The seat wojo was given by the MU brain trust has gotten a little warmer. Of course his job is not in trouble because after all he did come from Duke. If you recall the same MU brain trust mentioned Duke so much when he was hired that for a second I thought my almamater had moved to Durham.
Three years no post season. Granted one year was a spiteful Buzz who tanked the season to get back at an administration that only gave him 2 mil per year. But back to my point. The thought that a trip to next year's nit would be an improvement for mu irks me to no end. The interest in the program is deflating at a rate that would make tom Brady jealous. Will they surprise us next year? How about a surprise win against butler or Xavier? Exactly... Not going to happen. Living in Connecticut and having to witness mediocre uconn teams win post season games one after another in unbelievable fashions makes me want to believe that it can happen to our team. But it won't. Good night. Wake me up in a few years when mu decides to play in the CIT tournament! Oh and who am I kidding wojo just got an extension so turn the temp down on the seat. After all he went to Duke!!!!
Gee, that rant was worth it's own thread. What, you couldn't have just added "+1" to one of the other bitter betty rants?
I know how you feel and can't totally blame you. The extension was Wojo was a joke. But it's too early to pull the plug and call the hire a mistake. I don't believe Wojo is a good game coach and don't like the fact he has no veteran assistants to tell him when he is wrong. But this team was better than last year's. If there is no postseason bid next year and attendance keeps falling (which it almost certainly will) then it may be time to rethink things.
There are so many whining babies on this board. Wojo's had one year to bring in talent and it was a top tier level recruiting year. He is on year two. The program is moving forward and Wojo is also doing it right. He's bringing in quality players, but also quality young men that have high character. In time we will be a consistent NCAA team under his direction. Additionally, MU made a good decision in upping his contract. He is not just a game coach. He is creating a culture for the program and for the university. Winning is a priority, but it's not the only thing. In time the whiners will be silenced. Then they will claim they were always MU "fans". Wojo is a winner, and several posters on this board are just the opposite.
Yes it does warrant its own post because I'm frustrated. I want to vent. I keep quiet all year and let things happen and then on selection Sunday get pissed off because mu is nowhere near being included in the dance. That's all. So I deserve my own thread instead of seeing chicos every five seconds.
I think he has one more honeymoon year. Looking at the roster next year without HE its hard to expect an NCAA berth.
Quote from: hoops12 on March 13, 2016, 10:59:57 PM
There are so many whining babies on this board. Wojo's had one year to bring in talent and it was a top tier level recruiting year. He is on year two. The program is moving forward and Wojo is also doing it right. He's bringing in quality players, but also quality young men that have high character. In time we will be a consistent NCAA team under his direction. Additionally, MU made a good decision in upping his contract. He is not just a game coach. He is creating a culture for the program and for the university. Winning is a priority, but it's not the only thing. In time the whiners will be silenced. Then they will claim they were always MU "fans". Wojo is a winner, and several posters on this board are just the opposite.
+1000
Quote from: vacinator on March 13, 2016, 11:24:15 PM
I think he has one more honeymoon year. Looking at the roster next year without HE its hard to expect an NCAA berth.
Plenty of time to do work on the roster though.
"Be patient". It's been 3 dam years! people are done with this program being just utter disappointment.it's scary really..ticket sales plumitting.. Looking like 4 straight years no ncaas. People/fans start getting frustrated and after nothing changes they just stop caring. This program is heading down and it's just sad really. we're losing are identity. No NCAA next year. Fire Steve.
Quote from: vacinator on March 13, 2016, 11:24:15 PM
I think he has one more honeymoon year. Looking at the roster next year without HE its hard to expect an NCAA berth.
Assuming no one besides Henry leaves, I am expecting an NCAA berth.
Quote from: jt92 on March 13, 2016, 11:00:41 PM
Yes it does warrant its own post because I'm frustrated. I want to vent. I keep quiet all year and let things happen and then on selection Sunday get pissed off because mu is nowhere near being included in the dance. That's all. So I deserve my own thread instead of seeing chicos every five seconds.
Put me on ignore....very simple. But it's good to see you are frustrated.
As for the extension, you basically have to do it if you want kids to think you're going to be around.
My hope is we can link this thread and a few others in the next few years and a lot of people will say "wow, gave up on him way too early". But, maybe we can't. End of the day, he just finished his second year, and his second year was a lot better than the first year. He's had one recruiting class. I honestly can't figure out how you guys can judge based on one recruiting class...I really can't....but hey, you're frustrated. ?-(
Quote from: Johnny B on March 13, 2016, 11:32:43 PM
"Be patient". It's been 3 dam years! people are done with this program being just utter disappointment.it's scary really..ticket sales plumitting.. Looking like 4 straight years no ncaas. People/fans start getting frustrated and after nothing changes they just stop caring. This program is heading down and it's just sad really. we're losing are identity. No NCAA next year. Fire Steve.
My God....3 dam <sic> years? Plumitting <sic> you say? we're losing are <sic> identity.
Fire your teachers you had growing up
Quote from: hoops12 on March 13, 2016, 10:59:57 PM
There are so many whining babies on this board. Wojo's had one year to bring in talent and it was a top tier level recruiting year. He is on year two. The program is moving forward and Wojo is also doing it right. He's bringing in quality players, but also quality young men that have high character. In time we will be a consistent NCAA team under his direction. Additionally, MU made a good decision in upping his contract. He is not just a game coach. He is creating a culture for the program and for the university. Winning is a priority, but it's not the only thing. In time the whiners will be silenced. Then they will claim they were always MU "fans". Wojo is a winner, and several posters on this board are just the opposite.
+1...at least that's my hope.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 11:35:20 PM
My God....3 dam <sic> years? Plumitting <sic> you say? we're losing are <sic> identity.
Fire your teachers you had growing up
Ugh....
I'm typing to get the point across.. Not to win a grammar contest... but thanks.. anyways keep being happy with this great program missing out year after year.. People that are so ok with this have their heads up their asses..
Oh and considering I'm a student at MU I'll be sure to let my professors know they should be fired..
Quote from: Johnny B on March 13, 2016, 11:46:07 PM
Ugh....
I'm typing to get the point across.. Not to win a grammar contest... but thanks.. anyways keep being happy with this great program missing out year after year.. People that are so ok with this have their heads up their asses..
Oh and considering I'm a student at MU I'll be sure to let my professors know they should be fired..
Were not ok with it. We just understand that there's nothing more that can be done. Wojo was given a crap sandwich to start with. He brought in one class and got us our first 20 win season since the Elite 8 year. I expect with 2 classes he'll do even more.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 13, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
Plenty of time to do work on the roster though.
Agree 100%. MU needs to get stronger! Hopefully Wojo got that message.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 13, 2016, 11:52:36 PM
Were not ok with it. We just understand that there's nothing more that can be done. Wojo was given a crap sandwich to start with. He brought in one class and got us our first 20 win season since the Elite 8 year. I expect with 2 classes he'll do even more.
it's just getting difficult staying interested and caring. We're losing are best player and bringing in one decent player next year. I just don't see where this gets much better but we'll see Ryan.
Quote from: Johnny B on March 14, 2016, 12:00:08 AM
it's just getting difficult staying interested and caring. We're losing are best player and bringing in one decent player next year. I just don't see where this gets much better but we'll see Ryan.
Freshmen become sophomores....listen to MU's greatest coach....heed his words. ;)
Look at the teams over the years that lost their best player and came back stronger, more balanced. It happens. Will it for MU? I don't know, but chin up fellas. If this year was as bad as last year, I would agree, but it wasn't.
Four things need to happen for MU to make the tourney next year. JJJ needs to have a Vander type junior year, Haanif needs to be a legitimate 2nd or even 1st option on offense Luke needs to stay out of foul trouble and Traci need to be like senior year Cadougan.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 14, 2016, 12:08:54 AM
Four things need to happen for MU to make the tourney next year. JJJ needs to have a Vander type junior year, Haanif needs to be a legitimate 2nd or even 1st option on offense Luke needs to stay out of foul trouble and Traci need to be like senior year Cadougan.
I'll add one Chitown. Assuming HE leaves, we need somebody who can rebound and play D at the #4. I don't think I see that guy on the roster right now. I was amused in that other thread when somebody suggested Steve assuming he graduates. But a 'STjr type' would fit the bill just fine.
We're light years ahead of last year at this same point in time. Assuming nothing crazy happens, we've got 4 legitimate starters returning, 2 very experienced 6th and 7th men, 2-3 respectable returning bench guys behind that, and already two newcomers (I'm including Rowsey) who will be expected to contribute with more certainly on the way. Let's see what Wojo pulls off by May. We'll know a lot more by then.
I was not totally on board when they hired Wojo, but I am now. I have no real reason to be other than just a feeling. Somebody above mentioned the word "winner" and I think that's as good an explanation as any. He's got something and I can't wait to see it manifest itself.
Quote from: jt92 on March 13, 2016, 11:00:41 PM
So I deserve my own thread
Come on now. Let's just stick to facts, please.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 14, 2016, 07:35:48 AM
I was not totally on board when they hired Wojo, but I am now. I have no real reason to be other than just a feeling. Somebody above mentioned the word "winner" and I think that's as good an explanation as any. He's got something and I can't wait to see it manifest itself.
agree 1000 - frankly - as long as the admin and players are behind a coach - all our job is as fans is to root like hell for the team - it makes me sick when i see other programs who have coaches that are loved by the admin and team and yet there is this public outcry over their removal that forces a change - in general i feel like that sets programs behind as is seems to make it intrinsically harder for the next person to succeed given the environment -
it is clear the admin and players really support Wojo - as long as he keeps bringing in quality players we all need to shut our damn mouths and let him do his job
I look for Wojo, or almost any coach, to have four years and show continued improvement with the chance at bringing in and coaching their own recruits. Granted, MU did not reach the postseason this year, but this team was better than last year. Although HE will be gone, let's see how this team progresses over the next couple years before hauling out the pitchforks.
Quote from: Johnny B on March 13, 2016, 11:46:07 PM
People that are so ok with this have their heads up their asses.
Or maybe they have lives. There's a whole beautiful world out there besides Marquette basketball. I'd highly recommend you live it! Maybe, I don't know, get with a woman or whatever your choice of pleasure might be.
Besides, even if I weren't "OK with this" -- although I am, because it's far too early in Wojo's regime to make a real judgment -- I try not to get bent out of shape about what I can't control.
But hey, I was a kid once, too, and I used to rant and rave when something pissed me off.
Of course, I had to do my ranting and raving by semaphore flags or by rock and chisel.
I'm as frustrated as anyone .. 3 depressing Selection Sundays in a row, and quite possibly a 4th next year.
But I think Wojo was a decent hire to date.
Recruiting is an A-.
Player Development B+.
Game coaching, hard to tell, but let's say B.
Program Ambassador A.
Improving the Program, C+.
Post-Season: F. (NIT berth earns you a C.)
If "Improving the program" and Post-season remain those grades after 2 more seasons, then yes, he flunks out.
Quote from: hoops12 on March 13, 2016, 10:59:57 PM
There are so many whining babies on this board. Wojo's had one year to bring in talent and it was a top tier level recruiting year. He is on year two. The program is moving forward and Wojo is also doing it right. He's bringing in quality players, but also quality young men that have high character. In time we will be a consistent NCAA team under his direction. Additionally, MU made a good decision in upping his contract. He is not just a game coach. He is creating a culture for the program and for the university. Winning is a priority, but it's not the only thing. In time the whiners will be silenced. Then they will claim they were always MU "fans". Wojo is a winner, and several posters on this board are just the opposite.
No, Wojo has had 2 years to bring in talent, admittedly, he lost some time the first year because he was a late hire. Thanks to the phony cowboy. There is no question that Wojo is a very good recruiter, but he has not jelled the talent. His ass should be getting warm, because the team should have done better with that talent. I along with many others blame the phony cowboy for most of the mess, but many of Wojo's key players were buzz adds. Jjj, wilson, big fish, cohen. The talent is there, Wojo has not produced to the level of that talent. His ass should feel the heat.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 14, 2016, 10:36:08 AM
No, Wojo has had 2 years to bring in talent, admittedly, he lost some time the first year because he was a late hire. Thanks to the phony cowboy. There is no question that Wojo is a very good recruiter, but he has not jelled the talent. His ass should be getting warm, because the team should have done better with that talent. I along with many others blame the phony cowboy for most of the mess, but many of Wojo's key players were buzz adds. Jjj, wilson, big fish, cohen. The talent is there, Wojo has not produced to the level of that talent. His ass should feel the heat.
Give me a break. He's had one recruiting class, so he hasn't had 2 years to bring in talent. The first year was grab whatever you can in a graduate transfer.
48% of our minutes this year played by freshmen.
Some of you guys are just pissy about not making the post season 3 straight years.....well you can blame the guy in Virginia for that.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:46:54 AM
Some of you guys are just pissy about not making the post season 3 straight years.....well you can blame the guy in Virginia for that.
Why do you give Pilarz & Larry a pass?
It's Buzz, it's buzz.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:46:54 AM
Give me a break. He's had one recruiting class, so he hasn't had 2 years to bring in talent. The first year was grab whatever you can in a graduate transfer.
48% of our minutes this year played by freshmen.
Some of you guys are just pissy about not making the post season 3 straight years.....well you can blame the guy in Virginia for that.
I'm just mystified how anyone ISN'T pushing the panic button right now.
With the talent on this team this season, not to make the NI-frickin'-T is just mind-boggling.
I liked the Wojo hire, but that seat better be hot next season - Ellenson or no Ellenson.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 14, 2016, 10:48:05 AM
Why do you give Pilarz & Larry a pass?
Not a pass, but Pilarz and Larry's reactions were caused by one thing.....the dumb actions of Buzz's guys that became very newsworthy. If Buzz's guys weren't in the news so often for the wrong reasons, many of those reactions wouldn't have happened by the administration.
Look, no coach is perfect, no player, no administration. All programs have their share of troubles, but Buzz's put MU in the news for the wrong reasons and repeatedly. The administration reacted, the alumni reacted....would they have reacted if players weren't involved in sexual assaults, punching students, being cited, coaches lying during an investigation, etc, etc?
Uhm, no.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 14, 2016, 07:35:48 AM
I was not totally on board when they hired Wojo, but I am now. I have no real reason to be other than just a feeling. Somebody above mentioned the word "winner" and I think that's as good an explanation as any. He's got something and I can't wait to see it manifest itself.
How you say...Je ne sais quoi, no?
(http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9400000/Audrey-audrey-hepburn-9463504-784-1011.jpg)
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 10:59:18 AM
I'm just mystified how anyone ISN'T pushing the panic button right now.
With the talent on this team this season, not to make the NI-frickin'-T is just mind-boggling.
I liked the Wojo hire, but that seat better be hot next season - Ellenson or no Ellenson.
3Mers usually aren't so short sighted. You're not really a 3Mer, you're 1SE.
First, schedule was a little weak. Not all on Wojo.
Second, many spots in NIT were taken by mid major conference champs who screwed the pooch in their conference tourney. That's on the NCAA. Weakens the NIT imho.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 11:04:37 AM
Not a pass, but Pilarz and Larry's reactions were caused by one thing.....the dumb actions of Buzz's guys that became very newsworthy. If Buzz's guys weren't in the news so often for the wrong reasons, many of those reactions wouldn't have happened by the administration.
Fair enough - when I see the people who are supposed to be the adults in the room over-react and essentially leave the program with a similar result you would expect from an NCAA sanction - I place my blame elsewhere.
If it were as bad as you paint they should have gone the decisive route and fired him -- but they didn't - they were too weak to fire him because he was winning and instead punished him passive aggressively.
Leaders make decisions...and there is a reason some of those leaders are gone
Quote from: mu-rara on March 14, 2016, 11:10:38 AM
First, schedule was a little weak. Not all on Wojo.
A "little" weak? Really. "Marquette also played a non-conference schedule ranked 330th out of 351 teams." http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/371940711.html
Take all the personal shots at me you want, but try to include some facts.
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 10:59:18 AM
I'm just mystified how anyone ISN'T pushing the panic button right now.
With the talent on this team this season, not to make the NI-frickin'-T is just mind-boggling.
I liked the Wojo hire, but that seat better be hot next season - Ellenson or no Ellenson.
Simple, because I don't panic anymore. When I was younger, sure....not anymore. I see it for what it is. A team that had freshmen play almost 50% of the minutes, that competed in a tough league, got to 20 wins, had some excellent wins, some bad losses...that's what freshmen teams do.
His seat will not be hot next season. He inherited a mess from Buzz, who bailed partly because he wasn't wanted and partly because he knew what he had recruited were the wrong pieces. Buzz was never a good general manager when it came to high school talent evaluation. Sure, he did ok with DG....everyone knew VB's talents to lets not go overboard there. Let's hope Wojo is a good talent evaluator, I don't know.
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 10:59:18 AM
With the talent on this team this season, not to make the NI-frickin'-T is just mind-boggling.
I keep hearing this but don't understand it. I don't think our team is very talented right now. I think they have a lot of potential, all the players have high ceilings (except for Wally who makes up for it by being able to jump through the ceiling) but talent to me talks about what level a player is at right now. Do people really believe that this team was an NCAA team but Wojo is so bad a coach that he held them back?
Our team wasn't good enough for the NCAA this season (they were good enough for the NIT but scheduling and AQs screwed us). Give em a year to grow up and add Howard, Hauser, Rowsey, and a potential grad transfer (assuming HE goes pro) and they will be.
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 11:15:50 AM
A "little" weak? Really. "Marquette also played a non-conference schedule ranked 330th out of 351 teams." http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/371940711.html
Take all the personal shots at me you want, but try to include some facts.
The schedule was made up for a team that was very inexperienced. Looking in the mirror it should have been stronger, and I will admit that. Again, Wojo is not in control of the schedule. I'm sure he has input but it's not solely his responsibility.
I apologize for the cheap shot. I am losing my tolerance for posters who would short circuit the rebuilding process for short term gain.
The biggest reason MU did not make the NIT (this year) is that the NCAA took over the NIT. They have decided that it is a consolation prize for mid and small majors that screwed the pooch in their conference tournament. MU is a better team than some NIT teams, but losing conference champs took many spots.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 14, 2016, 11:14:19 AM
Fair enough - when I see the people who are supposed to be the adults in the room over-react and essentially leave the program with a similar result you would expect from an NCAA sanction - I place my blame elsewhere.
If it were as bad as you paint they should have gone the decisive route and fired him -- but they didn't - they were too weak to fire him because he was winning and instead punished him passive aggressively.
Leaders make decisions...and there is a reason some of those leaders are gone
Agreed....and Buzz was also one of those leaders...and he, is also gone. He left the program in worse shape than the gift he inherited, which is sad.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 10:46:54 AM
Give me a break. He's had one recruiting class, so he hasn't had 2 years to bring in talent. The first year was grab whatever you can in a graduate transfer.
48% of our minutes this year played by freshmen.
Some of you guys are just pissy about not making the post season 3 straight years.....well you can blame the guy in Virginia for that.
Here's your break--you just made my point. 48% of the minutes were played by his talented recruits. And the result was marginal improvement from last year's debacle. One of those 48%ers is an NBA lottery pick.
And the results were: a third consecutive year with no tourney--not even the NI frickinT.
Wojo's ass needs to feel the heat. Not excuses and contract extensions. I blame the phony cowboy for plenty--but not now. Oh, I get it--it still is Bush's fault.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 14, 2016, 02:00:33 PM
Here's your break--you just made my point. 48% of the minutes were played by his talented recruits. And the result was marginal improvement from last year's debacle. One of those 48%ers is an NBA lottery pick.
And the results were: a third consecutive year with no tourney--not even the NI frickinT.
Wojo's ass needs to feel the heat. Not excuses and contract extensions. I blame the phony cowboy for plenty--but not now. Oh, I get it--it still is Bush's fault.
Talented....but freshmen. Some guy you may have heard of once said the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Also zero seniors on this team.
It matters....context is everything. I'll be happy to get on Wojo when the time is appropriate...this early in, that time has not arrived.
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 10:59:18 AM
I'm just mystified how anyone ISN'T pushing the panic button right now.
With the talent on this team this season, not to make the NI-frickin'-T is just mind-boggling.
I liked the Wojo hire, but that seat better be hot next season - Ellenson or no Ellenson.
Because panicking solves nothing. It just makes one look and/or sound immature and idiotic.
And it's nice to see another hollow threat here on Scoop.
If Wojo's seat isn't hot next year, what are you going to do? Run into mommy's room and cry? Circulate a petition for everybody to be fired? Stop buying game tickets? Get Cliven Bundy to take over The Al? What?
Quote from: MU82 on March 14, 2016, 02:11:16 PM
Because panicking solves nothing. It just makes one look and/or sound immature and idiotic.
And it's nice to see another hollow threat here on Scoop.
If Wojo's seat isn't hot next year, what are you going to do? Run into mommy's room and cry? Circulate a petition for everybody to be fired? Stop buying game tickets? Get Cliven Bundy to take over The Al? What?
Immature and idiotic applies to the poster who relies only on ad hominem attacks rather than supporting logic.
My threat isn't empty. I don't have to shell out year after year for season tickets and seat licenses to watch what MU has been putting on the floor the last three seasons.
All excuses aside, this was a talented team that underachieved miserably. If MU doesn't recognize that reality, certainly the fans and the recruits will. Certainly, you don't have to be Cliven Bundy to notice all the empty seats during a season when MU had an NBA lottery pick playing for the team.
What happens next year when HE is gone? It better be some coaching that gets the team to overachieve.
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 02:34:04 PM
My threat isn't empty. I don't have to shell out year after year for season tickets and seat licenses to watch what MU has been putting on the floor the last three seasons.
The horror! Show some mercy! I'm sure MU is quaking their boots!
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 02:34:04 PM
Immature and idiotic applies to the poster who relies only on ad hominem attacks rather than supporting logic.
The irony here is palpable.
Quote from: 3Mer on March 14, 2016, 02:34:04 PM
My threat isn't empty. I don't have to shell out year after year for season tickets and seat licenses to watch what MU has been putting on the floor the last three seasons.
See ya!
It better be some coaching that gets the team to overachieve.
Nice. One more threat for the road!
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 02:46:15 PM
I'm sure MU is quaking their boots!
You're right. You razor sharp wit is overwhelming. Why would MU be worried about three consecutive lousy years and the corresponding attendance that goes along with it?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 13, 2016, 10:36:21 PM
Gee, that rant was worth it's own thread. What, you couldn't have just added "+1" to one of the other bitter betty rants?
What, you couldn't have just merged this thread with one of the other bitter betty rants?
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 02:46:15 PM
The horror! Show some mercy! I'm sure MU is quaking their boots!
For a single STH, probably not. But, I gotta think the bean counters at what passes for O'Hara Hall today have some concern over the net profitability of the basketball team if the current slide isn't arrested soon.
The fact remains that we have had three very unsatisfying years in a row after several very high performing seasons. Losses on the floor translate into losses of cash flow. The fastest way for Wojo to find his seatwarmer turned to the high position would be for there to be continued drop-off in season tickets, contribution to the B&G fund and loss of local interest.
Trust me, the Jesuits may have taken a personal vow of poverty, but they understand money as well as any Fortune 500 CEO does!
I don't think Coach Wojo is even close to this point, yet. But it's coming if the cash flow slows.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 02:10:13 PM
Talented....but freshmen. Some guy you may have heard of once said the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Also zero seniors on this team.
It matters....context is everything. I'll be happy to get on Wojo when the time is appropriate...this early in, that time has not arrived.
As they said on the Selection Show yesterday, this season was about Seniors rather than Freshmen this year. And, MU's juniors were not that experienced eith (along with Luke coming off shoulder surgery). Just what it is.
Quote from: dgies9156 on March 14, 2016, 03:05:21 PM
For a single STH, probably not. But, I gotta think the bean counters at what passes for O'Hara Hall today have some concern over the net profitability of the basketball team if the current slide isn't arrested soon.
The fact remains that we have had three very unsatisfying years in a row after several very high performing seasons. Losses on the floor translate into losses of cash flow. The fastest way for Wojo to find his seatwarmer turned to the high position would be for there to be continued drop-off in season tickets, contribution to the B&G fund and loss of local interest.
Trust me, the Jesuits may have taken a personal vow of poverty, but they understand money as well as any Fortune 500 CEO does!
I don't think Coach Wojo is even close to this point, yet. But it's coming if the cash flow slows.
I really don't think so. Bean counters know that attendance at live sporting events is down at every venue, across all levels, in every kind of sport. MU isn't losing attendance any faster than the average sports team. They also know that once the team starts winning, the casual fans will come running back.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 14, 2016, 03:29:44 PM
I really don't think so. Bean counters know that attendance at live sporting events is down at every venue, across all levels, in every kind of sport. MU isn't losing attendance any faster than the average sports team. They also know that once the team starts winning, the casual fans will come running back.
Disagree with a lot of that.
I tried to do a quick google check of declining attendance. NFL was down 4.5% since 2007. MLB just had 7th highest year. College football bowls -8% over 5 years. Maybe you have other data on attendance, feel free to add.
From 2010 to 2015, MU's lowest attended game (likely zero walk ups):
2010 - Tues 12/7 vs Texas A&M-CC - 13,505
2015 - Wednesday 12/2 vs Grambling State - 11,618
So .. down -14%. That's quite a bit more than those other examples. Guarantee we lose another X hundred next season, maybe a ton, frankly.
I've posted this before .. I do not think MU's attendance decrease will recover much in the future and will likely continue to decline, (and to your point, at least on -average of all sporting events declines.)
New season ticket holders come from two areas: Relatively new grads, and perhaps folks who dropped their tickets before.
The newish grads? The past 3 years have been awful for students .. no post season, very few bright spots .. I'd wager lowest student section attendance in 15+ years. This upcoming generation of potential ticket buyers .. do not have the fever -- nor the dollars.
As for the "droppers" .. they are not coming back in meaningful numbers. They dropped for a variety of reasons, but they made a decision to tank their investment in B&G points and aren't going to start from zero again. They'll come to games, but just buy upper deckers, or scalp a few and sit in the lower bowl. And the new arena will have more lower seats, helping lower the cost of scalped tickets in the future.
As for casual fans and walk-up sales .. in the Old Big East, maybe. In the NBE, even if MU gets hot .. you're not going to see significant gains on the Butler/Creighton/Prov/SJU/DePaul vs. MU game by casual walk-up fans buying tickets.
Not to mention... Millenials are extremely particular with where they spend what disposable income they do have a few years removed from college, and live sporting events is much further down the list than it was for Gen X. When I graduated college, the first thing I did was buy season tickets for the Brewers... granted, it was a 20-game package in the field bleachers so it only set me back $400 in total (plus I sold my opening day tix for nearly half of that), but that was a pretty big moment for me. Now days, you have to give the graduates free beer just to get them in the door.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 02:10:13 PM
Talented....but freshmen. Some guy you may have heard of once said the best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Also zero seniors on this team.
It matters....context is everything. I'll be happy to get on Wojo when the time is appropriate...this early in, that time has not arrived.
How about this context. Three straight years with no tourney, ant the last 2 are on Wojo, and his illustrious Duke pedigree. I did not say get rid of Wojo, just start applying the pressure. So far, all that has been offered is a contract extension and kissass excuses. Not to mention that attendance is slipping. For over 2 million Zoidies in salary, perks up the wazoo and a huge budget, more should be expected than "we have a young team."
All I know is that giving up 90 points a game will not get us many wins.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 11:23:05 AM
Simple, because I don't panic anymore. When I was younger, sure....not anymore. I see it for what it is. A team that had freshmen play almost 50% of the minutes, that competed in a tough league, got to 20 wins, had some excellent wins, some bad losses...that's what freshmen teams do.
His seat will not be hot next season. He inherited a mess from Buzz, who bailed partly because he wasn't wanted and partly because he knew what he had recruited were the wrong pieces. Buzz was never a good general manager when it came to high school talent evaluation. Sure, he did ok with DG....everyone knew VB's talents to lets not go overboard there. Let's hope Wojo is a good talent evaluator, I don't know.
I feel like JFB was a fairly decent "get" for Buzz
Quote from: Johnny B on March 14, 2016, 12:00:08 AM
it's just getting difficult staying interested and caring. We're losing are best player and bringing in one decent player next year. I just don't see where this gets much better but we'll see Ryan.
Are you just trolling at this point? MU grad here and just honestly there are not very many employable folks misusing words like this even casually.
This is purely advice for something to polish up on your end before the "real world"
Quote from: Grayson Allen on March 14, 2016, 04:46:13 PM
Are you just trolling at this point? MU grad here and just honestly there are not very many employable folks misusing words like this even casually.
This is purely advice for something to polish up on your end before the "real world"
O, leeve himm aloan!!!
Quote from: willie warrior on March 14, 2016, 04:35:08 PM
How about this context. Three straight years with no tourney, ant the last 2 are on Wojo, and his illustrious Duke pedigree. I did not say get rid of Wojo, just start applying the pressure. So far, all that has been offered is a contract extension and kissass excuses. Not to mention that attendance is slipping. For over 2 million Zoidies in salary, perks up the wazoo and a huge budget, more should be expected than "we have a young team."
I'm quite sure he is applying his own pressure and demands good results. I hardly think he is one that isn't. Two years, despite his Duke pedigree means nothing in my opinion. First year, not his guys. Second year, his guys but all freshmen. Process. No short cuts.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 04:56:59 PM
I'm quite sure he is applying his own pressure and demands good results. I hardly think he is one that isn't. Two years, despite his Duke pedigree means nothing in my opinion. First year, not his guys. Second year, his guys but all freshmen. Process. No short cuts.
I agree with Chicos. That alone speaks volumes.
The fact that we have a guy with pedigree and ambition takes care of the motivation. This isn't a washed up dude at the end of his career; Wojo spent every day of his life since he was 18 working for Coach K as a part of the most successful basketball program of the modern era. There's no way he's even close to fine with this.
If this is keeping the casual fan up at night, imagine having your personal legacy and reputation tied to the results.
Wojo is going to do great for MU.
Just like Johnny Dawkins
Quote from: Grayson Allen on March 14, 2016, 04:42:09 PM
I feel like JFB was a fairly decent "get" for Buzz
He was, he was also a transfer in. Like I said, Buzz did well when players were ready made, bodies developed, etc. Not so great with high school kids, with a few exceptions.
I think it's great that Wojo is bringing in high character guys, but you know what... character doesn't win basketball games. Talent does. And Wojo's job is to win basketball games. So when/if Henry declares for the NBA draft, we lose our best player and top rebounder and return everybody else from a team that missed out on not only the NCAA but NIT. Next year doesn't look too promising. I'm starting to worry about our beloved program.
JUST WIN BABY
Quote from: Al Davis on March 14, 2016, 05:31:00 PM
I think it's great that Wojo is bringing in high character guys, but you know what... character doesn't win basketball games. Talent does. And Wojo's job is to win basketball games. So when/if Henry declares for the NBA draft, we lose our best player and top rebounder and return everybody else from a team that missed out on not only the NCAA but NIT. Next year doesn't look too promising. I'm starting to worry about our beloved program.
JUST WIN BABY
Wrong. This isn't professional sports. His job, at MU at least, is to win and not put the university in a bad position...that's where Buzz failed, he didn't get the second part. If you win and keep kids off the evening news, off the police blotter, that's fine. If you don't, go coach at Va Tech, or Louisville, or Kentucky, or somewhere else....it isn't going to be accepted at MU.
Sorry Al
actually college sports is a lot like professional sports and you're naive to think otherwise. If you don't think every major college football and college basketball team has underhanded things going on you're kidding yourself. It's a matter of the extent of the cheating. We get it-you hate Buzz. You think Saint Al was getting those kids from New York for the weather.
Quote from: RocketRodGrosse on March 14, 2016, 05:42:35 PM
actually college sports is a lot like professional sports and you're naive to think otherwise. If you don't think every major college football and college basketball team has underhanded things going on you're kidding yourself. It's a matter of the extent of the cheating. We get it-you hate Buzz. You think Saint Al was getting those kids from New York for the weather.
Well, they couldn't exactly go to Lexington and play for a white supremacist named Adolph now, could they?
Quote from: RocketRodGrosse on March 14, 2016, 05:42:35 PM
actually college sports is a lot like professional sports and you're naive to think otherwise. If you don't think every major college football and college basketball team has underhanded things going on you're kidding yourself. It's a matter of the extent of the cheating. We get it-you hate Buzz. You think Saint Al was getting those kids from New York for the weather.
I worked at three schools athletic departments...KU, IU, MU...I'm quite aware. I'm also quite aware there are degrees to everything and one can be successful without the nonsense, or at least limiting it to a minimum. No dept is pure, but not every dept has to deal with the drip drip drip we had to either.
There is also a distinct difference in practice times, the requirement to go to class, stay eligible, etc...which should be obvious. Remember that 70%to 80% of alumni at most schools don't give a damn about their sports programs....it's a university after all.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 05:26:33 PM
He was, he was also a transfer in. Like I said, Buzz did well when players were ready made, bodies developed, etc. Not so great with high school kids, with a few exceptions.
Jimmy f*cking Butler is your example of this?! My god chicos, there's such a thing as having an agenda and then there's just utter trash. Did you watch jimmy butler as a sophomore when he transferred in?? Just f*cking stop man. Ridiculous
Quote from: Grayson Allen on March 14, 2016, 05:02:19 PM
I agree with Chicos. That alone speaks volumes.
The fact that we have a guy with pedigree and ambition takes care of the motivation. This isn't a washed up dude at the end of his career; Wojo spent every day of his life since he was 18 working for Coach K as a part of the most successful basketball program of the modern era. There's no way he's even close to fine with this.
If this is keeping the casual fan up at night, imagine having your personal legacy and reputation tied to the results.
Wojo is going to do great for MU.
Or not...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2016, 11:35:20 PM
My God....3 dam <sic> years? Plumitting <sic> you say? we're losing are <sic> identity.
Fire your teachers you had growing up
You really have a lot of free time this week. I recommend some Mama Juana for you.
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 14, 2016, 10:17:19 PM
You really have a lot of free time this week. I recommend some Mama Juana for you.
Hah. That's a +1 for most people posting here, including myself (the trip to Belize wore off fast).
Back to reality this week.
Sucks
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on March 14, 2016, 04:12:59 PM
From 2010 to 2015, MU's lowest attended game (likely zero walk ups):
2010 - Tues 12/7 vs Texas A&M-CC - 13,505
2015 - Wednesday 12/2 vs Grambling State - 11,618
How many idiots out there thought we were playing TEXAS A&M? ;)
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 14, 2016, 10:06:52 PM
Jimmy f*cking Butler is your example of this?! My god chicos, there's such a thing as having an agenda and then there's just utter trash. Did you watch jimmy butler as a sophomore when he transferred in?? Just f*cking stop man. Ridiculous
Was Butler not a transfer in? Was he not a Junior College All American? Was he already a more mature, seasoned, veteran of college basketball than any high school kid that plays at MU for the first time?
Yes, I watched him....the same kid that Kentucky wanted. A good player, and he kept getting better, but he was already a good player when he got to MU. I'm not saying he did't develop, I'm saying Buzz did better with kids that already played at other schools or JUCOs....do you disagree with this?
If you disagree, fine...tell me why. In my opinion his work with transfers and JUCOs is different than those with high school kids. My opinion is because these kids already had 1 or 2 years under their belts...they were more of a proven commodity, easier to determine their production than high school kids. Again, feel free to disagree.
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 14, 2016, 10:17:19 PM
You really have a lot of free time this week. I recommend some Mama Juana for you.
+1....enjoy it. Today was mostly Bloody Marys, kind of the resort's specialty.
I don't think there's any room for debate that Buzz did better with kids that were transferring in. He built the program on 2 and 3 year guys. That's fine if you can sustain it and keep bringing those guys in, but when it came to his high school recruits, the results weren't as good.
Now to his credit, 2013 was his deepest run and he did that without any JUCO players. Blue, Cadougan, Jamil (though a transfer), Davante, Otule, all were 4-6 year guys. Really the only short-term fix on that team was Lockett, who played 3 for ASU first.
How many misses did Buzz have out of his JUCOs? Fulce because of injuries? McKay because he didn't play here? At the end of the day, Buycks, Crowder, Jimmy, and DJO all went on to play in the league. That's an incredible track record. Compare that to misses on guys like Jamail Jones, Erik Williams, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, all top-100 guys that never really panned out.
I'd say Buzz was probably around 40-50% on his four year high school players and 80-90% on JUCOs and transfers. There's no shame in that. He build a successful, winning program, but it's hard to sustain if you can't keep bringing those kids in. Maybe if administration hadn't tightened the reins on JUCOs, Buzz would still be here and still succeeding with 2 and 3 year guys. But things changed and he couldn't change with them. He's in a better situation for him now, and Marquette admin is happier with the way we are handling things now. Isn't that good enough for everyone involved?
Quote from: vacinator on March 13, 2016, 11:59:08 PM
Agree 100%. MU needs to get stronger! Hopefully Wojo got that message.
I'm sure if you seen it from your seat, Wojo seat is a little Closer.
Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).
Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.
So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward
I think Wojo is lucky he landed HE -- it demonstrates one of the positives I have seen which gives me hope for the future (recruiting & skill development).
We would have been terrible without HE this year and likely would have taken a step back.
I feel like the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement is good, but certainly not ahead of where we need to be to consistently be in the tourney. The goal is absolute -- the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement are the things Wojo has some lee-way with as long as he keeps recruiting studs.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 16, 2016, 08:10:11 AM
I think Wojo is lucky he landed HE -- it demonstrates one of the positives I have seen which gives me hope for the future (recruiting & skill development).
We would have been terrible without HE this year and likely would have taken a step back.
I feel like the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement is good, but certainly not ahead of where we need to be to consistently be in the tourney. The goal is absolute -- the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement are the things Wojo has some lee-way with as long as he keeps recruiting studs.
I'm of two minds on that. It would come down to what PF we got instead of Henry. Henry was great this season, but the offense could really bog down with him in there and he was pretty bad on D....not saying we would have been better without him but I don't think we would be any where near as bad as last year even without him. Also, we'd have a PF that theoretically would be playing next year instead of hoping to pick one up on the grad transfer market.
On the other hand, Henry was great this season.
Glad we got Henry.
Wasn't it only a "risk" if he passed on a very good, top-30-ish, not-likely-1-and-doner so he could give the scholarship to Henry?
Quote from: MU82 on March 16, 2016, 08:16:37 AM
Glad we got Henry.
Wasn't it only a "risk" if he passed on a very good, top-30-ish, not-likely-1-and-doner so he could give the scholarship to Henry?
That's the only basketball risk....I think it was a big risk from a PR perspective simply because expectations got to the point of insanity(I'm as guilty as anyone else).
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:19:26 AM
That's the only basketball risk....I think it was a big risk from a PR perspective simply because expectations got to the point of insanity(I'm as guilty as anyone else).
If success and expectations are now a risk - sign me up for a new coach.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2016, 11:28:41 PM
How many idiots out there thought we were playing TEXAS A&M? ;)
IIRC, I'd checked a 2nd weeknight game and it was +400. So .. likely not.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 16, 2016, 08:21:07 AM
If success and expectations are now a risk - sign me up for a new coach.
Unrealistic expectations are if you are trying to rebuild a program.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).
Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.
So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward
I don't think Wojo is only trying to build long term. He wants and is trying to win right now. He just doesn't have the horses to do it yet. Let's not forget, Henry wasn't the only "quick fix" he recruited. He went hard after Damion Lee and Shonn Miller. If he got one of them, we win a minimum of 3 more games. He gets both? We're probably talking 6 more wins and us wearing dancing shoes.
And as much handwringing has gone over Wojo and jucos, lets not forget that he's gone after some jucos. He just hasn't landed any yet. I'm sure Wojo cooled on some of them but there were at least two we made big runs at.
I don't think there's any risk to signing a top 5 kid. I get the argument about artificially accelerating the rebuilding process, but I think the only ones who did that are us idiots here on scoop.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:29:24 AM
Unrealistic expectations are if you are trying to rebuild a program.
I agree if you are using the fringe/'fire wojo' posters as the average fan. Personally I think most are left with a mild disappointment this year and questions about 'how long will this rebuild take' because we are losing our best player.
Realistically though his seat is cool and most, while not feeling super confident yet, are willing to give him time. The admin is thrilled if we go by their extension as a guide. The reality is that Wojo has somewhere between 4-5 years to prove himself regardless of what happened this year. He needs to show progress.
HE is only positive in my opinion. Spinning it into a negative is really tough in my mind when he did nothing but make the team better. Turning it into a negative is interesting academically -- I just don't see it.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:19:26 AM
That's the only basketball risk....I think it was a big risk from a PR perspective simply because expectations got to the point of insanity(I'm as guilty as anyone else).
I think it was a PR plus, not a minus.
"Look, Marquette can get a 1-and-done, too. And under Wojo and his staff, he improved as the year went on."
Fans of a historically good program always have high expectations. If we "only" had a top-20 recruiting class without Henry rather than a top-10 with him, fans still would have had high expectations.
As high? No. But high nonetheless.
Henry was/is only a positive by any measure, IMHO.
I think the FR were as good as to be expected But the only player on the team that showed improvement from last year was JJ.
I agree that WOJO does need to get a more experienced Coaching Staff. That said if you look at winnable games our record was good. I think the coaching/Players almost lost a few games we should have won late, but the only game that I look back and think we should have won that we lost was Depaul and maybe Belmont. There were probably at least 2-3 we should have lost and won so that evens out. The bigger issue for me was getting blown out, and the generally poor Defense.
The recruiting has been good.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).
Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.
So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward
There is an argument to be made to only go after 3 and 4 star players if you want roster consistency. It's a philosophy that some coaches adhere to. For Wojo, I think he had to go after HE (I'm still not 100% he is leaving, but certainly 80%) for a number of reasons
Wisconsin product
Show recruiting chops to others
Helps to land other recruits potentially
Wasn't guaranteed to be a 1 and done
Etc
As LSU has shown, MU, etc...it's great to have a 5 star player, but if you have a lot of youth around them it's going to be a tough slog. Some schools in this state have landed 5 star players and they redshirted....just as an example.
Quote from: Benny B on March 14, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Not to mention... Millenials are extremely particular with where they spend what disposable income they do have a few years removed from college, and live sporting events is much further down the list than it was for Gen X. When I graduated college, the first thing I did was buy season tickets for the Brewers... granted, it was a 20-game package in the field bleachers so it only set me back $400 in total (plus I sold my opening day tix for nearly half of that), but that was a pretty big moment for me. Now days, you have to give the graduates free beer just to get them in the door.
When I was at MU we would sit in the bleachers at the Ain a Hey Sports Palace for less than a buck. I think the entrance was called the "Knot Hole" Gate. Not sure what that meant but it was usually easy to sneak a few in even if it was shorts and t shirts weather.
Back then the Brewers were in the AL East and all of those teams were really good. Since most of us were from the east coast we had a reason to go, other than the beer.
I'm glad we hired Wojo and not someone like say, Little Ricky Pitino. We need an experienced
assistant coach on our payroll soon.
Dawkins is gone at Stanford. He couldn't create the Duke of the West (which Montgomery arguably was able to almost do before jump ship to the Dubs).
Wojo needs more time. He has the pipelines in place and is going to face stiffer comp for recruits with Gard in Madtown.
Success is built by trusting in someone who is doing the job the right way and supporting him.
We will be dancing soon.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).
Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.
So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward
I can agree with that.
I also would add that maybe Henry was too good. In that having the best Freshman who ever played at Marquette and not getting to any tourney is extra frustrating to fans like myself
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 16, 2016, 02:42:35 PM
Wojo needs more time. He has the pipelines in place and is going to face stiffer comp for recruits with Gard in Madtown.
We'll see. He has yet to bring in his own recruits. Not that he should have by this point. But I'm going to hold off worrying about recruiting against Madison until I see how Gard can do on his own.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 16, 2016, 04:40:28 PM
We'll see. He has yet to bring in his own recruits. Not that he should have by this point. But I'm going to hold off worrying about recruiting against Madison until I see how Gard can do on his own.
????
Quote from: mu03eng on March 16, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).
Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.
So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward
Sorry, this is absurd and I'm glad this isn't Wojo's thought process.
People keep using long term vision and rebuilding the same way it applies in professional sports. It's not a good comparison. Even if you disregard one and dones, transfers, grad transfers, JUCOs, early entries etc., you're still talking about guys you only have playing four years max, much different than the pros. To simply write off 25-50% of a guy's eligibility is bad short term planning. No one's saying fill the team with one and two year players. But if you want a full team (and balanced classes) sometimes you're going to have to look at transfers, JUCOs, and grad transfers. And good news: they can contribute just as much as four year players to the success of your team.
Frankly, some of this talk about Wojo's planning on Scoop sounds borderline insulting to the man's competitive spirit. While I do have some criticisms of him, a desire to win isn't one of them. And now we're seriously lamenting the downside of going after the highest rated recruit in 30 years because it raised expectations? We probably would've gone around .500 at best without Henry, and you think that would've fostered more patience? Only for the hardcore optimists.
MU puts too much money and resources into the basketball program to be afraid of fan's expecting the team to be a tournament team, and if an MU coach ever thinks like that he should be packing his bags. I'm glad that's not Wojo's MO.
MU isn't Kentucky or UNC where you can get a big name coach just by dropping someone when they're not "meeting expectations of the fans."
I wonder where this program would have been if Wojo wasn't here. Not better off, I think.
He deserves a good 8-10 years until he can be evaluated: get his recruits in; establish a culture that can be evaluated over a longer period of time; recover from down years; etc.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 16, 2016, 06:50:48 PM
MU isn't Kentucky or UNC where you can get a big name coach just by dropping someone when they're not "meeting expectations of the fans."
I wonder where this program would have been if Wojo wasn't here. Not better off, I think.
He deserves a good 8-10 years until he can be evaluated: get his recruits in; establish a culture that can be evaluated over a longer period of time; recover from down years; etc.
MU isn't a school that can get a big name coach, period. And I'm not talking about just 'meeting expectations of the fans'. I'm talking about being afraid of raising them.
As for the 8-10 years, well, even Chicos doesn't go that far.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 16, 2016, 06:50:48 PM
He deserves a good 8-10 years until he can be evaluated: get his recruits in; establish a culture that can be evaluated over a longer period of time; recover from down years; etc.
I'm all about respecting the process, but even I think 8-10 years is excessive. If we have no kind of postseason after year 4, I'm ready to move on (barring extreme circumstances)
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 14, 2016, 04:36:45 PM
All I know is that giving up 90 points a game will not get us many wins.
I'm pretty confident that Wojo can remain a quality recruiter and that's a major factor in being able to have success in any college sport.
Whether he can get those players to play sound offense and defense going forward is something i'm uncertain about.
One thing being said a lot in this thread though which i do think is overstated is that the team won 20 games. Given how weak the schedule was, that was about as hollow of a 20 win season as it gets for a program not in a terrible mid-major conference.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 16, 2016, 07:31:09 PM
I'm all about respecting the process, but even I think 8-10 years is excessive. If we have no kind of postseason after year 4, I'm ready to move on (barring extreme circumstances)
For me, I would say no NCAA tournament by year 5. I'd prefer continued progress (even minimal) resulting in a NCAA tournament in year 5 over 3 straight NIT bids the next three years.
And yes, I understand if we show progress over the next 3 years we'll likely make an NIT before the NCAA tournament.
If we aren't in the nit after next year and the big dance after year 4, we should start to wonder.
Quote from: muwar2003 on March 16, 2016, 08:43:01 PM
If we aren't in the nit after next year and the big dance after year 4, we should start to wonder.
Part of me wishes the thread would go away...I really feel Wojo is gonna make so much of Scoop eat crow, and I want him as our program's steward for a long, long time.
Yet, the other side is that Wojo wants this, he wants to be dogged and questioned, to a point. He loves the high standards of our program and its fans. And I think many of our past coaches would agree that, Scoop critics notwithstanding, we as a fanbase are a pretty rational, patient bunch. In this sense, it's good NOT to be Kentucky.
Quote from: Small Orange Soda on March 16, 2016, 07:30:30 PM
MU isn't a school that can get a big name coach, period. And I'm not talking about just 'meeting expectations of the fans'. I'm talking about being afraid of raising them.
As for the 8-10 years, well, even Chicos doesn't go that far.
Are you kidding? Wojo is a big name coach. Shaka is a big name coach. Howland is a big name coach.
Who makes the list of big name coaches we can't get?
Quote from: Grayson Allen on March 17, 2016, 12:51:49 AM
Are you kidding? Wojo is a big name coach.
Wojo's name is bigger than most.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on March 17, 2016, 12:51:49 AM
Are you kidding? Wojo is a big name coach. Shaka is a big name coach. Howland is a big name coach.
Who makes the list of big name coaches we can't get?
Wojo's name is bigger than his experience - but would agree there is name recognition. None of those other coaches accepted a job at MU. Prior to Wojo, our coaches were Williams, Crean and Deane. I think its pretty fair to say we have not landed big name coaches.
The day we land Shaka or someone like Sean/Archie Miller then things have changed.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 17, 2016, 06:50:25 AMThe day we land Shaka or someone like Sean/Archie Miller then things have changed.
Wait, you don't think we could have landed Archie? Dayton's coach?
I
clearly don't know anything about how the whole coach search works, but it seems to me the administration got the guy they wanted, not the one they were stuck with (excluding Shaka--think that full story will ever be known?).
Quote from: Utile et Dulce on March 17, 2016, 06:56:47 AM
Wait, you don't think we could have landed Archie? Dayton's coach?
I clearly don't know anything about how the whole coach search works, but it seems to me the administration got the guy they wanted, not the one they were stuck with (excluding Shaka--think that full story will ever be known?).
No I don't think we could have landed Archie and my guess is he declined to be considered because he is waiting for his dream opportunity -- like his brother did.
When Buzz left, I made a short list of candidates from the assistant ranks. I left Wojo's name off because I thought he was unattai'nable. When Marquette landed him, I was ecstatic. He is definitely a big name coach.
Coaches either come from one of three sources. First, you get the established coach at another school. That would have been Cuonzo. Second, you get an unemployed veteran head coach. That was someone like Howland. The downside is that they likely lost their job for a reason. Third, you go for an assistant who hasn't had the chance to prove themselves in that role yet. I truly think Wojo, at least on paper, was the best possible candidate in the country from the third category.
As far as expectations...NIT next year, NCAAs in 2018, sustai'nable success in 2019 and beyond, making the tournament 75% of the time and making the occasional deep run. If there's no postseason next year, I do think the seat starts to get warm, but I still think he gets through 2017-18 regardless, and if we end up a year behind that schedule, I still think he's safe enough.
Brew - I agree -- and think we did very well.
Your first category though has two sub categories -- the types that bounce from P5 program to another (i.e. Martin) and the one's who are on the rise -- at a sub-par program that is ready for the big job (Archie at Dayton | Sean at Xavier | Shaka at VCU).
I would like to be in the running for that type of coach some day - likely wishful thinking. Still risk in any hire, but less than the assistant route.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 16, 2016, 08:32:18 AM
I don't think Wojo is only trying to build long term. He wants and is trying to win right now. He just doesn't have the horses to do it yet. Let's not forget, Henry wasn't the only "quick fix" he recruited. He went hard after Damion Lee and Shonn Miller. If he got one of them, we win a minimum of 3 more games. He gets both? We're probably talking 6 more wins and us wearing dancing shoes.
And as much handwringing has gone over Wojo and jucos, lets not forget that he's gone after some jucos. He just hasn't landed any yet. I'm sure Wojo cooled on some of them but there were at least two we made big runs at.
I don't think there's any risk to signing a top 5 kid. I get the argument about artificially accelerating the rebuilding process, but I think the only ones who did that are us idiots here on scoop.
I agree with all that...they thought they had a really good shot at Lee....if they land him we're dancing as I think we beat Belmont, DePaul and Creighton for sure. And I'm fine with the moves Wojo made, just pointing out how it played with John Q Public who only knows we landed a NBA lottery pick player and then sees us sitting at home again in March. Don't sell the general public short, they can be incredibly idiotic :)
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 16, 2016, 08:40:21 AM
I agree if you are using the fringe/'fire wojo' posters as the average fan. Personally I think most are left with a mild disappointment this year and questions about 'how long will this rebuild take' because we are losing our best player.
Realistically though his seat is cool and most, while not feeling super confident yet, are willing to give him time. The admin is thrilled if we go by their extension as a guide. The reality is that Wojo has somewhere between 4-5 years to prove himself regardless of what happened this year. He needs to show progress.
HE is only positive in my opinion. Spinning it into a negative is really tough in my mind when he did nothing but make the team better. Turning it into a negative is interesting academically -- I just don't see it.
I'd only caution that the general Marquette public is more apathetic to the basketball program than any time in the last 20 years. Additional some movers and shakers within MU (small but somewhat vocal minority) are of the "win now" nothing else matters stance and look at this past year and projections for next year and say "this isn't happening fast enough."
Marquette outlays a ton of cash on the basketball program and it is what the university is most known for at this point, but the current and near future students are definitely drifting away from the program as they are instant gratification types. Marquette already has an issue with alumni not financially supporting the university (only 14% do) if they don't have the basketball program to drive alumni attention the fear is that number could get worse.
For the record I don't share any of these opinions, simply reporting some of what is going on on the ground.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 17, 2016, 07:51:34 AM
I'd only caution that the general Marquette public is more apathetic to the basketball program than any time in the last 20 years. Additional some movers and shakers within MU (small but somewhat vocal minority) are of the "win now" nothing else matters stance and look at this past year and projections for next year and say "this isn't happening fast enough."
Marquette outlays a ton of cash on the basketball program and it is what the university is most known for at this point, but the current and near future students are definitely drifting away from the program as they are instant gratification types. Marquette already has an issue with alumni not financially supporting the university (only 14% do) if they don't have the basketball program to drive alumni attention the fear is that number could get worse.
For the record I don't share any of these opinions, simply reporting some of what is going on on the ground.
Solid insight. It's clear that MU hoops is struggling to capture the attention of students and Milwaukee sports fans. All the empty seats confirm that.
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 17, 2016, 08:06:18 AM
Solid insight. It's clear that MU hoops is struggling to capture the attention of students and Milwaukee sports fans. All the empty seats confirm that.
I do think it's important to remember that Marquette is a pretty small school playing in a big arena. Attendance is down, and it's a cause for concern, but Marquette has what, 2K graduates per year? It's tough for a school that size to consistently fill a 19K seat arena.
Relative to student/alumni base, Marquette's attendance is fantastic compared to similar schools.
Quote from: MuEagle1090 on March 17, 2016, 08:25:00 AM
I do think it's important to remember that Marquette is a pretty small school playing in a big arena. Attendance is down, and it's a cause for concern, but Marquette has what, 2K graduates per year? It's tough for a school that size to consistently fill a 19K seat arena.
Relative to student/alumni base, Marquette's attendance is fantastic compared to similar schools.
Good point. State schools, like those in the Big 10, churn out thousands and thousands of grads every year.
Quote from: Groin_pull on March 17, 2016, 08:43:12 AM
Good point. State schools, like those in the Big 10, churn out thousands and thousands of grads every year.
And state schools have state funding, which is why its critical that a high percentage of alumni be "attached" to the university. Traditionally that attachment has been a successful basketball program.
It's not doom and gloom, National Marquette shows there is still a ton of enthusiasm but next year, if the team isn't successful that would mean an entire class of students hasn't seen a successful season and that erodes long term attachment
Quote from: mu03eng on March 17, 2016, 07:51:34 AM
I'd only caution that the general Marquette public is more apathetic to the basketball program than any time in the last 20 years. Additional some movers and shakers within MU (small but somewhat vocal minority) are of the "win now" nothing else matters stance and look at this past year and projections for next year and say "this isn't happening fast enough."
Marquette outlays a ton of cash on the basketball program and it is what the university is most known for at this point, but the current and near future students are definitely drifting away from the program as they are instant gratification types. Marquette already has an issue with alumni not financially supporting the university (only 14% do) if they don't have the basketball program to drive alumni attention the fear is that number could get worse.
For the record I don't share any of these opinions, simply reporting some of what is going on on the ground.
I am glad to hear this. Personally I think next year is really important for Wojo. I am ok with people making sure that the urgency is felt.
I feel like we all need to step back from the ledge a little bit. A coach missing the tournament and struggling his first two years as a head coach at any Division 1 school is not unheard of. Regardless of whether it was Wojo not being able to hold on to recruits or Buzz leaving the program with most of the talent he had coming in the cupboard was pretty bare. Wojo inherited a 17-15 squad and has gone 33-32 with no tournaments, here is a look at how some pretty successful coaches have done early on.
Calhoun inherited a 12-16 UConn, went 29-33 first two, made tournament in year 4, won championship in year 13 (was 31-18 in first two years at Northeastern)
Boheim inherited a 20-9 Syracuse, went 48-10 first two, made S16 in year 1, won championship in year 27 (first coaching job, inherited tournament team)
Coach K inherited 24-9 Duke, went 27-30 first two, made tournament in year 4, won championship in year 11 (was 34-22 in first two years at Army)
Roy Williams inherited 27-11 NC Kansas, went 49-17 first two, made tournament in year 2 (ineligible in year 1) (first job, won championship in 17th year as coach)
Knight inherited 17-7 Indiana, went 39-14 first two, made tournament in year 2, won championship in year 5 (was 31-16 in first two years at Army)
Self inherited 23-10 Tulsa, went 42-22 first two, made tournament year 2 (Illinois was 22-10 befor he came, 16-38 in first two years at Oral Roberts)
Al inherited 5-21 Marquette, went 22-30 first two, made tournament year 4, won championship in year 13 (was 25-5 first two years at Belmont Abbey)
Crean inherited 14-15 Marquette, went 30-28 first two, made tournament in year 3
JT3 inherited 13-14 Georgetown, went 42-25 first two, made tournament in year 2 (was 32-23 first two years at Princeton)
Jay Wright inherited 18-13 Villanova, went 34-29 first two, made tournament in year 4 (was 19-36 first two years at Hofstra)
Calipari went 27-32 his first two years, made tournament in year 4, won championship in 20th year
Pitino went 38-18 his first two year, made tournament in year 5, won championship in 14th year
Most of these guys, besides Williams and Boeheim, either started at small schools before getting a big program, or had no expectations when they arrived.
If Wojo is not making tournaments consistently by year 4 or 5 then its time to panic. But right now he is going through the early struggles of most younf coaches asked to inherit a program that was in turmoil and/or had major player turnover.
Quote from: Howard's Eagle on March 16, 2016, 08:32:18 AM
I don't think Wojo is only trying to build long term. He wants and is trying to win right now. He just doesn't have the horses to do it yet. Let's not forget, Henry wasn't the only "quick fix" he recruited. He went hard after Damion Lee and Shonn Miller. If he got one of them, we win a minimum of 3 more games. He gets both? We're probably talking 6 more wins and us wearing dancing shoes.
And as much handwringing has gone over Wojo and jucos, lets not forget that he's gone after some jucos. He just hasn't landed any yet. I'm sure Wojo cooled on some of them but there were at least two we made big runs at.
I don't think there's any risk to signing a top 5 kid. I get the argument about artificially accelerating the rebuilding process, but I think the only ones who did that are us idiots here on scoop.
Agree on all points. All coaches are trying to win TODAY. To that end both Wojo and Buzz have pursued grad transfers, jucos and one and dones. You rebuild on the run, and Buzz is really good at it. Wojo is a work in progress. But please - no more BS about "quick fix" and "long term". Any decent coach is quick fix and concentrates most of his efforts on this year and what's left on next.