MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on May 31, 2016, 10:43:34 AM
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Since everyone is healthy (ish).... Cavaliers in 6.
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Warriors in 6.
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If Curry is back to 100% (and he looks awfully close), Warriors in 5.
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I'll take Cleveland in 4.
Not because of the players on the floor but because the one GS/OKC game i watched (game 6) during a time out they had a shot of the GS huddle and all Kerr said was "we need to move! we need to move both our bodies and the ball!". Any coach that just shouts coaching platitudes at his players during aired huddles instead of drawing up plays is bound to cost his team every game - unbelievable he has this job.
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First time in cheering for LeBron in the finals.
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I'll take Cleveland in 4.
Not because of the players on the floor but because the one GS/OKC game i watched (game 6) during a time out they had a shot of the GS huddle and all Kerr said was "we need to move! we need to move both our bodies and the ball!". Any coach that just shouts coaching platitudes at his players during aired huddles instead of drawing up plays is bound to cost his team every game - unbelievable he has this job.
That's what every coach says when the camera is on him in timeouts. When the cameras are turned away, they work on game strategy.
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I'll take Cleveland in 4.
Not because of the players on the floor but because the one GS/OKC game i watched (game 6) during a time out they had a shot of the GS huddle and all Kerr said was "we need to move! we need to move both our bodies and the ball!". Any coach that just shouts coaching platitudes at his players during aired huddles instead of drawing up plays is bound to cost his team every game - unbelievable he has this job.
I laffed.
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Cavaliers, please. Please...please...please. Four, five, six or seven...makes no real difference to me. Did you notice I said please?
It's time for my adopted town (25 years now) to win a championship. Currently, the teams that I rooted for in my youth are the reigning World Series and Super Bowl champs. It would be really cool to have my "favorite"* teams as the champions in each of the three major sports.
*I count as my favorites the Broncos and Royals (two teams I rooted for and followed when I was a boy) and the Cavs, Indians and Browns. I know you're supposed to have just one "favorite," but after 25 years here I have developed affection for the local teams but still like the teams I grew up with. I still struggle with the Browns, though -- probably because they are such a dumpster fire.
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Cavaliers, please. Please...please...please. Four, five, six or seven...makes no real difference to me. Did you notice I said please?
It's time for my adopted town (25 years now) to win a championship. Currently, the teams that I rooted for in my youth are the reigning World Series and Super Bowl champs. It would be really cool to have my "favorite"* teams as the champions in each of the three major sports.
*I count as my favorites the Broncos and Royals (two teams I rooted for and followed when I was a boy) and the Cavs, Indians and Browns. I know you're supposed to have just one "favorite," but after 25 years here I have developed affection for the local teams but still like the teams I grew up with. I still struggle with the Browns, though -- probably because they are such a dumpster fire.
More than 30 for me but I still find it difficult to cheer for the Bears. All Pack, all the time. Love the Bulls (minus Rose), love the Hawks, kinda like the Sox and mostly dislike the Cubs fans.
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I'll take Cleveland in 4.
Not because of the players on the floor but because the one GS/OKC game i watched (game 6) during a time out they had a shot of the GS huddle and all Kerr said was "we need to move! we need to move both our bodies and the ball!". Any coach that just shouts coaching platitudes at his players during aired huddles instead of drawing up plays is bound to cost his team every game - unbelievable he has this job.
Your analysis is as lacking in depth as you claim Kerr's coaching is
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More than 30 for me but I still find it difficult to cheer for the Bears. All Pack, all the time. Love the Bulls (minus Rose), love the Hawks, kinda like the Sox and mostly dislike the Cubs fans.
I think I'd find it harder to root for the Cleveland teams if I'd grown up with a rivalry similar to the Packers/Bears experience. The Browns/Broncos rivalry is much more of a "thing" here in Cleveland than it is back home -- largely because of two or three games before I moved here. As it is, the Browns have been the hardest local team for me to adopt. I think that's due largely to the fact that they suck so bad. Ten or so years ago I surprised myself when, without thinking, I found myself rooting from the Browns in a game against the Broncos. But since that time they've become a very difficult team to root for because they are so horribly managed. I do root for them, but I'm definitely more of a fan of the Broncos.
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I think this is a good time for the Klay Thompson haters to reiterate that he's not all that good.
Oh, there's been him carrying the team in several playoff games -- most notably the Game 6 elimination game -- with Curry out or at less than full speed. And the fact that Thompson actually plays defense. And that he rebounds and passes well.
But I guess he's still not so hot.
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I think this is a good time for the Klay Thompson haters to reiterate that he's not all that good.
Oh, there's been him carrying the team in several playoff games -- most notably the Game 6 elimination game -- with Curry out or at less than full speed. And the fact that Thompson actually plays defense. And that he rebounds and passes well.
But I guess he's still not so hot.
I used to think Thompson was good but maybe not as good as his numbers suggest due to playing with Curry, etc. But the guy is as good as his numbers are. When you can shoot like he can, get his shot off in as small of windows as he can, get his shot off as quickly he can, and is as tall as he is, there is not much a defense can do to stop him.
The most impressive part of the past 2 games he has played to me is how clutch he has been. He hasn't just made a lot of shots, he has made a lot of very important shots. And when he hasn't hit the clutch shot, Curry has, even when Curry wasn't shooting well.
I think if this series started 2 weeks early or even a week earlier the Cavs would take it. But I think the Warriors are back.
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I think this is a good time for the Klay Thompson haters to reiterate that he's not all that good.
Oh, there's been him carrying the team in several playoff games -- most notably the Game 6 elimination game -- with Curry out or at less than full speed. And the fact that Thompson actually plays defense. And that he rebounds and passes well.
But I guess he's still not so hot.
Relax, he stared game 7 shooting 0-7 and only shot 7-19 in the game, which would be the stat line he would normally have is he played without Curry, game 7 was all Curry. Can he put up some gaudy numbers? Absolutely but if he was the star of the back court is efficiency would hit James Harden type numbers.
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Since I was one of the biggest boosters for Klay at the beginning of the year (and was called on it here, as he's only good cuz Steph is around), I will take GS in 6 games.
I say this because of another player that I was attacked about over my comments - Kevin Love. I said he was overrated when the cavs traded for him and I still feel the same. I have said that Green is a better player - which I still believe and I think that position may be the difference in the series. Maybe Love will prove me wrong, but I doubt it. My guess is that one of the main objectives of GS will be to expose Love's defense. It is not just bad - it is absolutely brutal. The Love/Irving duo is completely unable to defend the pick and roll. In fact they are the worst duo in the entire NBA and it is not even close.
If you think GS took advantage of Adams and Kanter on the switches, wait until it is Love in that position.
Has anyone also noticed the physical play so far? It's nice that the refs are letting them play?
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Since I was one of the biggest boosters for Klay at the beginning of the year (and was called on it here, as he's only good cuz Steph is around), I will take GS in 6 games.
I say this because of another player that I was attacked about over my comments - Kevin Love. I said he was overrated when the cavs traded for him and I still feel the same. I have said that Green is a better player - which I still believe and I think that position may be the difference in the series. Maybe Love will prove me wrong, but I doubt it. My guess is that one of the main objectives of GS will be to expose Love's defense. It is not just bad - it is absolutely brutal. The Love/Irving duo is completely unable to defend the pick and roll. In fact they are the worst duo in the entire NBA and it is not even close.
If you think GS took advantage of Adams and Kanter on the switches, wait until it is Love in that position.
Has anyone also noticed the physical play so far? It's nice that the refs are letting them play?
I still think GS wins but to reverse the scenario look what Adams and Kanter did to the Warriors interior defense. Love can have that same effect.
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I think if this series started 2 weeks early or even a week earlier the Cavs would take it. But I think the Warriors are back.
Agreed. The window of opportunity was open - and the Thunder did a great job of exploiting it - but the Warriors seem to be back. At this point, I think the return of Curry and the scare against the Thunder probably turned this from a 7-game series into a relatively quick 5-game series win for GS.
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I still think GS wins but to reverse the scenario look what Adams and Kanter did to the Warriors interior defense. Love can have that same effect.
Love floats around the perimeter so I think this matchup is even better for the Warriors.
Adams is going to be the best center in the NBA for a long time. Maybe not numbers wise, but the guy is a big time problem for opponents. And he's 22 years old. Scary.
A friend brought up a coworker posing the question of, "If you have to start a franchise (so not just 1 season) today with either James Harden or Steven Adams, who would you take?" Him and the other 2 friends I was with both laughed that the question was even brought up and said Harden without even thinking about it. I take Adams without even thinking about it. The biggest mistake Donovan did, and he coached a really good series except the end of game 6 and 2nd half of game 7, was completely limiting Adams's minutes in the 2nd half last night.
Tristian Thompson is a poor man's Adams, Love is better than Serge but not defensively, LeBron and KD are fairly comparable at this point, Irving is no Westbrook. Cavs need to continue to shoot about 90% from 3. I don't see it.
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It went 6 last year without a healthy Irving or Love and with Curry at 100%. Steph's injury along with the presence of Love and Irving swing the balance.
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I still think GS wins but to reverse the scenario look what Adams and Kanter did to the Warriors interior defense. Love can have that same effect.
I disagree.
Adams is 7' and Kanter is 6'10. Love is closer to 6'8". The damage he will do is shooting 3s.
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It went 6 last year without a healthy Irving or Love and with Curry at 100%. Steph's injury along with the presence of Love and Irving swing the balance.
Assuming I give a $hit Irving shows up for every game. Irving is the only one that can guard Steph, does Irving have it in him to play two way ball for the entire series(or stay healthy), especially if a game doesn't go their way and LBJ gets all starey.
I love Love, but his skill set plays into the warriors hands. I think he's a killer rebounder which is a weakness for GS, but he floats on the perimeter too much on offense which will help the interior defense a ton for GS.
The only way I see Cleveland winning is if they can get hot again from 3 and really spread the ball around which will open the driving lanes for LBJ and Irving.
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On a related note, I'd be interested in opinions here on whether the Warriors should try to sign Durant. There has been talk that KD would like to go to GS or SA when he would have a better chance to win a title.
My feeling is that he would not make GS a better team, but I would be interested in the opinions of others here.
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Relax, he stared game 7 shooting 0-7 and only shot 7-19 in the game, which would be the stat line he would normally have is he played without Curry, game 7 was all Curry. Can he put up some gaudy numbers? Absolutely but if he was the star of the back court is efficiency would hit James Harden type numbers.
I'm not even the hugest Thompson fan. I just think it's funny how easily some dismiss such a good player.
Are you one of those who doesn't think "clutch" matters? If so, I get your point. If not, Thompson came up huge these last two games. He started 0-for-7 ... which means he finished 7-for-12, fueling the comeback and delivering a few daggers once the Warriors were ahead.
I would take him over Harden -- who doesn't play a lick of defense and who dribbles until the clock says 2 and then fires -- ESPECIALLY if I had other good-to-great players on my team.
Can you imagine Curry getting "held" to 8-10 shots a game by being Harden's teammate? You'd have to, because I'm pretty sure Harden would be too selfish to change his game.
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It went 6 last year without a healthy Irving or Love and with Curry at 100%. Steph's injury along with the presence of Love and Irving swing the balance.
Last year Love being out was addition by subtraction.
Curry also improved his game by a lot more than anyone else in this entire series, and LeBron isn't as good as he was last year.
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On a related note, I'd be interested in opinions here on whether the Warriors should try to sign Durant. There has been talk that KD would like to go to GS or SA when he would have a better chance to win a title.
My feeling is that he would not make GS a better team, but I would be interested in the opinions of others here.
Durant would make any team in the history of the sport a much better team.
He will sign a 1 year contract with OKC, and then probably a long term contract with OKC after that. If not OKC, then LAL after next year. But I put that at about a 5% chance.
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On a related note, I'd be interested in opinions here on whether the Warriors should try to sign Durant. There has been talk that KD would like to go to GS or SA when he would have a better chance to win a title.
My feeling is that he would not make GS a better team, but I would be interested in the opinions of others here.
I think it would be hard to spread the ball around enough if KD joined the Warriors. But the thought of KD, Klay, and Curry, arguably the best 3 shooters in the league, on the floor at the same time is nightmare fuel for opponents.
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I always thought the talks were Durant to Washington.
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So, with full knowledge that I'm predicting with my heart, I'll say Cavs in six. Don't worry about me, I'm prepared to have my heart ripped out again.
I actually like GS, and have really been rooting for them all year. They're a great team. I think the Cavs are much better than they were this time last year. They do a lot of things better. They move the ball well and find better shots. I hope they play like they're capable of. Last year they were seriously depleted and made a run at it. While I fully recognize that GS is also improved, I think the Cavs will have a better showing than last year. They'll have to play really well, though.
You wouldn't find me betting much on them, though. I wouldn't bet much on either team in this series.
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I think it would be hard to spread the ball around enough if KD joined the Warriors. But the thought of KD, Klay, and Curry, arguably the best 3 shooters in the league, on the floor at the same time is nightmare fuel for opponents.
That was my thinking in my comment. GS had 73 wins as currently constructed. I don't know how they become "better" by taking the ball out of the hands of Curry and Klay.
Defensively, while Durant has length and gives a decent effort, he is nowhere near Green or Iguodala on that end of the floor.
I think Durant makes any other team in the NBA better - except for Golden State.
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It went 6 last year without a healthy Irving or Love and with Curry at 100%. Steph's injury along with the presence of Love and Irving swing the balance.
Steph didn't look injured last night.
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Your analysis is as lacking in depth as you claim Kerr's coaching is
Sarcasm, brandy.
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Sarcasm, brandy.
I'm a little slow mentally on Mondays - and apparently Tuesdays, as well.
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I would love to see GS in 4. I hate Lebron.
Its funny, Cleveland has probably some of the best talent in the NBA at 3 positions (Irving, Love, James), but drastically underperforms.
I hope they relapse (looked great lately) and get their asses handed to them.
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After reading some of the brainless NBA comments here, stick with college hoops. It's all you guys can handle.
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I'll take Cleveland in 4.
Not because of the players on the floor but because the one GS/OKC game i watched (game 6) during a time out they had a shot of the GS huddle and all Kerr said was "we need to move! we need to move both our bodies and the ball!". Any coach that just shouts coaching platitudes at his players during aired huddles instead of drawing up plays is bound to cost his team every game - unbelievable he has this job.
Gets record for most wins in a season. Should not have job. Logic.
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Gets record for most wins in a season. Should not have job. Logic.
Wow. Two birds with one stone. Apparently naginiF is on his game.
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nagin is killing it. BennyB is going to get jealous, look out.
I understand that regular season games mean nothing when it comes to the future of a Playoff series, but last years' Finals results mean even less. Mosgov was incredible for the Cavs in the Finals last year...and now never plays. If the Cavs are going to try to play small ball with the Warriors and put 4 shooters around LBJ like they have ben in the Playoffs, they're going to get blown out. You can't outshoot the Warriors, you can't out-small-ball the Warriors. The Warriors embarrassed the Cavs both times they played this year. I think the Warriors are just a bad matchup for the Cavs. Sure the Cavs have played great...against the Detroit Pistons, Atlanta Hawks, and Toronto Raptors. Do any of those teams even make the Playoffs if they play a full season in the West?
BPI has their chances up. They have a Warriors sweep (12%) as a higher percentage than a Cavs win in any individual number of games (6 games - 11%). Overall they give the Warriors a 75% chance to win the title.
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PG: Steph > Kyrie, advantage GS
SG: Klay > JR, advantage GS
SF: LeBron > anyone, but Iguodola knows how to defend him. Still Advantage Cavs
PF: Green > Love, advantage GS
C: Bogut/Ezeli/Mo/AV > anyone the Cavs can come up with, advantage GS
Bench: Livingston/Barnes/Ezeli/Speights > Shump/Delly/Frye by a huge margin. Advantage GS.
Coaching: not even close, advantage GS
Still, Cleveland will steal one or two when JR gets hot or LeBron takes over, but it's GS in 6 or less.
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By the way, am I the only one who thoroughly enjoys seeing the Warriors "stall" for a minute, bring in "Mo Buckets," watch him hit 3 of 4 perimeter jumpers in 5 possessions, and then go back to the bench? The guy is 6'10", 255 (I think it's closer to 275 but what do I know?) and he can shoot the rock better than anybody on the Bucks roster. It's awesome.
I'm also a huge fan of Livingston and don't understand why he bounced around so much, even after his horrific injury. It's hard to imagine how good he could've been without that.
I have a hard time remembering a former superstar like Iggy accepting that he's no longer that guy and completely redefining his game and accepting the fact that he's now a defensive stopper who will make the most of open driving lanes created by the great shooters around him.
And last but not least I would really love for the Bucks to make a push for Harrison Barnes, as I think he is really underrated. But they won't.
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By the way, am I the only one who thoroughly enjoys seeing the Warriors "stall" for a minute, bring in "Mo Buckets," watch him hit 3 of 4 perimeter jumpers in 5 possessions, and then go back to the bench? The guy is 6'10", 255 (I think it's closer to 275 but what do I know?) and he can shoot the rock better than anybody on the Bucks roster. It's awesome.
I'm also a huge fan of Livingston and don't understand why he bounced around so much, even after his horrific injury. It's hard to imagine how good he could've been without that.
I have a hard time remembering a former superstar like Iggy accepting that he's no longer that guy and completely redefining his game and accepting the fact that he's now a defensive stopper who will make the most of open driving lanes created by the great shooters around him.
And last but not least I would really love for the Bucks to make a push for Harrison Barnes, as I think he is really underrated. But they won't.
No, you are not alone with this. In fact, I think Mo/Iggy/Livingston/Ezeli/Barbosa are better as a unit than about 10 of the starting 5's in the NBA. Then you add Rush, Clark & Varajeo and it's not a bad roster!
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Hoping for the city of Cleveland. Going to be tough
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After reading some of the brainless NBA comments here, stick with college hoops. It's all you guys can handle.
Very astute!!
You're afraid to give an analysis - yet make fun of others.
All while inferring that you are the real expert. Hilarious, but sadly, very typical for you.
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PG: Steph > Kyrie, advantage GS
SG: Klay > JR, advantage GS
SF: LeBron > anyone, but Iguodola knows how to defend him. Still Advantage Cavs
PF: Green > Love, advantage GS
C: Bogut/Ezeli/Mo/AV > anyone the Cavs can come up with, advantage GS
Bench: Livingston/Barnes/Ezeli/Speights > Shump/Delly/Frye by a huge margin. Advantage GS.
Coaching: not even close, advantage GS
Still, Cleveland will steal one or two when JR gets hot or LeBron takes over, but it's GS in 6 or less.
You greatly over value Draymond
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You greatly over value Draymond
He's a better 3rd piece than Love is a 3rd piece. But Love would be the better #1 player on a team than Draymond is.
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He's a better 3rd piece than Love is a 3rd piece. But Love would be the better #1 player on a team than Draymond is.
I'll grant you that Draymond is a "system" player who thrives under the GSW coaching and system, but he also guards better than Love, passes better than Love, and rebounds better than Love. Put him on another team and maybe not, but right now he plays for the warriors, and his value in their system is greater than Love's value in Cleveland's system.
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I'll grant you that Draymond is a "system" player who thrives under the GSW coaching and system, but he also guards better than Love, passes better than Love, and rebounds better than Love. Put him on another team and maybe not, but right now he plays for the warriors, and his value in their system is greater than Love's value in Cleveland's system.
I say that Green would be better on any team. He plays harder than Love at all times, is a better shooter, and can do so much more.
As far as being a better #1 player on a team, well, Love would be the better #1 on a bad team. Neither would be the #1 player on a good team.
The biggest difference is defense. Green is a great defender; Love is one of the NBA's worst.
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I'm also a huge fan of Livingston and don't understand why he bounced around so much, even after his horrific injury. It's hard to imagine how good he could've been without that.
I have a hard time remembering a former superstar like Iggy accepting that he's no longer that guy and completely redefining his game and accepting the fact that he's now a defensive stopper who will make the most of open driving lanes created by the great shooters around him.
I think Livingston just got onto bad teams. Wizards, Bobcats, when the Bucks were a mess. So you have someone who had a horrific injury, playing backup minutes on bad teams, I can see why people might not have given him a full chance. Once he got to Brooklyn, was the every day backup for Deron Williams, people were like "whoa, he's actually a solid role player" and he fits that spot PERFECTLY in GS. Him throwing down the other day was awesome.
As for Iggy, he was the star that was never a true star. Only has made 1 all star team. Made the Olympic team as role player and defensive ace and was also on mediocre to bad teams most of his prime. And he has never been a volume scorer, so its hard to stand out on bad teams when you're a defensive ace and decent scorer. After winning a gold medal, I think he was ready to contribute on a good team in any way possible, and he's been HUGE for Golden State. He's by all accounts a really good dude too, so I think hes a great locker room guy for them.
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I loved Iggy when he was on Denver. That was a fun team before they all got injured or fell off the face of the planet. Lawson, Galinari, Iggy, Faried and Mozgov.
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6 straight NBA finals appearances for Lebron...that hasn't happened in like 50 years to a NBA players.
Most of my family is from Cleveland, spent some time there last week as I have many times over the years....those people are so hungry for a title. Would love to see them get it.
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I'll grant you that Draymond is a "system" player who thrives under the GSW coaching and system, but he also guards better than Love, passes better than Love, and rebounds better than Love. Put him on another team and maybe not, but right now he plays for the warriors, and his value in their system is greater than Love's value in Cleveland's system.
love seemed or was a better player on a bad team(minnesota). coming to cleveland, you would think he would have gotten even better as other teams can't focus on him as you have a few others(lebron, kyrie) that take the defensive pressure off him. i don't know if he got complacent or what, but he just seemed to drop a notch. hell, with his defense, or lack there of, stevo(healthy) could fill his role and for much $$$ less. don't get me wrong, i like love, but i thought he would be more of a threat.
draymond, as obnoxious as he can be, ya gotta love his energy. inside/out-a round mound of rebound with a much better outside shot. the splash brothers plus gs's bench and explosiveness...they take it in 5.
as for the commercial huddles-what do ya expect the coaches to be saying or drawing up? the next play(s) they want to run? might as well put the camera in the football huddle too and then belichick wouldn't have to use his secret drones anymore-ennn'a? ya know what would be funny is if when the camera's on the b-ball huddle, the coach just automatically starts going-hey guys, what are ya'll up for after we close this bad boy down? i'm up for a good craft beer and a double vegan burger or have him partner with some restaurant and draw up their name in big bold letters on his whiteboard-EAT AT JOE'S or something...that would be a hoot ;D ::) ;D
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Nagin, when are you going to break the news to these guys?
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It's an old article but none the less it applies today and transcends from college to the NBA, from the New York Times........
Timeout Tactics Include Seating and Setting
By JOHN BRANCHMARCH 23, 2009
Basketball coaches diagram plays and demand that they be run with precision. More than ever, that includes the action when the game stops.
The timeout may be the most orchestrated part of a college basketball game....................
...........The only consistency is that everyone knows what the coach wants. It has been rehearsed, like a pick-and-roll or a zone trap.
“Before the first game, I remember vividly in practice, he said, ‘This is what we’re going to do during timeouts, I don't care if there are TV cameras around or not...we are going to draw up the play that we are executing. Show it on the jumbotron for all I care. Hell, invite the other team over to see it - It's called coaching!!! Anyone afraid to show their hand shouldn't be coaching at the local Y’ ” the Texas A&M athletic assistant Dustin Clark said of Coach Mark Turgeon.
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I'm torn about Cleveland.
On the one hand, I'd like to see great, loyal fans finally be rewarded.
On the other, there's something "romantic" about the kind of "forever angst" being felt by Cleveland fans -- and Cubbie fans, and formerly Red Sox fans, etc.
I know it's not a "romantic" notion to Clevelanders, but to outsiders it is.
Having said all that, I think I'd like to see the Cavs do it. I absolutely do not hate LeBron -- I really enjoy watching him play and think that, in a weird way, he's almost been underrated. I love watching Curry, too, but I find myself getting a little tired of the Golden State bandwagon jumpers.
I'm hoping for a great series, with 7 dramatic games -- kind of an NBA version of the 1991 World Series would be nice.
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I'm torn about Cleveland.
On the one hand, I'd like to see great, loyal fans finally be rewarded.
On the other, there's something "romantic" about the kind of "forever angst" being felt by Cleveland fans -- and Cubbie fans, and formerly Red Sox fans, etc.
I know it's not a "romantic" notion to Clevelanders, but to outsiders it is.
Having said all that, I think I'd like to see the Cavs do it. I absolutely do not hate LeBron -- I really enjoy watching him play and think that, in a weird way, he's almost been underrated. I love watching Curry, too, but I find myself getting a little tired of the Golden State bandwagon jumpers.
I'm hoping for a great series, with 7 dramatic games -- kind of an NBA version of the 1991 World Series would be nice.
I went to college in Ohio, I have a LOT of good friends from Cleveland, and others that are from Cbus or other parts of Ohio that are Cavs fans. Ive never liked Lebron, but I had sympathy for them and even pulled for them the first trip to the finals when they got swept by the Spurs. But after the "Decision" and the reaction to Lebron, the spite for him in Miami, and then the way they gloriously welcomed him back. Naw, the desperation was too much. Especially when it wasn't as altruistic as everyone made it to be.
And my friends weren't the idiots burning jerseys or that. They were justifiably annoyed and displeased. When they got Kyrie in the draft and a couple other picks, they were ready to do it without Lebron, and that was cool. Then he came back, forced the Love trade, and took over GM duties. Screw it.
Id be rooting for the Thunder or the Spurs if either had taken down the Warriors. Loving them as I have since Curry and Klay showed up 5-6 years ago just makes it more fun. I remember watching them as the 6 seed against the Nuggest in 2012-2013 and going "wow, they are fun to watch. Not great yet, but DANG." Id like to see the Cavs win a championship someday, but knowing that Lebron and his weird insecurity wouldn't have one as the hometown savior? I'm cool with that.
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More than 30 for me but I still find it difficult to cheer for the Bears. All Pack, all the time. Love the Bulls (minus Rose), love the Hawks, kinda like the Sox and mostly dislike the Cubs fans.
As a white sox fan thank you. It's frustrating to have every one who moves here from out of state to immediately adopt the cubs as their baseball team. I have a co-worker who is a badger fan (not a graduate just lived in madison for a while) who was a cleveland indians fan (hes originally from ohio) who is suddenly now the biggest cub fan. Hes the worst.
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Should be easy to root for the Cavs:
Jim Boylan is a Cavs Asst.
Cavs in 6.
#GoCavs
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The "experts" overwhelmingly picking the Warriors. The list I saw had something like 5 for the Cavs and 40+ for the Warriors.
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The "experts" overwhelmingly picking the Warriors. The list I saw had something like 5 for the Cavs and 40+ for the Warriors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GqIci7JA8c
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GqIci7JA8c
Nope, definitely not on the NBA.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2016-nba-playoffs-experts-unanimously-pick-warriors-over-cavs-in-finals-rematch/
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/GSWCLE-15859161/nba-playoffs-2016-experts-predictions-golden-state-warriors-cleveland-cavaliers-nba-finals
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-mavericks/mavericks/2016/06/01/sportsdays-experts-pick-warriors-cavaliers-edge-nba-finals
http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/cbs-local-picks/2016-nba-finals-expert-picks/
http://www.ibtimes.com/cavs-vs-warriors-2016-expert-predictions-2016-nba-finals-2376703
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I would love to see GS in 4. I hate Lebron.
This is what I'm hoping for. I don't like Lebron, and I don't feel guilty about it. I get kind of sick of the media convincing me why I need to root for him. I don't wish ill upon the guy, I just want to see him lose basketball games. Every time I start to forget how annoying he is, he does something else, most recently of which was him talking about the meaning of the word valuable. Just congratulate Steph. They won 73 games and he was amazing.
Go Warriors.
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This is what I'm hoping for. I don't like Lebron, and I don't feel guilty about it. I get kind of sick of the media convincing me why I need to root for him. I don't wish ill upon the guy, I just want to see him lose basketball games. Every time I start to forget how annoying he is, he does something else, most recently of which was him talking about the meaning of the word valuable. Just congratulate Steph. They won 73 games and he was amazing.
Go Warriors.
This is exactly what I mean about the illogical dislike of Lebron. He is one of the best basketball players ever and people get hung up on how he defines "valuable." I mean c'mon...
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This is exactly what I mean about the illogical dislike of Lebron. He is one of the best basketball players ever and people get hung up on how he defines "valuable." I mean c'mon...
Why do I have to like him? There are number of players I dislike for arbitrary reasons. Has The Decision, gets his coach fired, puts together super teams to try to win... any of these are generic reasons for me to root against somebody while watching sports. He's not the only guy in the league I'd root against. I don't hope he gets injured. I just want him to lose the game.
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You don't have to like him. I just find yours (and others) reasons for disliking him completely illogical.
The Decision - a mistake that he apologized for. Not to mention it is something that many celebrate high school kids doing. Scoopers thought Markus Howard's little movie announcing he was coming to Marquette was cool, but it was essentially the same thing.
Gets his coach fired - because he was over his head and generally bad. He just accepted a head coaching position in Turkey.
Puts together super teams to try to win - THE HORROR!!!!
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You don't have to like him. I just find yours (and others) reasons for disliking him completely illogical.
The Decision - a mistake that he apologized for. Not to mention it is something that many celebrate high school kids doing. Scoopers thought Markus Howard's little movie announcing he was coming to Marquette was cool, but it was essentially the same thing.
Gets his coach fired - because he was over his head and generally bad. He just accepted a head coaching position in Turkey.
Puts together super teams to try to win - THE HORROR!!!!
He was? The guy got to the Finals in his first season, went up 2-1 without 2 of his 3 best players in the series, and was off to a 30-11 start in season 2. That's in over your head?
If so, what is Tyronn Lue when he has Love and Irving back and (should, but the NBA will find a way to make it a 6 game series) get swept in the Finals with those 2?
Mike Brown must've been in over his head as well, yet the coaches that have replaced the guys that LeBron has had fired are producing the same results that those guys produced.
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He was? The guy got to the Finals in his first season, went up 2-1 without 2 of his 3 best players in the series, and was off to a 30-11 start in season 2. That's in over your head?
If so, what is Tyronn Lue when he has Love and Irving back and (should, but the NBA will find a way to make it a 6 game series) get swept in the Finals with those 2?
Mike Brown must've been in over his head as well, yet the coaches that have replaced the guys that LeBron has had fired are producing the same results that those guys produced.
Yep. Blatt and Brown undoubtedly benefited more from having Lebron on their teams. But since both are now out of the NBA, Brown failing at the Lakers and in his second go around with the Cavs, and Blatt heading back to Europe, it is safe to say that neither were very good coaches. Is Lue in that same category? Time will tell.
Now Erik Spoelstra is a good coach. He won before Lebron got there and after he left. If he would be fired tomorrow, he'll land another gig no doubt. I think it will be a long time before Brown or Blatt coach in the NBA again.
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Gets his coach fired - because he was over his head and generally bad. He just accepted a head coaching position in Turkey.
Blatt was 30-11 (.732) this season - mostly without Irving - when he got fired.
Lue went 27-14 (.659) the rest of the way - mostly with Irving.
The coach wasn't holding them back....
And Blatt went to Turkey because he has played/coached most of his career in Europe...then has a very successful 2 years in the NBA and gets fired. He just wanted to go where he'd be appreciated.
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Blatt was 30-11 (.732) this season - mostly without Irving - when he got fired.
Lue went 27-14 (.659) the rest of the way - mostly with Irving.
The coach wasn't holding them back....
And Blatt went to Turkey because he has played/coached most of his career in Europe...then has a very successful 2 years in the NBA and gets fired. He just wanted to go where he'd be appreciated.
Sure. I'm sure that's it.
(And I'm not making any claims that Lue is a good coach.)
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You don't have to like him. I just find yours (and others) reasons for disliking him completely illogical.
The Decision - a mistake that he apologized for. Not to mention it is something that many celebrate high school kids doing. Scoopers thought Markus Howard's little movie announcing he was coming to Marquette was cool, but it was essentially the same thing.
Gets his coach fired - because he was over his head and generally bad. He just accepted a head coaching position in Turkey.
Puts together super teams to try to win - THE HORROR!!!!
I agree with this except the H.S. videos being "essentially the same thing" as The Decision.
LeBron spent 7 years with the Cavs. He became part of the fabric of the community. He gave a championship-starved community hope. He was "one of their own," a native son, who relished being there. In the end, he toyed with them. He teased them. He made many believe he was an Ohioan for life. And then he not only left, but he ripped their hearts out in a pathetic, narcissistic TV event.
Whose heart did Markus Howard rip out with his announcement?
Even big-time guys who chose Duke over Kentucky, and therefore disappoint Ky fans ... that player didn't "belong" to Kentucky. He didn't spend 7 years talking about how "Lexington" he was.
So I don't think it's even in the same universe ... except for the look-at-me part of it.
And remember, I say all these things as a guy who really likes watching LeBron, who was glad he apologized for The Decision, who thought Gilbert acted like a total douche after The Decision, who had absolutely no problem with LeBron building a "superteam" in Miami, who is glad LeBron went back to Cleveland and who now kinda hopes the Cavs win.
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I agree with this except the H.S. videos being "essentially the same thing" as The Decision.
LeBron spent 7 years with the Cavs. He became part of the fabric of the community. He gave a championship-starved community hope. He was "one of their own," a native son, who relished being there. In the end, he toyed with them. He teased them. He made many believe he was an Ohioan for life. And then he not only left, but he ripped their hearts out in a pathetic, narcissistic TV event.
Whose heart did Markus Howard rip out with his announcement?
Even big-time guys who chose Duke over Kentucky, and therefore disappoint Ky fans ... that player didn't "belong" to Kentucky. He didn't spend 7 years talking about how "Lexington" he was.
So I don't think it's even in the same universe ... except for the look-at-me part of it.
And remember, I say all these things as a guy who really likes watching LeBron, who was glad he apologized for The Decision, who thought Gilbert acted like a total douche after The Decision, who had absolutely no problem with LeBron building a "superteam" in Miami, who is glad LeBron went back to Cleveland and who now kinda hopes the Cavs win.
As someone who was living in Cleveland at the time (although admittedly not a lifelong Clevelander), I honestly don't understand some of the fuss over LeBron leaving. Of course, I was disappointed. And I thought "the Decision" was a rare ill-advised -- albeit well-intentioned -- PR misstep for LeBron. But I liked and rooted for him while he was in Miami (maybe because of DWade, not sure), and I like and root for him now. He's an extremely rare talent who should certainly be remembered as one of the greatest ever.
But, as someone who has lived in Cleveland throughout the entire LeBron years, please try to remember when ESPN, Sports Illustrated, etc. are looking for Clevelanders to interview about LeBron leaving, they aren't particularly attracted to the people who shrug their shoulders and say, "Meh." They're looking for the people sobbing and burning jerseys. That doesn't mean that those people are necessarily representative. I know a lot of people here -- including a lot of Cavs fans -- and while many were bummed, they understood why he did what he did.
And while I don't have proof that some here seem to require, I can't imagine that LeBron regretted his decision for a second. He shouldn't. It was a good decision. The "Decision" on the other hand...
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You don't have to like him. I just find yours (and others) reasons for disliking him completely illogical.
The Decision - a mistake that he apologized for. Not to mention it is something that many celebrate high school kids doing. Scoopers thought Markus Howard's little movie announcing he was coming to Marquette was cool, but it was essentially the same thing.
Gets his coach fired - because he was over his head and generally bad. He just accepted a head coaching position in Turkey.
Puts together super teams to try to win - THE HORROR!!!!
Even if all of this is true, why can't I want him to lose? Okay, then I want him to lose because I'm a Bulls fan and he kept beating the Bulls? What answer will suffice? It's entertainment.
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Even if all of this is true, why can't I want him to lose? Okay, then I want him to lose because I'm a Bulls fan and he kept beating the Bulls? What answer will suffice? It's entertainment.
Great point.
It's sports - our preferences for who we want to win or lose don't have to be right or logical or fair. They are what they are. Heck - it shouldn't even matter that you're a fan of a competing team.
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Even if all of this is true, why can't I want him to lose? Okay, then I want him to lose because I'm a Bulls fan and he kept beating the Bulls? What answer will suffice? It's entertainment.
That would be more logical.
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Even if all of this is true, why can't I want him to lose? Okay, then I want him to lose because I'm a Bulls fan and he kept beating the Bulls? What answer will suffice? It's entertainment.
Right. I don't get it. I can like and dislike whoever I want for whatever reasons I want.
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This is exactly what I mean about the illogical dislike of Lebron. He is one of the best basketball players ever and people get hung up on how he defines "valuable." I mean c'mon...
Personally, (and we've debated this before), I think Lebron is an over-rated player. He benefits greatly from a change in rules emphasis.
They ignore blatant offensive fouls on him every possession when he drives into a defender in place and pushes off or runs him over. Any other player and they call them all fouls and Lebron doesn't make it to the first media time out.
He lacks lateral quickness and instead powers through players. They ignore and changed how those fouls are called to benefit him.
He also dominates the ball too much. Everyone who has played with him has statistically declined significantly. He is the rare player that makes players worse and is absurdly uncoachable...coaches have to agree to do what Lebron does.
His absurd athletic ability and the way games are officiated have made him a dominant player; but his attitude has led to him having far less success than he is capable of.
I want to emphasize that when I say over-rated, I'm saying that in comparison to people saying he is an all-time top 5 player. He is nowhere near the league of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar Robinson, Wilt the stilt, Kareem etc.
Those types of players had rules changed to make them less effective, so they didn't dominate the game as much. Lebron had rule changes to make him more effective.
I compare Lebron more to Shaquille. Another player that was able to dominate based on power only, and the ignoring of rules in the NBA.
Yes, I'm aware this is a fringe belief.
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Right. I don't get it. I can like and dislike whoever I want for whatever reasons I want.
I never said you couldn't. I can just claim that your reasons are illogical. If you don't care about my opinion on your reasons, don't post them...or don't respond to me...or put me on ignore. Whatever.
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He also dominates the ball too much. Everyone who has played with him has statistically declined significantly. He is the rare player that makes players worse and is absurdly uncoachable...coaches have to agree to do what Lebron does.
This sounds almost exactly like the criticism Jordan got from his detractors. And he did have detractors, although those folks mostly had to shut up once Jordan got to 4, 5, 6 titles.
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This sounds almost exactly like the criticism Jordan got from his detractors. And he did have detractors, although those folks mostly had to shut up once Jordan got to 4, 5, 6 titles.
I agree, to a point. Jordan's first 6 seasons, he did dominate the ball too much and his team suffered as a result. He learned to adapt to the team and involve them much much more.
That is why he went on to win 3-straight titles and if he didn't go play baseball, would probably have won 4 or 6 straight.
Lebron, never learned.
Also, when Jordan was dominating the ball, he was putting up crazy numbers like 37 pts (or 35 points per game).
I think an interesting stat would be time of possession per player. Lebron would be up there. He also spends most of it standing still and dribbling instead of going somewhere with it.
Yes, I know...I hate Lebron and it is clouding my judgement...
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I never said you couldn't. I can just claim that your reasons are illogical. If you don't care about my opinion on your reasons, don't post them...or don't respond to me...or put me on ignore. Whatever.
They are illogical to who?
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Personally, (and we've debated this before), I think Lebron is an over-rated player. He benefits greatly from a change in rules emphasis.
They ignore blatant offensive fouls on him every possession when he drives into a defender in place and pushes off or runs him over. Any other player and they call them all fouls and Lebron doesn't make it to the first media time out.
He lacks lateral quickness and instead powers through players. They ignore and changed how those fouls are called to benefit him.
He also dominates the ball too much. Everyone who has played with him has statistically declined significantly. He is the rare player that makes players worse and is absurdly uncoachable...coaches have to agree to do what Lebron does.
His absurd athletic ability and the way games are officiated have made him a dominant player; but his attitude has led to him having far less success than he is capable of.
I want to emphasize that when I say over-rated, I'm saying that in comparison to people saying he is an all-time top 5 player. He is nowhere near the league of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar Robinson, Wilt the stilt, Kareem etc.
Those types of players had rules changed to make them less effective, so they didn't dominate the game as much. Lebron had rule changes to make him more effective.
I compare Lebron more to Shaquille. Another player that was able to dominate based on power only, and the ignoring of rules in the NBA.
Yes, I'm aware this is a fringe belief.
I actually don't disagree with a lot of this. But my response is, just because Shaq and Lebron are athletic and physical freaks, that shouldn't really count against them. Whether or not someone has lateral quickness, and has to power through defenders and the refs don't call a foul, isn't really his fault. And this gets too many people to downgrade his impact.
For instance, "he is nowhere in the league of Larry Bird?" Lebron is a much superior basketball player to Bird.
He's a better shooter based on career eFG% (.532 v. .514) shooting roughly the same amount per game (19.7 v. 19.3). He's a better passer, in terms of assist percentage (34.6% v. 24.7%). He's more efficient based on PER....slightly better offensive and defensive ratings...almost 50 more win shares after the same number of seasons...turns the ball over less based on turnover percentage...etc. etc. etc.
Bird was a better rebounder based on total rebounding percentage. He was also a better three point shooter - you would think "of course" right? Only 37.6% 34%. Or three additional makes over 100 shots.
Bird has one more championship (3 v. 2) in one less appearance (5 v. 6)
Larry Bird played with three additional members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (DJ, Parish, McHale). Lebron didn't play with any his first go around in Cleveland...likely two in Miami...and a couple of "we'll see" type players now.
So did Larry make his teammates better? Or did he fortuitously simply have better teammates?
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They are illogical to who?
Me.
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I actually don't disagree with a lot of this. But my response is, just because Shaq and Lebron are athletic and physical freaks, that shouldn't really count against them. Whether or not someone has lateral quickness, and has to power through defenders and the refs don't call a foul, isn't really his fault. And this gets too many people to downgrade his impact.
For instance, "he is nowhere in the league of Larry Bird?" Lebron is a much superior basketball player to Bird.
He's a better shooter based on career eFG% (.532 v. .514) shooting roughly the same amount per game (19.7 v. 19.3). He's a better passer, in terms of assist percentage (34.6% v. 24.7%). He's more efficient based on PER....slightly better offensive and defensive ratings...almost 50 more win shares after the same number of seasons...turns the ball over less based on turnover percentage...etc. etc. etc.
Bird was a better rebounder based on total rebounding percentage. He was also a better three point shooter - you would think "of course" right? Only 37.6% 34%. Or three additional makes over 100 shots.
Bird has one more championship (3 v. 2) in one less appearance (5 v. 6)
Larry Bird played with three additional members of the Basketball Hall of Fame (DJ, Parish, McHale). Lebron didn't play with any his first go around in Cleveland...likely two in Miami...and a couple of "we'll see" type players now.
So did Larry make his teammates better? Or did he fortuitously simply have better teammates?
I have no problem with people who don't like LeBron. I feel differently, but to each his own. But I don't understand people who think he's overrated or not one of the very best ever. At that point, I simply conclude -- as forgetful admits -- they are just clouded by LeBron hate.
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I have no problem with people who don't like LeBron. I feel differently, but to each his own. But I don't understand people who think he's overrated or not one of the very best ever. At that point, I simply conclude -- as forgetful admits -- they are just clouded by LeBron hate.
Agreed. The guy is the best of the generation.
But I hate him.
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I agree, to a point. Jordan's first 6 seasons, he did dominate the ball too much and his team suffered as a result. He learned to adapt to the team and involve them much much more.
That is why he went on to win 3-straight titles and if he didn't go play baseball, would probably have won 4 or 6 straight.
Lebron, never learned.
Also, when Jordan was dominating the ball, he was putting up crazy numbers like 37 pts (or 35 points per game).
I think an interesting stat would be time of possession per player. Lebron would be up there. He also spends most of it standing still and dribbling instead of going somewhere with it.
Yes, I know...I hate Lebron and it is clouding my judgement...
I disagree that LeBron does not make those around him better. I disagree that he is overrated.
And unlike you, I am unbiased. I am neither a "hater" nor an apologist. I just appreciate greatness.
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The criticism that annoys me most is the "he's only 2-4 in the Finals." Well, you've got to get there six times to be 2-4. I'll happily concede that 2-4 is not as good as MJ's 6-0. But 2-4 is a greater accomplishment that 2-0. This has bothered me for a while (also with Elway), and there was a good column (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/15882307/what-lebron-james-losing-nba-finals-record-really-means-nba?ex_cid=espnapi_public) addressing this issue on ESPN yesterday.
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This is a bit of a mismatch.
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This is why you don't let a player run your entire organization. Blatt was a hundred times the coach Tyronn Lue is. Whether that makes Blatt a great or a horrible coach I don't know, but I'm leaning more towards good. He comes in and gets his team to mesh immediately in their first year (even with the Super Team of Wade/Bosh/LeBron all in their prime they had a worse first season than last year's Cavs team did), got them to the Finals and had a 2-1 series lead with Tristian Thompson and Timofy Mosgov as his 2nd and 3rd best players available, and were off to a 30-11 start this season. Lue is completely lost.
Also, you trade a potential long term superstar (Wiggins) for a guy who just isn't very good (Love) 100% because it's what your hometown hero wants.
And when this "homecoming" fails, and LeBron orchestrates every move made, and he leaves again, he'll leave because he "didn't get enough help around him" like the first time he was in Cleveland.
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The mistake on the lake.
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This is why you don't let a player run your entire organization. Blatt was a hundred times the coach Tyronn Lue is. Whether that makes Blatt a great or a horrible coach I don't know, but I'm leaning more towards good. He comes in and gets his team to mesh immediately in their first year (even with the Super Team of Wade/Bosh/LeBron all in their prime they had a worse first season than last year's Cavs team did), got them to the Finals and had a 2-1 series lead with Tristian Thompson and Timofy Mosgov as his 2nd and 3rd best players available, and were off to a 30-11 start this season. Lue is completely lost.
Also, you trade a potential long term superstar (Wiggins) for a guy who just isn't very good (Love) 100% because it's what your hometown hero wants.
And when this "homecoming" fails, and LeBron orchestrates every move made, and he leaves again, he'll leave because he "didn't get enough help around him" like the first time he was in Cleveland.
Sorry, Wades. Lebron isn't the problem
Irving is a worse version of Stephon Marbury or Baron Davis. Kevin Love can only dream about being as good as Draymond Green. I said last yearthat Love was an overrated stiff whose numbers in Minny were due to playing on a crap team.
You cannot win when your 3rd and 4th best players (Irving, Love) don't play a lick of defense.
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This is a bit of a mismatch.
Yeah. After picking Warriors in 5, I'm thinking I may have given too much credit to the Cavs.
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This is why you don't let a player run your entire organization.
Because he got them to back to back Finals? And in this one they are losing to what is arguably the best team ever?
Yeah f*ck that guy.
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Because he got them to back to back Finals? And in this one they are losing to what is arguably the best team ever?
Yeah f*ck that guy.
The guy LeBron got fired got them to the Finals too...and had them playing much better...without Love and Irving.
LeBron is a great player, but he shouldn't be picking the coach.
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Because he got them to back to back Finals? And in this one they are losing to what is arguably the best team ever?
Yeah f*ck that guy.
I think if you traded the Suns and Cavs in East/West the Suns might make back to back Finals.
I'll repeat myself. This is exactly why you don't let a player run your organization. The Cavs have a worse player (Love/Wiggins) and worse coach (Lue/Blatt) 100% because they let a player pick the guys he wants.
If you're cool getting worse because you made it to the Finals so be it. I'm guessing Cleveland fans aren't just happy to be back getting swept in the Finals again. I'd be hungry to actually win one. But hey I'm not one of them so I could be wrong! You're probably right, they're probably sitting there thinking, "It's okay we got rid of Wiggins and Blatt to get worse! We're getting embarrassed in the Finals! Let's celebrate!"
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I think if you traded the Suns and Cavs in East/West the Suns might make back to back Finals.
I'll repeat myself. This is exactly why you don't let a player run your organization. The Cavs have a worse player (Love/Wiggins) and worse coach (Lue/Blatt) 100% because they let a player pick the guys he wants.
If you're cool getting worse because you made it to the Finals so be it. I'm guessing Cleveland fans aren't just happy to be back getting swept in the Finals again. I'd be hungry to actually win one. But hey I'm not one of them so I could be wrong! You're probably right, they're probably sitting there thinking, "It's okay we got rid of Wiggins and Blatt to get worse! We're getting embarrassed in the Finals! Let's celebrate!"
So you think they'd win with Wiggins and Blatt?
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So you think they'd win with Wiggins and Blatt?
Better chance short and long term than with what they have now, absolutely.
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Sorry, Wades. Lebron isn't the problem
Irving is a worse version of Stephon Marbury or Baron Davis. Kevin Love can only dream about being as good as Draymond Green. I said last yearthat Love was an overrated stiff whose numbers in Minny were due to playing on a crap team.
You cannot win when your 3rd and 4th best players (Irving, Love) don't play a lick of defense.
Or James makes them around him worse. James needs to dominate the ball. Irving is a pg, who is supposed to have the ball in his hands to make things happen. With James, he is miscast.
Love is a guy that needs a good pg around him. James is not a pg and dominates the ball.
This is an example of the team being a very poor fit. James should not be paired with players like Irving/Love (incidentally, Irving/Love would work well together if the ball was in Irving's hands).
For Cleveland, you have a player (James) that dribble and hold the ball too much. Ball doesn't move. Defense becomes absurdly easy.
In GSW, you have players that work well together. No one dominates the ball. The ball is constantly moving. Everyone knows and is ok with their role. Ball flies, defense is very hard.
The problem is not the players' abilities. It is the coaching and team style/mentality.
If you traded Curry and Green/Thompson (one of the two only), to Cleveland for Lebron and Irving.
Cleveland with Curry and Green; or with Curry and Thompson would win the finals. Lebron would still be on the losing end.
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Or James makes them around him worse. James needs to dominate the ball. Irving is a pg, who is supposed to have the ball in his hands to make things happen. With James, he is miscast.
Love is a guy that needs a good pg around him. James is not a pg and dominates the ball.
This is an example of the team being a very poor fit. James should not be paired with players like Irving/Love (incidentally, Irving/Love would work well together if the ball was in Irving's hands).
For Cleveland, you have a player (James) that dribble and hold the ball too much. Ball doesn't move. Defense becomes absurdly easy.
In GSW, you have players that work well together. No one dominates the ball. The ball is constantly moving. Everyone knows and is ok with their role. Ball flies, defense is very hard.
The problem is not the players' abilities. It is the coaching and team style/mentality.
If you traded Curry and Green/Thompson (one of the two only), to Cleveland for Lebron and Irving.
Cleveland with Curry and Green; or with Curry and Thompson would win the finals. Lebron would still be on the losing end.
This I don't agree with. LeBron clearly makes guys around him better. But the Cavs would be better if they let their GM do the work of a GM and LeBron do the work of a player. But instead LeBron gets to be GM, coach, and player.
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Cadavers
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This I don't agree with. LeBron clearly makes guys around him better. But the Cavs would be better if they let their GM do the work of a GM and LeBron do the work of a player. But instead LeBron gets to be GM, coach, and player.
Is Kevin Love better with Lebron?
Is Irving?
Was Wade?
Was Bosh?
Was Ilgauskas?
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Is Kevin Love better with Lebron?
Is Irving?
Was Wade?
Was Bosh?
Was Ilgauskas?
Again, this is not Lebron's fault.
GS has 4 players far better than anyone on Cleveland (except Lebron).
I picked GS in 6 before the series started just because of Lebron. Take him off of Cleveland and they are the Timberwolves.
Hopefully, for Cleveland, Love will miss a couple games so at least they have a chance.
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i picked the warriors in 5 and i'm almost feeling sorry for the cavs at this point. they look really lost. gs didn't even need the splash bros last night and ya'll saw what happened. cleveland might steal one at home, but stick da fork in them now. the looks on their faces is cruel punishment.
as i said in an earlier post somewhere, love just isn't the same player he was at lowly minnesota. what labron needs is a few warriors himself-wade, jae and jimmy eyn'a?
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Is Kevin Love better with Lebron?
Is Irving?
Was Wade?
Was Bosh?
Was Ilgauskas?
Statistically all but Irving were better without James as a teammate. But the same is true with James. His best years statistically were the last two he had in Cleveland because he had no one around him.
That's kind of the point right? Good players sacrificing statistically so they can win championships. Cause outside of Wade a decade ago, none of the teammates you mentioned got close to the Finals. I'm not even sure Love made the playoffs.
I'm beginning to think that wades is right about Love v. Wiggins and that was short-sighted. (I still think Blatt sucks though.)
I also do agree about the ball stopping in the Cavs offense. It becomes very apparent when you look at them versus the Warriors, Thunder (when they are good), Spurs, etc.
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At the end of the day, Lebron was given a LOT of power/control within the organization. It has been reported this is one of the reasons he agreed to come back to Cleveland. He made his bed and now he has to lie in it. My guess is that he'll be leaving Cleveland shortly and will take little-to-no responsibility for the state of the roster/organization that he had a large hand in creating.
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Statistically all but Irving were better without James as a teammate. But the same is true with James. His best years statistically were the last two he had in Cleveland because he had no one around him.
That's kind of the point right? Good players sacrificing statistically so they can win championships. Cause outside of Wade a decade ago, none of the teammates you mentioned got close to the Finals. I'm not even sure Love made the playoffs.
I'm beginning to think that wades is right about Love v. Wiggins and that was short-sighted. (I still think Blatt sucks though.)
I also do agree about the ball stopping in the Cavs offense. It becomes very apparent when you look at them versus the Warriors, Thunder (when they are good), Spurs, etc.
You seem to recognize that a true assessment of players requires comparisons - how good they are compared to others, how well they play on one team as opposed to another, etc.
Then you make the categorical statement that "Blatt sucks." Isn't the more relevant question whether they'd be more competitive right now with Blatt than Lue? I'd argue that they would be. And the fact that they're stuck with Lue is on LeBron.
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I think Blatt clearly knows basketball. I think Blatt struggled with communicating with his players. I'm sure he's a nice guy and knows his Xs and Os. I don't think he makes a good NBA coach where it is oftentimes the off court stuff that is so very important.
I don't think Lue is good either though.
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As a Cavs fan, this is obviously disappointing. I picked the Cavs in six, but was fully aware I was picking with my heart more than my head. It's unfortunate to see them playing the way that they're playing. It's a different team than played the other rounds of the playoffs. I'm sure some of that is attributable to Golden State, but some I just don't understand. The ball movement is gone. In my head I always knew that they'd probably lose to a team that is undeniably an all-time great team (at least single season), but I didn't expect such humiliating losses. Hopefully they can salvage some respectability.
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Statistically all but Irving were better without James as a teammate. But the same is true with James. His best years statistically were the last two he had in Cleveland because he had no one around him.
That's kind of the point right? Good players sacrificing statistically so they can win championships. Cause outside of Wade a decade ago, none of the teammates you mentioned got close to the Finals. I'm not even sure Love made the playoffs.
Look at Jordan and Pippen. Statistically Pippen's best years were with Jordan. When Jordan Left, Pippen's performance declined significantly.
Jordan sacrificed some of his own shots/statistics, to make those around him better (he didn't do this in the very beginning of his career and didn't win championships because of it). Lebron doesn't. Everyone he plays with has their statistics cut.
I think GSW players all make each other better and if you took any one of them and put them on another team, their stats would decline. If you took any player (not named Lebron) off Cleveland, their stats would increase.
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Look at Jordan and Pippen. Statistically Pippen's best years were with Jordan. When Jordan Left, Pippen's performance declined significantly.
That's actually not true. Pippen's best two years PPG and RPG wise were 1993-94 and 1994-95 - when Jordan temporarily retired. Those years were also when his efficiency and VORP peaked.
The very first year Jordan returned, he played less, shot less and rebounded less. However he did assist more.
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Pippen had his best season the year Jordan was enjoying his bush-league baseball odyssey. He was the ASG MVP and finished third in league MVP voting. His second-best statistical season was the following year -- before Jordan came back in March. He averaged more points, rebounds and steals than he ever did with MJ as a teammate.
Does that mean Jordan made Pippen "worse"? Or does it just mean Pippen's role simply was different because he was the main man sans Michael but was obvious second-banana as Jordan's teammate?
LeBron commands major attention from opposing defenses. He is a gifted passer and some of his critics say he is sometimes too unselfish. His rebounds and steals help his teammates get more and better shot attempts. He is a tremendous help defender who covers up his teammates' mistakes.
Anybody who really thinks LeBron made Bosh a "worse" player didn't watch the Heat very closely, IMHO. Bosh got more wide-open shots during his time with LeBron than he ever got without LBJ. Not to mention that LeBron took major pressure off Bosh and Wade.
On bad teams, yes, Irving and Love were "main men." It is now incumbent upon them to be better teammates. I mean, once upon a time, Earl Monroe and Jerry Lucas were absolute studs. But they knew the only way they could win a championship was to buy into being great teammates to Clyde, Willis and DeBusschere.
I'm not absolving LeBron of his role, but please.
As for him "playing GM," what the hell do people think Magic did? Kobe, Michael, Isiah, too. Stop it.
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Look at Jordan and Pippen. Statistically Pippen's best years were with Jordan. When Jordan Left, Pippen's performance declined significantly.
Jordan sacrificed some of his own shots/statistics, to make those around him better (he didn't do this in the very beginning of his career and didn't win championships because of it). Lebron doesn't. Everyone he plays with has their statistics cut.
I think GSW players all make each other better and if you took any one of them and put them on another team, their stats would decline. If you took any player (not named Lebron) off Cleveland, their stats would increase.
They make each other better, yes. But I think if a majority of them were on a different team most of them would have much better statistics. Curry, Klay, and Draymond would be roughly the same as they are on GS. But guys like Iggy, Barnes, Livingston, Barbosa, and Speights particularly, and even Ezili and Bogut, could be much more productive offensive players on teams other than the GSW. But who do you want getting more attempts, Curry and Klay or Barnes and Iggy? Not a question if you ask me.
Pippen had his best season the year Jordan was enjoying his bush-league baseball odyssey. He was the ASG MVP and finished third in league MVP voting. His second-best statistical season was the following year -- before Jordan came back in March. He averaged more points, rebounds and steals than he ever did with MJ as a teammate.
Does that mean Jordan made Pippen "worse"? Or does it just mean Pippen's role simply was different because he was the main man sans Michael but was obvious second-banana as Jordan's teammate?
LeBron commands major attention from opposing defenses. He is a gifted passer and some of his critics say he is sometimes too unselfish. His rebounds and steals help his teammates get more and better shot attempts. He is a tremendous help defender who covers up his teammates' mistakes.
Anybody who really thinks LeBron made Bosh a "worse" player didn't watch the Heat very closely, IMHO. Bosh got more wide-open shots during his time with LeBron than he ever got without LBJ. Not to mention that LeBron took major pressure off Bosh and Wade.
On bad teams, yes, Irving and Love were "main men." It is now incumbent upon them to be better teammates. I mean, once upon a time, Earl Monroe and Jerry Lucas were absolute studs. But they knew the only way they could win a championship was to buy into being great teammates to Clyde, Willis and DeBusschere.
I'm not absolving LeBron of his role, but please.
As for him "playing GM," what the hell do people think Magic did? Kobe, Michael, Isiah, too. Stop it.
LeBron's defense might be the most overrated individual defensive player in the league. Watch him play free safety and as a result his man gets a wide open look, and then he looks at his teammates with his palms up and his whiny face like, "How can you let this happen?!" when it's his man getting a wide open shot because he just decided to float around hoping for a lazy pass form the other team that he can turn into a breakaway dunk.
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Certain guys don't win championships. Love and Irving are this type. Carmelo and Harden are the same. They are alpha dog players whose game only compliments themselves.
If a team is vying for an NBA title - ala Houston, OKC, Toronto - would they be better off adding Love, Irving or Tristian Thompson if they are serious about winning?
Thompson would make each team better - I don't see how the other two would do that.
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http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106070DAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106020MIA.html
I will never forgive LeBron for these two dogsh*t performances.
He robbed Wade of another finals MVP because he either 1.) couldn't rise to the occasion or 2.) didn't want his first title to be a result of his teammate obviously playing at a higher level so he tanked it.
You can't be considered a top 5 player of all time when you deliver a finals performance that terrible in your prime without being injured.
Give me prime Wade (2006 - 2011) in crunch time over LeBron any day.
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http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106070DAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201106020MIA.html
I will never forgive LeBron for these two dogsh*t performances.
He robbed Wade of another finals MVP because he either 1.) couldn't rise to the occasion or 2.) didn't want his first title to be a result of his teammate obviously playing at a higher level so he tanked it.
You can't be considered a top 5 player of all time when you deliver a finals performance that terrible in your prime without being injured.
This is just silly.
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That's actually not true. Pippen's best two years PPG and RPG wise were 1993-94 and 1994-95 - when Jordan temporarily retired. Those years were also when his efficiency and VORP peaked.
The very first year Jordan returned, he played less, shot less and rebounded less. However he did assist more.
The statistical differences are minute in those years. Compare 91-92, 93-94, 94-95, 95-96, 96-97. Very consistent level of play with a small uptick without Jordan in 93-94 and 94-95.
Now, look at the difference between 97-98 (last year with Jordan) and thereafter. Massive drop off without Jordan.
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He was also 33.
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The statistical differences are minute in those years. Compare 91-92, 93-94, 94-95, 95-96, 96-97. Very consistent level of play with a small uptick without Jordan in 93-94 and 94-95.
Now, look at the difference between 97-98 (last year with Jordan) and thereafter. Massive drop off without Jordan.
So you're saying he got worse as he approached his mid-30s?
Who woulda thunk it?
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This is just silly.
How?
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How?
LeBron went to Miami to win. There's no way he was that petty to tank it. I'm not a LeBron fan but that is the biggest "LeBron hater" comment I've ever seen.
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Furthermore you will "never forgive" (as if he needs your forgiveness) about two games played five years ago is silly. He helped get Wade two additional titles - titles he very likely would not have won otherwise. And the accusation of tanking is ridiculous.
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LeBron went to Miami to win. There's no way he was that petty to tank it. I'm not a LeBron fan but that is the biggest "LeBron hater" comment I've ever seen.
+1000
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He was also 33.
So he went from performing the same for years at 32, to a drastic drop in production when he turned 33 and then maintained a steady output for a couple more years.
That turning to 33, really bit him in the butt. Or, Jordan made him better and when Jordan left, his production declined as focus turned to him defensively.
Wade is the good counter comparison to Pippen (similar ages when star leaves). Wade maintained production after Lebron, despite aging. Pippen fell dramatically.
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LeBron went to Miami to win. There's no way he was that petty to tank it. I'm not a LeBron fan but that is the biggest "LeBron hater" comment I've ever seen.
I said or. There were two options, that was one. If he didn't tank it, it was a pathetic choke job. Neither is good.
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So he went from performing the same for years at 32, to a drastic drop in production when he turned 33 and then maintained a steady output for a couple more years.
That turning to 33, really bit him in the butt. Or, Jordan made him better and when Jordan left, his production declined as focus turned to him defensively.
Wade is the good counter comparison to Pippen (similar ages when star leaves). Wade maintained production after Lebron, despite aging. Pippen fell dramatically.
That sounds more about Pippen than it does anything else. Again, Pippen's production increased when Jordan first retired. Just like your not as good as Larry Bird statement, I think you are searching for reasons to degrade James.
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I think Blatt clearly knows basketball. I think Blatt struggled with communicating with his players. I'm sure he's a nice guy and knows his Xs and Os. I don't think he makes a good NBA coach where it is oftentimes the off court stuff that is so very important.
I don't think Lue is good either though.
Fair assessment on both coaches.
But when Cleveland came as close as they did last season with Irving injured - and they had every reason to believe they'd do as well or better this season - it was dumb to can the guy who got them there (and was 30-11 this season, mostly without Irving again) in favor of an unproven coach.
Lue might end up being a good coach in the long run, but guys who "might be good coaches in the long run" aren't the best choices for championship-ready teams. They're the guys who should be hired by young, developing teams.
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Furthermore you will "never forgive" (as if he needs your forgiveness) about two games played five years ago is silly. He helped get Wade two additional titles - titles he very likely would not have won otherwise. And the accusation of tanking is ridiculous.
This is what I mean though. He used that horrid performance to convince Wade over the ensuing offseason that it couldn't be a 1A/1B setup. LeBron had to be the clear #1 or he wouldn't be able to thrive. And Wade acquiesced in the name of titles. If LeBron had done the same for Wade in 2011, he'd be one of my favorite players of all time. But either he couldn't or he wouldn't. Can you name another supposed top 5/10 player all-time that had a similar finals performance when fully healthy? In his second go-round no less? He EITHER choked or tanked. Those are the only options. One is an indictment of his ability to rise to the occasion, the other is an indictment of his ability to sacrifice ego for titles. Whichever one it is, it disqualifies him from any claim of top 5/10 all-time. And it had a direct negative effect on Wade's legacy. Shameful.
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Oh please. James is one of the top 5/10 of all time regardless of his performance in that Finals. Even if he "choked," he followed it up the next three years with two additional titles and another Finals appearance. If you are going to focus on that single Finals as the one defining moment in his career go right ahead...but I think it's silly.
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Oh please. James is one of the top 5/10 of all time regardless of his performance in that Finals. Even if he "choked," he followed it up the next three years with two additional titles and another Finals appearance. If you are going to focus on that single Finals as the one defining moment in his career go right ahead...but I think it's silly.
No. I'd rather have, at minimum, in no particular order off the top of my head:
Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Curry
Olajuwon
2006-2011 Prime Wade
He's top 15-20 for sure. Nothing to sneeze at. Just not top 5/10. 2011 finals performance is just a microcosm of why I wouldn't put him top 10, not the only reason.
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OK I can't disagree with a lot of these. Maybe a quibble here and there (Olajuwon...Curry (time will tell)...Shaq). Except Bird. I wish people would stop putting Bird in there. He is not in that same class.
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No. I'd rather have, at minimum, in no particular order off the top of my head:
Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Curry
Olajuwon
2006-2011 Prime Wade
He's top 15-20 for sure. Nothing to sneeze at. Just not top 5/10. 2011 finals performance is just a microcosm of why I wouldn't put him top 10, not the only reason.
You are simply a Lebron hater. You have shown no rational thought except that you hate Lebron.
Just say that and let it go.
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No. I'd rather have, at minimum, in no particular order off the top of my head:
Jordan
Shaq
Magic
Kareem
Duncan
Russell
Kobe
Bird
Curry
Olajuwon
2006-2011 Prime Wade
He's top 15-20 for sure. Nothing to sneeze at. Just not top 5/10. 2011 finals performance is just a microcosm of why I wouldn't put him top 10, not the only reason.
Disagree with Shaq and Bird, and probably Duncan and Olajuwon.
I would, however, add Chamberlain.
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Disagree with Shaq and Bird, and probably Duncan and Olajuwon.
I would, however, add Chamberlain.
I'd also add Oscar Robinson.
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You are simply a Lebron hater. You have shown no rational thought except that you hate Lebron.
Just say that and let it go.
Since when is calling someone a top 15-20 player all-time an insult? He's definitely closer to 15 than the ludicrous #3 all-time that ESPN ranked him recently. If he can be honest with himself, dominate the ball less, and morph his game into a PF and win another championship before it's all said and done that would impress me enough to put him top 10. There's still time, but he's not there yet in my mind.
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I'd also add Oscar Robinson.
I could agree with Wilt and Oscar ahead of him. Definitely his equals at this point in time at bare minimum
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Disagree with Shaq and Bird, and probably Duncan and Olajuwon.
I would, however, add Chamberlain.
Shaq daddy was more dominant than LeBron ever was for that 3 year title stretch. Check the numbers, they're patently absurd. He put up 38/17, 33/16, and 36/12 in 3 consecutive finals on 60+% shooting. 100% you take Shaq vs. LeBron's current resume.
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Shaq daddy was more dominant than LeBron ever was for that 3 year title stretch. Check the numbers, they're patently absurd. He put up 38/17, 33/16, and 36/12 in 3 consecutive finals on 60+% shooting. 100% you take Shaq vs. LeBron's current resume.
Yes, those numbers are impressive. Still, it's not easy for me to tout a guy who had to sit during the fourth quarter of playoff games -- including Finals games -- because he couldn't make an effen free throw.
Furthermore, Shaq wins nothing without Kobe and Wade. Nothing. Kobe and Wade have won without Shaq. He never won without an alpha-male guard.
The thing that always cracked me up about Shaq's FTs was that he claimed he made most of them in practice. In other words, he was publicly stating that he choked in games.
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Yes, those numbers are impressive. Still, it's not easy for me to tout a guy who had to sit during the fourth quarter of playoff games -- including Finals games -- because he couldn't make an effen free throw.
Furthermore, Shaq wins nothing without Kobe and Wade. Nothing. Kobe and Wade have won without Shaq. He never won without an alpha-male guard.
The thing that always cracked me up about Shaq's FTs was that he claimed he made most of them in practice. In other words, he was publicly stating that he choked in games.
Can't we also say that Lebron would never win without Wade and Bosh?
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Can't we also say that Lebron would never win without Wade and Bosh?
To this point, that is certainly true.
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And Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen. And Magic Johnson never won without Kareem. Kareem never won without a HOF teammate. Neither did Russell. Or Chamberlain.
In fact the last time I think any team won without two HOFers, or players presumably making the HOF, are the Bad Boys Pistons teams. Before that you have to go back to the Golden State team of the mid 70s.
The fact is its very hard to win an NBA title without multiple, elite level players.
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And Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen. And Magic Johnson never won without Kareem. Kareem never won without a HOF teammate. Neither did Russell. Or Chamberlain.
In fact the last time I think any team won without two HOFers, or players presumably making the HOF, are the Bad Boys Pistons teams. Before that you have to go back to the Golden State team of the mid 70s.
The fact is its very hard to win an NBA title without multiple, elite level players.
Are Chauncey and Rip HOFers? Do Curry, Klay, and Draymond all get into the HOF? Does Pao get into the HOF?
Is Wade's performance in his first NBA Finals appearance the best in the last 30 years? He legitimately completely carried the Heat to a Title by himself. Shaq is obviously an HOFer, but he was also obviously way past his prime that season (but still was okay).
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wades, to be honest I skipped over that Detroit team. Good catch. Pao should be in the HOF. Way too early to determine this GSW team.
Wade's appearance in the Finals is the best I have ever seen. But I'm biased.
I also think that Lebron's work in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals (after Game 2) was one of the best I have ever seen. The fact that he dragged that junk of a roster to the Finals was pretty incredible.
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wades, to be honest I skipped over that Detroit team. Good catch. Pao should be in the HOF. Way too early to determine this GSW team.
Wade's appearance in the Finals is the best I have ever seen. But I'm biased.
I also think that Lebron's work in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals (after Game 2) was one of the best I have ever seen. The fact that he dragged that junk of a roster to the Finals was pretty incredible.
Nobody, carried a team to the NBA Finals with less than Allen Iverson in 2001. I looked up that roster, it was absolutely dreadful.
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Nobody, carried a team to the NBA Finals with less than Allen Iverson in 2001. I looked up that roster, it was absolutely dreadful.
Except they landed Dikembe at the trade deadline that year. He ended up as the DPOY and All-NBA Second team.
And Glenn Robinson missed that damn layup in Game 5.
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wades, to be honest I skipped over that Detroit team. Good catch. Pao should be in the HOF. Way too early to determine this GSW team.
Wade's appearance in the Finals is the best I have ever seen. But I'm biased.
I also think that Lebron's work in the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals (after Game 2) was one of the best I have ever seen. The fact that he dragged that junk of a roster to the Finals was pretty incredible.
I honestly don't know the answers to those guys. I think Chauncey is a fairly certain HOFer. I don't think Rip did it at a HOF level for nearly long enough. Rasheed? I don't think so but a tiny chance I guess. No to Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince. That's about it for that team.
Interestingly...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html
Didn't look into their methods but they have Iggy listed as having a probability while not listing Draymond or Klay.
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I just don't think Draymond or Klay have played long enough.
And thanks for that list. Noticed that Jack Sikma isn't in the HOF. I assumed he was, so you can add the 1979 Sonics team as another one with only one HOFer. (Dennis Johnson)
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Cleveland has to chance for a win tonight with Love out of the game.
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And Michael Jordan never won without Scottie Pippen. And Magic Johnson never won without Kareem. Kareem never won without a HOF teammate. Neither did Russell. Or Chamberlain.
In fact the last time I think any team won without two HOFers, or players presumably making the HOF, are the Bad Boys Pistons teams. Before that you have to go back to the Golden State team of the mid 70s.
The fact is its very hard to win an NBA title without multiple, elite level players.
A difficult aspect of looking at things this way is, were the sidekicks HOF players if they did not play with Jordan, Magic/Kareem, Russell, Bird etc.
Those teams typically always stayed together, so much of their HOF success is associated with playing together as a team.
One could argue that those players made others around them HOF players. Apparently Lebron can't. He needs to team up with players that made themselves HOF; and when he does, they play worse than they did before.
I'm not actually arguing the above, just pointing out the problems with such analysis. It is all completely subjective. They did play together and their mutual success contributed to people becoming HOF.
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A difficult aspect of looking at things this way is, were the sidekicks HOF players if they did not play with Jordan, Magic/Kareem, Russell, Bird etc.
Those teams typically always stayed together, so much of their HOF success is associated with playing together as a team.
One could argue that those players made others around them HOF players. Apparently Lebron can't. He needs to team up with players that made themselves HOF; and when he does, they play worse than they did before.
I'm not actually arguing the above, just pointing out the problems with such analysis. It is all completely subjective. They did play together and their mutual success contributed to people becoming HOF.
Great players don't need other players to be great. Winning titles may be linked to playing with other great players - but being a star does not.
And it is insulting to say a certain player is great only because he played with another player. Magic didn't make Kareem a better player or vice versa. Jordan didn't make Pippen better. Pippen was a great player.
Lebron didn't need to make Wade or Bosh better. They were both going to be in the HoF whether or not they played with Lebron.
But Love is not Bosh and Irving is not Wade. In fact, neither one is even close. That is why the Cavs are losing. The Cavs have one great player. GS has one great player and three very, very good players who are better than anyone that Lebron has on his side.
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I'd also add Oscar Robinson.
i was also thinking of the "big O" myself. i saw him play the bucks in the old arena when he was with the cincinnati royals. kareem was very good, of course, but when they brought in the "big O" is what put them over the top to win the big one. yes kareem was dominating by himself, and the "big O" was dominating by himself, but you put them together and...
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Great players don't need other players to be great. Winning titles may be linked to playing with other great players - but being a star does not.
And it is insulting to say a certain player is great only because he played with another player. Magic didn't make Kareem a better player or vice versa. Jordan didn't make Pippen better. Pippen was a great player.
Lebron didn't need to make Wade or Bosh better. They were both going to be in the HoF whether or not they played with Lebron.
But Love is not Bosh and Irving is not Wade. In fact, neither one is even close. That is why the Cavs are losing. The Cavs have one great player. GS has one great player and three very, very good players who are better than anyone that Lebron has on his side.
Kyrie Irving has been in the league 5 years now. He is already a 3-time all star.
He already is a great player. Lebron makes him worse by taking him out of his game (Kyrie needs to have the ball in his hands all the time).
Love is a three time all star. Before coming to play with Lebron he average 26 pts 13 rebounds. Those are MVP type numbers (PER was 26.1).
Saying that they aren't great players is absurd. One only does that to help explain Lebron's lack of success with them. With the talent they have they should be winning close to 70 games in the East. They only won 57.
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Also, the officiating in this game is why I often say the NBA is essentially WWE, mostly rigged, but the athletes still need to perform.
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Also, the officiating in this game is why I often say the NBA is essentially WWE, mostly rigged, but the athletes still need to perform.
Just when you make a few good points, you drop this.
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https://twitter.com/bkoo/status/740729867155574784
So rigged that they have rendered their primary product non competitive.
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Just when you make a few good points, you drop this.
My statement is over the top. Yes. I was grossly exaggerating the situation. But if you are watching this game and think any aspect of it is officiated equally you are as delusional as my previous post.
It reminds me of the Kobe (lakers) days. They were going to do everything physically possible to make sure the Lakers got titles.
Funny thing is, Cleveland would be winning regardless of officiating. It is just making it a bad game to watch.
(I have a bad habit of using over the top language; I don't actually mean the extremes that the words suggest).
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Please. The game has been reffed fine. You NBA tin foil hatters amaze me. It's almost like people don't watch the game.
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That was incredible
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Cadavers showing some life tonight.
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That was incredible
Definitely agree. Very impressive.
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Kinda reminds me of my runaway one handed dunk in the Rec center in 1981.
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Definitely agree. Very impressive.
What did I miss?
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Monster dunk by James.
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Please. The game has been reffed fine. You NBA tin foil hatters amaze me. It's almost like people don't watch the game.
I think people like you that watch the NBA a lot, and have watched it as a big fan for many years are oblivious to the absurdity of NBA officiating. You just see it as normal and correct.
To people that are lifelong basketball players first, and college fans second and only casual NBA fans, we observe how poorly and unbalanced the officiating often is in the NBA.
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What did I miss?
Alley-oop to James. Think the famous Grant Hill alley-oop where he has to grab the ball from behind his head two feet above the rim and still somehow dunk it.
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I think people like you that watch the NBA a lot, and have watched it as a big fan for many years are oblivious to the absurdity of NBA officiating. You just see it as normal and correct.
To people that are lifelong basketball players first, and college fans second and only casual NBA fans, we observe how poorly and unbalanced the officiating often is in the NBA.
You're way, way off on this.
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I think people like you that watch the NBA a lot, and have watched it as a big fan for many years are oblivious to the absurdity of NBA officiating. You just see it as normal and correct.
To people that are lifelong basketball players first, and college fans second and only casual NBA fans, we observe how poorly and unbalanced the officiating often is in the NBA.
I watch all forms of basketball. The reffing is different in the NBA. They allow more contact in general. That doesn't make it rigged. Not even close.
In fact I think NBA reffing is BY FAR more consistent than any other level of basketball.
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You're way, way off on this.
Remember, an ex-NBA official admitted that the NBA headquarters direct them to favor certain teams or players.
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I watch all forms of basketball. The reffing is different in the NBA. They allow more contact in general. That doesn't make it rigged. Not even close.
In fact I think NBA reffing is BY FAR more consistent than any other level of basketball.
I can't believe anyone can say this with a straight face. Look at just Lebron (its not just him). He shoves off on every play. Any other player in the NBA and those are offensive fouls.
Not for a star (Curry would likely get the same benefit of the doubt). But if you even touch Lebron when he's driving, he's shooting FTs. Same play, but Lebon on the D, and no call.
The star treatment in the NBA is what got me to quit watching during the regular season. Games were just too painful. Great entertainment if you weren't looking for pure basketball.
Again, this is just my opinion. The NBA is not for all fans.
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The NBA, where the greatest basketball is played, is not for all fans.
Just for fans that appreciate the sport played at the highest level.
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Kinda reminds me of my runaway one handed dunk in the Rec center in 1981.
I see what you did there.
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Wonder if the Cavs will hire someone to go all Tonya Harding on Kevin Love.
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Remember, an ex-NBA official admitted that the NBA headquarters direct them to favor certain teams or players.
You mean the ex-NBA official that was sent to prison for betting on games? The one who's conspiracy story was corroborated by no one else?
Yeah. Run with that.
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I can't believe anyone can say this with a straight face. Look at just Lebron (its not just him). He shoves off on every play. Any other player in the NBA and those are offensive fouls.
That's simply inaccurate.
You are admitting you are only a casual fan, yet you are making statements like you watch the game often.
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My statement is over the top. Yes. I was grossly exaggerating the situation. But if you are watching this game and think any aspect of it is officiated equally you are as delusional as my previous post.
It reminds me of the Kobe (lakers) days. They were going to do everything physically possible to make sure the Lakers got titles.
Funny thing is, Cleveland would be winning regardless of officiating. It is just making it a bad game to watch.
(I have a bad habit of using over the top language; I don't actually mean the extremes that the words suggest).
Of course the NBA will fix things so that it goes at least 6 games
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I am fascinated by the fact that no one is going after Curry for his 3 terrible games in a row.
Can you imagine what a couple of our posters would be saying if Lebron played three consecutive games like that in the Finals? Heck, can you imagine the haters if he played three in a row like that during the regular season?
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I am fascinated by the fact that no one is going after Curry for his 3 terrible games in a row.
Can you imagine what a couple of our posters would be saying if Lebron played three consecutive games like that in the Finals? Heck, can you imagine the haters if he played three in a row like that during the regular season?
Yuppppppp
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forgetful:
So, you believe the NBA actually wanted the Spurs to win 5 titles and to be the most dominant team of the last generation?
brand:
Such a great point about Curry. My son and I were talking about just this today. LeBron would be getting KILLED for anything close to that kind of performance. It's not just the lack of scoring. He looks lost out there. The turnovers! I actually HOPE he's hurt, because otherwise ... yikes!
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It's rigged for Lebron.
It's not rigged for Curry.
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How is this thread still going? The amount of HOT TAKES is amazing. It's like if Skip Bayless and Stephen A. had a love child that just spit hot fire.
Keep it up gents.
(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/64506856.jpg)
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forgetful:
So, you believe the NBA actually wanted the Spurs to win 5 titles and to be the most dominant team of the last generation?
brand:
Such a great point about Curry. My son and I were talking about just this today. LeBron would be getting KILLED for anything close to that kind of performance. It's not just the lack of scoring. He looks lost out there. The turnovers! I actually HOPE he's hurt, because otherwise ... yikes!
The Spurs won 5 titles over a span of 15 years. They lost one other year.
During that same time:
The Lakers won 5 titles and lost 2 other titles.
The Lakers are the most dominant team of the last generation. And the Lakers were most definitely aided by manipulation of games by the NBA (2002 cough cough).
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It's rigged for Lebron.
It's not rigged for Curry.
Not sure if this is teal or not, but Lebron ran a guy over yesterday, got the blocking call, and Mark Jackson praised him for "inciting contact". He looked like Marshawn Lynch hitting the hole. Like him or not, no other player in the league gets that call consistently like he does. Combination of preferential treatment and freakish size.
As for Curry, he's not 100%. Hitting shots in some games and having stretches where he looks like his normal self doesn't mean he is. Its not black and white. He's the best shooter in history, even on one leg he's going to have runs, but his decision making and driving, his defense, all have suffered. The Cavs have switched a lot on him, which is smart, but he hasn't destroyed Irving yet, and Irving is a terrible defender. That alone tells you something.
He also already pulled out of the Olympics and its not like he already has a medal.
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Not sure if this is teal or not, but Lebron ran a guy over yesterday, got the blocking call, and Mark Jackson praised him for "inciting contact". He looked like Marshawn Lynch hitting the hole. Like him or not, no other player in the league gets that call consistently like he does. Combination of preferential treatment and freakish size.
As for Curry, he's not 100%. Hitting shots in some games and having stretches where he looks like his normal self doesn't mean he is. Its not black and white. He's the best shooter in history, even on one leg he's going to have runs, but his decision making and driving, his defense, all have suffered. The Cavs have switched a lot on him, which is smart, but he hasn't destroyed Irving yet, and Irving is a terrible defender. That alone tells you something.
He also already pulled out of the Olympics and its not like he already has a medal.
I think part of the problem is that charging/blocking calls are so different in the NBA than college.
In the NBA, you actually have to play defense. You have to beat the man to position. In college, inside the lane looks like a picket fence as guys line up to take charges.
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If you are talking about the Varejo foul that was 100% defensive. No doubt.
Or it's a conspiracy.
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If you are talking about the Varejo foul that was 100% defensive. No doubt.
Or it's a conspiracy.
Which one, the one where Varejo was driving and Lebron got in the way, or the one that Lebron was driving and Varejo got in the way.
Essentially same play a couple minutes apart. It was an offensive foul on Varejo, and a defensive foul on Varejo.
Another example of bias is on statistics. Two games ago Lebron was listed at having 6 TOs. He then committed two traveling violations. The announcers listed him at 8 TOs.
He then through a ball out of bounds. A minute later they list him at 7 TOs. Only player I know that can commit another TO and they start to subtract away later in the game.
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Man your conspiracies are getting weirder and weirder. Now the official scorers are padding Lebron's stats...
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Man your conspiracies are getting weirder and weirder. Now the official scorers are padding Lebron's stats...
I never said their was a conspiracy. But it did happen.
I didn't say they always do it, but they got it wrong in game 2. I had gone back and looked at it and they reassigned TOs to other players for bad passes from Lebron.
They went back an reassigned TOs to the person the ball was passed to instead of the person making the pass. That is not how it works.
And as an added aside. Official scorer bias towards stars is well known in just about every sport. It is not really a conspiracy. it is human nature.
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The Spurs won 5 titles over a span of 15 years. They lost one other year.
During that same time:
The Lakers won 5 titles and lost 2 other titles.
The Lakers are the most dominant team of the last generation. And the Lakers were most definitely aided by manipulation of games by the NBA (2002 cough cough).
OK, but did the NBA rig the 5 titles for the Spurs?
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I think people like you that watch the NBA a lot, and have watched it as a big fan for many years are oblivious to the absurdity of NBA officiating. You just see it as normal and correct.
To people that are lifelong basketball players first, and college fans second and only casual NBA fans, we observe how poorly and unbalanced the officiating often is in the NBA.
i realize i'm a day late here, but i have to throw forgetful a bone here. i agree 100%. i've played the game and i've watched it evolve. wowo! there are times when i wonder if i'm watching a combo of rugby, hockey and basketball. the amount of contact is immeasurable. i don't know what the standards for a foul are anymore. bodies flying around, 3, 4 steps, what pivot foot? i just about soiled myself when they actually called a traveling on lebron the other night. it's gotten to the point re:fouls that when one is called, the players look incredulous. i was watching adams in a game throw moving picks like he was a pulling guard. in the middle, when guys are trying to pass thru the lane, the defenders just grab them by the jersey??
there seems to be times when the refs just let everything go and then they must get together and say-ok, time to calm things down a little. or how about in college? how many times would it be like 7-1 in team fouls and...just wait...here they come, tweet tweet tweet fixed it. 3-4 quick ones and no problem. college refs are the worst at consistency. just when the players get a feel for how the gang is calling the game, the 2nd half is completely different and fouls that previously drew blood are now "patty cake" fouls
oh, the short version-you're onto something here. i know we may go a little over the top, but there are no real standards for what constitutes a foul, double dribble, traveling, oh, 3 seconds? when have you heard that one lately?
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I think historically referees have given teams down 2-0 coming home in playoff series special treatment (as the NBA hates sweeps) and the stars are definitely protected more than a little. Beyond that, not so much.
The one time I thought things felt rigged at the time was actually Wade's first championship with the Heat. I was rooting for the Heat because of Wade (and Shaq because I hate Kobe Bryant) in that series and couldn't believe how they got every single call. I don't normally notice bad officiating when it helps my team, but that was blatant. I think Cuban actually paid former FBI guys to investigate or something, but I am hazy on the details.
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The game was more physical a generation ago. Has anybody else noticed that Golden State's lineup of death is Steph Curry and 4 switchables?
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i realize i'm a day late here, but i have to throw forgetful a bone here. i agree 100%. i've played the game and i've watched it evolve. wowo! there are times when i wonder if i'm watching a combo of rugby, hockey and basketball. the amount of contact is immeasurable.
As tower said, there was much more contact 30 years ago.
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The game was more physical a generation ago. Has anybody else noticed that Golden State's lineup of death is Steph Curry and 4 switchables?
Yes but their switchables go 6'8" 225, 6'7" 230, 6'7" 215, 6'6" 215, and all 4 of them defend bigger than they are.
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Effin, overrated POS.
(https://i.imgur.com/EbBv3rn.png)
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I think historically referees have given teams down 2-0 coming home in playoff series special treatment (as the NBA hates sweeps) and the stars are definitely protected more than a little. Beyond that, not so much.
The one time I thought things felt rigged at the time was actually Wade's first championship with the Heat. I was rooting for the Heat because of Wade (and Shaq because I hate Kobe Bryant) in that series and couldn't believe how they got every single call. I don't normally notice bad officiating when it helps my team, but that was blatant. I think Cuban actually paid former FBI guys to investigate or something, but I am hazy on the details.
One thing that a lot of people don't take into account is that most stars in the NBA play to contact rather than trying to avoid it as we see in college.
We get used to watching Duane Wilson or Haanif try to slither through an opening, whereas Lebron takes it right to the defender. Most of the great scorers in the NBA do that
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(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/carmelo-anthony-travels-against-brooklyn.gif)
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/dj-augustine-should-have-been-called-for-a-travel.gif)
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Traveling? I don't see no stinkin' traveling.
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I think historically referees have given teams down 2-0 coming home in playoff series special treatment (as the NBA hates sweeps) and the stars are definitely protected more than a little. Beyond that, not so much.
Nailed it.
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As tower said, there was much more contact 30 years ago.
i can't totally disagree with that as i remember well some of the battles kareem had to put up with. one of his chief nemesis' was dennis autry with the 76'ers. autry had very little b-ball talent, so he was b-balls version of a goon. other well fought battles-wes unseld, willis reed, come to mind
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As tower said, there was much more contact 30 years ago.
Except that is patently false. People always say that. I watched a lot of NBA basketball a generation ago. Go back and watch the 1984 finals (I rewatched game 7 today to see if I was misremembering). There is far far less contact. The NBA players of today would foul out within the first period.
We remember more contact, because when they wanted to foul you it was going to be a very hard contact foul (would be a flagrant today), but overall far less contact.
Normal contact today was a foul then.
Basketball is an entirely different game. As rocket said it is more of a cross between rugby, hockey and basketball.
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My thought on why Curry and Klay aren't playing well? And even LeBron shooting a low percentage? The refs let players play more physical defense in the Playoffs and especially in the Finals. The Cavs are beating them the heck up off the ball and making them catch it so far from the basket.
Having said that, there are still obviously calls made. What I don't get is how they let absolutely anything go when going for rebounds. Cleveland has realized that and been much more aggressive on the boards, but it's not like they're calling it on GSW and not on the Cavs. Thompson, Love, LeBron, and Kyrie all just push, pull, grab, do anything they can to get the boards and they're letting both teams do that as much as they want.
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I'm talking about the Pistons, the Knicks, the Bulls.
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That is one problem I will always have with any ref in any sport. When you blow an obvious call don't go and compound it by T'ing up a bench that gets upset by it (especially when the clock reads 0:00.00 and they can get up and head to the locker room anyway).
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Except that is patently false. People always say that. I watched a lot of NBA basketball a generation ago. Go back and watch the 1984 finals (I rewatched game 7 today to see if I was misremembering). There is far far less contact. The NBA players of today would foul out within the first period.
We remember more contact, because when they wanted to foul you it was going to be a very hard contact foul (would be a flagrant today), but overall far less contact.
Normal contact today was a foul then.
Basketball is an entirely different game. As rocket said it is more of a cross between rugby, hockey and basketball.
Then don't watch it. I really don't care and I find your observations largely off base anyway.
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LeBron has totally lost his composure tonight. Green and Curry are seriously inside his head.
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Agreed. The ball stopped again down the stretch. Really very poor second half by cavs.
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LeBron has totally lost his composure tonight. Green and Curry are seriously inside his head.
Iggy's been in his head since game 4 of last year.
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LeBron has totally lost his composure tonight. Green and Curry are seriously inside his head.
Great confrontation between Lebron and Green tonight.
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Great confrontation between Lebron and Green tonight.
And then LeBron trying to stop Curry from talking to the ref. Hilarious. The irony...
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I'm talking about the Pistons, the Knicks, the Bulls.
Those teams were often brutally physical.
But that was because when they wanted to hit you, they hit you really hard (what I referred to as flagrants). The idea was make them suffer. Literally hurt them.
Honestly, if Lebron tried the drive into the defender and push off to a guy like Laimbeer or Rodman, they wouldn't need to worry about blowing the whistle for an offensive foul, because Laimbeer or Rodman would probably of broke Lebron's nose/jaw with an elbow or punch back to the face.
The thing was though, that very very physical play was always called a foul. I like that style. Be as physical as you can be, but call those plays fouls.
What I'm really commenting on is the absurd moving screens (often just pushing a guy with two hands), the offensive fouls (shoving off with the forearm), and off the ball fouls (e.g. grabbing, holding, pushing a cutter) in todays game.
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"What I'm really commenting on is the absurd moving screens (often just pushing a guy with two hands), the offensive fouls (shoving off with the forearm), and off the ball fouls (e.g. grabbing, holding, pushing a cutter) in todays game. "
so now, good defense is grabbing the opposing player, spinning him around and preenting him from getting the ball.
good blocking out is timing your shove of opposing player from under basket, off the floor as the ball is coming in from a shot
act like you are trying to avoid stepping on opposing player by stepping over him multiple times
players take 3 steps every time they receive the ball up top before they put it down to dribble
even mike breen commented on the change of calls during playoff games from regular season-it's like how much can i get away with?
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Then. Stop. Watching.
Seriously I don't get you people who don't watch the NBA...watch during the playoffs...and then do nothing but BITCH about the refereeing. And then bring up 20 year old conspiracy theories blah blah blah...
If it bothers you so much, go knit a doily. Read a book. Take a walk.
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Keys from the game last night:
-Iggy's defense. It is absolutely incredible, breathtaking to watch at times.
-Lue played Lebron and Kyrie the whole second half. Kyrie was GASSED at the end of the game and it showed. Rookie coaching errors
-Lebron is rightly praised for his unselfishness, but there were 2-3 stretches in the game last night where it was right for him to try to take over and he was deferential. Would drive straight into the GS defense and kick it back out for a reset. Or let Kyrie take the reins, it was odd to say the least. Almost like he senses the inevitable.
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The Cavs offense at the end reverted back to the "spread the floor and go one-on-one" crap that hasn't worked for them all series. I don't know if they do that because they are gassed, or because they actually think that's going to work despite the fact that it really hasn't.
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Then. Stop. Watching.
Seriously I don't get you people who don't watch the NBA...watch during the playoffs...and then do nothing but BITCH about the refereeing. And then bring up 20 year old conspiracy theories blah blah blah...
If it bothers you so much, go knit a doily. Read a book. Take a walk.
my my my, you're a touchy son uv a gun. can't a guy express what he sees or how he sees it? you may disagree, but don't tell me it's not happening like you do with others and their sharing an experience or observation. i just find it kind of incredulous, but very entertaining if you don't mind. or is everything sposed to be sunshines way. i've been watching the NBA for damn near 50 years and find it's evolution as with the college and high school games quite amazing. if you want to disagree, then disagree. what i don't understand is why you take it so personal...ride the bus man
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the cavs were so out of confidence with their 3 point shooting, they tried to trade baskets at the end=fail. when they were still in it with 2-3 min. left and tried driving the lane, GS was too quick, quick hands, etc. you don't have to be a big man anymore to block shots
was that a little better S of S? ::)
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my my my, you're a touchy son uv a gun. can't a guy express what he sees or how he sees it? you may disagree, but don't tell me it's not happening like you do with others and their sharing an experience or observation. i just find it kind of incredulous, but very entertaining if you don't mind. or is everything sposed to be sunshines way. i've been watching the NBA for damn near 50 years and find it's evolution as with the college and high school games quite amazing. if you want to disagree, then disagree. what i don't understand is why you take it so personal...ride the bus man
Reading your observations leads me to believe you haven't watched the NBA much over the past 50 years.
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Reading your observations leads me to believe you haven't watched the NBA much over the past 50 years.
well, i'd tell you my dad split season tix with the local pharmacist in town back in the late 60's to early 70's. i was 10 years old. it was during the bucks inaugural years through their championship year and a few years beyond. 6th row seats right off the north basket, right next to the aisle the bucks entered. they were $12 per seat/game. you could pat kareem on the head if ya wanted. but then you'd just say NO and that i was lying anyway. so what's the use.
i have been to many many games and watched countless on tv. if someone would've asked me or there was a board to respond to over those years, i'd say the same thing. just sayin that i'm incredulous at the evolution of the game. is that allowed? or do we all just have to bow to S of S?
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my my my, you're a touchy son uv a gun. can't a guy express what he sees or how he sees it? you may disagree, but don't tell me it's not happening like you do with others and their sharing an experience or observation. i just find it kind of incredulous, but very entertaining if you don't mind. or is everything sposed to be sunshines way. i've been watching the NBA for damn near 50 years and find it's evolution as with the college and high school games quite amazing. if you want to disagree, then disagree. what i don't understand is why you take it so personal...ride the bus man
Rocket, we are on the same page. I haven't been on the earth long enough to watch the NBA for 50 years, but watched it religiously for about 25. Then over the last 10, I just cannot get myself to watch a lot of the regular season (too many games, players don't take them as seriously).
Many I know that have watcher religiously over the same time agree with our observations. Many of my friends have said they don't care; they watch it for entertainment, not the quality of basketball (in reference to rules).
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The Cavs offense at the end reverted back to the "spread the floor and go one-on-one" crap that hasn't worked for them all series. I don't know if they do that because they are gassed, or because they actually think that's going to work despite the fact that it really hasn't.
If you watched when it switched; it was when Lebron went back to dominating the ball. Needing to bring it up and dribbling for 15 seconds before doing anything.
Earlier in the game, Kyrie (who has been the best player on the floor the last two games), controlled the ball much more. The game is more fluid with the ball in the hands of a PG.
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If you watched when it switched; it was when Lebron went back to dominating the ball. Needing to bring it up and dribbling for 15 seconds before doing anything.
Earlier in the game, Kyrie (who has been the best player on the floor the last two games), controlled the ball much more. The game is more fluid with the ball in the hands of a PG.
Irving had the ball plenty and sucked in the fourth quarter. During an 8 minute stretch when it was a tie game to when they went down 10, he went 2/8. Lebron wasn't much better at 1/3.
11:33 Kevin Love makes 8-foot two point shot (Kyrie Irving assists) 79 - 79
11:02 LeBron James makes driving layup 79 - 81
10:22 Kyrie Irving misses driving layup 81 - 81
10:21 LeBron James makes dunk 81 - 83
9:41 Andre Iguodala blocks LeBron James 's 3-foot jumper 84 - 83
9:11 LeBron James misses 25-foot three point jumper 84 - 83
8:12 Kyrie Irving misses 5-foot jumper 88 - 83
7:30 Kyrie Irving makes free throw 1 of 2 88 - 84
7:30 Kyrie Irving misses free throw 2 of 2 88 - 84
7:05 Kyrie Irving misses 26-foot three point jumper 88 - 84
6:41 Kevin Love misses 26-foot three point jumper 90 - 84
6:13 Kyrie Irving misses 3-foot jumper 90 - 84
5:13 Klay Thompson blocks Kyrie Irving's layup 93 - 84
4:43 LeBron James misses 25-foot three point jumper 93 - 84
3:44 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup 93 - 86
3:02 Kyrie Irving misses three point jumper 96 - 86
2:26 Kyrie Irving misses driving layup 96 - 86
2:08 Kyrie Irving makes two point shot (LeBron James assists) 96 - 88
1:12 LeBron James makes free throw 1 of 2 96 - 89
1:12 LeBron James misses free throw 2 of 2 96 - 89
0:45 LeBron James makes driving layup 98 - 91
0:31 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup 100 - 93
0:23 LeBron James makes driving layup 102 - 95
0:14 LeBron James makes driving dunk 104 - 97
Irving: 3/9; 2/2 FT
James: 4/7 (2/5 outside of garbage time); 1/2 FT
Love: 1/2
Yeah but it's all Lebron's fault.
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Earlier in the game, Kyrie (who has been the best player on the floor the last two games), controlled the ball much more. The game is more fluid with the ball in the hands of a PG.
Not even close. No one who only plays 50% of the game is ever the best player on the floor.
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Rocket, we are on the same page. I haven't been on the earth long enough to watch the NBA for 50 years, but watched it religiously for about 25. Then over the last 10, I just cannot get myself to watch a lot of the regular season (too many games, players don't take them as seriously).
Many I know that have watcher religiously over the same time agree with our observations. Many of my friends have said they don't care; they watch it for entertainment, not the quality of basketball (in reference to rules).
i'll admit, my interest waned some over the last 5-10 years or so, since the bucks have really really struggled. however, i have watched enough to know what i am seeing. there is a big difference between the regular season and playoffs re:how the game is called. a couple of reasons i have begone to watch a little more than usual-1) i love watching golden state play and 2) a few hours to fill the vacuum left by my once avid interest in our, ummm...domestic affairs shall we say.
i'll tell ya though, college basketball ain't far behind. i'm not sure the refs know themselves what kind of standards to set re: the amount of physicality to allow. it changes drastically however, not just between teams of refs, but also within games themselves from 1st half to 2nd and then sometimes again in the waning minutes. do we blow the whistle in the last few seconds? or do we let it play out and not play a role in deciding thegame? the good teams are well aware of this and really push the refs to the limit; to call or not to call. who wants to put the dude on the line with no time remaining and a chance to win the game...against kentucky or duke heYn'a?
careful there forgetful, i said DAMN NEAR 50 years, just remember that...maybe closer to 48 or 49 ::) cheezus that sounds like what my gramps used to say
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did anyone else catch this little anecdote friday night from jeff van gundy during the cavs-warriors game? he said that al cowlings told pat riley, a friend of his, that the reason he was driving so slowly in the infamous bronco chase was that oj wanted to hear the end of the knicks-rockets game 5 finals game(1994) as opposed to oj threatening to kill himself. and all this while i was thinking they were really doing some 5-0 for nicole's real killer ::)
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/06/11/nba-commentator-tells-wild-story-about-oj-simpson-slow-speed-police-chase.html?intcmp=trending
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Not even close. No one who only plays 50% of the game is ever the best player on the floor.
And furthermore, Lebron was clearly better in game 3. forgetful is delusional.
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And furthermore, Lebron was clearly better in game 3. forgetful is delusional.
Game 3 was over in the first period when Kyrie went off for 16 points. He payed 37 minutes to James 40.
21 of Lebrons points came in garbage time when the game was already over. He only scored 11 in the first half.
In Game 4 Irving and Curry were by far the best two players not the floor. No one else was even remotely close. I give Irving the nod, because so many of Curry's stats (points) come in garbage time from the FT line. Irving played 43 minutes.
Irving is often guarding Curry, and doing a hell of a job. Lebron is playing "help" defense. The announcers even called him out for not switching onto Green, and instead making the smaller Irving guard him.
What game were your watching where Irving only played 50% of the game.
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Irving had the ball plenty and sucked in the fourth quarter. During an 8 minute stretch when it was a tie game to when they went down 10, he went 2/8. Lebron wasn't much better at 1/3.
11:33 Kevin Love makes 8-foot two point shot (Kyrie Irving assists) 79 - 79
11:02 LeBron James makes driving layup 79 - 81
10:22 Kyrie Irving misses driving layup 81 - 81
10:21 LeBron James makes dunk 81 - 83
9:41 Andre Iguodala blocks LeBron James 's 3-foot jumper 84 - 83
9:11 LeBron James misses 25-foot three point jumper 84 - 83
8:12 Kyrie Irving misses 5-foot jumper 88 - 83
7:30 Kyrie Irving makes free throw 1 of 2 88 - 84
7:30 Kyrie Irving misses free throw 2 of 2 88 - 84
7:05 Kyrie Irving misses 26-foot three point jumper 88 - 84
6:41 Kevin Love misses 26-foot three point jumper 90 - 84
6:13 Kyrie Irving misses 3-foot jumper 90 - 84
5:13 Klay Thompson blocks Kyrie Irving's layup 93 - 84
4:43 LeBron James misses 25-foot three point jumper 93 - 84
3:44 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup 93 - 86
3:02 Kyrie Irving misses three point jumper 96 - 86
2:26 Kyrie Irving misses driving layup 96 - 86
2:08 Kyrie Irving makes two point shot (LeBron James assists) 96 - 88
1:12 LeBron James makes free throw 1 of 2 96 - 89
1:12 LeBron James misses free throw 2 of 2 96 - 89
0:45 LeBron James makes driving layup 98 - 91
0:31 Kyrie Irving makes driving layup 100 - 93
0:23 LeBron James makes driving layup 102 - 95
0:14 LeBron James makes driving dunk 104 - 97
Irving: 3/9; 2/2 FT
James: 4/7 (2/5 outside of garbage time); 1/2 FT
Love: 1/2
Yeah but it's all Lebron's fault.
There is a difference between taking shots and dominating the ball.
My point is Lebron started to insist on bringing the ball up. When he does that, it is pure isolation play. They do not get into an offense. Everything stagnates. (which is what you said was the problem).
The PG (Irving) needs to bring the ball up. When he does, they get into the offense and the game flows better.
Also, Irving is young and arrogant. When Lebron starts to try to dominate the ball, and things aren't working, all of them get into 1 on 1 mode of, I'm not going to share the ball because I'll never get it back.
Lebron is the star veteran. Slightly unfair, but he needs to lead and be the role model. He bears more responsibility.
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I think it's official forgetful.
You have a thing against Lebron and it is completely clouding your logic.
I'm done.
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I think it's official forgetful.
You have a thing against Lebron and it is completely clouding your logic.
I'm done.
Can you provide some logic to justify Lebron being better in game 3 and 4; and/or logic to justify Lebron bring the ball up not stagnating the offense, beside Lebron is the greatest and you not believing it.
I provided some logic.
I also admit bias against Lebron, you have not admitted a bias towards him not ever having fault.
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Can you provide some logic to justify Lebron being better in game 3 and 4; and/or logic to justify Lebron bring the ball up not stagnating the offense, beside Lebron is the greatest and you not believing it.
I provided some logic.
I also admit bias against Lebron, you have not admitted a bias towards him not ever having fault.
I said he was at fault earlier in the topic. I hardly claim he is perfect but he is hardly what ills the Cavs.
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I said he was at fault earlier in the topic. I hardly claim he is perfect but he is hardly what ills the Cavs.
I must of missed it. But lets be clear. I'm not saying it was all Lebron's fault. He is the veteran star though, he needs to lead.
I also think he needs to learn to play off the ball. The Cavs would be far better (but really need a Jason Kidd/John Stockton/Nash type of pass first PG).
Lebron and Irving are both stars, but do not work well together.
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What I'm really commenting on is the absurd moving screens (often just pushing a guy with two hands), the offensive fouls (shoving off with the forearm), and off the ball fouls (e.g. grabbing, holding, pushing a cutter) in todays game.
I am not down with your conspiracies or your obvious LeBron hate, but I agree ENTIRELY with this.
It's not just the playoffs, either. The NBA totally allows moving screens now. And, as you say, it's not just a little hip check. These guys clear out the defensive player, drive them backward with both hands. Draymond Green does this pretty much every time. I watch a lot of Hornets games, and Al Jefferson sets every screen by pushing out with both arms.
What's really funny is when, once every two or three games, an offensive foul is called. The player can't freakin' believe it. And who can blame him? He's done the clear-out 100 times but then gets called for doing the exact same thing the 101st time.
It would be kind of OK if it were just in the NBA, but it has filtered down to college and even high school. Although it's worse and more egregious than ever, it isn't a brand new phenomenon, either. James Augustine could have gotten called for about 200 moving screens the year the Illini went to the title game.
I ref younger kids (mostly 9-13 year olds) and I call the moving screens every single time. The kids never think they do it and neither do their coaches ... because they watch too much NBA and college ball!
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Will Daymond be suspended? Should he be suspended?
http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/16138394/if-draymond-green-suspended-wins-cavs-warriors-game-5-2016-nba-finals
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Will Daymond be suspended? Should he be suspended?
http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/16138394/if-draymond-green-suspended-wins-cavs-warriors-game-5-2016-nba-finals
No. No.
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No. No.
+2
I can't read the insider story, but I love how many of the clips I've seen start after LeBron throws Green to the ground with his left arm. The play should have been whistled dead two or three seconds before this ever happened.
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The Cavs offense at the end reverted back to the "spread the floor and go one-on-one" crap that hasn't worked for them all series. I don't know if they do that because they are gassed, or because they actually think that's going to work despite the fact that it really hasn't.
I was driving my wife crazy yelling at the TV about this. How can a bunch of highly paid professional athletes revert to something that so clearly does not work? At all.
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I am not down with your conspiracies or your obvious LeBron hate, but I agree ENTIRELY with this.
It's not just the playoffs, either. The NBA totally allows moving screens now. And, as you say, it's not just a little hip check. These guys clear out the defensive player, drive them backward with both hands. Draymond Green does this pretty much every time. I watch a lot of Hornets games, and Al Jefferson sets every screen by pushing out with both arms.
What's really funny is when, once every two or three games, an offensive foul is called. The player can't freakin' believe it. And who can blame him? He's done the clear-out 100 times but then gets called for doing the exact same thing the 101st time.
It would be kind of OK if it were just in the NBA, but it has filtered down to college and even high school. Although it's worse and more egregious than ever, it isn't a brand new phenomenon, either. James Augustine could have gotten called for about 200 moving screens the year the Illini went to the title game.
I ref younger kids (mostly 9-13 year olds) and I call the moving screens every single time. The kids never think they do it and neither do their coaches ... because they watch too much NBA and college ball!
a big big THANK YOU for also noting the "aggressive" play and non-calls. accordingly, you should just stop watching and go knit some mittens or something. what's with the players taking 3 steps as they come forward to receive a pass? i'v seen it regularly in the NBA and now college. i haven't seen enough H.S. hoops recently to state the same. and, so much for giving a guy inbounding the ball during a press 3 feet. my point is, if it's the rule, call it. just as they will SOMETIMES, but rarely make the call when the player inbounding the ball after a made basket steps over the line...o.k. back to my matching doile project
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Well, the NBA does want to extend this thing out...
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Well, the NBA does want to extend this thing out...
I find it hard for anyone to say that the NBA doesn't rig things in light of this. There was zero reason for Green to be given a flagrant and suspended for this game.
Even if they were to upgrade it, why not a technical...because only a flagrant gets him suspended.
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Well, the NBA does want to extend this thing out...
Selfishly, I hope this fame series ends tomorrow. Work has been just awful with the NBA playoffs. I never knew there were so many people from Northern California that moved to Chicago this past year. ::)
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No. No.
@sportscenter. BREAKING: Draymond Green has been assessed Flagrant Foul 1 for actions in Game 4 & will be suspended for Game 5.
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How much does this matter?
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@sportscenter. BREAKING: Draymond Green has been assessed Flagrant Foul 1 for actions in Game 4 & will be suspended for Game 5.
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How much does this matter?
For the NBA? A lot. It gives them hope that the Cavs can win tomorrow, then go home and they could win there. Then the NBA gets their 7 game Finals instead of the 5 it would be.
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I find it hard for anyone to say that the NBA doesn't rig things in light of this. There was zero reason for Green to be given a flagrant and suspended for this game.
Even if they were to upgrade it, why not a technical...because only a flagrant gets him suspended.
Maybe he should stop hitting players in the nuts.
Or it's a conspiracy.
Whatever.
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Maybe he should stop hitting players in the nuts.
Or it's a conspiracy.
Whatever.
He didn't hit a player in the nuts. He got pushed to the ground, stepped over, and then did essentially what every Cavs player does on every offensive rebound opportunity they have.
Delly hits Iggy in the nuts and that's just a common foul. Draymond stands up while LeBron is walking over him after shoving him to the ground and Draymond gets a flagrant foul for "hitting him in the nuts" (which he didn't). Makes sense.
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He didn't hit a player in the nuts. He got pushed to the ground, stepped over, and then did essentially what every Cavs player does on every offensive rebound opportunity they have.
Delly hits Iggy in the nuts and that's just a common foul. Draymond stands up while LeBron is walking over him after shoving him to the ground and Draymond gets a flagrant foul for "hitting him in the nuts" (which he didn't). Makes sense.
He hit him in the nuts.
James rightfully gets a technical for stepping over him. Green responds by hitting him in the groin. Pretty obvious to those without bias.
http://thebiglead.com/2016/06/11/draymond-green-lebron-james-punch-groin/
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He didn't get suspended for this specific act to Bron's penis and balls, but rather because this was 4th flagrant foul in 3 weeks, and thus the appropriate and league/union mandated punishment is a 1 game suspension.
The guy who is repeatedly attacts other players penis and balls is a hero, while the dude who fills up the scoresheet night in and night out, a top 10 of all NBA talent, zero personal issues, good dad and husband, is a clown and overrated to a certain subset of this board. Just comical.
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i've watched that replay every which way and i just do not see green hitting lebron in the stones. if anything lebron should have been nailed with a flagrantl-end of story. if they are trying to refer to green bumping into lebrons stuff on his way to get up, that was soooo incidental for God's sake.
for examples of one getting hit in their nether regions, replay dellevedova's crank on iguodala's boys-that was nasty. green's? bad bad call. i do admit green wears everything on his sleeves and he needs to do a little more self control. i think if you need to watch a replay dozens of times in super slo-mo from 15 different angles to see if(and he did not) he brushed up against lebrons junk is rediculous
NBA's true colors are showing
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He didn't get suspended for this specific act to Bron's penis and balls, but rather because this was 4th flagrant foul in 3 weeks, and thus the appropriate and league/union mandated punishment is a 1 game suspension.
The guy who is repeatedly attacts other players penis and balls is a hero, while the dude who fills up the scoresheet night in and night out, a top 10 of all NBA talent, zero personal issues, good dad and husband, is a clown and overrated to a certain subset of this board. Just comical.
Lol. The bolded is beyond false. More like "The guy who has a great PR group around him" and we may agree. He is definitely a clown. I think you have maybe 1 person on Scoop calling him overrated?
Draymond Green stood up while LeBron was intentionally stepping over him so that's "hitting him in the balls." New to me, but I think I got it. I'll keep that one in mind.
Again, where is the flagrant 1 for Delly hitting Iggy's "penis and balls?" Guessing we'll avoid that question again. Comical.
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i've watched that replay every which way and i just do not see green hitting lebron in the stones. if anything lebron should have been nailed with a flagrantl-end of story. if they are trying to refer to green bumping into lebrons stuff on his way to get up, that was soooo incidental for God's sake.
for examples of one getting hit in their nether regions, replay dellevedova's crank on iguodala's boys-that was nasty. green's? bad bad call. i do admit green wears everything on his sleeves and he needs to do a little more self control. i think if you need to watch a replay dozens of times in super slo-mo from 15 different angles to see if(and he did not) he brushed up against lebrons junk is rediculous
NBA's true colors are showing
Exactly. Nailed it. If there is ANYTHING CLOSE to a flagrant foul on the play (there isn't) it's LeBron throwing Green down.
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He hit him in the nuts.
James rightfully gets a technical for stepping over him. Green responds by hitting him in the groin. Pretty obvious to those without bias.
http://thebiglead.com/2016/06/11/draymond-green-lebron-james-punch-groin/
Yep, Watched the video. I would argue that anyone without bias says he didn't hit him in the nuts. He tries to push him away...as is a natural instinct when someone is tea-bagging you. If its a technical for stepping over him, it is at most a technical for pushing him away...not a flagrant.
The only reason to call a flagrant there is if the goal it to suspend Green.
And as Wade says. If it is a flagrant for what Green did, then it was a flagrant for Delly way more clearly hitting Iggy in the nuts.
If you want to find a historical play. Pippen dunking over Ewing. Pippen intentionally steps over Ewing. Ewing punches him in the nuts and ass.
Pippen assesed a technical. Ewing nothing.
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Lol. The bolded is beyond false. More like "The guy who has a great PR group around him" and we may agree. He is definitely a clown. I think you have maybe 1 person on Scoop calling him overrated?
Draymond Green stood up while LeBron was intentionally stepping over him so that's "hitting him in the balls." New to me, but I think I got it. I'll keep that one in mind.
Again, where is the flagrant 1 for Delly hitting Iggy's "penis and balls?" Guessing we'll avoid that question again. Comical.
And even I have made it clear that by over-rated I mean not top 5 all time, but more in the 10-15 range.
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Lol. The bolded is beyond false. More like "The guy who has a great PR group around him" and we may agree. He is definitely a clown. I think you have maybe 1 person on Scoop calling him overrated?
Draymond Green stood up while LeBron was intentionally stepping over him so that's "hitting him in the balls." New to me, but I think I got it. I'll keep that one in mind.
Again, where is the flagrant 1 for Delly hitting Iggy's "penis and balls?" Guessing we'll avoid that question again. Comical.
If you don't see DG giving an extra flale to his arm as LBJ stepped over him, I honestly don't know what to say.
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/draymond-green-hit-lebron-james-in-the-nuts.gif?w=1000)
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If you don't see DG giving an extra flale to his arm as LBJ stepped over him, I honestly don't know what to say.
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/draymond-green-hit-lebron-james-in-the-nuts.gif?w=1000)
But again, I guess Delly didn't hit Iggy's nuts...
Lol.
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Yep, Watched the video. I would argue that anyone without bias says he didn't hit him in the nuts. He tries to push him away...as is a natural instinct when someone is tea-bagging you. If its a technical for stepping over him, it is at most a technical for pushing him away...not a flagrant.
The only reason to call a flagrant there is if the goal it to suspend Green.
He hit him in the nuts.
You and wades are reaching Nersian levels of ignorance on this topic.
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If you don't see DG giving an extra flale to his arm as LBJ stepped over him, I honestly don't know what to say.
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/draymond-green-hit-lebron-james-in-the-nuts.gif?w=1000)
ok, best replay i've seen. the "extra flail" however, is subjective at best. i don't think green knew he was going to tickle the tube steak. it was all reactionary and emotional, but given green's reputation, no benefit of the doubt is given.
dellevedova on the other hand has been voted NBA's dirtiest player by his peers and he get's the benefit of the doubt?
http://www.si.com/nba/2016/01/17/cleveland-cavaliers-matthew-dellavedova-voted-dirtiest-player
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If you don't see DG giving an extra flale to his arm as LBJ stepped over him, I honestly don't know what to say.
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/draymond-green-hit-lebron-james-in-the-nuts.gif?w=1000)
He hit him in the nuts.
You and wades are reaching Nersian levels of ignorance on this topic.
Hitting someone in the nuts:
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/draymond-green-hit-lebron-james-in-the-nuts.gif?w=1000)
Not hitting someone in the nuts:
https://twitter.com/bballforeverfb/status/738564614225600513
Got it.
I'm just ignorant.
;D
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But again, I guess Delly didn't hit Iggy's nuts...
Lol.
Effin fine, Dell hit him square in the nuts, and the NBA should have assessed him a flagrant. Now back to argument at hand. Good lord, like arguing with 8 year old.
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Effin fine, Dell hit him square in the nuts, and the NBA should have assessed him a flagrant. Now back to argument at hand. Good lord, like arguing with 8 year old.
BUT CAN'T YOU SEE!!???!!! IT'S ALL PART OF THE CONSPIRACY!!!!!
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Effin fine, Dell hit him square in the nuts, and the NBA should have assessed him a flagrant. Now back to argument at hand. Good lord, like arguing with 8 year old.
Right, it is like arguing with an 8 year old. When someone brings up the fact that the NBA completely ignored a square hit to the balls just 2 games prior to this I don't understand for the life of me how you can assess a flagrant foul to Draymond Green for what he did. It's beyond absurd. You, the NBA, and 8 year olds all tried to ignore it until you finally got fed up with someone bringing up the hypocrisy. Sorry you don't like it. Unfortunately the NBA will stand strong and just continue to ignore the clear inconsistency here.
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BUT CAN'T YOU SEE!!???!!! IT'S ALL PART OF THE CONSPIRACY!!!!!
I see you will continue to ignore it, though. You aren't ignorant like me.
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I see you will continue to ignore it, though. You aren't ignorant like me.
MY EYES HAVE BEEN OPENED!!! MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE!!!!
DAVID STERN IS A FREEMASON!!!!!
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MY EYES HAVE BEEN OPENED!!! MY ENTIRE LIFE IS A LIE!!!!
DAVID STERN IS A FREEMASON!!!!!
Hot takes from Steven A everyone.
Like arguing with an 8 year old.
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Hot takes from Steven A everyone.
Like arguing with an 8 year old.
DID YOU KNOW THAT ADAM SILVER ONCE SNORTED COCAINE AND DAN GILBERT HAS IT ON VIDEO???
IT'S TRUE!!!!!!
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DID YOU KNOW THAT ADAM SILVER ONCE SNORTED COCAINE AND DAN GILBERT HAS IT ON VIDEO???
IT'S TRUE!!!!!!
Keep it going, you're on a roll kid.
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Hitting someone in the nuts:
(https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/draymond-green-hit-lebron-james-in-the-nuts.gif?w=1000)
Not hitting someone in the nuts:
https://twitter.com/bballforeverfb/status/738564614225600513
Got it.
I'm just ignorant.
;D
note the difference in the "victims" reactions. lebron didn't flinch. iggy reacted like most everyone(guys) when they take one for the team. either lebron's are balls of steel or draymond missed
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Green's motion is actually pretty normal for a person getting up quickly from a seated position. Because of momentum and retaining balance your off hand usually flails out.
Regardless, the contact was minimal and initiated by Lebron. Should have been a flagrant on Lebron for the shove and step over (unnecessary contact) and also a technical for the subsequent scuffle.
Green should have gotten a technical for the subsequent scuffle. The flagrant on Green is absurdly ridiculous.
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I think if he really intended to hit him in the nuts, he wouldn't have immediately pushed at him once he got up. Either way, its funny that Lebron finally lashing out and getting chippy, as happened multiple times in the 3rd and 4th quarter, led to a net benefit for the Cavs.
He's also a great dad to his illegitimate child in Miami.
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Green's motion is actually pretty normal for a person getting up quickly from a seated position. Because of momentum and retaining balance your off hand usually flails out.
Regardless, the contact was minimal and initiated by Lebron. Should have been a flagrant on Lebron for the shove and step over (unnecessary contact) and also a technical for the subsequent scuffle.
Green should have gotten a technical for the subsequent scuffle. The flagrant on Green is absurdly ridiculous.
Cool, so why only does right arm flail like a fish that just got caught, while his left stays as is.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, and yes I agree that Delly should have been called, and agree that refs are biased toward superstars, including LBJ. But cmon, DG was cleared po'ed that LBJ tried but failed horribly to punk him, and swung his arm and hit his man parts, that's flagrant. Not much more to add.
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I think if he really intended to hit him in the nuts, he wouldn't have immediately pushed at him once he got up. Either way, its funny that Lebron finally lashing out and getting chippy, as happened multiple times in the 3rd and 4th quarter, led to a net benefit for the Cavs.
He's also a great dad to his illegitimate child in Miami.
Exactly. If by, "A great husband and father," he meant he's willing to pay for the kids that he doesn't live with year round and pay their mothers that he is not a husband to to keep quiet then yes, a great father and husband he is.
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Cool, so why only does right arm flail like a fish that just got caught, while his left stays as is.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, and yes I agree that Delly should have been called, and agree that refs are biased toward superstars, including LBJ. But cmon, DG was cleared po'ed that LBJ tried but failed horribly to punk him, and swung his arm and hit his man parts, that's flagrant. Not much more to add.
He pushed up with his left hand. Body mechanics says the right has to move outward away from the body to maintain balance. Had he pushed up with his right hand it would have been his left that flailed.
Also, there is a large body up and to his right. The logical thing is to use your off hand to brace yourself from getting hit in the head/body and knocked back to the ground. So his right hand instinctively comes off the floor first and then has to move outward away from the body to maintain balance.
Now he did try to hit him, but after he got up and he missed.
Showed the video to my wife, who doesn't know who Green is and has zero opinion of Lebron. Her first comment that it is pretty weak to give a flagrant when he missed him.
I then had to walk her through the other "flail". She laughed, said that was a natural motion and no way is it a flagrant foul.
She is as unbiased as it gets.
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Cool, so why only does right arm flail like a fish that just got caught, while his left stays as is.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, and yes I agree that Delly should have been called, and agree that refs are biased toward superstars, including LBJ. But cmon, DG was cleared po'ed that LBJ tried but failed horribly to punk him, and swung his arm and hit his man parts, that's flagrant. Not much more to add.
Because he just used his left arm to help him get up, so it was at the ground. Honestly, the guy is looking to his left and towards the ground. LeBron is to his right and above him. Yes, he flailed his arm in an attempt to hit LeBron for throwing him to the ground and stepping over him. But to flagrantly hit the guy in the balls you typically don't see someone looking the opposite direction and still somehow hitting his target (with an open hand, and hitting his balls with his forearm) through the legs. Personally if I really wanted to hit a guy in the balls on the basketball court, I wouldn't be thinking, "I'm going to try to do it while I'm on the ground behind him and I'm going to do it with my forearm."
At any rate, let's say Draymond came out and straight up said, "My intention was to punch LeBron's balls as hard as I could." Even if that was the case, the inconsistency of Delly having a closed fisted punch right into Iggy's balls and receiving a common foul after a review and Green's maybe tapping LeBron's sack with like an inch below the inside of his elbow and getting a flagrant foul called...after an on court review that still left it simply at a double foul for the ensuing scuffle, is beyond ridiculous.
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As for consistency. Look at the Flagrant 1 called on Green for pushing Beasley.
Then look at Lebron shoving Green to the ground...and then on the rebound shoving him to the ground again.
Very very similar plays. There wasn't even a whistle for the first push.
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I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME READING, AND I AM PRETTY SURE THE MOON LANDINGS WERE STAGED!!!! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT????
IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!!!
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I HAVE BEEN DOING SOME READING, AND I AM PRETTY SURE THE MOON LANDINGS WERE STAGED!!!! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT????
IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!!!!
Sultan's been getting extra defensive lately. Who knew it'd be LeBron that'd put him over the top?
Keep going. This is great.
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Sultan's been getting extra defensive lately. Who knew it'd be LeBron that'd put him over the top?
Keep going. This is great.
Hardly defensive. I just find it party humorous, and partly pathetic, that people can view that video in real time and not think it was intentional. And then of course these same people have to dip into the sad, sad "NBA is a conspiracy" line to justify it...
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Hardly defensive. I just find it party humorous, and partly pathetic, that people can view that video in real time and not think it was intentional. And then of course these same people have to dip into the sad, sad "NBA is a conspiracy" line to justify it...
Incredibly defensive.
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I have nothing to be defensive about since I'm not the one making stuff up. But whatever makes you feel better about ignoring reality...
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I have nothing to be defensive about since I'm not the one making stuff up. But whatever makes you feel better about ignoring reality...
Says the guy who continues to ignore the fact that Delly closed fisted punched Iggy square in the nuts and was assessed a common foul.
You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to think the NBA *gasp* got something wrong. If any touching of the groin area is a flagrant foul then it's pretty clear that Delly flagrantly fouled Iggy, in which case they got that wrong. If a groin touch isn't an automatic flagrant that's fine, but Delly's was far more severe than Draymond's. So either way, the NBA got at least one of the 2 situations wrong, if not both.
If not taking the NBA as infallible is being a conspiracy theorist, then I'm all in on the conspiracies.
Sorry to interrupt. Give me more. 9/11 an inside job?
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I am not ignoring the Delladova foul. The NBA got it wrong.
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Exactly. Nailed it. If there is ANYTHING CLOSE to a flagrant foul on the play (there isn't) it's LeBron throwing Green down.
Yeah, it's pretty interesting that most people (including the NBA) are ignoring the reason Green was on the ground in the first place.
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Yeah, it's pretty interesting that most people (including the NBA) are ignoring the reason Green was on the ground in the first place.
They aren't. Lebron was assessed a technical today.
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They aren't. Lebron was assessed a technical today.
For stepping over Green. They did nothing about the fact that he threw him to the ground in the first place.
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For stepping over Green. They did nothing about the fact that he threw him to the ground in the first place.
I believe they viewed the altercation as a whole and didn't break it down between the throwdown and the step over.
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I believe they viewed the altercation as a whole and didn't break it down between the throwdown and the step over.
Throwing a guy to the ground should be a flagrant, not a T.
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Throwing a guy to the ground should be a flagrant, not a T.
Conspiracies don't work that way.
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Throwing a guy to the ground should be a flagrant, not a T.
Given the fact that Green was given repeated slaps on the wrist for repeatedly kicking opponents in the groin and elsewhere, I would say LeBron's penalty was about right.
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Conspiracies don't work that way.
When the fuçk did I say anything about a conspiracy? It was a bad call - how in the he!! do you get a conspiracy out of that?
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I believe they viewed the altercation as a whole and didn't break it down between the throwdown and the step over.
Then why wasn't Green's situation looked at as a whole and him assigned a technical also?
As for the looking at it as a whole. That means Lebron was allowed to commit a flagrant foul, follow it up with committing a technical. Then throw Green down to the ground again (on the rebound) and try to start a fight. All that warrants a single technical foul. No flagrants or anything else.
Green, while getting up has his forearm get near Lebron's junk as Lebron tea bags him, and he gets a flagrant.
Yet you don't see anything disproportionately odd about this?
At the very least, the double foul part of the play should have been upgraded to a flagrant for Lebron, in addition to him being assessed a technical.
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Then why wasn't Green's situation looked at as a whole and him assigned a technical also?
As for the looking at it as a whole. That means Lebron was allowed to commit a flagrant foul, follow it up with committing a technical. Then throw Green down to the ground again (on the rebound) and try to start a fight. All that warrants a single technical foul. No flagrants or anything else.
Green, while getting up has his forearm get near Lebron's junk as Lebron tea bags him, and he gets a flagrant.
Yet you don't see anything disproportionately odd about this?
No. I don't think Lebron committed a flagrant foul. Green punched.
Very simple IMO.
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No. I don't think Lebron committed a flagrant foul. Green punched.
Very simple IMO.
As I mentioned earlier, Green's first flagrant in the playoffs was nearly identical to what Lebron did. So either they are being inconsistent, or flat out got it wrong the first time with Green.
And Green did not punch. There is no part whatsoever in the video showing Green punching anyone or anything.
One last question. Do you honestly believe if this was flipped they would have given Lebron a flagrant and let him be suspended for game 5?
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No. I don't think Lebron committed a flagrant foul. Green punched.
Very simple IMO.
Draymond grew a fist out of his upper forearm?! Mad scientists growing body parts where they don't belong must be part of this conspiracy now too.
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Thank God we have someone to pick up the petty and antagonistic torch in this post-Chicos Scoop world.
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Then why wasn't Green's situation looked at as a whole and him assigned a technical also?
As for the looking at it as a whole. That means Lebron was allowed to commit a flagrant foul, follow it up with committing a technical. Then throw Green down to the ground again (on the rebound) and try to start a fight. All that warrants a single technical foul. No flagrants or anything else.
Green, while getting up has his forearm get near Lebron's junk as Lebron tea bags him, and he gets a flagrant.
Wow. You really made up a lot of stuff here.
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Wow. You really made up a lot of stuff here.
Did Lebron or did Lebron not shove Green to the ground. (If we go by the altercation between Green and Beasley in the playoffs).
Did Lebron or did Lebron not then tea-bag Green for which he was assigned a technical.
Did Lebron and or did Lebron not tangle up with Green again on the rebound, where Lebron shoves Green to the ground again. (This one is almost identical to the Green Beasley flagrant).
My point is if all of that is viewed as a whole and only amounts to a technical. Then the Green situation could have and should have been viewed in an analogous light and Green at most assigned a technical. Not the flagrant that gets him suspended.
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Did Lebron or did Lebron not shove Green to the ground. (If we go by the altercation between Green and Beasley in the playoffs).
Did Lebron or did Lebron not then tea-bag Green for which he was assigned a technical.
Did Lebron and or did Lebron not tangle up with Green again on the rebound, where Lebron shoves Green to the ground again. (This one is almost identical to the Green Beasley flagrant).
My point is if all of that is viewed as a whole and only amounts to a technical. Then the Green situation could have and should have been viewed in an analogous light and Green at most assigned a technical. Not the flagrant that gets him suspended.
this is exactly the way i see it and i really don't care who wins the NBA championship. i'm just leaning GS b/c they are exciting as hell to watch. the scientific method performed by forgetful using his wife as a control(unbiased)observation was perfect. there is no conspiracy, it's all right out in the open. i just think everyone's brain works differently. what strikes me odd is that if lebron truly got "stoned" he didn't flinch one bit. that is not normal. any of you guys have experienced this before. sometimes even the slightest incidental bump can cause you to at least pause for a moment. lebron...nothing.
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Draymond grew a fist out of his upper forearm?! Mad scientists growing body parts where they don't belong must be part of this conspiracy now too.
He swung his forearm into his nuts. Very obvious. Repeat offender.
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As I mentioned earlier, Green's first flagrant in the playoffs was nearly identical to what Lebron did. So either they are being inconsistent, or flat out got it wrong the first time with Green.
It wasn't "nearly identical."
One last question. Do you honestly believe if this was flipped they would have given Lebron a flagrant and let him be suspended for game 5?
Yes. But Lebron isn't that stupid to get into that situation in the first place.
Really Green has no one to blame but himself here.
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Thank God we have someone to pick up the petty and antagonistic torch in this post-Chicos Scoop world.
I've been tied up in a new job....Chicos is gone again, what did he do this time?
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I've been tied up in a new job....Chicos is gone again, what did he do this time?
Aside from being a very entertaining thread to read that nugget was news to me as well. My guess would be the 'Ali' thread was the finale.
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Heard something today on the radio that I though was fascinating. Every NBA champion since the mid 50s has had at least one top five draft pick on the roster. Now in some cases that player was a role player (Lamar Odom, Bobby Jones), but most of them were the stars.
GSW has Andrew Bogut.
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Foul
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Watch what they let Cleveland get away with in regards to Curry. No player is held, pushed, hit more than him off the ball and nothing called...
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Watch what they let Cleveland get away with in regards to Curry. No player is held, pushed, hit more than him off the ball and nothing called...
Yet he isn't a whiny little b&^tch about it like the princess.
Now that Chicos is gone, are you and Sultan the new Chicos and Lenny. Need to get a room fellas.
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Now that Chicos is gone, are you and Sultan the new Chicos and Lenny. Need to get a room fellas.
I'm sorry Real Chili. The second line was absolutely unnecessary. It has been removed.
On a different note. Van Gundy is about as likeable as a spike studded thong.
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Thompson got clobbered on that play
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I'm done because I have come to the conclusion that forgetful has no clue what he is talking about.
Damn fun game so far.
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I'm done because I have come to the conclusion that forgetful has no clue what he is talking about.
Damn fun game so far.
Now that is uncalled for. I disagree with you, and have supported my assertions with evidence, but have never insulted your opinion or your knowledge.
I'm completely dropping this discussion also, as I find it to be unproductive and distracting.
As I said to RC83. I apologize for the initial princess comment that could be viewed as antagonistic.
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nm
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Klay is in the zone.
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Think this gane will get to 100?????
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Nice finish
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Nice bun dude.
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Think this gane will get to 100?????
Thinkin' I'll take the over...
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Dude with the bun reminds me of Marcia Brady. A non traditional Marcia Brady.
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Great, great 1st half.
Lebron and Klay playing all-world.
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They're advertising an animated movie called "Sausage Party"? Seriously?
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They're advertising an animated movie called "Sausage Party"? Seriously?
I did a double take.
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Great, great 1st half.
Lebron and Klay playing all-world.
Yep, just amazing.
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If only Lebron wasn't getting all the calls :)
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If only Lebron wasn't getting all the calls :)
He gets the easy calls.
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1. What did I miss? What happened to Chicos?
2. I think it's funny that there was a Twitter poll about Draymond's intent on the play and the results were like 51/49% that he intended to do it, and each side is sure that they are right. It's like politics.
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Almost half the points by two guys.
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My god - a missed 3?!?
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Ouch.
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Why didn't the Warriors stop sooner when Bugut went down?
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Hyper Extension?
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Like the Wade-Gervin commercial
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Hyper Extension?
That had to hurt...
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Warriors are about as big as when we had Hayward at center....
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Love is a turd tonight.
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Irving is en fuego.
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Irving again by far the best player on the floor.
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Irving again by far the best player on the floor.
Best player on the court, yes. By far, that's a stretch.
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Best player on the court, yes. By far, that's a stretch.
Both Lebron and Klay are playing all world. But Irving (89% eFG% and 41 points) is all Universe.
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Curry missing shots he usually hits.
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Easy shots
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Curry missing shots he usually hits.
After the 7 game series, in OKC and another long series here, where the officials let the opponents get away with grabbing holding and knocking Curry down without fouls called and I think they've managed to take him out of his game mentally and physically.
Fortunately for GSW, Klay has been ridiculous.
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Both Lebron and Klay are playing all world. But Irving (89% eFG% and 41 points) is all Universe.
And what about Lebron's stats this game make him not "all universe" besides your absolute distain for the man?
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And what about Lebron's stats this game make him not "all universe" besides your absolute distain for the man?
Lebron and Klay are comparable in this game. Nod goes to Lebron due to complete game. In any other game and they would be the only ones raved about.
Irving, though, is on a different level. Its quite simple.
If you need more. Efficiency.
Irving: eFG% 81%
Klay: eFG% 70%
Lebron: eFG% 60%
81% is ridiculously absurd.
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Don't forget Lebron's 16 boards, 3 steals, 3 blocks. Best player in this game could go either way in my mind.
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Lebron and Klay are comparable in this game. Nod goes to Lebron due to complete game. In any other game and they would be the only ones raved about.
Irving, though, is on a different level. Its quite simple.
If you need more. Efficiency.
Irving: eFG% 81%
Klay: eFG% 70%
Lebron: eFG% 60%
81% is ridiculously absurd.
So one stat. Never mind that Lebron had or tied for game high in points, rebonds, assists, steals, and blocks.
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Don't forget Lebron's 16 boards, 3 steals, 3 blocks. Best player in this game could go either way in my mind.
Yep. Toss up. He was the key inside for Cleveland with Love MIA.
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So one stat. Never mind that Lebron had or tied for game high in points, rebonds, assists, steals, and blocks.
Hence me saying he had an all world game. In what planet does that detract from an unbelievable performance.
The announcers even said he was the best tonight and commented that if the series ended tonight Irving would be the MVP.
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Hence me saying he had an all world game. In what planet does that detract from an unbelievable performance.
On planet forgetful where his game was "by far" not as good as Irving's.
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On planet forgetful where his game was "by far" not as good as Irving's.
At the time I said "by far", Irving was shooting an eFG% of 90% to Lebrons 60% and outscoring him.
Irving is primarily a jump shooter and creates his own shot. If you don't understand how absurd of a difference those two eFG% are, and how hard that is to achieve for a jump shooter, I'm sorry.
Irving drifted back to the pack a bit at the end, but was still the clear best player as highlighted by the announcers.
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The announcers even said he was the best tonight and commented that if the series ended tonight Irving would be the MVP.
They said that about Lebron. Van Gundy said it would be deserved but wouldn't happen since they didn't do it last year when he was even better.
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Irving was super efficient tonight on offense. Lebron may not have been as efficient but dominated everything else tonight. They were both all universe. To say otherwise is just idiotic.
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They said that about Lebron. Van Gundy said it would be deserved but wouldn't happen since they didn't do it last year when he was even better.
Quit messing up the narrative!
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At the time I said "by far", Irving was shooting an eFG% of 90% to Lebrons 60% and outscoring him.
Irving is primarily a jump shooter and creates his own shot. If you don't understand how absurd of a difference those two eFG% are, and how hard that is to achieve for a jump shooter, I'm sorry.
Irving drifted back to the pack a bit at the end, but was still the clear best player as highlighted by the announcers.
Ners? Ners?
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That game shows you how important Green is to them. Iggy was bad last night. No one else could guard James. Get too close and he would drive right past them. Sag off and he would hit the mid range.
James and Irving did a great job of taking over for each other when the other was tiring. Both had stretches where they simply couldn't be stopped.
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That game shows you how important Green is to them. Iggy was bad last night. No one else could guard James. Get too close and he would drive right past them. Sag off and he would hit the mid range.
Agreed.
And the difference showed even more after Bogut went down. While he was in, he could help out when James drove past his defender. When he went down, James had a free path to the hoop.
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Agreed.
And the difference showed even more after Bogut went down. While he was in, he could help out when James drove past his defender. When he went down, James had a free path to the hoop.
Getting all those minutes from Varejao really will hurt your interior defense.
I will preface by saying in no way did the refs decide this game, that was decided by two stars going supernova, but the physical nature of the officiating played right into the Cavs hands last night. We saw it last year, the way to take Curry out of his game is to hammer him. Iggy was getting abused on drives and getting no calls, I think that took him out of his mindset as well, which hurt them on the defensive end. No Green, then no Bogut, and a physical game, just a disaster scenario for GS.
Also, Barnes was HORRIFIC.
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James was the best player in that game. Dominating impact on both ends (not to mention dragging PoC Kevin Love along all night as well). Irving stood out for sure, because his performance was more unusual. Everyone is just used to seeing that kind of play out a James on a more routine basis.
I suspect we'll get a game 7, but the only way I see that ending well for the Cavs, is if Love magically turns into the player people still seem to think he is, as opposed to the player he actually is.
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James was the best player in that game. Dominating impact on both ends (not to mention dragging PoC Kevin Love along all night as well). Irving stood out for sure, because his performance was more unusual. Everyone is just used to seeing that kind of play out a James on a more routine basis.
I suspect we'll get a game 7, but the only way I see that ending well for the Cavs, is if Love magically turns into the player people still seem to think he is, as opposed to the player he actually is.
I don't think we'll get a game 7. The Cavs were impressive last night, but the Warriors usually respond very well to getting hammered (only lost consecutive games once all season to OKC) and they'll have Green back.
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I don't think we'll get a game 7. The Cavs were impressive last night, but the Warriors usually respond very well to getting hammered (only lost consecutive games once all season to OKC) and they'll have Green back.
That's my feeling as well.
Green will be back, Barnes can't play much worse than last night, and Curry was off...all while Irving and James were having near-perfect games. Love will have a better game than last night, but still I expect a big bounce back from the Warriors.
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Aside from being a very entertaining thread to read that nugget was news to me as well. My guess would be the 'Ali' thread was the finale.
That would be surprising to me. Having read that thread a few minutes ago. A few posters played the racist card and attacked, a few others called them out for playing the race card. Certainly if that thread was the finale, then the others that were participating and making racist allegations would have been booted also. Though, with the hypersensitive liberal moderators here, you are probably correct.
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That would be surprising to me. Having read that thread a few minutes ago. A few posters played the racist card and attacked, a few others called them out for playing the race card. Certainly if that thread was the finale, then the others that were participating and making racist allegations would have been booted also. Though, with the hypersensitive liberal moderators here, you are probably correct.
Welcome back to Scoop, chicos/hoopaloop!
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That would be surprising to me. Having read that thread a few minutes ago. A few posters played the racist card and attacked, a few others called them out for playing the race card. Certainly if that thread was the finale, then the others that were participating and making racist allegations would have been booted also. Though, with the hypersensitive liberal moderators here, you are probably correct.
Created his account this morning and already has a strong opinion on the mods. Good to see you, Chicos!
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OMG is that funny....
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(https://steeshes.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/bobby-valentine.jpg?w=625)
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(http://img.memecdn.com/master-of-disguise_o_925589.jpg)
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Let me guess. Just two Marquette Warriors fans sharing their love of basketball and Disney. James TV Man was kind enough to tell you to bring the wife and kids down PCH and he'd be happy to hook you up with a few cold ones, some Disney tickets, and some cable. He then asked if he could use your cellular device to post on your account without using his Wifi, since his IP address is banned, but he gave you his Wifi password as a showing of good faith. And the rest, as we know it, is history.
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But back to the NBA Finals. I would assume Bogut will be out for the remainder of the series?
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But back to the NBA Finals. I would assume Bogut will be out for the remainder of the series?
Nothing official. I guess he is getting an MRI this morning. But even without a tear, a severely sprained knee isn't something you usually come back from in just few days.
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Nothing official. I guess he is getting an MRI this morning. But even without a tear, a severely sprained knee isn't something you usually come back from in just few days.
Yeah I just figured since they called it a sprain and Curry had the mildest grade sprain and missed 6 straight games that Bogut won't be back in the next 6 days.
While I don't think that's a devastating injury it does hurt their size and depth.
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(http://i.imgur.com/t3MYV.gif)
Greetings MUScoop Community. May I trouble you for a drink?
Chico's, who is this Chico's? My name is Guy Incognito.
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Yeah I just figured since they called it a sprain and Curry had the mildest grade sprain and missed 6 straight games that Bogut won't be back in the next 6 days.
While I don't think that's a devastating injury it does hurt their size and depth.
With Green out last game, losing Bogut hurt a lot because it killed any interior defense the Warriors had. With Green coming back, the loss of Bugut would not be a huge deal.
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With Green out last game, losing Bogut hurt a lot because it killed any interior defense the Warriors had. With Green coming back, the loss of Bugut would not be a huge deal.
Cavs goal: two fouls on Green in first five minutes.
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Created his account this morning and already has a strong opinion on the mods. Good to see you, Chicos!
Hi Drewm88.
Good to see you.
No one is hiding anything. The mods are well known for their positions. Nice guys, but is what is. Well renowned up here in the NW. They have a statute built.
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Hi Drewm88.
Good to see you.
No one is hiding anything. The mods are well known for their positions. Nice guys, but is what is. Well renowned up here in the NW. They have a statute built.
How are their positions so well known to you when you have been a member here for less than 12 hours?
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Created his account this morning and already has a strong opinion on the mods. Good to see you, Chicos!
It's hoopaloop, duh.
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A few points:
++ James and Irving were both amazing. To try to say one was "better" than the other ... what's the point except to just argue for the sake of arguing?
James dominated every facet of the game and Irving shot incredibly and controlled the rock.
++ I thought the difference came down to shooting.
In the second half, the Warriors missed a TON of wide-open looks. They made 11 threes in the first half but just 3 in the second half. Curry couldn't hit 'em, Thompson couldn't him 'em and the rest of the team launched brick after brick.
Meanwhile, the Warriors dared James to shoot and he knocked down open shots from 15 to 23 feet all night long. If LeBron is making his perimeter shot he is BY FAR the best basketball player on the planet. And from the opening tip, Irving was in a zone, and stayed there all game.
There are all kinds of complex ways to analyze it, including Green's absence, but one team knocked down the shots and the other -- the team that lives by the 3 -- couldn't.
++ Green has become a heck of a Jack-of-all-trades, but just a few weeks ago he was getting justifiably criticized for stinkin' up the joint.
++ Curry has been pretty bad (by his standards). He had one great game, a couple pedestrian games and a couple awful games. If LeBron had a similar stretch in the Finals, he'd be getting killed by the media. Everybody loves Steph.
++ In the big picture, not much has really changed. Each team has won in the other's arena and the Warriors still have home-court advantage. If the Warriors shoot as they usually do and get good performances from their role players (including Green -- an All-Star role player, if there is such a thing), and if James and Irving are less than excellent, the Warriors will win. They are still the more talented, deeper, better-coached team.
++ warriorOregon ... that's too effen funny!
He had a few screen names in mind, but choosing a winning screen name ... it's such a crapshoot. We can't really judge him for this screen name for 5 years, anyway.
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Cannot stop laughing at this warriororegon! Banning chicos is like playing whack a mole.
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How are their positions so well known to you when you have been a member here for less than 12 hours?
You can read anything on here without membership
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Cannot stop laughing at this warriororegon! Banning chicos is like playing whack a mole.
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You can read anything on here without membership
So you read up on here for awhile and just today decided to join? Mysteriously just a few days after Chicos disappears?
Sure.
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We're the only "friends" he's got - even though most of us can't stand the guy.
What a life >:(
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We're the only "friends" he's got - even though most of us can't stand the guy.
What a life >:(
You forgot Tom and Joani....
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He's also posted as thePhoenix...just yesterday with his first post.
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We're the only "friends" he's got - even though most of us can't stand the guy.
What a life >:(
You forgot Tom and Joani....
Really? Just Tom and Joani? The guy's got a longer list of celeb buddies than Heisey has clicks!
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This is fantastic.
If Chicos was really banned, then I am in on the fun, too. This is my new shadow username in brotherhood with him. If it drives a handful of lib members here crazy, then all the better.
I may do this 4 or 5 times.
Keep it going Chicos. Recruiting a few others here to do the same. Anonymous servers are easy.
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This is fantastic.
If Chicos was really banned, then I am in on the fun, too. This is my new shadow username in brotherhood with him. If it drives a handful of lib members here crazy, then all the better.
I may do this 4 or 5 times.
Keep it going Chicos. Recruiting a few others here to do the same. Anonymous servers are easy.
Lololololol. He's creating his own fan club now!
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He's his biggest (only) fan.
How sad.
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++ Curry has been pretty bad (by his standards). He had one great game, a couple pedestrian games and a couple awful games. If LeBron had a similar stretch in the Finals, he'd be getting killed by the media. Everybody loves Steph.
Steph is loved, and he's not been good by his standards, but I think Lebron gets killed cause when he plays bad, he's too in love with one part of his game. Steph is the best shooter ever, but he's still a shooter, so when he's cold, and he's getting hammered in the paint like he has in the playoffs, he's gonna struggle to score. Lebron is always the most athletic player on the floor with a size advantage over most everyone who guards him. His bad stretches are when he falls in love with his inconsistent jumper, or refuses to get into the post. Also the ball still will stay in his hands.
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What the hell is going on in here?
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Steph is loved, and he's not been good by his standards, but I think Lebron gets killed cause when he plays bad, he's too in love with one part of his game. Steph is the best shooter ever, but he's still a shooter, so when he's cold, and he's getting hammered in the paint like he has in the playoffs, he's gonna struggle to score. Lebron is always the most athletic player on the floor with a size advantage over most everyone who guards him. His bad stretches are when he falls in love with his inconsistent jumper, or refuses to get into the post. Also the ball still will stay in his hands.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/29/ed/3c29edcadd932f5068225268899ad423.jpg)
Bottom line, LBJ is a physical freak that the common person can't relate to what he can do. Steph(fair or not) represents a player that is perceived to be more about practice/hard work than a gift.
It is almost literally a David vs Goliath complex within the sports fan psyche
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Bottom line, LBJ is a physical freak that the common person can't relate to what he can do. Steph(fair or not) represents a player that is perceived to be more about practice/hard work than a gift.
Do people think a legitimate argument can be made that lebron has underachieved in his career relative to what his genetics/biology dictate? Does his physical make-up alone give enough of an advantage that, if his basketball talent were good enough, he should be the best ever?
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Do people think a legitimate argument can be made that lebron has underachieved in his career relative to what his genetics/biology dictate? Does his physical make-up alone give enough of an advantage that, if his basketball talent were good enough, he should be the best ever?
Indeed, I believe many people do think that. Those people need a lobotomy.
There have been plenty of athletic "freaks" in all sports who have failed to even come close to realizing their potential.
Through hard work, determination, intelligence and development of his physical skills, LeBron has had an amazing career.
I do agree with mu03 that Steph is viewed as more of an "everyman." He is about the same size as my son, so I could (if I were dopey) say, "If only my son had worked as hard, he might be in the NBA now, just like Steph." But there is nothing my son could have done to be LeBron.
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Do people think a legitimate argument can be made that lebron has underachieved in his career relative to what his genetics/biology dictate? Does his physical make-up alone give enough of an advantage that, if his basketball talent were good enough, he should be the best ever?
People think and legitimate argument colliding in that sentence makes my head hurt....but ultimately yes, I think the casual/majority sports fan looks at Lebron and says "well no kidding he's this good, look at him." They don't have an appreciation for the way LBJ has changed/adapted his talent for the game/way he is defended.
The general fan doesn't understand that he developed a post up game later in his career to counter defenses putting quick guards on him or that his 2pt% right now is insane and should be talking about in the same way we talk about Steph or Klay's 3pt. These concepts are hard to divorce from his very clear physical gifts and the era of basketball he played in.
To the casual fan Steph doesn't seem to have any inherent talent, it's all "earned" which means they are much more drawn to it then someone like LBJ who is "just a physical gift guy"
This is part of why the best ever discussion is stupid and can't actually be settled. Take just the technology of today versus even the Bird era. Bird physically broke down and that ended his career. What if he had modern medicine, sports science, training programs, and travel capabilities.....does he break down as rapidly or is his prime as short as it is? How do you account for that disparity when you compare eras and/or players. There is no doubt that LBJ has been blessed with a body that doesn't apparently injure or wear down easily(he also works at that but I digress). Should he get credit because he can stay on the court more than other superstars and so has more opportunity to be great?
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Indeed, I believe many people do think that. Those people need a lobotomy.
There have been plenty of athletic "freaks" in all sports who have failed to even come close to realizing their potential.
Through hard work, determination, intelligence and development of his physical skills, LeBron has had an amazing career.
I do agree with mu03 that Steph is viewed as more of an "everyman." He is about the same size as my son, so I could (if I were dopey) say, "If only my son had worked as hard, he might be in the NBA now, just like Steph." But there is nothing my son could have done to be LeBron.
I'm guessing if you asked people who has worked harder to get where they are - Steph or Lebron - a large majority would say Steph.
And they would say so because they see Lebron as a physical freak. But, let's not fool ourselves about Curry. He is a physical freak as well, though it isn't quite as obvious. A normal person does not possess that type of quickness nor can they work enough to ever acquire it.
Like your son, I was about the same size as Steph - 6'2", 175. I could have worked out 10 hours a day and never even come close to possessing Curry's physical skills.
My guess is that both of these guys spent more time honing their skills than any of us on the board here spent on learning our profesions. Being a naturally gifted athlete and being a great player are nowhere close to being the same thing.
I think Artie Green and Earl Tatum were the two most gifted "athletes" ever at MU. Neither was anywhere close to being the best basketball player here.
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I'm guessing if you asked people who has worked harder to get where they are - Steph or Lebron - a large majority would say Steph.
And they would say so because they see Lebron as a physical freak. But, let's not fool ourselves about Curry. He is a physical freak as well, though it isn't quite as obvious. A normal person does not possess that type of quickness nor can they work enough to ever acquire it.
Like your son, I was about the same size as Steph - 6'2", 175. I could have worked out 10 hours a day and never even come close to possessing Curry's physical skills.
My guess is that both of these guys spent more time honing their skills than any of us on the board here spent on learning our profesions. Being a naturally gifted athlete and being a great player are nowhere close to being the same thing.
I think Artie Green and Earl Tatum were the two most gifted "athletes" ever at MU. Neither was anywhere close to being the best basketball player here.
All great points, brand.
And nobody has mentioned the tremendous advantages Steph had growing up. His parents were wealthy. He attended great schools. He got to tag along with his dad, who was an outstanding NBA player. He had a brother who was almost as good as he was, testing him and competing with him. He had top-notch coaching, starting right in his own family.
LeBron had none of those family or financial advantages. By the time he was a teenager, he did have benefactors and others "helping" him. Some were good, some less so.
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All great points, brand.
And nobody has mentioned the tremendous advantages Steph had growing up. His parents were wealthy. He attended great schools. He got to tag along with his dad, who was an outstanding NBA player. He had a brother who was almost as good as he was, testing him and competing with him. He had top-notch coaching, starting right in his own family.
LeBron had none of those family or financial advantages. By the time he was a teenager, he did have benefactors and others "helping" him. Some were good, some less so.
A micropoint but Bill Simmons (whos played a lot of pick-up basketball) once talked about how hard it was to shoot in an NBA arena because of the depth perception, optics, glass backboards, etc. A lot of players get that experience starting in college but not universally....Steph has had it nearly his whole life, that is an advantage 99% of players don't have.
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A micropoint but Bill Simmons (whos played a lot of pick-up basketball) once talked about how hard it was to shoot in an NBA arena because of the depth perception, optics, glass backboards, etc. A lot of players get that experience starting in college but not universally....Steph has had it nearly his whole life, that is an advantage 99% of players don't have.
Klay too.
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People think and legitimate argument colliding in that sentence makes my head hurt....but ultimately yes, I think the casual/majority sports fan looks at Lebron and says "well no kidding he's this good, look at him." They don't have an appreciation for the way LBJ has changed/adapted his talent for the game/way he is defended.
The general fan doesn't understand that he developed a post up game later in his career to counter defenses putting quick guards on him or that his 2pt% right now is insane and should be talking about in the same way we talk about Steph or Klay's 3pt. These concepts are hard to divorce from his very clear physical gifts and the era of basketball he played in.
To the casual fan Steph doesn't seem to have any inherent talent, it's all "earned" which means they are much more drawn to it then someone like LBJ who is "just a physical gift guy"
This is part of why the best ever discussion is stupid and can't actually be settled. Take just the technology of today versus even the Bird era. Bird physically broke down and that ended his career. What if he had modern medicine, sports science, training programs, and travel capabilities.....does he break down as rapidly or is his prime as short as it is? How do you account for that disparity when you compare eras and/or players. There is no doubt that LBJ has been blessed with a body that doesn't apparently injure or wear down easily(he also works at that but I digress). Should he get credit because he can stay on the court more than other superstars and so has more opportunity to be great?
Lebron worked incredibly hard to develop his skills and his body. I think he has earned everything he has achieved. It is hard for the average person to relate to Lebron because his sheer physical presence is so amazing. I think sometimes that overshadows how hard he worked.
Likewise, Steph has spent hours developing the ability to have a quick step and quick release long range jump shot. The common man can relate to Steph much more because everyone who follows has seen a kid( or had one in the family) who has some of his qualities. Obviously, he has combined the speed and quickness with shooting in a way that few have ever done.
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That was kinda cool
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Will the arse whippin continue?
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Why can't we all be friends, hey?
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Curry fouls out for the first time in 3 years.
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Game 7. Cavs have momentum and Warriors demeanor is pretty sucky. But the home court is going to be the difference IMO.
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Curry fouls out for the first time in 3 years.
Too many dumb fouls. If the cavs are going to pick and rolls James onto him, he has to save them for that and stop grabbing guys off picks.
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Also, say what you want about Love, but the dude is a great teammate.
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Too many dumb fouls. If the cavs are going to pick and rolls James onto him, he has to save them for that and stop grabbing guys off picks.
The last 3 were not fouls and the announcers said so.
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The last 3 were not fouls and the announcers said so.
::)
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I'm starting to think Doc 4Never's boy could outperform Harrison Barnes, bad wheel and all, ai'na?
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Let me start by saying I really, really like watching Curry play, I think he's a hell of a talent and he seems to be a really nice guy.
Now, let me add that had LeBron acted like a whiny little b---- the way Steph did throughout the game, and had LeBron thrown his mouthguard into the crowd for a T with his team still in the game, LeBron would have been absolutely crucified by the media (not to mention the multitude of clueless haters).
And forgetful ...
The announcers only said the 4th and 6th fouls were "tough calls," which is different than bad calls. What they meant is that Steph didn't get the "star treatment" he is used to, especially on No. 6. The only one they really railed against was the reach-in when stealing from Irving (the 5th foul), and even that one they acknowledged that Steph held Irving before committing the foul. (Steph does a TON of grabbing because he is a positionally poor defender.) And Irving was called for almost the exact same foul earlier in the game (and didn't care for the call).
Van Gundy also said the refs made a "great no-call" when Curry tried to draw a foul on a 3-pointer by sticking out his leg. Curry whined and whined about that one for about 2 minutes -- even as the Cavs were coming back up court with the ball.
Again, I like Steph a lot, but he really lost his cool in a huge game tonight.
Mark Jackson quietly took Klay to task for leaving to go to the locker room before the game ended. Again, LeBron would have been roundly ripped (and deservedly so) for doing that in a similar situation.
Finally ... Draymond Green ... declaring that the Warriors would have won if he played Game 5 ... effen hilarious.
Did he not play in Game 3 (blowout loss) and Game 6 (blowout loss)? Did he not play in the three losses to OKC, a couple of which he was dreadful? He's a good all-around player and obviously an "energy guy," but he's hardly an unbeatable force.
The guy who has been the best player in the world for a decade now has been the best player in this series -- and by a pretty wide margin.
Crap, LeBron threw 5 or 6 passes today that only the best PGs in history could have thrown. The blocked shots. The 41 points for the second straight game, including several beat-the-shot-clock buckets when GS was rallying.
Today's basketball fans are lucky to have gotten to watch this amazing athlete play.
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Let me start by saying I really, really like watching Curry play, I think he's a hell of a talent and he seems to be a really nice guy.
Now, let me add that had LeBron acted like a whiny little b---- the way Steph did throughout the game, and had LeBron thrown his mouthguard into the crowd for a T with his team still in the game, LeBron would have been absolutely crucified by the media (not to mention the multitude of clueless haters).
And forgetful ...
The announcers only said the 4th and 6th fouls were "tough calls," which is different than bad calls. What they meant is that Steph didn't get the "star treatment" he is used to, especially on No. 6. The only one they really railed against was the reach-in when stealing from Irving (the 5th foul), and even that one they acknowledged that Steph held Irving before committing the foul. (Steph does a TON of grabbing because he is a positionally poor defender.) And Irving was called for almost the exact same foul earlier in the game (and didn't care for the call).
Van Gundy also said the refs made a "great no-call" when Curry tried to draw a foul on a 3-pointer by sticking out his leg. Curry whined and whined about that one for about 2 minutes -- even as the Cavs were coming back up court with the ball.
Again, I like Steph a lot, but he really lost his cool in a huge game tonight.
Mark Jackson quietly took Klay to task for leaving to go to the locker room before the game ended. Again, LeBron would have been roundly ripped (and deservedly so) for doing that in a similar situation.
Finally ... Draymond Green ... declaring that the Warriors would have won if he played Game 5 ... effen hilarious.
Did he not play in Game 3 (blowout loss) and Game 6 (blowout loss)? Did he not play in the three losses to OKC, a couple of which he was dreadful? He's a good all-around player and obviously an "energy guy," but he's hardly an unbeatable force.
The guy who has been the best player in the world for a decade now has been the best player in this series -- and by a pretty wide margin.
Crap, LeBron threw 5 or 6 passes today that only the best PGs in history could have thrown. The blocked shots. The 41 points for the second straight game, including several beat-the-shot-clock buckets when GS was rallying.
Today's basketball fans are lucky to have gotten to watch this amazing athlete play.
Amen. Completely under appreciated.
Golden State likely wins Sunday, but the Warriors demeanor is terrible. And their defense hasn't been much better. They turned it around against the Thunder so we will see what they come up with.
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Not disagreeing with the Curry behavior criticism but at least he didn't whine/snitch about a player taunting him then turn around the next game and do the very same thing he whined about.
Also, from Steph's prospective and this is what drives me nuts about the NBA and officiating generally....its not necessarily the fouls on Steph that get called thats and issue, it's the fouls on the Cavs guard Steph that don't get called. By the letter of the law there are a ton of touch fouls, hand checks, hard hedges, and jersey tugs they aren't calling when Steph or Klay are running around on offense(OKC set the standard) that take a toll physically. Hell, that pretty much sums up Shaq's entire career experience.
If these things are fouls lets call them, I hate the officials scaling the calls because that's where things start to feel a little match fixy
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the cavs look like a whole different team. well that can happen kyrie and jr are hitting from the outside and lebron is well, all over the floor doing everything. lebron is being da man. that home crowd was electric.
game 7 is going to be a war! who do you think the NBA has picked to win it? ;)
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I'm starting to think Doc 4Never's boy could outperform Harrison Barnes, bad wheel and all, ai'na?
Kerr loves 'im. Gotta represent in da Vegas Summer League, hey?
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LBJ is such a punk-ass biatch. He has to be #1 in everything this series.
His ego is so big, he has to lead both teams in points, rebounds, blocks, assists, steals, minutes played, & FG%.
Just the worst.
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LBJ is such a punk-ass biatch. He has to be #1 in everything this series.
His ego is so big, he has to lead both teams in points, rebounds, blocks, assists, steals, minutes played, & FG%.
Just the worst.
He will probably throw two mouthguards on Sunday just to lead in that stat as well ;D
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Not disagreeing with the Curry behavior criticism but at least he didn't whine/snitch about a player taunting him then turn around the next game and do the very same thing he whined about.
Also, from Steph's prospective and this is what drives me nuts about the NBA and officiating generally....its not necessarily the fouls on Steph that get called thats and issue, it's the fouls on the Cavs guard Steph that don't get called. By the letter of the law there are a ton of touch fouls, hand checks, hard hedges, and jersey tugs they aren't calling when Steph or Klay are running around on offense(OKC set the standard) that take a toll physically. Hell, that pretty much sums up Shaq's entire career experience.
If these things are fouls lets call them, I hate the officials scaling the calls because that's where things start to feel a little match fixy
mu03:
Very fair comment. Steph gets held and bumped a lot, and some of the bumps are more than just little bumps. I have to laugh when people say today's NBA is reffed so much differently than it was in the Jordan era. Maybe in the regular season, but the playoffs are still a version of hand-to-hand combat.
The two worst calls in the game, IMHO, were against Cleveland. Love's third foul was a phantom call the ref made only after Green missed an easy layup -- I guess conspiracy theorists would say the NBA obviously didn't want a Game 7. And Tristan Thompson was called for a moving screen as the Warriors were rallying furiously in the fourth quarter. It definitely was a moving screen -- the kind set by players from both teams on almost every single non-fastbreak possession; why the ref decided to call that one, which wasn't particularly hard or egregious, I don't know.
NBA officials actually are incredible. They have a brutally difficult job and could make several calls every trip down the court, and most of the time they do a fine job of calling the most important stuff and keeping the flow of the game going. So calls like the two fouls above and Curry's sixth foul are real head-scratchers because they speak to unacceptable inconsistency.
I agree about LeBron taunting and then whining. It's beneath him. The best player in the world doesn't need to act like that.
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LBJ is such a punk-ass biatch. He has to be #1 in everything this series.
His ego is so big, he has to lead both teams in points, rebounds, blocks, assists, steals, minutes played, & FG%.
Just the worst.
I love these arguments. "The guy is really talented at basketball so he can't be a bad person, he's gotta be a great guy!"
Let me guess, you think OJ is legitimately innocent. I mean, the guy rushed for over TWO THOUSAND YARDS in ONE SEASON! He's the worst!
But please, continue to tell us how great of a husband and father he is. ;D
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I love these arguments. "The guy is really talented at basketball so he can't be a bad person, he's gotta be a great guy!"
Let me guess, you think OJ is legitimately innocent. I mean, the guy rushed for over TWO THOUSAND YARDS in ONE SEASON! He's the worst!
But please, continue to tell us how great of a husband and father he is. ;D
Cool, I was wrong about him, so he cheated on his wife an Instagram model. But please continue to opine about how overrated he is on the basketball court.
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Cool, I was wrong about him, so he cheated on his wife an Instagram model. But please continue to opine about how overrated he is on the basketball court.
If you can find me calling him overrated on the basketball court I will happily admit that I was wrong and he is not overrated. Good luck finding where I said it!
I think 1 person at MUScoop has said it. His basketball skills have nothing to do with whether he is a "punk-ass biatch" or a future Saint.
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He will probably throw two mouthguards on Sunday just to lead in that stat as well ;D
I wonder who he's gonna punch in the balls.
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If you can find me calling him overrated on the basketball court I will happily admit that I was wrong and he is not overrated. Good luck finding where I said it!
You said his defense is overrated. Do I get a half point for that?
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51952.msg843979#msg843979
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You said his defense is overrated. Do I get a half point for that?
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51952.msg843979#msg843979
Sure, half of a point to Sultan.
Overall, he is undoubtedly a top 10 player in the history of basketball, probably top 5, especially when all is said and done, but not number one. I'm sure at some point in my life and his career I have said he isn't a top 10 player ever...but at the time I said it he probably wasn't.
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Jordan is the only player who is an obvious, no-brainer pick as being better than LeBron.
One certainly could make good arguments for Magic, Russell and a handful of others mentioned earlier in this thread, but nobody -- not even Jordan or Oscar Robertson -- has been as great at as many things as LeBron is.
I'm not big into the whole "legacy" thing. But if LeBron wins this title against that team after being down 3-1, to go with all of his other accomplishments, wow. And he's still only 31 years old. He has at least 5 more excellent seasons left.
In a related note ...
LeBron isn't as good a trash-talker as Michael was, but he has surpassed Magic in the getting-coach-fired statistic.
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One certainly could make good arguments for Magic, Russell and a handful of others mentioned earlier in this thread...
I about choked last night when the announcer said, "there's Tracy McGrady and Mike Miller..." Hey...that grey-haired fellow sitting next to them is Bill F'ing Russell. Thank goodness Jackson immediately pointed out the omission.
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I about choked last night when the announcer said, "there's Tracy McGrady and Mike Miller..." Hey...that grey-haired fellow sitting next to them is Bill F'ing Russell. Thank goodness Jackson immediately pointed out the omission.
Yeah that was great.
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I about choked last night when the announcer said, "there's Tracy McGrady and Mike Miller..." Hey...that grey-haired fellow sitting next to them is Bill F'ing Russell. Thank goodness Jackson immediately pointed out the omission.
Not to get too off-topic but one of my favorite tidbits about Russell is that the Hawks traded his draft rights to Boston for TWO future Hall of Famers and still lost that trade.
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Not to get too off-topic but one of my favorite tidbits about Russell is that the Hawks traded his draft rights to Boston for TWO future Hall of Famers and still lost that trade.
We all know this now, but anytime you trade a guy who looks like this for Bill Russell, you know you've made a bad trade.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Ed_Macauley_1953.jpeg)
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We all know this now, but anytime you trade a guy who looks like this for Bill Russell, you know you've made a bad trade.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Ed_Macauley_1953.jpeg)
Bet he had a mean stanky legg though
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For as many lopsided games as there have been, this has been a great series.
Regarding star players losing their cool - LBJ lost it big time late in game 4, then came back with huge performances in games 5 and 6. He deserves a lot of credit for that. Steph really lost it last night - it will be interesting to see if he can step it up on Sunday like LBJ did.
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For as many lopsided games as there have been, this has been a great series.
Regarding star players losing their cool - LBJ lost it big time late in game 4, then came back with huge performances in games 5 and 6. He deserves a lot of credit for that. Steph really lost it last night - it will be interesting to see if he can step it up on Sunday like LBJ did.
The series is tied scoring wise 610-610. Yet no game has been within 10 points.
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And now another brilliant party heard from:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/article84367717.html#emlnl=todays-headlines_newsletter
Steph Curry’s wife prompts a social media storm with her tweeted complaint about the NBA Finals being "rigged." She deleted the tweet, blaming it on “a long night” in which her father had been detained by security at the arena, but Twitter, characteristically, showed no mercy.
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And now another brilliant party heard from:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/article84367717.html#emlnl=todays-headlines_newsletter
Steph Curry’s wife prompts a social media storm with her tweeted complaint about the NBA Finals being "rigged." She deleted the tweet, blaming it on “a long night” in which her father had been detained by security at the arena, but Twitter, characteristically, showed no mercy.
Yea, but LeBron is such a douche and the entire Warriors team and everyone associated with them are such classy individuals. ::)
Honestly, I haven't heard crap about this, Steph throwing his mouth piece or Klay leaving the court early a la, the bad boy Pistons.
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Yea, but LeBron is such a douche and the entire Warriors team and everyone associated with them are such classy individuals. ::)
Honestly, I haven't heard crap about this, Steph throwing his mouth piece or Klay leaving the court early a la, the bad boy Pistons.
The Curry mouthpiece thing was on Good Morning America, ESPN, Fox Sports, SB Nation, SI, USA Today, and pretty much every other news outlet that covers NBA basketball. Really low-key.
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Yea, but LeBron is such a douche and the entire Warriors team and everyone associated with them are such classy individuals. ::)
Honestly, I haven't heard crap about this, Steph throwing his mouth piece or Klay leaving the court early a la, the bad boy Pistons.
What does one have to do with the other? Why can't one or both be douches?
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Let me start by saying I really, really like watching Curry play, I think he's a hell of a talent and he seems to be a really nice guy.
Now, let me add that had LeBron acted like a whiny little b---- the way Steph did throughout the game, and had LeBron thrown his mouthguard into the crowd for a T with his team still in the game, LeBron would have been absolutely crucified by the media (not to mention the multitude of clueless haters).
And forgetful ...
The announcers only said the 4th and 6th fouls were "tough calls," which is different than bad calls. What they meant is that Steph didn't get the "star treatment" he is used to, especially on No. 6. The only one they really railed against was the reach-in when stealing from Irving (the 5th foul), and even that one they acknowledged that Steph held Irving before committing the foul. (Steph does a TON of grabbing because he is a positionally poor defender.) And Irving was called for almost the exact same foul earlier in the game (and didn't care for the call).
Van Gundy also said the refs made a "great no-call" when Curry tried to draw a foul on a 3-pointer by sticking out his leg. Curry whined and whined about that one for about 2 minutes -- even as the Cavs were coming back up court with the ball.
Again, I like Steph a lot, but he really lost his cool in a huge game tonight.
Mark Jackson quietly took Klay to task for leaving to go to the locker room before the game ended. Again, LeBron would have been roundly ripped (and deservedly so) for doing that in a similar situation.
Finally ... Draymond Green ... declaring that the Warriors would have won if he played Game 5 ... effen hilarious.
Did he not play in Game 3 (blowout loss) and Game 6 (blowout loss)? Did he not play in the three losses to OKC, a couple of which he was dreadful? He's a good all-around player and obviously an "energy guy," but he's hardly an unbeatable force.
The guy who has been the best player in the world for a decade now has been the best player in this series -- and by a pretty wide margin.
Crap, LeBron threw 5 or 6 passes today that only the best PGs in history could have thrown. The blocked shots. The 41 points for the second straight game, including several beat-the-shot-clock buckets when GS was rallying.
Today's basketball fans are lucky to have gotten to watch this amazing athlete play.
If the Warriors were still in the game before Curry got T'd up then they were still in the game after he was T'd up. The T meant absolutely nothing to the outcome of the game. Curry had already fouled out so it's not like that took him out of the game and ruined their chances that way, the Cavs had the ball so it's not like they lost possession there, so the Cavs got one, single free throw out of it. That didn't swing the game from the Warriors being right there to an insurmountable lead.
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For as many lopsided games as there have been, this has been a great series.
Regarding star players losing their cool - LBJ lost it big time late in game 4, then came back with huge performances in games 5 and 6. He deserves a lot of credit for that. Steph really lost it last night - it will be interesting to see if he can step it up on Sunday like LBJ did.
Memorable teams have to have memorable rivals to overcome. Game 7 will be interesting
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Memorable teams have to have memorable rivals to overcome. Game 7 will be interesting
Agree. One of my favorite things about the Showtime Lakers was their rivalry with the Celtics. They played three times in a four year period in the 1980s (84, 85 and 87), and they went six games once and seven games twice, with the Lakers winning two out of the three series.
Perhaps someday we will be looking back at the Cavaliers and Warriors in a similar way.
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Lololololol. He's creating his own fan club now!
I am a fan. He's been a friend for 20 years. Count me in supporting him also. In Vegas this weekend and tried to get him and his wife to come meet us. We have done the Vegas routine with them several times.
He told me he really was banned. We do not always agree on politics, but he should be here. I am afraid to even use my regular username because it will be blacklisted here, and that is why I will use the hotel's ip instead for this weekend.
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I am a fan. He's been a friend for 20 years. Count me in supporting him also. In Vegas this weekend and tried to get him and his wife to come meet us. We have done the Vegas routine with them several times.
He told me he really was banned. We do not always agree on politics, but he should be here. I am afraid to even use my regular username because it will be blacklisted here, and that is why I will use the hotel's ip instead for this weekend.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Jordan is the only player who is an obvious, no-brainer pick as being better than LeBron.
One certainly could make good arguments for Magic, Russell and a handful of others mentioned earlier in this thread, but nobody -- not even Jordan or Oscar Robertson -- has been as great at as many things as LeBron is.
You're right. I think he has made an excellent case for being #2 all-time. I don't know for sure that I would put him ahead of Kareem, but I don't discount putting him there either.
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If the Warriors were still in the game before Curry got T'd up then they were still in the game after he was T'd up. The T meant absolutely nothing to the outcome of the game. Curry had already fouled out so it's not like that took him out of the game and ruined their chances that way, the Cavs had the ball so it's not like they lost possession there, so the Cavs got one, single free throw out of it. That didn't swing the game from the Warriors being right there to an insurmountable lead.
Fair points, wades.
The air completely went out of the balloon after Curry lost his cool, but maybe it would have anyway.
For the record, I thought the fine he received was appropriate but thought Kerr should have been fined more. And I actually know Kerr a little bit and consider him one of the real good guys in sports. Not only did he rip the refs -- which was as much for Game 7 as anything -- but he stated he was a proponent of Curry's reaction. No NBA coach should say that it's a good thing to hurl equipment into the stands.
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Fair points, wades.
The air completely went out of the balloon after Curry lost his cool, but maybe it would have anyway.
For the record, I thought the fine he received was appropriate but thought Kerr should have been fined more. And I actually know Kerr a little bit and consider him one of the real good guys in sports. Not only did he rip the refs -- which was as much for Game 7 as anything -- but he stated he was a proponent of Curry's reaction. No NBA coach should say that it's a good thing to hurl equipment into the stands.
It shouldn't have happened, but I don't think it changed the outcome of the game. The game basically continued the same way it had gone before that. Cavs go on a huge run to take a big lead, Warriors chip away to cut it to just barely single digits, Cavs make another big run. Curry would've needed to get incredibly hot over the last 4 minutes to make a real run at the Cavs...but that was his 6th foul anyway, which is why he lost his cool. I understand his frustration because every time he tries to change directions off the ball he is being grabbed and pulled at by 2 defenders, and then he is trying to run out of a 6'9", 250 lb guy's way and gets called for his 6th foul. He shouldn't have thrown the mouth guard, but after his 10 second meltdown he handled it pretty well actually. Even the guy he hit with the mouth guard (who is the son of a Cavs minority owner) said he apologized and was really polite. That doesn't make it okay, but I don't think that event took away the Warriors chance to win the game.
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I am a fan. He's been a friend for 20 years. Count me in supporting him also. In Vegas this weekend and tried to get him and his wife to come meet us. We have done the Vegas routine with them several times.
He told me he really was banned. We do not always agree on politics, but he should be here. I am afraid to even use my regular username because it will be blacklisted here, and that is why I will use the hotel's ip instead for this weekend.
Chicos you are pathological.
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Chicos you are pathological.
I do enjoy all of Chicos' close friends that pop up out of nowhere after he gets banned.
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i absolutely loved that movie, "catch me if you can"! coming soon- part II, leavin las vegas baby!
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Free Chicos 2016
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Nah. There aren't a lot of rules around here. He continually flaunted the few the moderators have. He really left them no choice.
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I will miss Chicos about as much as I miss the stye I had removed from my right eyelid last year.
I like to have conversations. I don't like to be agitated by name-dropping know-it-alls who argue for the sake of arguing.
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We're the only "friends" he's got - even though most of us can't stand the guy.
What a life >:(
Agreed. Hope the mods considered this very carefully before taking action. Its obvious this board is a huge part of his life (as weird as that sounds) and its possible that losing it may cause him to really go off the deep end.
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Chicos you are pathological.
He sent a note out to many of us that he was banned. Wished us the best. Doesn't surprise me that you weren't on the list.
4ever, Rocket, probably 30 others were. Your response is to label anyone that signs up as him.
Talk about pathological
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I will miss Chicos about as much as I miss the stye I had removed from my right eyelid last year.
I like to have conversations. I don't like to be agitated by name-dropping know-it-alls who argue for the sake of arguing.
You and I are more aligned politically then I am with Chicos. Yet I typically find your presentation below par. You are passive aggressive, much like Chicos is, but you play this pretend game of innocence without owning your actions or your remarks. The times you call people liars is inexcusable, especially when you are wrong. Terrible on your part, but all too often one of your traits.
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Agreed. Hope the mods considered this very carefully before taking action. Its obvious this board is a huge part of his life (as weird as that sounds) and its possible that losing it may cause him to really go off the deep end.
coming from an expert-nice. what do they call this? projection or something like that?
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You and I are more aligned politically then I am with Chicos. Yet I typically find your presentation below par. You are passive aggressive, much like Chicos is, but you play this pretend game of innocence without owning your actions or your remarks. The times you call people liars is inexcusable, especially when you are wrong. Terrible on your part, but all too often one of your traits.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Chicos is getting around this week. Oregon one day, Vegas the next. What personal friend celebs might he be visiting? And where will he be tomorrow?
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Agreed. Hope the mods considered this very carefully before taking action. Its obvious this board is a huge part of his life (as weird as that sounds) and its possible that losing it may cause him to really go off the deep end.
He is a massive MU fan, unlike you.
He took me to a Super Bowl probably 4 or 5 years ago. What an experience that was. At the ESPN and Playboys parties he introduced me to a number of celebs. He isn't hurting for friends, the guy had more people coming up to him than most.
If the alcohol is talking, I am sorry. 105 here today, and I have been pounding drinks for most of the day.
Free chicos
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He is a massive MU fan, unlike you.
He took me to a Super Bowl probably 4 or 5 years ago. What an experience that was. At the ESPN and Playboys parties he introduced me to a number of celebs. He isn't hurting for friends, the guy had more people coming up to him than most.
If the alcohol is talking, I am sorry. 105 here today, and I have been pounding drinks for most of the day.
Free chicos
To quote a wise man : "Chicos STFU". Only Chicos would go to Vegas and "pound drinks" and post 10 times in one day to a college basketball message board.
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You and I are more aligned politically then I am with Chicos. Yet I typically find your presentation below par. You are passive aggressive, much like Chicos is, but you play this pretend game of innocence without owning your actions or your remarks. The times you call people liars is inexcusable, especially when you are wrong. Terrible on your part, but all too often one of your traits.
This post is absolute proof of who this is. Sounds very similar to a PM that he sent to me.
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He is a massive MU fan, unlike you.
He took me to a Super Bowl probably 4 or 5 years ago. What an experience that was. At the ESPN and Playboys parties he introduced me to a number of celebs. He isn't hurting for friends, the guy had more people coming up to him than most.
If the alcohol is talking, I am sorry. 105 here today, and I have been pounding drinks for most of the day.
Free chicos
What. A. Guy.
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Hey Boo Boo, now that your buddy's gone, does that make you number one bigot around here?
news flash mutation-we got rid of the POLITICS a few weeks ago !! NO POLITICS! can't you follow the rules?
keep projecting dude-you still add nothing to this board so you might as well find one of your legal beagal boards where you guys hang out because you are going to go buh-bye pretty soon. you haven't added anything positive nor substantive since you've been here.
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In before the lock.
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Hey Boo Boo, now that your buddy's gone, does that make you number one bigot around here?
Unnecessary, uncalled for shot.
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You and I are more aligned politically then I am with Chicos. Yet I typically find your presentation below par.
Nobody here gives a rat's rump what you or your alter ego think of my presentation or anybody else's presentation.
Now, please tell us more about the parties you've attended and the thousands of celeb friends hoopaloop has.
Go Warriors!
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Hey Boo Boo, now that your buddy's gone, does that make you number one bigot around here?
I thought the politics board was closed.
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Nobody here gives a rat's rump what you or your alter ego think of my presentation or anybody else's presentation.
Now, please tell us more about the parties you've attended and the thousands of celeb friends hoopaloop has.
Go Warriors!
I don't care for your approach in calling people liars, when they are not. It is unsettling and bears false witness. Cringe when you make those comments.
You claimed he has no friends, another false claim. My wife and I were hoping to see them this weekend here in Vegas, but they are at a wedding with friends in California. With friends. With friends.
For someone like me who doesn't deal with celebrities, it was so much fun. Truth be told, his regular friends are great people, at least the ones I have met.
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I thought the politics board was closed.
Some guys here have a free pass to keep making things political and blasting other members here without punishment.
Members would be advised to read the terms and conditions when they sign up.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Chicos is getting around this week. Oregon one day, Vegas the next. What personal friend celebs might he be visiting? And where will he be tomorrow?
We are heading home in a few hours. Chico lives in California, that is not where home is for us. I have never been to Oregon in my life.
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To quote a wise man : "Chicos STFU". Only Chicos would go to Vegas and "pound drinks" and post 10 times in one day to a college basketball message board.
If we are to believe you, then the others you accused of being him this week that did not have 10 posts would not be him?
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I don't care for your approach in calling people liars, when they are not. It is unsettling and bears false witness. Cringe when you make those comments.
You claimed he has no friends, another false claim. My wife and I were hoping to see them this weekend here in Vegas, but they are at a wedding with friends in California. With friends. With friends.
For someone like me who doesn't deal with celebrities, it was so much fun. Truth be told, his regular friends are great people, at least the ones I have met.
zzzzzzzz
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Ok, now that someone opened a nice Game 7 thread, this one has run its course.