Warriors vs Cavaliers II

[reinko]

How is this thread still going?   The amount of HOT TAKES is amazing.   It's like if Skip Bayless and Stephen A. had a love child that just spit hot fire.

Keep it up gents.

[forgetful]

forgetful:

So, you believe the NBA actually wanted the Spurs to win 5 titles and to be the most dominant team of the last generation?

brand:

Such a great point about Curry. My son and I were talking about just this today. LeBron would be getting KILLED for anything close to that kind of performance. It's not just the lack of scoring. He looks lost out there. The turnovers! I actually HOPE he's hurt, because otherwise ... yikes!

The Spurs won 5 titles over a span of 15 years.  They lost one other year.

During that same time:

The Lakers won 5 titles and lost 2 other titles.

The Lakers are the most dominant team of the last generation.  And the Lakers were most definitely aided by manipulation of games by the NBA (2002 cough cough).

[JWags85]

It's rigged for Lebron.

It's not rigged for Curry.

Not sure if this is teal or not, but Lebron ran a guy over yesterday, got the blocking call, and Mark Jackson praised him for "inciting contact".  He looked like Marshawn Lynch hitting the hole.  Like him or not, no other player in the league gets that call consistently like he does.  Combination of preferential treatment and freakish size.

As for Curry, he's not 100%.  Hitting shots in some games and having stretches where he looks like his normal self doesn't mean he is.  Its not black and white.  He's the best shooter in history, even on one leg he's going to have runs, but his decision making and driving, his defense, all have suffered.  The Cavs have switched a lot on him, which is smart, but he hasn't destroyed Irving yet, and Irving is a terrible defender.  That alone tells you something.

He also already pulled out of the Olympics and its not like he already has a medal.

[brandx]

Not sure if this is teal or not, but Lebron ran a guy over yesterday, got the blocking call, and Mark Jackson praised him for "inciting contact".  He looked like Marshawn Lynch hitting the hole.  Like him or not, no other player in the league gets that call consistently like he does.  Combination of preferential treatment and freakish size.

As for Curry, he's not 100%.  Hitting shots in some games and having stretches where he looks like his normal self doesn't mean he is.  Its not black and white.  He's the best shooter in history, even on one leg he's going to have runs, but his decision making and driving, his defense, all have suffered.  The Cavs have switched a lot on him, which is smart, but he hasn't destroyed Irving yet, and Irving is a terrible defender.  That alone tells you something.

He also already pulled out of the Olympics and its not like he already has a medal.

I think part of the problem is that charging/blocking calls are so different in the NBA than college.

In the NBA, you actually have to play defense. You have to beat the man to position. In college, inside the lane looks like a picket fence as guys line up to take charges.

[GGGG]

If you are talking about the Varejo foul that was 100% defensive. No doubt.

Or it's a conspiracy.

[forgetful]

If you are talking about the Varejo foul that was 100% defensive. No doubt.

Or it's a conspiracy.

Which one, the one where Varejo was driving and Lebron got in the way, or the one that Lebron was driving and Varejo got in the way.

Essentially same play a couple minutes apart.  It was an offensive foul on Varejo, and a defensive foul on Varejo.

Another example of bias is on statistics.  Two games ago Lebron was listed at having 6 TOs.  He then committed two traveling violations.  The announcers listed him at 8 TOs. 

He then through a ball out of bounds.  A minute later they list him at 7 TOs.  Only player I know that can commit another TO and they start to subtract away later in the game.

[GGGG]

Man your conspiracies are getting weirder and weirder. Now the official scorers are padding Lebron's stats...

[forgetful]

Man your conspiracies are getting weirder and weirder. Now the official scorers are padding Lebron's stats...

I never said their was a conspiracy.  But it did happen.

I didn't say they always do it, but they got it wrong in game 2.  I had gone back and looked at it and they reassigned TOs to other players for bad passes from Lebron. 

They went back an reassigned TOs to the person the ball was passed to instead of the person making the pass.  That is not how it works. 

And as an added aside.  Official scorer bias towards stars is well known in just about every sport.  It is not really a conspiracy.  it is human nature.

[MU82]

The Spurs won 5 titles over a span of 15 years.  They lost one other year.

During that same time:

The Lakers won 5 titles and lost 2 other titles.

The Lakers are the most dominant team of the last generation.  And the Lakers were most definitely aided by manipulation of games by the NBA (2002 cough cough).

OK, but did the NBA rig the 5 titles for the Spurs?

[rocket surgeon]

I think people like you that watch the NBA a lot, and have watched it as a big fan for many years are oblivious to the absurdity of NBA officiating.  You just see it as normal and correct.

To people that are lifelong basketball players first, and college fans second and only casual NBA fans, we observe how poorly and unbalanced the officiating often is in the NBA.

i realize i'm a day late here, but i have to throw forgetful a bone here.  i agree 100%.  i've played the game and i've watched it evolve.  wowo!  there are times when i wonder if i'm watching a combo of rugby, hockey and basketball.  the amount of contact is immeasurable.  i don't know what the standards for a foul are anymore.  bodies flying around, 3, 4 steps, what pivot foot?  i just about soiled myself when they actually called a traveling on lebron the other night.  it's gotten to the point re:fouls that when one is called, the players look incredulous.  i was watching adams in a game throw moving picks like he was a pulling guard.  in the middle, when guys are trying to pass thru the lane, the defenders just grab them by the jersey?? 

there seems to be times when the refs just let everything go and then they must get together and say-ok, time to calm things down a little.  or how about in college?  how many times would it be like 7-1 in team fouls and...just wait...here they come, tweet tweet tweet fixed it.  3-4 quick ones and no problem.  college refs are the worst at consistency.  just when the players get a feel for how the gang is calling the game, the 2nd half is completely different and fouls that previously drew blood are now "patty cake" fouls

oh, the short version-you're onto something here.  i know we may go a little over the top, but there are no real standards for what constitutes a foul, double dribble, traveling, oh, 3 seconds?  when have you heard that one lately?   

[CTWarrior]

I think historically referees have given teams down 2-0 coming home in playoff series special treatment (as the NBA hates sweeps) and the stars are definitely protected more than a little.  Beyond that, not so much. 

The one time I thought things felt rigged at the time was actually Wade's first championship with the Heat.  I was rooting for the Heat because of Wade (and Shaq because I hate Kobe Bryant) in that series and couldn't believe how they got every single call.  I don't normally notice bad officiating when it helps my team, but that was blatant.  I think Cuban actually paid former FBI guys to investigate or something, but I am hazy on the details.

[tower912]

The game was more physical a generation ago.  Has anybody else noticed that Golden State's lineup of death is Steph Curry and 4 switchables?

[GGGG]

i realize i'm a day late here, but i have to throw forgetful a bone here.  i agree 100%.  i've played the game and i've watched it evolve.  wowo!  there are times when i wonder if i'm watching a combo of rugby, hockey and basketball.  the amount of contact is immeasurable.

As tower said, there was much more contact 30 years ago.

[wadesworld]

The game was more physical a generation ago.  Has anybody else noticed that Golden State's lineup of death is Steph Curry and 4 switchables?

Yes but their switchables go 6'8" 225, 6'7" 230, 6'7" 215, 6'6" 215, and all 4 of them defend bigger than they are.

[reinko]

Effin,  overrated POS.

[brandx]

I think historically referees have given teams down 2-0 coming home in playoff series special treatment (as the NBA hates sweeps) and the stars are definitely protected more than a little.  Beyond that, not so much. 

The one time I thought things felt rigged at the time was actually Wade's first championship with the Heat.  I was rooting for the Heat because of Wade (and Shaq because I hate Kobe Bryant) in that series and couldn't believe how they got every single call.  I don't normally notice bad officiating when it helps my team, but that was blatant.  I think Cuban actually paid former FBI guys to investigate or something, but I am hazy on the details.

One thing that a lot of people don't take into account is that most stars in the NBA play to contact rather than trying to avoid it as we see in college.

We get used to watching Duane Wilson or Haanif try to slither through an opening, whereas Lebron takes it right to the defender. Most of the great scorers in the NBA do that

[jesmu84]

[brandx]

Traveling? I don't see no stinkin' traveling.

[GooooMarquette]

I think historically referees have given teams down 2-0 coming home in playoff series special treatment (as the NBA hates sweeps) and the stars are definitely protected more than a little.  Beyond that, not so much. 

Nailed it.

[rocket surgeon]

As tower said, there was much more contact 30 years ago.

i can't totally disagree with that as i remember well some of the battles kareem had to put up with.  one of his chief nemesis' was dennis autry with the 76'ers. autry had very little b-ball talent, so he was b-balls version of a goon.  other well fought battles-wes unseld, willis reed, come to mind

[forgetful]

As tower said, there was much more contact 30 years ago.

Except that is patently false.  People always say that.  I watched a lot of NBA basketball a generation ago.  Go back and watch the 1984 finals (I rewatched game 7 today to see if I was misremembering).  There is far far less contact.  The NBA players of today would foul out within the first period. 

We remember more contact, because when they wanted to foul you it was going to be a very hard contact foul (would be a flagrant today), but overall far less contact.

Normal contact today was a foul then. 

Basketball is an entirely different game.  As rocket said it is more of a cross between rugby, hockey and basketball. 

[wadesworld]

My thought on why Curry and Klay aren't playing well? And even LeBron shooting a low percentage? The refs let players play more physical defense in the Playoffs and especially in the Finals. The Cavs are beating them the heck up off the ball and making them catch it so far from the basket.

Having said that, there are still obviously calls made. What I don't get is how they let absolutely anything go when going for rebounds. Cleveland has realized that and been much more aggressive on the boards, but it's not like they're calling it on GSW and not on the Cavs. Thompson, Love, LeBron, and Kyrie all just push, pull, grab, do anything they can to get the boards and they're letting both teams do that as much as they want.

[tower912]

I'm talking about the Pistons, the Knicks, the Bulls.

[wadesworld]

That is one problem I will always have with any ref in any sport. When you blow an obvious call don't go and compound it by T'ing up a bench that gets upset by it (especially when the clock reads 0:00.00 and they can get up and head to the locker room anyway).

[GGGG]

Except that is patently false.  People always say that.  I watched a lot of NBA basketball a generation ago.  Go back and watch the 1984 finals (I rewatched game 7 today to see if I was misremembering).  There is far far less contact.  The NBA players of today would foul out within the first period. 

We remember more contact, because when they wanted to foul you it was going to be a very hard contact foul (would be a flagrant today), but overall far less contact.

Normal contact today was a foul then. 

Basketball is an entirely different game.  As rocket said it is more of a cross between rugby, hockey and basketball. 

Then don't watch it. I really don't care and I find your observations largely off base anyway.