MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: dgies9156 on January 06, 2016, 02:05:18 PM
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In Matty V's postgame notes, there was this little nugget:
Wojciechowski on Henry Ellenson (Wojciechowski is asked about Ellenson after nearly every game by the opposing team's media and always talks about his high ceiling, toughness, preparedness, incredible work ethic, love of the game, etc. Tonight he did the same but also used the words below):
"He's a kid who's unpacked his bags. He loves Marquette, he loves being around our team and he's really dedicated to the game."
I hope unpacked his bags means what I think it means :-)
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In Matty V's postgame notes, there was this little nugget:
Wojciechowski on Henry Ellenson (Wojciechowski is asked about Ellenson after nearly every game by the opposing team's media and always talks about his high ceiling, toughness, preparedness, incredible work ethic, love of the game, etc. Tonight he did the same but also used the words below):
"He's a kid who's unpacked his bags. He loves Marquette, he loves being around our team and he's really dedicated to the game."
I hope unpacked his bags means what I think it means :-)
That he had a change of clothes available when he got back to the hotel in Rhode Island?
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I thought all McD's All Americans were assigned a personal valet to do things like that. Or is that only if they go to UK?
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I thought all McD's All Americans were assigned a personal valet to do things like that. Or is that only if they go to UK?
Is that what they call them these days?
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I thought all McD's All Americans were assigned a personal valet to do things like that. Or is that only if they go to UK?
Squirmy
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I thought all McD's All Americans were assigned a personal valet to do things like that. Or is that only if they go to UK?
Louisville.
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In Matty V's postgame notes, there was this little nugget:
Wojciechowski on Henry Ellenson (Wojciechowski is asked about Ellenson after nearly every game by the opposing team's media and always talks about his high ceiling, toughness, preparedness, incredible work ethic, love of the game, etc. Tonight he did the same but also used the words below):
"He's a kid who's unpacked his bags. He loves Marquette, he loves being around our team and he's really dedicated to the game."
I hope unpacked his bags means what I think it means :-)
It sure seems like Matty V is implying something here, with that lead in.
I'm hoping that being at MU with his brother, enjoying college life, bonding with the team, etc. all convinces him to stick around for one more year, especially if the team falls a little short because of the weak nonconference schedule--maybe wanting a good shot at a big tourney run. Those sorts of sentimental reasons are probably our best shot for him coming back from another year.
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I would pay for personal valet for HE to stay another year. MU would be tough to beat if he were to come back for another year.
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I would pay for personal valet for HE to stay another year. MU would be tough to beat if he were to come back for another year.
Forgot that -- someone just go steal his bags while he is out east this week.
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Henry Ellenson is not coming back next year.
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I think it just means he loves it at MU and has bought into what they are doing.
I seriously doubt it means anything more then that.
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I like this quote from H. Ellenson after the game:
"I knew they waited awhile to get their last shot off, they dribbled a lot of time off and so I knew they had to get a shot up there at the end. I just recognized the time and situation to get over there and make a play."
Smart play...I think he stays one more year because that's the smart thing to do in his position.
The thing for D. Stone on the other hand will involve driving a Mercedes this time next year.
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He might stay. He probably goes. Either way I'll enjoy the ride.
If he does stay though....I don't see anyway that's not a top ten team. All these guys plus a year of experience, minus mache, plus Hauser/rowsey/maybe one more.
Excuse me while I go rosterbate
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Does anyone really believe Wojo is thinking: "How can I drop a coded message to the fanbase to let them know that Henry secretly told me he's staying another season?"
Or is it more likely Wojo is saying Henry is all-in on this particular season, and that's it?
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"Pay my bills", "Pay my Bills"
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Henry Ellenson is not coming back next year.
Stop it. Allow us to delude ourselves. Ignorance is bliss....I choose to believe Wojo is speaking to us here. PHOENIX 2017!!!
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Henry Ellenson is not coming back next year.
source?
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A good reporter would have asked the natural follow up question:
"Did Austin Rivers, Kyrie Irving or Jabari Parker ever unpack their bags?"
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A good reporter would have asked the natural follow up question:
"Did Austin Rivers, Kyrie Irving or Jabari Parker ever unpack their bags?"
Nicely done.
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He might stay. He probably goes. Either way I'll enjoy the ride.
If he does stay though....I don't see anyway that's not a top ten team. All these guys plus a year of experience, minus mache, plus Hauser/rowsey/maybe one more.
Excuse me while I go rosterbate
If Ellenson stayed, we'd be good next year. I'd say certainly a tournament team, and maybe even a ranked team for part or most of the season.
But I don't see how we go from being a bubble team this year to a top 10 team next year....with the exact same guys with one more year of experience. I think we are giving one year of experience too much credit.
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He might stay. He probably goes. Either way I'll enjoy the ride.
If he does stay though....I don't see anyway that's not a top ten team. All these guys plus a year of experience, minus mache, plus Hauser/rowsey/maybe one more.
Excuse me while I go rosterbate
Even though we have yet to prove we are over this 2.5 year hump.
I'm with you. This roster with actual experience is deadly.
Factor in that our 2 additions would be guys who can shoot it. Only makes it even better.
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If Ellenson stayed, we'd be good next year. I'd say certainly a tournament team, and maybe even a ranked team for part or most of the season.
But I don't see how we go from being a bubble team this year to a top 10 team next year....with the exact same guys with one more year of experience. I think we are giving one year of experience too much credit.
You underestimate how much guys jump in production. Look at just Luke right now. Henry and Haanif ain't getting worse. Duane has now shown he can play starter or bench roles with starter minutes. We lack expierience. That would be huge.
Plus Rowsey and Hauser bring everything we are currently lacking.
Shooting, ball handling, expierience(Rowsey).
Solid shooting, versatility and wing size(Hauser).
It would be a great team. I don't think Hank stays though.
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If Ellenson stayed, we'd be good next year. I'd say certainly a tournament team, and maybe even a ranked team for part or most of the season.
But I don't see how we go from being a bubble team this year to a top 10 team next year....with the exact same guys with one more year of experience. I think we are giving one year of experience too much credit.
First, it wouldn't be the exact same team.
Second, good players get better, often much better. I mean, how good were Dekker, Kaminsky and Gasser as freshmen? Did they get better? Did Diener get better? And so on and so on and so on and so on. Most good, hard-working players improve significantly.
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I would pay for personal valet for HE to stay another year. MU would be tough to beat if he were to come back for another year.
NCAA violation?
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not this topic again
https://www.youtube.com/v/xMaE6toi4mk
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In Matty V's postgame notes, there was this little nugget:
Wojciechowski on Henry Ellenson (Wojciechowski is asked about Ellenson after nearly every game by the opposing team's media and always talks about his high ceiling, toughness, preparedness, incredible work ethic, love of the game, etc. Tonight he did the same but also used the words below):
"He's a kid who's unpacked his bags. He loves Marquette, he loves being around our team and he's really dedicated to the game."
I hope unpacked his bags means what I think it means :-)
Funny he said it in Providence. Could mean he liked it so much that he wants to transfer there. Would not read too much into Wojo's coach speak.
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Funny he said it in Providence. Could mean he liked it so much that he wants to transfer there.
Henry-shima?
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I'd say Ellenson's ceiling is about the same as Doug McDermott's.
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HE is a great player for us...but I'm missing something every NBA scout sees. His mid-range game is nice, but he struggles from deep and struggles to get to the rim. I'm also not sure who he guards at that level? I get that the NBA drafts for potential, but HE has a long way to go IMHO. I say take the $...but think a few years of college would do his game well.
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I was hoping from the title of the thread that Scoop had started another letter writing campaign, and Wojo was going off Lada-like. Color me disappointed
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HE is a great player for us...but I'm missing something every NBA scout sees. His mid-range game is nice, but he struggles from deep and struggles to get to the rim. I'm also not sure who he guards at that level? I get that the NBA drafts for potential, but HE has a long way to go IMHO. I say take the $...but think a few years of college would do his game well.
...which is probably why you're not an NBA scout. You're looking through a different lens. Most 18 year old kids have a long way to go. HE is no exception.
To those that say 'well, it sure would be cool to continue playing with his older brother'... if I'm Wally, there is not a chance in hell I'm letting him pass up guaranteed, grade A, once in a lifetime first round cheese.
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Henry-shima?
Now Wojo is playing mind games with us
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I can't believe it. Wojo just confirmed Hank will be redshirting next season and staying for 5 years at MU. Unbelievable!
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but think a few years of college would do his game well.
I don't understand that. What would it do for his game?
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I don't understand that. What would it do for his game?
Make him an older player.
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There's no cryptic message. Hey, enjoy Henry for as short as he's gonna be here, hey?
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Make him an older player.
I think there is a level of development that can take place at the college level that really benefits certain types of players. Obviously for every Duncan there is a Kobe or Labron. I'd take the $$$$.
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...which is probably why you're not an NBA scout. You're looking through a different lens. Most 18 year old kids have a long way to go. HE is no exception.
To those that say 'well, it sure would be cool to continue playing with his older brother'... if I'm Wally, there is not a chance in hell I'm letting him pass up guaranteed, grade A, once in a lifetime first round cheese.
I get the lens. I'm not seeing the potential...don't see the athleticism of a garnett or durant. Don't see a lights out shooting ability. I look at what jabari did as a freshman...and I get he's not projected at that level...just not seeing how his game translates to the league. Haven't heard any comparisons to nba'ers that make sense to me. Maybe a Dirk type player? Obviously hope like hell that I'm wrong and he becomes another Wade for MU.
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There's no cryptic message. Hey, enjoy Henry for as short as he's gonna be here, hey?
You pulling his teeth too, mo'la?
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If Henry stays, our floor is the Elite 8.
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Amazing the creds you get for a block...HE needs to hit some threes and go strong to the hoop....then I'll concede the NBA stuff...right now he's still got too many weak points.
Dont get me wrong, i hope the best....but he has to do it on the floor for multiple games.
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Amazing the creds you get for a block...HE needs to hit some threes and go strong to the hoop....then I'll concede the NBA stuff...right now he's still got too many weak points.
Dont get me wrong, i hope the best....but he has to do it on the floor for multiple games.
Danny Ainge wasn't there to look at the Mache Bro
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HE is a great player for us...but I'm missing something every NBA scout sees. His mid-range game is nice, but he struggles from deep and struggles to get to the rim. I'm also not sure who he guards at that level? I get that the NBA drafts for potential, but HE has a long way to go IMHO. I say take the $...but think a few years of college would do his game well.
Completely agree, which I know, disqualifies us as NBA scouts. I'm eager to change my mind if he's awesome during the next 10+ BE games.
Scouts still have him as a Round 1 guy, so he's gone .. Wally is our best hope to keep him here.
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Amazing the creds you get for a block...HE needs to hit some threes and go strong to the hoop....then I'll concede the NBA stuff...right now he's still got too many weak points.
Dont get me wrong, i hope the best....but he has to do it on the floor for multiple games.
You understand that nobody who is 19 years old, sans Lebron, is or will be ready for the NBA? It is about potential and ceiling, and if you dont think that Henry is not the most skilled guy on the court with the most potential than you are nuts.
FYI: Henry wont stay just because 4 dudes on the Marquette message board said he wasnt ready.
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You understand that nobody who is 19 years old, sans Lebron, is or will be ready for the NBA? It is about potential and ceiling, and if you dont think that Henry is not the most skilled guy on the court with the most potential than you are nuts.
FYI: Henry wont stay just because 4 dudes on the Marquette message board said he wasnt ready.
Durant, Anthony Davis, Garnett, Kobe, Rose, Wall, Porzingis etc etc. Lots of 18/19 year olds come in ready for the league. I don't think Henry will be like any of those guys. I do think he will still go pro this year, regardless of "readiness," and be a high draft pick.
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I think there is a level of development that can take place at the college level that really benefits certain types of players. Obviously for every Duncan there is a Kobe or Labron. I'd take the $$$$.
What's a LaBron?
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You understand that nobody who is 19 years old, sans Lebron, is or will be ready for the NBA? It is about potential and ceiling, and if you dont think that Henry is not the most skilled guy on the court with the most potential than you are nuts.
FYI: Henry wont stay just because 4 dudes on the Marquette message board said he wasnt ready.
He's going to be a first rounder if he decides to go, of course, and probably a lottery pick. He is skilled in that he has excellent hands and handles the ball better than the average guy his size, but its not like you can use him to dribble to beat the press. He is currently not a particularly good shooter and really lacks strength and athleticism (which I really find as weird because he is always described as athletic. Athletic to me means quick and bouncy and Henry is certainly neither of those things). The strength can and will be addressed, and he has a nice stroke so I expect he will be a good shooter, but his lack of athleticism makes me wonder what his NBA ceiling is, because he's going to have trouble guardning anybody at the next level.
What I like most about him is that he seems to have a great instincts. I don't know how you quantify that, but he does. Right now, he does a lot of things technically wrong. He doesn't box out well but he is a still an excellent rebounder because he has a good feel for where the ball is going to come off the rim and he has great hands and always corrals the ball when it is within his reach. As he gets more experience and technically proficient he will just get better at that skill.
What makes it hard for many to see is that a guy like Ben Bentil at Providence looks to me like a better player ina lot of ways right now and is only one year older, but is not remotely as highly regarded for the next level.
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Durant, Anthony Davis, Garnett, Kobe, Rose, Wall, Porzingis etc etc. Lots of 18/19 year olds come in ready for the league. I don't think Henry will be like any of those guys. I do think he will still go pro this year, regardless of "readiness," and be a high draft pick.
That's a fair comparison. Pick a bunch of HOF caliber players and say HE isn't as good.
And Kobe is the only 18 yr old on the list. Half of your list were 20 when they played their first game, not 18/19.
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The NBA is better with playing the long-run game with player development than it was 10-15 years ago. Barring injury, Henry will have a long NBA career for many of the reasons stated above...skills, instinct, body type, etc. He has a good touch on his jump shot - NBA coaches will work on his shot and eventually extend his range. They will work on his footwork. They will get him into a high level S&C environment.
I think people don't understand that one-and-done types don't always come in and dominate the college game. They are oftentimes very athletic...or very skilled...but oftentimes very raw. Henry is *the* best freshman I have seen at Marquette. If he sticks around for another year, I will very surprised but very pleased.
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That's a fair comparison. Pick a bunch of HOF caliber players and say HE isn't as good.
And Kobe is the only 18 yr old on the list. Half of your list were 20 when they played their first game, not 18/19.
Wasn't a comparison, just refuting Kenosha's idea that nobody who is 19 years old comes in ready for the league. Henry will be just fine regardless of when he decides to leave. A long, prosperous NBA career awaits.
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First off, Darko was draft 3rd overall, I think Henry at his current skill set is as good or better with a better ceiling, so he'll go first round no question.
Second, Henry 9 months ago was playing against kids from central and northern Wisconsin, no offense to them but not exactly a competitive crucible that prepares one for the NBA. You have to look at his trajectory this season; as his competition has increased so has his ability.
Third, the dude is averaging a double double both for the full season and conference season. How many players can say that? (no seriously, I'm too lazy to look, how many?) It can't be a lot, the guy can ball.
Fourth, any flaws in his game are coachable. He's got a great mid-range and his long range shot form is good, just hasn't hit much yet. He'll learn footwork and positioning better this season and in the NBA.
Fifth, he averages a double double.
Lastly, I hope he stays, but you go for the money when you can. The only thing that keeps him here is his brother, loving college a lon and/or wanting to win a championship next year. If he stays we should be in the Final Four at a minimum.
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I'm not going to participate in another one and done thread. What I will say is that what I believe Wojo was saying is that Henry takes seriously his responsibility to the team, coaches and university. We saw that at Wisconsin. We saw that against the Friars. Henry accepts his obligation to take this team as far as he possibly can. Next year will take care of itself.
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I'm not going to participate in another one and done thread. What I will say is that what I believe Wojo was saying is that Henry takes seriously his responsibility to the team, coaches and university. We saw that at Wisconsin. We saw that against the Friars. Henry accepts his obligation to take this team as far as he possibly can. Next year will take care of itself.
He says as he participates in said thread
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I went back to 2012 and 2013 drafts and looked for comparisons at PF or in the 6'11" range. Here's what I came up with:
2012
1 Anthony Davis - no comparison!
14 John Henson - good rebounder, can shoot to 12 feet, not super athletic. Played 3 years at NC. Possibly a good comparison
16 Royce White - too may problems. D league now. no comparison
17 Tyler Zeller - 4 years of college, not athletic enough to compete for regular minutes in Boston's frontcourt. More of a center. No comparison
18 Terrence Jones - more of a "load". more athletic. not the same type of player.
19 Andrew Nicholson - now with Orlando. VERY similar college stats in his final year... and not getting much run. good possible comparison
21 Jared Sullinger - a load, with good shot, good moves and footwork for a man his size, but in a different category due to the weight difference
26 Miles Plumlee - more of a center. never could shoot. no comparison.
2013
1 Anthony Bennett - weight problems and other issues - bust. Proof that drafting for potential doesn't always work!
4 Cody Zeller - bigger and heavier, but similar college stats in his 2nd year... possible good comparison. Means HE should stay another year!
13 Kelly Olynyk - bigger, but similar college stats after 3 years, more athletic than HE, and now in a groove with Boston. This is what I see as the upside for Henry if he stays.
In conclusion, if he stays, HE will be a 20-minute worthy NBA player and a fringe starter or 6th man. Could be more of a rebounder like Henson (but Henson plays MUCH better defense, although not a shot blocker) or could be an offense focused stretch 4 like Olynyk who could start for an average team or provide spark for a good team from the bench.
All only after 2-3 years of development!
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He's going to be a first rounder if he decides to go, of course, and probably a lottery pick. He is skilled in that he has excellent hands and handles the ball better than the average guy his size, but its not like you can use him to dribble to beat the press. He is currently not a particularly good shooter and really lacks strength and athleticism (which I really find as weird because he is always described as athletic. Athletic to me means quick and bouncy and Henry is certainly neither of those things). The strength can and will be addressed, and he has a nice stroke so I expect he will be a good shooter, but his lack of athleticism makes me wonder what his NBA ceiling is, because he's going to have trouble guardning anybody at the next level.
What I like most about him is that he seems to have a great instincts. I don't know how you quantify that, but he does. Right now, he does a lot of things technically wrong. He doesn't box out well but he is a still an excellent rebounder because he has a good feel for where the ball is going to come off the rim and he has great hands and always corrals the ball when it is within his reach. As he gets more experience and technically proficient he will just get better at that skill.
What makes it hard for many to see is that a guy like Ben Bentil at Providence looks to me like a better player ina lot of ways right now and is only one year older, but is not remotely as highly regarded for the next level.
Ben Bentil is 6'9 That is the difference.
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Lastly, I hope he stays, but you go for the money when you can. The only thing that keeps him here is his brother, loving college a lon and/or wanting to win a championship next year. If he stays we should be in the Final Four at a minimum.
03 - be it politics, culture or basketball you are probably the most reasonable and well thought out voice on this board. You can't really believe that if HE stays that a FF is our floor next year. If he stays and we advance to the 2nd weekend I'll be ecstatic.
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Henry doesn't exist in a vacuum. His skills/ stats at Marquette have to be compared against other guys coming out too. Here are the stats of the Chad Ford Lottery PF/C this year:
Labissiere- 8.7 PPG, 3.4 RPG
Ellenson- 16.0 PPG, 9.9 RPG
Poeltl- 17.7 PPG, 9.3 RPG
Rabb- 12.7 PPG, 8.6 RPG
I've read scouts think Henry is perfect as a stretch 4 in the NBA. He shoots 75% from the FT line, which I've heard projects well for big men in the NBA FG%.
And I don't know why anybody is arguing with Dish. He knows better than anyone here.
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First, it wouldn't be the exact same team.
Second, good players get better, often much better. I mean, how good were Dekker, Kaminsky and Gasser as freshmen? Did they get better? Did Diener get better? And so on and so on and so on and so on. Most good, hard-working players improve significantly.
Agreed, which is why I said they would be a certain tournament team. They will be better. Getting to the second weekend (Sweet 16) would be a realistic hope, although not a sure bet.
But people thinking we are an automatic Final Four team if HE returns are nuts.
By the way, I'd love to be wrong.
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Nothing is guaranteed in the tournament. But Henry coming back and no other major defections would make us a top 20 regular season team minimum. I think closer to top 10
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Nothing is guaranteed in the tournament. But Henry coming back and no other major defections would make us a top 20 regular season team minimum. I think closer to top 10
I guess that's fair. By the way, you can be a top 20 team and miss the Sweet 16 (which makes sense....only 16 teams get to go).
While its cool to be ranked during the season it means absolutely nothing in terms of tournament success. A ranking in the 20s basically means you should win one game in the tournament.
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Ben Bentil is 6'9 That is the difference.
And while Bentil was a monster offensively, he didn't appear to me to have great hands or ball handling ability.
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03 - be it politics, culture or basketball you are probably the most reasonable and well thought out voice on this board. You can't really believe that if HE stays that a FF is our floor next year. If he stays and we advance to the 2nd weekend I'll be ecstatic.
I must concur. We are a bubble team at best this year. We are not bringing in a top 5 recruiting class next year. Yes, we don't lose anyone and nearly everyone should improve but no way do we go from bubble to MINIMUM a final four team.
Assuming Ellenson returns I think Sweet Sixteen is a reasonable, but difficult goal next season.
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03 - be it politics, culture or basketball you are probably the most reasonable and well thought out voice on this board. You can't really believe that if HE stays that a FF is our floor next year. If he stays and we advance to the 2nd weekend I'll be ecstatic.
The tournament is a crap shoot, you can have a bad game and get bounced but with the talent/experience returning (including HE) plus the new comers we should be a top 10 team and definitely a Final Four should be an expectation. If not with this roster when would we get there?
If we lost in the 2nd weekend I wouldn't be mad, that's the nature of the tournament but we should have high expectations
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I must concur. We are a bubble team at best this year. We are not bringing in a top 5 recruiting class next year. Yes, we don't lose anyone and nearly everyone should improve but no way do we go from bubble to MINIMUM a final four team.
Assuming Ellenson returns I think Sweet Sixteen is a reasonable, but difficult goal next season.
Unless you bring in classes like Kentucky or Duke, who you return is more important than who you bring in.
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Does anyone really believe Wojo is thinking: "How can I drop a coded message to the fanbase to let them know that Henry secretly told me he's staying another season?"
Or is it more likely Wojo is saying Henry is all-in on this particular season, and that's it?
So your saying that Wojo has taken to talking in code to the fans base isn't a logical conclusion? I had better find a new hobby. Cue Beautiful Mind movie sound track.
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I continue to see Henry staying with us his entire four years. He is having a lot of fun right now. The Big East Conference season is very challenging and plenty of competition to keep him improving. Henry does not come from a deprived background so I don't see money as a motivator. Lots of very good players stay all four years. Draymond Green is a prime example.
There is no question he will be drafted if he elected to leave MU. I just believe he will not leave until he has achieved his objectives in college.
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A good reporter would have asked the natural follow up question:
"Did Austin Rivers, Kyrie Irving or Jabari Parker ever unpack their bags?"
Marcus Smart did. ;)
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Agreed, which is why I said they would be a certain tournament team. They will be better. Getting to the second weekend (Sweet 16) would be a realistic hope, although not a sure bet.
But people thinking we are an automatic Final Four team if HE returns are nuts.
By the way, I'd love to be wrong.
Nuts is an understatement.
I would say those people are wearing blue-and-gold colored glasses...staring at a blue-and-gold wall...with blue-and-gold paint in their eyes.
puff, puff, pass, I'm really a badger fan?
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I see what mu03eng is saying about final four being the floor it's kinda like the 08-09 or the 11-12 teams, where we all said "final four is our floor" sure both kinda disappointed because the NCAA tournament is a crap shoot but I think he's talking about the potential of the team not the reality of what will happen.
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I see what mu03eng is saying about final four being the floor it's kinda like the 08-09 or the 11-12 teams, where we all said "final four is our floor" sure both kinda disappointed because the NCAA tournament is a crap shoot but I think he's talking about the potential of the team not the reality of what will happen.
This. Tournament is too chaotic to predict. We will be a team that preseason people look at as a final four contender. We have five freshmen. The biggest jump players make is after their freshmen year. This team will improve immensely
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I see what mu03eng is saying about final four being the floor it's kinda like the 08-09 or the 11-12 teams, where we all said "final four is our floor" sure both kinda disappointed because the NCAA tournament is a crap shoot but I think he's talking about the potential of the team not the reality of what will happen.
That is 100% what I'm saying. Given the landscape and what we know now, if HE returns next year we will have top 10 talent and experience which could/should translate into a deep run into early April....but just like 03 where it took Diener playing like a maniac against Holy Cross and a freshman Novak stepping up again Pitt to get to the Final Four, it's not a guarantee.
If HE is back next year, barring critical injury, I will be disappointed if we don't make the Final Four, but that it isn't a lock we get there.
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Henry Ellenson is up to 4 on Chad Ford's latest draft projection (need to be an Insider)
http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14541016/chad-ford-big-board-40-led-ben-simmons-brandon-ingram-nba-draft-2016
4. Henry Ellenson
Previous rank: No. 6
Marquette
Freshman
Forward/center
Last month I wrote that Ellenson was a hot month away from surpassing Jaylen Brown and Skal Labissiere on our board. I wouldn't say he lit it up over the past month, but his more-than-solid play as a freshman -- combined with major struggles by Brown and Labissiere -- has pushed him past both.
His shaky 3-point shooting (just 26 percent from deep) is a source of concern, but he's stroking the ball from everywhere else on the floor.
"Every time I see him I can't help but see some Kevin Love there," one NBA GM said. "He's probably a better shooter at this stage and I think he's a more willing passer."
With teams emphasizing bigs who can stretch the floor and still protect the rim, he should be very popular on draft night.
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No he was 2nd overall.....http://www.nba.com/history/draft/2003-draft/
First off, Darko was draft 3rd overall, I think Henry at his current skill set is as good or better with a better ceiling, so he'll go first round no question.
Second, Henry 9 months ago was playing against kids from central and northern Wisconsin, no offense to them but not exactly a competitive crucible that prepares one for the NBA. You have to look at his trajectory this season; as his competition has increased so has his ability.
Third, the dude is averaging a double double both for the full season and conference season. How many players can say that? (no seriously, I'm too lazy to look, how many?) It can't be a lot, the guy can ball.
Fourth, any flaws in his game are coachable. He's got a great mid-range and his long range shot form is good, just hasn't hit much yet. He'll learn footwork and positioning better this season and in the NBA.
Fifth, he averages a double double.
Lastly, I hope he stays, but you go for the money when you can. The only thing that keeps him here is his brother, loving college a lon and/or wanting to win a championship next year. If he stays we should be in the Final Four at a minimum.
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Hank unpacked his bags but didn't put them in storage.
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Just saw Wojo driving a Infiniti around the race track in a commercial,doing it for charity.
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"Pay my bills", "Pay my Bills"
Somehow, Dwyane was unable to stay married to a woman who so clearly had his best interests at heart. Go figure.
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I continue to see Henry staying with us his entire four years. He is having a lot of fun right now. The Big East Conference season is very challenging and plenty of competition to keep him improving. Henry does not come from a deprived background so I don't see money as a motivator. Lots of very good players stay all four years. Draymond Green is a prime example.
There is no question he will be drafted if he elected to leave MU. I just believe he will not leave until he has achieved his objectives in college.
He is loving it here right now. He's having the time of his life. It will be the best year of his college career, cause he is gone at the end of the season.
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I continue to see Henry staying with us his entire four years. He is having a lot of fun right now. The Big East Conference season is very challenging and plenty of competition to keep him improving. Henry does not come from a deprived background so I don't see money as a motivator. Lots of very good players stay all four years. Draymond Green is a prime example.
There is no question he will be drafted if he elected to leave MU. I just believe he will not leave until he has achieved his objectives in college.
1. There's a difference between deprived and instant millionaire. I don't think ellenson comes from close that amount of money. I may stay in college if I delayed a middle income salary cause my background is comfortable enough to survive but I'm not passing up millions in a career where your timeline is severely limited.
2. Green is a horrible example. He didn't got pro cause it didn't make sense. He was averaging 3.3 points as a freshman and less than 13 as a junior. He was never a candidate to leave early. And based on my limited knowledge of his personality I would guess he would've left as soon as he was guaranteed for the lottery.
Duncan is probably the last example of a great player sticking around for 3+ years because despite be a top ten pick if he left early. But Duncan is a NBA anomaly.
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1. There's a difference between deprived and instant millionaire. I don't think ellenson comes from close that amount of money. I may stay in college if I delayed a middle income salary cause my background is comfortable enough to survive but I'm not passing up millions in a career where your timeline is severely limited.
2. Green is a horrible example. He didn't got pro cause it didn't make sense. He was averaging 3.3 points as a freshman and less than 13 as a junior. He was never a candidate to leave early. And based on my limited knowledge of his personality I would guess he would've left as soon as he was guaranteed for the lottery.
Duncan is probably the last example of a great player sticking around for 3+ years because despite be a top ten pick if he left early. But Duncan is a NBA anomaly.
If you're not planning to stick around to graduate, I don't see the logic of staying in school for another year if you're going to be a lottery pick this year. I love my brother too, but I'm pretty sure I would not stick around to play ball with him for another 35 games if it would cost me $3M or whatever the number is. I hope Henry stays, but it doesn't seem too likely, does it?
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If you're not planning to stick around to graduate, I don't see the logic of staying in school for another year if you're going to be a lottery pick this year. I love my brother too, but I'm pretty sure I would not stick around to play ball with him for another 35 games if it would cost me $3M or whatever the number is. I hope Henry stays, but it doesn't seem too likely, does it?
I agree. I think he is gone. I actually think its more likely a player stays one extra year compared to staying to graduate. Two main reasons is that there is some value between going from the 8th pick to a top 3 pick in terms of exposure and recognition and they also feel they want to accomplish something like winning a championship or trying to get player of the year.
I totally understand if Henry decides to stay because he likes school, wants to win an award, or win a championship. I just think it is crazy that some would develop better in better. You play more real game minutes in the NBA, more practice times, better coaching, better competition, better health and training programs, etc.
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I agree. I think he is gone. I actually think its more likely a player stays one extra year compared to staying to graduate. Two main reasons is that there is some value between going from the 8th pick to a top 3 pick in terms of exposure and recognition and they also feel they want to accomplish something like winning a championship or trying to get player of the year.
I totally understand if Henry decides to stay because he likes school, wants to win an award, or win a championship. I just think it is crazy that some would develop better in better. You play more real game minutes in the NBA, more practice times, better coaching, better competition, better health and training programs, etc.
No real way to prove better coaching. I mean outside of Popavich and maybe a couple other guys there's no proof that it's better coaching. I mean right now Donovan and Stevens are proof that the NBA thinks highly of college coaches.
In fact of the jobs that both NBA and College coaches are vying for you'd have to give the edge to College coaches because Coach K is the head of USA Basketball with Boeheim being his number 2.
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No real way to prove better coaching. I mean outside of Popavich and maybe a couple other guys there's no proof that it's better coaching. I mean right now Donovan and Stevens are proof that the NBA thinks highly of college coaches.
In fact of the jobs that both NBA and College coaches are vying for you'd have to give the edge to College coaches because Coach K is the head of USA Basketball with Boeheim being his number 2.
NBA coaches are better able to teach NBA ball than college coaches. I don't even think that's debatable. The reason NBA coaches look to college coaches isn't due to their technical acumen, it's due to their ability to relate and communicate to men that age.
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Agreed, which is why I said they would be a certain tournament team. They will be better. Getting to the second weekend (Sweet 16) would be a realistic hope, although not a sure bet.
But people thinking we are an automatic Final Four team if HE returns are nuts.
By the way, I'd love to be wrong.
We are in agreement then. I never, ever said Henry staying would make us a FF team. We'd be ranked, we'd make the tourney and we'd have a chance to have a nice tourney run; those are the only predictions I'd feel comfortable making.
I simply said that even if we had the exact same players, we wouldn't be the exact same team because players and teams tend to improve.
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NBA coaches are better able to teach NBA ball than college coaches. I don't even think that's debatable. The reason NBA coaches look to college coaches isn't due to their technical acumen, it's due to their ability to relate and communicate to men that age.
I'm not sure it's completely fair to compare and say, "Pro coaches are better than college coaches ... period," as some seem to be doing. There are great coaches in both ranks and less-great coaches in both ranks, though there obviously (due to sheer numbers) are far more less-great coaches in college.
One huge difference, I'd argue, goes beyond the head coaches. NBA assistant coaches, in general, are far more accomplished and experienced than college assistant coaches. And it is the assistants who do much -- if not most -- of the actual teaching in both pro and college ball.
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NBA coaches are better able to teach NBA ball than college coaches. I don't even think that's debatable. The reason NBA coaches look to college coaches isn't due to their technical acumen, it's due to their ability to relate and communicate to men that age.
But the measure of coaching acumen isn't teaching NBA ball. College coaches aren't paid to teach NBA ball so this is a false equivalency. Like I said before the only job where NBA and college coaches are both in the running equally is held by a college coach.
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I'm not sure it's completely fair to compare and say, "Pro coaches are better than college coaches ... period," as some seem to be doing. There are great coaches in both ranks and less-great coaches in both ranks, though there obviously (due to sheer numbers) are far more less-great coaches in college.
One huge difference, I'd argue, goes beyond the head coaches. NBA assistant coaches, in general, are far more accomplished and experienced than college assistant coaches. And it is the assistants who do much -- if not most -- of the actual teaching in both pro and college ball.
This is a good point.
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This is a good point.
Thanks.
Plus, NBA assistant coaches are all about coaching all of the time. College assistants spend a significant amount of time recruiting, much of it on the road.
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So, if Henry went out and bought a Powerball ticket and won $1.5B, THEN would he stay another year at MU?
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But the measure of coaching acumen isn't teaching NBA ball. College coaches aren't paid to teach NBA ball so this is a false equivalency. Like I said before the only job where NBA and college coaches are both in the running equally is held by a college coach.
Even that is not necessarily an accurate reflection as the NBA game does not necessarily translate all that great to international basketball. I have no experience with the behind the scenes of NBA but I do have it for the overseas game (Spain) and at the college level and I think the college game is a closer fit (mainly due to how they are officiated. Now with that said, Coach K is a great coach no matter what level, and I am sure Pop would be just as successful as Coach K has been because great coaches will be great no matter what level, so this is really a moot point.
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But the measure of coaching acumen isn't teaching NBA ball. College coaches aren't paid to teach NBA ball so this is a false equivalency.
No it isn't. Henry isn't going to be making a living playing college ball. If he is going to learn to excel at his chosen *profession*, NBA coaches are better suited to teach him how to do that.
Like I said before the only job where NBA and college coaches are both in the running equally is held by a college coach.
Do you think the role of the head coach of USA basketball is anything like the role of a coach that's going to be getting Henry ready for the NBA??? The head coach of USA basketball's primary responsibility is to figure out line ups and manage egos. It really isn't comparable.
One huge difference, I'd argue, goes beyond the head coaches. NBA assistant coaches, in general, are far more accomplished and experienced than college assistant coaches. And it is the assistants who do much -- if not most -- of the actual teaching in both pro and college ball.
Correct. I wasn't limiting my definition of "coaches" to simply head coaches however. (I didn't make myself clear in that regard.)
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Now with that said, Coach K is a great coach no matter what level, and I am sure Pop would be just as successful as Coach K has been because great coaches will be great no matter what level, so this is really a moot point.
Pop will be just as successful because the United States has by far the best basketball talent in the world.
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Pop will be just as successful because the United States has by far the best basketball talent in the world.
True, but we have seen before where even with the best basketball talent in the world the US has not won...2004 is a prime example of that
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No it isn't. Henry isn't going to be making a living playing college ball. If he is going to learn to excel at his chosen *profession*, NBA coaches are better suited to teach him how to do that.
Do you think the role of the head coach of USA basketball is anything like the role of a coach that's going to be getting Henry ready for the NBA??? The head coach of USA basketball's primary responsibility is to figure out line ups and manage egos. It really isn't comparable.
Correct. I wasn't limiting my definition of "coaches" to simply head coaches however. (I didn't make myself clear in that regard.)
I'm not arguing that a certain NBA coach might be better suited for Henry to learn the NBA game. Perhaps you are mistaking my argument here. I'm simply saying that a blanket statement of "the NBA has better coaches" is false in my opinion.
Once again you specifically bring getting Henry ready for the NBA into this and that isn't what I'm arguing. I brought up USA basketball because in my opinion the fact a college coach was chosen over an NBA coach speaks about where each stands. I personally think Henry should leave after this year unless he has always dreamed about a Final Four or playing with his brother.
If you weren't limiting yourself to just head coaches I'd agree with you there, however I maintain that the top of the college coaches are on par with the top of the NBA coaches in their respective games. Similar to the way I would argue Saban or Meyer are as good of coaches as McCarthy or Carroll.
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I'm not arguing that a certain NBA coach might be better suited for Henry to learn the NBA game.
...
Once again you specifically bring getting Henry ready for the NBA into this and that isn't what I'm arguing.
??? That was the whole f*ckin' point of marty's post that YOU quoted.
He said this: "I totally understand if Henry decides to stay because he likes school, wants to win an award, or win a championship. I just think it is crazy that some would develop better in better. You play more real game minutes in the NBA, more practice times, better coaching..."
He was specifically talking about him developing as a player in the NBA. I mean if you are going to bring up something that is completely irrelevant to the point the poster is making, that's all fine and good I guess.
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??? That was the whole f*ckin' point of marty's post that YOU quoted.
He said this: "I totally understand if Henry decides to stay because he likes school, wants to win an award, or win a championship. I just think it is crazy that some would develop better in better. You play more real game minutes in the NBA, more practice times, better coaching..."
He was specifically talking about him developing as a player in the NBA. I mean if you are going to bring up something that is completely irrelevant to the point the poster is making, that's all fine and good I guess.
Woah deep breath guy... you're getting weirdly angry for a calm message board post.
I bolded the "better coaching" line in his post. I was specifically arguing that one part of his post. It was not in a specific context with Henry it was listed a general reason someone would want to head to the NBA early and thus was relavent. I disagree with him and you, are you someone who cannot handle that? I'd hate to be your wife or kids then.
NBA coaches are fired left and right all the time, can you really say that they're better than the college coaches who have to build and sell programs, still do the ego management that NBA coaches do, deal with the Xs and Os, etc? What about 3 years ago when two of the current NBA coaches were in the College game? Was Scott Brooks better than Billy Donovan?
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Woah deep breath guy... you're getting weirdly angry for a calm message board post.
I'm not angry. I'm frustrated that you can't understand what context means.
I bolded the "better coaching" line in his post. I was specifically arguing that one part of his post. It was not in a specific context with Henry it was listed a general reason someone would want to head to the NBA early and thus was relavent.
????? The quote and the topic specifically is about Henry and his readiness for the NBA. ????? The entire mention of "better coaching" was in that regard. I mean, if you are just going to bold random statements and talk about them out of context, that may be amusing for the general reader and all, but it doesn't make much sense.
I disagree with him and you, are you someone who cannot handle that? I'd hate to be your wife or kids then.
My wife and kids have the ability to debate within the context of a discussion. They just don't turn around and make irrelevant points like "hey, the sky isn't blue on Jupiter."
Then again, they haven't been hit in the head dozens of times either. Maybe their comprehension and concentration is better. I don't know...
NBA coaches are fired left and right all the time, can you really say that they're better than the college coaches who have to build and sell programs, still do the ego management that NBA coaches do, deal with the Xs and Os, etc? What about 3 years ago when two of the current NBA coaches were in the College game? Was Scott Brooks better than Billy Donovan?
<sigh>
Seriously, I am pointing it out to you, and you are still doing it.
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I'm not angry. I'm frustrated that you can't understand what context means.
????? The quote and the topic specifically is about Henry and his readiness for the NBA. ????? The entire mention of "better coaching" was in that regard. I mean, if you are just going to bold random statements and talk about them out of context, that may be amusing for the general reader and all, but it doesn't make much sense.
My wife and kids have the ability to debate within the context of a discussion. They just don't turn around and make irrelevant points like "hey, the sky isn't blue on Jupiter."
Then again, they haven't been hit in the head dozens of times either. Maybe their comprehension and concentration is better. I don't know...
Come on Sultan.....I'm with you here, and I understand the frustration. But there is no need for the last part of your post.
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Come on Sultan.....I'm with you here, and I understand the frustration. But there is no need for the last part of your post.
He's the one that made it personal. I am simply responding in kind.
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I'm not angry. I'm frustrated that you can't understand what context means.
????? The quote and the topic specifically is about Henry and his readiness for the NBA. ????? The entire mention of "better coaching" was in that regard. I mean, if you are just going to bold random statements and talk about them out of context, that may be amusing for the general reader and all, but it doesn't make much sense.
My wife and kids have the ability to debate within the context of a discussion. They just don't turn around and make irrelevant points like "hey, the sky isn't blue on Jupiter."
Then again, they haven't been hit in the head dozens of times either. Maybe their comprehension and concentration is better. I don't know...
<sigh>
Seriously, I am pointing it out to you, and you are still doing it.
I can really see that your not angry the all the cursing and passive aggressive statements really back that up.
I don't read that context. He was listing general reasons that the NBA would be better and Henry was an example. If you take out Henry's name and replace it with any other name in the country he'd still have those reasons listed thus I read them to be a blanket statement. If the post said "for Henry's skillset there's better coaching" that would be saying there's better coaching for Henry. Saying "You play more real game minutes in the NBA, more practice times, better coaching, better competition, better health and training programs, etc." That is a general statement as to why someone would leave to the NBA not specific to Henry.
Is this where I am supposed to be ashamed for being an athlete and quite the accomplished one? What have you done in your life in sports? High school sports shrine like Ners? Do you act like a dick to football or hockey players too for the hits they take?
To your last line maybe if you pointed it out without all your crazy anger and "frustration" I'd grasp it better.
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He's the one that made it personal. I am simply responding in kind.
After being cursed at by an angry person.
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I can really see that your not angry the all the cursing and passive aggressive statements really back that up.
I curse constantly. It isn't an indicator of my anger.
I don't read that context. He was listing general reasons that the NBA would be better and Henry was an example. If you take out Henry's name and replace it with any other name in the country he'd still have those reasons listed thus I read them to be a blanket statement. If the post said "for Henry's skillset there's better coaching" that would be saying there's better coaching for Henry. Saying "You play more real game minutes in the NBA, more practice times, better coaching, better competition, better health and training programs, etc." That is a general statement as to why someone would leave to the NBA not specific to Henry.
You still don't get it. Honestly at this point it has become almost whimsical. I will explain it one more time.
Henry (or any other player) is going to be prepared better for the NBA game by NBA coaches than by college coaches.
OK. So do we have that? That doesn't mean that a college coach can't be successful in the NBA. It doesn't mean that and NBA coach can't flame out in college.
Is this where I am supposed to be ashamed for being an athlete and quite the accomplished one? What have you done in your life in sports? High school sports shrine like Ners?
Oh brother...
Do you act like a dick to football or hockey players too for the hits they take?
Only when they back up their nonsensical, out-of-context posts with referencing my wife and kids. Really out of desperation more than anything I think.
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He's the one that made it personal. I am simply responding in kind.
I missed the personal attack on his end. Fair enough.
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I curse constantly. It isn't an indicator of my anger.
You still don't get it. Honestly at this point it has become almost whimsical. I will explain it one more time.
Henry (or any other player) is going to be prepared better for the NBA game by NBA coaches than by college coaches.
OK. So do we have that? That doesn't mean that a college coach can't be successful in the NBA. It doesn't mean that and NBA coach can't flame out in college.
Oh brother...
Only when they back up their nonsensical, out-of-context posts with referencing my wife and kids.
Sorry for misinterpreting that, I generally do not and when I saw that I got defensive.
I'm glad that I'm adding to your whims.
I agree with that point about being better prepared for the NBA game by NBA coaches. Ok? That's not where we veer off. I read the original post as saying that NBA coaches are better than college coaches and I disagree. I agree that they'll all obviously get a player, who's clearly going to the NBA, better ready for the NBA than a college coach would. But not every player is going to the NBA, and because I did not read that statement as directly about Henry, I felt it warranted someone disagreeing.
I agree that college coaches can be successful and visa versa.
Oh brother is a pretty lame response. I guess that means I should be ashamed for being an athlete?
Once again I apologize for that original comment I felt defensive when you started dropping the F bomb and all these ???? and capitalized words. Clearly that's who you are not you conveying anger or anything and I apologize for turning that into a personal argument.
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MUScoop...God help me but I love it so...
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/14hopGnaKQtvgc/200.gif)
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2. Green is a horrible example. He didn't got pro cause it didn't make sense. He was averaging 3.3 points as a freshman and less than 13 as a junior. He was never a candidate to leave early. And based on my limited knowledge of his personality I would guess he would've left as soon as he was guaranteed for the lottery.
Green is an interesting example as he averaged 16/10 his senior year - same as Henry is averaging this year.
Interesting in that Green was seen as a low ceiling player (rightly so) - a sub 6'6" power forward.
No comparison in how they were/are looked at by the NBA - Ellenson as a high lottery pick and Green as an afterthought. If they had played at the same time EVERY GM would have had Henry rated much, much higher.
But experts don't always get it right. I don't expect that now, even one GM sees Henry turning out as good as Draymon.
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Draymond Green on the 76ers ain't chit.
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Thanks.
Plus, NBA assistant coaches are all about coaching all of the time. College assistants spend a significant amount of time recruiting, much of it on the road.
That is the biggest difference I think. A great assistant in college usually means he is a great recruiter.
Looking at the Bucks staff you just see how much experience they have compared to a second tier college program like Marquette (Don't take that as an insult, just realistic we aren't the blue bloods of the nation). The average NBA staff has 1. More experienced coaches and 2. coaches that don't focus on recruiting 50% of the time. Yeah, it's an opinion you get better coaching at the NBA level, but it is a well-backed opinion.
Greg Foster (Assistant for 14 years, former player), Tim Grgurich (former College Head Coach, Defensive specialist, 40 Years of experience), Eric Hughes (ok not much experience), Josh Oppenheimer (Shot doctor, well respected in the league), Joe Prunty (15 years as a pro assistant), Sean Sweeney (Tape guy, moving up quickly)
Steve Wojciechowski Chris Carrawell 3 years as an assistant in the dleague
Stan Johnson
Brett Nelson
Justin Gainey
Travis Diener
Jake Presutti
Tyler Thornton
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I know everyone is interested in what HE does next year but I am more interested in what he does this year. Actually what MU does this year. Whatever he does I hope he makes the right decision from him but my focus is MU not one player who may or may not stay for more than one year.
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Henry Ellenson is up to 4 on Chad Ford's latest draft projection (need to be an Insider)
I hadn't seen this before. Hard to fault him for leaving. Kids going to be a millionaire barring injury.
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I hadn't seen this before. Hard to fault him for leaving. Kids going to be a millionaire barring injury.
He hasn't left yet.
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He hasn't left yet.
BREAKING NEWS
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He gowne.
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One thing a lot of people are ignoring here:
The 2016 draft is extremely weak. The 2017 draft is loaded.
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Spent 20 minutes talking post nova game with member of the staff, mostly about the game and his enjoying MU etc. When talking about the good direction of the program he volunteered simply that "it's too bad Henry will be gone next year." Not even a question.
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Henry Ellenson is not coming back next year.
He should, he's surely not ready for the NBA based on his season so far. Maybe something drastically changes in the 2nd half of the season.
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He should, he's surely not ready for the NBA based on his season so far. Maybe something drastically changes in the 2nd half of the season.
You mean his 3rd leading scoring in arguably the top conference in the country? Or his leading rebounding in arguably the top conference in the country? Or what part of his game isn't ready for the NBA "based on his season so far?"
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One thing a lot of people are ignoring here:
The 2016 draft is extremely weak. The 2017 draft is loaded.
I actually don't think that will be a big factor in his decision, nor do I think it should be. Henry's a 6'11", well built kid who just turned 19 years old and can handle the ball like a point guard and has (inconsistent right now, but he's 19 and has plenty of time to develop it) range out to 20 feet. He's averaging a double double on the season and has NBA scouts and GMs drooling. I think Hank would've been a top 10 pick in last year's draft if he could've been, will be a top 10 pick in this year's draft, and would be a top 10 pick next year if needed.
What I think people are ignoring is that even if his parents make a healthy household income (say $150K, which I doubt they make but let's just say they do), sure they'll live comfortably in Rice Lake, WI. But there's a huge difference between that and Hank making 10x that next year, and being 1 year closer to his 2nd contract, which is what really matters. Plus risking injury and having to go to classes for another year. Oh and reaching the pinnacle of your chosen profession, playing with and against the best of the best at what you do every single night, whether in practice or in games.
He gowne.
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At this point, he can't make a pro three, or guard a pro power forward.
But it won't matter. The potential is there, and it's a weak draft. He's gone.
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To all the tin-hatters who think Henry is staying...what do you do during game broadcasters when the announcers refer to him as a 2016 Lottery Pick?
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I actually don't think that will be a big factor in his decision, nor do I think it should be.
Of course it should be. It makes his draft position higher and will hit free agency with a comparatively weaker group when it all plays out.
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Henry and his family aren't idiots. He's no different than the rest of us. We all went to college to enable us to make a livin'. Took most of us 4+ years. Henry will do that in 1. Bye, bye, ai na?
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Henry is a lottery pick. There is no doubt of that. History overwhelmingly suggests that he will go pro. These things are hard to deny. But unless you have had heard from Henry himself ( you cleaning his teeth 4ever?), you don't know crapt. From everything I've heard, Henry himself hasn't decided.
Do I think he'll stay? Nope. But that's an opinion, not a fact.
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Of course it should be. It makes his draft position higher and will hit free agency with a comparatively weaker group when it all plays out.
I don't think it should influence his decision 1 bit. He's a top 10 pick this year or next year. He would've been last year. You take the money and run regardless of whether the group you're going in with is weak or strong. You worry about the group of players you are competing with for free agency money when you get to that bridge.
If every player in each class from next year and this year flip flopped years other than Henry, he'd be a top 10 pick this year and should be gone. There is no point in waiting around for a "weaker" draft class unless you're in the 20-40 range (the potential difference between first round guaranteed money and no contract at all). When you're top 10 you go as soon as you can.
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I actually don't think that will be a big factor in his decision, nor do I think it should be. Henry's a 6'11", well built kid who just turned 19 years old and can handle the ball like a point guard and has (inconsistent right now, but he's 19 and has plenty of time to develop it) range out to 20 feet. He's averaging a double double on the season and has NBA scouts and GMs drooling. I think Hank would've been a top 10 pick in last year's draft if he could've been, will be a top 10 pick in this year's draft, and would be a top 10 pick next year if needed.
What I think people are ignoring is that even if his parents make a healthy household income (say $150K, which I doubt they make but let's just say they do), sure they'll live comfortably in Rice Lake, WI. But there's a huge difference between that and Hank making 10x that next year, and being 1 year closer to his 2nd contract, which is what really matters. Plus risking injury and having to go to classes for another year. Oh and reaching the pinnacle of your chosen profession, playing with and against the best of the best at what you do every single night, whether in practice or in games.
He gowne.
I agree he's gone (you don't just don't pass up being a lottery pick), but right now I don't consider him well-built, he handles the ball well for a big guy but not remotely close to "like a point guard" and he certainly has not demonstrated that he has range to 20 feet. I keep hearing him described as athletic (he isn't NBA athletic) a great passer (again I don't see it). He doesn't really have a low post game, either. He's not a good defender, as well.
Despite all of the above, he is still very productive and the kid just oozes potential. While he isn't well-built now, he has a great frame and will undoubtedly become much stronger. He doesn't look like a great shooter just yet, but he has a nice mid-range touch, squares up nicely and has solid form and I don't doubt that he will eventually be an excellent shooter. He has the right intangibles (a nose for the ball and he sees the floor well,) but he has to learn (and will, I'm sure) what passes he will and won't be able to make. We didn't do him any favors with the steady diet of cupcakes in the non-con, which allowed him to play very well on his ability alone.
So those of you who say he isn't ready for the NBA right now I tend to agree with you, but he is so close in so many areas that it isn't a stretch at all to see him as a solid NBA regular in a couple years and maybe more than that down the road. All the building blocks are there, and he seems to be a kid with his head on straight.
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I agree he's gone (you don't just don't pass up being a lottery pick), but right now I don't consider him well-built, he handles the ball well for a big guy but not remotely close to "like a point guard" and he certainly has not demonstrated that he has range to 20 feet. I keep hearing him described as athletic (he isn't NBA athletic) a great passer (again I don't see it). He doesn't really have a low post game, either. He's not a good defender, as well.
Despite all of the above, he is still very productive and the kid just oozes potential. While he isn't well-built now, he has a great frame and will undoubtedly become much stronger. He doesn't look like a great shooter just yet, but he has a nice mid-range touch, squares up nicely and has solid form and I don't doubt that he will eventually be an excellent shooter. He has the right intangibles (a nose for the ball and he sees the floor well,) but he has to learn (and will, I'm sure) what passes he will and won't be able to make. We didn't do him any favors with the steady diet of cupcakes in the non-con, which allowed him to play very well on his ability alone.
So those of you who say he isn't ready for the NBA right now I tend to agree with you, but he is so close in so many areas that it isn't a stretch at all to see him as a solid NBA regular in a couple years and maybe more than that down the road. All the building blocks are there, and he seems to be a kid with his head on straight.
We can agree to disagree on a lot of this, but he absolutely has shown range out to 20 feet. Like I said, it has been inconsistent, but he turned 19 years old yesterday and has a lot of time to develop that part of his game. But to say "he certainly has not demonstrated that he has range to 20 feet" is wrong. The college 3 point line is 20 feet 9 inches from the hoop. He has made 14 3 pointers this season. Again, it's inconsistent, but he has shown he has range out to 20 feet. And it's only going to develop further.
You essentially just said that right now he does nothing well besides shoot from the mid range (doesn't shoot well from deep, doesn't have a post game, handles the ball well only compared to big men, isn't a good passer, isn't athletic, isn't physical)...yet he's the 4th highest scorer in the Big East and the leading rebounder in the Big East, arguably the best conference in America. Something's gotta give...
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We can agree to disagree on a lot of this, but he absolutely has shown range out to 20 feet. Like I said, it has been inconsistent, but he turned 19 years old yesterday and has a lot of time to develop that part of his game. But to say "he certainly has not demonstrated that he has range to 20 feet" is wrong. The college 3 point line is 20 feet 9 inches from the hoop. He has made 14 3 pointers this season. Again, it's inconsistent, but he has shown he has range out to 20 feet. And it's only going to develop further.
You essentially just said that right now he does nothing well besides shoot from the mid range (doesn't shoot well from deep, doesn't have a post game, handles the ball well only compared to big men, isn't a good passer, isn't athletic, isn't physical)...yet he's the 4th highest scorer in the Big East and the leading rebounder in the Big East, arguably the best conference in America. Something's gotta give...
I didn't say it in so many words, as I called it a nose for the ball, but the best thing he does right now is that he is a tremendous rebounder. This team is going to miss that more than anything else he does next year. I guess you can say that because he has made some 3 pointers he has demonstrated range out to 20 ft, but frankly, whenever he takes a 3 point shot my initial thought is "No!" and I am surprised if it goes in. The way I look at it, he has not demonstrated that a 20 footer is a good idea for him. Your definition is different from mine, and thats OK.
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We might be lucky that they changed the rule, so you can enter the draft and still withdraw sometime in May. Ellenson will get a good idea where he stands in the draft. What would hurt would be Henry leaving thinking he is a top 10 pick and then turning out he is a late 1st round or second round pick. He should go if he is a top 10 pick.
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He should, he's surely not ready for the NBA based on his season so far. Maybe something drastically changes in the 2nd half of the season.
What do you mean by should? He should do it because it's the best for his long-term prospects? It's saves him the embarrassment of only only getting 20 minutes a game next year on a NBA team despite growing at that level? Or he should stay so you can watch him lead MU to a final four? What about playing inferior talent in college makes someone better?
Just because he isn't "NBA Ready" doesn't mean he will be better off staying at Marquette. You only stay* if you can drastically improve your draft stock or if you are a bubble pick and you are close to a degree to fall back on. Hell, from a player development standpoint D. James should have went after his freshman year. His draft stock was at an all-time high and he would've at least been drafted based on potential. That's an extra three years of income he would have in pocket right now in what is a relatively short shelf-life. That MU degree isn't worth much considering he isn't using it right now and he always would have had the option of getting the degree later on/through summer courses.
*By this I mean as player development. If Henry personally wants to stay another year, he should for a life enjoyment stand point. He probably has an insurance policy so he's a millionaire whether he gets hurt or not.
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We might be lucky that they changed the rule, so you can enter the draft and still withdraw sometime in May. Ellenson will get a good idea where he stands in the draft. What would hurt would be Henry leaving thinking he is a top 10 pick and then turning out he is a late 1st round or second round pick. He should go if he is a top 10 pick.
Let me go out on a limb and say that Henry won't be participating in the combine. It can only hurt his stock.
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Let me go out on a limb and say that Henry won't be participating in the combine. It can only hurt his stock.
Probably only attend to get measured like a lot of guys do now. No need to get out on the floor.
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Henry is a lottery pick. There is no doubt of that. History overwhelmingly suggests that he will go pro. These things are hard to deny. But unless you have had heard from Henry himself ( you cleaning his teeth 4ever?), you don't know crapt. From everything I've heard, Henry himself hasn't decided.
Do I think he'll stay? Nope. But that's an opinion, not a fact.
I'll comment on this in April.
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I'll comment on this in April.
Coming from someone who has actually spoken to Henry, we'll all await your comment.
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One thing a lot of people are ignoring here:
The 2016 draft is extremely weak. The 2017 draft is loaded.
but what about the 2019 draft?
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Yeah, yeah. He gowne, etc.
But I found this interesting. HP does a nice job with NBA stuff, so it was interesting to read their scouting report on Henry. Here's the summary, but it's worth checking out.
Ellenson’s talented, and this is certain. A big his size with the ability to vacuum up rebounds and attack off the dribble is a valuable NBA player, and many of the things he has struggled with this season (defensive positioning, 3-point shooting, decisiveness) will improve as he matures.
Ellenson just turned 19-years-old on Wednesday and is displaying fairly typical freshman traits that will likely improve with time. However, enough of Ellenson’s game is lacking polish that he may actually benefit from staying in school for another season to work on his weaknesses, such as outside shooting and offensive polish, which could make him a more enticing prospect for NBA teams.
Ellenson would be able to contribute more immediately offensively this way, which will be important for his ability to get minutes because defensive development is likely a multi-year project for him. As the season continues on, it will be interesting to see how much more comfortable Ellenson gets on the offensive end, because that could pay large dividends for him regarding his draft position.
http://upsidemotor.com/2016/01/14/henry-ellenson-2016-nba-draft-scouting-report-marquette/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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Yeah. He gowne.
FIFY.
There are very, very, very, very few rookies, especially 19 year old rookies, who understand defensive positioning and have the ability to contribute in a positive way defensively in the NBA. Just about every rookie in the NBA has a multi year process to perfect their defensive production.
Offensively Hank is as polished as they come outside of being able to consistently knock down the perimeter jumper. Once he gets that skill down (and he will) everything else comes that much easier for him.
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Aside from being repetitive, this topic has gotten beyond silly.
If Henry is a lottery pick -- and most believe he will be -- he of course "should" go. Unless, of course, he really loves the Marquette experience and wants to play a second season of college ball.
It really is that simple. I don't know why some try to make it more complicated than that.
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This was the first draft/scouting piece I had seen suggest maybe staying another year, which is why I shared it.
And of course he should go if he's a high lottery pick.
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I've completely stopped thinking about whether Henry stays or goes. Not even a consideration. I would rather just enjoy what he's doing while he's here. I'm treating him like a senior and enjoying watching his season. If he gets the Otule treatment and gets to say an extra year (or two) I'm all for it, but not counting on it. Better to enjoy the present than stress about the uncertain future.
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Yeah, yeah. He gowne, etc.
But I found this interesting. HP does a nice job with NBA stuff, so it was interesting to read their scouting report on Henry. Here's the summary, but it's worth checking out.
Ellenson’s talented, and this is certain. A big his size with the ability to vacuum up rebounds and attack off the dribble is a valuable NBA player, and many of the things he has struggled with this season (defensive positioning, 3-point shooting, decisiveness) will improve as he matures.
Ellenson just turned 19-years-old on Wednesday and is displaying fairly typical freshman traits that will likely improve with time. However, enough of Ellenson’s game is lacking polish that he may actually benefit from staying in school for another season to work on his weaknesses, such as outside shooting and offensive polish, which could make him a more enticing prospect for NBA teams.
Ellenson would be able to contribute more immediately offensively this way, which will be important for his ability to get minutes because defensive development is likely a multi-year project for him. As the season continues on, it will be interesting to see how much more comfortable Ellenson gets on the offensive end, because that could pay large dividends for him regarding his draft position.
http://upsidemotor.com/2016/01/14/henry-ellenson-2016-nba-draft-scouting-report-marquette/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
http://thesixersense.com/author/tdmagnotti/
Is that the author? I've never heard of this site before...so is it a fan content site like B/R used to be?
Why is that guys post any different than one of ours? I'm unfamiliar with the site so I apologize if this guy is a legit reporter and not just a random blogger.
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Vacuum up rebounds? Despite the fact that Henry averages almost 10 rebounds a game he is not an aggressive rebounder. He does not rebound outside of his area. He really does not jump for rebounds. He gets rebounds because of his size and great hands. He loses a lot of rebounds because he is basically flat footed while a smaller player goes more aggressively after the rebound. I like to track Ellenson's rebounds during the game and he can go several minutes without coming close to a rebound. He had eight rebounds with about 10 minutes to go against Villanova and that is what he finished with. He moved into second place last night for MU rebounds by a freshmen. He now has 167 rebounds and has passed in 17 games Key 165, Powell 161, Blankston 160, James and McNeal 140, Mason 138, Copa 134, MacIlvanie 132 and Miller 128. He should pass up Ellis, but it will take another 10 or more games to catch Ellis who had 264 rebounds. Think about Ellis getting 264 rebounds playing next to Maurice Lucas and his Ellis' number is even more amazing. Yes, Ellenson should end up being MU's all-time leading freshmen rebounder, but there is no way I would call him a great rebounder and I think he would get out hustle for almost every rebound in an NBA game.
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Vacuum up rebounds? Despite the fact that Henry averages almost 10 rebounds a game he is not an aggressive rebounder. He does not rebound outside of his area. He really does not jump for rebounds. He gets rebounds because of his size and great hands. He loses a lot of rebounds because he is basically flat footed while a smaller player goes more aggressively after the rebound. I like to track Ellenson's rebounds during the game and he can go several minutes without coming close to a rebound. He had eight rebounds with about 10 minutes to go against Villanova and that is what he finished with. He moved into second place last night for MU rebounds by a freshmen. He now has 167 rebounds and has passed in 17 games Key 165, Powell 161, Blankston 160, James and McNeal 140, Mason 138, Copa 134, MacIlvanie 132 and Miller 128. He should pass up Ellis, but it will take another 10 or more games to catch Ellis who had 264 rebounds. Think about Ellis getting 264 rebounds playing next to Maurice Lucas and his Ellis' number is even more amazing. Yes, Ellenson should end up being MU's all-time leading freshmen rebounder, but there is no way I would call him a great rebounder and I think he would get out hustle for almost every rebound in an NBA game.
You're right. There's no reason the guy (a freshman) isn't leading the Big East (considered one of the most physical conferences in the country) in rebounds. Oh wait...
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You're right. There's no reason the guy (a freshman) isn't leading the Big East (considered one of the most physical conferences in the country) in rebounds. Oh wait...
I am right, if you actually concentrate on how he gets his rebounds. He is a position rebounder and gets them because of his size and hands. Those advantages are gone once he gets to the NBA and he will be playing against players as big as him who actually can jump.
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http://thesixersense.com/author/tdmagnotti/
Is that the author? I've never heard of this site before...so is it a fan content site like B/R used to be?
Why is that guys post any different than one of ours? I'm unfamiliar with the site so I apologize if this guy is a legit reporter and not just a random blogger.
He's no more legit than you or I. He's an Assistant Trainer at Ohio U. That's the extent of his NBA cred.
I could turn this into a Ners routine, but I'll pass.
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I am right, if you actually concentrate on how he gets his rebounds. He is a position rebounder and gets them because of his size and hands. Those advantages are gone once he gets to the NBA and he will be playing against players as big as him who actually can jump.
Have you watched Greg Monroe play?
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He's no more legit than you or I. He's an Assistant Trainer at Ohio U. That's the extent of his NBA cred.
Fair enough. I didn't look into the author, I just know the parent site has produced some good NBA content over the years.