Although he's moved on, Buzz Williams is still the source of a lot of fun MU memories for me.
http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/how-buzz-williams-turned-virginia-tech-around/ (http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/how-buzz-williams-turned-virginia-tech-around/)
I'm glad to see his success at VT...hope we meet them (and beat them :D ) in the tourney.
NOTE: VaTech is 6-1 including a nice win over Michigan...only a 3 point loss to TAMU. ACC will be tough though.
I don't care about the multi-millionaire cowboy, one for all and all for me!
Superbar.
At least while in-season
Guy is a snake oil salesman, but he knows how to win.
Quote from: Ellenson Guerrero on December 01, 2016, 07:30:13 PM
Guy is a snake oil salesman, but he knows how to win.
Newsflash, College sports is full of them.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 01, 2016, 07:35:40 PM
Newsflash, College sports is full of them.
And they're often the most successful...
Quote from: MUBigDance on December 01, 2016, 04:13:50 PM
Although he's moved on, Buzz Williams is still the source of a lot of fun MU memories for me.
http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/how-buzz-williams-turned-virginia-tech-around/ (http://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/how-buzz-williams-turned-virginia-tech-around/)
I'm glad to see his success at VT...hope we meet them (and beat them :D ) in the tourney.
NOTE: VaTech is 6-1 including a nice win over Michigan...only a 3 point loss to TAMU. ACC will be tough though.
He's a really good coach and definitely the source of great memories. But he's also a prick, he left our program hurting, and I'm not glad to see any success he may have at VT.
Crean sucks
Quote from: Babybluejeans on December 01, 2016, 07:43:36 PM
He's a really good coach and definitely the source of great memories. But he's also a prick, he left our program hurting, and I'm not glad to see any success he may have at VT.
He left the program because MU, in its infinite wisdom, hired two dingbats. Pilarz and Larry Williams.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 01, 2016, 07:51:03 PM
He left the program because MU, in its infinite wisdom, hired two dingbats. Pilarz and Larry Williams.
And those two Mensa candidates confused an episodic problem with a systemic problem.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 01, 2016, 07:51:03 PM
He left the program because MU, in its infinite wisdom, hired two dingbats. Pilarz and Larry Williams.
Winner.
nm
ND sucks
I came here looking for details on the South Pole evacuation.
#onlyoneBuzz
Quote from: tower912 on December 01, 2016, 08:06:59 PM
And those two Mensa candidates confused an episodic problem with a systemic problem.
Winner #2.
Quote from: tower912 on December 01, 2016, 08:06:59 PM
And those two Mensa candidates confused an alcoholic problem with a systemic problem.
We ran off a guy who was our second best coach ever and replaced him with a guy who thought Sandy Cohen was better than Deonte Burton. That made a lot of sense.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on December 01, 2016, 09:22:46 PM
We ran off a guy who was our second best coach ever and replaced him with a guy who thought Sandy Cohen was better than Deonte Burton. That made a lot of sense.
So when JJJ leaves, are you leaving too?
Wojo played Burton more minutes than Cohen when they were both on the team.
I'm okay with Marquette finally telling Buzz, "No," after they bent over backwards for his absurd demands every single offseason he was here. If the guy can't win without having players who sexually assault students (and then brings the team together to make sure everyone has the same story about the incident), players who attempt to light girls' hair on fire, etc. then I'm good with Marquette moving on and looking for someone who will clean the program up. If that's me on a high horse then I'll ride that high horse all my life. There's "college kids doing stupid things" and then there's, well, the things that MU finally said, "Enough!" to. I loved Bert while he was here, I loved all the winning, I refused to believe all the whispers I had heard and turned a blind eye to it because, well, we were winning and it was fun, but there were absolutely systematic problems within the basketball program, and they needed to be changed. Bert wasn't willing to make the changes, so he went elsewhere where he could get what he wanted when he wanted it and how he wanted it.
Good for Marquette, good for Bert.
I was pissed when he left, but the more I hear the more I'm disgusted I ever supported the guy.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 01, 2016, 10:19:19 PM
I'm okay with Marquette finally telling Buzz, "No," after they bent over backwards for his absurd demands every single offseason he was here. If the guy can't win without having players who sexually assault students (and then brings the team together to make sure everyone has the same story about the incident), players who attempt to light girls' hair on fire, etc. then I'm good with Marquette moving on and looking for someone who will clean the program up. If that's me on a high horse then I'll ride that high horse all my life. There's "college kids doing stupid things" and then there's, well, the things that MU finally said, "Enough!" to. I loved Bert while he was here, I loved all the winning, I refused to believe all the whispers I had heard and turned a blind eye to it because, well, we were winning and it was fun, but there were absolutely systematic problems within the basketball program, and they needed to be changed. Bert wasn't willing to make the changes, so he went elsewhere where he could get what he wanted when he wanted it and how he wanted it.
Good for Marquette, good for Bert.
I was pissed when he left, but the more I hear the more I'm disgusted I ever supported the guy.
That is a well reasoned position. I think your under estimating how much of a f!?)/ Larry Williams was though.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on December 01, 2016, 10:41:37 PM
That is a well reasoned position. I think your under estimating how much of a f!?)/ Larry Williams was though.
I very well may be. But that was yet another thing MU gave Bert his way about. It was either Bert or Larry, and it was Bert.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 01, 2016, 10:45:16 PM
I very well may be. But that was yet another thing MU gave Bert his way about. It was either Bert or Larry, and it was Bert.
Whatever. Now they are both gone so what's your point.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 01, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
Whatever. Now they are both gone so what's your point.
My point was to respond to MUFINY's point.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 01, 2016, 07:51:03 PM
He left the program because MU, in its infinite wisdom, hired two dingbats. Pilarz and Larry Williams.
And yet Scuzz got both of them run and he still bailed for a lesser job. Williams was brought in to reign in the out of control Scuzz was creating with sexual assaults, assistants being forced to take the fall for violations, brawls at clubs, academic standards and performance dropping faster than a rock thrown off the US Bank building and he used donors to win the battle against decency and then left. F that phony hillbilly.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on December 01, 2016, 09:22:46 PM
We ran off a guy who was our second best coach ever and replaced him with a guy who thought Sandy Cohen was better than Deonte Burton. That made a lot of sense.
Ran off? Buzz won, Larry was gone the end of December 2013. Buzz bailed March 2014.
And don't forget, Burton's decision to transfer was personal after his mother passed.
Bert knew how to win but he is a weird f#ck. I mean, a really weird f#ck.
AMF you piece of sh1t.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on December 01, 2016, 09:22:46 PM
We ran off a guy who was our second best coach ever and replaced him with a guy who thought Sandy Cohen was better than Deonte Burton. That made a lot of sense.
Best thing I've ever read.
He was interesting to listen to, not much coach speak. He had a sense of humor and was/is creative, unlike most coaches and most people on Scoop. We went from one extreme to another, typical kneeknee-jerk reaction, an over correction.
buzz came in here as an unknown, he rode in with a beat up station wagon and drove off in a mercedes and a range rover. he captured everyone thru a combo of winning and "buzz-speak" and then we got to know him...the end
Quote from: rocket surgeon on December 02, 2016, 05:03:11 AM
buzz came in here as an unknown, he rode in with a beat up station wagon and drove off in a mercedes and a range rover. he captured everyone thru a combo of winning and "buzz-speak" and then we got to know him...the end
Isn't that what we are about? Or might I say that is what we were about. Now we come in with a BMW and leave with an attitide.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 03:35:58 AM
He was interesting to listen to, not much coach speak. He had a sense of humor and was/is creative, unlike most coaches and most people on Scoop. We went from one extreme to another, typical kneeknee-jerk reaction, an over correction.
It was neither a knee jerk reaction not an over reaction. It was 100% necessary. This isn't Cincinnati or West Virginia. There's a reason Huggins and Bert got along so well. They are one in the same.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 02, 2016, 01:25:44 AM
And yet Scuzz got both of them run and he still bailed for a lesser job. Williams was brought in to reign in the out of control Scuzz was creating with sexual assaults, assistants being forced to take the fall for violations, brawls at clubs, academic standards and performance dropping faster than a rock thrown off the US Bank building and he used donors to win the battle against decency and then left. F that phony hillbilly.
What brawl?
The one where a bunch of players got cited for not drinking in a bar while under the age of 21.
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2016, 07:34:44 AM
The one where a bunch of players got cited for not drinking in a bar while under the age of 21.
I figured that's what he was referencing. The incident where some jackass WI sports radio guys carried the initial report of a brawl that didn't exist. So... He's wrong, is basically where I was going
Crean's a bs'in' mf'er who is badly in need of an enema, hey?
Quote from: #UnleashWally on December 02, 2016, 02:40:27 AM
Best thing I've ever read.
Weird, since it's fake news. Then again, in 2016, I've been told facts don't matter anymore.
In three years, Buzz has turned VT (a program with absolutely zero basketball history and prestige) into a top-25 basketball program and on course to be dancing in March. With the pending retirements of Coach K, Roy Williams, Rick Pitino and Jim Boeheim, Buzz (along with Bennett) appears to be the face of the coaching ranks in the ACC for years to come.
Fans may cry foul and cringe when talking about Buzz, but let's not forget that he did a lot of great things for our school and university while he was here.
Frankly, the fact that Virginia Tech will most likely be going to the NCAA Tournament before Marquette will should speak volumes to where both programs are at right now.
Nice Buzz thread?
Marquette was right to have a better set of expectations for Buzz and the basketball program.
Marquette was wrong to have SP and LW be the ones to communicate and carry out those expectations.
Quote from: GoldenWarrior11 on December 02, 2016, 09:50:57 AM
In three years, Buzz has turned VT (a program with absolutely zero basketball history and prestige) into a top-25 basketball program and on course to be dancing in March. With the pending retirements of Coach K, Roy Williams, Rick Pitino and Jim Boeheim, Buzz (along with Bennett) appears to be the face of the coaching ranks in the ACC for years to come.
Fans may cry foul and cringe when talking about Buzz, but let's not forget that he did a lot of great things for our school and university while he was here.
Frankly, the fact that Virginia Tech will most likely be going to the NCAA Tournament before Marquette will should speak volumes to where both programs are at right now.
Only if you want to ignore a couple of the more unseemly things that occurred during the Buzz regime.
We laugh and chortle when the same ole folks who didn't get their ass kissed the right way tune in with the "Crean sucks" posts. The more I understand what happened under both eras, the more I think that Crean was a MUCH better fit here.
Quote from: keefe on December 02, 2016, 01:42:03 AM
Bert knew how to win but he is a weird f#ck. I mean, a really weird f#ck.
AMF you piece of sh1t.
Keefe, you could say the same thing about about Al. I will take weird over boring milk toast any day of the week.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 02, 2016, 06:34:15 AM
It was neither a knee jerk reaction not an over reaction. It was 100% necessary. This isn't Cincinnati or West Virginia. There's a reason Huggins and Bert got along so well. They are one in the same.
Yea - we are morally superior to everyone else! This is what helps me sleep soundly every night and thoroughly enjoy the last 3 years outside the NCAA tourney.
Seriously there needed to be better tension between what the coach pushed for (and they all push as hard as they can) and what the coach was able to do -- its just that a bunch of dingbats both allowed it to happen and over-reacted when it went poorly.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 02, 2016, 10:02:16 AM
Keefe, you could say the same thing about about Al. I will take weird over boring milk toast any day of the week.
Large tent you have for "weird" when it includes both a colorful NYC personality and a guy who doesn't flush the toilet after defecating.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 02, 2016, 10:00:37 AM
Only if you want to ignore a couple of the more unseemly things that occurred during the Buzz regime.
We laugh and chortle when the same ole folks who didn't get their ass kissed the right way tune in with the "Crean sucks" posts. The more I understand what happened under both eras, the more I think that Crean was a MUCH better fit here.
+1.
But Crean still does suck.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 02, 2016, 10:05:07 AM
Yea - we are morally superior to everyone else! This is what helps me sleep soundly every night and thoroughly enjoy the last 3 years outside the NCAA tourney.
Seriously there needed to be better tension between what the coach pushed for (and they all push as hard as they can) and what the coach was able to do -- its just that a bunch of dingbats both allowed it to happen and over-reacted when it went poorly.
Again, to me, there's a difference between "Boys will be boys" and "Boys will be criminal, and I'll help them cover that up." Some people buy into the "Just win baby" mentality, and as long as that's happening, meh, who cares if the coach wants to bring in kids who start a girl's hair on fire or wants to make sure to get his whole team together to ensure they all have the same story to tell authorities in a sexual assault case involving his players, or refuses to acknowledge any person that isn't directly involved with men's basketball within the athletic department, etc? And that's fine and their right. Me? I want to win, but if it comes down to having a few seasons below the standard Marquette has set for itself on the court before we start winning at that level again in order to clean up the major issues within the basketball program or just continue to become Cinci of the Thuggins days I'll take the couple down seasons before we're back to where we need to be.
Morally superior or just different strokes for different folks, call it what you want. I'll ride that high horse.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 02, 2016, 10:21:32 AM
Again, to me, there's a difference between "Boys will be boys" and "Boys will be criminal, and I'll help them cover that up." Some people buy into the "Just win baby" mentality, and as long as that's happening, meh, who cares if the coach wants to bring in kids who start a girl's hair on fire or wants to make sure to get his whole team together to ensure they all have the same story to tell authorities in a sexual assault case involving his players, or refuses to acknowledge any person that isn't directly involved with men's basketball within the athletic department, etc? And that's fine and their right. Me? I want to win, but if it comes down to having a few seasons below the standard Marquette has set for itself on the court before we start winning at that level again in order to clean up the major issues within the basketball program or just continue to become Cinci of the Thuggins days I'll take the couple down seasons before we're back to where we need to be.
If what you paint above is fact you should be even more angry at Pillarz/admin -- they are the ones who let you down as maybe they should have fired Buzz. What you paint above seems vaguely criminal.
No they didn't, they let it fester and did a bunch of passive aggressive stuff and instituted silly rules that others don't live to...so I dont know the truth & bad things happen in all programs...you just hope the admin responds the right way and continues to compete on a level playing field with the NCAA.
I trust the new admin is doing it the right way.
I've said this before and I will say it again.
Buzz is lucky that the alleged sexual assault incidents occurred in an era prior to Paterno and Briles getting fired. Not because the players were guilty, but because of how he handled the incidents.
For those who kissed Crean's ass or Buzz's ring when they were here and turned on them after they left (because they left) I have zero respect. Climbing on high horses, looking for rationales to explain irrational butt hurt is pathetic.
Those who hated Crean when he was here and still hate him - I agree with your analysis.
Those who hated Buzz when he was here and still hate him - I think you have it wrong but I nonetheless respect your opinion.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 10:52:31 AM
For those who kissed Crean's ass or Buzz's ring when they were here and turned on them after they left (because they left) I have zero respect. Climbing on high horses, looking for rationales to explain irrational butt hurt is pathetic.
Those who hated Crean when he was here and still hate him - I agree with your analysis.
Those who hated Buzz when he was here and still hate him - I think you have it wrong but I nonetheless respect your opinion.
Or maybe we should realize that coaches are human beings complete with positive and negative attributes like the rest of us are.
For instance... I liked the way Buzz's teams played, and I liked his quirky personality, but I didn't like the way the sexual assault issue was handled from the moment it was disclosed. I'm not going to be one of those fans who thinks a coach is God among us and that anything negative during their oversight couldn't possibly have happened. Life doesn't work that way.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 02, 2016, 10:57:58 AM
Or maybe we should realize that coaches are human beings complete with positive and negative attributes like the rest of us are.
For instance... I liked the way Buzz's teams played, and I liked his quirky personality, but I didn't like the way the sexual assault issue was handled from the moment it was disclosed. I'm not going to be one of those fans who thinks a coach is God among us and that anything negative during their oversight couldn't possibly have happened. Life doesn't work that way.
There's nothing wrong with people acknowledging mistakes along with all the good. What I object to is people who want to turn a narrative they've staunchly defended on its head because a guy takes a new job. It says nothing (to me) about the the guy who left but volumes about the butt hurt fan on his imaginary high horse.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 11:06:16 AM
There's nothing wrong with people acknowledging mistakes along with all the good. What I object to is people who want to turn a narrative they've staunchly defended on its head because a guy takes a new job. It says nothing (to me) about the the guy who left but volumes about the butt hurt fan on his imaginary high horse.
Or it says people may have received more details/information since one of the coaches left. I never had any doubt that Bert would try to bend the rules when he could to give him an advantage. When he was here I thought it was solely on the academic side of things, which I couldn't care less about because that's what happens in college athletics, some kids who wouldn't get into some schools end up there because they are gifted athletes and it benefits both sides, and that's great. I refused to believe that the reason for Bert's "final straw" in terms of getting out of MU was that the administration would not let Bert bring in a recruit who lit a girl's hair on fire because while I knew Bert would take advantage of the administration giving him quite a bit of leeway, I didn't think even the slimiest of slimy coaches would see the problem with refusing to allow the kid into MU. I thought that was a Scoop myth and didn't think any coach could be that hard headed in getting his way, but it turned out to absolutely be true, and now the kid gets kicked off of the college that did let him in. Shocking.
But you did get one thing right, some of the things that did happen under Buzz were very much criminal.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 02, 2016, 10:57:58 AM
Or maybe we should realize that coaches are human beings complete with positive and negative attributes like the rest of us are.
For instance... I liked the way Buzz's teams played, and I liked his quirky personality, but I didn't like the way the sexual assault issue was handled from the moment it was disclosed. I'm not going to be one of those fans who thinks a coach is God among us and that anything negative during their oversight couldn't possibly have happened. Life doesn't work that way.
Just to be clear, there were more than one sexual assault incidents under Buzz's watch.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 02, 2016, 11:18:48 AM
But you did get one thing right, some of the things that did happen under Buzz were very much criminal.
OMG. It's been more than 2.5 years since Chico promised (bogusly) that "other shoes would drop". When do you expect Buzz (and the rest of his criminal enterprise) will be heading to the big house?
The only crime he committed was breaking your heart.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 11:31:16 AM
OMG. It's been more than 2.5 years since Chico promised (bogusly) that "other shoes would drop". When do you expect Buzz (and the rest of his criminal enterprise) will be heading to the big house?
The only crime he committed was breaking your heart.
Breaking my heart? I couldn't care less that he left. Good riddance. We're better off without him.
If you're cool with a head coach that is leading 18-22 year old kids that are being molded into men gathering everyone up for dinner at his house to ensure that they all have the same story to tell the authorities when they come and interview them regarding a sexual assault accusation then good on you guy. That's "vaguely criminal" and it's exactly what happened.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 11:31:16 AM
OMG. It's been more than 2.5 years since Chico promised (bogusly) that "other shoes would drop". When do you expect Buzz (and the rest of his criminal enterprise) will be heading to the big house?
The only crime he committed was breaking your heart.
Well, his inaction caused Marquette to be in violation of the law. Close enough?
Quote from: wadesworld on December 02, 2016, 11:34:58 AM
Breaking my heart? I couldn't care less that he left. Good riddance. We're better off without him.
If you're cool with a head coach that is leading 18-22 year old kids that are being molded into men gathering everyone up for dinner at his house to ensure that they all have the same story to tell the authorities when they come and interview them regarding a sexual assault accusation then good on you guy. That's "vaguely criminal" and it's exactly what happened.
And to find out what the alleged victim's story was too.
Crean was, is, and will always be a phony and a fraud masqueradin' as a stellar human bein' and basketball coach. He should kiss DWade's left butt cheek every night for pavin' his driveway in gold bullion. Utterwise, he's accomplished absolutely nothin', ai na?
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/how-buzz-williams-has-transformed-long-struggling-virginia-tech-231137300.html
Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2016, 12:35:24 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/how-buzz-williams-has-transformed-long-struggling-virginia-tech-231137300.html
"There was nothing that transpired at Marquette that made me want to leave, not the administrative changes there or anything relative to the league," Williams said.
::)
Hes got them drinking the kool-aid down there, it was mostly about the money, but hia roots
story still plays well. If not for coaching,he'd make a great con man.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 02, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
"There was nothing that transpired at Marquette that made me want to leave, not the administrative changes there or anything relative to the league," Williams said.
::)
Buzz taking the high road - nothing wrong with that.
Here's the thing - when he had to entirely remake his roster by year 3 at Marquette (and made the tournament) it was remarkable but some said, "It's Marquette!" Looks like he may do the same thing in freakin' Blacksburg, Va.
Imagine where we would be if Wojo had to totally rebuild his roster in 3 years. Without Luke, JJJ and Duane we would be bottom feeders battling St Johns and DePaul for the basement. Even with them we're likely not as good right now as "no tradition, how could he even consider the job" Va Tech. The guy knows what he's doing much better than his critics here.
Buzz still needs to prove he will be a a legendary coach.
As it stands now, he can turn around programs. But legendary status is achieved when he becomes an immovable and beloved figure at an institution who can handle the heat and deflect the bullets even at the worse times, i.e., Boeheim.
But I think it's not in his blood.
He likes to move.
VT is NOT a destination program.
He's leaving in 2-3 years.
Right when the Coal Factories start kicking up the dust in the air.
Of course he is a good coach. Best since Al. That isn't in doubt.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 02:33:12 PM
Buzz taking the high road - nothing wrong with that.
Here's the thing - when he had to entirely remake his roster by year 3 at Marquette (and made the tournament) it was remarkable but some said, "It's Marquette!" Looks like he may do the same thing in freakin' Blacksburg, Va.
Imagine where we would be if Wojo had to totally rebuild his roster in 3 years. Without Luke, JJJ and Duane we would be bottom feeders battling St Johns and DePaul for the basement. Even with them we're likely not as good right now as "no tradition, how could he even consider the job" Va Tech. The guy knows what he's doing much better than his critics here.
I agree with most of what you say regarding Buzz but this is just not fair. Wojo DID have to completely rebuild his roster. He had to rebuild this roster as much as Buzz had to rebuild Va Tech's roster.
Wojo had 8 players in his first year once the dust settled, and 3 of those were seniors (Juan, Derrick, Carlino). He had a freshman (Sandy) that he HAD to sign just because he needed players. He had JJ...that's true, but JJ was not a good player when Wojo got here, and I have my doubts that he'd be a good player now if Buzz stayed. Wojo and staff's reconstruction of JJ's shot is the main reason that he's a good player.
Also, Wojo has done a really good job of filling needs so far given what he had left, and it's not fair to say "Without Luke, JJJ, Duane then we would be bottom feeders", because he knew he didn't have to recruit to replace those guys. If he had to recruit to those positions, we probably would have another quality center and wing on the roster. Just like he adequately filled the PG and SG position in 2 years, he likely would have done the same at SF and C
Duane is good and I like him, but the team wouldn't be much different in quality without him.
Edit: If Wojo makes the tournament here in year 3, I'd argue it's just as big of an accomplishment as Buzz making it in year 3, given what both had left on their roster.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 02, 2016, 12:37:43 PM
"There was nothing that transpired at Marquette that made me want to leave, not the administrative changes there or anything relative to the league," Williams said.
::)
I cannot hear the word relative in that context without feeling a little nauseous.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on December 02, 2016, 02:36:11 PM
VT is NOT a destination program.
He's leaving in 2-3 years.
Right when the Coal Factories start kicking up the dust in the air.
Marquette is NOT a destination program either. Al was gone but for coaching in an era when contracts actually mattered. Even at that he changed careers rather than coaching at MU into his 50s.
Quote from: T-Bone on December 02, 2016, 02:52:09 PM
I cannot hear the word relative in that context without feeling a little nauseous.
Ya don't mean dat in a bad way, do ya, hey?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 02:33:12 PM
Buzz taking the high road - nothing wrong with that.
Here's the thing - when he had to entirely remake his roster by year 3 at Marquette (and made the tournament) it was remarkable but some said, "It's Marquette!" Looks like he may do the same thing in freakin' Blacksburg, Va.
Imagine where we would be if Wojo had to totally rebuild his roster in 3 years. Without Luke, JJJ and Duane we would be bottom feeders battling St Johns and DePaul for the basement. Even with them we're likely not as good right now as "no tradition, how could he even consider the job" Va Tech. The guy knows what he's doing much better than his critics here.
This is true. People on Scoop are not very good at tampering.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 02, 2016, 10:00:37 AM
Only if you want to ignore a couple of the more unseemly things that occurred during the Buzz regime.
We laugh and chortle when the same ole folks who didn't get their ass kissed the right way tune in with the "Crean sucks" posts. The more I understand what happened under both eras, the more I think that Crean was a MUCH better fit here.
Sultan
I respect your perspective and rather enjoy your caustic take on things. But let me say that I have first hand knowledge of Crean's outrageous behavior and unacceptable treatment of others.
Tom Crean's lack of concern, consideration, and respect for those around him, indeed those who contributed to his success, had no place in a Jesuit institution.
Buzz likely doesn't know where the line is and, in any event, is an extremely bizarre person. Crean knows where the line is but simply doesn't give a sh1t.
Buzz is a class act, the only problem is that he is not the class to which most Marquette Scoopers aspire. Marquette suffers from an inferiority complex, that is why the hireing of ND, Gerogetown, Duke types. The days of looking at a dude from the Rockaways or Belmont Abbey are long gone.
Lets face it, we have become, in our unique way, snobs. Therefore, all the Buzz hate, I am really glad that Buzz has found a loving home at VT, good for him.
I hope that MU can become BC lite or Duke like, however, I have my doubts.
Lets concentrate on the game at hand and show Buzz the respect that he continues to show Marquette. Before Buzz we were a very long time in the wilderness, without him we would have been there for a much longer time. I hope we can pull off the Duke corporate image successfully, if not, back to the wilderness.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 03:58:17 PM
Buzz is a class act, the only problem is that he is not the class to which most Marquette Scoopers aspire. Marquette suffers from an inferiority complex, that is why the hireing of ND, Gerogetown, Duke types. The days of looking at a dude from the Rockaways or Belmont Abbey are long gone.
Lets face it, we have become, in our unique way, snobs. Therefore, all the Buzz hate, I am really glad that Buzz has found a loving home at VT, good for him.
I hope that MU can become BC lite or Duke like, however, I have my doubts.
Lets concentrate on the game at hand and show Buzz the respect that he continues to show Marquette. Before Buzz we were a very long time in the wilderness, without him we would have been there for a much longer time. I hope we can pull off the Duke corporate image successfully, if not, back to the wilderness.
Good God. MU went to the final four in 2003, some wilderness.
Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on December 01, 2016, 09:22:46 PM
We ran off a guy who was our second best coach ever and replaced him with a guy who thought Sandy Cohen was better than Deonte Burton. That made a lot of sense.
I'm sure it's that simple.
Quote from: keefe on December 02, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
Sultan
I respect your perspective and rather enjoy your caustic take on things. But let me say that I have first hand knowledge of Crean's outrageous behavior and unacceptable treatment of others.
Tom Crean's lack of concern, consideration, and respect for those around him, indeed those who contributed to his success, had no place in a Jesuit institution.
Buzz likely doesn't know where the line is and, in any event, is an extremely bizarre person. Crean knows where the line is but simply doesn't give a sh1t.
Interesting how you equivocate on both people doing bad things but give one a pass. Then again, no shock a guy like you has a flexible line in the sand.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 03:58:17 PM
Buzz is a class act, the only problem is that he is not the class to which most Marquette Scoopers aspire. Marquette suffers from an inferiority complex, that is why the hireing of ND, Gerogetown, Duke types. The days of looking at a dude from the Rockaways or Belmont Abbey are long gone.
Lets face it, we have become, in our unique way, snobs. Therefore, all the Buzz hate, I am really glad that Buzz has found a loving home at VT, good for him.
I hope that MU can become BC lite or Duke like, however, I have my doubts.
Lets concentrate on the game at hand and show Buzz the respect that he continues to show Marquette. Before Buzz we were a very long time in the wilderness, without him we would have been there for a much longer time. I hope we can pull off the Duke corporate image successfully, if not, back to the wilderness.
Scooping a heavy load of this bull$hit all day must hurt your back.
Quote from: RJax55 on December 02, 2016, 04:11:07 PM
Good God. MU went to the final four in 2003, some wilderness.
One trip does not a epoch make. And if I recall, we got blown out?
Patience has not been a strong suit of the MU program that I have been watching for the past 50 years. We have had some great coaches but their image did not suit our self image. The last time we had that valuable quality patience was for Al.
Back in the 60's we had our share of scandals that were covered up, I was part of two of them. What's so new about the behavior of Buzz? His crime was that he did not fit the image of the BOT.
The message that I hear is that underprivilege hillbillies need not apply, be them rural or urban hillbillies. We are better than that, we are Marquette.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 04:36:55 PM
One trip does not a epoch make. And if I recall, we got blown out?
Patience has not been a strong suit of the MU program that I have been watching for the past 50 years. We have had some great coaches but their image did not suit our self image. The last time we had that valuable quality patience was for Al.
Back in the 60's we had our share of scandals that were covered up, I was part of two of them. What's so new about the behavior of Buzz? His crime was that he did not fit the image of the BOT.
The message that I hear is that underprivilege hillbillies need not apply, be them rural or urban hillbillies. We are better than that, we are Marquette.
HMMMMMM????????
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Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 04:36:55 PM
One trip does not a epoch make. And if I recall, we got blown out?
Patience has not been a strong suit of the MU program that I have been watching for the past 50 years. We have had some great coaches but their image did not suit our self image. The last time we had that valuable quality patience was for Al.
Back in the 60's we had our share of scandals that were covered up, I was part of two of them. What's so new about the behavior of Buzz? His crime was that he did not fit the image of the BOT.
The message that I hear is that underprivilege hillbillies need not apply, be them rural or urban hillbillies. We are better than that, we are Marquette.
So covering up scandals is part of MU. I guess we are not better than that.
Seriously, stop and reread what you're posting. Absolutely idiotic.
Elephant in a well picture watch has officially started
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 04:36:55 PM
One trip does not a epoch make. And if I recall, we got blown out?
Patience has not been a strong suit of the MU program that I have been watching for the past 50 years. We have had some great coaches but their image did not suit our self image. The last time we had that valuable quality patience was for Al.
Back in the 60's we had our share of scandals that were covered up, I was part of two of them. What's so new about the behavior of Buzz? His crime was that he did not fit the image of the BOT.
The message that I hear is that underprivilege hillbillies need not apply, be them rural or urban hillbillies. We are better than that, we are Marquette.
So, you were da cat who paid da rent at da Catholic Knights buildin', hey?
Here is my continued perspective and perhaps a more accurate version of history to consider.
Marquette University was in violation of both federal and local laws, on not just this one incident, but hundreds. Our ire should be primarily directed there. A slew of people were fired and/or displaced.
Buzz Williams was not the reason Pilarz was fired from Marquette University. MU was so disgusted with the direction of the university, they paid severance to a vow of poverty Jesuit and his Posse to go away, leaving their critical leadership spots open for a good part of a year. Think about that.
The university and AD were in serious financial trouble. Major donors were alienated. Pilarz chose to teach poetry class instead of fundraise and execute a strategic plan. His personal peccadilloes were interesting.
Larry Williams was a capable administrator, especially in compliance and legal matters. He had no strategic vision in regard to sports like lacrosse where he publically questioned the investment. His public persona was ham handed. His legal acumen helped in the Big East although Broeker (and Cottingham) laid much of that groundwork. Larry couldn't fundraise and his management style was respected by some and fractured with others.
Terri Mitchell had her own problems, unrelated to Buzz. One could contend a scandal that would much more damning than Buzz's. One that came out later.
Buzz was a bi-polar nut case. But, there was no cover up like at Penn State or Norte Dame. The case was adjudicated through the university as was chosen by the student. Players were penalized and/or eventually expelled as they were found guilt of harassment. Everyone in the university leadership knew of the incident and the verdict of the panel. After that process, the dissatisfied student decided to go to the authorities where there was no charges pressed after a too late investigation. There was no cover up or criminal charges. But the university was in severe violation of the law on this and every case reported.
The coaching staff was in error for gathering the troops. But since the university policy was flawed that would have covered the coaches' behavior, they were not in violation of the inforce federal law nor were they trained and certified. Thus, goodbye AD and a few others above.
Despite what some say, Buzz didn't want to lose that last season, he wanted to prove he could even win with that crew. He literally lost it and his team. Cords foreshadowed his departure way in advance. But is was Buzz's hand but not too many were disappointed to clean the entire mess with one last flush.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2016, 06:13:27 PM
The university and AD were in serious financial trouble. Major donors were alienated. Pilarz chose to teach poetry class instead of fundraise and execute a strategic plan. His personal peccadilloes were interesting.
Sure were.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2016, 06:13:27 PMBut is was Buzz's hand but not too many were disappointed to clean the entire mess with one last flush.
By a manager, hey?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 02, 2016, 06:13:27 PM
Here is my continued perspective and perhaps a more accurate version of history to consider.
Marquette University was in violation of both federal and local laws, on not just this one incident, but hundreds. Our ire should be primarily directed there. A slew of people were fired and/or displaced.
Buzz Williams was not the reason Pilarz was fired from Marquette University. MU was so disgusted with the direction of the university, they paid severance to a vow of poverty Jesuit and his Posse to go away, leaving their critical leadership spots open for a good part of a year. Think about that.
The university and AD were in serious financial trouble. Major donors were alienated. Pilarz chose to teach poetry class instead of fundraise and execute a strategic plan. His personal peccadilloes were interesting.
Larry Williams was a capable administrator, especially in compliance and legal matters. He had no strategic vision in regard to sports like lacrosse where he publically questioned the investment. His public persona was ham handed. His legal acumen helped in the Big East although Broeker (and Cottingham) laid much of that groundwork. Larry couldn't fundraise and his management style was respected by some and fractured with others.
Terri Mitchell had her own problems, unrelated to Buzz. One could contend a scandal that would much more damning than Buzz's. One that came out later.
Buzz was a bi-polar nut case. But, there was no cover up like at Penn State or Norte Dame. The case was adjudicated through the university as was chosen by the student. Players were penalized and/or eventually expelled as they were found guilt of harassment. Everyone in the university leadership knew of the incident and the verdict of the panel. After that process, the dissatisfied student decided to go to the authorities where there was no charges pressed after a too late investigation. There was no cover up or criminal charges. But the university was in severe violation of the law on this and every case reported.
The coaching staff was in error for gathering the troops. But since the university policy was flawed that would have covered the coaches' behavior, they were not in violation of the inforce federal law nor were they trained and certified. Thus, goodbye AD and a few others above.
Despite what some say, Buzz didn't want to lose that last season, he wanted to prove he could even win with that crew. He literally lost it and his team. Cords foreshadowed his departure way in advance. But is was Buzz's hand but not too many were disappointed to clean the entire mess with one last flush.
I wouldn't mind further detail, including names, of the bolded as I apparently am not privy to the insider info that apparently was known by many. PM would be fine. From the good Dr., or anyone else. As it has all played out and there is, to my knowledge, no current investigations going on, I don't see the harm in asking for the further details.
Edit: Oh, also the recruit with girl on fire.
Ok I officially regret starting this thread.
Of all the stuff I have read in the news and heard third hand here...I'm just not close enough to pass judgement or know the actual facts.
But I sincerely hope there will be justice. I have a close relative who was assaulted (not at MU) and it's an evil hurtful thing.
Until I know first hand, I've decided Buzz was just the MU coach when I first became a fan and gave me some good fun tourney memories. Wojo I expect will do the same.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 03:58:17 PM
Buzz is a class act, the only problem is that he is not the class to which most Marquette Scoopers aspire. Marquette suffers from an inferiority complex, that is why the hireing of ND, Gerogetown, Duke types. The days of looking at a dude from the Rockaways or Belmont Abbey are long gone.
Lets face it, we have become, in our unique way, snobs. Therefore, all the Buzz hate, I am really glad that Buzz has found a loving home at VT, good for him.
I hope that MU can become BC lite or Duke like, however, I have my doubts.
Lets concentrate on the game at hand and show Buzz the respect that he continues to show Marquette. Before Buzz we were a very long time in the wilderness, without him we would have been there for a much longer time. I hope we can pull off the Duke corporate image successfully, if not, back to the wilderness.
Whaaat, really????? Teal right??
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 10:45:06 PM
Why?
I didn't hate on Buzz, but class act? Really?? Maybe we have different views of what class act is.
All right gang, this conversation is ridiculous.
You all are forgetting that the Hillbilly is gone, Like it or not, he's in Virginia. In case you have forgotten, he dissed us and our conference on the way out. Bush league would be a nice way of describing his thoughts about Marquette and the Big East.
Since then, we've had a national championship in our conference and a good number of NCAA berths. I'll concede we're not one of them but then if the Hillbilly was introspective, he'd realize he was a major factor in where we are now. You cannot argue that, no matter how hard you try.
Too many people want to go back. While I want to be an elite 8 team or better again, the Hillbilly is gone and now amount of complaining is going to bring him back. For that matter, also gone is Al, Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill. We can't get any of them back (last time someone rose from the dead was 2000 years ago) and instead we should focus on what we have and what we are. Coach Wojo may not be turning around the train wreck the Hillbilly left us fast enough for some of you, but I like the effort and the recruiting he has shown. We may need some fine tuning but we're on the right track. The locomotive is righted and the pieces are slowly coming together.
Let's hope that five years from now, the Hillbilly will be in the ACC cellar wondering why he ever left the reigning National Champion Marquette Warriors.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 02, 2016, 03:58:17 PM
Buzz is a class act, the only problem is that he is not the class to which most Marquette Scoopers aspire. Marquette suffers from an inferiority complex, that is why the hireing of ND, Gerogetown, Duke types. The days of looking at a dude from the Rockaways or Belmont Abbey are long gone.
Lets face it, we have become, in our unique way, snobs. Therefore, all the Buzz hate, I am really glad that Buzz has found a loving home at VT, good for him.
I hope that MU can become BC lite or Duke like, however, I have my doubts.
Lets concentrate on the game at hand and show Buzz the respect that he continues to show Marquette. Before Buzz we were a very long time in the wilderness, without him we would have been there for a much longer time. I hope we can pull off the Duke corporate image successfully, if not, back to the wilderness.
Lol.
Quote from: Newsdrms on December 02, 2016, 10:52:15 PM
I didn't hate on Buzz, but class act? Really?? Maybe we have different views of what class act is.
Buzz's Bunch, tough but clean players, "the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker", his friendship with the homeless dude, his work ethic, his respect for (and from) those who mentored him, etc., etc., etc..
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 02, 2016, 11:12:27 PM
All right gang, this conversation is ridiculous.
You all are forgetting that the Hillbilly is gone, Like it or not, he's in Virginia. In case you have forgotten, he dissed us and our conference on the way out. Bush league would be a nice way of describing his thoughts about Marquette and the Big East.
Since then, we've had a national championship in our conference and a good number of NCAA berths. I'll concede we're not one of them but then if the Hillbilly was introspective, he'd realize he was a major factor in where we are now. You cannot argue that, no matter how hard you try.
Too many people want to go back. While I want to be an elite 8 team or better again, the Hillbilly is gone and now amount of complaining is going to bring him back. For that matter, also gone is Al, Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill. We can't get any of them back (last time someone rose from the dead was 2000 years ago) and instead we should focus on what we have and what we are. Coach Wojo may not be turning around the train wreck the Hillbilly left us fast enough for some of you, but I like the effort and the recruiting he has shown. We may need some fine tuning but we're on the right track. The locomotive is righted and the pieces are slowly coming together.
Let's hope that five years from now, the Hillbilly will be in the ACC cellar wondering why he ever left the reigning National Champion Marquette Warriors.
This conversation isn't ridiculous. Your post is.
Guys love or hate Buzz for a ton of different reasons and I get that. All I can say is that he came the closest to making us the real deal than any coach since Al. In addition, the style of ball they played was very close to what I would love to watch every game.
Said it at the time and will say it again, Buzz brought excitement to the program and came close to putting us back on the map. He and KO get a pay on the back from this fan for what they did for the program.
Quote from: Goose on December 03, 2016, 02:10:23 AM
Guys love or hate Buzz for a ton of different reasons and I get that. All I can say is that he came the closest to making us the real deal than any coach since Al. In addition, the style of ball they played was very close to what I would love to watch every game.
Said it at the time and will say it again, Buzz brought excitement to the program and came close to putting us back on the map. He and KO get a pay on the back from this fan for what they did for the program.
WTF, Joe? You must be in China now because I doubt you're surfing Scoop at 0300 CST.
Quote from: Goose on December 03, 2016, 02:10:23 AM
Guys love or hate Buzz for a ton of different reasons and I get that. All I can say is that he came the closest to making us the real deal than any coach since Al. In addition, the style of ball they played was very close to what I would love to watch every game.
Said it at the time and will say it again, Buzz brought excitement to the program and came close to putting us back on the map. He and KO get a pay on the back from this fan for what they did for the program.
We could add Rick to the list and find another coach who did not fit the image. Now we have the image so all we have to do is win.
Really, Rick? Back in da dey I worked side by side wit Rick for 2 summers. He cut his teeth on da MU job. Became a much better coach after his silent firin'. Felt too much pressure to succeed at his alma mater. Program was on a decline wit Hank and took da slippery slope after Wolf and Olson chose utter programs, ai na?
Quote from: Goose on December 03, 2016, 02:10:23 AM
Guys love or hate Buzz for a ton of different reasons and I get that. All I can say is that he came the closest to making us the real deal than any coach since Al. In addition, the style of ball they played was very close to what I would love to watch every game.
Said it at the time and will say it again, Buzz brought excitement to the program and came close to putting us back on the map. He and KO get a pay on the back from this fan for what they did for the program.
I agree with your thoughts. I think he did put us back on the map. Buzz has personality. Pretty much all the press says about Wojo is he played for and sat next to Coach K. On the other hand, Wojo is probably what the BOT wants, clean cut guy who will not create any waves.
Quote from: Goose on December 03, 2016, 02:10:23 AM
Guys love or hate Buzz for a ton of different reasons and I get that. All I can say is that he came the closest to making us the real deal than any coach since Al. In addition, the style of ball they played was very close to what I would love to watch every game.
Said it at the time and will say it again, Buzz brought excitement to the program and came close to putting us back on the map. He and KO get a pay on the back from this fan for what they did for the program.
This is a great take. Particularly the part about fun to watch. Except the last season, that stretch was the most fun to watch group of MU teams in my MU fan tenure.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 02, 2016, 10:21:32 AM
Again, to me, there's a difference between "Boys will be boys" and "Boys will be criminal, and I'll help them cover that up." Some people buy into the "Just win baby" mentality, and as long as that's happening, meh, who cares if the coach wants to bring in kids who start a girl's hair on fire or wants to make sure to get his whole team together to ensure they all have the same story to tell authorities in a sexual assault case involving his players, or refuses to acknowledge any person that isn't directly involved with men's basketball within the athletic department, etc? And that's fine and their right. Me? I want to win, but if it comes down to having a few seasons below the standard Marquette has set for itself on the court before we start winning at that level again in order to clean up the major issues within the basketball program or just continue to become Cinci of the Thuggins days I'll take the couple down seasons before we're back to where we need to be.
Morally superior or just different strokes for different folks, call it what you want. I'll ride that high horse.
What makes you think we're only going to have a few subpar seasons and then start winning [commensurate to the level at which Buzz won]? Wojo hasn't shown any real coaching chops and made a big mistake in taking HE which is costing the program a lot right now.
I wonder how Buzz would handle a similar situation now? I am not going to defend how he handled it. He clearly messed up. But, having learned his lesson, and with new procedures in place at the institutional level, isn't it likely it would go differently? The one thing we know about Buzz is that he is constantly learning.
Ah, well, water under the bridge. He is gone, Wojo is here. For better or worse. Hopefully, a couple of years down the road, we can be debating whether Wojo is the best coach in the Big East and whether he takes over at Duke when K retires.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 03, 2016, 09:23:48 AM
I agree with your thoughts. I think he did put us back on the map. Buzz has personality. Pretty much all the press says about Wojo is he played for and sat next to Coach K. On the other hand, Wojo is probably what the BOT wants, clean cut guy who will not create any waves.
What the BOT wants, the BOT gets.
Did Wojo ever talk with Coach K?
Does Wojo ever talk with his assistants, or do they just sit there next to him?
Quote from: keefe on December 03, 2016, 12:26:54 AM
I didn't give anyone a free pass.
What the f#ck is your problem? Still curled up in the fetal position since The Crooked One was rightfully consigned to the trash heap of history?
Eek. Sensitive little guy in the small hours of the day.
Quote from: tower912 on December 03, 2016, 09:47:53 AM
I wonder how Buzz would handle a similar situation now? I am not going to defend how he handled it. He clearly messed up. But, having learned his lesson, and with new procedures in place at the institutional level, isn't it likely it would go differently? The one thing we know about Buzz is that he is constantly learning.
Ah, well, water under the bridge. He is gone, Wojo is here. For better or worse. Hopefully, a couple of years down the road, we can be debating whether Wojo is the best coach in the Big East and whether he takes over at Duke when K retires.
Good point about the institutional changes, which leaves Buzz as a typical scapegoat, and the BOT riding the white stallion.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 03, 2016, 10:03:05 AM
Good point about the institutional changes, which leaves Buzz as a typical scapegoat, and the BOT riding the white stallion.
Right, so what I understand from all of this, the Chicago Tribune article, the scandal, and rules established PRIOR TO BUZZ'S ARRIVAL, is that those rules were what was changed post-scandal. So leaders at MU had rules in place that had to be changed to comply with federal law. Now, who is at fault for having those rules on the books? Is it Buzz? I'm thinking not...
Quote from: goinUptown on December 03, 2016, 10:15:35 AM
Right, so what I understand from all of this, the Chicago Tribune article, the scandal, and rules established PRIOR TO BUZZ'S ARRIVAL, is that those rules were what was changed post-scandal. So leaders at MU had rules in place that had to be changed to comply with federal law. Now, who is at fault for having those rules on the books? Is it Buzz? I'm thinking not...
Right. Which is why they fired the athletic director who used to be the General Counsel. They also kept Buzz around. He survived the LW regime, but wasn't comfortable with Cords and the Presidential vacancy and the boundaries that the BOT wanted on the program.
Regardless, this is the same sort of bullsh*t thinking that has people excusing both Paterno and Briles. Anyone should know that what he did was wrong. You don't need an institutional policy to outline that.
To tower's point, I have no doubts that he learned from this. He's not a dumb guy.
Quote from: goinUptown on December 03, 2016, 09:42:20 AM
What makes you think we're only going to have a few subpar seasons and then start winning [commensurate to the level at which Buzz won]? Wojo hasn't shown any real coaching chops and made a big mistake in taking HE which is costing the program a lot right now.
Henry isn't costing the program anything. That's nonsense.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 03, 2016, 10:36:26 AM
Henry isn't costing the program anything. That's nonsense.
Sure would be great to have had a PF with a year under his belt this year. And don't forget about those we lost given even slightest bit of uncertainty about whether HE goes pro after frosh year. My guess, and I hope I'm wrong: We miss the Big Dance this year and in great part due to being short a PF. Looks like we'll do well against smaller lineups, not so much against Michigans of the world.
4ever
Spot on about Rick.
Keefe
Sadly I am in Milwaukee and could not sleep. No China until first week of 2017.
Quote from: goinUptown on December 03, 2016, 10:59:20 AM
Sure would be great to have had a PF with a year under his belt this year. And don't forget about those we lost given even slightest bit of uncertainty about whether HE goes pro after frosh year. My guess, and I hope I'm wrong: We miss the Big Dance this year and in great part due to being short a PF. Looks like we'll do well against smaller lineups, not so much against Michigans of the world.
So the problem with this season is that we lack a lower quality player as a power forward. Yeah I don't think so.
It's only one of our many problems this year. But the probability of making the Big Dance increases significantly with even a serviceable PF with a year under his belt in Wojo's system.
Quote from: goinUptown on December 03, 2016, 11:15:30 AM
It's only one of our many problems this year. But the probability of making the Big Dance increases significantly with even a serviceable PF with a year under his belt in Wojo's system.
Hauser is looking damn good to me.
Right, Hauser looks great. He's a freshman, of, course, but he looks like he will be a great one.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 03, 2016, 10:36:26 AM
Henry isn't costing the program anything. That's nonsense.
O.K., let's take a vote on that one.
Quote from: vogue65 on December 03, 2016, 12:59:06 PM
O.K., let's take a vote on that one.
He's not costing the program anything.
Possible scenarios:
- Wojo doesn't recruit him and the Scoop b@tchers complain that Wojo can't recruit and let the best WI prospect go.
- Scoopers feel other recruits passed us by because there was 'uncertainty' about Henry's Soph year when in fact the only people who thought there may be a Soph year are Scoopers
- Scoopers blame Henry for not coming back for a Soph year
- Wojo recruits, and lands, a top player that literally ANY program in the country would've taken.
Is there really any answer but the last?
Quote from: vogue65 on December 03, 2016, 12:59:06 PM
O.K., let's take a vote on that one.
OK, I vote with Sultan on that. In fact, I vote that his one year here is still paying dividends.
Quote from: Goose on December 03, 2016, 11:01:13 AM
Keefe
Sadly I am in Milwaukee and could not sleep. No China until first week of 2017.
Doing some stuff with PowerChina. Are you going to be in Beijing late Jan?
Quote from: keefe on December 03, 2016, 03:51:04 PM
Doing some stuff with PowerChina. Are you going to be in Beijing late Jan?
sounds like a C level rapper or top flight stripper. why are you inviting Goose?
Quote from: vogue65 on December 03, 2016, 12:59:06 PM
O.K., let's take a vote on that one.
The argument would be that from a player perspective, Henry may have cost us Gabe Levin and Kyle Washington. On the court, he maybe cost us the DePaul and Georgetown games.
However, he gave us the positive exposure of a first round pick and without him we likely lose to Arizona State, Wisconsin, Providence (twice), Creighton, and Georgetown. Nothing against Levin, but we probably go 16-17 last year if he's here instead of Henry.
My vote is that he's still a net positive, despite some of the minor frustrations he gave us.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 11:43:36 PM
Buzz's Bunch, tough but clean players, "the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker", his friendship with the homeless dude, his work ethic, his respect for (and from) those who mentored him, etc., etc., etc..
All PR for him.
Quote from: keefe on December 02, 2016, 03:47:21 PM
Sultan
I respect your perspective and rather enjoy your caustic take on things. But let me say that I have first hand knowledge of Crean's outrageous behavior and unacceptable treatment of others.
Tom Crean's lack of concern, consideration, and respect for those around him, indeed those who contributed to his success, had no place in a Jesuit institution.
Buzz likely doesn't know where the line is and, in any event, is an extremely bizarre person. Crean knows where the line is but simply doesn't give a sh1t.
As do I. No doubt his and his wife's ego got WAY out of control. However, I have first hand knowledge from people inside and outside MU that Buzz and family became far worse than TC ever did and people were longing for the days of TC and Joani. They all LOVE Wojo and Mrs. Wojo, nothing but positives.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 03, 2016, 08:06:46 PM
All PR for him.
Right. Al Copone donated tons of money to charities. I don't think he was a saint.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 03, 2016, 08:11:16 PM
As do I. No doubt his and his wife's ego got WAY out of control. However, I have first hand knowledge from people inside and outside MU that Buzz and family became far worse than TC ever did and people were longing for the days of TC and Joani. They all LOVE Wojo and Mrs. Wojo, nothing but positives.
Although I really liked Buzz and wish we made it work with him, I've also heard from People Who Know Things that Buzz became an entitled terror. Maybe that's the price of admission for great coaching (a la Harbaugh) but Buzz was definitely a weiner.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 03, 2016, 08:06:46 PM
All PR for him.
Sour grapes after the fact must taste bad.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 09:51:42 PM
Sour grapes after the fact must taste bad.
It can be sour grapes and still be true.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on December 03, 2016, 08:11:16 PM
As do I. No doubt his and his wife's ego got WAY out of control. However, I have first hand knowledge from people inside and outside MU that Buzz and family became far worse than TC ever did and people were longing for the days of TC and Joani. They all LOVE Wojo and Mrs. Wojo, nothing but positives.
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 03, 2016, 09:02:40 AM
Really, Rick? Back in da dey I worked side by side wit Rick for 2 summers. He cut his teeth on da MU job. Became a much better coach after his silent firin'. Felt too much pressure to succeed at his alma mater. Program was on a decline wit Hank and took da slippery slope after Wolf and Olson chose utter programs, ai na?
If Duane Johnson was able to stay eligible, things would have turned out differently for Rick. People forget how good Johnson was.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 10:07:13 PM
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
It's not revisionist history. Some of these issues were mentioned here before he left.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 10:07:13 PM
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
You were reading and seeing the mirage and hearing what you wanted.
It's not revisionist, it's human. That which I have now is always better then that which I have had and suffered through. For the contrarian, it is the exact opposite which is where you come in. You disliked Crean for the near entirety of his tenure in Milwaukee and Buzz, success or not, was always going to live in a favorable light. That light became saintly with his on court success.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on December 03, 2016, 10:28:44 PM
You were reading and seeing the mirage and hearing what you wanted.
It's not revisionist, it's human. That which I have now is always better then that which I have had and suffered through. For the contrarian, it is the exact opposite which is where you come in. You disliked Crean for the near entirety of his tenure in Milwaukee and Buzz, success or not, was always going to live in a favorable light. That light became saintly with his on court success.
"Saintly", no. But otherwise mostly accurate, Lanche.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 10:07:13 PM
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
Ill admit I saw through his shtick early on? I went to a CIRCLES event with him where he did his "aw shucks, I'm just a country bumpkin" routine, back peddled on whether he'd leave MU, then hustled out before any of the 250 or so who attended just to meet him could do so.
Yes, people at MU were happy to be done with Crean, they thought it couldn't get worse. It did. Crean never had staff bring him his meals course by course.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 10:07:13 PM
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
Ding Ding. The Athletic department tired of TC . Buzz was generally well liked. Unfortunately, many MU fans struggle with any coach who leaves. You are right, Wojo will go at some point and he will be a scumbag also.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 10:07:13 PM
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
There were plenty of people who questioned various things while Buzz was still here and successful:
- Newbill situation
- Alleged assault charges and subsequent alleged cover-up
- Monterale Clark recruitment
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2016, 10:07:13 PM
Revisionist history. All I ever read, saw or heard the first 5 years Buzz was here was how great he, his wife and his family were. People were SO happy to be done with Crean, his wife and the Harbaugh ego/power trip. Finally, a real and genuine guy and family running things! Then he left - and so became the devil incarnate. And now we LOVE Wojo - until he fails or leaves. If we drop him, he'll be a good guy but a failure. If he drops us, he'll be the phony button down preppy from Duke. So it goes.
Are we reaching consensus? Is the "hillbilly" hate coming to an end, can we end the class warfare?
Perhaps not, we may just like to argue and feel superior. Extreme position are easy to take, balanced, pramatic, objective understanding is much more difficult to attain.
I always wonder if Scoop is skewed because of to many lawyers and engineers or if it something else.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 04, 2016, 12:51:58 AM
Ding Ding. The Athletic department tired of TC . Buzz was generally well liked. Unfortunately, many MU fans struggle with any coach who leaves. You are right, Wojo will go at some point and he will be a scumbag also.
You sure about that?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2016, 11:53:16 PM
This conversation isn't ridiculous. Your post is.
Lenny, let me try to explain this in a way you'll understand then.
Today's post is brought to you by the Letters "G", "T" and "N".
"G" is for Gone, as in, "Buzz Williams has been gone for three years now."
"T" is for Train wreck, as in, "Buzz Williams' last season at Marquette was a train wreck."
"N" is for Not coming back," as in, "Buzz Williams is not coming back to Marquette."
The point of both my posts is that it is time to move on. I thought, as I noted, that Buzz showed an incredible lack of class when he left Marquette. That bothered me but not enough to dwell on it for three years.
It's amazing that we have six takes on Buzz comments. Let it go people! Let's argue about Luke's continuing foul trouble, whether we make the tournament or even what the university should do if we don't.
The noted philosopher/financier, Kevin O'Leary (aka Mr. Wonderful) repeatedly sums up my advice to all who dwell on Buzz Williams:
"He's dead to me!"
He should be to all of you too!
The rank and file staff got along ok with Buzz, but he was a weird dude. He and his wife were paranoid as hell. His wife would scour the Internet for anything written about Buzz. She wouldn't take to kindly to anything negative. This was well known. I wouldn't doubt she is reading this thread.
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 04, 2016, 09:01:18 AM
The rank and file staff got along ok with Buzz, but he was a weird dude. He and his wife were paranoid as hell. His wife would scour the Internet for anything written about Buzz. She wouldn't take to kindly to anything negative. This was well known. I wouldn't doubt she is reading this thread.
Buzz is married to Chico's?
Quote from: real chili 83 on December 04, 2016, 09:01:18 AM
The rank and file staff got along ok with Buzz, but he was a weird dude. He and his wife were paranoid as hell. His wife would scour the Internet for anything written about Buzz. She wouldn't take to kindly to anything negative. This was well known. I wouldn't doubt she is reading this thread.
From the panic room, of course
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 04, 2016, 08:39:30 AM
Lenny, let me try to explain this in a way you'll understand then.
Today's post is brought to you by the Letters "G", "T" and "N".
"G" is for Gone, as in, "Buzz Williams has been gone for three years now."
"T" is for Train wreck, as in, "Buzz Williams' last season at Marquette was a train wreck."
"N" is for Not coming back," as in, "Buzz Williams is not coming back to Marquette."
The point of both my posts is that it is time to move on. I thought, as I noted, that Buzz showed an incredible lack of class when he left Marquette. That bothered me but not enough to dwell on it for three years.
It's amazing that we have six takes on Buzz comments. Let it go people! Let's argue about Luke's continuing foul trouble, whether we make the tournament or even what the university should do if we don't.
The noted philosopher/financier, Kevin O'Leary (aka Mr. Wonderful) repeatedly sums up my advice to all who dwell on Buzz Williams:
"He's dead to me!"
He should be to all of you too!
dg - let me give credit where credit is due. This post is far less venal, petty, mean spirited, etc. than the one I previously responded to - thank you for that. And it's ok (I guess) if Buzz is "dead to you". But then you tell everybody else how to feel. IMO that's not ok.
If Bumstead is dead, den Crean is a fookin', cremated fart in da wind, ai na?