Two year honeymoon is over

[brewcity77]

I don't think there's any room for debate that Buzz did better with kids that were transferring in. He built the program on 2 and 3 year guys. That's fine if you can sustain it and keep bringing those guys in, but when it came to his high school recruits, the results weren't as good.

Now to his credit, 2013 was his deepest run and he did that without any JUCO players. Blue, Cadougan, Jamil (though a transfer), Davante, Otule, all were 4-6 year guys. Really the only short-term fix on that team was Lockett, who played 3 for ASU first.

How many misses did Buzz have out of his JUCOs? Fulce because of injuries? McKay because he didn't play here? At the end of the day, Buycks, Crowder, Jimmy, and DJO all went on to play in the league. That's an incredible track record. Compare that to misses on guys like Jamail Jones, Erik Williams, Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, all top-100 guys that never really panned out.

I'd say Buzz was probably around 40-50% on his four year high school players and 80-90% on JUCOs and transfers. There's no shame in that. He build a successful, winning program, but it's hard to sustain if you can't keep bringing those kids in. Maybe if administration hadn't tightened the reins on JUCOs, Buzz would still be here and still succeeding with 2 and 3 year guys. But things changed and he couldn't change with them. He's in a better situation for him now, and Marquette admin is happier with the way we are handling things now. Isn't that good enough for everyone involved?

[Loose Cannon]

Agree 100%.  MU needs to get stronger!  Hopefully Wojo got that message.

I'm sure if you seen it from your seat, Wojo seat is a little Closer.

[mu03eng]

Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).

Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.

So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward

I think Wojo is lucky he landed HE -- it demonstrates one of the positives I have seen which gives me hope for the future (recruiting & skill development). 

We would have been terrible without HE this year and likely would have taken a step back. 

I feel like the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement is good, but certainly not ahead of where we need to be to consistently be in the tourney.  The goal is absolute -- the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement are the things Wojo has some lee-way with as long as he keeps recruiting studs.

[mu03eng]

I think Wojo is lucky he landed HE -- it demonstrates one of the positives I have seen which gives me hope for the future (recruiting & skill development). 

We would have been terrible without HE this year and likely would have taken a step back. 

I feel like the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement is good, but certainly not ahead of where we need to be to consistently be in the tourney.  The goal is absolute -- the magnitude and trajectory of the improvement are the things Wojo has some lee-way with as long as he keeps recruiting studs.

I'm of two minds on that. It would come down to what PF we got instead of Henry. Henry was great this season, but the offense could really bog down with him in there and he was pretty bad on D....not saying we would have been better without him but I don't think we would be any where near as bad as last year even without him. Also, we'd have a PF that theoretically would be playing next year instead of hoping to pick one up on the grad transfer market.

On the other hand, Henry was great this season.

[MU82]

Glad we got Henry.

Wasn't it only a "risk" if he passed on a very good, top-30-ish, not-likely-1-and-doner so he could give the scholarship to Henry?

[mu03eng]

Glad we got Henry.

Wasn't it only a "risk" if he passed on a very good, top-30-ish, not-likely-1-and-doner so he could give the scholarship to Henry?

That's the only basketball risk....I think it was a big risk from a PR perspective simply because expectations got to the point of insanity(I'm as guilty as anyone else).

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

That's the only basketball risk....I think it was a big risk from a PR perspective simply because expectations got to the point of insanity(I'm as guilty as anyone else).

If success and expectations are now a risk - sign me up for a new coach.

[mu_hilltopper]

How many idiots out there thought we were playing TEXAS A&M?   

IIRC, I'd checked a 2nd weeknight game and it was +400.  So .. likely not.

[mu03eng]

If success and expectations are now a risk - sign me up for a new coach.

Unrealistic expectations are if you are trying to rebuild a program.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).

Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.

So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward

I don't think Wojo is only trying to build long term. He wants and is trying to win right now. He just doesn't have the horses to do it yet. Let's not forget, Henry wasn't the only "quick fix" he recruited. He went hard after Damion Lee and Shonn Miller. If he got one of them, we win a minimum of 3 more games. He gets both? We're probably talking 6 more wins and us wearing dancing shoes.

And as much handwringing has gone over Wojo and jucos, lets not forget that he's gone after some jucos. He just hasn't landed any yet. I'm sure Wojo cooled on some of them but there were at least two we made big runs at.

I don't think there's any risk to signing a top 5 kid. I get the argument about artificially accelerating the rebuilding process, but I think the only ones who did that are us idiots here on scoop.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Unrealistic expectations are if you are trying to rebuild a program.

I agree if you are using the fringe/'fire wojo' posters as the average fan.  Personally I think most are left with a mild disappointment this year and questions about 'how long will this rebuild take' because we are losing our best player.

Realistically though his seat is cool and most, while not feeling super confident yet, are willing to give him time.  The admin is thrilled if we go by their extension as a guide.  The reality is that Wojo has somewhere between 4-5 years to prove himself regardless of what happened this year.  He needs to show progress.

HE is only positive in my opinion.  Spinning it into a negative is really tough in my mind when he did nothing but make the team better.  Turning it into a negative is interesting academically -- I just don't see it.

 

[MU82]

That's the only basketball risk....I think it was a big risk from a PR perspective simply because expectations got to the point of insanity(I'm as guilty as anyone else).

I think it was a PR plus, not a minus.

"Look, Marquette can get a 1-and-done, too. And under Wojo and his staff, he improved as the year went on."

Fans of a historically good program always have high expectations. If we "only" had a top-20 recruiting class without Henry rather than a top-10 with him, fans still would have had high expectations.

As high? No. But high nonetheless.

Henry was/is only a positive by any measure, IMHO.

[kmwtrucks]

I think the FR were as good as to be expected But the only player on the team that showed improvement from last year was JJ. 

I agree that WOJO does need to get a more experienced Coaching Staff.  That said if you look at winnable games our record was good.  I think the coaching/Players almost lost a few games we should have won late, but the only game that I look back and think we should have won that we lost was Depaul and maybe Belmont.  There were probably at least 2-3 we should have lost and won so that evens out.  The bigger issue for me was getting blown out, and the generally poor Defense. 

The recruiting has been good. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).

Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.

So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward

There is an argument to be made to only go after 3 and 4 star players if you want roster consistency.  It's a philosophy that some coaches adhere to.  For Wojo, I think he had to go after HE (I'm still not 100% he is leaving, but certainly 80%) for a number of reasons

Wisconsin product
Show recruiting chops to others
Helps to land other recruits potentially
Wasn't guaranteed to be a 1 and done
Etc

As LSU has shown, MU, etc...it's great to have a 5 star player, but if  you have a lot of youth around them it's going to be a tough slog.  Some schools in this state have landed 5 star players and they redshirted....just as an example.

[keefe]

Not to mention... Millenials are extremely particular with where they spend what disposable income they do have a few years removed from college, and live sporting events is much further down the list than it was for Gen X.  When I graduated college, the first thing I did was buy season tickets for the Brewers... granted, it was a 20-game package in the field bleachers so it only set me back $400 in total (plus I sold my opening day tix for nearly half of that), but that was a pretty big moment for me.  Now days, you have to give the graduates free beer just to get them in the door.

When I was at MU we would sit in the bleachers at the Ain a Hey Sports Palace for less than a buck. I think the entrance was called the "Knot Hole" Gate. Not sure what that meant but it was usually easy to sneak a few in even if it was shorts and t shirts weather.

Back then the Brewers were in the AL East and all of those teams were really good. Since most of us were from the east coast we had a reason to go, other than the beer.

[MattyWarrior]

I'm glad we hired Wojo and not someone like say, Little Ricky Pitino. We need an experienced
assistant coach on our payroll soon.

[77ncaachamps]

Dawkins is gone at Stanford. He couldn't create the Duke of the West (which Montgomery arguably was able to almost do before jump ship to the Dubs).

Wojo needs more time. He has the pipelines in place and is going to face stiffer comp for recruits with Gard in Madtown.

Success is built by trusting in someone who is doing the job the right way and supporting him.

We will be dancing soon.

[KenoshaWarrior]

Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).

Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.

So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward

I can agree with that.   
I also would add that maybe Henry was too good.  In that having the best Freshman who ever played at Marquette and not getting to any tourney is extra frustrating to fans like myself

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Wojo needs more time. He has the pipelines in place and is going to face stiffer comp for recruits with Gard in Madtown.

We'll see. He has yet to bring in his own recruits. Not that he should have by this point. But I'm going to hold off worrying about recruiting against Madison until I see how Gard can do on his own.

[Loose Cannon]

We'll see. He has yet to bring in his own recruits. Not that he should have by this point. But I'm going to hold off worrying about recruiting against Madison until I see how Gard can do on his own.

????

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

????

Gard has yet to bring in his own recruits.

[Small Orange Soda]

Here's a theory I'll float for you guys and will go into more detail on the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug).

Wojo always has had the long game in mind, building out the team in the right way from a very bare cupboard that Buzz left. It was always going to be slow and steady wins the race. However, after a year there was an opportunity to land a one in done in Henry and Wojo took a calculated risk to trade some of the long term vision for a shot at a quick fix. However it backfired because the hype over Henry and what the team could do this season vastly outstripped reasonable expectations for anyone that understands college basketball in depth. If Henry hadn't come to MU, I think a lot more people would have been a lot more patient with the direct of the program.

So are you going to let the fact that Wojo landed a top 10 recruit color whether the program is heading in the right direction or not? The trajectory is undoubtedly upward

Sorry, this is absurd and I'm glad this isn't Wojo's thought process.

People keep using long term vision and rebuilding the same way it applies in professional sports.  It's not a good comparison.  Even if you disregard one and dones, transfers, grad transfers, JUCOs, early entries etc., you're still talking about guys you only have playing four years max, much different than the pros.  To simply write off 25-50% of a guy's eligibility is bad short term planning.  No one's saying fill the team with one and two year players.  But if you want a full team (and balanced classes) sometimes you're going to have to look at transfers, JUCOs, and grad transfers.  And good news: they can contribute just as much as four year players to the success of your team. 

Frankly, some of this talk about Wojo's planning on Scoop sounds borderline insulting to the man's competitive spirit.  While I do have some criticisms of him, a desire to win isn't one of them.  And now we're seriously lamenting the downside of going after the highest rated recruit in 30 years because it raised expectations?  We probably would've gone around .500 at best without Henry, and you think that would've fostered more patience?  Only for the hardcore optimists.

MU puts too much money and resources into the basketball program to be afraid of fan's expecting the team to be a tournament team, and if an MU coach ever thinks like that he should be packing his bags.  I'm glad that's not Wojo's MO.

[77ncaachamps]

MU isn't Kentucky or UNC where you can get a big name coach just by dropping someone when they're not "meeting expectations of the fans."

I wonder where this program would have been if Wojo wasn't here. Not better off, I think.

He deserves a good 8-10 years until he can be evaluated: get his recruits in; establish a culture that can be evaluated over a longer period of time; recover from down years; etc.

[Small Orange Soda]

MU isn't Kentucky or UNC where you can get a big name coach just by dropping someone when they're not "meeting expectations of the fans."

I wonder where this program would have been if Wojo wasn't here. Not better off, I think.

He deserves a good 8-10 years until he can be evaluated: get his recruits in; establish a culture that can be evaluated over a longer period of time; recover from down years; etc.

MU isn't a school that can get a big name coach, period.  And I'm not talking about just 'meeting expectations of the fans'.  I'm talking about being afraid of raising them.

As for the 8-10 years, well, even Chicos doesn't go that far.