Keep Whining

[Badgerhater]

There is a difference between whining and complaining.

In the military, troops have a God-given right to complain and they exercise it frequently.

Fans also have a God-given right to complain.

If fans do quite complaining it will either be because MU is good again or has remained bad to the point that these fans are indifferent.  Indifference puts a program on the path to DePaul.

[1SE]

1SE, I have looked at the talent on hand, looked at the schedule, and attempted to make my expectations objectively and dispassionately.    Wojo's first year was exactly what I expected based on MU's roster.    Last year, Henry was better than I expected and what I had analyzed as a 17 win team turned into a 20 win team.   My expectations for this team was that it would be a better team  that could end up with a worse record due to a potentially fatal lack of size that was going to take some really good coaching to overcome.     I predicted the defensive struggles and the cause of them 7 months ago. 

I would argue that I have been right all 3 years in my preseason assessments of Wojo's teams.     This isn't low expectations.   These are realistic expectations.      I have also said repeatedly that I am not yet completely sold on Wojo as I have yet to see him produce the alchemy/voodoo/magic that makes a team better than the sum of its parts.  I have said that his long term success is predicated upon his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.  But he can recruit and I can see what he is trying to do.
   So I choose to be patient.   I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to.    It is something that I revel in when it occurs.   And therefore, unless I see a complete disintegration of the team, signs that Wojo has lost the program, or a complete backslide for no obvious reason (obvious reasons being injuries, unforeseen transfers with no replacement in place.   I view those as reasons, not excuses) I don't feel the need to lose my mind when the team loses or an individual player isn't playing well.   I see progress.   I see good young players.   I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place.  I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected.    I don't do whining when I don't get my needs for instant gratification met.    So we differ.   Keep challenging.

Sorry Tower, I was a bit flip. But my point with you on this is what it's always been. Just because the team has been performing to your expectations (and I admit they have) doesn't mean anything about the type of job Wojo is doing. It can mean one of two things:

1) Your expectations were realistic and Wojo is on track (which is what you think - but correct me if I'm wrong)

or

2) Your expectations were pessimistic and Wojo is meeting those expectations (i.e. your expectations were for underachievement and that's what is happening - this is what I think).

Basketball is a fickle game. We were an ill-timed bucket or two away from the NIT last year. We'll probably be an ill-timed bucket or two away from the NCAA this year. But that fickleness should be more or less random, and should win us as many games as it loses (I'm not quite sure how Pomery calculates the "luck" statistic - maybe we do have some multiple standard-deviation curse of unluckiness). But even then, unlucky (and lucky) things happen to all of us in our professions and we still have to suffer/enjoy the consequences.

My bottom line is that for a coach with a top (25?) salary and a program that is resourced in the top (15) we should have had more success in the last 3 years than we've had, maybe not much more, but marginally more. And I don't think it's "eye-roll gif" worthy of me to continue making that point on this message board. There is a lot of hyperbole about "fire Wojo" but if you look back through my record I've never advocated that - the position I've consistently held is that he has been (marginally) underperforming and if that continues there should start to be a bit of warmth in his seat.

We're in danger of becoming a "C" high-major - which is especially disappointing given that we were on the cusp of becoming an *almost* blue blood.

Wojo is not a dumpster fire (far from it). I'm sure Wojo will be a lifetime .660 coach and even see NCAA success from time to time. But he's not achieving at the level that I would expect for the amount of resources the University puts into the program. As someone who puts resources into the University, that is troubling to me. If we can't attract the coaching talent to get us back to the *almost* blue blood level (and maybe we can't, maybe Wojo is the best we can do) then I hope the admin realizes that and scales back on the resources we put into the program. We don't need to spend like a top 15 team to achieve the success of a top-60.

[Bocephys]

So...have you actually looked at what SLU looks like lately? They are currently 4-11 on the season, 0-3 in the A-10, their best win is Eastern Illinois, and since Wojo took over here, SLU is 26-53 (8-31) while Marquette is 43-38 (13-26) and in his worst season he won more games (13) than SLU has won any of the past three years.

Sorry, but this is just silly talk. It's parroting a false old narrative that doesn't reflect the actual performance or the trajectory the program has shown the past three years.

In Goose's defense, Marquette and SLU have exactly the same number of A-10 wins this year.

[brewcity77]

In Goose's defense, Marquette and SLU have exactly the same number of A-10 wins this year.

[Loose Cannon]

TAMU

Wojo might be at his ceiling and that is not his fault. I never get angry at someone if they are put in a situation that are not capable of handling. I do angry at the person who puts someone in that position.

As I have said several times on here, I really do not know if Wojo ends up being a hit or a miss. That said, my interest level in seeing what happens is getting smaller by the day. I turned down free tix for the game tonight and really no reason other than I have little to no excitement about the game. Kind of makes me sad, but I am sure there will be 13,329 folks at the BC.

We'll keep the light on for ya.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

All good points, and I agree with you for the most part. (Which is why I said they're not mutually exclusive objectives).

I do think it's important to remember that as a private Jesuit institution, Marquette is different from many other universities. For example, could you ever imagine Al McGuire or any MU head coach keeping his job after: 1) cheating on his wife in the middle of a restaurant and paying her to get an abortion; then 2) having an assistant coach arrange and pay for strippers and prostitutes to entertain players and recruits?

Marquette believes in excellence. Winning on the basketball court is part of that commitment — but not at any cost.

I agree we need to abide by rules and stay true to the mission of our university.  I am not in the business of line drawing though...

I would argue though that your two examples are moral failings not a commentary on winning.  Rick Pitino doesnt need to do #2 to get good recruits and #1 just is a reflection of him.  Our coaches have not been saints either (even though most people look like a saint compared to Rick). 

At the end of the day this is big time basketball with a lot of money at stake - bad things will happen (to what degree I dont know).  The important thing is not that an event occurs but how the administration reacts when it does happen (sweep under rug, prosecute, fire, what-ever) and have the proper controls and monitoring to ensure they are getting what they expect. 

[Marcus92]

I would argue though that your two examples are moral failings not a commentary on winning. Rick Pitino doesnt need to do #2 to get good recruits and #1 just is a reflection of him. Our coaches have not been saints either (even though most people look like a saint compared to Rick).

Agreed. I think you can build a winning program and do it the right way without cheating. (From a purely basketball standpoint, that was the intent of the strippers and hookers: to gain an unfair advantage in recruiting.)

But while nobody's perfect, I do think there's a clear difference between coaches like Pitino or Calipari and Coach K or Izzo, for example. All 4 are brilliant students and teachers of the game. But none of these scandals have happened by accident.

[Galway Eagle]

I agree we need to abide by rules and stay true to the mission of our university.  I am not in the business of line drawing though...

I would argue though that your two examples are moral failings not a commentary on winning.  Rick Pitino doesnt need to do #2 to get good recruits and #1 just is a reflection of him.  Our coaches have not been saints either (even though most people look like a saint compared to Rick). 

At the end of the day this is big time basketball with a lot of money at stake - bad things will happen (to what degree I dont know).  The important thing is not that an event occurs but how the administration reacts when it does happen (sweep under rug, prosecute, fire, what-ever) and have the proper controls and monitoring to ensure they are getting what they expect.

I wonder if the families of the two girls in 2011 would agree with you.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Appreciate the sound advice and it will be followed. All I can say is that I hope everybody on here loves MU ball and the University as much as I do.

Yet you're turning down free tickets to a huge game because we're 10-5 instead of 12-3?  Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I wonder if the families of the two girls in 2011 would agree with you.

Don't mis-interpret my point Boxer -- i think that was handled terribly and they should be upset with the admin....they failed those women.

[Galway Eagle]

Don't mis-interpret my point Boxer -- i think that was handled terribly and they should be upset with the admin....they failed those women.

Not misrepresenting you were the one who said this is big time basketball bad things happen. Your point comes across as someone who'd rather let those things happen and then handle it better in the aftermath

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Not misrepresenting you were the one who said this is big time basketball bad things happen. Your point comes across as someone who'd rather let those things happen and then handle it better in the aftermath

No I implied that bad things will happen.  Meaning there is no amount of control that you can put in place to ensure that kids won't do bad things and issues happen everywhere.  This is true for MU's Gen Pop as well BTW.

I am sorry it came across as 'do your worst and we will react'

[Goose]

Jamil

If you think this is a huge game, I think I understand why the program is at the level it is currently at.  Louisville/Kentucky is a huge game, UCLA/ Duke is a huge game, IU/Wisconsin is a really good game.....MU/SH is a game.

[LAZER]

Jamil

If you think this is a huge game, I think I understand why the program is at the level it is currently at.  Louisville/Kentucky is a huge game, UCLA/ Duke is a huge game, IU/Wisconsin is a really good game.....MU/SH is a game.

C'mon, this is ridiculous.

[Marcus92]

Jamil

If you think this is a huge game, I think I understand why the program is at the level it is currently at.  Louisville/Kentucky is a huge game, UCLA/ Duke is a huge game, IU/Wisconsin is a really good game.....MU/SH is a game.

Every game in the Big East is a big game. The same holds true for every game in the ACC (or any other conference, for that matter). Duke can't afford to overlook Boston College or Georgia Tech any more than we can overlook DePaul or St. John's.

[dgies9156]

I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to.   

Obviously a graduate from the Dukiet/Deane era.

I am entitled to a National Championship caliber program. The was part of the admissions package when I attended Marquette and was the first amendment to the 10 commandments adopted in 1966 by the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Al.

Of course I want a National Title. My life revolves around Marquette's success. Baseball and Packers season  are just interludes until Marquette tip-off, which should be a Holy Day of Obligation for all Warriors. My wife still reminds me of when we were dating and I broke off a dinner to get to the Arena. And she hates basketball (and likely will not see eternal salvation because she dislikes Marquette basketball).

We will return and while I am sticking with the process, I want success as fast as we can get it!

[WarriorFan]

one win... please, just one win..

[Marcus92]

I think games like tonight's are the most telling about where our program is right now. We're clearly not at the same level as Villanova. But if we can compete with — and win our fair share of games against — teams like Creighton, Butler, Providence and Seton Hall, then we should be in the mix for a top 5 conference finish and an NCAA bid.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

I am entitled to a National Championship caliber program. The was part of the admissions package when I attended Marquette and was the first amendment to the 10 commandments adopted in 1966 by the Holy Roman Catholic Church of Al.

Of course I want a National Title. My life revolves around Marquette's success. Baseball and Packers season  are just interludes until Marquette tip-off, which should be a Holy Day of Obligation for all Warriors. My wife still reminds me of when we were dating and I broke off a dinner to get to the Arena. And she hates basketball (and likely will not see eternal salvation because she dislikes Marquette basketball).

Why is the second paragraph in teal?

[Let's Go Warriors]

Why is the second paragraph in teal?

Amen!

[bilsu]

I always felt that this year would be better than next year. Now, with Froling being eligible for the second semester of next year, I can start believing next year will be better. I think the team is better this year than last year, but still may not make the tournament. That I saw as a big problem, since I thought next year would be back tracking. Now I think we have an excellent shot to make the tournament next year, if we do not make it his year.

[Class71]

How do we feel about:

1) Whining?
2) Whining about whiners?
3) Whining about those who whine about whiners?

You get the idea. Do we really care? Let's win tonight!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Admin gets a D for a wide range of reasons in regards to MUBB. I think they have played the alums and fans as suckers for a long time.

How have they played alums and fans as suckers?

I do not think they have ever set public expectations for what they deem as success from the program.

I'm not sure what this means. Do you want the admin to send out a memo to all stakeholders what they expect the outcome of each season to be at the start of every year? Or are you saying that the porgram hasn't lived up to expectations and isn't being held accountable?

The program is beginning to look more and more like SLU to me.

Show your work. Because when I look at SLU I see a school ranked below us slightly in academics that is about to go bankrupt and has one of the bottom 100 basketball programs of Division 1. Marquette doesn't look anything like that to me. And the program has improved every year under wojo so we seem to be trending away from SLU.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So, the tourney in year 3, no tourney in year 4, and a string of tourneys begin in year 5.

I admire the specificity of your expectations and you going out on a limb to publish them.
But just for grins what were those specifics based on?

Looking at the roster I knew it wasn't a one year rebuild. I figured Wojo could get to the tourney once his first class had a year under their belt. I thought there might be a drop when Fischer graduated. We've always had trouble getting big men and thought Wojo might have the same issue. By year 5, Wojo would have a team full of his guys and time to set up a foundation for future success. Hardly scientific reasons but its what my thought process was.

[wadesworld]

Is it cool if I whine about the reffing in this SH game? Because whoof...