Keep Whining

[1SE]

I'm not going to write a tome or try to counter lots of Brew's well-made points. Instead I take issue with the premise.

1) The average reader/poster on this boarder is more more interested/engaged than the average MU fan. If there is a constituency of dissatisfied supporters here that certainly translated to a broader population of dissatisfied, or worse disinterested, supporters elsewhere. I'm not sure if any form MUBB follows this board, but if they do, having some sense of all dimensions of the pulse of their fanbase probably isn't the worst thing for their business model. Of course they take a holistic view but pretending dissatisfaction isn't there doesn't do the program any favors.

2) Complacency breeds mediocrity. The modal NCAA DI high major team makes the Tourney what, maybe once every 3 years on average? It's very easy to become a modal team.

3) The "old guard" here are, to a large extent, an echo chamber. Their consensus is that Wojo is leading the team in the right direction and that we should all respect the process. While that may ultimately be true, it ultimately might not. Having both viewpoints keeps us all on our toes.

4) This is a freakin' anonymous message board. For the most part the Wojo skeptics aren't even trolls. Almost every poster here wants success and the best for MU. There's just difference visions of what might bring that.

5) Starting a thread on "Whining" exhibits something I've seen a lot of from the "old guard" - patronizing and ad hominem attacks against those who aren't toeing the party line. Accepting that others might have a different view of a coach/program doesn't seem like something to get so worked up about.

So I say keep whining - it's healthy and it staves off settling for second best. Let's continue to demand more than the best for MUBB. Of course we aren't going to achieve it, but the goal should be win everyday. Cut down the nets every year. Until we go on a 89 game win streak or have 8 consecutive titles let's aspire to more!

[tower912]

I think incessant whining on a message board reveals character.   (see signature)

[1SE]

Well, thanks for validating my point on ad hominems.

I only kept the "Whine" to mirror the other thread.

How about "Demand Excellence"? (see signature)

[mu03eng]

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I agree with MU03's gif....

That being said, I say keep things fact based and try not to to attack anyone who has an opinion personally.  Feels like that has been increasing lately...

[MU82]

Criticizing people for being "patronizing" and referring to those same people as "the old guard" is too delicious to be run-of-the-mill irony.

As for your point ...

Yep, it's a free country (for now). Whine away.

It's also free for those who wish to tell whiners to stop whining.

[Loose Cannon]

.

How about "Demand Excellence"? (see signature)

I think it is more accurate to read "Demand Excellence NOW"

[DoggyDaddy]

I think incessant whining on a message board reveals character.   (see signature)

Incessant whining reveals childish behavior and relatedly, the need for a nap.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

To me, there's a significant difference between incessant or absurd whining vs. having logical concerns or being constructively critical.  To me, there sure seems to be a lot more of the former, especially after a disheartening loss. 

I'm as frustrated as any with our tourney drought and that the games we gave away to Pitt and Seton Hall will come back to bite us.  And while I do think improvements are necessary in terms of coaching, I think the recruiting has been above average to excellent, and that's where it starts. 

Wojo inherited a sh*t show of a roster and to already expect a top 25 team is just not realistic, IMO. 

[TallTitan34]

1) I would say Scoopers don't reflect the opinions of the average Marquette fan.

2) We made it 8 straight years (2006-2013) so we can miss the next 21 years and maintain your average.

3) I think we are on the right track but I agree with you.  It helps to look at different perspectives.

4) I think a good portion of the Wojo skeptics are trolls seeing as they only come out after losses. 

5) Personally, I don't care if someone has a different opinion.  It's just that the opinions are often very radical.  After a win the "where are we ranked" thread comes out.  After a loss it's "fire Wojo"!  Criticisms of Wojo are more than reasonable, but calling for his head after every loss is a bit much.  Just as is planning our trip to the Final Four. 

[brewcity77]

This is like giving candy to your toddler mid-temper tantrum. But I suppose that's what parenting is nowadays.

[manny31]

While I am clearly in the "Old  Guard" camp I don't attack anybody. Additionally I prefer to think of my posts as not whining. I think they fall more into the category of incessant bitching about MU's lack of toughness.  Maybe we need need to delineate threads as being whine free, and safe zone if you will. This Froling kid better be tough. G'day all.

[fjm]

Lame thread.

[1SE]

Criticizing people for being "patronizing" and referring to those same people as "the old guard" is too delicious to be run-of-the-mill irony.

As for your point ...

Yep, it's a free country (for now). Whine away.

It's also free for those who wish to tell whiners to stop whining.

Voluminous posters?

[mu03eng]

Lame thread.

Naw, this thread is just a clear indication we're getting a jump on off-season Scoop season.

[1SE]

The response to this thread is just indicative.

All I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that a bit of grumbling from the rank and file keeps everyone sharp. The only reason I'm "encouraging" that is because we have an 11 page thread dedicated to disparaging discontent.

Other than Tower (who seems to think it's a major accomplishment for MU just to put 5 bodies on the floor) has anyone really had their expectations exceeded in the last 3 years?

I'm no millennial, but I teach them at the university level. The grading of Wojo by many of the mainstays on this board seems to be on their scale - he's trying hard and is generally pointed in the right direction so that should be a B+. I would say given the situation he walked into, overall (combining recruiting, player development, game prep, and game coaching), Wojo has done an average job. On my scale that's a C. You all may be content with C but I expect a bit more from a basketball program that is resourced in the top 25 across the country.

[mu03eng]

The response to this thread is just indicative.

All I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that a bit of grumbling from the rank and file keeps everyone sharp. The only reason I'm "encouraging" that is because we have an 11 page thread dedicated to disparaging discontent.

Other than Tower (who seems to think it's a major accomplishment for MU just to put 5 bodies on the floor) has anyone really had their expectations exceeded in the last 3 years?

I'm no millennial, but I teach them at the university level. The grading of Wojo by many of the mainstays on this board seems to be on their scale - he's trying hard and is generally pointed in the right direction so that should be a B+. I would say given the situation he walked into, overall (combining recruiting, player development, game prep, and game coaching), Wojo has done an average job. On my scale that's a C. You all may be content with C but I expect a bit more from a basketball program that is resourced in the top 25 across the country.

[Goose]

At the very best I would Wojo a C grade at this point. As always, I would give MU admin a D for a grade.

[MU82]

Wojo inherited a sh*t show of a roster and to already expect a top 25 team is just not realistic, IMO.

Ridiculous. The guy we should have had, Shaka Smart, already has Texas on the verge of the national title!

[tower912]

The response to this thread is just indicative.

All I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that a bit of grumbling from the rank and file keeps everyone sharp. The only reason I'm "encouraging" that is because we have an 11 page thread dedicated to disparaging discontent.

Other than Tower (who seems to think it's a major accomplishment for MU just to put 5 bodies on the floor) has anyone really had their expectations exceeded in the last 3 years?

I'm no millennial, but I teach them at the university level. The grading of Wojo by many of the mainstays on this board seems to be on their scale - he's trying hard and is generally pointed in the right direction so that should be a B+. I would say given the situation he walked into, overall (combining recruiting, player development, game prep, and game coaching), Wojo has done an average job. On my scale that's a C. You all may be content with C but I expect a bit more from a basketball program that is resourced in the top 25 across the country.

1SE, I have looked at the talent on hand, looked at the schedule, and attempted to make my expectations objectively and dispassionately.    Wojo's first year was exactly what I expected based on MU's roster.    Last year, Henry was better than I expected and what I had analyzed as a 17 win team turned into a 20 win team.   My expectations for this team was that it would be a better team  that could end up with a worse record due to a potentially fatal lack of size that was going to take some really good coaching to overcome.     I predicted the defensive struggles and the cause of them 7 months ago. 

I would argue that I have been right all 3 years in my preseason assessments of Wojo's teams.     This isn't low expectations.   These are realistic expectations.      I have also said repeatedly that I am not yet completely sold on Wojo as I have yet to see him produce the alchemy/voodoo/magic that makes a team better than the sum of its parts.  I have said that his long term success is predicated upon his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.  But he can recruit and I can see what he is trying to do.
   So I choose to be patient.   I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to.    It is something that I revel in when it occurs.   And therefore, unless I see a complete disintegration of the team, signs that Wojo has lost the program, or a complete backslide for no obvious reason (obvious reasons being injuries, unforeseen transfers with no replacement in place.   I view those as reasons, not excuses) I don't feel the need to lose my mind when the team loses or an individual player isn't playing well.   I see progress.   I see good young players.   I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place.  I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected.    I don't do whining when I don't get my needs for instant gratification met.    So we differ.   Keep challenging. 

[MU82]

1SE, I have looked at the talent on hand, looked at the schedule, and attempted to make my expectations objectively and dispassionately.    Wojo's first year was exactly what I expected based on MU's roster.    Last year, Henry was better than I expected and what I had analyzed as a 17 win team turned into a 20 win team.   My expectations for this team was that it would be a better team  that could end up with a worse record due to a potentially fatal lack of size that was going to take some really good coaching to overcome.     I predicted the defensive struggles and the cause of them 7 months ago. 

I would argue that I have been right all 3 years in my preseason assessments of Wojo's teams.     This isn't low expectations.   These are realistic expectations.      I have also said repeatedly that I am not yet completely sold on Wojo as I have yet to see him produce the alchemy/voodoo/magic that makes a team better than the sum of its parts.  I have said that his long term success is predicated upon his ability to grow beyond his Duke roots.  But he can recruit and I can see what he is trying to do.
   So I choose to be patient.   I don't believe that basketball success at MU is what I am entitled to.    It is something that I revel in when it occurs.   And therefore, unless I see a complete disintegration of the team, signs that Wojo has lost the program, or a complete backslide for no obvious reason (obvious reasons being injuries, unforeseen transfers with no replacement in place.   I view those as reasons, not excuses) I don't feel the need to lose my mind when the team loses or an individual player isn't playing well.   I see progress.   I see good young players.   I see the building blocks for future greatness being put in place.  I accept that it is a process that needs to be respected.    I don't do whining when I don't get my needs for instant gratification met.    So we differ.   Keep challenging.

This is an extremely objective, even-handed, mature analysis. At the risk of embarrassing you with praise, it should be the template for all others. Seriously, well done my friend.

[Let's Go Warriors]

This is an extremely objective, even-handed, mature analysis. At the risk of embarrassing you with praise, it should be the template for all others. Seriously, well done my friend.

It ignores some very apparent systemic problems with the program.  IE defense and toughness.  Also a rather large roster turnover still going on in year 3.

This is also factual and even handed.
tomato, tomato...

[tower912]

It ignores some very apparent systemic problems with the program.  IE defense and toughness.  Also a rather large roster turnover still going on in year 3.

This is also factual and even handed.
tomato, tomato...

No, they are factored into my expectations.   In fact, I specifically stated that I predicted this team's defensive shortcomings 7 months ago. 

[Let's Go Warriors]

No, they are factored into my expectations.   In fact, I specifically stated that I predicted this team's defensive shortcomings 7 months ago.

And that my MU friend is an opinion...

Its fine and valid and all. But its just an opinion.

Also, Im predicting defensive shortcomings next season.  IMO these frosh and Frolling will be behind Fischer defensively, whom I believe is scapegoat for many on this board.

But Im not ok with it IMO.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

At the very best I would Wojo a C grade at this point. As always, I would give MU admin a D for a grade.

Why? (Admin not wojo)