MUScoop

Previous coach doesn't make NIT, leaves crap burger for new coach

Misaligned recruits, no point guard

Kids transfer or don't follow through on their commitments

New coach has tough first season, but not unexpected

New coach has ONE recruiting class thus far, and it was a great recruiting class

New coach has improved second season both in conference and overall.  Several top 50 RPI wins

FRESHMEN played 48.3% of all minutes on this team.  Think about that for a second.

Yet it is new coach's fault?

What on earth am I missing?  The way some of you describe, the previous coach left here going to the NCAA tournament and massive talent on the team.  WRONG. 

I don't think you're missing anything.

Many of us - me included - hoped we'd do better this year.  But I see the youth of both the coach and the team, and can't say I am terribly surprised at the outcome.  I see Wojo taking a long-term view at rebuilding the program, favoring players who fit his vision over quick-fixes...which means slow, steady improvement.

IMHO, we won't have a true picture of Wojo's abilities for another year or two.  For now, I am cautiously optimistic - thrilled with Wojo's ability to draw top-flight recruits, and waiting to see on his ability to fit the pieces together.

Chico's


Agree on everything with exception of ONE great recruiting class. It was a very good one but the foundation of what made that class great likely is gone. Of the remaining three HC has a chance to be an upper end D1 player, Carter a backup/role player and incomplete at best on kid from MN.

This season had quality wins but also had awful losses as well. This team mightget better next season. Wojo can up the level of competition (some of the 20 wins were against lower level teams).
Then again Henry Ellenson could go pro, the team might not improve with another season of experience, and the incoming player might not offer as much as MU hopes. Is this the new normal for Marquette?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:28:08 AM
Previous coach doesn't make NIT, leaves crap burger for new coach

Misaligned recruits, no point guard

Kids transfer or don't follow through on their commitments

New coach has tough first season, but not unexpected

New coach has ONE recruiting class thus far, and it was a great recruiting class

New coach has improved second season both in conference and overall.  Several top 50 RPI wins

Yet it is new coach's fault?

What on earth am I missing?  The way some of you describe, the previous coach left here going to the NCAA tournament and massive talent on the team.  WRONG.

Utterly nothing.

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 10:38:40 AM
Chico's


Agree on everything with exception of ONE great recruiting class. It was a very good one but the foundation of what made that class great likely is gone. Of the remaining three HC has a chance to be an upper end D1 player, Carter a backup/role player and incomplete at best on kid from MN.

Carter is better than a backup/role player. It's like some people don't think freshmen improve.

Quote from: Aughnanure on March 14, 2016, 10:41:35 AM
Utterly nothing.

I added one more....Freshman played 48.3% of all minutes.   I'd be hard pressed to find many teams in the country that come close to that.

I don't place this entirely on Wojo. Guessing I'm not the target demographic of this thread. This is on scheduling, which is partially Wojo but also in large part others.

I do feel that a 20-win Marquette team should be playing postseason basketball. There should never be an exception to that. I feel the team improved over the course of the year, but feel that our development may have actually been stunted by playing such a weak schedule in December that had us ill-prepared for Big East play. Our 2-5 start is a clear indicator of that.

Wojo can recruit and develop talent. The jury is out on whether he can coach. I'm not at all ready to cut ties this early. I'd like to see postseason play next year (NIT or NCAA) and us back to competing for the top-half of the league and NCAA berths no later than 2017-18. If that doesn't happen, it's time to break out the short list.

Yes, I'm disappointed but realize BW left the program in worse shape than when he took it over.  Wojo has not done the JUCO quick fix approach.  This team was one game away from at least making the NIT.  Marquette fans have been spoiled over the years and I include myself in that group.  The numbers indicate an upward trend.  The lose of Henry in the coming season will be tough but it may be off set by player development and the incoming recruits. 

Get a junkyard dog type forward and Marquette will be fine.  Former Hamilton High School forward, Elgin Cook was named the MVP for the PAC 12 Tournament.  He was a JUCO who has had two outstanding seasons with the Oregon Ducks.  That's the kind of recruit Marquette needs to bring in -- a 6-6 player with a street fighter's approach to the game.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 14, 2016, 10:44:08 AM
I don't place this entirely on Wojo. Guessing I'm not the target demographic of this thread. This is on scheduling, which is partially Wojo but also in large part others.

I do feel that a 20-win Marquette team should be playing postseason basketball. There should never be an exception to that. I feel the team improved over the course of the year, but feel that our development may have actually been stunted by playing such a weak schedule in December that had us ill-prepared for Big East play. Our 2-5 start is a clear indicator of that.

Wojo can recruit and develop talent. The jury is out on whether he can coach. I'm not at all ready to cut ties this early. I'd like to see postseason play next year (NIT or NCAA) and us back to competing for the top-half of the league and NCAA berths no later than 2017-18. If that doesn't happen, it's time to break out the short list.

Not sure yet about his recruiting, Hauser is nice get this year and Howard might be as well, time will tell on that one but he has not signed a big yet for next year, which will give them a chance to be in the top half of the Big East.  Watching Hall, X, and Villy, the one thing sticks out in my mind is how tough and physical they are.
Not sure the recruits he got or is getting are in that category.  He has starting spot open for somebody, just has to find that grad student or JC kid that has some experience, or Fernando or Young, but board quiet on these kids right now.

Wojo's game plans were totally uncreative at best. he never threw any wrinkles at teams, very rarely changed things up in game...does he even draw up plays on the sidelines during time outs?? Whenever they would show "in the huddle" with Wojo, all you'd hear him say was "keep fighting, keep fighting etc", you never saw him with a clipboard actually designing plays. Buzz and TC always always threw a wrinkle into things depending on the opponent...Two examples that stood out to me were when TC put Chris Grimm on Alando Tucker in a game vs UW at the BC...stroke of genius, it worked out beautifully. Then who will ever forget Buzz putting Jimmy Butler on Tu Holloway in the NCAA tourney vs. Xavier in 2011...shut him down...ball game.

Wojo has done NONE of that. heck, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he didn't at least switch into a zone vs. Nova at the BC, they were getting killed off the dribble...what would t hurt to try it...couldn't have been any worse.

His offense...Henry spent way to much time out at the top of the key setting picks etc. That's not how a dominate big should be utilized...His ass should have been under the basket and stayed there. he never changed that up during the year either. I just see a whole lot of nothing from him right now...This is a coach that often times drew up plays for Coach K(Coach K himself said that), coached the US national team, and was highly regarded...he's been a good recruiter, we've seen that...but as a coach?? So far, i think a lot less than advertised IMO.

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 10:57:21 AM


Wojo has done NONE of that. heck, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he didn't at least switch into a zone vs. Nova at the BC, they were getting killed off the dribble...what would t hurt to try it...couldn't have been any worse.

Not to ruin your post, but Wojo did switch into a 2-3 zone against Nova in the second half to take away the dunking at will by Ochefu when Luke got his 4th.  They hit a bunch of jump shots and we had to switch out it.  They were just better than us.

No.   Crean was nearly incapable of an in-game adjustment.    And a lot of whether or not a coach can create an in-game adjustment is based on what the team has practiced.    And if you have a team as young as this one, so much time is spent on the base offense and defense that there isn't that much time to thrown on plan b's.    Finally, Bo did OK without ever making an in game adjustment. 

I think part of the impatience with Woj comes from the fact that Buzz didn't make the tourney in his final year either.....so the long NCAA drought is amplified on the current coach.  I'm still standing with "the process" but not seeing MU's name pop yesterday (again) is getting a bit tiring.  If we're sitting on the outside looking in again come next Selection Sunday (of which I fully expect with the exit of Henry) it's gonna get ugly around here

The depth of the program when Buzz left cannot be overstated.  Unless you're Duke or Kentucky, you don't rebuild in one season.

On the other hand, Crean was able to take 3 frosh (and Steve Novak, of course) to a NCAA bid.  I think there's room for disappointment, but on the whole, it was a year-one of a rebuild.

Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2016, 11:07:58 AM
No.   Crean was nearly incapable of an in-game adjustment.    And a lot of whether or not a coach can create an in-game adjustment is based on what the team has practiced.    And if you have a team as young as this one, so much time is spent on the base offense and defense that there isn't that much time to thrown on plan b's.    Finally, Bo did OK without ever making an in game adjustment.

The team played zone almost the entire year last year...with the same personnel as this year...using it more(and perhaps even as the base D) would have been a way to minimize Luke's fouling issues. Then there's also the idea of bringing Luke off the bench, to save his fouls so to speak. Buzz did that with Davante, and that worked out typically very well.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:28:08 AM
Previous coach doesn't make NIT, leaves crap burger for new coach

Previous coach left behind 5 RSCI top 100 players, 3 of whom were top 60 and 4 of whom were underclassmen.

Previous coach went to an historically bad program with no tradition and much worse players than the ones he left behind.

Previous coach turned his entire roster over in two years, finished in the ACC's first division and made the NIT.

Present coach, with 3 remaining top 100 (including a top 60 and a top 30) players finished under .500 and in 7th place in the 10 team Big East.


What on earth am I missing?

Well, we'll see how he does over the next two years, I don't know.  What I do know is the pants pissing panic folks putting this on the current coach, sure have an enormous blind spot about what the last coach left and bailed on.  The same crowd is also apparently missing who played for us this year, the improvement the team made, etc. 

Lots of ways to rebuild a program, we are going about it with depth and long term, non quick fix approach (i.e. massive roster changes every two years).  That process takes longer than the quick fix process, I'm not sure why MU educated fans don't comprehend this....I really don't.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:28:08 AM
Previous coach doesn't make NIT, leaves crap burger for new coach. 

Misaligned recruits, no point guard

Kids transfer or don't follow through on their commitments

New coach has tough first season, but not unexpected

New coach has ONE recruiting class thus far, and it was a great recruiting class

New coach has improved second season both in conference and overall.  Several top 50 RPI wins

FRESHMEN played 48.3% of all minutes on this team.  Think about that for a second.

Yet it is new coach's fault?

What on earth am I missing?  The way some of you describe, the previous coach left here going to the NCAA tournament and massive talent on the team.  WRONG.

Buzz left some players and had some good players coming in, Wojo was unable to convince the two prize incoming recruits to stay on board, convinced only 1 in general and nudged Burton out the door.  Wojo was not able to smooth over the transition.  Part of that crap burger is on WOJO.

No point guard in year 1, only 1 point guard in year two.  Wojo wanting to turn Haanif into a point guard early on when he was not ready is on WOJO.

Tough first season was expected.

New coach has 2 recruiting years, 1 being very good but IF the prize recruit of that great recruiting class leaves after one year to be a NBA lottery pick, not making any post season tournament this year is considered a huge disappointment.  Now IF that prize recruit leaves than that very good recruiting class is not so "great".

New coach has improved second season with one of the worst non-conference schedules one could create.  Add to that the number of blowouts we endured, not sniffing the NCAA or NIT and potentially our best player leaving for the NBA and its more of a downer than be overly excited about next year.

Freshmen played 48.3% of all minutes.  How many of those did HE play?  If he is one and done, no postseason, was it worth it?  Those minutes played by HE will be for nothing.  Also, I would argue JJJ and Duane deserved more minutes in general and playing time was a little mismanaged.  That they were coming off the bench for a decent chunk of the year instead of starting and providing leadership was again more mismanagement on a part of WOJO.

So is it the new coaches fault?  Yes I have to say that he takes a lot of the blame since it is his program.  Hopefully he learns and we reach the levels of success from our last 2 coaches.  A Final Four, Sweet 16 and an Elite 8 appearance.  Right now I guess everyone is praying for an NIT berth for next year.

Quote from: mufanatic on March 14, 2016, 11:27:30 AM
Buzz left some players and had some good players coming in, Wojo was unable to convince the two prize incoming recruits to stay on board, convinced only 1 in general and nudged Burton out the door.  Wojo was not able to smooth over the transition.  Part of that crap burger is on WOJO.

No point guard in year 1, only 1 point guard in year two.  Wojo wanting to turn Haanif into a point guard early on when he was not ready is on WOJO.

Tough first season was expected.

New coach has 2 recruiting years, 1 being very good but IF the prize recruit of that great recruiting class leaves after one year to be a NBA lottery pick, not making any post season tournament this year is considered a huge disappointment.  Now IF that prize recruit leaves than that very good recruiting class is not so "great".

New coach has improved second season with one of the worst non-conference schedules one could create.  Add to that the number of blowouts we endured, not sniffing the NCAA or NIT and potentially our best player leaving for the NBA and its more of a downer than be overly excited about next year.

Freshmen played 48.3% of all minutes.  How many of those did HE play?  If he is one and done, no postseason, was it worth it?  Those minutes played by HE will be for nothing.  Also, I would argue JJJ and Duane deserved more minutes in general and playing time was a little mismanaged.  That they were coming off the bench for a decent chunk of the year instead of starting and providing leadership was again more mismanagement on a part of WOJO.

So is it the new coaches fault?  Yes I have to say that he takes a lot of the blame since it is his program.  Hopefully he learns and we reach the levels of success from our last 2 coaches.  A Final Four, Sweet 16 and an Elite 8 appearance.  Right now I guess everyone is praying for an NIT berth for next year.

Oh please....kids commit to a school mostly because of the coach and the relationship they have with the recruiter.  So a new coach couldn't convince a couple of recruits he had no relationship to play?  Give me a break.

We also improved in the Big East conference, you somehow left that off.

The players Buzz left us, PG deficient which is the MOST important position in college basketball.  I don't think you understand the level of talent Buzz left behind.  In terms of the great recruits that Wojo didn't convince to come here, one averaged 1.7 points per game this year....for a guy named Buzz.

Sorry, those minutes played by HE are not for nothing.  We landed a very good recruit, that's a good thing for a coach to be able to say to land future very good recruits.  Let me guess, if HE didn't play a bunch of minutes you would have given Wojo a pass?  LOL

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 11:21:58 AM
Previous coach left behind 5 RSCI top 100 players, 3 of whom were top 60 and 4 of whom were underclassmen.

Previous coach went to an historically bad program with no tradition and much worse players than the ones he left behind.

Previous coach turned his entire roster over in two years, finished in the ACC's first division and made the NIT.

Present coach, with 3 remaining top 100 (including a top 60 and a top 30) players finished under .500 and in 7th place in the 10 team Big East.


What on earth am I missing?

For starters, the fact that three years later, RSCI rankings are meaningless.

I mean, I get the disappointment of this season. I share it. But judging results on recruiting rankings while not considering other factors seems a bit silly.

Whoever said Carter is a backup is nuts, per statistics he had 3rd best PG season at Marquette in last 15 years.

He will grow and improve...not sure he will finish as best ever but he will be a very good PG at MU barring injury

Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2016, 11:37:42 AM
For starters, the fact that three years later, RSCI rankings are meaningless.

I mean, I get the disappointment of this season. I share it. But judging results on recruiting rankings while not considering other factors seems a bit silly.

Point is the "cupboard bare" dumpster fire excuse is much more legit for Buzz than for Wojo. And so is the sorry state of the "Program". None of that stopped Buzz.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2016, 11:37:42 AM
For starters, the fact that three years later, RSCI rankings are meaningless.

I mean, I get the disappointment of this season. I share it. But judging results on recruiting rankings while not considering other factors seems a bit silly.

Exactly.  Well said.   

For the same reason Victor Oladipo wasn't in the RSCI, nor a guy named Dwyane Wade (learn to spell our greatest player ever Lenny)...like preseason rankings, the recruiting rankings are so so, but if 3 years later you can't see the talent isn't there, those recruiting rankings are worth very little except to defend a jilted lover who went to another school and left our program in worse shape than when he came.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:28:08 AM
Previous coach doesn't make NIT, leaves crap burger for new coach

Misaligned recruits, no point guard

Kids transfer or don't follow through on their commitments

New coach has tough first season, but not unexpected

New coach has ONE recruiting class thus far, and it was a great recruiting class

New coach has improved second season both in conference and overall.  Several top 50 RPI wins

FRESHMEN played 48.3% of all minutes on this team.  Think about that for a second.

Yet it is new coach's fault?

What on earth am I missing?  The way some of you describe, the previous coach left here going to the NCAA tournament and massive talent on the team.  WRONG.

Nothing.  You've pretty much nailed it.  Too much impatience in today's world.

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 10:38:40 AM
Chico's


Agree on everything with exception of ONE great recruiting class. It was a very good one but the foundation of what made that class great likely is gone. Of the remaining three HC has a chance to be an upper end D1 player, Carter a backup/role player and incomplete at best on kid from MN.

Haani and Traci strongly disagree with you. As do most people with eyes.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 14, 2016, 11:46:08 AM
Nothing.  You've pretty much nailed it.  Too much impatience in today's world.

I agree with Pakuni and Hards in the same thread.   We might want to lock this one up, pin it to the top for posterity sake.

;D

Quote from: mu03eng on March 14, 2016, 11:39:26 AM
Whoever said Carter is a backup is nuts, per statistics he had 3rd best PG season at Marquette in last 15 years.

He will grow and improve...not sure he will finish as best ever but he will be a very good PG at MU barring injury

In all fairness isn't this stat kind of over blown? I mean it's basically just saying he wasn't as good as James and Diener, but beyond those two we've only had Cadougan and Wilson as PGs in the last 15 years so is Carter the 3rd worst or the 3rd best?

Quote from: JakeBarnes on March 14, 2016, 11:47:08 AM
Haani and Traci strongly disagree with you. As do most people with eyes.

He also forgot Matt Heldt lol

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 11:34:42 AM
Oh please....kids commit to a school mostly because of the coach and the relationship they have with the recruiter.  So a new coach couldn't convince a couple of recruits he had no relationship to play?  Give me a break.

We also improved in the Big East conference, you somehow left that off.

The players Buzz left us, PG deficient which is the MOST important position in college basketball.  I don't think you understand the level of talent Buzz left behind.  In terms of the great recruits that Wojo didn't convince to come here, one averaged 1.7 points per game this year....for a guy named Buzz.

Sorry, those minutes played by HE are not for nothing.  We landed a very good recruit, that's a good thing for a coach to be able to say to land future very good recruits.  Let me guess, if HE didn't play a bunch of minutes you would have given Wojo a pass?  LOL

I didn't leave anything off, I said we improved the second year.  A 4-1 record against Depaul and St. Johns should be applauded and 0-7 against the top 3 in games that were more blowouts than not should be ignored.  I know, I know, we beat Providence twice.  Definitely our two best conference wins of the year.   

WOJO should more than anyone know the value of a PG.  He and the entire staff are primarily point guards.  He recruited, 1 point guard in 2 years and tried to convert a wing into a point guard that was severely turnover prone.  Its a head scratcher.  That is again on WOJO.

I understand that Buzz left JJJ, Fisher and Duane and they were 3 of our top 5 players.  All 3 are extremely talented.  Deonte Burton was extremely talented.  Sandy Cohen is extremely talented.  I get it, it wasn't ideal what he left behind but it wasn't awful like you want to believe. 

Finally I was referencing Marial Shayok and Ahmed Hill.  Shayok is getting minutes for number 1 seed Virginia and Hill unfortunately tore his patella tendon and redshirted this year.  WOJO would have been thrilled to have kept both of them.  I don't blame him just saying.

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 10:57:21 AM
Wojo's game plans were totally uncreative at best. he never threw any wrinkles at teams, very rarely changed things up in game...does he even draw up plays on the sidelines during time outs?? Whenever they would show "in the huddle" with Wojo, all you'd hear him say was "keep fighting, keep fighting etc", you never saw him with a clipboard actually designing plays. Buzz and TC always always threw a wrinkle into things depending on the opponent...Two examples that stood out to me were when TC put Chris Grimm on Alando Tucker in a game vs UW at the BC...stroke of genius, it worked out beautifully. Then who will ever forget Buzz putting Jimmy Butler on Tu Holloway in the NCAA tourney vs. Xavier in 2011...shut him down...ball game.

Wojo has done NONE of that. heck, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why he didn't at least switch into a zone vs. Nova at the BC, they were getting killed off the dribble...what would t hurt to try it...couldn't have been any worse.

His offense...Henry spent way to much time out at the top of the key setting picks etc. That's not how a dominate big should be utilized...His ass should have been under the basket and stayed there. he never changed that up during the year either. I just see a whole lot of nothing from him right now...This is a coach that often times drew up plays for Coach K(Coach K himself said that), coached the US national team, and was highly regarded...he's been a good recruiter, we've seen that...but as a coach?? So far, i think a lot less than advertised IMO.

Guru, can you please explain the wrinkles you wanted to see? You keep using this phrase but it honestly seems like a buzz word that means nothing.

If you truly think Wojo doesn't draw up plays because of what you see on "In the huddle".....I don't know what to say. Did you see any other coaches drawing up plays during In the Huddle? Do you think maybe they purposefully don't show those because coaches don't want their strategies being broadcast?

So Grimm on Tucker and Butler on Holloway are wrinkles. Is that similar to Haani on Koenig and Sandy on Hayes when Wisconsin's star duo went 7-29 from the field? Seemed like a great coaching move. I thought the play at the end of the Georgetown game was a brilliant call as well.

So Wojo should have switched to zone against nova? You mean like how he did exactly that? But Nova started hitting jump shots so we were forced to switch back. Wojo wasn't out coached that game, that's just what happens when a top 5 team plays and NIT caliber team.

Have you seen Henry score any back to the basket buckets this season? I saw a few I think against cupcakes. The kid is big but he's a finesse player, not a banger. His offense is much better facing the basket. Could Wojo have done a better job developing Henry's post game? That's an argument I'll accept.

I know its easier to blame the coach than it is top blame the players, but the truth is, we weren't very good this season. NIT caliber team. Give them a year to grow up and they will be dancing (assuming Wojo can keep the band together).

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 14, 2016, 12:01:16 PM
In all fairness isn't this stat kind of over blown? I mean it's basically just saying he wasn't as good as James and Diener, but beyond those two we've only had Cadougan and Wilson as PGs in the last 15 years so is Carter the 3rd worst or the 3rd best?

He also forgot Matt Heldt lol

It says to me he's better than any point guard Buzz Williams ever brought in because Buzz didn't give a rip about point guards.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 14, 2016, 12:31:56 PM
Guru, can you please explain the wrinkles you wanted to see? You keep using this phrase but it honestly seems like a buzz word that means nothing.

If you truly think Wojo doesn't draw up plays because of what you see on "In the huddle".....I don't know what to say. Did you see any other coaches drawing up plays during In the Huddle? Do you think maybe they purposefully don't show those because coaches don't want their strategies being broadcast?

I can't believe he is still bringing the "in the huddle" nonsense up.  How many times does it have to be explained to him that FS1 and other outlets only show the rah-rah motivational stuff.  Goodness.  This has been explained to over and over again.

Quote from: HoopsterBC on March 14, 2016, 10:52:29 AM
Not sure yet about his recruiting, Hauser is nice get this year and Howard might be as well, time will tell on that one but he has not signed a big yet for next year, which will give them a chance to be in the top half of the Big East.  Watching Hall, X, and Villy, the one thing sticks out in my mind is how tough and physical they are.
Not sure the recruits he got or is getting are in that category.  He has starting spot open for somebody, just has to find that grad student or JC kid that has some experience, or Fernando or Young, but board quiet on these kids right now.

He landed Heldt, who was a top-150 big man. We have yet to see how he does as far as roster construction, but he can get players. Whether he gets the right players going forward, I'm not sure. Definitely needs to add toughness and interior grit.

I do think guys like Traci and Cheatham have the toughness and mental fortitude to stick in the Big East. But your point is well taken.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 11:42:04 AM
Point is the "cupboard bare" dumpster fire excuse is much more legit for Buzz than for Wojo. And so is the sorry state of the "Program". None of that stopped Buzz.

I think each coach's success to date is illustrative of their different philosophies.
Buzz, as he did at MU, has rebuilt VaTech in no small measure through the transfer market. His top two scorers are transfers (and his third-leading scorer, fwiw, committed to the previous coach).

Wojo, on the other hand, has rebuilt almost exclusively through high schoolers (went after a couple of grad transfers, didn't get them), foregoing short-term gains in hopes of longer-term success. The result has been some serious growing pains and disappointing finishes, but also reason for hope. Honestly, I think MU is better positioned for long-term success than the Hokies.

Buzz has done a nice job and deserves plenty of credit. But please shoot me the day I consider Marquette getting into the NIT field a big success.  Heck, it's not really a big success at VaTech. Seth Greenberg made four straight NITs and that got him fired.

Quote from: mufanatic on March 14, 2016, 12:02:18 PM
WOJO should more than anyone know the value of a PG.  He and the entire staff are primarily point guards.  He recruited, 1 point guard in 2 years and tried to convert a wing into a point guard that was severely turnover prone.  Its a head scratcher.  That is again on WOJO.

?-(

He's only had one recruiting class. So its 1 PG in 1 year. Unless you count 2014, which you really shouldn't because there were NO high major or mid major caliber PGs left to recruit from the HS or JUCO ranks. But if you do count 2014 you should add Matt Carlino, a PG grad transfer, so it would be 2 PGs in 2 years. You might even want to call it 2 PGs in 1 year because Wojo also recruited Nick Noskowiak for 2015, he just went off the deep end. Oh and I forgot Andrew Rowsey, another PG. So 3 PGs in 1 year. He's also recruiting Markus Howard for 2016.

I think Wojo knows the value of a good PG. Silly argument.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2016, 12:37:22 PM
I think each coach's success to date is illustrative of their different philosophies.
Buzz, as he did at MU, has rebuilt VaTech in no small measure through the transfer market. His top two scorers are transfers (and his third-leading scorer, fwiw, committed to the previous coach).

Wojo, on the other hand, has rebuilt almost exclusively through high schoolers (went after a couple of grad transfers, didn't get them), foregoing short-term gains in hopes of longer-term success. The result has been some serious growing pains and disappointing finishes, but also reason for hope. Honestly, I think MU is better positioned for long-term success than the Hokies.

Buzz has done a nice job and deserves plenty of credit. But please shoot me the day I consider Marquette getting into the NIT field a big success.  Heck, it's not really a big success at VaTech. Seth Greenberg made four straight NITs and that got him fired.

Valid post.  I must admit I compare what is happening at Va Tech to Marquette this season for the obvious reasons.  I know Wojo can recruit.  It seems like he can develop players.  It is the X and O stuff that has me concerned.  Will try to stay optimistic.

Here's something else that I wonder about Wojo....he very rarely talks...and what i mean by that is, outside of his radio show, when does he ever give interviews of any kind that are of any kind of substanance?? Buzz used to do that and TC too. You never hear any of the players comment on their relationship with Wojo the way they used to about Buzz. Is he friends with them?? He has everything on lock down with the MU program these days, so it's hard to learn anything. He's definitely not much a promoter of the program either...which I think might be part of the reason the student and overall fan attendance is waining. With TC and Buzz, the students especially felt "connected" to the team and the program, I don't think they do with Wojo.

Buzz took short term approach at Va Tech, same as he's always done.  He's good at taking guys already that are good, already have a man's body, and doing well with that approach.  Short term fixes.  Buzz wasn't very good with the high schoolers (with a few exceptions)....if a player has a few years under his belt in the JUCO or transfers from other schools, then he does well.  He should, they are more ready made.


MU is playing the long game, and that takes longer.  This isn't nuclear science.   

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 12:45:46 PM
Is he friends with them?

No. He's their coach. They love and respect him. Rewatch any video with Wojo and the team or go talk to the players yourself.

Quote from: mufanatic on March 14, 2016, 12:02:18 PM
I didn't leave anything off, I said we improved the second year.  A 4-1 record against Depaul and St. Johns should be applauded and 0-7 against the top 3 in games that were more blowouts than not should be ignored.  I know, I know, we beat Providence twice.  Definitely our two best conference wins of the year.   

WOJO should more than anyone know the value of a PG.  He and the entire staff are primarily point guards.  He recruited, 1 point guard in 2 years and tried to convert a wing into a point guard that was severely turnover prone.  Its a head scratcher.  That is again on WOJO.

I understand that Buzz left JJJ, Fisher and Duane and they were 3 of our top 5 players.  All 3 are extremely talented.  Deonte Burton was extremely talented.  Sandy Cohen is extremely talented.  I get it, it wasn't ideal what he left behind but it wasn't awful like you want to believe. 

Finally I was referencing Marial Shayok and Ahmed Hill.  Shayok is getting minutes for number 1 seed Virginia and Hill unfortunately tore his patella tendon and redshirted this year.  WOJO would have been thrilled to have kept both of them.  I don't blame him just saying.

Sorry, but I had to laugh when you said Cohen is extremely talented.  He's a decent player, maybe turns into a good player.  Burton was a head case.  Duane, yes he is very talented and still an enigma...good Duane and bad Duane.  Fischer is exactly what I told you guys he was when he came over from IU...he's a blue collar guy, good player, but never going to be great.  JJJ...so much talent, getting better....needs to commit to defense....is he still at MU next season?

I didn't say what was left behind was awful, I said it was miscast and bad fits in terms of pieces.  We don't have the right players in the right positions.

Wojo has tried to recruit point guards, he didn't get them all....probably not a surprise since we basically said point guards don't mean much at MU the last 6 years that we haven't exactly had a point guard rep at this university since Crean left.

How is losing to Xavier by 8 points twice, a blowout?  Including one where we had the lead with less than 3 minutes on the road?  Five teams from this conference made the NCAA tournament, we won three games against those five teams.  We lost two where we were in it to the very end.  Yup, we got blown out by Seton Hall and Villanova.  And?

I agree with you that Wojo would have been thrilled to have both of those guys, just as Buzz would have been thrilled to have Tyshawn Taylor when Crean left.  Just didn't happen.

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 12:45:46 PM
Here's something else that I wonder about Wojo....he very rarely talks...and what i mean by that is, outside of his radio show, when does he ever give interviews of any kind that are of any kind of substanance?? Buzz used to do that and TC too. You never hear any of the players comment on their relationship with Wojo the way they used to about Buzz. Is he friends with them?? He has everything on lock down with the MU program these days, so it's hard to learn anything. He's definitely not much a promoter of the program either...which I think might be part of the reason the student and overall fan attendance is waining. With TC and Buzz, the students especially felt "connected" to the team and the program, I don't think they do with Wojo.

None of this is quite true.
Wojo does all the stuff his predecessors have done, maybe more. The summer BBQ. Handing out doughnuts to students waiting to get in the BC.  Did the National Marquette Day pep rally. Tweets to students/fans pretty consistently. Has done multiple meet-and-greets at the spirit shop.
What more are you expecting? I mean, it's good and important he does that stuff, but it's all secondary to coaching and recruiting.

As for whether his players like him, I expect we'll see fewer transfers among Wojo's recruits than we saw under the previous two coaching staffs.

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 12:45:46 PM
Here's something else that I wonder about Wojo....he very rarely talks...and what i mean by that is, outside of his radio show, when does he ever give interviews of any kind that are of any kind of substanance?? Buzz used to do that and TC too. You never hear any of the players comment on their relationship with Wojo the way they used to about Buzz. Is he friends with them?? He has everything on lock down with the MU program these days, so it's hard to learn anything. He's definitely not much a promoter of the program either...which I think might be part of the reason the student and overall fan attendance is waining. With TC and Buzz, the students especially felt "connected" to the team and the program, I don't think they do with Wojo.

Your last sentence may be valid.  We worked hard my last year at MU in the athletic department to connect Tom to the students and alumni.  I asked him to do stuff that Deane didn't want to do, but Tom said yes to everything I asked him to do.  Nothing was too small...it could have been a meeting with 20 students, he would do it.   I don't know if Wojo is doing that or not, he's coming from a school where excitement is built in at Duke and isn't needed.  So that might be foreign to him.  I would suggest the marketing guys at MU and the AD build a good will tour of sorts, get him out as much as he can, and that includes the students.   But at the end of the day, winning cures a lot of this.

As far as the players commenting about the coaches, that doesn't bother me one iota.  Coach doesn't need to be their friend, he needs to be their coach, mentor, etc. 

IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz, LWilliams, Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Edit: Not Cottingham.  So many ADs to remember.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz,

• Cottingham,

Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Huh.  I think you meant Larry Wiiliams.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

No - he owns the trajectory & magnitude of the improvement this year and in the future, but not the majority of the blame for where we are today.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 11:21:58 AMPrevious coach left behind 5 RSCI top 100 players, 3 of whom were top 60 and 4 of whom were underclassmen.

Previous coach went to an historically bad program with no tradition and much worse players than the ones he left behind.

Previous coach turned his entire roster over in two years, finished in the ACC's first division and made the NIT.

Present coach, with 3 remaining top 100 (including a top 60 and a top 30) players finished under .500 and in 7th place in the 10 team Big East.

What on earth am I missing?

How about the fact that the past is the past.

We're not the Marquette of 1977. Or 2003. Or 2013.

Buzz Williams did some great things while he was here. But he's not here anymore.  He's coaching at another school, one that has no ties to Marquette whatsoever, in another state, in another conference.

You don't have to be happy with the state of things. I'm not. But I accept it — and think Wojo is on the right track. That doesn't mean he has nothing to prove. Just the opposite. But from what I've seen so far, I'm encouraged.

Anyone else is welcome to remain stuck in the past, deny reality or disagree with my outlook.

If Wojo is here for 7+ years, the long term approach makes sense.

If he's using Marquette as a spring board, I think we'd all agree that we just assume hurry up and win.

Hopefully by 2020, Wojo is still our coach and we are sitting on 3-4 straight NCAAs.

Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 14, 2016, 01:28:36 PM
No - he owns the trajectory & magnitude of the improvement this year and in the future, but not the majority of the blame for where we are today.

Agreed.  For next year's failure, Wojo's blame% goes to about 60-70.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 02:18:48 PM
Agreed.  For next year's failure, Wojo's blame% goes to about 60-70.

What has to happen in order for next season to be a success, NCAA or bust?

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 14, 2016, 12:01:16 PM
In all fairness isn't this stat kind of over blown? I mean it's basically just saying he wasn't as good as James and Diener, but beyond those two we've only had Cadougan and Wilson as PGs in the last 15 years so is Carter the 3rd worst or the 3rd best?

Metric ranked individual seasons, so Carters season was 3rd best of all seasons last 15 years(that's how I remembered it)

Turns out it was actually 4th best behind two seasons of Diener and one of DJ. Pretty impressive stuff.

http://painttouches.com/2016/03/02/measuring-traci-carters-impact/ (http://painttouches.com/2016/03/02/measuring-traci-carters-impact/)

Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on March 14, 2016, 02:23:53 PM
What has to happen in order for next season to be a success, NCAA or bust?

NCAA or bust for sure

If stats is what gets everyone excited than Carter improved on assist-turnover as season progressed. I have watched a lot of basketball this season and he would not get off the bunch at 95% of the top 50 schools. Just because he better than other options does not make him a PG to build a team around. Obviously with Wojo chasing Howard he does not believe Carter is guy for the future.

Honestly, know I do if Wojo can coach or not, but my guess is that he knows he needs major upgrade at PG for team to get better.  I hope he lands Howard and this Carter being a stud conversation can slow down.

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 02:32:05 PM
Obviously with Wojo chasing Howard he does not believe Carter is guy for the future.

I wouldn't say that. PG is the most important position and getting one every year is not a bad thing. Howard is a superior scorer and Traci is a better floor general IMHO. I think both will see a lot of time should Howard end up here. I think you will see a lot of lineups with both of them on the floor together.

Quote from: Waldo Jeffers on March 14, 2016, 02:23:53 PM
What has to happen in order for next season to be a success, NCAA or bust?

For a new coach .. 3rd year .. I'll go for .. NIT home game is the bare minimum.  That'll be a D+, but passing grade.   Marquette spends too damn much money on basketball not to be in the top ~100 teams every single year.

I think the NIT is a coin flip if (when) Henry leaves.  Hope that's super wrong.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 02:42:36 PM
For a new coach .. 3rd year .. I'll go for .. NIT home game is the bare minimum.  That'll be a D+, but passing grade.   Marquette spends too damn much money on basketball not to be in the top ~100 teams every single year.

I think the NIT is a coin flip if (when) Henry leaves.  Hope that's super wrong.

That's still falling awfully far for this program.....4 years with only an NIT bid to show for it....who are we Northwestern???

TAMU

We definitely look at talent differently. Carter does not have an eye for the position like a tier one PG and he cannot score. By not having the eye, I mean knowing where to hit a guy with a pass. That is a born skill and he does not have it. A great field general PG always makes the right pass and always to where the ball should be passed to. Carter sees the pass at times, but seldom hits the mark. IMO he is light years away from being a PG on a top level team.

He dribbles to hoop with no idea of what do next, dribbles too much and if not dribbling too much he picks up the dribble too quickly. I think everyone out here has just watched HORRIBLE PG for so long you forget what a very good or great one looks like.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 02:18:48 PM
Agreed.  For next year's failure, Wojo's blame% goes to about 60-70.

Am I reading this Right.......this is your prediction?

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 02:48:04 PM
TAMU

We definitely look at talent differently. Carter does not have an eye for the position like a tier one PG and he cannot score. By not having the eye, I mean knowing where to hit a guy with a pass. That is a born skill and he does not have it. A great field general PG always makes the right pass and always to where the ball should be passed to. Carter sees the pass at times, but seldom hits the mark. IMO he is light years away from being a PG on a top level team.

He dribbles to hoop with no idea of what do next, dribbles too much and if not dribbling too much he picks up the dribble too quickly. I think everyone out here has just watched HORRIBLE PG for so long you forget what a very good or great one looks like.

You did see the pass he delivered to Fischer to win the Georgetown game yes? Or the baseline pass through the 2-3 zone against Xavier in the Big East? Or how he scored down low against Butler and Georgetown? Yes?

He will be very good, he significantly improved through the season and most improvement happens between frosh and sophomore years

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 02:48:04 PM
TAMU

We definitely look at talent differently. Carter does not have an eye for the position like a tier one PG and he cannot score. By not having the eye, I mean knowing where to hit a guy with a pass. That is a born skill and he does not have it. A great field general PG always makes the right pass and always to where the ball should be passed to. Carter sees the pass at times, but seldom hits the mark. IMO he is light years away from being a PG on a top level team.

He dribbles to hoop with no idea of what do next, dribbles too much and if not dribbling too much he picks up the dribble too quickly. I think everyone out here has just watched HORRIBLE PG for so long you forget what a very good or great one looks like.

Carter has made his share of mistakes but I think your estimates on Carter's success rate in passing are way off. I've seen Carter make beautiful passes that most freshmen couldn't dream of making. mu03eng listed some of the highlights.

Carter wasn't a good scorer, but he wasn't a horrible one either. I think he was asked to do more than he was capable of in his first season, exposing some flaws in his game. I think he will be much more efficient going forward. He's already shown he can hit the longball, consistency will come with experience.

Carter's defense is also very good for a freshman. He was our best on ball defender this season and has very active hands. Defense is hard to teach freshman and Carter picked it up quickly.

The one mistake that I saw Carter constantly make, and you pointed it out, is picking up his dribble in no man's land. That's something he needs to work on but I'm confident that will be something addressed by Coach Wojo and company.

Freshmen should never be asked to run the point from day 1. Its too complicated and crucial of a position. I though Carter handled admirably. More experience and some better shooters around him and I think he will be a very good PG.

Quote from: Loose Cannon on March 14, 2016, 03:04:07 PM
Am I reading this Right.......this is your prediction?

Yeah I'd predict it's a coin flip on an NIT bid next year, Henry dependent. 


Our RPI was 106 this year.

Next year with Henry - RPI in the 40s, NCAAs

Without Henry - RPI in the 70s (if we learn from this year's scheduling debacle.  90s if we do not.)

Those are my expectations.  Hope they are exceeded.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz, LWilliams, Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Edit: Not Cottingham.  So many ADs to remember.

More like 75 percent on Lwilliams and Pilarz.   As AirForce said "Wanted to trade in dreadlocks for buzz cuts"

People seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth on the transfer issue.

This whole "Wojo is looking at the long term" tries to play down that Wojo knows how impactful transfers can be(Carlino), and went after them after last season.  So Wojo and staff contacted graduate transfers like Damion Lee and others, but ended up striking out.  People keep pushing the narrative of "looking at the long term" because he wasn't able to get guys in the short term (which, admittedly, is easier said than done.  But it's not somehow the 'wrong' way). 

If Wojo landed a guy like Lee and we were discussing our first round matchup later this week instead of sitting at home again, would people be complaining that Wojo wasn't thinking long term?  Nope.

Quote from: Small Orange Soda on March 14, 2016, 03:54:34 PM
People seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth on the transfer issue.

This whole "Wojo is looking at the long term" tries to play down that Wojo knows how impactful transfers can be(Carlino), and went after them after last season.  So Wojo and staff contacted graduate transfers like Damion Lee and others, but ended up striking out.  People keep pushing the narrative of "looking at the long term" because he wasn't able to get guys in the short term (which, admittedly, is easier said than done.  But it's not somehow the 'wrong' way). 

If Wojo landed a guy like Lee and we were discussing our first round matchup later this week instead of sitting at home again, would people be complaining that Wojo wasn't thinking long term?  Nope.

I do think there is a point to talking about a Wojo long term plan. His predecessor enjoyed putting together short term guys and then building a system around them. Wojo is working on getting "his guys" for "his system." I believe there is something to be said about a long term plan. Especially when we are in year 1 of that plan.

Quote from: Small Orange Soda on March 14, 2016, 03:54:34 PM
People seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth on the transfer issue.

This whole "Wojo is looking at the long term" tries to play down that Wojo knows how impactful transfers can be(Carlino), and went after them after last season.  So Wojo and staff contacted graduate transfers like Damion Lee and others, but ended up striking out.  People keep pushing the narrative of "looking at the long term" because he wasn't able to get guys in the short term (which, admittedly, is easier said than done.  But it's not somehow the 'wrong' way). 

If Wojo landed a guy like Lee and we were discussing our first round matchup later this week instead of sitting at home again, would people be complaining that Wojo wasn't thinking long term?  Nope.

I don't think that's the case. Wojo is building for the long term but still went after those grad transfers. Grad transfers are a great way to patch holes in a roster. Its just not good to rely on them. Wojo struck out on grad transfers but getting beat by UConn and Lousiville in a recruiting battle is hardly damning.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz, LWilliams, Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Edit: Not Cottingham.  So many ADs to remember.

No, this thread did not start to deflect blame from Wojo....or was this your interpretation of a conservative?  What if a liberal started it   :D

This thread was started to explain reality, which is EXACTLY what it did!  Young team, inherited players that were massively overrated according to their recruiting rankings and didn't fit the right pieces, young staff, etc, etc.   To answer your last question, yes there are many clowns here, especially in this thread, that in fact blame this coach, which is comical.  Of course there are clowns here that think the talent on this team is really good because some rankings somewhere said so....apparently his eyeballs don't work.

Quote from: mu03eng on March 14, 2016, 02:26:06 PM
NCAA or bust for sure

Depends on a lot of things.

Does JJJ stay?

What does HE do?

Any other changes?

I would say NIT or bust, and hopefully NCAA.  The goal should be NCAA next year, but it will depend on who is around as the roster may change a few times over.

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 04:41:08 PM
I don't think that's the case. Wojo is building for the long term but still went after those grad transfers. Grad transfers are a great way to patch holes in a roster. Its just not good to rely on them. Wojo struck out on grad transfers but getting beat by UConn and Lousiville in a recruiting battle is hardly damning.

I'm not saying it's damning, I'm saying let's call a spade a spade.  Wojo wisely went after grad transfers, and it didn't work out.  That isn't eschewing short term planning for long term.  That's just settling for Plan B.

Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 14, 2016, 03:53:34 PM

More like 75 percent on Lwilliams and Pilarz.   As AirForce said "Wanted to trade in dreadlocks for buzz cuts"

What led to LWilliams and Pilarz decisions?


https://www.youtube.com/v/gnJjJkyTrv8

https://www.youtube.com/v/FiwLe9wXgww

https://www.youtube.com/v/vjjjTPrZ-D0

http://www.anonymouseagle.com/2012/8/25/3267395/marquette-fires-assistant-coach-scott-monarch-suspends-buzz-williams

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/120247929.html

http://www.wisn.com/Six-Marquette-Basketball-Players-Cited-For-Being-In-Club-Underage/10935168

I could provide about 20 other links.  What is the administration supposed to do Nate?  Attaboy Buzz, good job by your team and staff?

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 02:48:04 PM
TAMU

We definitely look at talent differently. Carter does not have an eye for the position like a tier one PG and he cannot score. By not having the eye, I mean knowing where to hit a guy with a pass. That is a born skill and he does not have it. A great field general PG always makes the right pass and always to where the ball should be passed to. Carter sees the pass at times, but seldom hits the mark. IMO he is light years away from being a PG on a top level team.

He dribbles to hoop with no idea of what do next, dribbles too much and if not dribbling too much he picks up the dribble too quickly. I think everyone out here has just watched HORRIBLE PG for so long you forget what a very good or great one looks like.

This is spot on. I think carter has a role but if MU wants to get back to being a top 20 program nationally they need a top flight PG. Fortunately, I think the staff realizes this.

Also, with regards to grad transfers...I think we may now be on the end of getting "grad transferred" (as in losing a player) vs. acquiring a player lol

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 05:10:58 PM
What led to LWilliams and Pilarz decisions?

I could provide about 20 other links.  What is the administration supposed to do Nate?  Attaboy Buzz, good job by your team and staff?

They could have fired him...

Quote from: mu03eng on March 14, 2016, 02:46:03 PM
That's still falling awfully far for this program.....4 years with only an NIT bid to show for it....who are we Northwestern???

Unfortunately Northwestern is in a league where everyone knows they will be on ESPN and considered one of the major conferences forever. The Big East schools did a great job for the next best thing - a big TV deal to give us a shot to be considered a major conference, but the deal and a lack several good NCAA tournament wins could drop us to mid-major status. If that happens, we will be at a lower level permanently, which is why I am focused so hard on Seton Hall, Butler etc. this week.

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 11:17:50 AM
The team played zone almost the entire year last year...with the same personnel as this year...using it more(and perhaps even as the base D) would have been a way to minimize Luke's fouling issues. Then there's also the idea of bringing Luke off the bench, to save his fouls so to speak. Buzz did that with Davante, and that worked out typically very well.

Same personnel as last year? We had more new players than returning players.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 11:52:53 AM
I agree with Pakuni and Hards in the same thread.   We might want to lock this one up, pin it to the top for posterity sake.

;D

FWIW I'm a) thoroughly enjoying the CBB's Pakuni powers working together and b) appreciate you carrying the battle flag for rational thinking Chico's.  I hope you get to ski but i also hope you keep your keyboard by your wine glass for another day.

One subject I'm baffled on is the "Buzz would have..." line of argument.  Buzz was/is a very good coach but it is well established the administration and board of directors of the university didn't feel that his approach to running the program was in line with what the university wanted.  I for one am glad we have an administration that wants to take the clear high road AND have a successful program.  A couple of off years is worth that goal.  Is it a sure thing? No, but it's worth striving for.

Quote from: auburnmarquette on March 14, 2016, 06:38:57 PM
Unfortunately Northwestern is in a league where everyone knows they will be on ESPN and considered one of the major conferences forever. The Big East schools did a great job for the next best thing - a big TV deal to give us a shot to be considered a major conference, but the deal and a lack several good NCAA tournament wins could drop us to mid-major status. If that happens, we will be at a lower level permanently, which is why I am focused so hard on Seton Hall, Butler etc. this week.

This is stupid. I agree the B10 has more cache than the Big East, but it is absolutely not a mid major conference. Stop listening to your Badger friends; they received an inferior education.

Big East is a major conference. If a player is deciding STRICTLY on TV deal, then yea, the B10 will win out. Clearly wasn't an issue for HE. Every school has a mix of benefits that it uniquely provides. Coach, League, Current Roster, Playing Syle, Location, Academics...

MU is fine in competing for top talent. If there was a systematic disadvantage to being a Big East team, Xavier and Villanova would be cinderellas for their making the tourney at all.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 03:38:42 PM
Yeah I'd predict it's a coin flip on an NIT bid next year, Henry dependent. 


Our RPI was 106 this year.

Next year with Henry - RPI in the 40s, NCAAs

Without Henry - RPI in the 70s (if we learn from this year's scheduling debacle.  90s if we do not.)

Those are my expectations.  Hope they are exceeded.

Thanks for your breakdown

Good god Chicos. All that powder (2-3 feet of fresh white stuff) and you are on the Scoop wireless spewing...

Dr.

I am a Chico's fan, but he is playing the younger crowd on here as entertainment. Respect his history in program big time and most of opinions, but he is pandering while on holiday.

Anyone with a brain knows the program is crossroads and little silver lining unless trying to create conversation. Chico's is good man and hope he enjoys the powder. Currently his comments are across the board and stoking the suckers out on scoop.

Quote from: Small Orange Soda on March 14, 2016, 03:54:34 PM
People seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth on the transfer issue.

This whole "Wojo is looking at the long term" tries to play down that Wojo knows how impactful transfers can be(Carlino), and went after them after last season.  So Wojo and staff contacted graduate transfers like Damion Lee and others, but ended up striking out.  People keep pushing the narrative of "looking at the long term" because he wasn't able to get guys in the short term (which, admittedly, is easier said than done.  But it's not somehow the 'wrong' way). 

If Wojo landed a guy like Lee and we were discussing our first round matchup later this week instead of sitting at home again, would people be complaining that Wojo wasn't thinking long term?  Nope.

Wojo wants to win and wants to win now, like any coach.  But he won't bring in just anyone to win.  He will take a grad transfer that can help, if said grad transfer fits the other criteria (which happen to include being a solid student and caring about academics... which is pretty much the case with a grad transfer). 

He was left with a mess and getting a grad transfer is obviously within what he will do in the short term to shore things up.  I think he'd even consider the right JC player.  But the vision isn't to go out and sign a JC guy just because he is a great player who can help right away.  Same with a grad transfer.  They have to fit the bigger vision of where the team resides as part of the university. 

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 07:55:31 PM
Dr.

I am a Chico's fan, but he is playing the younger crowd on here as entertainment. Respect his history in program big time and most of opinions, but he is pandering while on holiday.

Anyone with a brain knows the program is crossroads and little silver lining unless trying to create conversation. Chico's is good man and hope he enjoys the powder. Currently his comments are across the board and stoking the suckers out on scoop.

A Crean Slurper if there ever was one...but who gives up 3 feet of powder to defend his Lover Boy incessantly on Scoop?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 11:21:58 AM
Previous coach left behind 5 RSCI top 100 players, 3 of whom were top 60 and 4 of whom were underclassmen.

Lenny -- normally you're reasonable.  Previous coach couldn't win with those players.  You expect the new coach to win with those players?

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 14, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Good god Chicos. All that powder (2-3 feet of fresh white stuff) and you are on the Scoop wireless spewing...

All of Nevada side closed.  All but 3 lifts closed on California side....high winds.  Can't enjoy the fresh white stuff if most of the mountain is closed, including Gondola to get you up there.  Good news is the next 4 days no wind, hit the slopes at 7:30 am. 

Thanks for checking in

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 07:55:31 PM
Dr.

I am a Chico's fan, but he is playing the younger crowd on here as entertainment. Respect his history in program big time and most of opinions, but he is pandering while on holiday.

Anyone with a brain knows the program is crossroads and little silver lining unless trying to create conversation. Chico's is good man and hope he enjoys the powder. Currently his comments are across the board and stoking the suckers out on scoop.

Excuse me?

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 14, 2016, 08:12:36 PM
Lenny -- normally you're reasonable.  Previous coach couldn't win with those players.  You expect the new coach to win with those players?

Rocky - Buzz never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke and only had JJJ and Deonte as freshmen. That said, I'm not suggesting he left all that much for Wojo - but he certainly left a hell of a lot more behind than what he found waiting for him at Virginia Tech. Despite that, and despite the fact that Va Tech has no history to draw on, Buzz is further along in his rebuild than Wojo is.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 08:33:58 PM
Rocky - Buzz never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke and only had JJJ and Deonte as freshmen. That said, I'm not suggesting he left all that much for Wojo - but he certainly left a hell of a lot more behind than what he found waiting for him at Virginia Tech. Despite that, and despite the fact that Va Tech has no history to draw on, Buzz is further along in his rebuild than Wojo is.

And this affects Marquette how?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 08:30:32 PM
All of Nevada side closed.  All but 3 lifts closed on California side....high winds.  Can't enjoy the fresh white stuff if most of the mountain is closed, including Gondola to get you up there.  Good news is the next 4 days no wind, hit the slopes at 7:30 am. 

Thanks for checking in

Wow. Cannot hit the bowls at Kirkwood or Alpine Meadows that are wind protected? Sounds crazy.  Been at the top of Heavenly with high winds and it is scary.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 14, 2016, 08:11:25 PM
A Crean Slurper if there ever was one...but who gives up 3 feet of powder to defend his Lover Boy incessantly on Scoop?

I haven't given up anything...are you having trouble reading?  Gondola closed Subday and Monday.  High winds, chairs aren't running.  Not sure how hard that is to process.  So we went snow showing in that powder yesterday.  Today a bunch of kids activities, etc....snow mobiling, etc.

We're all chompIMG at the bit to ski, but not wasting a lift ticket for only the bunny hill chairs that are open.  Please read.

I realize you are a huge Buzz slurper, he is a very good coach. If only he could keep his guys from doing stupid things and putting the university in a bad spot so many times, he wouldn't have squeezed. 

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 08:35:52 PM
And this affects Marquette how?

It doesn't...not one bit

Quote from: GOO on March 14, 2016, 07:58:53 PM
Wojo wants to win and wants to win now, like any coach.  But he won't bring in just anyone to win.  He will take a grad transfer that can help, if said grad transfer fits the other criteria (which happen to include being a solid student and caring about academics... which is pretty much the case with a grad transfer). 

He was left with a mess and getting a grad transfer is obviously within what he will do in the short term to shore things up.  I think he'd even consider the right JC player.  But the vision isn't to go out and sign a JC guy just because he is a great player who can help right away.  Same with a grad transfer.  They have to fit the bigger vision of where the team resides as part of the university.

Nonsense.

Quote from: Goose on March 14, 2016, 07:55:31 PM
Dr.

I am a Chico's fan, but he is playing the younger crowd on here as entertainment. Respect his history in program big time and most of opinions, but he is pandering while on holiday.

Anyone with a brain knows the program is crossroads and little silver lining unless trying to create conversation. Chico's is good man and hope he enjoys the powder. Currently his comments are across the board and stoking the suckers out on scoop.

Goose,

Its alright to have a different opinion about the talent level on our team. Let's try to keep this civil.

Quote from: naginiF on March 14, 2016, 07:15:52 PM
FWIW I'm a) thoroughly enjoying the CBB's Pakuni powers working together and b) appreciate you carrying the battle flag for rational thinking Chico's.  I hope you get to ski but i also hope you keep your keyboard by your wine glass for another day.

One subject I'm baffled on is the "Buzz would have..." line of argument.  Buzz was/is a very good coach but it is well established the administration and board of directors of the university didn't feel that his approach to running the program was in line with what the university wanted.  I for one am glad we have an administration that wants to take the clear high road AND have a successful program.  A couple of off years is worth that goal.  Is it a sure thing? No, but it's worth striving for.

Agree entirely.

Grad rates were declining.
APR rates declining.
Police blotter incidents increasing.
Brand tarnishment and constant PR mode.
The last year, who knows what he was doing.


Admin has a university to run, not just a basketball program.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 08:36:45 PM
I haven't given up anything...are you having trouble reading?  Gondola closed Subday and Monday.  High winds, chairs aren't running.  Not sure how hard that is to process.  So we went snow showing in that powder yesterday.  Today a bunch of kids activities, etc....snow mobiling, etc.

We're all chompIMG at the bit to ski, but not wasting a lift ticket for only the bunny hill chairs that are open.  Please read.

I realize you are a huge Buzz slurper, he is a very good coach. If only he could keep his guys from doing stupid things and putting the university in a bad spot so many times, he wouldn't have squeezed.

I think you under (over) estimate my Buzz Slurping...

Quote from: Small Orange Soda on March 14, 2016, 03:54:34 PM
People seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth on the transfer issue.

This whole "Wojo is looking at the long term" tries to play down that Wojo knows how impactful transfers can be(Carlino), and went after them after last season.  So Wojo and staff contacted graduate transfers like Damion Lee and others, but ended up striking out.  People keep pushing the narrative of "looking at the long term" because he wasn't able to get guys in the short term (which, admittedly, is easier said than done.  But it's not somehow the 'wrong' way). 

If Wojo landed a guy like Lee and we were discussing our first round matchup later this week instead of sitting at home again, would people be complaining that Wojo wasn't thinking long term?  Nope.

Logical and consistent with the facts instead of made up gobbledygook - refreshing.

First of all I am predicting that Carter takes a huge step up as a sophomore. I think MU is kind of like Cincy, when they got rid of Huggins. When the chancellor wants the basketball team to represent the University in a certain way it limits what you can achieve on the court. Cincy has not been as good as they were under Huggins and they are definitely not as good as West Virginia has been with Huggins. I see the same thing happening with Virginia Tech as they will out do MU in the near future. I am not sure it is necessarily Wojo's fault. He is doing what the higher ups want him to do. That is build a team with lilly white (I am not referring to skin color) players. The trouble with that is you get a team that plays like lilly white players. Players that cannot rebound or play defense like the players Buzz can recruit at Virginia Tech.

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 08:35:52 PM
And this affects Marquette how?

I was answering Rocky's question. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 08:33:58 PM
Rocky - Buzz never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke and only had JJJ and Deonte as freshmen. That said, I'm not suggesting he left all that much for Wojo - but he certainly left a hell of a lot more behind than what he found waiting for him at Virginia Tech. Despite that, and despite the fact that Va Tech has no history to draw on, Buzz is further along in his rebuild than Wojo is.

Still not true.  Buzz was coaching Luke (sitting out due to transfer) and Duane (sitting out due to injury) his last year in addition to JJJ and Deonte in games.  And you left out STJ in your "5 top 100 list"....at Toledo now.

Regardless of what Buzz INHERITED, that's what he LEFT BEHIND for Wojo to inherit.   Stop overestimating Wojo's inheritance.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 14, 2016, 08:36:13 PM
Wow. Cannot hit the bowls at Kirkwood or Alpine Meadows that are wind protected? Sounds crazy.  Been at the top of Heavenly with high winds and it is scary.

Staying at Heavenly...no desire to ski Kirkwood or Alpine Valley.

Nevada had a power outage up at Heavenly today so they were a mess. 

Enjoyed the day with the wife and kids.

Goose

I think the talent is ok, so we are probably in agreement there, but I like Tracy and HC.  Heldt will be a decent big by the time he is a junior.  Like is a decent big, I think the additions next year hopefully are productive. 

We need to step up the talent game, I don't think anyone will argue with you on that front.  I just don't think the rebuild is as dire as you make it out.  Nor do I think Henry's departure is the end of times for this squad either. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 08:49:25 PM
I was answering Rocky's question. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.

Oh I wasn't really referring to that one specific post. I was asking you, how does what Buzz does at Virginia Tech have any affect or bearing on Marquette?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 08:33:58 PM
Rocky - Buzz never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke and only had JJJ and Deonte as freshmen. That said, I'm not suggesting he left all that much for Wojo - but he certainly left a hell of a lot more behind than what he found waiting for him at Virginia Tech. Despite that, and despite the fact that Va Tech has no history to draw on, Buzz is further along in his rebuild than Wojo is.

Well, there's a reason he never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke, right?

Anyhow, not sure why you're trying to turn this into a Buzz vs Wojo thing. Buzz is doing a nice job at VaTech. Nobody is arguing otherwise. Be happy for him.
But let's not deny that he's going about his rebuild differently, and while his immediate results are slightly better (are we really making a huge deal about an NIT bid?), it remains to be seen if it'll play out that way over the next few seasons. Fact remains, his best players are two upperclassman transfers and a kid the previous coach landed. His recruiting classes haven't exactly wowed anyone.
I still like MU's chances of being the better program 2-3 years down the road, if not sooner. Maybe I'll be wrong. Frankly, not sure Buzz will still be at VaTech long enough to find out.

Lastly, the "history" argument is trash. History doesn't win games, develop players or sign 17-year-olds.
You know who has a great basketball history? St. John's. You know who else? DePaul.  And Bradley. And Loyola. How's that working for them?
You know who has virtually no history? Miami. And Baylor. And Texas A&M.

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 09:17:48 PM
Oh I wasn't really referring to that one specific post. I was asking you, how does what Buzz does at Virginia Tech have any affect or bearing on Marquette?

Buzz preceded Wojo at Marquette. There is a faction on Scoop who is dishonest about what Buzz was at MU and what he is now. As long as they're taking cheap shots and making stuff up about Buzz (which evidently doesn't bother you) I reserve the right to set the record straight.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
IMHO, Wojo deserves about 25% blame for this year's failure. 

The braintrust that created the OOC schedule another 25+ (which may include Wojo.)

The remainder is a combo of Buzz, LWilliams, Pilarz.

The thread started with trying to deflect blame from Wojo, but .. does anyone think he's the one mostly to blame?

Edit: Not Cottingham.  So many ADs to remember.

Topper, you are right on. This problem was set in place by the leadership in place 4 years ago. The new guys are working their a$$ off to find a recipe for long term success. Give them time.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 08:40:31 PM
Agree entirely.

Grad rates were declining.
APR rates declining.
Police blotter incidents increasing.
Brand tarnishment and constant PR mode.
The last year, who knows what he was doing.


Admin has a university to run, not just a basketball program.

This 3 year streak of mediocrity is way more damaging for the brand

[quote author=Lennys TapChicosBailBonds link=topic=51136.msg816447#msg816447 date=1458008938]
BuzzCrean preceded WojoBuzz at Marquette. There is a faction on Scoop who is dishonest about what BuzzCrean was at MU and what he is now. As long as they're taking cheap shots and making stuff up about BuzzCrean (which evidently doesn't bother you) I reserve the right to set the record straight.
[/quote]

I'm sorry, this was just too perfect.


Also, I haven't seen anything dishonest posted about Buzz. I've seen exaggerations and jokes. But nothing worse than Crean or Wojo gets. And I was dubbed Grand Admiral of the Slurper regime.

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 09:46:37 PM
I'm sorry, this was just too perfect.

What cheap shots is he talking about?

Our APR rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our graduation rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our covers on the Chicago Tribune, evening news, police blotter activity went up.  Fact

He came in with a ready made NCAA team, he left with a team not capable of the NIT.  Fact

What on earth could he deny in these facts?

Buzz is a really good coach, especially when the talent is already there and ready made.  On the high school talent, mixed bag at best. 

Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 14, 2016, 09:37:14 PM
This 3 year streak of mediocrity is way more damaging for the brand

The university is doing fine, and they would like to not have that kind of damage control to have to deal with.

Seriously Nate, you may want to adopt a new school where that stuff is tolerated, because it won't be at MU. 

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 09:46:37 PM



Also, I haven't seen anything dishonest posted about Buzz. I've seen exaggerations and jokes. But nothing worse than Crean or Wojo gets. And I was dubbed Grand Admiral of the Slurper regime.

You must have Lindsay Vonn on ignore.

Chico's, I apologize if I riled you up on the other thread.  Just trying to understand what you are saying.  I see age in college basketball on a relative ladder.  Guys make relatively equal improvements year to year.  Just to make sure I have you right, are you saying there is a bigger difference between freshman and sophomore year versus sophomore and junior year?  If so, have you seen any data to back that up? I'm just curious.

Quote from: MUDPT on March 14, 2016, 10:06:20 PM
Chico's, I apologize if I riled you up on the other thread.  Just trying to understand what you are saying.  I see age in college basketball on a relative ladder.  Guys make relatively equal improvements year to year.  Just to make sure I have you right, are you saying there is a bigger difference between freshman and sophomore year versus sophomore and junior year?  If so, have you seen any data to back that up? I'm just curious.

I have heard that said by a number of informed sources on TV.  I don't have stats at hand but think about it for a minute.  A freshman is making the jump from High School ball where he is probably the best by far on his team or in his league and maybe in his state to college where almost everybody is at least as good as he is and older.  He goes from playing in gyms near his home to huge stadiums and on TV.  The defenses are much more complex.  With all that to consider that is a big jump.  The jump from freshman to Soph you are expected to play a greater role but other than that EVERYTHING is the same as the prior year.
Therefore it would seem to make sense that a player would be able to improve more between freshman and soph than the other years because he faces so many handicaps that first year.  The only other "inflection point" would come between junior and senior when the sense of urgency sets in.  To me this all makes sense and I would bet that if you could somehow study it holding other things constant you'd find its true. 

I'd be interested to see what Value Add has to say about improvement between freshmen vs. sophomores, juniors and seniors.

And, beyond the average improvement, I'd like to know more about the range and distribution involved. If you roll two dice, add the total, and do that 100 times, the average will likely be about 7. But for any single roll of the dice, the probability of getting exactly a 7 is just under 17%. In other words, about 83% of the time, you'll get a result that's higher or lower.

No two college players are exactly alike. Some show slow and steady improvement throughout college. Others improve by leaps and bounds from one year to the next. What do the numbers tell us?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 09:54:28 PM
What cheap shots is he talking about?

Our APR rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our graduation rates went down under Buzz.  Fact

Our covers on the Chicago Tribune, evening news, police blotter activity went up.  Fact

He came in with a ready made NCAA team, he left with a team not capable of the NIT.  Fact




What on earth could he deny in these facts?

Buzz is a really good coach, especially when the talent is already there and ready made.  On the high school talent, mixed bag at best.

He won games...That's all that I was concerned about...He won and did it within the rules...the rest...makes no difference to me at all. I'm not an alum, just a long time season ticket holder(and donor), all I care about is the basketball team, and how much they win. Period. The basketball program is/was Marquette that's their identity. They spend as much or more $$ than any team in the country on their program...You'd think they'd expect the results to reflect that. The last three years they haven't...I hope as much or more than anyone Wojo wins a national championship at MU, but right now, regardless of anything else, he hasn't even gotten them in the postseason. I think Wojo was a bit of a panic move by MU after getting jilted by Shaka's wife. Nothing says settle more than going after a big fish, missing out than "settling" for an asst Coach at a big time program.

It's like asking the hottest girl in school out, getting rejected and then settling for the girl that you know will date you, isnt nearly as hot, but it's better than not being with anyone at all. So you go the "safe" route.

Quote from: MUDPT on March 14, 2016, 10:06:20 PM
Chico's, I apologize if I riled you up on the other thread.  Just trying to understand what you are saying.  I see age in college basketball on a relative ladder.  Guys make relatively equal improvements year to year.  Just to make sure I have you right, are you saying there is a bigger difference between freshman and sophomore year versus sophomore and junior year?  If so, have you seen any data to back that up? I'm just curious.

No problem, I wasn't riled up.  I mean that. 

I think the biggest jump from an emotional, deer in the headlights perspective is freshman to sophomore year.  Think about your own life in college, or high school.  Freshman year is tough.  Everything is new.  Process, expectations, how to survive, etc.  I think Al said it best..the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores.

Now, a lot of guys make huge improvements in their game the last two years, but I think the sloppiness part, the turnovers, the understanding of what it takes to prepare, how to win on the road, etc, etc....a lot of that is learned in your first few years.  Ideally we would have older guys helping out the younger guys, unfortunately we are so damn young they are having to learn from each other. 

My two cents.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 10:00:05 PM
You must have Lindsay Vonn on ignore.

That was funny.

But no, I see his posts. So far nothing dishonest. There were issues when Buzz was here. That is true. I, like others thought they were more episodic than systematic and to be completely honest, some of the issues, didn't bother me that much. College kids going to clubs and one getting in a fight is definitely bad, but I also see normal college students do that every day. Maybe that makes me #justwinbaby or a bad person but its how I feel. I still like Buzz and I hope he does well at Oklahoma State...er....Virginia Tech. I think its better for Marquette if there former coaches do well.

Quote from: muguru on March 14, 2016, 11:39:29 PM

He won games...That's all that I was concerned about...He won and did it within the rules...the rest...makes no difference to me at all. I'm not an alum, just a long time season ticket holder(and donor), all I care about is the basketball team, and how much they win. Period. The basketball program is/was Marquette that's their identity. They spend as much or more $$ than any team in the country on their program...You'd think they'd expect the results to reflect that. The last three years they haven't...I hope as much or more than anyone Wojo wins a national championship at MU, but right now, regardless of anything else, he hasn't even gotten them in the postseason. I think Wojo was a bit of a panic move by MU after getting jilted by Shaka's wife. Nothing says settle more than going after a big fish, missing out than "settling" for an asst Coach at a big time program.

It's like asking the hottest girl in school out, getting rejected and then settling for the girl that you know will date you, isnt nearly as hot, but it's better than not being with anyone at all. So you go the "safe" route.

For many alumni, they view it differently. Think about the 80% of students that didn't buy tickets even when we were good?  When I ran marketing for the athletic department I put out a survey to alums and season ticket holders, the amount of people that are passive fans or non fans is very high....but that isn't unique to MU, that is the case at many schools.  Sure, there are schools in the South that sell out 100,000 seat stadiums, but there is a reason for that which doesn't translate here.

I think you have to put things through the perspective of the President of the school that is protecting the image of the university.  If Buzz's guys "won" as you stated, that would be great.  But he didn't "just win", there was a lot of crap that came with it that pulled the university through 2+ years of media exposure that was damning.   There's a reason why CEOs protect brands and image, the university is doing the same.  Buzz couldn't contain his guys.

Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 11:42:21 PM
That was funny.

But no, I see his posts. So far nothing dishonest. There were issues when Buzz was here. That is true. I, like others thought they were more episodic than systematic and to be completely honest, some of the issues, didn't bother me that much. College kids going to clubs and one getting in a fight is definitely bad, but I also see normal college students do that every day. Maybe that makes me #justwinbaby or a bad person but its how I feel. I still like Buzz and I hope he does well at Oklahoma State...er....Virginia Tech. I think its better for Marquette if there former coaches do well.

I hope Buzz does well also.  Thank you for backing me up, I'm not being dishonest.  I actually agree much of it was episodic, problem was they kept coming and didn't stop.  Despite the pleading, there was always another episode and it culminated.  They couldn't get out of their own way.  Eventually, you have to say enough.  The sexual assault stuff, was huge.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 09:58:25 PM
The university is doing fine, and they would like to not have that kind of damage control to have to deal with.

Seriously Nate, you may want to adopt a new school where that stuff is tolerated, because it won't be at MU.

I just saw a piece on ComcastSportsNet in Chicago which focused on the "Sorry State" of affairs in Illinoís regarding the in-state schools continuing to have little presence in the Chicago recruiting scene. Much lamenting of the top talent getting away to out-of-state powers due to the locals (NU, DePaul, UofI, UIC) not maintaining solid relationships with the Chi Public League coaches. David Kaplan intimated that the real reason for the relationship vaccuum is the inordinate influence AAU coaches have in the Chicago area, and the attendant conflicts involving shoe companies. This is paraphrasing Kappy, but he basically said , "You have to be skilled at understanding the game within the game, and be ready to play." Yet, who swept in and signed Jabari Parker? Jahlil Okafer? None other than Duke. I'm not suggesting Duke did anything untoward. And both those kids are by most accounts good people.
I'm just saying that we shouldn't get the naive  idea that clean, "model",  programs don't also "play the game". Didn't AL say something about it being a good thing people don't know that recruiting resembles the sausage-making process? And that was the 1970s for goodness sakes!! This being said, I think Wojo may be being held to a higher, cleaner standard of recruiting than maybe he has ever been held, even at Duke. That fact should not be lost on any of us, like myself, who want Wojo to stay here for a long, long time. I hope the administration does not tie his hands when a good kid truly belongs at MU, but a slight blip on his past radar causes an unfair overreaction by Board types.

I think Wojo is doing an amazing job attracting quality human beings to our beloved MU. I heard Haanif interviewed after the game at DePaul. He sounded like a seasoned veteran Senior, as far as the way he carried himself and his vocabulary. That said, his play is at an even higher level. Wojo is doing things the right way. He will continue to attract the highest quality student-athletes, and that is no easy task. I am comforted knowing that being a quality human being is a prerequisite for any MU recruit. That said, of course we all want great athletes with tremendous skill-sets to choose MU. But, maybe we should reference Nick Nolte's speech from BlueChips each season. You know...the team and coaches busted their *@##&! for 8 months, won 20 games, went to class, worked hard in school, gave their absolute all, and you know what...it's not good enough for you!!! 

Buzz's guys were absolute junkyard dogs, and who couldn't love JFB, Jae, Lazar, Wes etc?? There is something to be said about guys that the world had given up on. You talk about fire and chips on shoulders!!!! One poster made a good point that this may be missing from our current group.  Unfortunately, a couple bad incidents under Buzz sullied our school's image. None of us have ALL the facts to play judge and jury. Buzz is gone. He did a hell of a job on the basketball court and he is to be lauded for changing multiple kids lives for the better. Wojo, when all is said and done, will get the absolute best from the kids he brings in. A kid or two may come running to hug him after a key win to wrap up a BigEast title or three or four. So what that his kids may have a little higher starting point in life, in general?? Yet, I wouldn't say that to Traci's face. He might disagree with that.

We may not win every game, but we will indeed, pardon the cliche, win every day....because that means everyone is on the same page, from Admin to Coaches to Players to Students, all doing their absolute best to get our program back to where we are meant to be....and doing it the right way...for who we are today.

Unlike Chicos who hoped and prayed buzz would be gone, I am hoping that Wojo Turns this around and makes me eat crow.   I am not Anti Wojo.  I was am Pro-Buzz and was Pro-Crean because they both won games.      Hopefully next year I will be a Pro-Wojo convert!

Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 14, 2016, 09:37:14 PM
This 3 year streak of mediocrity is way more damaging for the brand

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45emkmf/20-marquette-golden-eag/


Forbes just announced Marquette is the 20th most valuable program in the United States for 2016. The brand is on fire.

Buzz left in March of 2014.

The sexual assault stories (which I would have been fine if they fired him then) hit their apex in Oct 2011 (Chicago Tribune reporting of past incidents).

After that, I believe the only dirty thing was Monarch being canned in August 2012.

If anything, you could make the argument MU pushed him out when the winning stopped, not when the incidents peaked.

Quote from: The Lens on March 15, 2016, 09:29:09 AM
Buzz left in March of 2014.

The sexual assault stories (which I would have been fine if they fired him then) hit their apex in Oct 2011 (Chicago Tribune reporting of past incidents).

After that, I believe the only dirty thing was Monarch being canned in August 2012.

If anything, you could make the argument MU pushed him out when the winning stopped, not when the incidents peaked.

But nobody pushed him out. They set standards/conditions under which they wanted the program to operate. Buzz chose not to work under those conditions and sought employment elsewhere.

I know people are inclined to seek out a bad guy in these situations, but I don't think there is one here. The university is completely justified in establishing what it sees as appropriate standards. And Buzz is well within his rights to work within that framework or not. He chose not. Life goes on.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 15, 2016, 09:36:44 AM
But nobody pushed him out. They set standards/conditions under which they wanted the program to operate. Buzz chose not to work under those conditions and sought employment elsewhere.

I know people are inclined to seek out a bad guy in these situations, but I don't think there is one here. The university is completely justified in establishing what it sees as appropriate standards. And Buzz is well within his rights to work within that framework or not. He chose not. Life goes on.

Absolutely. Hopefully Wojo can win with those standards.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 14, 2016, 08:33:58 PM
Rocky - Buzz never had the chance to coach Duane or Luke and only had JJJ and Deonte as freshmen. That said, I'm not suggesting he left all that much for Wojo - but he certainly left a hell of a lot more behind than what he found waiting for him at Virginia Tech. Despite that, and despite the fact that Va Tech has no history to draw on, Buzz is further along in his rebuild than Wojo is.

My opinion is that if a guy doesn't fit under the new coach and transfers out, then he didn't really "leave" that player for the new coach. I don't think we can count Deonte, STJ, or Dawson. Buzz left Wojo with Fischer, Anderson, both D. Wilsons, JJ and I'll count Cohen. So 3 pretty good players for a 13 man roster. That's pretty damn bare. Va Tech had more talent than us last year and this year it was close, IMO.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 15, 2016, 09:36:44 AM
But nobody pushed him out. They set standards/conditions under which they wanted the program to operate. Buzz chose not to work under those conditions and sought employment elsewhere.

I know people are inclined to seek out a bad guy in these situations, but I don't think there is one here. The university is completely justified in establishing what it sees as appropriate standards. And Buzz is well within his rights to work within that framework or not. He chose not. Life goes on.

Well said

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 15, 2016, 09:18:11 AM

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emdm45emkmf/20-marquette-golden-eag/


Forbes just announced Marquette is the 20th most valuable program in the United States for 2016. The brand is on fire.

That is an interesting list :) wisco at 9, northwestern at 15, and Dayton at 17.

Top 20 sounds damn good to me though

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 15, 2016, 12:25:00 PM
That is an interesting list :) wisco at 9, northwestern at 15, and Dayton at 17.

Top 20 sounds damn good to me though

Xavier right in front of us at 19.

Quote from: WarriorPride68 on March 15, 2016, 12:25:00 PM
That is an interesting list :) wisco at 9, northwestern at 15, and Dayton at 17.

Top 20 sounds damn good to me though

Dayton at 17. That should set some hair on fire.

Here's there methodology:

To determine the sport's most valuable programs, we look at three key areas for which college basketball's top teams generate value: their universities, athletic departments and conferences.

University value comes from academic spending, including team scholarships and other school support, while value to the athletic department is measured by the basketball team profits that go toward funding non-revenue sports like swimming or softball.

Lastly, conference value comes from conference payouts tied to success in the NCAA Tournament.

Quote from: ZenyattasTapitColt on March 15, 2016, 12:04:02 AM


Buzz's guys were absolute junkyard dogs, and who couldn't love JFB, Jae, Lazar, Wes etc?? There is something to be said about guys that the world had given up on. You talk about fire and chips on shoulders!!!!

Wes was a Crean recruit as was Lazar.   I'm fine with guys with a chip on their shoulders, but I don't understand why people think only a JUCO can have that motivational push.

Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 15, 2016, 07:46:54 AM
Unlike Chicos who hoped and prayed buzz would be gone, I am hoping that Wojo Turns this around and makes me eat crow.   I am not Anti Wojo.  I was am Pro-Buzz and was Pro-Crean because they both won games.      Hopefully next year I will be a Pro-Wojo convert!

I didn't hope or pray Buzz was gone, I hoped he could win without dragging the university through the mud.  He couldn't do that, he's gone now.   He is a very good coach, should have been coach of the year one year in the Big East.  If he could have done the winning without the extra nonsense (some public, some that never became public), that's a different story.  He couldn't.

A couple of quick footnotes:  Coach Krzyzewski was 9-17 in his final year at Army.  In his first three years at Duke he was 17-13, 10-17 and 11-17.  Dean Smith's first three years at North Carolina went 8-9, 15-6 and 12-12.  Students hung him in effigy, in his third year at the school.

Wojo's team won 20 games in his second season, two players made the All Freshman Team.  That was his first recruiting class.  We're not seeing Dukiet or Deane level recruits.  Buzz left the team with unbalanced recruiting class, consistent transfers and some players who had the potential to give the school negative national headlines.  The mess went beyond the roster to staff and fundamental institutional issues.

The world has changed since Krzyzewski and Smith started.  Would they have been given time in the Internet fan message board era?  Did they have legacy and institutional issues Wojo and the new school president had to deal with?

Quote from: TheTulsaWarrior on March 16, 2016, 12:18:54 PM
A couple of quick footnotes:  Coach Krzyzewski was 9-17 in his final year at Army.  In his first three years at Duke he was 17-13, 10-17 and 11-17.  Dean Smith's first three years at North Carolina went 8-9, 15-6 and 12-12.  Students hung him in effigy, in his third year at the school.

Wojo's team won 20 games in his second season, two players made the All Freshman Team.  That was his first recruiting class.  We're not seeing Dukiet or Deane level recruits.  Buzz left the team with unbalanced recruiting class, consistent transfers and some players who had the potential to give the school negative national headlines.  The mess went beyond the roster to staff and fundamental institutional issues.

The world has changed since Krzyzewski and Smith started.  Would they have been given time in the Internet fan message board era?  Did they have legacy and institutional issues Wojo and the new school president had to deal with?

I think Wojo has done a fine job so far. As has already been discussed, he was handed a mess when he walked in...and MU's record last season reflected this. This season, MU won 20 games. Equally important (to me), MU is now doing it without the shady crap that Buzz was increasingly involved in. Considering some of the limitations that MU faces: small school in a frozen, rust belt city. I think Wojo has stepped up and delivered. Are there areas where he can improve? Certainly. But overall, he has done well—and is doing it the right way.

Quote from: TheTulsaWarrior on March 16, 2016, 12:18:54 PM
A couple of quick footnotes:  Coach Krzyzewski was 9-17 in his final year at Army.  In his first three years at Duke he was 17-13, 10-17 and 11-17.  Dean Smith's first three years at North Carolina went 8-9, 15-6 and 12-12.  Students hung him in effigy, in his third year at the school.

Wojo's team won 20 games in his second season, two players made the All Freshman Team.  That was his first recruiting class.  We're not seeing Dukiet or Deane level recruits.  Buzz left the team with unbalanced recruiting class, consistent transfers and some players who had the potential to give the school negative national headlines.  The mess went beyond the roster to staff and fundamental institutional issues.

The world has changed since Krzyzewski and Smith started.  Would they have been given time in the Internet fan message board era?  Did they have legacy and institutional issues Wojo and the new school president had to deal with?

Yep.  I've tried pointing out K's early record at Duke a few times this season when people were expressing disappointment about Wojo, but it often fell on deaf ears.  I think time will show Wojo to be a good hire.