If MU's admin is a D, what schools get A's, B's, or C's?
I take it you aren't grading on the curve. Are you one of those guys a couple years back who said that a Marquette coach only deserves an A if he wins the national championship?
Quote from: mu03eng on January 11, 2017, 10:51:09 AM
Um, there is no direct, quantifiable evidence that there are systemic problems with defense or toughness.
I have concerns about Wojo's ability to coach/manage/strategize around defense, but what we've seen to date could be a direct result of roster/skill set mismatch to defensive strategy which resolves itself as Wojo gets more of his guys on the roster.
And toughness is some ethereal catch all that people use to justify a complaint about a result that they can't actually hang on something measurable. How do you measure toughness and show that MU is not as tough as years past.
Lastly, the roster turnover in the Wojo is no more than average for a coaching transition where the new coach comes in from outside of the program.
If you are going to insist on an evidence based evaluation, you should probably use...ya know....evidence.
And you have not evidence for this either. The only evidence is that MUs defense is pretty bad. And that you dont see a lot of hustle plays going on for MU.
Ill give you credit you used "could be" careful choice of words there... Id sure hope by year 3 we would know for sure what MU team defense was really going to be about. As I said, systemic problems...
Ours are 'opinions', but what you write is 'facts.' Got it.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 11:24:32 AM
Ours are 'opinions', but what you write is 'facts.' Got it.
nope both are opinions but only one side is telling the other to shut up.
I'm not telling anyone to 'shut up'. I specifically told 1SE to keep challenging. Read. Don't assume. But don't get whiny when people disagree with your take.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 11, 2017, 10:51:42 AM
Considering your consistent moaning for the past many months, I'm unsure why you're here. It's the twilight of your ride and you should have a hobby that brings joy rather then pain. Move on.
Pretty uncalled for comment
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 11, 2017, 10:35:19 AM
My expectations when Wojo was hired was tourney by year 3 and start of another streak of tournies by year 5.
So, the tourney in year 3, no tourney in year 4, and a string of tourneys begin in year 5.
I admire the specificity of your expectations and you going out on a limb to publish them.
But just for grins what were those specifics based on?
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
TAMU
Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.
As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.
I get that this game isn't a marquee opponent, but given where MU stands right now and the tournament implications of the game tonight I'm surprised you don't have any interest. Obviously MU isn't as competitive as years past, but we knew this is where they would likely be when Wojo took over a few years back.
Golden Avalanche
Appreciate the sound advice and it will be followed. All I can say is that I hope everybody on here loves MU ball and the University as much as I do.
Warriorchick
No, I was not one of the guys saying a coach only gets an A if they win NC. Was one of the guys saying that I feared the program was going backwards and the direction of the admin regarding the program had changed.
MUeng03
I hope it just the Admin has no idea what it is doing vs. making a decision to become SLU. Sad thing is, we became SLU either way. I respect school enough to think they made the decision and not poor management.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 11, 2017, 10:24:39 AM
Also, Im predicting defensive shortcomings next season. IMO these frosh and Frolling will be behind Fischer defensively, whom I believe is scapegoat for many on this board.
In another thread, I have made essentially the same point. So our opinions actually are in sync here. I am concerned about any of next year's bigs being able to defend in space and/or having the offensive skill to be a stretch 4 in a 4 out/1 in system.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 11:49:11 AM
In another thread, I have made essentially the same point. So our opinions actually are in sync here. I am concerned about any of next year's bigs being able to defend in space and/or having the offensive skill to be a stretch 4 in a 4 out/1 in system.
OK, then I guess I differ in the fact that Im not ok with the team still struggling on D in year #4. I dont think that is a good thing or an acceptable thing.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 11:44:29 AM
MUeng03
I hope it just the Admin has no idea what it is doing vs. making a decision to become SLU. Sad thing is, we became SLU either way. I respect school enough to think they made the decision and not poor management.
If you honestly think we've turned into SLU from a basketball or school standpoint I'd argue that you don't know much about either thing.
I agree that there was mismanagement in the previous administration (IMO much more about arrogance/incompetence than deliberate action), but I am almost 100% satisfied that those issues have been corrected and that the program/administration is on the correct path.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on January 11, 2017, 11:00:36 AM
And you have not evidence for this either. The only evidence is that MUs defense is pretty bad. And that you dont see a lot of hustle plays going on for MU.
Ill give you credit you used "could be" careful choice of words there... Id sure hope by year 3 we would know for sure what MU team defense was really going to be about. As I said, systemic problems...
Our defense is not pretty bad....it is almost literally average within the KenPom rankings for Div 1. The defense is not good enough right now to secure us a tournament bid, but in the grand scheme it could be worse. Also, Year 1 and 2 of Wojo's tenure the defense ended up being roughly comparable in performance, Year 3 is the outlier. There isn't enough evidence that says Wojo can't coach defense, but there is a concern.
I think Year 4 really tells us whether or not we have a defensive issue or not because they will all be Wojo guys. The two biggest player issues on defense are not Wojo guys technically though obviously he re-recruited them: JjJ and Luke. The offense has significantly improved under Wojo, let's see what he can do with his guys in year 4 and 5 on the defensive end.
One big question here: What is it to be a fan?
I'm not sure there's a right answer. Take the example of long-suffering Cubs fans (at least prior to the 2016 season). To some, they represented everything being a sports fan is about: devotion, pride, optimism, community. Others saw a bunch of suckers who continued to hand over their money no matter how bad the on-field performance.
As a Marquette alum, college basketball fan and season ticket holder, I want the basketball program to succeed at the highest level. But I also recognize there is more to it than just winning for MU. The coaches and players represent the university here in Milwaukee, statewide, nationally and around the world. Marquette is first and foremost an educational institution — and will under no circumstances allow athletics to compromise that. The basketball program is also a key revenue generator.
So, Marquette wants the basketball program to help achieve university goals. Fans, to a large degree, just want the program to win. Those aren't mutually exclusive objectives —but they aren't identical, either.
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 11, 2017, 12:19:03 PM
As a Marquette alum, college basketball fan and season ticket holder, I want the basketball program to succeed at the highest level. But I also recognize there is more to it than just winning for MU. The coaches and players represent the university here in Milwaukee, statewide, nationally and around the world. Marquette is first and foremost an educational institution — and will under no circumstances allow athletics to compromise that. The basketball program is also a key revenue generator.
So, Marquette wants the basketball program to help achieve university goals. Fans, to a large degree, just want the program to win. Those aren't mutually exclusive objectives —but they aren't identical, either.
Here is what I believe. Back in 1996 Father Wild realized that for this university to be relevant it needed to find a way to re-connect alumni and get them to donate big bucks. His hypothesis was that the bball history and rabid fanbase with nostalgic thoughts of the 70's was the quickest way to get that engagement. Thus a big time investment in bball that started with firing Dean --> hiring Crean --> Big East --> Al. It was successful - hypothesis proved.
IMO Marquette needs bball to keep the national brand relevant & to keep things rolling with grads likely through the early 10's. So good bball = high engagement = funds to take the university forward on its mission.
I am not saying this model will work forever, but I believe if we walk away from it, it would be detrimental to the university.
So fan? Interested party? People getting re-connected with their fond MU memories? Its all the same in this instance.
Quote from: 1SE on January 11, 2017, 08:38:38 AM
So I say keep whining - it's healthy and it staves off settling for second best. Let's continue to demand more than the best for MUBB. Of course we aren't going to achieve it, but the goal should be win everyday. Cut down the nets every year. Until we go on a 89 game win streak or have 8 consecutive titles let's aspire to more!
That'd be a great speech if it was given to those whose actions actually play a part in the outcome.
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 11, 2017, 12:19:03 PM
One big question here: What is it to be a fan?
I'm not sure there's a right answer. Take the example of long-suffering Cubs fans (at least prior to the 2016 season). To some, they represented everything being a sports fan is about: devotion, pride, optimism, community. Others saw a bunch of suckers who continued to hand over their money no matter how bad the on-field performance.
As a Marquette alum, college basketball fan and season ticket holder, I want the basketball program to succeed at the highest level. But I also recognize there is more to it than just winning for MU. The coaches and players represent the university here in Milwaukee, statewide, nationally and around the world. Marquette is first and foremost an educational institution — and will under no circumstances allow athletics to compromise that. The basketball program is also a key revenue generator.
So, Marquette wants the basketball program to help achieve university goals. Fans, to a large degree, just want the program to win. Those aren't mutually exclusive objectives —but they aren't identical, either.
I always thought part of being a fan was being able to complain to each other about your team. Always following them(not without dissent) no matter their record year after year after year.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AMThe program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.
So...have you actually looked at what SLU looks like lately? They are currently 4-11 on the season, 0-3 in the A-10, their best win is Eastern Illinois, and since Wojo took over here, SLU is 26-53 (8-31) while Marquette is 43-38 (13-26) and in his worst season he won more games (13) than SLU has won any of the past three years.
Sorry, but this is just silly talk. It's parroting a false old narrative that doesn't reflect the actual performance or the trajectory the program has shown the past three years.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 11, 2017, 12:25:21 PMHere is what I believe. Back in 1996 Father Wild realized that for this university to be relevant it needed to find a way to re-connect alumni and get them to donate big bucks. His hypothesis was that the bball history and rabid fanbase with nostalgic thoughts of the 70's was the quickest way to get that engagement. Thus a big time investment in bball that started with firing Dean --> hiring Crean --> Big East --> Al. It was successful - hypothesis proved.
IMO Marquette needs bball to keep the national brand relevant & to keep things rolling with grads likely through the early 10's. So good bball = high engagement = funds to take the university forward on its mission.
I am not saying this model will work forever, but I believe if we walk away from it, it would be detrimental to the university.
So fan? Interested party? People getting re-connected with their fond MU memories? Its all the same in this instance.
All good points, and I agree with you for the most part. (Which is why I said they're not mutually exclusive objectives).
I do think it's important to remember that as a private Jesuit institution, Marquette is different from many other universities. For example, could you ever imagine Al McGuire or any MU head coach keeping his job after: 1) cheating on his wife in the middle of a restaurant and paying her to get an abortion; then 2) having an assistant coach arrange and pay for strippers and prostitutes to entertain players and recruits?Marquette believes in excellence. Winning on the basketball court is part of that commitment — but not at any cost.
There is a difference between whining and complaining.
In the military, troops have a God-given right to complain and they exercise it frequently.
Fans also have a God-given right to complain.
If fans do quite complaining it will either be because MU is good again or has remained bad to the point that these fans are indifferent. Indifference puts a program on the path to DePaul.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 09:44:04 AM
1SE, I have looked at the talent on hand, looked at the schedule, and attempted to make my expectations objectively and dispassionately. Wojo's first year was exactly what I expected based on MU's roster. Last year, Henry was better than I expected and what I had analyzed as a 17 win team turned into a 20 win team. My expectations for this team was that it would be a better team that could end up with a worse record due to a potentially fatal lack of size that was going to take some really good coaching to overcome. I predicted the defensive struggles and the cause of them 7 months ago.
I would argue that I have been right all 3 years in my preseason assessments of Wojo's teams. This isn't low expectations. These are realistic expectations. I have also said repeatedly that I am not yet completely sold on Wojo as I have yet to see him produce the alchemy/voodoo/magic that makes a team better than the sum of its parts. I have said that his long term success is predicated upon his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots. But he can recruit and I can see what he is trying to do.
So I choose to be patient. I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to. It is something that I revel in when it occurs. And therefore, unless I see a complete disintegration of the team, signs that Wojo has lost the program, or a complete backslide for no obvious reason (obvious reasons being injuries, unforeseen transfers with no replacement in place. I view those as reasons, not excuses) I don't feel the need to lose my mind when the team loses or an individual player isn't playing well. I see progress. I see good young players. I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place. I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected. I don't do whining when I don't get my needs for instant gratification met. So we differ. Keep challenging.
Sorry Tower, I was a bit flip. But my point with you on this is what it's always been. Just because the team has been performing to your expectations (and I admit they have) doesn't mean anything about the type of job Wojo is doing. It can mean one of two things:
1) Your expectations were realistic and Wojo is on track (which is what you think - but correct me if I'm wrong)
or
2) Your expectations were pessimistic and Wojo is meeting those expectations (i.e. your expectations were for underachievement and that's what is happening - this is what I think).
Basketball is a fickle game. We were an ill-timed bucket or two away from the NIT last year. We'll probably be an ill-timed bucket or two away from the NCAA this year. But that fickleness should be more or less random, and should win us as many games as it loses (I'm not quite sure how Pomery calculates the "luck" statistic - maybe we do have some multiple standard-deviation curse of unluckiness). But even then, unlucky (and lucky) things happen to all of us in our professions and we still have to suffer/enjoy the consequences.
My bottom line is that for a coach with a top (25?) salary and a program that is resourced in the top (15) we should have had more success in the last 3 years than we've had, maybe not much more, but marginally more. And I don't think it's "eye-roll gif" worthy of me to continue making that point on this message board. There is a lot of hyperbole about "fire Wojo" but if you look back through my record I've never advocated that - the position I've consistently held is that he has been (marginally) underperforming and if that continues there should start to be a bit of warmth in his seat.
We're in danger of becoming a "C" high-major - which is especially disappointing given that we were on the cusp of becoming an *almost* blue blood.
Wojo is not a dumpster fire (far from it). I'm sure Wojo will be a lifetime .660 coach and even see NCAA success from time to time. But he's not achieving at the level that I would expect for the amount of resources the University puts into the program. As someone who puts resources into the University, that is troubling to me. If we
can't attract the coaching talent to get us back to the *almost* blue blood level (and maybe we can't, maybe Wojo is the best we can do) then I hope the admin realizes that and scales back on the resources we put into the program. We don't need to spend like a top 15 team to achieve the success of a top-60.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 11, 2017, 12:58:42 PM
So...have you actually looked at what SLU looks like lately? They are currently 4-11 on the season, 0-3 in the A-10, their best win is Eastern Illinois, and since Wojo took over here, SLU is 26-53 (8-31) while Marquette is 43-38 (13-26) and in his worst season he won more games (13) than SLU has won any of the past three years.
Sorry, but this is just silly talk. It's parroting a false old narrative that doesn't reflect the actual performance or the trajectory the program has shown the past three years.
In Goose's defense, Marquette and SLU have exactly the same number of A-10 wins this year.
Quote from: Bocephys on January 11, 2017, 01:07:57 PM
In Goose's defense, Marquette and SLU have exactly the same number of A-10 wins this year.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2j1mye1.gif)
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
TAMU
Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.
As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.
We'll keep the light on for ya.
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 11, 2017, 01:00:58 PM
All good points, and I agree with you for the most part. (Which is why I said they're not mutually exclusive objectives).
I do think it's important to remember that as a private Jesuit institution, Marquette is different from many other universities. For example, could you ever imagine Al McGuire or any MU head coach keeping his job after: 1) cheating on his wife in the middle of a restaurant and paying her to get an abortion; then 2) having an assistant coach arrange and pay for strippers and prostitutes to entertain players and recruits?
Marquette believes in excellence. Winning on the basketball court is part of that commitment — but not at any cost.
I agree we need to abide by rules and stay true to the mission of our university. I am not in the business of line drawing though...
I would argue though that your two examples are moral failings not a commentary on winning. Rick Pitino doesnt need to do #2 to get good recruits and #1 just is a reflection of him. Our coaches have not been saints either (even though most people look like a saint compared to Rick).
At the end of the day this is big time basketball with a lot of money at stake - bad things will happen (to what degree I dont know). The important thing is not that an event occurs but how the administration reacts when it does happen (sweep under rug, prosecute, fire, what-ever) and have the proper controls and monitoring to ensure they are getting what they expect.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 11, 2017, 02:48:25 PMI would argue though that your two examples are moral failings not a commentary on winning. Rick Pitino doesnt need to do #2 to get good recruits and #1 just is a reflection of him. Our coaches have not been saints either (even though most people look like a saint compared to Rick).
Agreed. I think you can build a winning program and do it the right way without cheating. (From a purely basketball standpoint, that was the intent of the strippers and hookers: to gain an unfair advantage in recruiting.)
But while nobody's perfect, I do think there's a clear difference between coaches like Pitino or Calipari and Coach K or Izzo, for example. All 4 are brilliant students and teachers of the game. But none of these scandals have happened by accident.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 11, 2017, 02:48:25 PM
I agree we need to abide by rules and stay true to the mission of our university. I am not in the business of line drawing though...
I would argue though that your two examples are moral failings not a commentary on winning. Rick Pitino doesnt need to do #2 to get good recruits and #1 just is a reflection of him. Our coaches have not been saints either (even though most people look like a saint compared to Rick).
At the end of the day this is big time basketball with a lot of money at stake - bad things will happen (to what degree I dont know). The important thing is not that an event occurs but how the administration reacts when it does happen (sweep under rug, prosecute, fire, what-ever) and have the proper controls and monitoring to ensure they are getting what they expect.
I wonder if the families of the two girls in 2011 would agree with you.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 11:44:29 AM
Appreciate the sound advice and it will be followed. All I can say is that I hope everybody on here loves MU ball and the University as much as I do.
Yet you're turning down free tickets to a huge game because we're 10-5 instead of 12-3? Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 11, 2017, 03:10:24 PM
I wonder if the families of the two girls in 2011 would agree with you.
Don't mis-interpret my point Boxer -- i think that was handled terribly and they should be upset with the admin....they failed those women.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on January 11, 2017, 03:14:21 PM
Don't mis-interpret my point Boxer -- i think that was handled terribly and they should be upset with the admin....they failed those women.
Not misrepresenting you were the one who said this is big time basketball bad things happen. Your point comes across as someone who'd rather let those things happen and then handle it better in the aftermath
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 11, 2017, 03:18:58 PM
Not misrepresenting you were the one who said this is big time basketball bad things happen. Your point comes across as someone who'd rather let those things happen and then handle it better in the aftermath
No I implied that bad things will happen. Meaning there is no amount of control that you can put in place to ensure that kids won't do bad things and issues happen everywhere. This is true for MU's Gen Pop as well BTW.
I am sorry it came across as 'do your worst and we will react'
Jamil
If you think this is a huge game, I think I understand why the program is at the level it is currently at. Louisville/Kentucky is a huge game, UCLA/ Duke is a huge game, IU/Wisconsin is a really good game.....MU/SH is a game.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 03:26:39 PM
Jamil
If you think this is a huge game, I think I understand why the program is at the level it is currently at. Louisville/Kentucky is a huge game, UCLA/ Duke is a huge game, IU/Wisconsin is a really good game.....MU/SH is a game.
C'mon, this is ridiculous.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 03:26:39 PMJamil
If you think this is a huge game, I think I understand why the program is at the level it is currently at. Louisville/Kentucky is a huge game, UCLA/ Duke is a huge game, IU/Wisconsin is a really good game.....MU/SH is a game.
Every game in the Big East is a big game. The same holds true for every game in the ACC (or any other conference, for that matter). Duke can't afford to overlook Boston College or Georgia Tech any more than we can overlook DePaul or St. John's.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 09:44:04 AM
I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to.
Obviously a graduate from the Dukiet/Deane era.
I am entitled to a National Championship caliber program. The was part of the admissions package when I attended Marquette and was the first amendment to the 10 commandments adopted in 1966 by the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Al.
Of course I want a National Title. My life revolves around Marquette's success. Baseball and Packers season are just interludes until Marquette tip-off, which should be a Holy Day of Obligation for all Warriors. My wife still reminds me of when we were dating and I broke off a dinner to get to the Arena. And she hates basketball (and likely will not see eternal salvation because she dislikes Marquette basketball).
We will return and while I am sticking with the process, I want success as fast as we can get it!
one win... please, just one win..
I think games like tonight's are the most telling about where our program is right now. We're clearly not at the same level as Villanova. But if we can compete with — and win our fair share of games against — teams like Creighton, Butler, Providence and Seton Hall, then we should be in the mix for a top 5 conference finish and an NCAA bid.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 11, 2017, 04:17:38 PM
I am entitled to a National Championship caliber program. The was part of the admissions package when I attended Marquette and was the first amendment to the 10 commandments adopted in 1966 by the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Al.
Of course I want a National Title. My life revolves around Marquette's success. Baseball and Packers season are just interludes until Marquette tip-off, which should be a Holy Day of Obligation for all Warriors. My wife still reminds me of when we were dating and I broke off a dinner to get to the Arena. And she hates basketball (and likely will not see eternal salvation because she dislikes Marquette basketball).
Why is the second paragraph in teal?
I always felt that this year would be better than next year. Now, with Froling being eligible for the second semester of next year, I can start believing next year will be better. I think the team is better this year than last year, but still may not make the tournament. That I saw as a big problem, since I thought next year would be back tracking. Now I think we have an excellent shot to make the tournament next year, if we do not make it his year.
How do we feel about:
1) Whining?
2) Whining about whiners?
3) Whining about those who whine about whiners?
You get the idea. Do we really care? Let's win tonight!
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AM
Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time.
How have they played alums and fans as suckers?
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AM
I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program.
I'm not sure what this means. Do you want the admin to send out a memo to all stakeholders what they expect the outcome of each season to be at the start of every year? Or are you saying that the porgram hasn't lived up to expectations and isn't being held accountable?
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AM
The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.
Show your work. Because when I look at SLU I see a school ranked below us slightly in academics that is about to go bankrupt and has one of the bottom 100 basketball programs of Division 1. Marquette doesn't look anything like that to me. And the program has improved every year under wojo so we seem to be trending away from SLU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2017, 11:37:02 AM
So, the tourney in year 3, no tourney in year 4, and a string of tourneys begin in year 5.
I admire the specificity of your expectations and you going out on a limb to publish them.
But just for grins what were those specifics based on?
Looking at the roster I knew it wasn't a one year rebuild. I figured Wojo could get to the tourney once his first class had a year under their belt. I thought there might be a drop when Fischer graduated. We've always had trouble getting big men and thought Wojo might have the same issue. By year 5, Wojo would have a team full of his guys and time to set up a foundation for future success. Hardly scientific reasons but its what my thought process was.
Is it cool if I whine about the reffing in this SH game? Because whoof...
It's cool. We beat the refs and SH tonight. How does 'nova get their refs for home games and we get these fine lads? Must be my eyesight. JUst do not see what these refs see.
I'm wine-ing right now with a chilled Spanish Albarino
Quote from: wadesworld on January 11, 2017, 07:01:37 PM
Is it cool if I whine about the reffing in this SH game? Because whoof...
Amen
Fire Wojo. I can't believe he let Carrington bank in that 3. And isn't a little odd for a coach to actually tell his 83% FT shooter (Haani) to miss 2 straight? Wojo's gotta go.
And don't let any of those Wojo apologists say it's a sign of a mentally tough team to be able to win in OT without two starters and after being faced with other adversity. They won despite Wojo's mind games.
I've never sat in on the tournament selection committee. But I don't remember Jay Bilas ever mention a metric for "7 point leads blown with a minute left forcing the game into OT before getting the win."
It's about how many quality wins (and bad losses) you have. This was a quality win. Next game.
Quote from: tower912 on January 11, 2017, 09:44:04 AM
I see progress. I see good young players. I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place. I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected.
Do you see defensive progress over the last month? I do. It was good enough last night that not one person has complained it. Could we have said that a month ago?
I see improvement in consistent effort. Luke got the message after the Nova game. Other than JjJ doing his good play/bad play routine, did one player not bust his a$$ last night?
After blowing another late lead, did the coach and team pull it together and beat a bigger, stronger, more experienced team? And 3 refs? ;)
Could Matt Heldt give us what he did last night a year ago or even a month ago?
Are Markus or Sam any good?
Do we have a sophomore in a shooting slump that continues to make every other winning play?
Is there a boat load of size on the horizon?
I see progress. I see good young players. I see building blocks. There are going to be more bad games that are going to be frustrating and difficult to watch. I accept it. But I can see the road map.
Tower
On the surface you make some valid points, with one exception IMO. One outstanding freshman kept us is the game and without him we would have been in big trouble. No one can bust Wojo's balls on the two freshmen he brought in this year.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:35:30 AM
TAMU
Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.
As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.
I am truly sorry to read this. Like you, I grew up in the Al era and our expectation was a National Championship contender and an elite program every year. But I'd like to raise some questions about Marquette's commitment to basketball. They are:
1) We spend more money on college basketball than all but a few of the elite programs. Gone are the days of Quentin Quade, when Al reportedly was nickeled and dimed to the point he was irritated. Marquette has invested in a first-rate practice and training facility, plays in a first-rate arena and has a strong backing of the Alumni and Community at large.
2) We play in one of the best basketball conferences in the country. Our conference champion also has an NCAA championship banner and most of the teams in our conference have been to the Final Four at least once. Georgetown, Villanova and Marquette all have won it (I'm probably missing someone). We have a television contract because of it that is one of the most lucrative nationally.
3) Our Head Coach was acquired in an approach that was very similar to recent past successes. Specifically, both Tom Crean (yes, I know, he sucks) and Kevin O'Neill were first assistants at some of the best programs in the nation. So was Coach Wojo. Coach Wojo has proven to be an excellent recruiter and is growing as a bench coach.
4) If Henry had stayed this year -- as I believe he should have -- with the talent we have now, we would be a Top 10 team. Unfortunately, like the 1972 Jim Chones-led National Championship that never was or the 1975 Maurice Lucas-led National Championship that never was, Henry left. Yes, there's a gaping hole in our line-up because of it. But I'm impressed at what I am seeing and how Coach Wojo is recruiting. I'll admit we aren't there yet, just like you do Goose. But a young coach and a young team has to gel. That's coming! Stick around. You'll like it!
Candidly, what I am more afraid of is that we will gel and that Wojo will get us to the Sweet 16. Everything will look bright, our recruits are strong, our team is great and we're filling the Milwaukee Bucks Moneybag Centre when some Power 5 school comes looking for Wojo. THAT is the issue most of us ought to be worried about!
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 11, 2017, 10:25:11 PM
I've never sat in on the tournament selection committee. But I don't remember Jay Bilas ever mention a metric for "7 point leads blown with a minute left forcing the game into OT before getting the win."
It's about how many quality wins (and bad losses) you have. This was a quality win. Next game.
Listen, if we got knocked down a seed line because we lost to Kansas State in a secret scrimmage, surely an overtime win against a quality opponent is a negative feather in our cap.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 12, 2017, 03:23:09 PMCandidly, what I am more afraid of is that we will gel and that Wojo will get us to the Sweet 16. Everything will look bright, our recruits are strong, our team is great and we're filling the Milwaukee Bucks Moneybag Centre when some Power 5 school comes looking for Wojo. THAT is the issue most of us ought to be worried about!
While that would be a possibility, I have a feeling he will be here at least a few years, no matter how this season goes (even if we make a shock Final Four run). I think the first "other high major" job he'd look at would be Duke once K goes. If he doesn't get that, then maybe he considers other options. I think we're still 2-3 years away from even entertaining another coaching search, at the minimum.
Quote from: MU82 on January 11, 2017, 10:12:27 PM
Fire Wojo. I can't believe he let Carrington bank in that 3. And isn't a little odd for a coach to actually tell his 83% FT shooter (Haani) to miss 2 straight? Wojo's gotta go.
And don't let any of those Wojo apologists say it's a sign of a mentally tough team to be able to win in OT without two starters and after being faced with other adversity. They won despite Wojo's mind games.
Please leave. You are obviously a very unhappy human being and a troll.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 12, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
Please leave. You are obviously a very unhappy human being and a troll.
Have actually met 82. He's one of the happiest guys I know!
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 12, 2017, 05:14:22 PM
Have actually met 82. He's one of the happiest guys I know!
But was he a troll?
I like reading all this whining. What else do liberal democrats have to do to keep busy. OK, Rocky you can lock up this thread and if you want to slap me on the wrist I'm Ok with that too.
Quote from: Goose on January 12, 2017, 10:34:02 AM
Tower
On the surface you make some valid points, with one exception IMO. One outstanding freshman kept us is the game and without him we would have been in big trouble. No one can bust Wojo's balls on the two freshmen he brought in this year.
Wojo is bringing in talented young players that can help win games? Can you imagine if he did that each year? What if the players from previous years also improve and they all played together and won a lot of games!? What a crazy idea! :o
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 12, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
Please leave. You are obviously a very unhappy human being and a troll.
MU82 doesn't use
teal - old school!
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 12, 2017, 05:12:25 PM
Please leave. You are obviously a very unhappy human being and a troll.
not to pile on but how does one get to 1700 posts and not get 82's persona?
Oh boy.
Kids today.
Quote from: naginiF on January 12, 2017, 10:36:50 PM
not to pile on but how does one get to 1700 posts and not get 82's persona?
UNLESS -- Stretch
also is anti-teal!
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 11, 2017, 10:51:42 AM
Considering your consistent moaning for the past many months, I'm unsure why you're here. It's the twilight of your ride and you should have a hobby that brings joy rather then pain. Move on.
Goose and his family have been a part of the Marquette story for generations. And they have done more for the university, and the men's basketball team, than you ever will.
I would suggest you take your sanctimonious schtick somewhere else because it is people like Goose who have made meaningful contributions to Marquette's success for decades. Your level of engagement is sniveling on a message board while Goose has been actively engaged in making Marquette something special.
Goose knows better than most what a successful program means to Marquette. And he and I both know that there are many influential and generous supporters of Marquette who are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with what is happening with the team.
Telling Goose to "move on" illustrates not just your dreadful hubris but, more sickeningly, your grotesque fatuousness.
Quote from: Badgerhater on January 11, 2017, 01:05:09 PM
There is a difference between whining and complaining.
In the military, troops have a God-given right to complain and they exercise it frequently.
Which is why God created First Sergeants! Isn't that right First Sergeant?
Quote from: keefe on January 13, 2017, 10:10:40 AM
Goose and his family have been a part of the Marquette story for generations. And they have done more for the university, and the men's basketball team, than you ever will.
I would suggest you take your sanctimonious schtick somewhere elsebecause it is people like Goose who have made meaningful contributions to Marquette's success for decades. Your level of engagement is sniveling on a message board while Goose has been actively engaged in making Marquette something special.
Goose knows better than most what a successful program means to Marquette. And he and I both know that there are many influential and generous supporters of Marquette who are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with what is happening with the team.
Telling Goose to "move on" illustrates not just your dreadful hubris but, more sickeningly, your grotesque fatuousness.
Priceless
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 12, 2017, 04:20:04 PM
While that would be a possibility, I have a feeling he will be here at least a few years, no matter how this season goes (even if we make a shock Final Four run). I think the first "other high major" job he'd look at would be Duke once K goes. If he doesn't get that, then maybe he considers other options. I think we're still 2-3 years away from even entertaining another coaching search, at the minimum.
I actually think Wojo really likes it here, and wants to build his own program. He can have just as much success at MU than just about any program in the country outside of a handful or two of blue bloods. I honestly don't think Wojo is going anywhere other than Duke, unless he is shown the door.
Quote from: LAZER on January 13, 2017, 10:19:13 AM
Priceless
With all do respect you forgot "You can say what you want aboub us but we are not going to sit here and let you bad mouth the United States of America(humming the Star Bangled Banner in the background). Gentleman!"
Quote from: keefe on January 13, 2017, 10:12:18 AM
Which is why God created First Sergeants! Isn't that right First Sergeant?
Well with all of that, I hope you and Goose are DAILY voters on the Hometown Heroes Thread.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 13, 2017, 10:32:30 AM
I actually think Wojo really likes it here, and wants to build his own program. He can have just as much success at MU than just about any program in the country outside of a handful or two of blue bloods. I honestly don't think Wojo is going anywhere other than Duke, unless he is shown the door.
It's going to take a lot of work but I agree. I think Wojo enjoys it here and could easily have us at top 3 in the BE year in and out if he wants/can create that (assuming our D shores up).
Having said that I could see him taking a high profile ACC gig if it comes open also.
I think Wojo will definitely be here another 2 years no matter what happens during those years record wise. No denying our talent is high. And our talent is young. It will build.
Quote from: keefe on January 13, 2017, 10:10:40 AM
Goose and his family have been a part of the Marquette story for generations. And they have done more for the university, and the men's basketball team, than you ever will.
I would suggest you take your sanctimonious schtick somewhere else because it is people like Goose who have made meaningful contributions to Marquette's success for decades. Your level of engagement is sniveling on a message board while Goose has been actively engaged in making Marquette something special.
Goose knows better than most what a successful program means to Marquette. And he and I both know that there are many influential and generous supporters of Marquette who are becoming increasingly uncomfortable with what is happening with the team.
Telling Goose to "move on" illustrates not just your dreadful hubris but, more sickeningly, your grotesque fatuousness.
i'm not arguing Goose's contributions to the school or what not but how can you realistically know any of this? Quite frankly in this post you come off very arrogant and snobby. For all you know Golden Avalanche comes from/started a massive MU family, he may not of to but there's no way to know. Goose has been a major debbie downer recently and his consistent griping has been somewhat annoying also warranted in some cases. To hit back making presumptuous statements is not a good look though.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 12:43:35 PM
i'm not arguing Goose's contributions to the school or what not but how can you realistically know any of this? Quite frankly in this post you come off very arrogant and snobby. For all you know Golden Avalanche comes from/started a massive MU family, he may not of to but there's no way to know. Goose has been a major debbie downer recently and his consistent griping has been somewhat annoying also warranted in some cases. To hit back making presumptuous statements is not a good look though.
His choice of "sanctimonious" and "hubris" is amazing.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 12:43:35 PM
Quite frankly in this post you come off very arrogant and snobby.
Keefe arrogant and snobby!?!?! NOOOOOOOOO.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 13, 2017, 12:43:35 PM
i'm not arguing Goose's contributions to the school or what not but how can you realistically know any of this? Quite frankly in this post you come off very arrogant and snobby. For all you know Golden Avalanche comes from/started a massive MU family, he may not of to but there's no way to know. Goose has been a major debbie downer recently and his consistent griping has been somewhat annoying also warranted in some cases. To hit back making presumptuous statements is not a good look though.
I know Goose. He bleeds Blue and Gold. Anyone telling him to 'get lost' or 'move on' is a clueless idiot.
Quote from: keefe on January 13, 2017, 03:36:29 PM
I know Goose. He bleeds Blue and Gold. Anyone telling him to 'get lost' or 'move on' is a clueless idiot.
Im sure he does, but that's not remotely what your post said. also not to nitpick here but the only way one could be considered clueless in this instance is if the general expectation is knowing Goose bleeds blue and gold. While that may be common knowledge to those of us who spend our daily routine checking scoop 5 times a day others on this board could easily see someone who has been a big downer and refuses to see any positives, as of late, and I could understand how a poster would come to question his presence on here
Not dat he needs it, but I'm gonna stick my schmeckel out for Brother Goose too. Da cat has flat out forgotten more 'bout MU hoops dan most of y'all will ever learn. His frustration or pissedness is not witout merit. And beyond all dis chit, we're on a fookin' chat board wear one dude or dudette's opinion is as valid as da next. So, get off his heine and opine away, ai na?
I don't question for one second that Goose has given a lot to MU hoops, and am grateful for that. That said, he has openly said he is barely interested in the team and is close to apathy, so I think we can question his love for the program at this point.
Quote from: tower912 on January 12, 2017, 10:06:21 AM
Do you see defensive progress over the last month? I do. It was good enough last night that not one person has complained it. Could we have said that a month ago?
I see improvement in consistent effort. Luke got the message after the Nova game. Other than JjJ doing his good play/bad play routine, did one player not bust his a$$ last night?
After blowing another late lead, did the coach and team pull it together and beat a bigger, stronger, more experienced team? And 3 refs? ;)
Could Matt Heldt give us what he did last night a year ago or even a month ago?
Are Markus or Sam any good?
Do we have a sophomore in a shooting slump that continues to make every other winning play?
Is there a boat load of size on the horizon?
I see progress. I see good young players. I see building blocks. There are going to be more bad games that are going to be frustrating and difficult to watch. I accept it. But I can see the road map.
(http://nostalgiapost.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/cool-runnings-gif.gif)
AGAIN!
Cool Running's, mahn. Nice.
Not to speak for Goose or other long time alumni families, but there is a growing apathetic sentiment about the state of the program and university carried over to now. Not about Wojo but that the university would hire a coach in waiting with the investment in the program. Apathy for them is not "I don't care" but rather "I quit caring".
A five year rebuild doesn't sit well, remembering these alums are weary of these administrations (Wojo was hired with no president or AD, the three top sports programs were coachless, and MU was in a new conference=cluster). MU is paying severance and salary for three admins yet.
Scholl is working to get things right with alums. Wojo is growing. Future rosters look bright. NCAA this year and Wojo is golden. Lose and donors will start to walk faster than they have. There is a $120 million athletics facility to be funded and built stuck in the mud.
Good post Dr B.
No reason to attack anyone personally for an opinion. Disagreeing based on ideas, facts and perspective make sense though.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 09:40:28 AM
At the very best I would Wojo a C grade at this point. As always, I would give MU admin a D for a grade.
Quote from: Goose on January 11, 2017, 10:43:07 AM
The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.
Good stuff
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 24, 2017, 10:25:39 PM
Good stuff
So funny.
I do remember SLU's big comeback win over No. 1, though.